OOTS #633 - The Discussion Thread

[Scarlet Knight]

Originally Posted by Koretsu
<<Seriously. Don't do it. Tolkien may have been a great story teller, but his writing itself was atrocious. And I think we can all agree OOTS would not be as fun is 95% of the updates were about them walking to the next gate. >.>

http://thecia.com.au/reviews/l/images/lord-of-the-rings-1-2.jpg

"FOR THE PROFESSOOOR!"

[Kuroji]

You know, I woke up this morning and it occurred to me that even as vengeful as momma dragon might be, there might be an alternative solution which doesn't involve violence, though I doubt that's going to really be likely with the souls that they're giving V to graft to.

A pair of wishes could bring back the disintegrated dragon from a few hundred strips ago... at least, in theory. And it's looking as if V's going to have access to enough power to pull that off. One wish to recreate its remains, and one wish to bring the younger dragon back into those remains, duplicating resurrection.

Then again, it might be possible for V to make a different wish; there's always the matter of DM fiat. 'I wish we hadn't killed that dragon' wouldn't unravel very much of the plot at all, especially if they still had some way to subdue the dragon without killing it. But that might be taking wish a bit far. Time travel's a sticky thing and I've only met one DM that allowed that sort of thing to happen, but it would serve as a get-out-of-jail-free card for V at the cost of creating a minor paradox.

[Dracons]

Aren't Necromancy and Conjuration V's prohibited schools?

[Lord_Butters_I]

Aren't Necromancy and Conjuration V's prohibited schools?Yes, that's why they "compliment [V's] own spellcasting deficits most superbly"

[Dracons]

Assuming he can even use them.

[Porthos]

CharOp
Finally, playing ANY character involves careful planning from the beginning of career. That's not even up for debate, that's how it's done.


You know, since I disagree with this statement pretty strongly (sometimes I map out my characters, sometimes I don't), I have the feeling that you and I have diametrically opposed philosphies when it comes to game style, so I shall bow out now. :smallsmile: Sure, I do a bit of minor optimizing here and there (although the amount of C.O. I engage in really depends on how "meat-grinderish" the world I'm playing in is - evolutionary pressures and all that), but nothing to the degree in which you think is standard for all players.

To put it simply, there is more than one style of playing DnD, even for people who know their way backwards and forwards through the various manuals. Just one look at the various game boards around the net ought to tell you that.

So as to not derail this thread any further, I will simply say: I disagree with how you approach the game, but, as always, if that what appeals to you and what draws you and your friends to it, knock your self out. It just isn't for me.

Or, to put it a slightly different way, I don't seek to "win" DnD, I seek to win the encounters that are placed in front of my character. It may be a subtle difference, and only one of scale. But I think it's an important one. It governs my entire philosophy when it comes to the game.

Cheers. :smallcool:

[factotum]

Assuming he can even use them.

One of the souls that's going to be bound to V's is a sorcerer, so if he can get a benefit from being soul-bound to someone who isn't even the same class as him, I think using spells from his barred schools won't be an issue either.

[Kaytara]

...:smalleek:

That is very, very creepy. The first several panels had a distinctly Disney-ish vibe, what with the evil huge cloaked figures dancing around the indecisive protagonist, surrounding him and looming over him imposingly...

Anyway, my two cents on the matter:

1) While V being their proof-of-concept is likely a benefit of making the deal, it is not necessarily the only benefit. More to the point, these three fiends are aware of the Gates and of the Order's role in this matter. That one of the Order's members finds himself in desperate need of infernal assistance is likely a lucky twist for them, but their readiness to help V certainly isn't a coincidence.

2) Concerning Prak's points, I definitely think that the deal will involve directly controlling Vaarsuvius and not just getting his soul after he dies, for several reasons:
- since they are aware of the Gates, they have no reason to assume that V's soul would still be intact to be collected at the end of this quest.
- they call it a "fair deal". Vaarsuvius' soul fuses with other souls but still remains in control. My interpretation is that the fiends will get a reversal of that - a binding of V's soul and the fiend's, with the fiend being in control.
Aside from that, one relatively high-level elven wizard's soul may not be exceptionally common, but is ultimately like any other. There is no reason for them to consider it especially valuable.
By contrast, several minutes (or hours, or weeks?) of direct control of said spellcaster at a crucial point in a position to change the future of the multiverse? HELL YES.

[Kish]

CharOp
Finally, playing ANY character involves careful planning from the beginning of career. That's not even up for debate, that's how it's done.

The hell? I agree that that statement is not up for debate, because it's too absurd. Characters evolve as a result of what they experience, they don't move along a not-to-be-altered path planned before they ever started adventuring.

As for your particular plan, Porthos is right that it involves a completely passive DM. Encounters 8 Challenge Ratings above you are supposed to be way too much for you, things you don't encounter unless you behave very stupidly (for in-character reasons, thank you), not encounters you seek out even though they're not a source of good treasure because, metagaming, you know killing them will make you more powerful. If you somehow find them and find a way to kill them, the DM is supposed to, by the DMG, analyze how you defeated them and how much of a challenge they actually were, not mindlessly grant you XP like a CRPG.

[malakim2099]

What? The gates are built around tears in the reality encasing the Snarl. Cities/illusions/dungeons/giant tree-friends were built around them to protect the rifts. I wouldn't think you could just *move* them.

Actually

In Start of Darkness, The Dark One's (and thus Redcloak's) plan is to "shift" the gate/tear from the Prime Material Plane to the Celestial plane, and thus blackmail the other gods.

So yeah, Redcloak might intend to use the threat of opening the gate to unleash the Snarl in the heavens as a blackmail tactic... but I suspect the IFCC wants to just open it and rend the heavens to little bitty pieces with the Snarl.

[BillyJimBoBob]

[snippage]I try to play strictly by the Rules-as-Intended, without Godly abilities through loophole exploitation. And banning particular books/items is very often a sign of weak players who just want to strip other players of legitimate options.Oh really? Weak players? Perhaps you meant to say weak GMs? Because I have not played in any game of D&D where the players established the setting and the rules set used. That has always been in the purview of the GM.

First, a brief discussion of your "gambit" of dying while approaching some DC 9 monster and trying your spell casting on them. At 1st level a single attack from one of these monsters will hit you, and will kill you. Frankly, the journey to get to the territory of this monster will most likely kill you.

And now, on to how you get eaten by a Djinn.


Step 1: The Efreeti Gambit

5. Buy a potion of Owl’s Wisdom and a potion of Eagle’s Splendor (300 gp each), pay a Mage capable of Planar Binding (11 lvl Wizard, found in any decent city) 1430 gp to summon an Efreet (Magic Circle against Evil w/diagram, Dimensional Anchor, Planar Binding). By now you should have several times that amount from killing stuff.


Efreeti
[Just the relevant bits]
Special Qualities: Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, plane shift, telepathy 100 ft., vulnerability to cold

Change Shape (Su)
An efreeti can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.

Change Size (Sp)
Twice per day, an efreeti can magically change a creature’s size. This works just like an enlarge person or reduce person spell (the efreeti chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the efreeti.

Skills: Bluff +15, Craft (any one) +14, Concentration +15, Diplomacy +6, Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +17, Listen +15, Move Silently +16, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +14, Spot +15

[Other relevant rules]
Giant Type
A giant is a humanoid-shaped creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size.

Enlarge Person
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one.
A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet.

Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal Creatures
Very large creatures take up more than 1 square.

[/b]Table: Creature Size and Scale[/b]
Size...............Space
Category
Huge................15 ft.

Magic Circle against Evil
Arcane Material Component

A little powdered silver with which you trace a 3-foot diameter circle on the floor (or ground) around the creature to be warded. [Bolds for emphasis]

Ok. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you find a suicidal caster willing to do your casting for mere money. He sets up his diagrammed Magic Circle against Evil, casts his dimensional anchor and summons you an efreet.

Again for the sake of argument we'll assume that you beat the efreet's +7 plus Improved Initiative roll.
You cast Prayer.
The efreet uses his Enlarge Person on himself, becoming a category larger, 15' in fact. The Magic Circle against Evil is now too small to hold him, and it is reduced to being a mere Protection from Evil. You now enjoy a +2 to save against his quickened spell like ability Scorching Ray, and die a horrible, burning death.

Congratulations!

This is a particularly pathetic attempt. The efreet is perfectly capable of simply Intimidating you (17 base, +8 for 2 size categories larger, +2 for Bluff) into being so friendly and cooperative that you'll gladly break the circle for him. And it lasts as long as you are in his presence, so he'll ask you to stay close by. And he can do this to the mage as well.

Your point 7:
Suggest to Efreet a very nice deal – 2 wishes for you and 1 for him, plus he is released from the binding circle. Otherwise he’s killed in the circle by your undead minions' ranged weapons (he can’t counterattack because of the diagram). Any dislike for servitude should be negated since you’re a cleric of Tharizdun – who is worshipped by Efreeti as per MM IV - and will use the Wishes to further the cause of your god.Has a couple flaws as well. Efreet can not grant themselves wishes. And it's the GM who decides if the efreet so enjoyed being summoned and dominated that he'll forgo any revenge, not you. Were your character magically compelled to obey a cleric of your character's deity I'm sure you'd like to make that call for yourself. But since we never get this far, it's a moot point.

[Hatu]

That is very, very creepy. The first several panels had a distinctly Disney-ish vibe, what with the evil huge cloaked figures dancing around the indecisive protagonist, surrounding him and looming over him imposingly...


Yes, I got that same vibe. Actually, what it really reminds me of is the deal between MacBeth and Demona in Gargoyles. I'm not sure if it's intentional, but I like it.

On an unrelated note, I see we once again get an additional "half page" as part of the comic. I wonder if that's a specific literary device, or if the Giant doesn't want to delay the new comics until a massive multi-page spectacular could be finished.

-H

[Porthos]

First, a brief discussion of your "gambit" of dying while approaching some DC 9 monster and trying your spell casting on them.

<I know I said I was dropping out but "they keep dragging me back in" :smalltongue:>

You have far more patience than I. I pretty much stopped thinking about his little plan at about time he said he was going to solo a CR 9 encounter*. :smalltongue: Anything else wasn't worth my time.

Though I do wonder how/where he's going to get all the gold to finance his mission of wish abusing. Sure I read the pithy statement of saying he should have "more than enough by now". Funnily enough, though, the amount of gp one has seems to be directly in control of the DM. Besides, I've found that gp can disappear in a hurry as one uses it to buy scrolls of healing/various other pieces of equipment that ones needs to use to survive/upgrade ones stuff. Smells like a bit of a handwave, actually. Along with the finding the wizard to summon the initial Efreet.

Speaking of which, any build which is reliant on wish abusing... Well, I just wish (no pun intended) there was some sort of Godwins Law about it out there. I mean I really do think that any build that is reliant on wish abusing really should be an auto-fail when it comes to purposes of discussion. Sure you might be able to find a DM out there willing to do it. But we all know that's not how the game was intended to be played. So, yeah, I'm pretty much of the opinion of Wish Abusing Equals You Lose The Argument/There's No Point To Discussing Things Any More.

Hmmm. Maybe with a bit of thought, I can make this into a viable Law. Must give it some thought. :smallamused:

Anyway, I'm going to try my darndest to stay out of the rest of this part of the discussion. Probably won't succeed (darn those high DC Will checks), but at least I'm gonna try. :smalltongue:

* NOTE: Kish is exactly right, BTW. If you can easily solo a CR 9 monster as a 1st level character, then by definition, it really wasn't a CR 9 monster, at least as far as the character in question is concerned. Or to put it another way, if a character can easily solo a CR 9 monster, then, again by definition, the character who is trying to pull off this trick ISN'T at a CR 1 rating. More like CR 7 or 8, at least when it comes to this exact set of circumstances, no matter what the level says on the character sheet. Or the monster wasn't as, you know, challenging, and therefore should be at something like CR 2 or 3. Same difference either way, really.

So no easy xp for you, I'm afraid. :smallamused:

[filiecs]

Where do I see myself in five million years?

Probably dead, with pretty flowers on my grave, digging thier roots into my rotting flesh for a source of nutrition.

[Silverraptor]

Where do I see myself in five million years?

Probably dead, with pretty flowers on my grave, digging thier roots into my rotting flesh for a source of nutrition.

Wouldn't your flesh really be top soil and your bones cracked with the roots of an ancient tree drinking up the marrow?

[Zanaril]

By then your gravestone will be bits of grit in the soil, your body would have been completely broken down without a trace left, and all the flowers would have mutated into hideous, fifty-foot, moving, animal-eating monters due to the radiation from the nuclear war that killed all the humans off 4999,999 years ago.

[Silverraptor]

By then your gravestone will be bits of grit in the soil, your body would have been completely broken down without a trace left, and all the flowers would have mutated into hideous, fifty-foot, moving, animal-eating monters due to the radiation from the nuclear war that killed all the humans off 4999,999 years ago.

How do "YOU" know we all have only 1 year left to live? Are you trying to tell us something?

[Marduk Prophet]

Actually

In Start of Darkness, The Dark One's (and thus Redcloak's) plan is to "shift" the gate/tear from the Prime Material Plane to the Celestial plane, and thus blackmail the other gods.

So yeah, Redcloak might intend to use the threat of opening the gate to unleash the Snarl in the heavens as a blackmail tactic... but I suspect the IFCC wants to just open it and rend the heavens to little bitty pieces with the Snarl.

Mhhh, I have not yet read Start of Darkness. This would clear up a bit on my side, for sure. However, I can't help but wonder if said patron would know that the tear could actually be moved. I suppose that would explain the experimentation Redcloak wants to do, while failing promptly thanks to Xykon's blunders.

[Silverraptor]

Mhhh, I have not yet read Start of Darkness. This would clear up a bit on my side, for sure. However, I can't help but wonder if said patron would know that the tear could actually be moved. I suppose that would explain the experimentation Redcloak wants to do, while failing promptly thanks to Xykon's blunders.


In SoD, I really started to support Redcloak in his quest. Who doesn't want their people an equal chance to everyone else to better themselves. Like Redcloak said. Even if he accidentally released the snarl that destroys the world, The Dark One will make sure that goblins will be reborn with better everything.

[RecklessFable]

Isn't this deal essentially a negative 300% rate of return?

For one minute used, I lose 1 minute to each alignment?

And yeah, then there is timestop... and that whole time flowing differently between planes...

[Zanaril]

How do "YOU" know we all have only 1 year left to live? Are you trying to tell us something?

I looked forward through time and read next year's newspaper the day after.

Obviously.

[David Argall]

Really? Name one.
Too lazy to look them up, but note that Atonement reverses magical alignment change. And your alignment is part of your soul. So yes, D&D allows soul control.



Oh really? Weak players? Perhaps you meant to say weak GMs? Because I have not played in any game of D&D where the players established the setting and the rules set used. That has always been in the purview of the GM.

Now our player here is really looking for a really friendly DM who will just let him run wild, but his basic position is valid, that the rules do allow one to do really absurd things with a little study. Of course, most of us deem that a flaw in the rules, not something to celebrate.

[Marduk Prophet]

In SoD, I really started to support Redcloak in his quest. Who doesn't want their people an equal chance to everyone else to better themselves. Like Redcloak said. Even if he accidentally released the snarl that destroys the world, The Dark One will make sure that goblins will be reborn with better everything.


How could the Dark One be so sure though? Being the god-slaughtering entity that the Snarl is, wouldn't the Snarl be just as inclined to destroying the Dark One, thus negating that assurance? If this much is expressed in SoD, just say so and nothing else. I'm sure Rich wouldn't want someone revealing all the plot devices from the released issues.:smallamused:

[Tobimaro]

I too am worried that V is going to be screwed by the fiends. After all, they know all too well about corrupting people. All they have to do is push the right buttons, and watch as the target does the rest.

I hope that V stays strong, but... :smalleek:

[Undead Prince]

The CharOp discussion

First the business.



The efreet uses his Enlarge Person on himself, becoming a category larger, 15' in fact. The Magic Circle against Evil is now too small to hold him, and it is reduced to being a mere Protection from Evil.

"The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly... none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram... the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above."

Becoming a Large creature that occupies 9 squares instead of 1 would definitely disturb the circle. Also, it would probably count as "ability crossing the diagram". So the Efreet can't do it.

For good measure, the cleric can cast Ghoul Glyph on the summoning square, and the Efreet will be paralyzed upon arrival with no save, for enough time to make the Suggestion.


Ok. Let's assume for the sake of argument that you find a suicidal caster willing to do your casting for mere money.

It states in the DMG that NPC wizards offer spells for a fixed price should players require them. Everything is laid out.

As for "suicidal". An 11th level Wizard - afraid of an Efreet? Let's be serious here.


The efreet is perfectly capable of simply Intimidating you (17 base, +8 for 2 size categories larger, +2 for Bluff)

1) The size doesnt work.
2) "Changing another’s behavior requires 1 minute of
interaction". 10 rounds of talk? Not here.
3) He can't even make his Intimidate check to Demoralize me, because he's not threatening my square in melee combat.

So - no go.


Efreet can not grant themselves wishes.

That's the entire point. He cant avail himself of this useful ability. I offer him help - instead of 3 wishes he can't use, he gets one he can use for his benefit. I will be the actual recipient of the Wish, but will cede him all the proceeds. I.e. I give him the 25,000 gold, or the magic item he wanted.

Third time - no luck.


And it's the GM who decides if the efreet so enjoyed being summoned and dominated that he'll forgo any revenge, not you.

Sure. But:

1) Why would he have any reason to take revenge on me? Efreeti are lawful evil; I called him to offer a very beneficial bargain, in the name of our common god; I made good on that bargain, and he's now 25,000 gp richer - and he didnt have to do anything except use his 3/day ability for 3 rounds. In fact, if he's any smart he'll come back tomorrow for more of the same.

2) If he's being stupid and aggressive, I simply wont let him out of the Magic Circle. After all, he fulfilled my demands through Suggestion, and not through negotiation, so there's no automatic sending back once the deal's done.

Now to the issues.


First, a brief discussion of your "gambit" of dying while approaching some DC 9 monster and trying your spell casting on them. At 1st level a single attack from one of these monsters will hit you, and will kill you.

Heh, slight miscalculation on my behalf - a CR 9 monster would actually give enough XP to advance to 4th level, and a quarter-way to fifth (7200 XP), whereas I was looking for reaching 2nd level. It's a leftover from another optimisation scheme. So all we're looking for here is a CR 3-4 creature.

Anyway, more on the first level upcoming. The first level really is the hardest in this build.

The build is surely not perfect. It's original in its details, and needs some improvements. I already have a better variant, and after some polishing will present it.


Oh really? Weak players? Perhaps you meant to say weak GMs? Because I have not played in any game of D&D where the players established the setting and the rules set used. That has always been in the purview of the GM.O

Okay, let's simmer down a little. I'm not out to insult you or your personal playing skills. I was merely voicing frustration with an approach adopted by some players that lack imagination and willingness to experiment, and some DMs that are condoning it to impose a linear, easy to manage "adventure". If someone likes it, it's his call, but he's got no right of saying that the free-roam, free-will approach is "wrong".


Wish Abusing Equals You Lose The Argument/There's No Point To Discussing Things Any More.

So why are you here again?

[Silverraptor]

How could the Dark One be so sure though? Being the god-slaughtering entity that the Snarl is, wouldn't the Snarl be just as inclined to destroying the Dark One, thus negating that assurance? If this much is expressed in SoD, just say so and nothing else. I'm sure Rich wouldn't want someone revealing all the plot devices from the released issues.:smallamused:


Well supposably, If that ever happened that Redcloak released the snarl on earth by accident, then the snarl would just be content to destroying the second world while the gods get away to the farthest reachest. Then they would apply their old system and each take a turn at developing a part of the world. The Dark One would of course give goblins rights to Life, Liberty, and economic tranquility. Then when the gods are done, a new prison for the snarl and new opportunities for the Goblins

[gamephil]

Isn't this deal essentially a negative 300% rate of return?

For one minute used, I lose 1 minute to each alignment?


V has to pay for the use of each soul being bound to V's, so as far as that goes it's perfectly fair.

[Lamech]

The efreet/wish debate...

That's the entire point. He cant avail himself of this useful ability. I offer him help - instead of 3 wishes he can't use, he gets one he can use for his benefit. I will be the actual recipient of the Wish, but will cede him all the proceeds. I.e. I give him the 25,000 gold, or the magic item he wanted.

Third time - no luck.
Ahh... but they can have their slaves cast wishes. Or you know PAY a mortal a reasonable rate. The Efreet would be pretty dang ticked about getting conned out of two wishes.


It states in the DMG that NPC wizards offer spells for a fixed price should players require them. Everything is laid out.

As for "suicidal". An 11th level Wizard - afraid of an Efreet? Let's be serious here.
They can cast wish three times per day, via the method I already mentioned. It would not be difficult to hunt the offending wizard down, and kill him. And destoy his soul. And I assume most Efreet would want to help kill the wizard enslaving their kind.
Also why wouldn't the wizard do this himself?

Finally wish is a totally broken spell, if one has it as a spell like ablity; that person can wish for ANY magic item they want. If the DM didn't house rule efreet's wish down the efreet would probably have some very powerful magic items. The efreet would charisma check through the circle and kill you.

Your trick requires a creative intertation of the rules, and NPC's all being morons. And easy XP, so while maybe techincally possible its not all that special.
P.S. day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only) is not actually a spell with its ablities listed anywhere. The DM can interpert it however he wants, also important to note.

[Undead Prince]

Too lazy to look them up, but note that Atonement reverses magical alignment change. And your alignment is part of your soul. So yes, D&D allows soul control.

First, this spell itself does not change alignment. It can reverse a previous change (i.e. Helm of Opposite Alignment or Deck of Many things) to restore "natural order", but that's it. Any attempt to use it to actually change the subject's natural alignment comes to this:

"You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment."


Second. As I've already stated, any form of alignment change is not "soul control" as there is no actual control. The soul, and being, in question retains complete free will and self-commandment. All it does is give him a different outlook on life. (out of 9 pre-set, very widely construable variants). He can even revert back to his alignment with the help of the abovementioned Atonement or whatever else. You change your enemy from LG to CE, but he'll still kill you - how's that "control"? A slight nudge in an indeterminable direction is what I'd call it. And definitely not what we're talking about in relation to V's deal. He may very well change alignment on his own, but this will not make him an unquestioning tool of the Archfiends.



Now our player here is really looking for a really friendly DM who will just let him run wild, but his basic position is valid, that the rules do allow one to do really absurd things with a little study. Of course, most of us deem that a flaw in the rules, not something to celebrate.

"Run wild" within the rules. I.e. free roam in a pre-created world. And seriously, getting Wishes from Genies/Efreets is absurd? There's even an item in the DMG called Efreeti bottle... guess what it does? What else is absurd from your POV, killing kobolds with a greataxe?

[FoE]

"Don't put the hellcart before the demon-horse!"

Words to live by. :smallsmile:

You know, after hearing their mission statement (slaughter of angels and so forth), I'm beginning to like this organization more and more ...

[Undead Prince]

The efreet/wish debate

Ahh... but they can have their slaves cast wishes. Or you know PAY a mortal a reasonable rate.

Now you're talking! That's the approach - creative and intelligent use of existing instruments. Well, the answer to this is simple - I'm getting the Wishes through Suggestion, and am not letting the Efreet out of the Circle so that he doesnt have a chance to hurt me - until I'm powerful enough to Command or Dominate him.


Also why wouldn't the wizard do this himself?

Perhaps he was afraid to think out of the box and take initiative. You know. Like some who play 20-lvl fighters and Evocation sorcerers.


Finally wish is a totally broken spell, if one has it as a spell like ablity; that person can wish for ANY magic item they want.

I don't think that's true. The monetary value of the Wish is set pretty definitely. Wishing for a more expensive item launches you into DM voluntarism territory, where he can have his way with you (one example is given in PHB itself - teleport to item's current owner).


If the DM didn't house rule efreet's wish down the efreet would probably have some very powerful magic items.

That's true. And yet he's there, in the Monster Manual. Just like a ton of other useable options (next step - Vampire army).

[Raenir Salazar]

Hrrm, wouldn't the game lose a bit of the fun if this allows you to "easily" conqour the world or is there plenty of wiggle room to allow for interesting encounters with the Snooby Doo kids?

[Kish]

"Run wild" within the rules. I.e. free roam in a pre-created world.
If that's what you're arguing for, I would venture that you're on a different page than the various people you've been arguing with. As long as you're not going to try to argue that an actual DM of an actual game should be expected to go, "You tricked an ogre into a pit and filled it with crossbow bolts, gain three levels," I think you'll encounter less opposition than you have so far. :smallyuk:

[Lamech]

Saga of the efreet, actually its just a mention of wish...

I don't think that's true. The monetary value of the Wish is set pretty definitely. Wishing for a more expensive item launches you into DM voluntarism territory, where he can have his way with you (one example is given in PHB itself - teleport to item's current owner).
Ahh thats only for mundane items. You can make any magical item you want. See...

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
No limits...
Although it does increases the xp cost by twice the xp to make the item; for example a +1000 sword would cost millions of xp to make. Except... spell like ablities don't need to pay that cost. Which means a efreet can wish for a ring of infinite wishes. Wish isn't broken when a wizard casts it, but it is when a solar/efreet does.
P.S. (I'm using the SRD...)

[HandofShadows]

How do "YOU" know we all have only 1 year left to live? Are you trying to tell us something?


Naw, 2012 is when everything goes BOOM, not 2010.

[pjackson]

Am I the only one that thinks that this deal doesn't work for the dev..dem... evil things? Think about it, if the evil magicians were offered the same deal as V was, then they use up 3 soul uses to get 3 uses of a weaker soul. So unless they view V as more valuable then this doesn't work. Also I'm new here so whee.

The deal works because they are trading something they have plenty of - magical power - for something they want - a soul that is not already evil.

[pjackson]

Actually, though, I think that V should take the deal. It's the only chance for saving her family, and maybe it's just because I'm chaotic neutral all the way, but I think that it's a relatively good offer.

I think you are forgetting that the beings making the offer are creatures of pure Evil.
What they will do with control of V is almost certain to be worse than the lost of his/her family.
Start with after V saves his/her family from the dragon they take control and have V disintegrate his/her mate in front of their children, and head downhill from there.
The only reason they would not do something like that would be to use V to do something even more evil (probably involving the gates).

[Random314]

Ways that this can backfire on V.
1) There is no indication on when the fiends will take over V after the splice is done. Three fiends, each with the chance to control V, but this might be done at different times. Suddenly being controlled in the middle of a critical battle may be far more problematic then V realizes.

2) The fiends each get a chance to control V for an amount of time equal to how long V can maintain the soul-splice. But there is nothing in the deal that indicates that this is a continuous length of time. If V holds the splice for just five minutes, he ends up with fifteen minutes of debt. That doesn’t sound too bad, but the fiends may chose to control V in increments of a few seconds at a time. V walks into a friendly town, one of the fiends controls him for one minute and has him kill a dozen farmers, then releases him. V still has fourteen minutes of debt to the fiends and is standing in the middle of a town surrounded by horrified farmers.

3) And of course, all the fun you can have with time passing differently on other planes, although that seems a bit cheesy to me.

4) What happens if V dies before he pays off his debt? I can’t imagine any way that ends well.

[keldorn]

Start as 1st lvl cleric of Tharizdun. For race, can pick something relatively simple like Aasimar, or something else with +Wis (in this example I’ll have Aasimar w/20 WIS and 16 CHA). For feats, pick Heighten Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Heighten for a Flaw if Flaws are allowed. For domains, pick Domination and Fire.

Let's see you're a +1 ECL character with two feats. So you're fist level character is actually fourth level

[kusje]

Ways that this can backfire on V.
1) There is no indication on when the fiends will take over V after the splice is done. Three fiends, each with the chance to control V, but this might be done at different times. Suddenly being controlled in the middle of a critical battle may be far more problematic then V realizes.

2) The fiends each get a chance to control V for an amount of time equal to how long V can maintain the soul-splice. But there is nothing in the deal that indicates that this is a continuous length of time. If V holds the splice for just five minutes, he ends up with fifteen minutes of debt. That doesn’t sound too bad, but the fiends may chose to control V in increments of a few seconds at a time. V walks into a friendly town, one of the fiends controls him for one minute and has him kill a dozen farmers, then releases him. V still has fourteen minutes of debt to the fiends and is standing in the middle of a town surrounded by horrified farmers.

3) And of course, all the fun you can have with time passing differently on other planes, although that seems a bit cheesy to me.

4) What happens if V dies before he pays off his debt? I can’t imagine any way that ends well.


I don't think I'd consider this as "backfiring". It seems like he was willing to give up his soul in exchange so anything better than that is considered a boon.

[Karlstar]

Nice comic, and I've been a big fan for years. One favor, please - no more purple text on black backgrounds. Some of it is impossible for us visually challenged folks to read. I know its not just me, Dragon magazine used to get many of the same complaints. The lack of contrast is just too hard to read for some people. The red on black is fine, the orange on black not quite as good. White or green would work well. Brown on black is right out!

[Anethiel]

Yet another funny hypothetical course of action that will not happen:

V: *thinks* There HAS to be some way to save my family without having to fulfill their requests... *rolls Knowledge (Arcane)* Wait! I got it!
IFCC: So, we got a deal?
V: I accept your proposal. <- four words here

Soul split happens.

IFCC: There. Now we will dismiss the Time Stop. Good luck with that dragon.
V: Dragon? *smiles* Oh, I'm not going to fight her.
IFCC: What?

With the use of multiple wishes, teleportation and/or other newly-acquired spells, V gains possession of a Deck of Many Things.

V: Through the powerful divination spells in my possession, *divinates* I will acquire knowledge of which one of this cards is the Fates Card. *holds the card between fingers, without extracting it yet* Now I will extract it, reversing the death of the Young Adult Black Dragon, which provoked the anger of the Ancient Black Dragon, the threat to my family and your appearance on this island itself.
IFCC: *stare in disbelief*
V: This way the very deal we made rounds ago will be undone, and I will not have to abide by your deceptive terms!
IFCC: But... we had no intent to deceive you...
V: Speak no more! As my superior intellect defeated you! *extracts card*

Everything spins into a blur of color, while reality reshapes itself. Next panel - The Young Adult Black Dragon, alive and healthy, sleeping in his swamp near to a V-shaped skeleton and V's robes. On his face, the relaxed expression of a dragon digesting a tender elf. Last panel - V in the afterlife, scrying on the Material Plane.

V: Well... Darn.

[Kish]

I don't think I'd consider this as "backfiring". It seems like he was willing to give up his soul in exchange so anything better than that is considered a boon.
But then, if the fiends gain the ability to take over Vaarsuvius while s/he is still alive, that could wind up actually being worse for the Order or the world (or even Vaarsuvius' family) than them "merely" claiming his/her soul upon death.

[Keshay]

Two words - Red Wizard. No, make it four words - Red Wizard Circle Magic.

Unfortunatley V isn't a Human from Thay. Nor does he have a cabal of associates with which to make use of the Circle.

I fail to see how Red Wizards from a different campaign world could have any bearing on V's situation. Maybe V could become a Jedi too!

[Kish]

Unfortunatley V isn't a Human from Thay. Nor does he have a cabal of associates with which to make use of the Circle.

I fail to see how Red Wizards from a different campaign world could have any bearing on V's situation. Maybe V could become a Jedi too!
Vaarsuvius? A Jedi? Don't be silly. S/he is obviously becoming a Sith...

[Undead Prince]

Unfortunatley V isn't a Human from Thay.

I was replying to this:


School specilization is totally useless.

You did not say "for an elf", "in OOTS", or "for V". Your wording appeared to be deliberately general, and indeed you cited quantity of spellslots and prohibition of spell schools in support of your position - general considerations applicable to any race or campaign world. Therefore, I gave an example where specialization was not merely useful, it was uniquely powerful.

There are, of course, more obvious, and universal, reasons to specialize. +1 spell slot per level is incredibly powerful - e.g. you always have TWICE as many highest-level spells as a generalist of your level (not counting INT bonus). For this all you have to do is ditch one school if you specialise in Divination (which is a very nice school with many powerful spells that keep you safe and give you vital knowledge). For the banned school, Evocation comes to mind as it doesn't really have much to offer to a mage with a utilitarian approach to gameplay.


I fail to see how Red Wizards from a different campaign world could have any bearing on V's situation.

Well, so long as we're talking about it:

1) The DMG clearly states that it is possible to use this PrC outside the Forgotten Realms setting (although it does warn to be cautious when doing so).

2) The OOTS world has an Asgardian pantheon, the fiends and the Blood War, a variety of classes and creatures from different supplements, etc. Why shouldn't it have something similar to an RWoT?

3) The requirement "human from Thay" stems from the fact that Red Wizards accept only their own into the ranks. As such, from the game world point of view, it may be fulfilled/circumvented by Polymorph/Polymorph Any Object (elf -> human) + Bluff/Charm Person/Knowledge(local)/Telepathy/whatever to make it appear that you are, indeed, a human from Thay. Whether it will be enough to deceive Red Wizards depends on the player and the DM.


Nor does he have a cabal of associates with which to make use of the Circle.

Leadership feat. Enchantment spells. Undead spellcasting minions (controlled through a Dominated necromancer or cleric).


Maybe V could become a Jedi too!

Red Wizard is a PrC from a Core Rulebook - the Dungeon Master's Guide. Jedi... has no relation to DnD whatsoever. What made you think this absurd analogy had any weight as an argument?

[Undead Prince]

Let's see you're a +1 ECL character with two feats. So you're fist level character is actually fourth level

In the quote that you provided there is a clear reference to Flaw being responsible for the second feat. If Flaws are not allowed, the build offers an alternative path with one less feat.

If the ECL is bothering you, same results can be achieved with a Middle-aged Human. He'd still have 20 WIS and 16 CHA by lvl 5. Of course, the concept can ride with lesser stats as well.

In any case, the build is currently undergoing reconstruction. There are better, and more waterproof, alternatives.


Hrrm, wouldn't the game lose a bit of the fun if this allows you to "easily" conqour the world or is there plenty of wiggle room to allow for interesting encounters with the Snooby Doo kids?

For me, the fun of the game is not grinding through dozens of "level-appropriate" encounters on some fool's errand. The fun is being presented with the world and the tools, and making something extraordinary out of it.

A pertinent example: V is on a quest for ultimate arcane power. There is a very simple way to achieve it - just kill a lot of CR-appropriate monsters and do a lot of quests, and someday you'll reach Epic levels. Would this satisfy V if he knew he could get much more powerful much quicker just by following an unorthodox path?

To your second question, "conquering the world" is not easy at all when you play by the rules and are confronted with a capable DM. To every strategy there is a countermove (even the infamous Pun-Pun had counters, though AFAIK they had to be on the level of divine intervention). It's really much like a game of chess, where no 100%-win system exists, but rather a number of gambits and stratagems which in their interaction form the game as it goes on the board. A learned player can quickly checkmate a newbie, but no one is guaranteed from defeat at the hands of a worthier opponent or through your own mistakes.


If that's what you're arguing for, I would venture that you're on a different page than the various people you've been arguing with. As long as you're not going to try to argue that an actual DM of an actual game should be expected to go, "You tricked an ogre into a pit and filled it with crossbow bolts, gain three levels," I think you'll encounter less opposition than you have so far. :smallyuk:

Thanks for understanding. And I'm working on improving the strategy for the first two levels. As of now it's rather oversimplified, I agree.

[Raenir Salazar]

Now onto stage 2. I want to hear about the Vampire army :)

[Simons Mith]

Deliberate or not, that typo in the link title is getting on my nerves. "Where do YO see youself..."

[Doug Lampert]

Let's see you're a +1 ECL character with two feats. So you're fist level character is actually fourth level

Then he walks alone, into a high level dungeon, looking for an overwhelming encounter that he can easily kill rather than the much more probable reverse event that it easily kills him.

Then IIRC he neglects the rule that any one encounter can't advance you more than one level.

Then it gets really bad.

[David Argall]

First, this spell itself does not change alignment. It can reverse a previous change, but that's it.
Right, it can reverse a previous involuntary change, which means involuntary changes can happen under the rules. which is all that we are arguing here.


Second. As I've already stated, any form of alignment change is not "soul control" as there is no actual control.
Dominate is not soul control. Alignment is not soul control. This is beginning to sound like the faithful girl joke, when the guy insists his girl is not cheating on him. Talking to other men is not cheating, holding hands is not cheating, kissing is not cheating, going to a hotel room is not cheating...
Just what would you call soul control?


"Run wild" within the rules. I.e. free roam in a pre-created world.
The point is that it is free roam. The DM allowing this sort of stuff is just not challenging you.


And seriously, getting Wishes from Genies/Efreets is absurd?
I have not said anything about wishes. I didn't need to get that far before dismissing the idea as simply wishful thinking. A very unusual race, combined with a rare this and that. Now you go out to kill a powerful monster, which makes no effort to attack before you are ready. Nor does any other monster come around. Then you misuse a spell, which is no better than a 50-50 shot to work even then. No, I don't need to work that far.

[BillyJimBoBob]

The CharOp discussion
First the business.
[snipped]
"The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly... none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram... the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above."

Becoming a Large creature that occupies 9 squares instead of 1 would definitely disturb the circle. Also, it would probably count as "ability crossing the diagram". So the Efreet can't do it.
Becoming larger than the circle does not disturb the circle in any way. Nor is it in any way an "ability crossing the diagram", as your size is not any kind of "ability".

Thanks for playing, and thank you for providing a hungry efreet with a tasty meal.


1) The size doesnt work.Refuting evidence without citation doesn't make you right. Provide a reason why
You gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are larger than your target. does not work, or accept that it does.


2) "Changing another’s behavior requires 1 minute of
interaction". 10 rounds of talk? Not here.Yes, here.
Intimidating an opponent in combat is a standard action.
[...]If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly[...]Once you're intimidated, which only takes a standard action, you are friendly and will no longer be casting any spells on the efreet. He then uses 1 minute to change your behavior so that you'll willingly break the circle, attack the mage, whatever he likes. You have no options as long as you remain in his presence, and as a friend his first request is that you stick around, as you and he will be having a lot of fun in a little while. :smallbiggrin:


3) He can't even make his Intimidate check to Demoralize me, because he's not threatening my square in melee combat.Again, incorrect. You and he are in combat as soon as initiative is called for. Which happens before you can cast a single spell on him. There is no requirement that he threaten your square, at all.

[Horatio@Bridge]

In regards to the plan on leveling up, it seems that there are basically two stages:

1) Go to where there are higher level monsters, and use clever tactics to defeat them when you otherwise shouldn't be able to.

and

2) Find a way to get wishes.

I don't see a problem with a free-range world where you'd be able to do this, and I think it'd be a great driving point to a campaign where basically the players are providing their own adventure hooks. But as a "clever DM" who "steps up to the challenge of his advanced players," I'd still run it as an adventure, not as the "auto-level grind" that you seem to be saying it would be. Just finding a place where you can hope to survive is going to take some adventuring, not to mention getting there, then trying to isolate and defeat a single such opponent. And then of course there's the issue of "plan doesn't survive contact with the enemy." You blow your single spell on the ogre? A worg pack catches your scent on the way home. Or the ogre was hunting with a buddy. Or he shouts as he dies, and his clan hears him. Etc, etc, etc. Not that this idea would be impossible, you'd just have to have some contingency plans and a pair of good running shoes. But it does sound like a fun adventure! Just a little more high-risk than others, and you're likely to lose a few characters in the process. There's a reason that people don't do this all the time.

As for plan number two, that also strikes me as rather dangerous, BUT! it's also got a lot of potential plot hooks. For one, it's very similar to V's situation right now. Want to get wishes to boost you towards phenomenal cosmic power? Fine, but you might find out that there are a few strings attached. Wishes from Efreets, if you look at the legends, rarely end well. They're twisted, and what you think you want is often less than spectacular once you actually get it. Or you offend (or indebt yourself) to a mighty power. Or your wealth draws the attention of some pretty unsavory characters, eager to steal what you haven't rightfully earned, so therefore don't have the strength to keep...your power is dependent on an external force, and all that's necessary to destroy you is find a way to remove that force. Dismissal? Get control of the summoning circle? Gee, how have heroes destroyed evil sorcerer's drawing power from djinn and demons in all the legends over the years? I'm sure someone will think of something.

And of course, your plan is heavily dependent on the availability of wishes in the world you're playing in. Sure, under the RAW, there's a whole city full of these beings that can grant several wishes per day, but there's no reason that your DM has to be playing under those rules. Under the RAW, every two-bit cleric/sorcerer team isn't following this combo, either, so the DM is free to come up with a reason why. Or he could say that every two-bit cleric/sorcerer team does use that combo, in which case you've got a world of some severely overpowered spellcasters hurling borrowed power at each other with wild abandon, limited only by the borrowed power of their peers...which I think would be a cool world to play in. Alternatively, the DM could nerf efreets, saying the power is only available to some efreets, or that there's some sort of catch (you have to free the efreet after you get your wishes, for instance, opening up all sorts of interesting problems--like when the efreet goes to your worse enemy and grants him a single wish: canceling all your wishes), or depower it in terms of what the efreet can grant. Or maybe there's some sort of Cosmic Law that balances these things (maybe Inevitables start coming after you, or Fate steps in to strip you of your power just at the worse possible time). Maybe the secret to binding efreets is rare and hidden lore, requiring strange and unwholesome spell components...

Anyway, the point is that you're basing your "build" on some assumptions about the world you're playing in, and the DM is well within his/her rights to negate those assumptions or, at the very least, have you play out your ambitions as a full fledged adventure, with all the possibilities for failure that this entails.

[Undead Prince]

Becoming larger than the circle does not disturb the circle in any way.

Oh, LOL. "If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly... The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it. However, the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above."

Becoming larger means the Efreet itself physically crosses the circle and the diagram. He can't do it per se (can't go outside the circle), he can't disturb the circle (and he WILL disturb it if he's physically 9 squares large), and he can't disturb (e.g. lay anything across) the diagram - and he will be laying himself across the diagram if he becomes larger. In other words - just. doesnt. work.


Refuting evidence without citation doesn't make you right. Provide a reason why does not work, or accept that it does.

I just did - the size bonus doesnt apply because the Efreet cant make himself larger in the circle.


Originally Posted by d20srd
Intimidating an opponent in combat is a standard action.
[...]If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly[...]


Once you're intimidated, which only takes a standard action, you are friendly

You either have trouble reading the SRD, or are deliberately misleading. The FULL quote reads as follows (underlined by me):

"Check: You can change another’s behavior with a successful
check. (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom
bonus + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat
your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but
only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated.
(That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise,
offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See
the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as
long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes
afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you
shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

Demoralize Opponent: You can also use Intimidate to weaken an
opponent’s resolve in combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check
opposed by the target’s modified level check (see above). If you win,
the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a –
2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can
intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and
that can see you.

Action: Varies. Changing another’s behavior requires 1 minute of
interaction. Intimidating an opponent in combat is a standard
action."

As you can perfectly well see, changing attitude to friendly is called "changing another's behaviour" and calls for "1 minute of interaction". Using intimidate in combat only allows you to attempt to "demoralize opponent" (make him shaken), but this attempt can only be made if you "threaten the opponent in melee combat" (i.e. he's within reach of your weapon). As I've already said, the Efreet won't have the one minute of interaction, and he's not threatening me in melee because I'm standing away from the summoning circle.

It's all moot anyway, because the Efreet will be paralysed by Ghoul Glyph on arrival.


He then uses 1 minute to change your behavior so that you'll willingly break the circle, attack the mage, whatever he likes.

You have no idea what "friendly" attitude means, do you?


You have no options as long as you remain in his presence, and as a friend his first request is that you stick around, as you and he will be having a lot of fun in a little while. :smallbiggrin:

Go read PHB p. 72 on NPC attitudes.


Again, incorrect. You and he are [i]in combat as soon as initiative is called for. Which happens before you can cast a single spell on him. There is no requirement that he threaten your square, at all.

This assertion has been sufficiently refuted by the quote above.

[Undead Prince]

All right, new build approach. Now updated to v. 2.0

It's an indepth look on starting and playing the first few levels.

Some considerations were taken into account (people don't like Aasimar? Fine, let's play regular human joe instead). No Flaws, Traits, or Taint used. It stops right where the action gets really interesting, and will be continued.

It's a very recent work, so there might be holes. Also, pardon the language - obviously wasn't going for Nobel in Literature here.

The basic idea behind the build is - why do something yourself, when you can have others do it for you with much better results; and - why share when you can keep everything to yourself.

Start as Human Middle-Aged cleric of a cause.

Alignment: Chaotic Evil :smallamused:

Class: Cleric

Deity: Cause.
Now the rules are not exactly clear on clerics of a cause, in particular domain portfolios of causes. Normally deities have 3-4 domains. In this build, we’re shooting for a portfolio of Domination, Undeath, Hunger, and Fire. Describe your Cause in a manner consistent with your alignment and the Domains (e.g. you worship hunger for total power through fiery destruction and undeath).

Domains you take at 1st level: Domination, Undeath.
Apply Spontaneous Domain Casting from PHB II to Domination domain.

Stats:
STR 8
DEX 8
CON 8
INT 14
WIS 19
CHA 16
(32 point buy, includes Middle-Aged boni & mali).

Feats: Heighten Spell, Divine Metamagic: Heighten
(+Spell Focus: Enchantment and Extra Turning from domains).

Skills: Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana, religion, the planes), Diplomacy.

1. Take Cleric starting package (keeping it simple). However, instead of Heavy mace (you won’t be meleeing much with this build) take its cost (12 gp).

2. Since you now have (12 + 1d4) 14 gp 5 sp of pocket money, use it to hire 10 Mercenary warriors for 7 days. Preferably in a Lawful neutral town, as evil can’t be trusted and good won’t like you being evil (which they’ll find out soon enough).

3. Promise them Hazard pay from the loot you’re going to get (this only amounts to 14 more gp), and make Diplomacy checks to make them Friendly to you beyond the contractual relationship, so that you’re a good team and they don’t try to cheat you. With 4 ranks in Diplomacy, +3 Cha and +1 Guidance cantrip, your check is 1d20 +8 vs. DC 15, i.e. you should reliably become friends with 6-7 out of 10 Mercenaries.

4. The Mercs come fully equipped - every Warrior already has an average of 750 gp worth of equipment on him, so you don’t need to buy them anything extra. This means they sport Banded mail, Heavy shields, and an assortment of weapons. Tell them to pick some Bludgeoning (Warhammers and Heavy flails) as you’re going to be battling undead. Don’t forget that each should have a ranged weapon (preferably composite longbows). If possible, get one with a Tower shield to be your shieldbearer, providing total concealment.

5. At 1st level, the Merc Warrior is basically a Fighter with 1d8 hp, no extra feat, and lower ability scores (probably around 14 STR, 12 DEX, 12 CON, very low for mentals). They have decent attack bonus (+3, +4 if they have Weapon Focus in their chosen weapon, +5 counting your Bless) and high AC (10 +6 Banded Mail, +2 HvyShld, +1 Dex = 19). There’s many of them, so they’ll always be Flanking (+2 attack, making it +7 total). A volley from their longbows is a great way to start a fight.

6. The best thing about Mercs, like all Hirelings, is that they don’t cut into the XP. Whoever they kill, you get all the XP. You also get all the loot, but I suggest giving them a good cut to keep them happy.

7. Now go to the nearest undead dungeon and start harvesting XP. With 10 Rebukes per day at 16 Cha, you’ll be dominating these encounters. Unlike Turn, Rebuke doesn’t make undead run away, but rather rivets them in place for 10 rounds – more than enough for your Mercs to batter them to dust. Rebuked undead also get -2 AC for cowering, making this even easier. At level 1 you can reliably Rebuke undead creatures of 1-2 HD (e.g. human skeletons and zombies), but there’s a 25% chance you’ll be able to turn 3 or 4 HD undeads. Since you have many turn attempts, don’t be afraid to spam them if suddenly faced with a wight. You’ll be Rebuking an average total of 11 HD of undead per rebuke (5 zombies and a skel, or 11 skels, or 2 wights etc). Just don’t engage the undead in melee personally, or you’ll end the rebuke effect.

8. Keep your Mercs in formation (e.g. 4 shieldbearing tanks, 2 two-handed flankers, 3 halberdiers with reach weapons, 1 bodyguard with Tower shield) to maximize effectiveness in close quarters. If it ever gets hard, use Bless. May keep a Vision of Heaven (Daze for 1 round) for any particularly nasty living opponent you may encounter (necromancer dwelling in the crypts?) – with your Spell Focus and Divine Metamagic: Heighten he will surely fail the saving throw, and while he’s Dazed your Mercs will pincushion him.

9. With loot (and even a lvl 1 encounter is supposed to give 300 gp) pay off your hirelings for the hazards they endured, and secure their services for further cooperation. Since now you can easily afford it, hire Cavalrymen who come with horses.

10. Once you reach Lvl 2 (and you should very quickly, remember, you’re soloing), immediately Command two skeletons, who are now your unquestioning servants forever (or until better undead come along). Make them your personal, unsleeping bodyguards.

11. At lvl 3, pick feat Quicken Spell or Twin Spell or Repeat Spell (depends; more on that later). You also get access to 2nd lvl spells, which notably include Enthrall and Substitute Domain (Complete Champion).

12. Enthrall is a great battlefield controller: it targets everyone in sight, lasts for more than an hour, and makes all enemies either friendly or indifferent towards you and your team. Creatures of 4 or more HD get a new saving throw every time they notice something they don’t like, but the save is at the same DC as the spell, i.e. >20, so all enemies with Will +0 (e.g. Ogres) are automatically Enthralled until they manage to roll a 20. Even assuming a new check takes place every round, you still have enough time to strategically place your Mercs and subject the enemies to brutal attacks. Another good use of this spell is stealing stuff from people (hire experts-thieves to do that). If you choose to end the spell by performing hostile acts towards targets, the formerly enthralled have their attitude changed to unfriendly (not hostile), i.e. as per RAW they shouldn’t attack you. All in all, a great spell. Moreover, it’s on the Domination domain list, so you can spontaneously convert any 2nd lvl spell into Enthrall.

13. Cast Substitute Domain and choose Hunger instead of Undeath. Prepare “Ghoul Glyph” – a no-save paralysis trap spell, rest. Now go to location of a powerful but stupid monster you’d like to slay, cast Ghoul Glyph, dismiss Substitute Domain (which will return you the Undeath Extra Turning power), attract the monster’s attention with your Mercs and their longbows. Cast Enthrall to make him Indifferent, then safely cast Command:Approach (with help of your Divine Metamagic: Heighten, both spells will succeed vs. something like CR 7 Ogre Barbarian (Will +2), unless he rolls a 20).

14. The trick here is that the Ogre will be Approaching you through a double row of your Mercs, who will all have AoOs on him with Flanking bonus, and in the end he’ll step right onto the Ghoul Glyph (remember, no-save paralysis; it’s also invisible). All that’s left is Coup-de-gras the poor critter into oblivion. This will put you straight to 4th level.

15. At 4th level get +1 WIS (for a nice round total of 20). Otherwise, repeat the above tricks to get easy XP and loot. Collect corpses of most powerful enemies for future use.

16. At 5th level is where you begin doing the Vampire/Efreeti Gambit.

17. Start by using your new Animate Dead spell to make yourself some decent undead minions in addition to the Commanded skeletons (of which you now have 5). Construct a death-worshipping altar in your lair and cast Desecrate. Sacrifice someone on the altar (can be a rat, but preferably a beautiful human virgin) and cast Death Knell while the Sacrifice’s bleeding to death. Now you can Animate a 24 HD skeleton or zombie who will be in your service forever. He will also get +2 hp per level, which coupled with his d12 hit dice makes him a tough bugger. An Adult Red Dragon is a good candidature for zombification here. If you have trouble obtaining corpses of that magnitude, make do with two 12 HD ones or something. Consider the fact that Skeletons keep proficiencies, and Zombies keep Natural armor + get an AC bonus based on size. For low-HD creatures such as human warriors, skels are more useful; for large, high-HD creatures zombies are better – zombie dragons can even fly. However, I digress – this is not an Undead guide. Point is, you now have some very powerful minions.

18. Use your new army to reach lvl 6. (yeah, it’s lame, I’m thinking on how to spice it up). At this point you should have around 13,000 gp worth of treasure from all the killing (DMG, p. 135). We’ll only need a small fraction of that, though.

19. LEVEL 6: Take the Paragnostic Apostle PrC (CChamp). Take See through the Veil as your “Knowledge is Power”. Now you are considered 2 levels higher for Rebuking, without loss of spellcasting or rebuking power.

20. Take “Divine Metamagic: Twin spell” feat.

21. Buy potions of Owl’s Wisdom and Eagle’s Splendour. Buy a Lesser Rod of Metamagic, Extend for 3,000 gp ( <- this is the only expensive magic item that has to be bought in a shop for this build. Perhaps I’ll find a way to circumvent it). Cast Substitute Domain Undeath -> Hunger, prepare “Ghoul Glyph”.

22. Approach an 11th lvl Wizard who offers spellcasting services (You should be able to find several of those in any Large city or Metropolis, see p. 139 of the DMG).

23. Make a Diplomacy check with the Wizard: by now you have 9 ranks, +5 from Charisma augmented by Eagle’s Splendour, +1 from Guidance = 1d20 +15 vs. DC 15, i.e. 100% success. Now the Wizard’s attitude is Friendly, and he will be genuinely willing to help you in addition to being a tradesman who offers his services for sale.

24. Choose a good isolated location such as cellar, with one small window that allows to look in from an adjacent room.

25. Cast Ghoul Glyph on point of summoning. The Glyph is permanent so you can now rest and cast it again, on a second point of summoning. Dismiss Substitute Domain. Take in your Undead minions “to help defend from Efreet if anything goes wrong). Cast Death Knell to raise your caster level to 7. Pay the Wizard 1430 gp to cast Magic Circle (with diagram), Dimensional Anchor, and Planar Binding (Efreeti).

26. Once the Efreeti arrives, he’ll be paralysed (no save) by the Ghoul Glyph. While he can’t perform any actions for 1d6 +2 rounds (average 5), you cast Prayer, a few Dooms to Shake him, and finally Suggestion, augmented by Divine Metamagic: Heighten and the Rod of Lesser Extend Metamagic, to share his vast Wishing wealth with yourself in exchange for proceeds from one Wish, but only on the condition that he does not perform any actions for the following 7 hours (the length of your Suggestion) except granting you 3 Wishes.

27. Your 3 Wishes are: a Phylactery of Undead Turning, a Rod of Defiance, and a Nightstick. Each of these ordinary magical items costs less than 25,000 gp, so should be received with no problems. As a supernatural ability, Wishes granted by Efreet do not have an XP cost.

28. Now ask the Wizard to summon another Efreeti on the second Ghoul Glyph (you've got the money to pay him). With the Nightstick you have 4 more uses of Turn Undead to power your Divine Metamagic: Heighten for the Suggestion.

29. Your second 3 Wishes are: Sacred Armor, Sacred Shield, Flametouched Holy Symbol. Cast Substitute Domain: Undeath -> Fire.

30. Now you can COMMAND Efreet, as your level for purposes of turning/rebuking is 20, and Efreet have 10 HD. Command the two Efreet immediately. They are now your loyal servants and will not think of taking any revenge upon you, but will gladly offer you 6 wishes per day.

31. With this kind of power you don't need the Wizard anymore. You may bid him farewell and leave.

32. However, if he is unwise enough not to be immune from mind-affecting (something that can be found out with the help of Efreeti's Telepathy, or a Wish), you can use the Wish to cast Dominate Person on him, augmented by your DMM:Twin Spell for good measure. With the Wish’s innate DC of 19, +7 from your WIS (spell’s on your Domination spell list), +1 from Spell Focus you have DC 28 vs. his +6 Will save (might be +7 or +8 if the wizard for some reason has high Wisdom, but this still doesn’t save), and Twin Spell, a non-immune Wizard has no chance.

33. With the new items you can now Command Vampires (a total of 20 HD, each max 10 HD). Unfortunately, these nice creatures can’t be made with your Wizard’s Create Undead, so you’ll have to use a Wish to get them. The Wish can transport 1 creature per caster level, Will Save for the unwilling. A 5th lvl human fighter – Vampire, featured in the MM, only has a Will Save of 4, vs. the Wish’s DC of 26 (if using your Wisdom score), or 19 (if not using it). So one or two Wishes should get you enough Vampires to get started. Otherwise, you can find them on your own – with help of your Wizard slave and many undead buddies, of course. The Vamps should be lurking in any decent crypt, and by this point the meager dangers of such crypts are nothing to you.

34. The benefit of Vampires is twofold. First, they can turn NPCs into vampires, which will be loyal servants of these master vampires - and consequently, loyal servants of you. Vampires indirectly controlled in this manner do not count towards your undead pool - so you can have as many as you like. Second, Vampires have the interesting Dominate ability at will with DC = 10 + ½ HD + Cha bonus. Considering the Vampire template to give +4 Charisma, by vampirising high-charisma characters (sorcerers, bards, clerics, favored souls, warlocks) your undead pets will have approximately 22 Cha, +4 from Eagle’s Splendour = 26. Thus, the DC for the gaze attack will = 23 (or 20 for 5HD vampires). As per the Monster Manual core rulebook, the Vampire’s Dominate ability functions like Dominate Person but affects anyone. I.e. it works like the Dominate Monster spell (which itself is a Dominate Person that affects any creature). Not to mention they get to keep all class levels – e.g. your new 10HD vampires may be 10th level Sorcerers to boot.

35. With this force at your command, you’re now a total master of the Efreeti: two gaze attacks per round at DC 23 can Dominate with 90% probability one Efreeti every round. In a minute you’ll have 10 Dominated Efreeti. Use their Wishes to Planar Bind more Efreeti! Remember, you can keep as many Efreeti as you want imprisoned in Magic circles, and the vampire’s Dominate ability lasts for twelve days! After which you can just gaze the Efreeti into submission again.

36. Once you feel you have enough Efreeti working for you, start using the Wishes to get money (25,000 gp per Wish), artifacts, +5 to all stats.

37. Also use this to cast nice spells, such as Finger of Death + Animate Ju-Ju Zombie + Tongues on your Dominated Mage to give you a faithful Undead wizard slave (for FoD, tell him to fail his saving throw if DC 19 vs Save +3 not good enough for you). Repeat on other Dominated targets to get yourself a decent coterie of wizards/clerics/whoever, in addition to your ever-growing Vampire army.

38. Continue using Wishes to give your army magic weapons, armor, and items, as well as ability enhancements for your most powerful minions. Don’t forget to cast anti-scrying and dimension locks over your lair, and make use of the Wish’s Prescience ability so that you don’t easily get bothered by any opposition the Dungeon Master decides to send against you.

39. Enjoy knowledge that at character level 6 you’ve already surpassed every other OOTS character, including Xykon (despite all his Epicness). And yet this is only the beginning!

Step 2: The XP-MACHINE – to be continued!

[sum1won]

A 21 step process involving multiple non-core books is not simple. It might not require twisty rules-lawyering, but it is not simple and you will still need a cooperative DM to allow you to get away with it.

[Axl_Rose]

If V's soul is kept for eternity, how will the others benefit? How do you perfectly divide eternity into 3 ways?

Very easily.

A takes soul today*.
B tommorow.
C the day after.

Rinse and repeat. For all eternity.

*Any unit of time can be substituted for day.

[Horatio@Bridge]

--The "Build" Debate--



I think the main objection I have to your build is that most of what you're describing isn't a build at all. The character optimization part is just finding a way to maximize your spell DCs and choosing crowd control spells. Then you throw in tactics which utilize your build to maximum effectiveness. At that point, you've left the area of what's under the control of the player and entered the world of the DM, which means that anything that happens is moderated by the DM. I think that's what people are getting at by saying that your idea depends on the DM "letting you get away with it". I think that your character concept could be quite successful, to a point, but I don't think they're going to be world-dominating.

Take a standard fighter, for example. His strengths are hitting stuff hard and a fairly high AC. The advantage of a fighter is that he can fight all day long without running out of his special powers (cause he ain't got none). So, while you're picking one fight with a tough opponent and using your screen to shield you, he picks a long series of fights with individually weaker opponents. If he follows the same hire mercenary tactics, he could probably spread the damage around enough that he can get in a good 13 fights a day with on-level critters while taking minimum damage himself, and end up at the same place. Now, does this work? Well, yeah, so long as the DM allows him to find places where he can get one or two kobolds off on their own where he can ambush them. Which isn't a bad assumption--he goes to a kobold cave, then lures out their hunting parties one by one. A sufficiently "clever" PC can probably find some sort of justification.

The problem with both strategies is that they rely on your ability to isolate your opponents. Why wouldn't some wandering patrol come along, or the guy you're ambushing call for reinforcements? What happens when you've got two CR 7 creatures to keep tied down? What happens when you get ambushed? These strategies only work consistently over the long term if the DM deliberately refrains from creating situations which your character is ill-suited to facing. And thus they only work "if the DM lets you get away with it."

Of course, a good response is to just run away from anything which you can't handle. That's the essence of strategy, right? Hit your opponent where they're weak and you're strong, and try to minimize the damage when they do the same thing.

[Trizap]

I think the purple guy is LE, Yellow guy is NE and Orange guy is CE.

[Undead Prince]

--The "Build" Debate--



I think the main objection I have to your build is that most of what you're describing isn't a build at all. The character optimization part is just finding a way to maximize your spell DCs and choosing crowd control spells. Then you throw in tactics which utilize your build to maximum effectiveness.

IMHO a build is nothing without proper tactics to 1) achieve it, 2) use it. What I've attempted to do, and what you don't often see even in specialised CharOp discussions, is a step-by-step process that describes exactly how are you going to achieve your goals in the DnD world.


At that point, you've left the area of what's under the control of the player and entered the world of the DM, which means that anything that happens is moderated by the DM.

Everything that happens is ALWAYS moderated by DM, starting from choice of race and class. I've employed the DMG as well as PHB/PHB II and MM (the Core Rulebooks) to devise a way that should be allowed if we follow RAW/RAI. Of course, the DM is always free to nerf/homebrew the setting. But I've made every attempt at making the character reasonable (i.e., no outlandish races/templates, no Flaws or Taint etc.). I've tried to support every step of the way with direct references to the core rulebooks, or reasonable supplements. So on RAW/RAI grounds, the build should be valid, and thus acceptable to a reasonable DM.

Of course, when we start hitting the uberness, the DM would want to go out of his way to hurdle the character. As long as it's being done by ingame means, and not "You can't do that because I said so", I have nothing against it - it's an extra challenge that I'll in fact happily rise to.


I think that your character concept could be quite successful, to a point, but I don't think they're going to be world-dominating.

Heh :smallsmile: You've only witnessed the start of, ahem, darkness :smallamused: Just wait and see.


Take a standard fighter, for example. His strengths are hitting stuff hard and a fairly high AC.

(At first level) same results can be achieved by hiring a couple of Mercs for a handful of sp's.


The advantage of a fighter is that he can fight all day long without running out of his special powers (cause he ain't got none).

Er, he has the Mighty Power of Hitpoints, and once he runs out of that, he's toast 8=) At lvl 1, with around 12 HP, he's only a few hits away from oblivion.


So, while you're picking one fight with a tough opponent and using your screen to shield you, he picks a long series of fights with individually weaker opponents. If he follows the same hire mercenary tactics, he could probably spread the damage around enough that he can get in a good 13 fights a day with on-level critters while taking minimum damage himself, and end up at the same place.

At lvl 1 my Cleric has powers way above any fighter. With Rebuke, high Cha and Extra Turning he can easily dominate massive undead encounters resulting in cheap XP and loot. With Divine Metamagic:Heighten, high WIS and Spell Focus: Enchantment he can Daze or Command powerful foes that would kill the fighter in a couple of rounds of melee. With his high Diplomacy, CHA and the Guidance cantrip he can make friends with people which helps with keeping Mercs happy and eases various town tasks. And, of course, he has various Cleric spells like Sanctuary, Hide from Undead, Protection from Alignment, Cure etc. And this is lvl 1, when my Cleric is at his most vulnerable. In four levels, the Fighter will get +4 to attack and +2 to damage (weapon spec) + some hp. Whereas my Cleric will be commanding an army of powerful creatures, including high-level spellcasters, and leeching off free Wishes.


The problem with both strategies is that they rely on your ability to isolate your opponents. Why wouldn't some wandering patrol come along, or the guy you're ambushing call for reinforcements? What happens when you've got two CR 7 creatures to keep tied down? What happens when you get ambushed?

With a team of mercenaries at my disposal, and my high-DC enchantment spells, anything level-appropriate is just not a threat. If you're talking Level 3 when we go against high-CR creatures, let me remind you once again that Enthrall works on any number of creatures within a range of more than 100 feet, and lasts for more than an hour. For critical moments, I have Sanctuary/Hide from Undead, etc.


These strategies only work consistently over the long term if the DM deliberately refrains from creating situations which your character is ill-suited to facing. And thus they only work "if the DM lets you get away with it."

This is not quite "long-term" we're talking here - only a few days. And the strategies vary, with new ones arriving every level. Of course, if the DM just wants to kill me right away, he can do it. But why should he? I'm doing everything by the rules, why should he punish me for being inventive?


Of course, a good response is to just run away from anything which you can't handle. That's the essence of strategy, right? Hit your opponent where they're weak and you're strong, and try to minimize the damage when they do the same thing.

You are absolutely correct.

[JoseB]

Just an aside, but... Shouldn't the "build debate" be taken to the Gaming sub-forum, where it more properly belongs, rather than be kept here, mixed up with the comments on comic #633?

Just my 2 eurocent!

[Airenus]

Couldn't V while having 3 epic spellcasters in her soul cast a few epic permanencies in a week and then give it up?

[BillyJimBoBob]

Oh, LOL. "If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly... The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it. However, the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above."

Becoming larger means the Efreet itself physically crosses the circle and the diagram. He can't do it per se (can't go outside the circle), he can't disturb the circle (and he WILL disturb it if he's physically 9 squares large), and he can't disturb (e.g. lay anything across) the diagram - and he will be laying himself across the diagram if he becomes larger. In other words - just. doesnt. work.Yes, it does. And by the way "Oh, LOL" is not a supporting argument.
Again, becomming larger is not in any way violating the restrictions of the spell. The spell specifically notes what happens if the circle is too small, and specifically prohibits certain actions while within the circle. Casting Enlarge is not prohibited, as that casting does not have to cross the circle. The effect of that casting is that the circle becomes too small, but that's not either directly or indirectly "disturbing" the circle, which is a permanent drawn diagram as described by you. Even were it to be only a circle of powdered silver, there is nothing in the rules to support that this circle would be disturbed simply because a huge creature was standing over it.


I just did - the size bonus doesnt apply because the Efreet cant make himself larger in the circle.First, as per the above, you are incorrect. Second, even with a mere + 4 for starting out Large the efreet has a very high probability of Intimidating you. So in either case, prepare to be lunch.

You either have trouble reading the SRD, or are deliberately misleading.You can wriggle, but you can't get away.


Intimidating an opponent in combat is a standard action.You are in combat as soon as initiative is rolled. Before, actually.

How Combat Works

Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:

1. Each combatant starts out flat-footed. Once a combatant acts, he or she is no longer flat-footed.
2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents at the start of the battle. If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds of combat begin. The combatants who are aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take one action (either a standard action or a move action) during the surprise round. Combatants who were unaware do not get to act in the surprise round. If no one or everyone starts the battle aware, there is no surprise round.
3. Combatants who have not yet rolled initiative do so. All combatants are now ready to begin their first regular round of combat.
4. Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5. When everyone has had a turn, the combatant with the highest initiative acts again, and steps 4 and 5 repeat until combat ends.You do not get to cast a spell in the presence of an opponent until it is your turn. It is not your turn until the steps above have been followed and they determine that it is your turn. This process is called "How Combat Works", not "How to get free wishes out of an efreet and obtain global domination."

Please note that the first quote does not read "Demoralizing an opponent in combat is a standard action." The act of intimidation takes only a standard action. At that point, you are treated as friendly. Friends don't cast spells on friends. This is not changing your behavior, it is natural behavior. Then after one minute of further conversation your behavior is changed.


As you can perfectly well see, changing attitude to friendly is called "changing another's behaviour" and calls for "1 minute of interaction".To use your own words: You either have trouble reading the SRD, or are deliberately misleading. The first sentence is not describing the start of a process, it is describing an option. Then the breakdown of how things work occurs. Intimidation, were it to always take a full minute other than the demoralizing option, would never be a viable option. The GM could simply say as you began your minute "The NPC attacks", and there goes any use of the ability to change behavior. Even a Demoralization followed by an attempt to change behavior would always fail if the target simply choose combat as a response. Your interpretation makes no sense at all.

It's all moot anyway, because the Efreet will be paralysed by Ghoul Glyph on arrival.You must mean "My next character will try this another way", because this one didn't list that spell that isn't in the D20srd as being a part of his method. I can't refute whatever you're asserting this spell does, because I don't own whatever source book it comes from. But I can point to your process as not having included this spell. This character is a tasty efreet lunch, and perhaps the GM and the other players are tired of you by now and you can try your revised method in someone else's game.


You have no idea what "friendly" attitude means, do you?
Go read PHB p. 72 on NPC attitudes.
You know, your habit of asserting something with no support is becoming annoying. You can't make a point by saying "I'm right, you're wrong. Go read this thing over here", I like many people don't carry my books everywhere I go. But I'll help you out, again.


Friendly Wishes you well Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate
Note that "Cast spells upon" is not listed as an example. Nor is dominating, not coercing, not blackmailing for wishes. It looks like you are the one with no idea what "friendly" attitude means.


At lvl 1 my Cleric has powers way above any fighter. With Rebuke, high Cha and Extra Turning he can easily dominate massive undead encounters resulting in cheap XP and loot.Again, you're assuming that your GM offers you a perfectly easy challenge for your build. And if the GM has a few living NPC casters in with the undead, such as the caster who created them, or his minions? You are toast. Heck, if the graveyard the undead are at has a few poisonous snakes, or if some of the undead have missile weapons, you are toast.

I think the point Horatio was trying to make was that any character build, even the Fighter or evocation casters you disdain, can achieve Total and Complete World Domination, if they are allowed to design the encounters they have to face.

[The Minx]

Yes, it does. And by the way "Oh, LOL" is not a supporting argument.
Again, becomming larger is not in any way violating the restrictions of the spell. The spell specifically notes what happens if the circle is too small, and specifically prohibits certain actions while within the circle. Casting Enlarge is not prohibited, as that casting does not have to cross the circle. The effect of that casting is that the circle becomes too small, but that's not either directly or indirectly "disturbing" the circle, which is a permanent drawn diagram as described by you. Even were it to be only a circle of powdered silver, there is nothing in the rules to support that this circle would be disturbed simply because a huge creature was standing over it.

First, as per the above, you are incorrect. Second, even with a mere + 4 for starting out Large the efreet has a very high probability of Intimidating you. So in either case, prepare to be lunch.
You can wriggle, but you can't get away.

If the Efreet is making himself too large for the circle, he is crossing the circle's boundary indirectly. Crossing the circle indirectly is forbidden.

It would be a pretty useless containment spell which could be breached by a simple casting of Enlarge, anyway.

[BillyJimBoBob]

If the Efreet is making himself too large for the circle, he is crossing the circle's boundary indirectly. Crossing the circle indirectly is forbidden.

It would be a pretty useless containment spell which could be breached by a simple casting of Enlarge, anyway.You are reading things which are not there. Crossing the circle indirectly is not forbidden. What is forbidden is directly or indirectly disturbing the circle.

And Enlarge making the circle useless for certain sized being just kind of comes with the territory, as warned in the spell description.

A magic circle leaves much to be desired as a trap.It works as billed, no better and no worse. Those who wish to accept the limitations may find creatures which have no means to exploit the weaknesses, or they may suffer the consequences of their hubris.

[The Minx]

You are reading things which are not there. Crossing the circle indirectly is not forbidden. What is forbidden is directly or indirectly disturbing the circle.

And Enlarge making the circle useless for certain sized being just kind of comes with the territory, as warned in the spell description.

It works as billed, no better and no worse. Those who wish to accept the limitations may find creatures which have no means to exploit the weaknesses, or they may suffer the consequences of their hubris.

I find it interesting how you snip sentences from the spell description out of context. The claim that it "leaves much to be desired as a trap" only comes before a discussion of things which might break the trap, and the subject is specifically stated not to be able to cross the barrier:


The creature cannot cross the circle’s boundaries.

So, once inside the circle, the creature cannot cross the barrier. Therefore, it cannot cast Enlarge to enable it to cross the barrier.

As for the size issue:


If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only.

If a creature too large for the circle is the subject of the spell. Applies to creatures when the spell is cast.

[SoC175]

It would be a pretty useless containment spell which could be breached by a simple casting of Enlarge, anyway.
Well, there's always the option of applying widen spell a few times if you want to call and bind something really large.

But I agree that once something is within the circle it can not escape by merely increasing it's size. It could increase it's size as far as the rules for squeezing allow (having to squeeze into the circle as the extended size can't cross the circle) and maybe getting damage if it gets bigger than allowed by the squeezing rules.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Well, there's always the option of applying widen spell a few times if you want to call and bind something really large.

But I agree that once something is within the circle it can not escape by merely increasing it's size. It could increase it's size as far as the rules for squeezing allow (having to squeeze into the circle as the extended size can't cross the circle) and maybe getting damage if it gets bigger than allowed by the squeezing rules.

I remember from an old comic in the magazine Heavy Metal where a wizard summoned two demons. When they appeared in a magic circle, they looked down and roared at the foolish mortal who had summoned them. then they noticed that they were about the size of small children...

Turns out the wizard drew the magic circle too small... The two were locked in their smaller size until they were released, which didn't happen until the end to the story... Maybe. It's been over 20 years since I read that particular issue. :smallwink:

[keybounce]

The deal is a scam for sure. We all know what really is the TRUE key to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER, and it certainly is not a bunch of second-hand* epic spellcasters' souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html).

* second-body, actually.
The four words:
"Give Me The Doily"
("and no one gets hurt" :-)

[Silverraptor]

Just remember guys that the doiley gives Ultimate Cosmic Power while V is after Ultimate *Arcane* Power

[Rockphed]

Does the Giant prefer typos to be reported in the forum, or via email?

Anyway minor typo in the first panel of the third row: "arane" instead of "arcane".

I just noticed the Typo myself. Normally, typo's get reported in the thread and the Giant posts the correction, but he might not have seen your post, which was the only post with the word "arane" in this thread. Well, now there are two.

Anyway, I love the fiends. They make me smile.

[BillyJimBoBob]

I find it interesting how you snip sentences from the spell description out of context.And I find it interesting how you read things into the rules which simply are not there. I also find it interesting that you claim that my snipping out of context is "interesting", and then go ahead and do it yourself. Check the mirror, your hypocrisy is showing.

I could post the entire SRD spell description, and I suspect you'd still invent things which are not there.

The claim that it "leaves much to be desired as a trap" only comes before a discussion of things which might break the trap[...]Who cares in what order it is written? It's purely flavor text in any event, a warning that the spell has some large limitations.

So, once inside the circle, the creature cannot cross the barrier. Therefore, it cannot cast Enlarge to enable it to cross the barrier.You are adding things which do not exist to the spell description. The spell prohibits crossing the barrier, yes. The spell prohibits casting spells which cross the barrier, yes. But the spell description does not in any way prohibit the creature encircled from casting spells. Or it would say so in the spell description. And casting a spell on yourself is not casting a spell which crosses the circle, the target of Enlarge Person is "One humanoid creature", and the Efreeti MM entry allows the Efreeti to cast it on himself as well as humanoid creatures. The spell is cast within the circle, perfectly legally, and the target is within the circle, also perfectly legally.
The fact that this makes the efreet too large for the circle is fortuitous, and causes the Magic Circle against Evil to be reduced to acting as a Protection from Evil. This is quite simply a means to realize that the Magic Circle against Evil leaves much to be desired as a trap.

If you decide to add additional casting prohibitions which are not at all in the spell description then you have made the spell too powerful, and you have made it a house rule spell. This is not either RAW or RAI.

As for the size issue:
If a creature too large for the circle is the subject of the spell. Applies to creatures when the spell is cast.Yet another invention of yours. "Applies to creatures when the spell is cast" is no part of the spell description, while "If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only" is right there in the spell description, with no "only check upon casting" limitation even hinted at.

Wouldn't you cry foul if your GM said "Well, it's now round 2, and the efreet was only the subject of the Magic Circle against Evil spell in the round in which is was summoned. So now it freely steps across the circle."? I suspect that you would, and rightly so. The same non-instantaneous provisions apply to the size limitation of the Magic Circle against Evil. You can't ask that the efreet remain the subject of the spell for one purpose which suits you and not remain the subject of the spell for another purpose which does not suit you. That's looking for an unwarranted advantage.

If you want to make stuff up, then you can do all kinds of wonderful things with all kinds of spells. There are plenty of spells which are broken right out of the box, there is no need to add to this list by modifying spell text and context.

[The Minx]

And I find it interesting how you read things into the rules which simply are not there. I also find it interesting that you claim that my snipping out of context is "interesting", and then go ahead and do it yourself. Check the mirror, your hypocrisy is showing.

What, exactly did you hope to accomplish with this? I pointed out that you had quoted out of context: my post was to show what you had left out.


I could post the entire SRD spell description, and I suspect you'd still invent things which are not there.
Who cares in what order it is written? It's purely flavor text in any event, a warning that the spell has some large limitations.

The people who read the text should.


You are adding things which do not exist to the spell description. The spell prohibits crossing the barrier, yes. The spell prohibits casting spells which cross the barrier, yes. But the spell description does not in any way prohibit the creature encircled from casting spells. Or it would say so in the spell description. And casting a spell on yourself is not casting a spell which crosses the circle, the target of Enlarge Person is "One humanoid creature", and the Efreeti MM entry allows the Efreeti to cast it on himself as well as humanoid creatures. The spell is cast within the circle, perfectly legally, and the target is within the circle, also perfectly legally.
The fact that this makes the efreet too large for the circle is fortuitous, and causes the Magic Circle against Evil to be reduced to acting as a Protection from Evil. This is quite simply a means to realize that the Magic Circle against Evil leaves much to be desired as a trap.

No, I am reading exactly what the spell description says. The creature contained within the circle cannot cross it. Therefore, it cannot enlarge itself to do so. If it is contained within the circle and then becomes too large to fit within the circle, the area it occupies has now crossed to the other side of the circle, whereas it did not do so previously. Not being able to cross the barrier applies whether it tries to use mundane or magical means, otherwise the limitation would be specified.


If you decide to add additional casting prohibitions which are not at all in the spell description then you have made the spell too powerful, and you have made it a house rule spell. This is not either RAW or RAI.

I am not adding anything. I am inferring what is possible based on the restrictions specified.


IYet another invention of yours. "Applies to creatures when the spell is cast" is no part of the spell description, while "If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only" is right there in the spell description, with no "only check upon casting" limitation even hinted at.

No, I am inferring, not inventing. The phrase "a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell" could be interpreted either as the spell is cast or at any point during the spell's duration. However, the fact that the creature cannot cross the circle shows that your interpretation is wrong, since otherwise it would lead to a contradiction.


IWouldn't you cry foul if your GM said "Well, it's now round 2, and the efreet was only the subject of the Magic Circle against Evil spell in the round in which is was summoned. So now it freely steps across the circle."? I suspect that you would, and rightly so. The same non-instantaneous provisions apply to the size limitation of the Magic Circle against Evil. You can't ask that the efreet remain the subject of the spell for one purpose which suits you and not remain the subject of the spell for another purpose which does not suit you. That's looking for an unwarranted advantage.

If you want to make stuff up, then you can do all kinds of wonderful things with all kinds of spells. There are plenty of spells which are broken right out of the box, there is no need to add to this list by modifying spell text and context.

That is nothing like what I am doing.

[Horatio@Bridge]

From what I've seen, I'd say that both interpretations of the spell would be valid. It's a niche enough case that it's probably best left in the DM's hands. You get a lot of neat scenes from watching the Efreet mash against the invisible walls of the circle, but you also get a lot of neat scenes from watching the Efreet grin wickedly, grow really big, and then eat the foolish mortal who summoned it (both fit quite well in the fantasy archetypes that the game is based on).

Which basically mean--consult your DM about this before trying it. But I don't think anyone's doing anything wrong by assuming one application or another.

And thanks for the summary of my position, BJBB. I wish I could have thought of that phrasing myself. It would have saved me a bunch of writing. :-p

[snafu]

Does the efreet have to enlarge itself in proportion? I mean, it's an ancient spirit of fire, it doesn't have to remain particularly humanoid. And the circle's just a region of floor, but I don't think it has a ceiling. The efreet can enlarge itself upwards, perhaps becoming a dreadful genie, slender and stretched in an uncanny and disturbing manner, declaring its displeasure at you from the top of a great column of flame, having blasted the roof off the building in its wrath at your insolence... Since the purpose of enlarging itself is to become more intimidating, I'd say that would be pretty damn effective.

(Interestingly enough, the Enlarge person description on d20srd.org says that it doubles the height, but does not mention the other two dimensions. It multiplies the weight by 8, so proportional expansion is strongly implied by the cube law, but it's not actually explicit...)

[Undead Prince]

Build v. 2.0


This is an indepth look on starting and playing the first six levels. There's much more beyond these six levels; however, even at this point you gain an extreme amount of power.

Consideration of maximising simplicity were possible was taken into account. E.g. ordinary Human instead of exotic Aasimar used for Race; no Flaws, Traits, or Taint used; no reliance on finding exotic/expensive magic items in shops.

It's a very recent work, so there might be holes. Also, pardon the language - obviously wasn't going for Nobel in Literature here.

The basic idea behind the build is - why do something yourself, when you can have others do it for you with much better results; and - why share when you can keep everything to yourself.

Start as Human Middle-Aged cleric of a cause.

Alignment: Chaotic Evil :smallamused:

Class: Cleric

Deity: Cause.
Now the rules are not exactly clear on clerics of a cause, in particular domain portfolios of causes. Normally deities have 3-4 domains. In this build, we’re shooting for a portfolio of Domination, Undeath, Hunger, and Fire. Describe your Cause in a manner consistent with your alignment and the Domains (e.g. you worship hunger for total power through fiery destruction and undeath).

Domains you take at 1st level: Domination, Undeath.
Apply Spontaneous Domain Casting from PHB II to Domination domain.

Stats:
STR 8
DEX 8
CON 8
INT 14
WIS 19
CHA 16
(32 point buy, includes Middle-Aged boni & mali).

Feats: Heighten Spell, Divine Metamagic: Heighten
(+Spell Focus: Enchantment and Extra Turning from domains).

Skills: Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana, religion, the planes), Diplomacy.

1. Take Cleric starting package (keeping it simple). However, instead of Heavy mace (you won’t be meleeing much with this build) take its cost (12 gp).

2. Since you now have (12 + 1d4) 14 gp 5 sp of pocket money, use it to hire 10 Mercenary warriors for 7 days. Preferably in a Lawful neutral town, as evil can’t be trusted and good won’t like you being evil (which they’ll find out soon enough).

3. Promise them Hazard pay from the loot you’re going to get (this only amounts to 14 more gp), and make Diplomacy checks to make them Friendly to you beyond the contractual relationship, so that you’re a good team and they don’t try to cheat you. With 4 ranks in Diplomacy, +3 Cha and +1 Guidance cantrip, your check is 1d20 +8 vs. DC 15, i.e. you should reliably become friends with 6-7 out of 10 Mercenaries.

4. The Mercs come fully equipped - every Warrior already has an average of 750 gp worth of equipment on him, so you don’t need to buy them anything extra. This means they sport Banded mail, Heavy shields, and an assortment of weapons. Tell them to pick some Bludgeoning (Warhammers and Heavy flails) as you’re going to be battling undead. Don’t forget that each should have a ranged weapon (preferably composite longbows). If possible, get one with a Tower shield to be your shieldbearer, providing total concealment.

5. At 1st level, the Merc Warrior is basically a Fighter with 1d8 hp, no extra feat, and lower ability scores (probably around 14 STR, 12 DEX, 12 CON, very low for mentals). They have decent attack bonus (+3, +4 if they have Weapon Focus in their chosen weapon, +5 counting your Bless) and high AC (10 +6 Banded Mail, +2 HvyShld, +1 Dex = 19). There’s many of them, so they’ll always be Flanking (+2 attack, making it +7 total). A volley from their longbows is a great way to start a fight.

6. The best thing about Mercs, like all Hirelings, is that they don’t cut into the XP. Whoever they kill, you get all the XP. You also get all the loot, but I suggest giving them a good cut to keep them happy.

7. Now go to the nearest undead dungeon and start harvesting XP. With 10 Rebukes per day at 16 Cha, you’ll be dominating these encounters. Unlike Turn, Rebuke doesn’t make undead run away, but rather rivets them in place for 10 rounds – more than enough for your Mercs to batter them to dust. Rebuked undead also get -2 AC for cowering, making this even easier. At level 1 you can reliably Rebuke undead creatures of 1-2 HD (e.g. human skeletons and zombies), but there’s a 25% chance you’ll be able to turn 3 or 4 HD undeads. Since you have many turn attempts, don’t be afraid to spam them if suddenly faced with a wight. You’ll be Rebuking an average total of 11 HD of undead per rebuke (5 zombies and a skel, or 11 skels, or 2 wights etc). Just don’t engage the undead in melee personally, or you’ll end the rebuke effect.

8. Keep your Mercs in formation (e.g. 4 shieldbearing tanks, 2 two-handed flankers, 3 halberdiers with reach weapons, 1 bodyguard with Tower shield) to maximize effectiveness in close quarters. If it ever gets hard, use Bless. May keep a Vision of Heaven (Daze for 1 round) for any particularly nasty living opponent you may encounter (necromancer dwelling in the crypts?) – with your Spell Focus and Divine Metamagic: Heighten he will surely fail the saving throw, and while he’s Dazed your Mercs will pincushion him.

9. With loot (and even a lvl 1 encounter is supposed to give 300 gp) pay off your hirelings for the hazards they endured, and secure their services for further cooperation. Since now you can easily afford it, hire Cavalrymen who come with horses.

10. Once you reach Lvl 2 (and you should very quickly, remember, you’re soloing), immediately Command two skeletons, who are now your unquestioning servants forever (or until better undead come along). Make them your personal, unsleeping bodyguards.

11. At lvl 3, pick feat Quicken Spell or Twin Spell or Repeat Spell (depends; more on that later). You also get access to 2nd lvl spells, which notably include Enthrall and Substitute Domain (Complete Champion).

12. Enthrall is a great battlefield controller: it targets everyone in sight, lasts for more than an hour, and makes all enemies either friendly or indifferent towards you and your team. Creatures of 4 or more HD get a new saving throw every time they notice something they don’t like, but the save is at the same DC as the spell, i.e. >20, so all enemies with Will +0 (e.g. Ogres) are automatically Enthralled until they manage to roll a 20. Even assuming a new check takes place every round, you still have enough time to strategically place your Mercs and subject the enemies to brutal attacks. Another good use of this spell is stealing stuff from people (hire experts-thieves to do that). If you choose to end the spell by performing hostile acts towards targets, the formerly enthralled have their attitude changed to unfriendly (not hostile), i.e. as per RAW they shouldn’t attack you. All in all, a great spell. Moreover, it’s on the Domination domain list, so you can spontaneously convert any 2nd lvl spell into Enthrall.

13. Cast Substitute Domain and choose Hunger instead of Undeath. Prepare “Ghoul Glyph” – a no-save paralysis trap spell, rest. Now go to location of a powerful but stupid monster you’d like to slay, cast Ghoul Glyph, dismiss Substitute Domain (which will return you the Undeath Extra Turning power), attract the monster’s attention with your Mercs and their longbows. Cast Enthrall to make him Indifferent, then safely cast Command:Approach (with help of your Divine Metamagic: Heighten, both spells will succeed vs. something like CR 7 Ogre Barbarian (Will +2), unless he rolls a 20).

14. The trick here is that the Ogre will be Approaching you through a double row of your Mercs, who will all have AoOs on him with Flanking bonus, and in the end he’ll step right onto the Ghoul Glyph (remember, no-save paralysis; it’s also invisible). All that’s left is Coup-de-gras the poor critter into oblivion. This will put you straight to 4th level.

15. At 4th level get +1 WIS (for a nice round total of 20). Otherwise, repeat the above tricks to get easy XP and loot. Collect corpses of most powerful enemies for future use.

16. At 5th level is where you begin doing the Vampire/Efreeti Gambit.

17. Start by using your new Animate Dead spell to make yourself some decent undead minions in addition to the Commanded skeletons (of which you now have 5). Construct a death-worshipping altar in your lair and cast Desecrate. Sacrifice someone on the altar (can be a rat, but preferably a beautiful human virgin) and cast Death Knell while the Sacrifice’s bleeding to death. Now you can Animate a 24 HD skeleton or zombie who will be in your service forever. He will also get +2 hp per level, which coupled with his d12 hit dice makes him a tough bugger. An Adult Red Dragon is a good candidature for zombification here. If you have trouble obtaining corpses of that magnitude, make do with two 12 HD ones or something. Consider the fact that Skeletons keep proficiencies, and Zombies keep Natural armor + get an AC bonus based on size. For low-HD creatures such as human warriors, skels are more useful; for large, high-HD creatures zombies are better – zombie dragons can even fly. However, I digress – this is not an Undead guide. Point is, you now have some very powerful minions.

18. Use your new army to reach lvl 6. (yeah, it’s lame, I’m thinking on how to spice it up). At this point you should have around 13,000 gp worth of treasure from all the killing (DMG, p. 135). We’ll only need a small fraction of that, though.

19. LEVEL 6: Take the Paragnostic Apostle PrC (CChamp). You qualify with your three Knowledge skills. Take See through the Veil as your “Knowledge is Power”. Now you are considered 2 levels higher for Rebuking, without loss of spellcasting or rebuking power.

20. Take “Divine Metamagic: Twin spell” feat.

21. Buy potions of Owl’s Wisdom and Eagle’s Splendour. Cast Substitute Domain Undeath -> Hunger, prepare “Ghoul Glyph”.

22. Approach an 11th lvl Wizard who offers spellcasting services (You should be able to find several of those in any Large city or Metropolis, see p. 139 of the DMG).

23. Make a Diplomacy check with the Wizard: by now you have 9 ranks, +5 from Charisma augmented by Eagle’s Splendour, +1 from Guidance = 1d20 +15 vs. DC 15, i.e. 100% success. Now the Wizard’s attitude is Friendly, and he will be genuinely willing to help you in addition to being a tradesman who offers his services for sale.

24. Choose a good isolated location such as cellar, with one small window that allows to look in from an adjacent room.

25. Cast Ghoul Glyph on point of summoning. The Glyph is permanent so you can now rest and cast it again, on a second point of summoning. Dismiss Substitute Domain. Take in your Undead minions “to help defend from Efreet if anything goes wrong). Cast Death Knell to raise your caster level to 7. Pay the Wizard 1430 gp to cast Magic Circle (with diagram), Dimensional Anchor, and Planar Binding (Efreeti).

26. Once the Efreeti arrives, he’ll be paralysed (no save) by the Ghoul Glyph. While he can’t perform any actions for 1d6 +2 rounds (average 5), you cast Prayer, a few Dooms to Shake him, and finally Suggestion, augmented by Divine Metamagic: Heighten, to share his vast Wishing wealth with yourself in exchange for proceeds from one Wish, but only on the condition that he does not perform any actions for the following 7 hours (the length of your Suggestion) except granting you 3 Wishes.

27. Your 3 Wishes are: a Phylactery of Undead Turning, a Rod of Defiance, and a Nightstick. Each of these ordinary magical items costs less than 25,000 gp, so should be received with no problems. As a supernatural ability, Wishes granted by Efreet do not have an XP cost.

28. Now ask the Wizard to summon another Efreeti on the second Ghoul Glyph (you've got the money to pay him). With the Nightstick you have 4 more uses of Turn Undead to power your Divine Metamagic: Heighten for the Suggestion.

29. Your second 3 Wishes are: Sacred Armor, Sacred Shield, Flametouched Holy Symbol. Cast Substitute Domain: Undeath -> Fire.

30. Now you can COMMAND Efreet, as your level for purposes of turning/rebuking is 20, and Efreet have 10 HD. Command the two Efreet immediately. They are now your loyal servants and will not think of taking any revenge upon you, but will gladly offer you 6 wishes per day.

31. With this kind of power you don't need the Wizard anymore. You may bid him farewell and leave.

32. However, if he is unwise enough not to be immune from mind-affecting (something that can be found out with the help of Efreeti's Telepathy, or a Wish), you can use the Wish to cast Dominate Person on him, augmented by your DMM:Twin Spell for good measure. With the Wish’s innate DC of 19, +7 from your WIS (spell’s on your Domination spell list), +1 from Spell Focus you have DC 28 vs. his +6 Will save (might be +7 or +8 if the wizard for some reason has high Wisdom, but this still doesn’t save), and Twin Spell, a non-immune Wizard has no chance.

33. With the new items you can now Command Vampires (a total of 20 HD, each max 10 HD). Unfortunately, these nice creatures can’t be made with your Wizard’s Create Undead, so you’ll have to use a Wish to get them. The Wish can transport 1 creature per caster level, Will Save for the unwilling. A 5th lvl human fighter – Vampire, featured in the MM, only has a Will Save of 4, vs. the Wish’s DC of 26 (if using your Wisdom score), or 19 (if not using it). So one or two Wishes should get you enough Vampires to get started. Otherwise, you can find them on your own – with help of your Wizard slave and many undead buddies, of course. The Vamps should be lurking in any decent crypt, and by this point the meager dangers of such crypts are nothing to you.

34. The benefit of Vampires is twofold. First, they can turn NPCs into vampires, which will be loyal servants of these master vampires - and consequently, loyal servants of you. Vampires indirectly controlled in this manner do not count towards your undead pool - so you can have as many as you like. Second, Vampires have the interesting Dominate ability at will with DC = 10 + ½ HD + Cha bonus. Considering the Vampire template to give +4 Charisma, by vampirising high-charisma characters (sorcerers, bards, clerics, favored souls, warlocks) your undead pets will have approximately 22 Cha, +4 from Eagle’s Splendour = 26. Thus, the DC for the gaze attack will = 23 (or 20 for 5HD vampires). As per the Monster Manual core rulebook, the Vampire’s Dominate ability functions like Dominate Person but affects anyone. I.e. it works like the Dominate Monster spell (which itself is a Dominate Person that affects any creature). Not to mention they get to keep all class levels – e.g. your new 10HD vampires may be 10th level Sorcerers to boot.

35. With this force at your command, you’re now a total master of the Efreeti: two gaze attacks per round at DC 23 can Dominate with 90% probability one Efreeti every round. In a minute you’ll have 10 Dominated Efreeti. Use their Wishes to Planar Bind more Efreeti! Remember, you can keep as many Efreeti as you want imprisoned in Magic circles, and the vampire’s Dominate ability lasts for twelve days! After which you can just gaze the Efreeti into submission again.

36. Once you feel you have enough Efreeti working for you, start using the Wishes to get money (25,000 gp per Wish), artifacts, +5 to all stats.

37. Also use this to cast nice spells, such as Finger of Death + Animate Ju-Ju Zombie + Tongues on your Dominated Mage to give you a faithful Undead wizard slave (for FoD, tell him to fail his saving throw if DC 19 vs Save +3 not good enough for you). Repeat on other Dominated targets to get yourself a decent coterie of wizards/clerics/whoever, in addition to your ever-growing Vampire army.

38. Continue using Wishes to give your army magic weapons, armor, and items, as well as ability enhancements for your most powerful minions. Don’t forget to cast anti-scrying and dimension locks over your lair, and make use of the Wish’s Prescience ability so that you don’t easily get bothered by any opposition the Dungeon Master decides to send against you.

39. Enjoy knowledge that at character level 6 you’ve already surpassed every other OOTS character, including Xykon (despite all his Epicness). And yet this is only the beginning!

Step 2: The XP-MACHINE – to be continued!

[LeslieR]

The deal is for Each Specific Fiend having possession of V's soul for an amount of time equal to the amount of time V holds the soul-splice, cumulative to each fiend. The deal makes No Mention of handing V's soul over to the higher planes once this specified period is complete. Even if the OOtS isn't operating in a campaign-world where striking a bargain with Fiends in and of itself is a 'Go to Hell, go Directly to Hell, Do not pass Purgatory, do not collect 200 Indulgences' act then more than likely more than a few puppies will get kicked as part of the collateral damage when V takes on the ABD.


"Good news! Today is your last day as the warden's personal butt-toy. The Bad News is that tomorrow we're turning you out into general populace."


Personally I still see 'the wrong reason' being that the ABD never actually intended direct harm to V's offspring, but was just using the threat of same to goad V on as part of a Xanatos Gambit.

V/Ganonron: Greater Teleport!

ABD: You're too late, I've already slain your family and devoured all trace of them, now I shall remove myself and your delightful children's souls from this plane of existance. Plane-Shift!

V/Ganonron: Ganonron's Trans-Dimensional Retrieval!

ABD: *pops back* What? Immpossible!

V/Ganonron: Greater Dimensional Anchor.

ABD: *looks a bit green* Very well, Disintigrate!

V: *flies out of the way* You believe one such as I may be so simply dispathed? Lightening-Bolt!

ABD: *is missed cleanly* I see that your aim has not improved.

V/Jephton: Oh yeah? Well close counts when it's a Fireball!

ABD: GAH!

Innocent Villager: My House!

V/Jephton: Fireball!

ABD: Arrgh!

Innocent Villager: Our School!

V/Jephton: Fireball-Fireball-Fireball! Hee-hee, and another Fireball!

ABD: Uhh.....

Innocent Villagers: AIEEEEEEEE!!

V: Now, give me back the souls of my adopted offspring. Give them Back do you hear? Give them Ba...

V/Haera:...they're, they're not here! You don't have their souls. You don't have Any soul!

ABD: Heh-heh, I knew you were not as clever as you appeared, but even I may have over-estimated you if it took you this long to figure it out.

V: Detect Illusion!

Illusory ABD: I had anticipated that you would beseech the imp for aid when I left, that is why I prepared this illusory distraction so that my true plan could commence apace. I must admit though, a Soul-Splice? I had no idea you had such friends in low places.

V: What have you Done?

Illusory ABD: Oh nothing Bizzare, nothing Grotesque... yet. Dispell Greater Illusion.

Illusory ABD: *POP!*

V: RRAAAAARRRRRGH!

V/Haera: Mass Re-animate Dead!

Innocent Villagers: BRAAAAAAAAINS.....

V: Go forth now and search far and wide, we Must find her and my family before it is too late.

Innocent Zombie Villagers: *shamble-off* BRAAAAAAAAINS....

V: Time IS Of the Essence... um.. People?

V/Jephton: Mass Haste!

Innocent Zombie VillagerS: BRAINZZZZZZ!! *ZOOM!*

V/Haera: Good help is so hard to kill these days.

=============================

*On a secluded hilltop over-looking the tragic fate of the quaint elf-villiage, seeing on V and his/her actions and not the illusory ABD*

V's mate: What..? Oh, my dear Varsarius, what have you done?

V's 1st kid: Parent? What is Other-Parent doing?

V's 2nd kid: Other-Parent is scaring me! *sob*

V's mate: Don't look children, oh please don't look...

Mysterious Stranger: I am sorry you had to witness this, but as I told you, Varsarrius' pursuit of ultimate arcane power has left them mad.

V's mate: I.. I see that now. Th-thank you for showing me the truth.

Mysterious Stranger: What will you do now?

V's mate: *sniff* I.. I must confront my mate, perhaps they are not too far gone, but I Must know. Please, I know it is too much to ask, but will you look out for the children untill.. if.. I come back?

Mysterious Stranger: I shall, go, they will be safe.

V's mate: *sniffle* Thank you, I shall not forget this. *turns to leave.*

Mysterious Stranger: I shall look after them...

Mysterious Suddenly-Green-Eyed Stranger: ...as if they were my very own.

[Undead Prince]

BillyJimBoBob

Even were it to be only a circle of powdered silver, there is nothing in the rules to support that this circle would be disturbed simply because a huge creature was standing over it.

if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it. However, the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly.

By standing on the diagram the Efreeti is disturbing it. And he WILL be standing ON the diagram because he occupies its space. It would also have disturbed the silver dust, so another prohibition violated.

Also, in the process of enlargement his growing body would have crossed it while physically touching it.

The creature cannot cross the circle’s boundaries.

By becoming larger, the Efreeti has physically crossed the circle's boundaries. Through his own actions, the Efreeti's body has physically crossed the boundaries. However you put it, it's a violation.

A simple analogy: a man with his hands outstretched is wider than with them folded. So outstretching increases his size (in terms of width). Standing still, he may fit in a certain circle; but once he outstretches his hands, becoming wider than the circle, he crosses the circle. Which is forbidden:

"The creature cannot reach across the magic circle".





Please note that the first quote does not read "Demoralizing an opponent in combat is a standard action." The act of intimidation takes only a standard action.


1. "You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly." "Changing another’s behavior requires 1 minute of interaction."

2. Demoralizing an opponent in combat IS an act of intimidation. It is an application of the skill Intimidate. It is applied in combat. So the rules say: "Intimidating an opponent in combat". It requires 1 standard action and is CONTRASTED to changing another’s behavior which requires 1 minute of interaction.

3. Moreover, the phrase "You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you is under the Demoralizing section and further proves that RAW and RAI the only application of Intimidate in combat is Demoralizing.

3. Just to be clear. Demoralizing an opponent only causes the Shaken condition. That's it. "Changing another's behaviour" causes shift of attitude to friendly, and it requires 1 minute of interaction.


At that point, you are treated as friendly. Friends don't cast spells on friends. This is not changing your behavior, it is natural behavior. Then after one minute of further conversation your behavior is changed.

This is completely incoherent. By "you", do you mean the targeted NPC or the Intimidating PC? You seem to think that "changing behaviour" and changing attitude to friendly are two different things, whereas in fact it is the same action: changing the NPC's behaviour means changing his attitude to friendly.



Intimidation, were it to always take a full minute other than the demoralizing option, would never be a viable option. The GM could simply say as you began your minute "The NPC attacks", and there goes any use of the ability to change behavior.

Diplomacy, just like Intimidate, requires a minute of interaction to influence behaviour. In the case of Diplomacy, however, the rules explicitely provide for a "rushed Diplomacy check" which is made as a full-round action at -10 penalty. There is no such provision for the Intimidate skill. Changing another's behaviour requires 1 minute of interaction. The application of Intimidate in combat at the cost of 1 standard action causes the Shaken condition and is called "Demoralizing an opponent".

And in fact, taking your interpretation would really break the skill and the game.

For Diplomacy, you have to take a full-round action and beat a DC of 45 to change attitude from Hostile to Friendly. This is impossible at lower levels for ordinary builds (in fact, for a completely straight build that relies only on ranks and CHA, it's hard even at level 20 with 20 CHA, considering near impossibilty of rerolls), and early in the game is only achievable by a super-optimised char at least several levels high.

If we take your view that Intimidate can be applied in combat to "change another's behaviour" at the cost of 1 standard action, a level 1 Fighter with 4 ranks and 0 CHA bonus would have a 65% chance to make an equal-level hostile his friend, at the cost of 1 standard action, with unlimited uses per day. It's like the 4th level spell "Charm Monster", but unlimited use. This would make him a better battlefield controller and manipulator than a 7th level wizard (particularly if he's armed with a Reach weapon and operates from behind the backs of his comrades).


Even a Demoralization followed by an attempt to change behavior would always fail if the target simply choose combat as a response.

First, if you're attempting to Demoralize an NPC it means you're alrealdy in combat, as Demoralize can only be used against an opponent in combat.

Second, a successful Demoralize only makes a target Shaken, so it does not preclude the NPC from continuing to attack you.

However, this is all moot, because as I already said,

1. The Efreet does not threaten me in melee combat, and as such cannot use the "Intimidate an opponent in combat" option;

2. The Efreet does not have 10 rounds to make the "change behaviour" check, and

3. The Efreet is paralysed by the Ghoul Glyph and cannot take actions.


You must mean "My next character will try this another way", because this one didn't list that spell that isn't in the D20srd as being a part of his method.

In the previous version, the spell was obtained through "Divine Magician", and it was listed as an option for a Human, or for an Aasimar if you took a Flaw. In the new version, it is obtained through "Substitute Domain" spell.


I can't refute whatever you're asserting this spell does, because I don't own whatever source book it comes from.

You don't have the Spell Compendium? That's a real loss.







Friendly Wishes you well Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate
Note that "Cast spells upon" is not listed as an example. Nor is dominating, not coercing, not blackmailing for wishes. It looks like you are the one with no idea what "friendly" attitude means.

What the hell? YOU were the one who wrote:


He then uses 1 minute to change your behavior so that you'll willingly break the circle, attack the mage, whatever he likes. You have no options as long as you remain in his presence, and as a friend his first request is that you stick around, as you and he will be having a lot of fun in a little while.

Implying that simply by changing my character attitude to "friendly" the Efreeti could get him, a level 5 cleric, to attack his friend - a level 11 Wizard, and that basically my character would be Dominated ("have no options" except do "whatever [the Efreeti] likes"). You obviously did not read the description of "Friendly" in the PHB.

And now you're trying to say that I'm the one misunderstanding this attitude? I never said that being friendly equals to being Dominated, or that friendliness will be enough to "coerce" Wishes from an Efreeti. My character used Diplomacy merely to smoothen the deals, which were actually made either through economy (i.e. paying money for goods and services) or magic (i.e. high-DC Suggestion)


Again, you're assuming that your GM offers you a perfectly easy challenge for your build.

I was just enumerating the character's strengths, not assuming anything. Of course, as the character will himself seek the places to raid, so he will choose whether to go to an obviously too dangerous place or not, based on available information.


And if the GM has a few living NPC casters in with the undead, such as the caster who created them, or his minions?

This PRECISE situation (a necromancer in a crypt) is mentioned in the build, and one of the answers is keep a Vision of Heaven handy to daze the bugger while your Mercs kill him.


Heck, if the graveyard the undead are at has a few poisonous snakes, or if some of the undead have missile weapons, you are toast.

Vs. missile weapons: the Mercs and myself are equipped with heavy armor and shields, they have missile weapons themselves, my char Rebukes Undead, and I also suggested a dedicated bodyguard with a Tower shield which would provide total cover for the cleric.

Vs. snakes - you mean medium vipers (CR 1)? They have 9 hp, 1 attack at +4 (only a 25% chance to actually hit vs. 19 AC) for 1 (yes one, 1d4 -1) hp of damage, their poison has a Fort DC of 11 (i.e. only a 12% chance to actually poison someone if we consider the hit percentage), and it deals an average of 3 CON damage (i.e. loss of ONE hp for a level 1 warrior). Oh, and "snakes are non-aggressive and flee when confronted". Should be scared where exactly?


I think the point Horatio was trying to make was that any character build, even the Fighter or evocation casters you disdain, can achieve Total and Complete World Domination, if they are allowed to design the encounters they have to face.

I am not "designing" the encounters. My character does his best to progress via the optimal path. By your logic, any common low-level party's decision to not go to the Fire Giants lair and instead kill some kobolds is "encounter design". And such a party will still be nothing by level 6, whereas my character will be, let's say, very powerful at that same point.

[Poit-Narf]

Can the character optimization absurdity go to a different thread?

[LeslieR]

Can the character optimization absurdity go to a different thread?

Seriously, this is the thread for discussing the plot for a specific installment of a notionally D&D related webcomic of which all here are nominally fond of... NOT the latest exciting episode of 'Who Wants to be a Munchkin?"

[JoseB]

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Already mentioned it on post #312: The "build discussion" should be taken to the Gaming Sub-forum.

Just my 2 eurocent!

[BillyJimBoBob]

The creature contained within the circle cannot cross it. Therefore, it cannot enlarge itself to do so. If it is contained within the circle and then becomes too large to fit within the circle, the area it occupies has now crossed to the other side of the circle, whereas it did not do so previously. Not being able to cross the barrier applies whether it tries to use mundane or magical means, otherwise the limitation would be specified.Your first sentence is accurate. The rest of the paragraph is relying upon that first sentence, but is using it to apply restrictions which are expressly not listed in the restrictions specifically listed in the spell description. This is faulty reasoning. Point to a prohibition against casting Enlarge. There is none. The efreet can not willingly cross the circle, but if the circle simply becomes too small to hold the efreet, the efreet has not done so. He has not walked, jumped, or flown across the circle. He has quite simply become too large for the circle, just by standing in place. His new size now invokes the check for being too large provisions the spell explicitly describes.

So, yes, you are making things up. There is no restriction against casting any self targeted spell.

(Interestingly enough, the Enlarge person description on d20srd.org says that it doubles the height, but does not mention the other two dimensions. It multiplies the weight by 8, so proportional expansion is strongly implied by the cube law, but it's not actually explicit...)The rules also lay out the area a Huge creature occupies. I posted this earlier. That area is too large for the circle.


Build v. 2.0 Diplomacy cheese now. Congratulations, you have accurately pointed out a flaw in the rules which has been pointed out many times previously.

And in fact, taking your interpretation [on Intimidate, by RAW] would really break the skill and the game.Oh, my. Now we have the person who is trying to concoct the perfect scheme to gain infinite wishes at 5th level complaining that the game is broken if played by RAW? The same person who is now using Diplomacy cheese to break the game? That's a refreshing attitude!

You don't have the Spell Compendium? That's a real loss.Funny, I've never missed it. There are already hundreds of spells in the PHB, the only reason there are more books with more spells is not because there was any clear need. There was not. The spells in the PHB alone hold enough broken goodness for anyone wishing to take advantage of them. Marketing forces the publication of additional source books, not need.

[Undead Prince]

The "build discussion" should be taken to the Gaming Sub-forum.

I concur, the discussion has outgrown its connection with #633. However, instead of starting a new topic myself, my preference would have been for the moderators to transfer the relevant posts into a new thread (that way, the discussion gets preserved and does not immediately fade into oblivion when #634 comes out). The proper forum would seem to be "Roleplaying Games". Until then, I suggest keeping this debate under spoiler tags, so that anyone not interested does not have to scroll through it.

[The Minx]

Your first sentence is accurate. The rest of the paragraph is relying upon that first sentence, but is using it to apply restrictions which are expressly not listed in the restrictions specifically listed in the spell description. This is faulty reasoning. Point to a prohibition against casting Enlarge. There is none. The efreet can not willingly cross the circle, but if the circle simply becomes too small to hold the efreet, the efreet has not done so. He has not walked, jumped, or flown across the circle. He has quite simply become too large for the circle, just by standing in place. His new size now invokes the check for being too large provisions the spell explicitly describes.

So, yes, you are making things up. There is no restriction against casting any self targeted spell.

You seem to be repeating your previous statements. And if my first statement is true, then is can be applied as a restriction on what the trapped creature can do, that being the very point of it.

I have already pointed to a prohibition against Enlarge, since its EFFECT is prohibited: namely crossing the barrier which the circle forms. I have acknowledged that your interpretation MIGHT be one of two valid interpretations of the size restriction of the spell, except that enlargement would allow the creature to cross the circle, which is not permitted. To clarify: you have condition A: "trap fails for subject larger than X". There are two interpretations, 1: "size restriction can cause spell to fail when cast" and 2: "size restriction can cause spell to fail at any time". You also have condition B: "subject may not cross circle" (and C: "subject may not disturb circle directly or indirectly). B and C musty both hold and either A1 or A2 must hold, or you are not playing by the rules. A1 is compatible with B and C, A2 is not. Therefore A1 is the correct version of A.

[BillyJimBoBob]

And if my first statement is true, then is can be applied as a restriction on what the trapped creature can do, that being the very point of it.No, this is where you decide to make things up. There are prohibited actions clearly defined. You have decided to add to that list any conceivable spell, listing none in advance but making ad hoc adjudication on the spot, which may allow the Magic Circle to be broken. This is clearly not RAW.

Also not RAW is your interpretation that simply growing larger in place counts as a violation of the "may not cross" restriction. There is no movement associated with Enlarge Person, and being too big for the circle isn't the fault of the efreet. It's just fortuitous, and plays well to the limitations of the Magic Circle.

Our friend the Undead Prince is planning to cast a pile of spells on the efreet. Were one of these a size altering spell such as a polymorph or other effect, would the efreet be unable to be a legal target of that spell? After all, the efreet "may not cross", and there is no mention of this being restricted to his own efforts or those of someone else.

[Undead Prince]

{Scrubbed}

[The Minx]

No, this is where you decide to make things up. There are prohibited actions clearly defined. You have decided to add to that list any conceivable spell, listing none in advance but making ad hoc adjudication on the spot, which may allow the Magic Circle to be broken. This is clearly not RAW.

Yet again, you state your opinion. My inference was entirely valid within the listed parameters.


Also not RAW is your interpretation that simply growing larger in place counts as a violation of the "may not cross" restriction. There is no movement associated with Enlarge Person, and being too big for the circle isn't the fault of the efreet. It's just fortuitous, and plays well to the limitations of the Magic Circle.

Nonsense. The area you occupy was contained within the circle before the enlargement. The area you occupy is not contained within the circle after the enlargement. That is a violation. The text says nothing about "movement", that is something you are assigning to the spell which isn't in the description.


Our friend the Undead Prince is planning to cast a pile of spells on the efreet. Were one of these a size altering spell such as a polymorph or other effect, would the efreet be unable to be a legal target of that spell? After all, the efreet "may not cross", and there is no mention of this being restricted to his own efforts or those of someone else.

Going by the text, others may disturb the circle whereas the Efreet may not.

[BillyJimBoBob]

"The creature cannot cross the circle’s boundaries";

"The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly";

"The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly".None of these restrictions prohibits the efreet from casting Enlarge Person upon himself. There is no motion involved with growth. The efreet is not directly or indirectly disturbing the circle, it is merely becoming to large for the Magic Circle to have any effect other than as a Protection from Evil. There is no "disturbing" of the circle involved here, unless you can point me to rules which cite this. You wish to equate breaking the circle (as in the straw example) with the spell being reduced to a lesser effect, but they are not the same, and the growth is not prohibited.

You really should cut down on incoherence. You quote me on Intimidate, then refer to Diplomacy.*boggle* You used references to Diplomacy to claim that Intimidate didn't work as written. Both are broken skills. You're using Diplomacy in your second "build", and claiming that there is some magic point at which points invested in a broken skill is reasonable is very subjective.

Second, cut the ad hominem.

So you're proudly flaunting your ignorance of anything not in the core rulebooks. Actually wait, you don't know the core rulebooks either judging by your constant blunders - Magic Jar, NPC attitudes, Intimidate, Magic Circle... the list goes on. First:
I never mentioned Magic Jar.
I correctly cited the rules on NPC attitudes, you made claims about how it worked and supported them with "go read the book", but you were shown to be incorrect.
I know how Intimidate works by RAW, you do not. Even more amusing is that you embrace using Diplomacy as written, but decry that Intimidate works as written, since the one works for you but the other works against you.
I know how Magic Circle works by RAW, but you do not.

Second, cut the ad hominem.

In any case, the fact that you're too cheap to purchase extra source books does not give you any right to deny their content to other players.First, when did I ever even hint that anyone else had no right to use any rules source they wished?

Second, cut the ad hominem.

[Undead Prince]

being too big for the circle isn't the fault of the efreet.

It's precisely the fault of the efreet as it was he who Enlarged himself.


After all, the efreet "may not cross", and there is no mention of this being restricted to his own efforts or those of someone else.

I don't really see the relevance, but judging from the other conditions ("The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can", "if anything disturbs the diagram... However, the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly") the Magic Circle's warding powers only concern the actions of the creature. And if it was the summoner who casted Enlarge on the Efreeti, the Efreeti may very well be Enlarged, becoming to large for the spell to hold him and disturbing the diagram and the circle in the process. The trap is thus disabled, but as a result of the summoner's actions, not the Efreeti's. Neither can the Efreeti attempt to make someone cast Enlarge on him, as this would mean indirectly causing the crossing of the circle and the disturbance of the circle/diagram.

However, though the language is clear concerning the circle/diagram (anyone can disturb it), the spell is indeed vague on the crossing itself. It would probably be up to the DM to decide whether the Circle also precludes making the Efreeti cross it through efforts of other creatures. Though, again, it's irrelevant.


P.S. People, I think we should really keep this discussion spoiler-tagged, as it has deviated quite a way from the thread's original topic.

[The Minx]

Spoilered at Undead Prince's suggestion.


None of these restrictions prohibits the efreet from casting Enlarge Person upon himself. There is no motion involved with growth.

This seems to be the crux of your argument. The problem is that the spell description does not mention "movement" anywhere. One can "cross" the circle in more ways than one: by movement, or by enlargement (as I pointed out in my previous post). There is no reason to suppose that one would be permitted while the other is not. Now, if the Efreet cast Enlargement upon himself before the mage cast his magic circle, that would render it useless.


The efreet is not directly or indirectly disturbing the circle, it is merely becoming to large for the Magic Circle to have any effect other than as a Protection from Evil. There is no "disturbing" of the circle involved here, unless you can point me to rules which cite this.

Yes, he is very much disturbing the circle, and very directly at that, since he is negating its effects, as well as shoving his frame across it, albeit in all directions simultaneously.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Yet again, you state your opinion.And you refute my opinion with your own. We both use citations from RAW to support our positions, at least. :smallbiggrin:

I think it boils down to two people reading the same thing and arriving at different conclusions. But I believe I have the RAW on my side. Your position adds a lot to what is written, and makes the spell overreach the limits which were placed upon it, again by RAW.

The spell says "If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can." Becoming larger then the circle does not break the circle, ending it immediately. Instead it causes a reduction in effect, "If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only." Causing a reduction in effect is not the same as "disturbing" the Circle.

Going by the text, others may disturb the circle whereas the Efreet may not.[This in response to my question about others Enlarging the efreet.]You are conflating two separate things: Disturbing the circle, and crossing the circle. The two are quite separate, and have quite separate effects if they occur.

Others can disturb the circle freely, the efreet can not. But the efreet is simply prohibited from crossing the Circle. So I'll ask again, can the summoner or any other being legally target the efreet with a spell which makes it grow too large for the circle? And please note that there is no RAW to support that such a growth constitutes disturbing the circle, and that the consequences of this growth are defined in completely different terms than the consequences of disturbing the circle.

If you feel that they can not, please use RAW citations to support this position. If you feel that they can, then so can the efreet. By RAW.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Yes, he is very much disturbing the circle, and very directly at that, since he is negating its effects, as well as shoving his frame across it, albeit in all directions simultaneously.He is not disturbing the circle, and he is not negating its effects. The Circle is reduced to a limited effect, and that reduction is defined completely outside of and with no overlap at all from the definition for the Circle being disturbed.

[SoC175]

Your first sentence is accurate. The rest of the paragraph is relying upon that first sentence, but is using it to apply restrictions which are expressly not listed in the restrictions specifically listed in the spell description. This is faulty reasoning. Point to a prohibition against casting Enlarge. There is none. The efreet can not willingly cross the circle, but if the circle simply becomes too small to hold the efreet, the efreet has not done so. He has not walked, jumped, or flown across the circle. He has quite simply become too large for the circle, just by standing in place. His new size now invokes the check for being too large provisions the spell explicitly describes.
Sorry, but the faulty reasoning is entirely yours. It's the circle who has done nothing, the efreet has moved (or more precisely expanded). And he's free to do so until he hits the barrier of the circle at which point he has to squeeze to continue.

No, this is where you decide to make things up.
Which is the basis of your whole argument: you wrongly made up that the efreet can enlarge himself without moving.

There is no movement associated with Enlarge Person,
It is. His enlarging body grows to occupy squares which he formerly didn't occupy, he's moving into these squares.

There is no motion involved with growth.
There is. And as soon as this motion hits the circle it's stopped

[BillyJimBoBob]

His enlarging body grows to occupy squares which he formerly didn't occupy, he's moving into these squares.Well, yes. That's the whole point. But the efreet isn't breaking any rules by doing so. There is no "squeeze" rule, the space he occupies is determined by the size rules. All I contend is that there can be no prohibition of the efreet casting Enlarge Person on himself, as that act is not of itself forbidden. It incidentally brings about the effect that the circle is too small, but you can not refuse to allow that spell to be cast when at the time of the casting there is no prohibition against it. The efreet could reduce its size, right? Or cast any other spell which isn't expressly forbidden, right? Adding actions to the "expressly forbidden" list simply because they bring about the reduction in effect of the Circle is not RAW. Said another way, you can not forbid any cause which is legal at the time it is cast simply because you do not care for the effect.

And as soon as this motion hits the circle it's stopped[/spoiler]Here you are both adding to the abilities of Magic Circle and subtracting from the abilities of Enlarge Person. By RAW neither of those can occur.

[Bedinsis]

This might have been mentioned, but...

There's a typo in the title:

Where Do Yo See Yourself in Five Million Years?
as opposed for
Where Do You See Yourself in Five Million Years?

[The Minx]

And you refute my opinion with your own. We both use citations from RAW to support our positions, at least. :smallbiggrin:

Heh, while I do maintain that I have qualified my opinion, I guess your point here is fair enough. :smallsmile:



I think it boils down to two people reading the same thing and arriving at different conclusions. But I believe I have the RAW on my side. Your position adds a lot to what is written, and makes the spell overreach the limits which were placed upon it, again by RAW.

Well, I disagree, obviously; my position is based on the idea that "cross the barrier" does not specify HOW the barrier is not to be crossed, and that if parts of the Efreet are inside the circle before the action and outside the circle after his action, the barrier counts as crossed. Thus any method of crossing is an attempted violation. OTOH, you infer that "crossing" implies movement, which I feel is reading something which isn't there. Besides, bits of the Efreet are in fact moving (in all directions simultaneously, but still: for instance, in which square is his nose going to be before and after?). It all depends on which criterion in RAW more important, since clearly, a potential contradiction exists here. As consequence, we interpret whether "subject of the spell" refers to the spell as cast, or the spell at any point during its effects.



The spell says "If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can." Becoming larger then the circle does not break the circle, ending it immediately. Instead it causes a reduction in effect, "If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only." Causing a reduction in effect is not the same as "disturbing" the Circle.
You are conflating two separate things: Disturbing the circle, and crossing the circle. The two are quite separate, and have quite separate effects if they occur.

I included both criteria, since both criteria have to apply, I didn't mean that they were one and the same (as evidenced by giving them a different letter of designation, B and C). If the circle is not disturbed, it is still crossed.



Others can disturb the circle freely, the efreet can not. But the efreet is simply prohibited from crossing the Circle. So I'll ask again, can the summoner or any other being legally target the efreet with a spell which makes it grow too large for the circle? And please note that there is no RAW to support that such a growth constitutes disturbing the circle, and that the consequences of this growth are defined in completely different terms than the consequences of disturbing the circle.

If you feel that they can not, please use RAW citations to support this position. If you feel that they can, then so can the efreet. By RAW.

Let's answer with a question: we can ask whether a Bear Warrior could step inside the circle and toss that Efreet across it. Would this be legal? Would the Efreet fly across or smack into an invisible barrier? On reflection, I guess that by RAW, he cannot move across the circle even when moved by another, since the literal description does not specify the nature of the crossing. And going by my earlier interpretation that "growth = potential crossing" so the answer would seem to be "no".

[BillyJimBoBob]

Let's answer with a question: we can ask whether a Bear Warrior could step inside the circle and toss that Efreet across it. Would this be legal? Would the Efreet fly across or smack into an invisible barrier? On reflection, I guess that by RAW, he cannot move across the circle even when moved by another, since the literal description does not specify the nature of the crossing. And going by my earlier interpretation that "growth = potential crossing" so the answer would seem to be "no".I'm a bit confused. No to the Warrior tossing the efreet, no to another casting growth, or no to both?

If it's no to another casting growth (Polymorph, whatever), can you cite why this is not legal? And if it is legal, which I believe to be the case, then how is the efreet prohibited from the same action?

I think the key point of our disagreement comes from this sentence:
"The creature cannot cross the circle’s boundaries."
It is too terse, and does not provide any context for all of the varied ways in which it can be tested. You seem to wish for it to be absolute: No one can throw the efreet across the Circle (at least, I think that's your position), making it act as a physical barrier rather than one of volition. Other parts of the spell describe it in terms of proscribed actions, reinforcing the volition concept.
"The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself." This suggests that the barrier is one of volition, the encircled creature can not choose to cross the circle, but other actors or actions might bring about such a crossing. But of course RAW does not make either position completely clear. :smallfurious:

I prefer the volition interpretation, and I believe there is enough in the RAW to support this position. The magic itself prevents the efreet from electing to step across or reach across the barrier, but any other ranged missile or spell may freely cross. It's only when you add the diagram that the "physical barrier" concept becomes reinforced, as then the efreet can not even use missile weapons or spells.

Meh, I'm done here. :smallbiggrin: I'll just agree to disagree, and I highly doubt I'll encounter any such situation in any of my D&D games.

[The Minx]

I'm a bit confused. No to the Warrior tossing the efreet, no to another casting growth, or no to both?

No to both.


If it's no to another casting growth (Polymorph, whatever), can you cite why this is not legal? And if it is legal, which I believe to be the case, then how is the efreet prohibited from the same action?

The Efreet cannot cross the barrier. Therefore, others cannot make him cross the barrier (until it is dispelled).

The Efreet cannot disturb the circle. Others CAN disturb the circle, only not by making the Efreet do it, since then the Efreet would be disturbing it "directly or indirectly".


I think the key point of our disagreement comes from this sentence:
"The creature cannot cross the circle’s boundaries."
It is too terse, and does not provide any context for all of the varied ways in which it can be tested. You seem to wish for it to be absolute: No one can throw the efreet across the Circle (at least, I think that's your position), making it act as a physical barrier rather than one of volition.

Well, yes. In practice, it would be a barrier preventing movement of the Efreet.


Other parts of the spell describe it in terms of proscribed actions, reinforcing the volition concept. "The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself." This suggests that the barrier is one of volition, the encircled creature can not choose to cross the circle, but other actors or actions might bring about such a crossing. But of course RAW does not make either position completely clear. :smallfurious:

Yes, so what else is new. :smallbiggrin:

He "cannot reach across the circle" could also imply a barrier, since it does not say "he cannot will himself to reach across the circle". Ranged attacks don't violate the barrier interpretation either, since missiles are not part of the creature itself (only the creature is contained).


I prefer the volition interpretation, and I believe there is enough in the RAW to support this position. The magic itself prevents the efreet from electing to step across or reach across the barrier, but any other ranged missile or spell may freely cross. It's only when you add the diagram that the "physical barrier" concept becomes reinforced, as then the efreet can not even use missile weapons or spells.

But it is not described as a mind affecting effect, just an abjuration. :/

As I suggested, the barrier is selective (like the water force fields in SW episode I :smallsmile:), it only applies to the subject of the spell, while other creatures (and missiles) can move freely.


Meh, I'm done here. :smallbiggrin: I'll just agree to disagree, and I highly doubt I'll encounter any such situation in any of my D&D games.

I was about to suggest the same agreement. :smallbiggrin:

Alas, going by RAW doesn't make things as specific as it should. :/

[Andre Fairchilde]

*Confused*

There was an Efreet in the most recent comic? What does an Efreet have to do with V?

[Silverraptor]

The only thing I can think is...

Minx and BillyJimBoBob, you guys seem to go at each other!

Do we need to seperate u 2?:smallconfused:

[JoseB]

*Confused*

There was an Efreet in the most recent comic? What does an Efreet have to do with V?

There wasn't. The Efreet thing is part of a "secondary discussion" on some theoretical "über-character building" that has become embedded in this thread, threatens to hijack it and, really, has no place in it. It should be taken to one of the Gaming sub-forums, because the only thing it does is confuse those who haven't read the thread from the beginning and annoy those who are not interested in the "building debate".

Just my 2 eurocent!

[Andre Fairchilde]

There wasn't. The Efreet thing is part of a "secondary discussion" on some theoretical "über-character building" that has become embedded in this thread, threatens to hijack it and, really, has no place in it. It should be taken to one of the Gaming sub-forums, because the only thing it does is confuse those who haven't read the thread from the beginning and annoy those who are not interested in the "building debate".

Just my 2 eurocent!


I would say the thread has been successfully hijacked, the plane landed in the Congo, the passengers disembarked, the plane refueled, and then successfully flown to Cuba.

Don't take the deal V!

[SoC175]

There is no "squeeze" rule, the space he occupies is determined by the size rules.
There is. IIRC it causes being flat-footed and -2 to AC and attack rolls and there's a limit into how narrow a space you can squeeze into (e.g. a horse (2x2) could squeze into a 1x2 space but a gargantuan dragon couldn't enter this space at all.

All I contend is that there can be no prohibition of the efreet casting Enlarge Person on himself, as that act is not of itself forbidden.
Sure he can. And he will continue to grew until the spell is done or he's stopped by a barrier (in this case the circle)

It incidentally brings about the effect that the circle is too small,
Which is unfortunate for the efreet as it might even cause him to take damage

It is too terse, and does not provide any context for all of the varied ways in which it can be tested.
It does answer all the varied ways, the answer is no for all of them.

[Assassin89]

*facepalms*
I cannot believe that this thread has derailed into a discussion about Efreet. The deal seems dubious at best, as there might be some unknown side effects from having four minds in the same body. At best, V would not go insane after the splice, but I doubt V will have complete control of the power.

[LeslieR]

Since the original episode discussion thread has devolved into a round robin between three people over how to Break D&D and they won't take their chatter out of the comic discussion thread I'd made this thread to take the comic discussion out of what has become their 'rate my munchkin build' thread.

From the old thread..



The deal is for Each Specific Fiend having possession of V's soul for an amount of time equal to the amount of time V holds the soul-splice, cumulative to each fiend. The deal makes No Mention of handing V's soul over to the higher planes once this specified period is complete. Even if the OOtS isn't operating in a campaign-world where striking a bargain with Fiends in and of itself is a 'Go to Hell, go Directly to Hell, Do not pass Purgatory, do not collect 200 Indulgences' act then more than likely more than a few puppies will get kicked as part of the collateral damage when V takes on the ABD.


"Good news! Today is your last day as the warden's personal butt-toy. The Bad News is that tomorrow we're turning you out into general populace."


Personally I still see 'the wrong reason' being that the ABD never actually intended direct harm to V's offspring, but was just using the threat of same to goad V on as part of a Xanatos Gambit.

V/Ganonron: Greater Teleport!

ABD: You're too late, I've already slain your family and devoured all trace of them, now I shall remove myself and your delightful children's souls from this plane of existance. Plane-Shift!

V/Ganonron: Ganonron's Trans-Dimensional Retrieval!

ABD: *pops back* What? Immpossible!

V/Ganonron: Greater Dimensional Anchor.

ABD: *looks a bit green* Very well, Disintigrate!

V: *flies out of the way* You believe one such as I may be so simply dispathed? Lightening-Bolt!

ABD: *is missed cleanly* I see that your aim has not improved.

V/Jephton: Oh yeah? Well close counts when it's a Fireball!

ABD: GAH!

Innocent Villager: My House!

V/Jephton: Fireball!

ABD: Arrgh!

Innocent Villager: Our School!

V/Jephton: Fireball-Fireball-Fireball! Hee-hee, and another Fireball!

ABD: Uhh.....

Innocent Villagers: AIEEEEEEEE!!

V: Now, give me back the souls of my adopted offspring. Give them Back do you hear? Give them Ba...

V/Haera:...they're, they're not here! You don't have their souls. You don't have Any soul!

ABD: Heh-heh, I knew you were not as clever as you appeared, but even I may have over-estimated you if it took you this long to figure it out.

V: Detect Illusion!

Illusory ABD: I had anticipated that you would beseech the imp for aid when I left, that is why I prepared this illusory distraction so that my true plan could commence apace. I must admit though, a Soul-Splice? I had no idea you had such friends in low places.

V: What have you Done?

Illusory ABD: Oh nothing Bizzare, nothing Grotesque... yet. Dispell Greater Illusion.

Illusory ABD: *POP!*

V: RRAAAAARRRRRGH!

V/Haera: Mass Re-animate Dead!

Innocent Villagers: BRAAAAAAAAINS.....

V: Go forth now and search far and wide, we Must find her and my family before it is too late.

Innocent Zombie Villagers: *shamble-off* BRAAAAAAAAINS....

V: Time IS Of the Essence... um.. People?

V/Jephton: Mass Haste!

Innocent Zombie VillagerS: BRAINZZZZZZ!! *ZOOM!*

V/Haera: Good help is so hard to kill these days.

=============================

*On a secluded hilltop over-looking the tragic fate of the quaint elf-villiage, seeing on V and his/her actions and not the illusory ABD*

V's mate: What..? Oh, my dear Varsarius, what have you done?

V's 1st kid: Parent? What is Other-Parent doing?

V's 2nd kid: Other-Parent is scaring me! *sob*

V's mate: Don't look children, oh please don't look...

Mysterious Stranger: I am sorry you had to witness this, but as I told you, Varsarrius' pursuit of ultimate arcane power has left them mad.

V's mate: I.. I see that now. Th-thank you for showing me the truth.

Mysterious Stranger: What will you do now?

V's mate: *sniff* I.. I must confront my mate, perhaps they are not too far gone, but I Must know. Please, I know it is too much to ask, but will you look out for the children untill.. if.. I come back?

Mysterious Stranger: I shall, go, they will be safe.

V's mate: *sniffle* Thank you, I shall not forget this. *turns to leave.*

Mysterious Stranger: I shall look after them...

Mysterious Suddenly-Green-Eyed Stranger: ...as if they were my very own.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Who posted that? I like it...

[LeslieR]

Me, it was my first post in the old thread before it got swallowed up in the, "And then when I tickle the Efreet's bum just so I'll gain Phenomenal Cosmic Power at level 1" chatter.

[Warlord JK]

That spoiler really creeps me out. I mean, really creeps me out. I hope V doesn't go that far.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please take D&D discussions to the Roleplaying subforum. This thread is for discussions of OotS #633 only.

Also, while discussing the comic, please keep it civil. Personal insults and attacks are not permitted.

[The Minx]

The only thing I can think is...

Minx and BillyJimBoBob, you guys seem to go at each other!

Do we need to seperate u 2?:smallconfused:

:smallredface: OK, we'll be good now.



Since the original episode discussion thread has devolved into a round robin between three people over how to Break D&D and they won't take their chatter out of the comic discussion thread I'd made this thread to take the comic discussion out of what has become their 'rate my munchkin build' thread.

From the old thread..

An interesting possibility, though I cannot see Baker Parent leaving the kids. :smallsmile:

I don't doubt that V will become intoxicated with power, and will do things that they otherwise wouldn't have, leading to the dark side.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Me, it was my first post in the old thread before it got swallowed up in the, "And then when I tickle the Efreet's bum just so I'll gain Phenomenal Cosmic Power at level 1" chatter.

You're a great writer...but You say the mysterious stranger at the end is the Ancient Black Dragon (it took me awhile to put two and two together when you mentioned the green eyes), but in your version, does she intend to honestly raise V's kids (to fill the gap left by the loss of her own son and to get revenge on V by usurping hir), or to follow through on the kill, bind souls so V doesn't see them in this plane or any other one?

Also, the way you described the munchkin discussion...that had me thinking for a second about V's relationship with the fiends going beyond just business. It was a long second.

[Andre Fairchilde]

She intends to eat children, not aise them.

[Nevitan]

Did anyone else notice the strip title say's where do yo see yourself in five million years?

[Silverraptor]

Did anyone else notice the strip title say's where do yo see yourself in five million years?

Unfortunatly yes, everyone has been talking about it for the past few days.

[LeslieR]

You're a great writer...but You say the mysterious stranger at the end is the Ancient Black Dragon (it took me awhile to put two and two together when you mentioned the green eyes), but in your version, does she intend to honestly raise V's kids (to fill the gap left by the loss of her own son and to get revenge on V by usurping hir), or to follow through on the kill, bind souls so V doesn't see them in this plane or any other one?

Also, the way you described the munchkin discussion...that had me thinking for a second about V's relationship with the fiends going beyond just business. It was a long second.

In my version...
She does raise them herself, but less in a 'oh you'll be my new little darlings to replace my dearly departed son' way and more in a 'oh you'll be my new little power-leveled elvish minions who I'll enjoy unleashing upon their Other-Parent' way.

[Undead Prince]

Since the original episode discussion thread has devolved into a round robin between three people over how to Break D&D and they won't take their chatter out of the comic discussion thread

Sorry for that.


Personally I still see 'the wrong reason' being that the ABD never actually intended direct harm to V's offspring, but was just using the threat of same to goad V on as part of a Xanatos Gambit.

V/Ganonron: Greater Teleport!

ABD: You're too late, I've already slain your family and devoured all trace of them, now I shall remove myself and your delightful children's souls from this plane of existance. Plane-Shift!

V/Ganonron: Ganonron's Trans-Dimensional Retrieval!

ABD: *pops back* What? Immpossible!

V/Ganonron: Greater Dimensional Anchor.

ABD: *looks a bit green* Very well, Disintigrate!

V: *flies out of the way* You believe one such as I may be so simply dispathed? Lightening-Bolt!

ABD: *is missed cleanly* I see that your aim has not improved.

V/Jephton: Oh yeah? Well close counts when it's a Fireball!

ABD: GAH!

Innocent Villager: My House!

V/Jephton: Fireball!

ABD: Arrgh!

Innocent Villager: Our School!

V/Jephton: Fireball-Fireball-Fireball! Hee-hee, and another Fireball!

ABD: Uhh.....

Innocent Villagers: AIEEEEEEEE!!

V: Now, give me back the souls of my adopted offspring. Give them Back do you hear? Give them Ba...

V/Haera:...they're, they're not here! You don't have their souls. You don't have Any soul!

ABD: Heh-heh, I knew you were not as clever as you appeared, but even I may have over-estimated you if it took you this long to figure it out.

V: Detect Illusion!

Illusory ABD: I had anticipated that you would beseech the imp for aid when I left, that is why I prepared this illusory distraction so that my true plan could commence apace. I must admit though, a Soul-Splice? I had no idea you had such friends in low places.

V: What have you Done?

Illusory ABD: Oh nothing Bizzare, nothing Grotesque... yet. Dispell Greater Illusion.

Illusory ABD: *POP!*

V: RRAAAAARRRRRGH!

V/Haera: Mass Re-animate Dead!

Innocent Villagers: BRAAAAAAAAINS.....

V: Go forth now and search far and wide, we Must find her and my family before it is too late.

Innocent Zombie Villagers: *shamble-off* BRAAAAAAAAINS....

V: Time IS Of the Essence... um.. People?

V/Jephton: Mass Haste!

Innocent Zombie VillagerS: BRAINZZZZZZ!! *ZOOM!*

V/Haera: Good help is so hard to kill these days.

=============================

*On a secluded hilltop over-looking the tragic fate of the quaint elf-villiage, seeing on V and his/her actions and not the illusory ABD*

V's mate: What..? Oh, my dear Varsarius, what have you done?

V's 1st kid: Parent? What is Other-Parent doing?

V's 2nd kid: Other-Parent is scaring me! *sob*

V's mate: Don't look children, oh please don't look...

Mysterious Stranger: I am sorry you had to witness this, but as I told you, Varsarrius' pursuit of ultimate arcane power has left them mad.

V's mate: I.. I see that now. Th-thank you for showing me the truth.

Mysterious Stranger: What will you do now?

V's mate: *sniff* I.. I must confront my mate, perhaps they are not too far gone, but I Must know. Please, I know it is too much to ask, but will you look out for the children untill.. if.. I come back?

Mysterious Stranger: I shall, go, they will be safe.

V's mate: *sniffle* Thank you, I shall not forget this. *turns to leave.*

Mysterious Stranger: I shall look after them...

Mysterious Suddenly-Green-Eyed Stranger: ...as if they were my very own.

Thanks for a very fun read. Just a few notes. Before getting out of Time Stop and into the fight, V would have fortified himself with some wicked protection spells, e.g. Epic Spell Reflection and Greater Spell Resistance. These defences would have precluded the ABD's illusion from functioning on V. Second, V would have Haera's Epic Death spells, and wouldn't resort to lightning bolts/fireballs. Finally, sending mindless undead to do a task that requires, er, brains is really not something V would do, especially with 3 epic advisors. Besides, the entire problem of finding ABD (even if she's on a different plane) can be solved with a single fourth-level spell called Scrying. Then cast Dominate Monster or Monstrous Thrall to make her V's obedient servant, and find out the location of the children, their bodies and souls. Then, Wish to resurrect them if they're dead, and kill the ABD.

[Niesra]

It need to be said at least once more: One, V's lost it; two,
four words comming :P.

[LeslieR]

Thanks for a very fun read. Just a few notes...

And this is why role-players and power-gamers are natural enemies.

[Kaytara]

Honestly, I don't see how "She never actually intended to harm them" can apply as being the wrong reason. Vaarsuvius had every reason to believe that she did, as she had shown herself both willing and very, very capable of making good on that threat. And she's a black dragon, why would she have qualms about killing them?

In short, doing nothing on the off chance that the dragon didn't really mean it is like betting your family's life on Elan winning a game of chess. Vaarsuvius genuinely believed that they were in danger and had no absolutely no reason to believe otherwise, so "protecting my family" even if you've been tricked and your family is not actually in danger is by no means a wrong reason.

[Morgan Wick]

So it looks like it'll be #634 when we get the Four Words if we get them now at all. Perhaps we'll get V's Good Angel and Bad Angel as a lead-up (properly subverted, of course, and probably referencing the forums' not being convinced saving his/her family are the "wrong reasons").

I wouldn't put it past the Giant to do something like this (http://sluggy.com/daily.php?date=070918).

[Undead Prince]

And this is why role-players and power-gamers are natural enemies.

I apologise again, but the course of action I proposed for V is fully in line with role-playing. As a wizard of 23 Intelligence and 23 Spellcraft, V would do this sort of thing. He would take precautions before fighting the ABD to which he lost so easily the previous time. He would not send mindless undead (and we know from the comic zombies indeed are mindless) to find his kids when all he needed was a Scrying (which he has, as seen in #505 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html)). Having access to epic Death and Domination spells he would not waste time with a third-level electric bolt which does an average 35 damage, when ABD has 387 hp and +17 to Reflex saves (see for yourself (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)).

In fact, it would seem that playing V as not knowing things like those would be contrary to his character and thus not something a role-player would do.

Role-players and power-gamers are not "natural enemies". A good role-player is a power-gamer, because he uses the mechanics to play his character in a way most consistent with the character's traits. I.e. an Intelligent, knowledgeable and power-hungry wizard like V would know all this stuff about spells. Vice versa, a good power-gamer is a role-player, because he knows how to keep the atmosphere and stay on the DM and other players' good side. I.e. if he wanted power for his character, he would play an Intelligent, knowledgeable and power-hungry wizard like V.

[Bilbo27]

patiently waiting in reboot mode til new comic arrives.
Aaaahhmmmmmm.

[Kish]

Role-players and power-gamers are not "natural enemies". A good role-player is a power-gamer, because he uses the mechanics to play his character in a way most consistent with the character's traits.

Only if those stats happen to be high. A powergamer who also cares about roleplaying will probably make sure the relevant stats are high, but one who dumps Intelligence because it doesn't do anything mechanical for his/her class is unlikely to then act appropriately stupid in battle.

[CrimsonAngel]

*stands around waiting* THE SUSPENSE!!! *chews nails.*

[Undead Prince]

Only if those stats happen to be high. A powergamer who also cares about roleplaying will probably make sure the relevant stats are high, but one who dumps Intelligence because it doesn't do anything mechanical for his/her class is unlikely to then act appropriately stupid in battle.

Well, this is not our case, as Vaarsuvius has both genius-level Intelligence (23) and knows so much about spells (Wizard, Spellcraft).

However, from a purely speculative perspective. A character is defined not only by stats, but also by skills, feats, abilities etc. A Half-Orc Fighter/Barb will not know how to properly arrange cutlery at a formal dinner, or how to spell "indescribable pain", but: with high BAB, Weapon Focus and Cleave he's a master with that Greataxe, with DEX and Spring Attack he knows how to position himself without being hit, with Intimidate he can scare others into submission, with Ride/Handle Animal he knows his way around horses and Mounted Combat feats allow him to properly use his Warhorse in battle...

so - where would the character's low INT hinder the powergamer roleplay-wise? All he has to do is be properly gruff and simple-speaking. When it comes to business, the character's abilities will speak for themselves.

[Kish]

However, from a purely speculative perspective. A character is defined not only by stats, but also by skills, feats, abilities etc. A Half-Orc Fighter/Barb will not know how to properly arrange cutlery at a formal dinner, or how to spell "indescribable pain", but: with high BAB, Weapon Focus and Cleave he's a master with that Greataxe, with DEX and Spring Attack he knows how to position himself without being hit, with Intimidate he can scare others into submission, with Ride/Handle Animal he knows his way around horses and Mounted Combat feats allow him to properly use his Warhorse in battle...

so - where would the character's low INT hinder the powergamer roleplay-wise? All he has to do is be properly gruff and simple-speaking. When it comes to business, the character's abilities will speak for themselves.
Of course! Any good powergamer knows enough sophistry to explain why his low stats only hamper him at things he doesn't actually care about doing.

And you just made a much better case that "good powergamer" is a contradiction in terms than I ever could.

Belkar is an interesting character. Smart and stupid at once. At no point has he acted in a way inappropriate to a character with average Intelligence and catastrophically low Wisdom. Vaarsuvius is actually quite thoroughly hampered by her lack of Wisdom, despite his stratospheric Intelligence. But to suggest that a well-roleplayed character with all low mental stats should never have trouble with any application of his mind that he cares about...I'm sorry, but that's the worst thing you've written since claiming that every D&D PC followed a preplanned optimization path and that was the only way to do it.

[Undead Prince]

you just made a much better case that "good powergamer" is a contradiction in terms than I ever could.

Care to elaborate? I believe I just outlined the opposite - how a powergamer can (and should) be a roleplayer.


But to suggest that a well-roleplayed character with all low mental stats should never have trouble with any application of his mind that he cares about...

IF the power gamer cared about other applications of the mind, he would roll a different character. He's a power gamer, after all.

E.g. if he wanted those Fighter feats with the INT requirement (Whirlwind attack etc), or wanted more skills, he would have put points in INT. If he wanted spellcasting, he would've played Wizard or Cleric, etc.

Anything he doesn't have he doesn't want (not precisely so, but he knows that he can't get it under the rules, and is content with the best possible combination). Otherwise, his character would be different.

In any case, in DnD you can describe pretty much everything with the mechanics, and if the char doesn't have the stats, he fails.

The only thing I can really think about is the "dumb brute Half-Orc Barb" player coming up with cunning plans, e.g. on how to deceive the City Guard, but not taking the rolls himself (as the Barb would fail whateve Bluff, or Diplomacy, or Intimidate, or Knowledge (nobility), or Escape Artist check involved), instead offering the idea to the fellow Wizard/Rogue/Beguiler/whatever proper char has the stats. This sort of metagaming may either be allowed by the DM (when the game is played with players more "detached" from their characters), or disallowed (when stringent roleplaying requirements are imposed), and that's it. In the latter case, a possible method is that if a low-INT character cannot succeed on the check involved if "taking 20", then he cannot think of a plan involving such a check.

Since the power gamer would know of game conditions in advance, if there were strict limitations in this regard and he still wanted to be in the position to put forward action plans, he would roll a character with the necessary capabilities (notably, high INT) and enjoy the game.


I'm sorry, but that's the worst thing you've written since claiming that every D&D PC followed a preplanned optimization path and that was the only way to do it

Hey, either you let sleeping dogs lie, or I cast Animate Dead on that debate and have at you >8=))

[Kish]

Hey, either you let sleeping dogs lie, or I cast Animate Dead on that debate and have at you >8=))
If you want to continue posting optimization builds, by all means, you should. You seemed to be enjoying it. Not here, though, the mods already objected; in one of the gaming forums.

As for the particular statement I quoted, I believe we both agreed there was nothing to debate about it, one way or the other. :smalltongue: