Neverwinter Nights 1 or 2? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Sneak

2009-02-22, 07:18 PM

Ok, before I post my opinion, I feel like I should state that I haven't really played much of NWN2. I own it, but for some reason my computer refuses to run it properly, so I cannot even finish the tutorial level.

That said...NWN1, NWN1, OH GOD, NWN1!

It's really all you need. Well, with expansions, anyway. I still play it.

The original campaign is a good introduction, but it isn't really all that interesting. The next two official campaigns are better, but they're still not really my favorite.

The place that NWN really shines is custom content (http://nwvault.ign.com/). The modules especially, but also portraits, hakpaks, a community expansion pack, etc. It's got a thriving community, even more so than NWN2. That's why I still play NWN.

It also has a toolset, which is used to make modules and is supposedly fairly intuitive and very capable—it doesn't come with the Mac version, so I don't know too much about it, but I do know that it has been used to create some really fantastic modules.

NWN2 also has a toolset for PC, but supposedly that one is so ridiculously complicated that even with the manual you can't make heads nor tails of it.

Like I said, I haven't been able to play much NWN2, but the first is all I really need.

Inhuman Bot

2009-02-22, 08:48 PM

NWN 2 is quite fun, but if your only getting 1, my opinion is to get NWN 1.

The editor is good, and if you get the Diamond edition, Hordes of Underdark, and Kingmaker are pretty fun as well, though ShadowGuard feels unfinished, and Witch's Wake's only has part 1, with nothing else for it.

That said, Pirates of the Sword coast is also quite good.

Tam_OConnor

2009-02-22, 10:42 PM

Buh? Black Isle broke up a while ago. Now, a lot of their folk moved onto Obsidian Entertainment, but clearly they lost the person who kept them on schedule.

That aside: NWN 1! For the love of all that is whole under the sun! I'm begging you!

Storywise, neither are great. If you want a good story, buy Planescape: Torment? If you're fixed on the NWN series, though... NWN has a tremendously impressive series of unofficial modules: Shadowlords, Dreamcatcher and Demon. Though I can't comment on the Storm of Zehir expansion, both the original campaign and the Mask of the Betrayer were...hampered, shall we say, by the weakness of the NPCs.

Let's run through the list, eh? (Omitting spoilers) An alignment-flipped Korgan, Imoen with less charm, a whiny Jaheira, Edwin without the backstory, an unfunny Jan, Keldorn without the warmth, a snarky Xan, a more naive Aerie, a more abrasive Valygar, an emotionless Viconia and Irenicus. And that's just the original campaign. MotB was better, but still...

Erloas

2009-02-22, 10:59 PM

Well I haven't played NWN 2 yet, but I would say go for 1 for two reasons. First being that you can get NWN1 and all the expansions for like $20 and the second is that NWN2 uses SecureRom.
First is pretty obvious, you get a lot of gametime for $20 and maybe in a few months they'll release a new NWN2 box with the latest expansion bundled too.

As for SecureRom, thats more of a principle sort of thing. Its a bad system that can cause a lot of problems even if it doesn't usually. So I'm just setting an example with my purchasing that I will not buy games with it. Its the same reason I never picked up Bioshock, or Spore. (well among other reasons why I didn't pick them up right away, but at this point I would have if it wasn't for SecureRom)

chiasaur11

2009-02-23, 12:51 AM

Fri

2009-02-23, 01:36 AM

I haven't played the expansion, but in NWN 1 you only got to control your main character (+NPC Henchman). In NWN 2 you got to control a few character, as KOTOR.

WitchSlayer

2009-02-23, 05:22 AM

I have both, I still play NwN1 over 2, although I do occasionally play 2 for the module Lute Hero.

The Evil Thing

2009-02-23, 07:31 AM

If you're a multiplayer kind of guy, I believe NWN1 might suit your tastes (though I haven't personally played multiplayer for either). On the singleplayer side, the start of the OC for NWN1 is considerably less annoying than NWN2's (the "choice" presented, incidentally, seems to be between chaotic stupid or lawful pragmatic, with roleplay options for LAWFUL GOOD and CHAOTIC EVIL).

However, my favourite campaign would be NWN2's expansion MoB, followed by NWN1's HotU. It tries to make up for the rather lame ending for NWN2's OC; I'm wondering a little whether or not that was planned with MoB in mind.

NWN1's SoU is a passable campaign that you might enjoy a little if you love having a squeaky-voiced kobold following you around (he seems to be a polarising character) while NWN2's SoZ is fantastically innovative by comparison but is a little too ambitious and neglects story in favour of designing some brand new mechanics, some of which don't quite work properly. Oddly enough, it resembles a JRPG in some respects.

Acronym guide: :smallwink:
SoU - Shadows of Undrentide
HotU - Hordes of the Underdark
MoB - Mask of the Betrayer
SoZ - Storm over Zehir

Tengu_temp

2009-02-23, 09:30 AM

Both suck when it comes to single player, but NWN2 sucks worse in this regard.

DeathQuaker

2009-02-23, 09:34 AM

Why one or the other? You can get the NWN1 Diamond Box for fairly cheap now, and when you save up your pennies, get NWN2 + Mask of the Betrayer as well. They're both good and are worth your time (with a few caveats).

If I had to pick one, I'd say NWN2 so you can play "Mask of the Betrayer"--best story of all available on these games, IMHO.

A more detailed extrapolation:

Neverwinter Nights:
Pros:

"Hordes of the Underdark" expansion is fantastic
All premium modules, such as "Wyvern Crown of Cormyr" very, very good
Been out for 9 years, so loads and loads of good player-made modules to download and play for free, including Ossian's "Darkness Over Daggerford"
Generally good clean design, good dialogue, can play with or without companions as you prefer, and will run on most machines these days.

Meh:

The Original Campaign (OC) is a decent adventure, but rather vanilla.
You can have only 1 companion in first two official adventures, and 2 in the last, and companion interaction isn't that great. AI isn't much better.

Cons:

Second expansion IMO was slow and a bit dull, and had Deekin in it. (Some love the little kobold scamp; I wished you had the option to kill companions).
Obviously not supported as much any more, seeing as it's an old game.

Neverwinter Nights 2
(Note, I don't have "Storm of Zehir" so that's not included in the analysis)
Pros:

Mask of the Betrayer is one of the best story-based, single player RPGs I have played in a very, very long time. Very involving story, with some very enjoyable companions (but you can also not travel with--or even devour the souls of--said companions).
Good companion interaction in general, with fairly well written dialogue (again, especially in MOTB).
Stronghold scripting/operation in the OC is well done and a lot of fun.
Has a little more dynamic scripting so some more complex events can (more easily) happen.
This is not what you will hear from most people, but I vastly prefer NWN2's toolset over the original; it's got a high learning curve because there's a lot of flexibility with what you can do with it, but there's a lot of flexibility with what you can do with it -- and if a secretary with an English degree and no programming experience apart from some BASIC she learned in high school in 1994 can learn it, I can't think it's that hard. Don't know if OP is interested in toolset, but worth mentioning.

Meh:

The OC has a lot of ups and downs--the brilliant moments are brilliant, but there's also a lot of plot railroading and facepalm moments, and the Companion Influence system needs a lot of improvement (fortunately they did noticeably improve it for MotB). I would say overall that this OC is better than NWN1's OC (but not better than HotU or some of the premium modules).
Companion AI is honestly better than NWN1, but still leaves a lot to be desired.
Newer game, so fewer quality fan-made mods available.
Has a version of SecuROM on it, a rootkit-y bit of copy protection software known to cause problems with some software/hardware configs. (It's not the limited activation version of SecuROM, however).

Cons:

The engine itself is clunky--the GUI and the like are fine, IMO, but the actual resource management and such is AWFUL. My computer falls comfortably within the system reqs and it gets sluggish on my machine (and I have newer, more "advanced" games that run way better than this). A lot of people with good computers have seen performance problems with this game.
"Mysteries of Westgate" still isn't out because Atari are morons.

If you get either game, MAKE SURE YOU PATCH THEM. Both of them desperately need their patches to work properly.

Athaniar

2009-02-23, 11:49 AM

Personally, I prefer the original NWN. Some things it has that the sequel lacks (in no specific order):

*The fact that you aren't thrusted into a pre-set backstory.

*The inventory system.

*Deekin! Yes, I know he's in the sequel, too, but there he's been sized down 50%, runs a market stand, hasn't got nifty red dragon wings, and is naked, for some reason. Demeaning.

*The editor, which is so much easier to use than that of the sequel.

*The stories of both game and expansions.

*The cheat code that allows you to play as any race and monster in the game (The Mighty Black Dragon Barbarian! The Sneaky Kobold Rogue! The Fearsome Chicken Sorcerer!)

*Deekin! Who is a kobold!

*Villainous lizardfolk (in the original story)!

Of course, NWN2 has better graphics and improved character creation, but I do still prefer the original.

Vonriel

2009-02-23, 04:44 PM

Cons:
[LIST]
Second expansion IMO was slow and a bit dull, and had Deekin in it. (Some love the little kobold scamp; I wished you had the option to kill companions).

You can kill companions in HotU, but they don't disappear forever. Their corpse just sits there, waiting for you to resurrect it. Also, if you don't take him with you through the first part, you don't have to use him at all for the rest of the campaign.

Sir_Hobbit

2009-02-23, 05:59 PM

Judging by replies, it seems that just Mask of the Betrayer is what I want: a good, story driven, and diverse RPG. But NWN1 has gotten the crowd endorsement, so I think I'll go with that.

Planescape: Torment was a good suggestion, and I'll have to look into it more closely. I kind of scanned over it, as I've never been a fervent fan of the Planescape universe. Giving it a second look may be in order.

The multiplayer aspect of the NWN games is a fun aside for me, but not the main thing I want, which is a good, meaty RPG. I'm sure I'll have fun dithering around with the editor.

I'll pick up the NWN1 Diamond Set, and maybe NWN2 later, as yes, I'm running low on pennies at the moment. :smalltongue: Planescape: Torment may be coming to a computer near me too, because it does look good. Thanks for the help, guys.

2009-02-24, 06:15 AM

I'm going to swim against the tide here. The NWN2 OC was not anything special but then nor was it the completely forgettable bog-standard fare served up by the original. That campaign was just extremely poor. It was only with the expansions (particularly HotU) that the premise of the game was realised and we actually got a memorable plot and NPC. Graphics/mechanics-wise the game is eight years old and it shows. Customisable content could be a selling point but truth be told I found 90% of the offerings to be mediocre at best

NWN2 is, for the most part, nothing particularly outstanding but MotB is an excellent expansion. Well written dialogue, deep plot, fascinating NPCs... its the closest I've seen to a sequel for Planescape*. Honestly I don't see where all the NWN2 hate comes from. The one area where the original has a clear advantage is in the toolset

*Frankly if you're into roleplaying then I'd just get Planescape. Best RPG ever made in my opinion

SmartAlec

2009-02-24, 06:41 AM

I'm going to swim against the tide here. The NWN2 OC was not anything special but then nor was it the completely forgettable bog-standard fare served up by the original. That campaign was just extremely poor.

Going to have to second this. The NWN1 OC was four chapters of dull MacGuffin hunts with some awful voice acting. By comparison, at least the NWN2 OC is trying to be interesting.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-02-24, 07:06 AM

I find Neverwinter Nights 2 to be a game that wants to be Baldur's Gate so much that it's tiresome while NWN 1 is a game that disapoints because it isn't BG. I couldn't even play the expansion, the controls were so awkward and the fights required such fine tactical control of the spellcasters that it should have been turn based. I don't want to mess around with 20 menus so I can make sure that the mage doesn't blow her highest level spells on the earliest encounters thank you very much.

If you can get the expansions in the same box, buy NWN 1 and play Shadows of Undrentide through to Hordes of the Underdark. Ignore the original campaign. Then play custom content.

Lord of the Helms

2009-02-24, 07:19 AM

Going to have to second this. The NWN1 OC was four chapters of dull MacGuffin hunts with some awful voice acting. By comparison, at least the NWN2 OC is trying to be interesting.

I concur. NWN 1 was a decent but unspectacular adventure with next to no real companion presence (Tomi was the only one who was decent at entertaining me). Gameplay-wise - you only control you main character, and sometimes that just ain't a whole lot of fun, especially if you are playing a fighter-type and combat essentially consists of clicking once and looking on as your only controllable character slowly beats on the enemy. The expansions, on the other hand, were nothing short of fabulous in terms of involvement and story, and as for the companions - well, let's just say that I was one of the players who gave a manly fanboy squee when he saw that Deekin made an appearance in NWN 2. NWN 2 - it's not fantastic in all parts, story-wise, but it does a very good effort nontheless, and the characters are almost all much more involving and intrigueing than anyone except Deekin was in the first game :smallsmile:. I often brooded for ages on how to set up my party not because I was trying to optimize it for combat (frankly, any set-up with at least two meat shields will be fine in every situation except maybe that one fight against the ancient Red Dragon) but because I was having a hard time deciding who would be the most fun to have, personalitywise

On the other hand: Custom content. Holy almighty Dio on Earth, the custom content! Absurdly fabulous adventures of all kinds, from goofy affectionate parody (Penultima) to Heroic adventure (Claw Chronicles) to the dramatic roleplaying-heavies (Shadowlords/Dreamcatcher/Demon) to the bizarre terror of... actually, I forgot the name, but something with a haunted inn where everything has gone horribly wrong. And the gaming content, from awesometastic asian combat animations to the content Juggernaut that is the Players Resource Consortium, which basically added every class, feat, spell and race ever to be found in any sourcebook, houseruled in a PnP session or hastily scribbled on handkerchiefs during lunchbreak.

So I say, take a third option: Get both of them, plus Planescape Torment while you're at it, go download custom content for the next week and don't leave your house till 2012 :smallwink:

DeathQuaker

2009-02-24, 08:05 AM

I couldn't even play the expansion, the controls were so awkward and the fights required such fine tactical control of the spellcasters that it should have been turn based.

Turning off the AI and pressing spacebar to pause the combat while I picked their spells worked for me (much as it did all the way back to Baldur's Gate).

I don't want to mess around with 20 menus so I can make sure that the mage doesn't blow her highest level spells on the earliest encounters thank you very much.

Are you talking about NWN1 or NWN2? In NWN2, shutting off the AI or turning off automatic casting (one single handy behavior menu) and then casting spells from the quickcast menu (a second menu) is not "20 menus." I had no trouble in the expansion, and I played a very heavily caster party. Which may just be a difference in our play-styles, but honestly, it's the first time I've heard that particular complaint and I wonder where it's coming from.

Perhaps, technically, there's a third menu in there if you want to open your spellbook to drag spells to the quick-action bar at the bottom of the screen. Which takes some time, but then the whole point is you now have quick access via the action bar.

You do have to then choose every spell your caster casts if you don't ever want to turn the AI back on, but in a game like that that can get quite tactical, I don't mind that.

NWN1 OTOH did have those obnoxious nesting radial menus that always took me five minutes to find the command I was looking for, only to disappear as soon as I found what I was looking for because I wiggled my hand funny---but then again, at least once you got there (and if you didn't accidentally make the button disappear before you used it), you could set the command to the quickbar.

If you can get the expansions in the same box, buy NWN 1 and play Shadows of Undrentide through to Hordes of the Underdark. Ignore the original campaign. Then play custom content.

Not bad advice. OTOH, the OC might be worth going through at least the tutorial levels to get a hang of the controls.

Z-dan

2009-02-24, 08:05 AM

I preferred NWN2 to 1... Sure, I enjoyed 1 and got a fairly decent way through before I got bored- but the fact is that I did get bored.
In 2 on the other hand, I'm a sucker for spoken dialogue and prettiness :smallbiggrin: plus there's the variety of characters (all brilliant in their own rights, apart from possibly the paladin), a pretty decent story, and creating your own keep. Then there's the much wider variety of options (you can actually be something between lawful good and chaotic evil!). And the evil ending bit about Daeghun is just awesome.
Really wasn't keen on mask of the betrayer though, and haven't played zehir or the NWN1 expansions.

Cainen

2009-02-24, 11:14 AM

Out of the two, it's a pretty clear-cut decision. NWN1.

Here's (http://nwvault.ign.com/) why. (http://nwn2prc.com/) The engine's less restrictive, it's more supported by its multiplayer community, and it has two hundred times the amount of relevant content up on NWN2.

Archpaladin Zousha

2009-02-24, 11:42 AM

What about people who don't care about custom content and only play it for the single-player campaign?

Athaniar

2009-02-24, 12:18 PM

I find the original NWN campaign to be superior to that of NWN 2. One of many reasons is that your backstory is up to your imagination, not thrust upon you by strange plot points.

Dacia Brabant

2009-02-24, 01:13 PM

Hordes of the Underdark is a lot of fun, more than makes up for the lackluster original campaign for NWN in my opinion. It starts you off at what, level 15 though so you may want to play through Shadows of Undrentide first (technically part 1 of the story, though you can play HotU without it). SoU has its good moments, though it feels unpolished in several spots such as the audio. I haven't yet played the other official modules so I'm not sure how they stack up.

While you may not be looking for custom content there are several community modules that you won't want to miss, several of which have already been mentioned but one must-play, especially if you're a big BG2 fan, is Crimson Tides of Tethyr, part 2 in Alazander's series (part 3, Tyrants of the Moonsea, is good but I'd pass on part 1, Siege of Shadowdale, and just start a level 6 character). I don't want to spoiler anything about it, but for me it was the best single-player story-driven roleplaying experience I've had with that game.

Douglas

2009-02-24, 02:00 PM

While you may not be looking for custom content there are several community modules that you won't want to miss, several of which have already been mentioned but one must-play, especially if you're a big BG2 fan, is Crimson Tides of Tethyr, part 2 in Alazander's series (part 3, Tyrants of the Moonsea, is good but I'd pass on part 1, Siege of Shadowdale, and just start a level 6 character). I don't want to spoiler anything about it, but for me it was the best single-player story-driven roleplaying experience I've had with that game.
Have you tried Tales of Arterra or the Aielund Saga? Those are my two favorites, though I haven't played the series you mentioned.

If you like high level epic play, and particularly if you've finished Hordes of the Underdark and want to continue further with that character, the Sands of Fate trilogy is great for that.

Mushroom Ninja

2009-02-24, 02:17 PM

Go with NWN2. NWN2 single player was passable. Although somewhat cliche, the plot was okay and there was at least a little PC/NPC interaction.

NWN1's plot miserably failed. Also, the completely railroaded setup was amazingly annoying (Yes, even more so than NWN2's railroading). The henchmen were boring and had no meaningful interactions with the PC. Also, the stone of recall (I think that's it, but I can't quite recall the name) was very annoying, both flavor-wise, and functionally.

Note: this is only based on singleplayer with no expantion packs

shadowxknight

2009-02-24, 11:02 PM

Dacia Brabant

2009-02-25, 12:00 AM

Have you tried Tales of Arterra or the Aielund Saga? Those are my two favorites, though I haven't played the series you mentioned.

Nope, but it's been a couple years since I've played with NWN so I'm a little out of the loop, but I went ahead and reinstalled it so I'll check those out, thanks. Gonna do CToT and HotU together with the same character first though I think.

Note: this is only based on singleplayer with no expantion packs

Yeah, if that's your only experience with NWN then I'm not at all surprised you'd feel that way, the original campaign was poor fare and not a good way to introduce people to the franchise. HotU's campaign is worth paying for though I think; it's a bit of a slow start in Undermountain, though it generally captures the sheer randomness of the place, but it really gets going in the Underdark sections (yes, there's way more than just Drow down there), and Chapter 3 is, well, it's not quite to the level of Planescape:Torment but it has some of the same feel to it.

Lord of the Helms

2009-02-25, 01:11 AM

What about people who don't care about custom content and only play it for the single-player campaign?

Then NWN2 squarely beats the first for better party control, much better companion interaction, much better storyline and far better involvement of your character since you are not just some random guy who's not really related to the plot in any way, but rather the plot actually personally relates to you.

On the other hand, the two expansions to NWN can easily go toe to toe with NWN2 campaign-wise, even though there's still the control issue.

Ponce

2009-02-25, 01:40 AM

The original campaigns for both NWN 1 and 2 are pretty bad. Their -expansion- campaigns are much better, however, and in this regard they are both quite good. The real strength of these games lie in their online content, however. Their Persistent World (PW) communities are quite an undertaking. As to which is better... I think I would pick NWN1.

Neithan

2009-02-25, 07:08 AM

For now, go with NWN1: it's a cheap buy and there are already tons of custom content.
If you ever do get sick of it or just feel like trying something new, then consider buying NWN2. But I would recommend for you to wait until all the expansion packs come out and the price of the game drops a little bit. By that time the custom content of the second game will hopefully begin to catch up to the first game.
I don't think so. I worked extensively with custom contend with both NWN and NWN2 and while the NWN-Editor was not flawless, the NWN2-Editor is just teribly bad. I knew a lot of people who were totaly into custom content and modding with NWN and though most of them tried out NWN2, I don't know of any of them who hasn't given up after some very serious and easy to fix bugs have not been fixed a year after the release. There was a lot of assistance by the developers of NWN, but practically none for NWN2.
If the issues have been fixed by know, I think most of the active community members have packed up and left long ago.

DeathQuaker

2009-02-25, 10:22 PM

I don't think so. I worked extensively with custom contend with both NWN and NWN2 and while the NWN-Editor was not flawless, the NWN2-Editor is just teribly bad. I knew a lot of people who were totaly into custom content and modding with NWN and though most of them tried out NWN2, I don't know of any of them who hasn't given up after some very serious and easy to fix bugs have not been fixed a year after the release.

Well, I couldn't make heads or tails of NWN1's toolset and have fun doing stuff in NWN2. Don't have much uploaded 'cept an old crappy contest entry, but that's more my personal flaw of not finishing what I've started than not being able to work with the toolset. And I'll repeat what I said earlier in the thread: I am a secretary with an English degree and the only programming experience was some BASIC I learned back in 1994, so if I can do it, most other folks don't have much of an excuse.

Only thing I have a complaint about is some patches broke what worked in older versions of the toolset.

I think some folks expected "more of same" or were just used to the old interface, and didn't like having to adapt to a new one. Which is fine, certainly they can still make stuff for NWN.

There was a lot of assistance by the developers of NWN, but practically none for NWN2.

:smallconfused: Where did you get that idea? Obsidian has been very helpful--or at least they were back when I was participating at the NWN2 boards (the ones hosted by Bioware, but Obsidian runs the NWN2 forums. Don't go to Atari's boards, you certainly won't get help there). Checking there now, I still see a buncha posts from Rob McGinnis et al, so they still seem to be involved. Especially since the new expansion just came out. They just released a new patch today, so they're definitely supporting the software, even if they don't provide feedback to modders all the time.

If the issues have been fixed by know, I think most of the active community members have packed up and left long ago.

Well, judging from what's been uploaded to the NWN2 Vault (http://nwvault.ign.com), I see 12 new modules (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2ModulesEnglish.List&category_show_all=1&persist_search=c6ebfd58ca3578ea8f45a34ff27c08a8&sort_field=DateSubmitted&sort_dir=desc) uploaded within the last two months.... (*gets distracted* Ooh, neat, an Icewind Dale II remake...)... that ain't bad. Could be better, but looks active enough to me. (And yes, if you look, you'll see more than 12 new things for NWN... I didn't say the NWN1 community wasn't active... :smallsmile:)

NWN2 ain't perfect.... resource crunchin' engine with up-n-down-writing that it has, but it's got a supported, active community, as one only need see by the game's official forums (http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/index.html) and community creation hub (http://nwvault.ign.com).

If you're gonna badmouth a game, at least do it according to the flaws it actually has.

Neithan

2009-02-26, 06:11 AM

I theory, NWN2 offers you to do much more things than you could do in NWN.

But in NWN, the things actually worked. As I said, it's more than a year ago that we stoped trying to get something done in NWN2 and it might have improved, but I think people who really started to hate that early beta build they had to wrestle with back then, are not interested anymore in going back an trying again.

I was pretty much into the german Persistent World Server community of NWN and I think there were about 40 to 50 teams who ran their own server. With NWN2, it's apparently just 6 of them.

DeathQuaker

2009-02-26, 07:52 AM

Ohhhh, now stuff for persistent worlds is a whole different matter... yes, from what I understand, NWN2 took a looooooong time to get its multiplayer stuff working right (Obsidian was working with people to get it right, but there were some software flaws that took them forever to get to the core of and fix). Totally different issue as to whether people are using the toolset or not. NWN2 definitely has the single player folks on board, multiplayer, yes there was definitely some fail there. Don't know what the status of that is these days, but that's because I don't do multiplayer. Like the OP, I'm in it for the the single player experience, for which the point of how it works for PWs and other multiplayer opportunities is completely moot.

Cainen

2009-02-27, 03:08 AM

What about people who don't care about custom content and only play it for the single-player campaign?

They shouldn't be playing either. The entire point of both NWN1 and 2 is its custom content - playing it then ignoring that entirely defeats the point.

Athaniar

2009-02-27, 05:57 AM

and far better involvement of your character since you are not just some random guy who's not really related to the plot in any way, but rather the plot actually personally relates to you.

Isn't it funny how different people have different opinions of the same things? I prefer the "random guy" approach, gives you more room for roleplaying (even though it's a single-player game).

Irate Ranger

2009-02-27, 08:09 PM

If you're looking for good single-player content, get the first game. The campaign and expansions may be mediocre, but the user made modules on the NWN vault are superb.

Here's a link to the hall of fame.
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.HOF

Archpaladin Zousha

2009-02-28, 03:11 AM

They shouldn't be playing either. The entire point of both NWN1 and 2 is its custom content - playing it then ignoring that entirely defeats the point.

But I've played through both of them and found them to be awesome. I don't like downloadable content because I don't trust it. Especially after downloading the OFFICIAL downloadable content for Mass Effect (Bring Down The Sky) has caused the game to crash whenever I try to start it up. :smallmad:

I have a question about NWN2 actually. I'm hoping to buy Storm of Zehir tomorrow and install it. The thing is, I downloaded the most recent patch, which includes SoZ stuff in it. If I install the game after the patch, will that cause problems? I've pondered uninstalling the game completely and reinstalling it to start fresh and new, but I can't seem to find any "Uninstall" button. What should I do? I've already erased my old characters in preparation for this moment.

Any NWN2 players out there that can answer this question?

Ominous

2009-02-28, 03:19 AM

DeathQuaker

2009-02-28, 09:05 AM

But I've played through both of them and found them to be awesome. I don't like downloadable content because I don't trust it. Especially after downloading the OFFICIAL downloadable content for Mass Effect (Bring Down The Sky) has caused the game to crash whenever I try to start it up. :smallmad:

I TOTALLY understand wanting to be cautious, but for the record, most community made DLC is trustworthy--and the easy thing to do as ominous said is go to the vault--read the reviews and ratings. If other users aren't reporting problems, odds are you're not going to have a problem. It's just a matter of doing a mild amount of research before hand (I don't download ANY DLC, official or unofficial, until I've read enough reviews and troubleshooting talk to tell me it's good).

That said, I also agree with you--both NWN and NWN2 have lots of fine official content. The cc is just what makes the game software that much more fun.

But the nice thing about NWN is that it can be different things to different people.... I don't get the competitiveness that I've seen from some players (not you) whose attitudes are like "If you don't play multi (or single) player, you're doing it wrong." The awesome of the game engine is that it supports so many styles of play, so you can do what you want. You should be able to do that without judgment from other players. So if you just want to continue with official content, rock on.

I have a question about NWN2 actually. I'm hoping to buy Storm of Zehir tomorrow and install it. The thing is, I downloaded the most recent patch, which includes SoZ stuff in it. If I install the game after the patch, will that cause problems?

Yes, probably.

I've pondered uninstalling the game completely and reinstalling it to start fresh and new, but I can't seem to find any "Uninstall" button. What should I do? I've already erased my old characters in preparation for this moment.

Go to the NWN2 Boards on Bioware's servers... there should be instructions for how to roll back a patch. Also specifically check the SoZ subforums--odds are there's probably already a discussion of this exact issue.

Douglas

2009-02-28, 10:54 AM

I have a question about NWN2 actually. I'm hoping to buy Storm of Zehir tomorrow and install it. The thing is, I downloaded the most recent patch, which includes SoZ stuff in it. If I install the game after the patch, will that cause problems? I've pondered uninstalling the game completely and reinstalling it to start fresh and new, but I can't seem to find any "Uninstall" button. What should I do? I've already erased my old characters in preparation for this moment.

Any NWN2 players out there that can answer this question?
It shouldn't. In fact, when Mask of the Betrayer came out there would be a problem if you didn't patch before installing the expansion*. I installed SoZ recently and deliberately ran the updater before installing it, and I haven't had any problems.

The safest installation process is, I'm pretty sure, to install the original game first, run the updater as far as it will go, then install the expansion, and then run the updater again. Most people buying the expansion already have the original game and have been playing it for some time, so installing over a fully patched version of the game is almost certainly the most common scenario and the one that would get the most attention from the developers to make sure it works correctly.

* The expansion installer would patch the game engine up to a certain version but did not include any of the patches for the original campaign files up to that point. This meant if you played the original campaign you'd run into certain game-killing bugs, and patching wouldn't fix them because the updater assumed you already had those fixes because your version number was well past the patch that fixed them. I don't know if SoZ has the same problem, but I would assume they learned from their mistake with MotB. Regardless, this particular problem had no effect (I think) on the expansion's campaign, only on if you went back to play the original campaign with the expansion installed.

Archpaladin Zousha

2009-02-28, 11:00 PM

I'm trying to find a file that I need to back up so the voiceovers in MOTB work properly, but I can't seem to find it. It's called VO_X1.zip, and I can't find it in the files.

TakeV

2009-03-07, 12:52 PM

to the bizarre terror of... actually, I forgot the name, but something with a haunted inn where everything has gone horribly wrong.

Elgia (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=2863) and Excrucio (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=25&id=2865) Eternum.

By Stefan "Twoflower" Gagne.

Other notable works of his include The HeX Coda (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=25&id=4078), Penultima (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=25&id=1661), and Sailor Nothing (http://www.pixelscapes.com/sailornothing/).

(I'm a bit of a fan, can't you tell? :P )

Lord of the Helms

2009-03-11, 06:14 AM

Elgia (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=2863) and Excrucio (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=25&id=2865) Eternum.

By Stefan "Twoflower" Gagne.

Other notable works of his include The HeX Coda (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=25&id=4078), Penultima (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=25&id=1661), and Sailor Nothing (http://www.pixelscapes.com/sailornothing/).

(I'm a bit of a fan, can't you tell? :P )

Aaaah, right, that's the one, thanks for the reminder! I remember that the author was also known for other Hall of Fame content, but didn't recall it was the same guy who made Penultima and Penultima Rerolled (Oh the hilarity - maybe why I didn't associate it with Eternum, what with the feel and aesthetic of the modules being polar opposites).

Isn't it funny how different people have different opinions of the same things? I prefer the "random guy" approach, gives you more room for roleplaying (even though it's a single-player game).

Fair enough. What's most important for me is roleplaying the personality I feel is right for my characters, and I can usually do it better if I can see him as personally involved in the plot as in the Baldur's Gate, the NWN expansions or NWN 2.

And I also feel worth reiterating to those more cautious that a LOT of the custom content is very high-quality and, when not 100% bug free, at least won't do any harm to the original game in any way if you don't want it to, especially not the many custom modules which stand completely on their own and offer some brilliant campaigns. The only risks you may run is when combining different sorts of custom content (e.g. some custom content modules had trouble with the PRC's package, which is sad because it's awesomeness cubed with ten shots of win and a thick coating of ownage.), but even then it's rather limited.

As a general rule, if it's in the Hall of Fame, it's bound to be a fairly safe bet technically speaking.

Tensu

2009-03-12, 09:12 AM

My neverwinter nights 2 experianced can be summed up as being forced to include characters I can't stand in my party. it's like the characters where custom-made to **** me off.

I quit the game when a badger kept stealing all my kills. a badger.

if I wanted a badger to steal my kills, I would have selected it as my animal companion.

so furious I was at this kill-stealing badger, I took out my frustration on a nearby small animal. the shock of said compremisation of my usual principels of animal-loving in a blind anger has left me so traumatized that I've become a hopeless shut in.

in summary, Neverwinter Nights 2 ruined my life.

the sad part is I'm not embellishing, exaggerating, or kidding. that's actually what happened:smallfrown:

so I'd go with one.

Tensu

2009-03-12, 09:13 AM

opps, double post. sorry.

Archpaladin Zousha

2009-03-12, 09:19 AM

Was this badger Elanee's companion or Elanee herself? If so, you could just turn off her use of her abilities with her character screen. That way she doesn't summon the badger or wild shape into one. And if you have Storm of Zehir, you can trade her badger for a dienonychus with the Dinosaur Companion feat. Lot better to lose your kill to a dinosaur than to a badger.

Tensu

2009-03-12, 05:22 PM

I did turn her off but that freaking badger just kept going...

I take improved initiative and level up as much as possible before that mission and it still kills things faster than I can.

also, sorry for double post. I'm not entirely sure how that happened. I was busy remembering very stressful times.

oh, and before someone beats me to it:

badgers? BADGERS? WE DON'T NEED NO STINK'N BADGERS!

also, who the heck picks a badger as an animal companion anyway? besides someone obsessed with internet memes.

Eldariel

2009-03-12, 05:31 PM

NWN1 felt really Diablo to me. NWN2 was really much more engaging storywise, but mechanically (ironic, I know) clumsier. Also, there's basically all of 3.0/3.5 available for NWN1 from Player Resource Consortium (http://www.nwn2prc.com/index.php) while NWN2 seems to simply resist such modding. At least you can get a reasonable amount of romances to the game with mods; Baldur's Gate it ain't though.

I'd suggest NWN2. It's got a good storyline, decent mechanics (as soon as you turn off party AI anyways; unfortunately you can't turn off animal companion AI, but them's the breaks) and...well, I'd play it because it feels more like an RPG than hack'n'slash. Choices are a bit sparse. Definitely more so than they should be. That said, at least you aren't quite fighting all the time and there's a bunch of interesting non-fight scenes.

The whole "Rest wherever you want" & "Main character reverts to her Humanoid form for every cutscene"-parts are really, really annoying every now and then (and overall, Wildshape/Polymorph has few annoying things like they turn off your ability bar entirely), but those two actually complement each other nicely. I have no qualms about resting all the time since the game forced me to spend a Wildshape-use to show a cutscene about a dead dwarf and the most obvious trap by the dumbest Orcs ever, and after the fight again to hear a dwarf in my party swear revenge.

Ending is the worst thing ever, but hey, I'll take a good game with a bad ending over a bad game with a good ending any day of the week. No reason I couldn't just ignore the ending and come up with my own, after all.

Tensu: You should always turn off the AI (from Behaviour-tab the "Puppet Mode: ON" for all characters the first thing you get them) for all characters, at least if you're at all like me and really annoyed when they always rush opponents, walk over a few traps and so on (not that NWN2 traps really ever did anything relevant).

That ways they won't summon those ****ers in the first place. If you're really annoyed by the Badger, pick Elanee and shift-rightclick on it - that way you can Unsummon it. That menu is useful all over the place, actually (you can talk to your companions for all sorts of important story stuff and command animal companions&summons and so on).

Tensu

2009-03-12, 07:19 PM

Ending is the worst thing ever, but hey, I'll take a good game with a bad ending over a bad game with a good ending any day of the week. No reason I couldn't just ignore the ending and come up with my own, after all.

every time someone says "good game with a bad ending" I instantly think "lost magic". I'd say that's the worst ending of any game I've beat. if you're wondering:

first off, the road to choose wich ending you get sucks. the big bad evil girl takes two of your friends captive and asks you to surrender. you have two choices 1. I'll never surrender to you! I'll fight you no matter the cost! or 2. I give up. you win. If you choose to never surrender, she kills your friends, and you then instantly surrender and become her mind slave. If you choose to give up, she spares your friends and they talk you into not giving up. now I don't think I need to explain why this is incredibly stupid. especially since the last boss is a pushover compared to the first and I fail to understand why I'm just standing there watching my friends get killed by someone I could easily take. now what's the good ending you ask? well, You lose all your powers, all your minions, your best friend disappears forever, it will be years before civilization recovers, and god hates you. so what's the mind slave ending? you kill all your old mentors and friends who are alive again for no properly explained reason, then you die. wheeeeeee. what's far worse, Is that while I didn't agree with the villain, I felt that the people I was "saving" where all just as evil as she was, if not more so. I could not in any way justify the main character's actions.

tough to top as far as worst ending.

but yeah, I forgot that I kept getting kicked out of wildshape every time I talked to someone or a cutscene came up. that was annoying. esp. if it was a cutscene immediately followed by a battle.

Flickerdart

2009-03-12, 07:40 PM

I'd go with NWN2. While it may lack Time Stop, it does let you get 3 dinosaurs at once (give yourself, Elanee and Bishop the Dinosaur Companion feat and enjoy the hunt). The ability to customize your entire party alone makes NWN2 considerably better, and while Hordes of the Underdark was great, Mask of the Betrayer I found a lot more enjoyable.

On the other hand, Neeshka. Oh gods, Neeshka. Why. Also, there is no Barbarian companion, which sucks, and you get the Cleric way late.

Archpaladin Zousha

2009-03-12, 07:53 PM

What's wrong with Neeshka?

Eldariel

2009-03-12, 08:57 PM

Actually, now that you bring it up, the one thing I really hate about NWN2 is the influence/alignment system. Having to do a ton of evil stuff to compensate for all the choices every single sensible person would do (considered "good" in the game) just to stay neutral is eww. I've actually resorted to the console simply because I don't think I should become Lawful Good just because I have the ability to follow legit orders that are for the best of everyone in a contemplating manner.

As far as the influence-system goes, instead of ever even having the illusion of influencing anyone, you gain influence by telling them all they know and exactly what they want to hear and agreeing with them. Then the changes in character happen off screen apparently "because of your influence" even though you never even gently were allowed to nudge people in the right direction if you want to change them. Like WTF.

Spoilers (and rant):
Take Khelgar for example, you need him to take a bit better disposition towards individuals without jumping at their race and you want him to realize that in Monkhood, the main thing ain't the fighting. How you accomplish that?

Well, you obviously go head-first into every battle and just keep being really combatative. 'cause that'll give him a new perspective into things. Err, wait... But since it gives you influence, suddenly he'll just change after you've picked enough fights. For serial...

Of course, NWN1 ain't much better in this regard.

MeklorIlavator

2009-03-12, 10:06 PM

What's wrong with Neeshka?

This is pretty much my reaction as well. I have no problem with her, and of all the Female character's she's likely the most well adjusted. Personally, I can't stand Quara or the Cleric.

Divine Comedy

2009-03-12, 10:15 PM

To be fair, they're both pretty good games. You should just read some of the story of one and get the one you like better. You'll probably end up getting the other if you enjoy the first one you buy, and then it'll be moot.

Lord of the Helms

2009-03-12, 10:41 PM

This is pretty much my reaction as well. I have no problem with her, and of all the Female character's she's likely the most well adjusted. Personally, I can't stand Quara or the Cleric.

I don't mind her character, but great Dio almighty, her German voice acting is unbearable. Well, and she is kinda useless in fights, while roguery isn't all that shiny either (my Monk's default reaction to traps is "Walk right over them, it's not like they'll actually do anything to me", Locked doors can be bashed in and 90% of locked crates can be opened by a cross-class lock opener).

Btw, yeah, you get a cleric very late, and she's not all that shiny, but you get a Druid very early on, who's much shinier.

Eldariel

2009-03-12, 10:46 PM

I don't mind her character, but great Dio almighty, her German voice acting is unbearable. Well, and she is kinda useless in fights, while roguery isn't all that shiny either (my Monk's default reaction to traps is "Walk right over them, it's not like they'll actually do anything to me", Locked doors can be bashed in and 90% of locked crates can be opened by a cross-class lock opener).

You do know you can steal the traps and make a ton, right? Also, give her Weapon Finesse & TWF and she can dish out decent damage in melee. Of course, she's still a squish so toss a Stoneskin her way.

Archpaladin Zousha

2009-03-12, 10:50 PM

I don't mind her character, but great Dio almighty, her German voice acting is unbearable. Well, and she is kinda useless in fights, while roguery isn't all that shiny either (my Monk's default reaction to traps is "Walk right over them, it's not like they'll actually do anything to me", Locked doors can be bashed in and 90% of locked crates can be opened by a cross-class lock opener).

Btw, yeah, you get a cleric very late, and she's not all that shiny, but you get a Druid very early on, who's much shinier.
Yeah, a druid who openly admits to have been stalking you since you were a kid, and is your only romance option if you're male. How does that work?:smallconfused:

Eldariel

2009-03-12, 10:53 PM

Yeah, a druid who openly admits to have been stalking you since you were a kid, and is your only romance option if you're male. How does that work?:smallconfused:

Ever heard of the Stockholm Syndrome? It's sorta the same. Because it's a roleplaying game, you of course don't have a choice in the matter. You have to play your character's role. 'cause that's how RPGs work. Absolutely.

Tensu

2009-03-13, 02:01 AM

Ever heard of the Stockholm Syndrome? It's sorta the same. Because it's a roleplaying game, you of course don't have a choice in the matter. You have to play your character's role. 'cause that's how RPGs work. Absolutely.

NO! BAD! WRONG!

that's exactly the kind of thinking that sticks me as the one braindead moron in a group of geniuses in half the RPG's I've played and I'm sick of it. that's the kind of thinking that has the "protagonist" constantly taking actions I find morally reprehensible (the most common suspect: DEFYING THE WILL OF GOD) and leaving me powerless to say anything other than "ok". That the kind of thinking that has me agreeing to help the cloaked figure named after the viking deity of chaos and fire even though I know full well I shouldn't trust this guy. RPG's are more than playing a role, THEY ARE CHOOSING a role to play. All too often the aspect of choice is left out. however, without that interaction, I might as well be reading a book. A GOOD RPG SHOULDN'T FORCE YOU TO DO THINGS YOU DON'T WANT TO DO.

pant pant, /rant.

Brother Oni

2009-03-13, 03:19 AM

That is your interpretation of a 'good' role playing game, while others have their own interpretation.

The problem is, while your interpretation makes it more open and free form, it makes it more difficult from a story telling aspect - compare the general storyline of the original NWN official campaign to Mask of the Betrayer for example, or better yet, try making your own story based module in the toolset.

It's like being a DM except you can only predict what the characters choose and not react to them. Make too many allowances for player choices and you end up with a huge module, where a single play through will net you only a fraction of the work you've put into it. Force the plot back on to what you want or making the only character choices matter very little, you get accused of railroading.

I've only played Storms over Zehir for a couple hours, but aside from about 20 minutes of plot, all I've done is go back and forth randomly bashing monsters because I lack the resources to take on more than 2-3 encounters. If I wanted to play that sort of game, I'd just play a MMO (same wafer thin plot but much better facilitated monster bashing).

Ultimately it depends on your view of the 'role' in RPG. Do you regard the role as an extension of yourself, complete with out of game knowledge, or the role as following a character and you're basically along for the ride (your interactive book comment).
I don't mind either, but I do like a proper story I can get my teeth into.

Lord of the Helms

2009-03-13, 05:52 AM

You do know you can steal the traps and make a ton, right? Also, give her Weapon Finesse & TWF and she can dish out decent damage in melee. Of course, she's still a squish so toss a Stoneskin her way.

Not really - they don't bring a lot of cash early on, and later on money becomes pretty much irrelevant between a well-running keep and item crafting. It ends up mostly as annoying micromanagement to try and snatch the traps, and I didn't really care for that.

Yeah, a druid who openly admits to have been stalking you since you were a kid, and is your only romance option if you're male. How does that work?:smallconfused:

While I agree on the lack of romance options (m, I see little wrong with Elanee's: She's sympathetic, helpful from the start, and can't exactly be called a stalker if you never ever even saw or knew of her (b'sides, it was her job to keep an eye on you). Plus, it's not like you have to follow the romance at all.

Eldariel

2009-03-13, 08:26 AM

pant pant, /rant.

I thought I made it rather obvious I was being sarcastic. That's why I added the "'cause that's how RPGs work. Absolutely." to the end, as to enforce that I indeed meant the contrary - had I meant what I said there would be no need for such a large amount of superfluous reinforcement (but I thought the opinion presented in the post is ridiculous enough not to be taken seriously in any case; obviously I was wrong).

But yea, I agree with the lack of romance options. There's a fanmade mod to fix that a bit though. That said, as I already touched on previously, Baldur's Gate it ain't.

Tensu

2009-03-13, 08:52 AM

@ Eldarial: keep in mind I'm used to talking to people who are... less then intelligent on forums. So I've gotten into a bad habit of assuming that when someone says something, that's what they believe, because I've seen people believe some pretty stupid crap. here, let me give you an example:

If I bought a gun, shooting someone with it and killing them would be a valid use of that gun

and on a similar note:

identity theft is a valid use of the internet

those are just the two big ones that come to mind right away, but you see what I mean. to make things worse such comment where usually ended with something to the extent of "'cause that's just the way things work" or "deal with it". And I know they weren't being sarcastic then because they continued to stand by their statements with a shocking degree of muleheadedness. some kind of indication of sarcasm would be infinitely helpful, since it is so hard to denote sarcasm on the internet.

@ Brother Oni: I understand game developers are under restraints, but the different choices need not steer the game down a whole different path, I could be going though the same dungeons in the same order for all I care, just so long as I have reasonable motivation for doing so.

I admit I may have been Metagaming a little, but if a mysterious man wearing a full-body concealing green cloak took into a shack on the side of the road and told you to rob the mayor who has legions of guards and criminal connections and assured you there would be no repercussions, would you listen to him?

Theodoriph

2009-03-14, 05:42 AM

Haha...there was no greater joy in NWN2 than being a wizard and one-shotting Qara when she turned on me before she had a chance to act. God she was annoying.

@OP

NWN2 easily.

Better Plot.
Better Character interaction.
Better Strategy (you can actually control your party).
Better Graphics.
Better Camera (still annoying at times, but much better camera control than NWN1)

As for those saying NWN2 has securo-rom...I guess some people have never heard of No-Cd (I guess they should now be called No-DVD) patches. You can use those to deal with the speed issues caused by securo-rom...there are also ways to eradicate the files securo-rom puts on your computer, though each time you run the game from the cd, I believe it re-installs them, so best to do that after you're using the no-cd patch.

I honestly can't remember the last time I had to insert a cd/dvd to play a game. I'm surprised people still do that. It's so inconvenient. :smalltongue:

As for the expansions, I haven't played HotU, but I've heard it's good. I've played Mask of the Betrayers for NWN2 and I thought it was excellent...except for the ending and the fact that the original campaign in NWN2 had much better character interaction.

P.S.

NWN2 suffers from being PC focused. What I mean is your PC does all the talking. You cannot talk with another character. So there is absolutely no point in you putting points in the social skills of other party members. Other party members can craft though, so you do not need to put points into your own crafting skills. =)

Dihan

2009-03-14, 06:39 AM

I used to religiously play Neverwinter Nights 1 online. I don't play it any more because the server I played on went down. NwN2 has terrible online compared to NwN1.

I didn't like the stories of both games, so online is all I wanted it for really.

Caewil

2009-03-14, 07:22 AM

Haha...there was no greater joy in NWN2 than being a wizard and one-shotting Qara when she turned on me before she had a chance to act. God she was annoying.
Hey, I liked quara! :smallfrown:

Sand was the one who I always found more annoying. My bard/blackguard/duelist had an intelligence score of 20 (suboptimal, I know) and he still talked down to me. It was a pleasure wiping out his will defense with curse song before having Quara hit him with one of her mind-affecting spells. Of course being evil, I betrayed and killed her after that.

Theodoriph

2009-03-14, 07:30 AM

Hey, I liked quara! :smallfrown:

Sand was the one who I always found more annoying. My bard/blackguard/duelist had an intelligence score of 20 (suboptimal, I know) and he still talked down to me. It was a pleasure wiping out his will defense with curse song before having Quara hit him with one of her mind-affecting spells. Of course being evil, I betrayed and killed her after that.

I liked Sand. He was amusing and had a dry wit. Qara was just arrogant! One Maximized Isaac's Greater Missile Storm took her out...I know...it was overkill...but I hated her that much :smallbiggrin:

That spell was filthy. No save allowed and maximized at level 20, it dealt out 240 non-elemental damage...more than enough to pretty much kill anything in the game. Given that if you're fighting multiple creatures, you're generally fighting a bunch of mooks and can let the grunts (re: Khelgar and Neeshka) handle them, it was a much better option than Meteor Swarm and co.

Actually near the end of the game, I rarely had to cast. I had to kill the two black dragons myself because all my party except for Khelgar managed to die while I wasn't paying attention...so Khelgar ran interference while I spelled them to death...but aside from that and the other dragon battle, late game as a wizard...you just have to sit and watch the grunts you've twinked take everything down :smallbiggrin:

I actually mistreated Grobnar the entire game because he annoyed me too...but for some reason, he didn't turn on me. I was most disappointed...I so wanted to smack him upside the head. Would have cost me another missile storm...but man, it would have been worth it. :smallbiggrin:

DeathQuaker

2009-03-14, 07:52 AM

Haha...there was no greater joy in NWN2 than being a wizard and one-shotting Qara when she turned on me before she had a chance to act. God she was annoying.

(I entered spoilery quote into spoiler tags since OP doesn't have the game yet, and might not want to know that

Qara turns on you.

But yes, it was an extreme joy to kill her. My rogue took great satisfaction in slicing her kidneys out with a kukri.

As for those saying NWN2 has securo-rom...I guess some people have never heard of No-Cd (I guess they should now be called No-DVD) patches. You can use those to deal with the speed issues caused by securo-rom...there are also ways to eradicate the files securo-rom puts on your computer, though each time you run the game from the cd, I believe it re-installs them, so best to do that after you're using the no-cd patch.

Yes, you can download the SecuROM uninstaller, run it, then manually edit your registry to remove the remaining files to SecuROM doesn't reinstall itself on its own, then hope you know where to download a trustworthy, non-virused no-cd patch, download it, and hope you never need to insert your install disc again.

The point is that YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO. The point of protesting SecuROM is not to be unaware of the workarounds, the point is that one shouldn't have to go through all that rigamarole to get a game they legitimately purchased to run as intended.

While it's naive to expect a PC game to be fully "plug'n'play" the way, say, old console games were, you still shouldn't have to go through all that just to play a game the way you want to.

And it's also, by the way, naive to assume most PC users are going to know how to or be comfortable with editing your registry (to get rid of SecuROM) or know where to get a no-CD patch. It's one thing to offer some friendly advice ("Hey, why don't you download a no-CD patch at GameCopyWorld?"), another thing to be take on the tone of, "Hey, guess you don't know how to do this, because I'm more awesome than you." The latter is NOT helpful, thanks.

Selrahc

2009-03-14, 08:27 AM

Qara turns on you.

Not necessarily.

Either Sand or Qara will turn on you. Whoever your influence is highest with will join you, the other one will definitely side against you, even if you had a high influence with them as well.
Kind of annoying really.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom

2009-03-14, 11:01 AM

Actually, now that you bring it up, the one thing I really hate about NWN2 is the influence/alignment system. Having to do a ton of evil stuff to compensate for all the choices every single sensible person would do (considered "good" in the game) just to stay neutral is eww. I've actually resorted to the console simply because I don't think I should become Lawful Good just because I have the ability to follow legit orders that are for the best of everyone in a contemplating manner.

As far as the influence-system goes, instead of ever even having the illusion of influencing anyone, you gain influence by telling them all they know and exactly what they want to hear and agreeing with them. Then the changes in character happen off screen apparently "because of your influence" even though you never even gently were allowed to nudge people in the right direction if you want to change them. Like WTF.

I think that the influence system is one of those things that makes the game that much better. I enjoy having that aspect of things. I mean depending on who's currently in your party, you have to watch what you say if you want to keep them with you at the end. That and the keep are two of the things that really make the game fun to me.

In regards to the romance thing, I find it definitely amusing since I ended up in a romance with Elanee...I was playing a half orc barbarian.

Theodoriph

2009-03-14, 11:34 AM

It's one thing to offer some friendly advice ("Hey, why don't you download a no-CD patch at GameCopyWorld?"), another thing to be take on the tone of, "Hey, guess you don't know how to do this, because I'm more awesome than you." The latter is NOT helpful, thanks.

My apologies. I was previously unaware that I was more awesome than you. I shall endeavour to mitigate my awesomeness in the future so as not to offend you. :smalltongue:

Actually, the reason I didn't suggest the former was because I'm not sure links to such sites are permitted on this forum. :smalltongue:

Eldariel

2009-03-14, 03:57 PM

I think that the influence system is one of those things that makes the game that much better. I enjoy having that aspect of things. I mean depending on who's currently in your party, you have to watch what you say if you want to keep them with you at the end. That and the keep are two of the things that really make the game fun to me.

I love the idea of the influence-system, but the fact that you gain influence by telling people precisely what they want to hear rather than...y'know, something that might influence them is kinda annoying.

In regards to the romance thing, I find it definitely amusing since I ended up in a romance with Elanee...I was playing a half orc barbarian.

As said, there's a patch for it. But yeah, you know what would be even funnier? Be a Duergar. A Duergar...Wizard. She'll still have the hots for you :P

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom

2009-03-14, 04:01 PM

I love the idea of the influence-system, but the fact that you gain influence by telling people precisely what they want to hear rather than...y'know, something that might influence them is kinda annoying.

But that's not really a product of the game itself per se. It stems more from the black and white alignment system of D&D. The characters in the game are just reaction based on their alignments, and what you say impacts the relationship based on that.

Dhavaer

2009-03-14, 11:17 PM

Can someone tell me how to use eldritch essences? They don't show up on my quick cast menu or spellbook, so I'm at a loss as to how to select them.

Archpaladin Zousha

2009-03-14, 11:36 PM

Qara turns on you.

But yes, it was an extreme joy to kill her. My rogue took great satisfaction in slicing her kidneys out with a kukri.
She turned on me too. My paladin took equally great satisfaction in separating her head from her shoulders with a Holy Avenger.

Lord of the Helms

2009-03-16, 06:05 AM

She turned on me too. My paladin took equally great satisfaction in separating her head from her shoulders with a Holy Avenger.

I had the same happen to me. I played a monk, so I could run up to her and pummel her to death with my bare hands within 1 round of combat, and there wasn't a damn thing she could do about it. I just love how good monks are in these games, especially against those poor, defenseless arcane casters :smallamused:

Dhavaer

2009-03-16, 06:15 AM

I had the same happen to me. I played a monk, so I could run up to her and pummel her to death with my bare hands within 1 round of combat, and there wasn't a damn thing she could do about it. I just love how good monks are in these games, especially against those poor, defenseless arcane casters :smallamused:

I loved the robe that gave haste in HotU. Like played a bipedal drag racer.

Lord of the Helms

2009-03-16, 09:39 AM

I loved the robe that gave haste in HotU. Like played a bipedal drag racer.

Yep, but at Epic monk speed, that little haste effect is barely relevant anyway :smalltongue:

Graymayre

2009-03-16, 09:47 AM

(NWN2) The Luskan villains in the main campaign always made me laugh, they were like something out of GI-Joe.

All they did during the game:
1. Formulate Scheme
2. Enact scheme using the dumbest henchman still alive
3. Watch that henchman get the crapped kicked out of him/her
4. Scream 'DAMN YOU MAIN CHARACTER AND YOUR CABARET OF SUPERFRIENDS!'

spoilers are fun.

I think Sand was the best character in the game next to Ribsmasher the crazy monk.

Douglas

2009-03-16, 09:51 AM

NWN2 suffers from being PC focused. What I mean is your PC does all the talking. You cannot talk with another character. So there is absolutely no point in you putting points in the social skills of other party members. Other party members can craft though, so you do not need to put points into your own crafting skills. =)
That's fixed in the Storm of Zehir campaign, at least. I think you do need at least some Craft Alchemy skill on your main character to get essence-generating monster parts to drop as loot in the original campaign, though, so you can't quite leave all the crafting skills to the other party members. Not sure about Mask of the Betrayer on that score, but SoZ has no such problem - it has its own entirely different crafting system that doesn't use essences.

Can someone tell me how to use eldritch essences? They don't show up on my quick cast menu or spellbook, so I'm at a loss as to how to select them.
If you just want to use an essence without a blast shape, they should be there. If you want to use both an essence and a shape at the same time, look for the metamagic toggles on the quick cast menu or look at the bottom of the list in your spellbook for metamagiced spells. Note that they all have no spell level adjustment, so the essence'd version of each shape is in the same level tab as the base shape.

Tensu

2009-03-16, 10:06 AM

actually my main problem with the game was that it wasn't PC focused enough. I was expecting the same scenario as NWN1 where I could do it myself. I mean If I wanted their help, I wouldn't have picked druid as my class.

actually I probably still would have but you get the idea.

Douglas

2009-03-16, 12:36 PM

Heh, I actually went through the OC once with a Persistent Spell buffing cleric with every companion set to complete AI off. All they did was follow me around and watch as I slaughtered everything. It was kind of funny sometimes plowing through supposedly tough fights with ease with only one character actually contributing anything.

I was particularly amused when I got to the fight with that Frenzied Berzerker you have to fight in solo combat. Due to the way that sequence is scripted I had to start the fight with no buffs active. As a consequence, I actually did take a few hits before all my AC buffs were up. Then I finished buffing and proceeded to smack him down from full hp to saved-by-deathless-frenzy in about two rounds, then watched as he flailed ineffectually at me while I waited for his frenzy to wear off.

Oh, and I'd refused every offer from a companion to tip the odds for me. He was fighting at full strength and I had no buffs but my own.

Tensu

2009-03-16, 01:25 PM

Douglas

2009-03-16, 02:14 PM

even though I could turn her off I couldn't get rid of her ****ing badger.
Select Elanee, then right-click on the badger and one of the options should be to unsummon it. You have to be controlling her for the option to show up, but it's there. Do that once, and puppet mode (or one of the other AI settings if you don't want that extreme, I'd have to go home and start up the game to check what it's labeled) should prevent her from bringing it back.

Or you could just remove her from the party the first time you leave the Sunken Flagon. In fact, I don't think you are actually required to fill out the party capacity at all. There are sections of the plot where specific characters are required, but not a full party. I kept a full party mainly because I wasn't sure whether the encounter spawning scripts checked your party size and I wanted to be certain I was facing the full complement of enemies.

Tensu

2009-03-16, 08:07 PM

but while I'm doing that, my character will be running around without me controlling him, not to mention summoning his own AC. or is there a way around that?

chiasaur11

2009-03-16, 09:28 PM

Badgers?

We don't need no stinking Badgers!

Yes, it has been said a million times before. Yes, it is dumb.

No, I am not sorry.

Archpaladin Zousha

2009-03-16, 09:34 PM

but while I'm doing that, my character will be running around without me controlling him, not to mention summoning his own AC. or is there a way around that?

The idea is to do it when you're NOT in the middle of a fight. Failing that, you can turn of your character's own abilities the same way you can with Elanee.

Eldariel

2009-03-16, 09:39 PM

but while I'm doing that, my character will be running around without me controlling him, not to mention summoning his own AC. or is there a way around that?

Turn "Puppet Mode" on for everyone. That stops it. Behaviour-tab: "Puppet Mode: On" and press "All". That makes the game much more playable. Alternatively, if you like the crappy AI the game has, you can just unsummon your own AC in the same way afterwards.

But really, the game was unplayable for me until I turned puppet mode on. With it I can actually play tactically without having them rush into every single f*cking Entangle I cast and getting surrounded and having Qara go melee and so on.

Tensu

2009-03-16, 10:39 PM

Badgers?

We don't need no stinking Badgers!

Yes, it has been said a million times before. Yes, it is dumb.

No, I am not sorry.

ahem.:smallmad:

oh, and before someone beats me to it:

badgers? BADGERS? WE DON'T NEED NO STINK'N BADGERS!

by the way, is this made available in the mac version? if it is, I might give the game another try. maybe beating it well help me come to terms with the relentless cainiphobia the game played a direct role in giving me.

speaking of which, what was up with not releasing the editor on the mac version? you where worried that most mac users where running it on bootcamp? bull! when you announced the mac version, mac users help off on buying for it. I doubt anyone ran it on bootcamp, and if they did it was a negligibly small number.

Douglas

2009-03-16, 11:13 PM

Just unsummon the Animal Companion one single time when you are out of combat and, provided you have the AI settings on Elanee set correctly (if you want her to be completely passive and do nothing without orders, puppet mode right at the top does the trick), it will be gone permanently.

AI settings are the right-most tab on each character's character sheet. There is a party-wide AI setting for automatically summoning animal companions and familiars that I think was added in a relatively recent patch.

I have no personal experience with the mac version of the game, but I would be very surprised if it is different in this regard. Just make sure you have it updated to the latest version.

Note: If you have puppet mode turned on, I think you might (this wasn't really consistent IIRC) have to issue a command just to get the party to follow you rather than stand in one spot. The keyboard shortcut for that is, I believe v (for voice), e (for explore?), e (for follow - don't ask me why they picked this letter here).

Philistine

2009-03-16, 11:51 PM

well yeah, and that worked for a little while. but I got fed up when elf chick and her unstoppable badger kept steal all my kills. even though I could turn her off I couldn't get rid of her ****ing badger. besides, it was annoying to have a pack of half-wits following me around all the time. it took all the mystique out of going into unknown territory. if they gave you the option of turning them off, they should have given you the option of not having them join you in the first place.

Are you seriously complaining about "kill stealing" - in a single-player game? What is it you think they're "stealing," anyway? XP? Loot? Or is it just some bizarre psychological hangup of yours which causes you immense distress if a party member other than your PC should happen to deliver the finishing blow to an electronic adversary? It really is a strange and irrational complaint. Also - as several people have pointed out already - even if it did matter, it could have been entirely prevented by a single mouse click... if you'd ever bothered to Read The Effing Manual, that is. No, your big complaint about the game reflects more negatively on you than on the game's developers.

Tensu

2009-03-17, 01:45 AM

Or is it just some bizarre psychological hangup of yours which causes you immense distress if a party member other than your PC should happen to deliver the finishing blow to an electronic adversary?

that's me. OCD is fun:smalltongue:

you should have heard the earful I gave Midna after she stole my victory over Zant. the real reason she destroyed the mirror is she didn't want me coming after her:smalltongue:

and you know, if it was me doing most of the finishing blows, or even most of the attacks, I'd have no problem with it. but for every one enemy I take down, the **** badger kills four. it's ridiculous! I play games to feel like a hero, and getting overshadowed by a badger somehow feels less than heroic.

and the problem with doing anything in a non-combat setting is that she joins during a fight.

it's not that I'm incapable of liking allies, it's just most allies cool enough to be likable are few and far between. you don't fiend good help like Rei and Peco everyday...

Douglas

2009-03-17, 09:58 AM

and the problem with doing anything in a non-combat setting is that she joins during a fight.
If you mean that Elanee keeps summoning it in combat, you need to change her behavior settings. Select Elanee, bring up her character sheet, click on the AI settings/behavior tab at the top, and scroll through the options. I guarantee you there is at least one setting in there that will make her never summon the badger ever again. If you mean that the badger isn't there to be unsummoned out of combat, then just skip that step and go straight to the AI settings. If you have those set right, it will never be summoned in the first place.

If that doesn't work for some bizarre reason, you could always manually summon and immediately unsummon it every time you rest. It can only be summoned 1/dayrest, so she will then be actually unable to summon it in combat. Note: Many area transitions, primarily long trips on the Overland Map, include automatic resting. Or, when she does summon it, hit the space bar to pause the game while you issue the unsummon order, then switch back to control of your main character before unpausing it.

MeklorIlavator

2009-03-17, 02:19 PM

Wait...the badge is stealing you kills? Are you sure? I mean, I think the badger's been able to kill...what...one thing in my games? What class are you that this happens?

Flickerdart

2009-03-17, 02:38 PM

Yeah, Elanee's animal companion is awful, and her own Wildshape choices are annoyingly poor. I don't let her Wildshape until Plant Form becomes available but I do use AI. Just give Qara a crossbow or something.

Tensu

2009-03-17, 04:35 PM

MeklorIlavator

2009-03-17, 04:54 PM

Well, if I remember correctly, there's at least one setting that will toggle whether or not characters summon familars/companions on their own. Set this to "off". Then, if the badger's already summoned, take control of the driud and unsummon it. Now she won't summon it again unless you tell her to.

That's what he's talking about.

Douglas

2009-03-18, 10:23 PM

I don't think you're understanding douglas. the badger is already out when the fight begins.

well, often times I'll his something three or four times, then the badger will hit it once and kill it. it's infuriating.
Ok, so it's already there before the fight begins. Before the fight begins, select Elanee, right-click on the badger (you may have to hold the button down a second or two), and select Unsummon, like so:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7637/unsummon.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6389/unsummoning.jpg

Then, still with Elanee selected, set either Puppet Mode on:
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9554/puppetmode.jpg
Or Ability Usage off:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8059/abilityusage.jpg
Or both.

The badger should never appear again unless you manually summon it.

Tensu

2009-03-19, 10:03 AM

again, I don't think you understand. I can't do anything "before the fight begins" because she's not in my party before the fight begins.

that said, I could probably do it during the fight.

Douglas

2009-03-19, 10:07 AM

Er, what? You're complaining about the one single fight where she joins your party the first time? Why? I can understand a complaint about it happening throughout the entire campaign, which is what I thought you were talking about, but a single battle that serves no purpose other than to introduce her seems a rather trivial thing to complain about.

And yes, you can do it during the fight just fine, especially with pausing. Hit the space bar the instant she shows up, select her, unsummon the badger and change behavior settings, then select your PC again and go.

Tensu

2009-03-19, 06:11 PM

Willis888

2009-03-19, 11:30 PM

Short answer: NWN1

I've patched NWN2 but it still never worked right. Eventually a bug prevented the main quest from continuing - I uninstalled it that day (a week or two after getting it) and have never played again since.

On the other hand, NWN 1 r0x0rs mai b0x0rs for reasons already covered. I had fun modding it (the level design software is easier to use than Office), and there are a large number of quality multiplayer servers with no end of player-made quests to run through.

Lord of the Helms

2009-03-29, 09:34 AM

what part of "Obsessive-Compulsive" are you not getting?

I quite frankly, can't see how it wouldn't bother someone. it's the principle of the thing. the whole "I saved you!" "Ummm... I could have handled it myself. In fact, I would have preferred if you had not-" "Nope! I saved you!" "Look lady, could just go and-" "I'm coming with you!" "What is wrong with you people!? I insult you, I leave you to die, I tell you to leave me alone, and you still follow me! Just one after another! what will it take to convince you people that I don't want your help? All of you go find a ditch to die in and leave me alone!"

you know, that whole feeling.

Once you make it to Neverwinter, you rarely have to take a companion along unless the story demands for it; Only big exception is the final battle, where you can control almost every companion.

And Kill 'Em All, if you're evil :smallamused:

I'm well into Mask of the Betrayer, and loving it. Great roleplaying choices, I like the companions and the new influence system, and my own char (Monk 16 / Cleric 1 / Sacred Fist 9 by now) is doing none too shabby himself. Pure Monk would probably have been more powerful, but the extra options of the Sacred Fist just appeal to me :smallsmile: