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The Giant
2009-02-22, 05:29 PM
New comic is up.

Uncle Festy
2009-02-22, 05:33 PM
"I don't need to prepare spell slots!"
Lawl. :smallbiggrin:

Kroy
2009-02-22, 05:35 PM
Very nice comic, Giant. That was a pleasant surprise on my Sunday afternoon.

SteveMB
2009-02-22, 05:37 PM
Hmmm... the deal isn't actually all that bad, if it just takes a few minutes to use that power to take care of business.

kpenguin
2009-02-22, 05:37 PM
Well, that's a... huh.

The only reason for V to turn down this offer is if (s)he has any reservations about furthering a fiend-powered armageddon.

RTGoodman
2009-02-22, 05:38 PM
You know, if I were known as Ryan the Unholy, Spawn of Hatred, I'd definitely be wearing bright orange robes and be glowing with happy yellow light. :smalltongue:

Porthos
2009-02-22, 05:39 PM
Hmmmm. Time for posters to try to rip this deal apart and see in what ways it horribly screws V over, methinks. :smallwink:

Personally I'll start with:

So the IFCC gets to control V's soul for a length of time some time in the future. Yeah, can't see that coming back to bite V in the ass. :smallamused:

After all, what happens when V and the gang get close to another gate? I would think that the IFCC would absolutely love to have a person under their direct control should the Order ever get near another gate

Especially if Sabine and Nale are around to provide backup.

Can't say I see this ending well at all for V. Not at all.:smalleek:

Raging Gene Ray
2009-02-22, 05:40 PM
"I don't need to prepare spell slots!"
Lawl. :smallbiggrin:

I love the sleep-deprived eyes and the grin on the Sorceror...as if to say..."I'm just as good as them...:smallfrown:"

Jarade
2009-02-22, 05:41 PM
Is anyone other than myself more than slightly disturbed by this???

And i have a horrible feeling that if V does accept this, the demons will screw h** by casting time-stops or somesuch to make h** "hour" equate to a much larger amount of time.

Lira
2009-02-22, 05:41 PM
Wow.

Well, that answers a few questions. And now I'm more excited than ever for the next strip.

Cúchulainn
2009-02-22, 05:42 PM
Sounds like a good deal if it's legit, I'd take it. Being neutral has it's perks sometimes.

TheBST
2009-02-22, 05:42 PM
Oh this is going to be good.

Let me guess: after V's used the Soul Splice once, he's going to trade another few minutes in Hell for more time with power. And then another few minutes. And another. And another. And another...

Like any good drug dealer, the IFCC know that even with inexpensive product, the junkies will come back again and again and eventually be yours

RMS Oceanic
2009-02-22, 05:43 PM
These guys have perused Unearthed Arcana, and decided to crank the Gestalt Rules up to Eleven!

And yeah, there are two ways this will backfire if V takes it:

1. (S)he holds the splice for a very long time.
2. (S)he will be used to gain control of one or more gates.

Alteran
2009-02-22, 05:43 PM
Great comic, Giant!

I'm curious if the plan is actually to keep V under the Soul Splice for as long as possible, and therefore controlling his soul for long enough to achieve some specific goal. I'd be surprised if V could bring himself to throw away ultimate arcane power so quickly.

RebelRogue
2009-02-22, 05:45 PM
Hmm, there must be some catch for V on a more personal level, I should think:smallconfused:

Surfing HalfOrc
2009-02-22, 05:46 PM
Well, still no four words!

Of course, the four words MIGHT be "I decline your offer."

After all, the Good Planes might be willing to reward someone who would be willing to turn down such an offer. :smallbiggrin:

Kupi
2009-02-22, 05:46 PM
I have only one question about the result of this offer, should V take it:

How much of V will be left? This does not sound in any way permanent, and given that they're talking about grafting three extremely destructive mages's souls onto V's, I doubt we're talking about a gentle loss of control here. This is going to end with V in pieces, I just know it.

Stay strong, V!

Kish
2009-02-22, 05:46 PM
Is it just me or do you foresee V actually breaking up the IFCC with his wizardly intellect after having used them to tear the dragon apart?
I think Vaarsuvius may well think s/he can. I think the IFCC is probably counting on that belief, too, and I don't for one minute believe them appearing to Vaarsuvius is just a coincidence ("just waiting for the next request to come down the line," my ass). I remember once in the strip--well, in Start of Darkness actually--where someone made a similar bargain for a greater good.

Redcloak? How's that "we can use Xykon" thing working out for you?

Lamech
2009-02-22, 05:48 PM
Lets see three archfiends gets his soul for say a round* each. Round one, make him evil, round two pull out his memories so they know everything he does, and round three quickened geas** him into fulfilling their fiendish goals, and splice on the ablity to make a perverted gate.

Yeah this is five kinds of bad for everyone. And isn't ultimate arcane power times three? The ultimate arcane power of three casters. Ultimate means last in this case.

*Teleport+memento mori good-bye dragon.
**Limited wish will be used to dupliacate the effect, otherwise it would take too long.

Zack Norglad
2009-02-22, 05:49 PM
Oh this is going to be good.

Let me guess: after V's used the Soul Splice once, he's going to trade another few minutes in Hell for more time with power. And then another few minutes. And another. And another. And another...

Like any good drug dealer, the IFCC know that even with inexpensive product, the junkies will come back again and again and eventually be yours


Like this opinion! Drug addict :D.
V's story is really getting interesting now. Seriously, we should cut of to another character now.

Borris
2009-02-22, 05:50 PM
There's a typo in panel 5:
"... wielded by any mortal [/B]arane[/B] spellcaster ..."
Should definitely be arcane.

Saint Nil
2009-02-22, 05:53 PM
My favorite line was the one about the water coolers of angels blood.

Honestly, I can't wait to see V say 5 words, just to mess with the forum goers.:smallamused:

SPoD
2009-02-22, 05:54 PM
Oh this is going to be good.

Let me guess: after V's used the Soul Splice once, he's going to trade another few minutes in Hell for more time with power. And then another few minutes. And another. And another. And another...

Like any good drug dealer, the IFCC know that even with inexpensive product, the junkies will come back again and again and eventually be yours


This won't work because it is specifically called a "special once-a-century deal". They can each only use Soul Splice once every hundred years, so once this splice is over, they can't do it again for a while.

Also, am I the only one who thinks this will only last a few rounds? The bit about V's "unimpeachable mental fortitude" strikes me as a hidden insult, based on the fact that V is coming apart at the seams. I think that whatever willpower takes to hold on to these splices, V won't actually have it and the whole thing will unravel fairly quickly.

Kroy
2009-02-22, 05:56 PM
Well, still no four words!

Of course, the four words MIGHT be "I decline your offer."

After all, the Good Planes might be willing to reward someone who would be willing to turn down such an offer. :smallbiggrin:

Or maybe "I accept your offer."

Porthos
2009-02-22, 05:57 PM
Well, that's a... huh.

The only reason for V to turn down this offer is if (s)he has any reservations about furthering a fiend-powered armageddon.

The main immediate problem that I and many other posters have seen in this deal is that there is nothing in it that says that the IFCC has to wait until V is dead before they get to take control of his soul for an amount of time.

All the fiends have to do is wait for an appropiate time before calling in their chit.

I suppose if V insisted on being dead before they could use his soul, it might be marginally better. But, yeah, still don't see this working out for V in the long run.

Myou
2009-02-22, 05:57 PM
Oooh, very interesting.

V might take the deal but be intoxicated by power and end up being forced to perform evil acts for weeks of even longer.

Trixie
2009-02-22, 05:57 PM
They will give her the souls...

But it will turn out that they forgot to fill any spell slots and V needs to rest for 8 hours to fill them... But, as she has no epic spells in her spellbook, their usefulness will be severely limited :smallamused:

Oh, and they probably only know spells from Book of Vile Darkness, each more corrupting than the last.

So, V, enjoy that neutrality while you still can :smallamused:

martyboy74
2009-02-22, 05:59 PM
The question is, how long will V be able to hold it? With that kind of power, murderizing the dragon shouldn't take very much time. Will V want to keep that power, though?

Also, I noticed that they don't say anything about what happens to V once unbound from the 3. I imagine that it won't be pretty.

chiasaur11
2009-02-22, 06:00 PM
This deal looks a little too good to be true.

Maybe they took the spell from FATAL? That would be evil.

Ragn Charran
2009-02-22, 06:00 PM
Note to Rich: Be sure to change V's skin to gold and eyes to hourglasses if he takes the deal.

Assassin89
2009-02-22, 06:01 PM
Apparently the title is making fun of the long life span of elves. I'm thinking if discussion regarding the 4 words stops, maybe it will resolve itself. There is a possibility that V could come into a different source of magic which is more powerful than the combined power of four arcane users, but then V would have a greater dilemma.

TheBST
2009-02-22, 06:01 PM
This won't work because it is specifically called a "special once-a-century deal". They can each only use Soul Splice once every hundred years, so once this splice is over, they can't do it again for a while.



Who says the deal isn't only made for one being a century but includes 'refills' for that one being? When V feels 'withdrawal' coming on, the fiends can simply 'top him/her up'...and eventually control him...



Apparently the title is making fun of the long life span of elves.

Nah. It's about the fiends' long term goals in the penultimate and final panels

Xiander
2009-02-22, 06:03 PM
Okay, time for random speculations: Based on the souls they offer i would say that the Orange fiend is Lee (concouring a lot of land seems lawfull to me, very tyrantlike), The purple fiend is Nero (i have no good reasons to believe this other than exclution) and the yellow fiend is Cedric (The "not preparing spell slots"-thing is to random not to be chaotic).

Porthos
2009-02-22, 06:05 PM
Also, am I the only one who thinks this will only last a few rounds? The bit about V's "unimpeachable mental fortitude" strikes me as a hidden insult, based on the fact that V is coming apart at the seams. I think that whatever willpower takes to hold on to these splices, V won't actually have it and the whole thing will unravel fairly quickly.

An interesting point. However one would think that it would be in the IFCC's best interest to have V maintain the Soul Splice as long as possible.

I'm a bit more leery of the specific wording that the IFCC is using myself. Specifically, that V gets the final say over his actions. And that he has complete control over the actions of the other three souls that would be bonded to him.

Well, sure. But consider this. V is in a percarious mental state, as you point out. Which means that he might very well listen to the advice/consoul that the newly grafted souls give him. It's the whole Iago thing at work, really. After all, Othello did have the final say over what he did or didn't do in regards to Desmedona. Still didn't stop Iago from pulling the puppet strings. I can see a similar thing happening here, tbh.

Lord Seth
2009-02-22, 06:08 PM
Okay, I have to admit, even if not much happened in this comic, it was pretty darn funny.

Ricky S
2009-02-22, 06:08 PM
OMG V!! This is fantastic. I cannot wait to see how uber V will become. I dont think V really cares about losing h** soul for a while even if it is a long while cause V is on the path to greatness. V will be so epically powerful its making me cry (just a bit).

The Bookworm
2009-02-22, 06:09 PM
I have a feeling this will turn V evil... Still, i think he'll take the offer...

Hamilkar
2009-02-22, 06:10 PM
V's four words are coming. I can feel it.

When s/he said the four words – in a manner that make it clear that these ARE the four words – the mad forum discussion about V's four words will finally cease. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

SPoD
2009-02-22, 06:11 PM
An interesting point. However one would think that it would be in the IFCC's best interest to have V maintain the Soul Splice as long as possible.

One would think that, yes, which is why I feel like the opposite is true. Consider if the IFCC has some plan for V's soul that only takes a few rounds to enact. They then offer him ultimate power that they KNOW he can't hold on to. He manages to kill the dragon in 2 rounds, but loses control of the power before he can go around and fix all the outstanding plot problems. IFCC is satisfied, takes V's soul and does whatever they want with it for 6 rounds (2 per fiend).


I'm a bit more leery of the specific wording that the IFCC is using myself. Specifically, that V gets the final say over his actions. And that he has complete control over the actions of the other three souls that would be bonded to him.

Well, sure. But consider this. V is in a percarious mental state, as you point out. Which means that he might very well listen to the advice/consoul that the newly grafted souls give him. It's the whole Iago thing at work, really. After all, Othello did have the final say over what he did or didn't do in regards to Desmedona. Still didn't stop Iago from pulling the puppet strings. I can see a similar thing happening here, tbh.

Oh, I agree with this entirely. V will have the final word, but he will be so corrupted by the splice that he'll choose to do horrific evil things with the power.

Athaniar
2009-02-22, 06:12 PM
Ah, checking one last time for a new strip rewarded itself this time. Very intriguing, and I foresee

trouble concerning Celestia, where a certain dead fighter happens to be located for the moment.

Blanth
2009-02-22, 06:15 PM
I'm trying to think of things one could be pushed into doing for three hours.

V, go wash our demonic cart.
V, go storm the halls of the Twelve Gods.
V, get us some groceries.

Maybe everything might not actually need to take an hour.

Koretsu
2009-02-22, 06:16 PM
Damn you, Burlew and your half-page strips keeping us in suspense! (Not really. Keep up the good work! :))

Anyone else notice anything funny about the souls in question? Namely, V would gain access to the arcane spells of a Conjurer, a Necromancer, and a spontaneous caster? As I recall, V had Conjuration and Necromancy as bared schools. Wouldn't it be absolutely fiendish if V's new-found power's still followed her class restrictions, and thus through a technicality left her absolutely powerless to use any of them?

Enlong
2009-02-22, 06:18 PM
I think that this is as close to proof as we have now that V's second barred school is Necromancy.

He gets a conjurer (to make up for his barred Conjuration school which is keeping him from teleporting) a Sorcerer (to make up for his reliance on spell slots) and... a Necromancer?

Kish
2009-02-22, 06:20 PM
(The "not preparing spell slots"-thing is to random not to be chaotic).
Sorcerers are not barred from the Lawful alignment.

At this point, I think Rich has decided that the debate on which fiend is which is to be the next great never-to-be-resolved debate to paralyze the forum from now until some time after the fiends have completely disappeared from the strip. Pursuant to that goal, he will likely make a point of assigning "hints" to different ones in each strip.

Cestrian
2009-02-22, 06:20 PM
"The blood of angels will flow like rivers, and we will gather around great dispensors of it to discuss the previous evening's televised entertainment!"

Christ but I love this comic. These guys have only featured in two strips and a panel and I already think they're fantastic.

Lamech
2009-02-22, 06:22 PM
They will give her the souls...

But it will turn out that they forgot to fill any spell slots and V needs to rest for 8 hours to fill them... But, as she has no epic spells in her spellbook, their usefulness will be severely limited

Oh, and they probably only know spells from Book of Vile Darkness, each more corrupting than the last.

So, V, enjoy that neutrality while you still can
Epic level spells don't use spell books you just have to know them... so if she has time to prepare she can cast them. She should have a now banned teleport in her spell book. The necro has the epic death spell momento. It kills stuff with a thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/momentoMori.htm), and she "ended lives with but a thought."

So even if they don't have there slots filled it won't matter. Eight hours cast one of her special scrys on the dragon and kill it with the momento mori. If she takes this offer the dragon dies, no ifs ands or buts, assuming the fiends can't lie of course.

Porthos
2009-02-22, 06:22 PM
They then offer him ultimate power that they KNOW he can't hold on to. He manages to kill the dragon in 2 rounds, but loses control of the power before he can go around and fix all the outstanding plot problems. IFCC is satisfied, takes V's soul and does whatever they want with it for 6 rounds (2 per fiend).

I think I agree with you more than I disagree. :smallsmile: I also think that V's mental state will mean that he won't be able to control the Splice for very long. I'm just not sure it's going to be measured in rounds. But that's a rather small quibble when all is said and done.

A couple of other points. When V asked The Oracle how he could achieve Ultimate Cosmic Power, he forgot to ask how he could keep it.

Whoops. :smallwink:

And the very short term nature of this deal does, rather cleverly I think, solve all of the questions about how V would be come a story unbalancing character if he did in fact become supremely powerful. It stops V from turing into a Walking Talking DeM and instead turns him into a Walking Talking Timebomb.

So instead of posters obsessing over what are the four words going to be, we'll have posters obsessing on when the IFCC will call in their favor (times three).

Fun times. :smallamused:


Wouldn't it be absolutely fiendish if V's new-found power's still followed her class restrictions, and thus through a technicality left her absolutely powerless to use any of them?

That.

That is just wrong. :smalleek:

I approve. :smallcool:

Doubt it's going to happen (if only coz I don't think it quite follows the story that's being set up), but it would be hi-lair-i-ous if it did.

brandr
2009-02-22, 06:27 PM
Rich, I got to say, good comic. this is the chance for some real knife-blade choices for V. whatever happens, i'll be excited to see the outcome, that's for sure!

Adeptus
2009-02-22, 06:29 PM
Ultimate Arcane Power tm here we come!

The Minx
2009-02-22, 06:29 PM
The title: "Where Do Yo See Yourself in Five Million Years?", probably meant to be "You".

Does this sound like a foreshadowing/suggestion of what might be to anyone else? :smalleek:

delguidance
2009-02-22, 06:30 PM
Absolutely riveting comic.

I look forward to the rampant speculations.

Aris Katsaris
2009-02-22, 06:32 PM
Does the Giant prefer typos to be reported in the forum, or via email?

Anyway minor typo in the first panel of the third row: "arane" instead of "arcane".

---

As a sidenote, I still am not able to tell who's Lee, who's Nero and who's Cedric. I hope this isn't kept as ambiguous, because right now it means that despite of alignment the three fiends speak almost identically, which is bad characterization.

(It's one thing to be ambiguous in a characteristic but have good characterization - e.g. V's gender, it's another thing to retain the ambiguity by providing bad vague characterization)

Zanaril
2009-02-22, 06:33 PM
...Is it just me or was anyone else very scared that they might suddenly start singing during this strip?

I wonder how Qarr's reacting to all this.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-22, 06:38 PM
...Is it just me or was anyone else very scared that they might suddenly start singing during this strip?

I wonder how Qarr's reacting to all this.

That was actually how I read it. They were singing this stuff. Kinda like Genje from Disneys: Aladdin

Douglas
2009-02-22, 06:40 PM
These guys look suspiciously familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). I think they chose their moment to start "waiting for the next request" very carefully.

Leo_Forestclaw
2009-02-22, 06:41 PM
...Is it just me or was anyone else very scared that they might suddenly start singing during this strip?.

Odd, I thought they were singing...

(I blame watching Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-long Blog last night, but still, If found the minor 13th in Lee's second aria to be brilliant orchestration)

Nevitan
2009-02-22, 06:44 PM
That sounds like a great deal to me, but I suppose that speaks about my alignment more than anything..

Warren Dew
2009-02-22, 06:44 PM
It strikes me that with Vaarsuvius too low on sleep - er, trance - to hit, it doesn't matter how much power the deal involves.

Vaarsuvius should insist on 8 hours worth of time stop to allow a proper trance.

Pyro
2009-02-22, 06:51 PM
This was a really lovely strip for a couple reasons. I love how artfully the panels were arranged, especially the third one. Who knew perspective could mesh so well with stick figures?

Mc. Lovin'
2009-02-22, 06:52 PM
Hmmm, use of V's soul? I don't like the sound of that :smalleek:

The Minx
2009-02-22, 06:52 PM
These guys look suspiciously familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). I think they chose their moment to start "waiting for the next request" very carefully.

Yup, I called it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5773120#post5773120). EDIT: whoops, I meant here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5773096#post5773096).

Well, sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5778618#post5778618). I really thought that the letter was from Quarr's bosses, so that would imply that word had leaked out to the Devils (assuming Sabine is a Demon), but yes, apparently, cooperation was really as high as Prak thought I was initially suggesting.

Kish
2009-02-22, 06:54 PM
It strikes me that with Vaarsuvius too low on sleep - er, trance - to hit, it doesn't matter how much power the deal involves.
Not every spell requires an attack roll.

fractal
2009-02-22, 06:58 PM
Okay, time for random speculations: Based on the souls they offer i would say that the Orange fiend is Lee (concouring a lot of land seems lawfull to me, very tyrantlike), The purple fiend is Nero (i have no good reasons to believe this other than exclution) and the yellow fiend is Cedric (The "not preparing spell slots"-thing is to random not to be chaotic).
Those were my thoughts too. Orange being Lawful Evil is straightforward enough, but the other two are tricky. Other comments the fiends make could go either way, so all we have to go on is the "killer" being pure Evil, no Law/Chaos bias, while the "master of flexibility" is Chaotic.

afroakuma
2009-02-22, 06:58 PM
Well, I think it's not too early to assume some alignment guesses based on the descriptions of the three magi:

The conqueror Ganonron, and thus Orange, are Lawful Evil. Orange is a Devil.
The apathetic, malevolent Haera Bloodsoak, and thus Purple, are Neutral Evil. Purple is a Daemon.
The insane, unpredictable Jephton, and thus Yellow, are Chaotic Evil. Yellow is a Demon.

The Minx
2009-02-22, 07:00 PM
It strikes me that with Vaarsuvius too low on sleep - er, trance - to hit, it doesn't matter how much power the deal involves.

Vaarsuvius should insist on 8 hours worth of time stop to allow a proper trance.

Perhaps they are counting on him screwing up so he has to accept further deals to track the dragon down. First rule of fiendish deals, never assume the deal pans out, even if it seems fair, legit and with no fine print. :smallsmile:

Or, might the four souls in one get to roll their respective attack rolls? :smallconfused:

Balgus
2009-02-22, 07:02 PM
I must say ... I am tempted. With the combined power, how long does V actually need the bind? And then suffer 3x that -

I am just afraid that they might manipulate time, or perception thereof, so that a second of tourment feels like an eternity - and then 60x that per fiend.

Athaniar
2009-02-22, 07:05 PM
I also rather hastily made a World of Warcraft-style picture (http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Splice.png) appropriate to the strip.

Zanaril
2009-02-22, 07:05 PM
That was actually how I read it. They were singing this stuff. Kinda like Genje from Disneys: Aladdin

That's a relief. I feared it was an evil conjured up by my mind alone, but now I can blame Disney. (I first thought of Aladdin, too.)

Sequinox
2009-02-22, 07:05 PM
The question is, how long will V be able to hold it? With that kind of power, murderizing the dragon shouldn't take very much time. Will V want to keep that power, though?

Also, I noticed that they don't say anything about what happens to V once unbound from the 3. I imagine that it won't be pretty.

Good point... :smalleek:

All in all, nice comic, though. Good as usual here in The Playground.

xanaphia
2009-02-22, 07:14 PM
It seems almost impossible that the deal is what it sounds like. If I were the demons/devils, I'd request some extremely harsher repayment. Like one million GP, due next year, then a year of bondage. So obviously, the deal won't turn out well.

Warren Dew
2009-02-22, 07:25 PM
I have to say I loved the way the fiends' eyes went round when Vaarsuvius guessed at the price.

I think the deal is on the level. In the final battle with the snarl, the fiends may only need a few rounds of control to tip things in their favor. I think the deal even allows them to split up their control into three pieces, so they'd get to intervene three times.

I think that's likely much more valuable than one elf soul.



Redcloak? How's that "we can use Xykon" thing working out for you?

Pretty well so far. Redcloak got to sack Azure City.

Mikhail
2009-02-22, 07:30 PM
It's a nice comic though the Daemons seem not to have an understanding of the politics that they mention at the start. Was that intentional i wonder?

stsasser
2009-02-22, 07:33 PM
V as evil puppet X 3 is a nice avoidance of the 'if V gets ultimate arcane power, it's the end of V's story' issue.

Rakim Avishot
2009-02-22, 07:38 PM
I think that this is as close to proof as we have now that V's second barred school is Necromancy.

He gets a conjurer (to make up for his barred Conjuration school which is keeping him from teleporting) a Sorcerer (to make up for his reliance on spell slots) and... a Necromancer?

The Necro is so that if V gets there just in time to stop the dragon from binding the kids' souls, but she already killed them, then V could get rid of the dragon, then bring them back to life as kindergarten-aged, cheery, red and green haired, macaroni sculpting, ZOMBIES.

holywhippet
2009-02-22, 07:41 PM
V's four words are coming. I can feel it.

When s/he said the four words – in a manner that make it clear that these ARE the four words – the mad forum discussion about V's four words will finally cease. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

I thought the four words were a few strips ago actually: "I cannot fail again".

Cakedeath
2009-02-22, 07:42 PM
These guys look suspiciously familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). I think they chose their moment to start "waiting for the next request" very carefully.

Wow, I didn't notice that. To quote Haley in strip #60, that's a a lot more planning than I thought this strip had.

I thought the new comic was great, one of the funniest strips in months. I really don't see V accepting the offer, though. First of all, V is way too smart to fall for it. They're certainly trying to trick him/her somehow, and besides, there are way too many ways it could go wrong for V to accept. I also think it would just unbalance the strip, blow everything out of proportion, and isn't consistent with V's previous actions and personality. On top of that, I can't really picture it happening. Just try imagining what the next few strips would look like if V did accept. It's just be such a weird direction for the strip to take, it would just be absurd. Serious shark-jumping.

Not that it couldn't happen, the oracle did hint that not everything would go well for the OOtS members, plus the thing about the four words, so it's not impossible, just unlikely.

Hrairoo
2009-02-22, 07:43 PM
hehe, in one fell swoop, u have knocked out all debate of v's alignment, and at the same time, sent the four word theorists into overdrive! well done giant!

i must say though, an "equal amount of time" is completely meaningless for people who can throw up timestops...

is v still acting logically? what's to stop one of the fiends from grabbing him for a couple of rounds to slaughter his family? they can certainly do that faster than he can kill the dragon and still have time to do whatever...

PS-i like the way they are dancing around him in the second panel...

Pentegarn
2009-02-22, 08:10 PM
"Give"? No. Do we look like socialists?

Best. Line. Ever.

MickJay
2009-02-22, 08:14 PM
What I like is the not-so-subtle hint that if V accepts the deal and things work out as planned, it may well mean that he will be ultimately responsible for the total annihilation of everything that is good and holy sometime in the future :smallbiggrin:

Lots of other great stuff in this strip, too :smallsmile:

Rakim Avishot
2009-02-22, 08:18 PM
It seems almost impossible that the deal is what it sounds like. If I were the demons/devils, I'd request some extremely harsher repayment. Like one million GP, due next year, then a year of bondage. So obviously, the deal won't turn out well.

What would they do with gold? Plus, it's bondage proportionate to the service. That is completely fair for them, and actually unfair for V, because he has to work for three times as long as his benefits last.

the_tick_rules
2009-02-22, 08:33 PM
What exactly is a daemon? I've always seen it as a variant spelling of demon. But apparently it is a whole new group.

LucyHarris
2009-02-22, 08:36 PM
Yugoloth, or the NE beasties. Demons are CE, devils are LE.


I also rather hastily made a World of Warcraft-style picture (http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Splice.png) appropriate to the strip.

That's awesome.

Oh, and I am loving the IFCC. I know they're out to get V's soul, but still...I just love comedic evils.

Aaron
2009-02-22, 08:37 PM
V needs to insist on enought advanced time stops to be used to replenish his/her spells first, before considering the deal. But is their enough advanced time stops to last 8 hours so V can "rest", or is their only like 5 hours of time stop avalible? If it's the latter then that means V has to trance for 4 hours and suffer those horible memories again. If V trances then he/she will be able to prepare all his/her spells AND have a clearer mind from not being so trance deprived (the equivalent of humans being cranky and tired).

Either way, DON'T TAKE THE DEAL V!
It's for ALL the wrong reasons!
DON'T TAKE IT!!!:smalleek:

Andre Fairchilde
2009-02-22, 08:40 PM
The title: "Where Do Yo See Yourself in Five Million Years?", probably meant to be "You".

Does this sound like a foreshadowing/suggestion of what might be to anyone else? :smalleek:


Isn't "Yo" Spanish for "I"?

So it would actually read "Whre do "I" see yourself in Five Million Years?"

I do not trust these three - and who's to say that one or two (CE and NE) may be lying?

What if only one of the three was adhering to the truth?

Rakim Avishot
2009-02-22, 08:42 PM
Wow, I didn't notice that. To quote Haley in strip #60, that's a a lot more planning than I thought this strip had.
I'm pretty sure the entire strip has been planned out already

I thought the new comic was great, one of the funniest strips in months.
I really liked the one right before this much more. "*Based on typical wildest imaginings of previous costumers fitting your demographic profile. Additional terms and restrictions may apply." Friggin' hilarious. :biggrin: I just couldn't get onto the forums at first during the previous strip, and after six pages of posts, I decide that it's not worth my time to read it all then post. I only post after I've read all the posts so I don't say something someone else said.

Andre Fairchilde
2009-02-22, 08:43 PM
What exactly is a daemon? I've always seen it as a variant spelling of demon. But apparently it is a whole new group.

Daemons are/were the NE version of Demons (CE) and Devils (LE) from AD&D, and 2d Ed.

Mad Scientist
2009-02-22, 08:43 PM
Hmm . . Does anyone else think this is a bad idea?!?:smalleek:

Nerdanel
2009-02-22, 08:47 PM
What a great comic... :smallbiggrin:

Two points:

1. This looks very much like Ultimate Arcane Power, but does it count as Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power? Being temporary might disqualify it from being complete and total.

2. I'm not certain that we can use the dead mages to determine the alignments of the IFCC members. The IFCC fiends have continuously continued each other's thoughts, so I think they might have shown illusions of souls that didn't match their personal alignment. This deal was obviously pre-planned.

Aaron
2009-02-22, 08:49 PM
Hmm . . Does anyone else think this is a bad idea?!?:smalleek:

Yes. This deal is a bad idea.:smalleek:

Green Bean
2009-02-22, 08:51 PM
Hmm . . Does anyone else think this is a bad idea?!?:smalleek:

How could accepting a deal with devils and demons to gain a great deal of power for a deceptively small price possibly be a bad idea? :smalltongue:

Zevox
2009-02-22, 08:52 PM
Well now, that's one hell of a fascinating offer they just made. If they're telling the truth - and I stress the if there, as there's really no reason to believe a batch of fiends would be wholly truthful in a situation like this - its actually a good deal. Though of course there are serious potential drawbacks, its a far cry from the expected eternal damnation.

Speculation:
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned they may use their time in possession of V's soul to control her while she's near a Gate, which makes sense, and is probably the worst potential drawback of this. Hopefully the Order could collectively stop her if this happens.

A thought I had while reading the comic is that the Soul Splice might have some undesirable side-affects on V's soul. Even if she remains in control, as they claimed, who's to say that being connected to three highly-evil souls wouldn't wind up altering her own alignment for the worse?

Then there's the matter that V may not be content with the limited time she'd have her new super powers. Someone earlier compared this to a drug dealer set up, which is possible. Whether it would go down like that depends on how often the IFCC can perform the Soul Splice (their description of it seems to indicate they literally cannot use it more than once per century) and whether they'd get everything they want from her from the first pact. Even if they can't or won't do it again, though, if V really does become, for lack of a better word, addicted to this power, it could cause some serious problems with her psyche, particularly considering its already frail state. Particularly if, even with all this power, she fails to save her family...

Anyway, I'm guessing next comic will have the Four WordsTM. The offer is the on table, and it definitely fits the bill. V's acceptance in four words is all that's left to fulfill the prophecy.
Oh, I loved the title of the comic. Best one in a while.

I eagerly await the next comic.

Zevox

stsasser
2009-02-22, 08:54 PM
What a great comic... :smallbiggrin:

This deal was obviously pre-planned.

I'm surprised the presentation isn't on PowerPoint slides.

Aaron
2009-02-22, 08:58 PM
How could accepting a deal with devils and demons to gain a great deal of power for a deceptively small price possibly be a bad idea? :smalltongue:

It's a bad idea because in the second to last panel the IFCC said that the deal will leed to the destruction of the upper planes (where Roy is).

Rakim Avishot
2009-02-22, 09:00 PM
What exactly is a daemon? I've always seen it as a variant spelling of demon. But apparently it is a whole new group.

It's basically a Neutral Evil Demon, which I think makes it even more evil, because the description of Neutral L/C is that you just want to spread your G/E alignment and you don't care how it happens. This is why purple is probably the Daemon, since it summoned an apathetic evil seeker.

Rakim Avishot
2009-02-22, 09:05 PM
This looks very much like Ultimate Arcane Power, but does it count as Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power? Being temporary might disqualify it from being complete and total.


If it's for a limited amount of time it's just Total Ultimate Arcane Power.:smallsigh: Jeez, it's like you've never made a deal with the devil before.:sigh:

Rakim Avishot
2009-02-22, 09:12 PM
How could accepting a deal with devils and demons to gain a great deal of power for a deceptively small price possibly be a bad idea? :smalltongue:

The answer is, it can't. Sheesh, I'm beginning to feel like I'm the only one on the forums whose even considered taking a deal with a devil. Come on let's have a good honest vote here people, who's been to DemonCon besides me, huh?!?! You people let me down here.:smallfrown:

theMycon
2009-02-22, 09:29 PM
While I expect lots of negotiation to make sure V has every minute detail explained and to H** liking (hopefully, off-screen for the most part), and can negotiate some small things (I can sleep first, right? I have access to barred schools they can control? I don't lose access to their barred schools? When do you claim my soul? You make no direct efforts to kill me for X amount of time. Etc.), and to get it in writing, I have an idea I'd rather see.

They actually are being perfectly honest and forthright. The deal is exactly how they put it. V really is a test case to prove to their "Lower Downs" and mortals that their schema works. The whole thing goes off without a hitch, and everybody (save the Black Dragon) leaves happy, with their souls largely unmolested.

However, the Fiends start infighting once they have the goods. The end up screwing themselves over with the deal, because they're still trying to get the most benefit for themselves (or their own race).


"Give"? No. Do we look like socialists?
Well, yes. They're red, look almost exactly the same, and they've got a "five-year plan" for the improvement of everyone involved.

SkredlitheOgre
2009-02-22, 09:35 PM
Hellcart and demonhorse. That's just awesome.

Kerouac
2009-02-22, 09:58 PM
Note to Rich: Be sure to change V's skin to gold and eyes to hourglasses if he takes the deal.

Oh my...

Please do this. :belkar:

LuisDantas
2009-02-22, 10:03 PM
Well, that's a... huh.

The only reason for V to turn down this offer is if (s)he has any reservations about furthering a fiend-powered armageddon.

You know, after the first panel of the last line of this strip, I came to conclude that V will have just that kind of reservations (at least) and turn down the offer for just that reason.

After all, what good is it to save hir children and mate if they end up living in a fiend-dominated world?

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-22, 10:05 PM
Strafing, didn't read the thread.

What is with the cinctures? Is there a rule somewhere that arcane casters need to wear tasseled rope belts?

Innis Cabal
2009-02-22, 10:11 PM
This won't work because it is specifically called a "special once-a-century deal". They can each only use Soul Splice once every hundred years, so once this splice is over, they can't do it again for a while.

Also, am I the only one who thinks this will only last a few rounds? The bit about V's "unimpeachable mental fortitude" strikes me as a hidden insult, based on the fact that V is coming apart at the seams. I think that whatever willpower takes to hold on to these splices, V won't actually have it and the whole thing will unravel fairly quickly.

Or you know, they could be lying. I can't say to much about the exact practice....but beleive me when I say the "Limited time offer" isn't always.

Xerrik
2009-02-22, 10:11 PM
Strafing, didn't read the thread.

What is with the cinctures? Is there a rule somewhere that arcane casters need to wear tasseled rope belts?

Only the powerful evil ones. Look it up in The Evil Spellcaster's Guide to Power by Eyluk Door Kie.

Fargo1168
2009-02-22, 10:14 PM
Is anyone seeing how bad this is going to turn out? Who in their right mind would take a deal of: “Hey, I get power for one hour, and three hours of everlasting torture and torment from some of the vilest creatures in existence. What a fabulous deal!” No!

And remember, time is “different” on the plains. Remember Roy? He thought he was up there for a day, and it had been weeks! Now let’s review that little seen in Hell…

“Oh gods, the pain, will it ever end!?”
“Dude, you’ve been here an hour, only a month to go!”
“What!?! Oh gods!”

Ouch.

Blanth
2009-02-22, 10:16 PM
While I expect lots of negotiation to make sure V has every minute detail explained and to H** liking (hopefully, off-screen for the most part)

Perhaps wiser would be to have V reiterate the terms verbatim as only V can do, thus putting the would be bargainers into a state of sleep throwing some provisos of its own while they doze off...

Innis Cabal
2009-02-22, 10:16 PM
Thats the point. We are supposed to know its a bad idea. V isn't.

eras10
2009-02-22, 10:17 PM
I'm sure the inter-fiend cooperation is a nice bonus, and possibly even a direct goal, but if you think that's the end of it, I have an Enchanted Bridge to sell you.

The key point for these guys is stuffing multiple dead evil epic champions into a single living body, on earth, right now. That would be the most powerful spellcaster in centuries, or possibly in history.

Once V loses control, they could do practically anything they wanted to on OOTS planet, with her body as the gateway, that could be done in the allotted time.. assuming the fiends can agree on the agenda. After all, who says that V's body won't be channeling all four sets of power for an unknown time after s / he loses her turn? Something like "Soul Splice sure *sounds* permanent to me.

I could easily see the deal working out like this:

Period 1: V has control for of the joint entity for as long as she can hold it
Period 2: The fields have control for 3X Period 1, each one for X.
Period 3: Control of the joint entity goes to whoever can take it.

Now that would be some not-quite-specified fine print.

What would the fiends do with it? Well, for starters, how about crushing Xykon like a bug and taking control of a Snarl Gate for themselves?

Or they could just kill every other good civilization on the planet and control the world directly.

Either way, I see this opening of an entirely new Evil power center on planet OOTS. I suppose, comic-style, the IFCC could end up fighting over control and mess it all up, but the potential is there.

David Argall
2009-02-22, 10:19 PM
This does seem like the situation for the prediction. We see how V can get the power, and we see how the story is not destroyed by the permanent promotion of V to sorta-godhood since V loses the power quickly. So it really looks like she accepts here.

Now there has got to be a [or several] hook. We know the IFCC knows about the gates and V's involvement in them. Just by co-incidence they select V? Nobody seems willing to defend that idea. [Now there is the point that a million to one shot is a sure thing, but that applies only when drama has a need, which amounts to saying something is up anyway.] So we can assume the fiends are lying in some major respects.

Now the admitted danger, that this might lead to the union of evil to destroy good, is likely to be ignorable. Piers Anthony [Golem in the Gears?] gives a good example of why. Evil is evil. Even tho it can profit by co-operating, it knows it can profit even more by pretending to co-operate and letting its partner take the losses while it grabs the loot. So the fiends assemble a triple army to attack the heavens. They issue the order to charge, and nobody moves, each third wanting the other two parts to get cut up while it walks up and loots the remains. The demonstration is thus useless. Everybody already knows such a deal would be profitable, but each knows that treachery is even profitable, and that the others know this.

Now the idea that the fiends will get to control V at some crucial time, say when he is right next to the next gate, is dubious. The details given of the deal don't really fit this. Still, with a little twisting, it could fit, and fiends are well known for twisting.

Andre Fairchilde
2009-02-22, 10:20 PM
My fear is that they get to pick their hours...

For example, goes on with life - and then at the worst possible moment (For V and humanity) the CE Demon get's his/her hour.

After that calamity, then adventuring life goes on - and then the LE Devil get's his hour.

Or even worse - they may take he hours in increments of seconds - how long does is take to cast a spell on the wrong person, or say the worst thing?

Three hours, 180 minutes, can lead to a cursed lifetime.

Even worse, each minute (60 seconds) = 10 rounds of combat (6 seconds each). Breaking up the 180 minutes equals 1800 evil combat actions, killing the wrong people, etc.

theMycon
2009-02-22, 10:20 PM
More Horrible Ideas™ for V to consider.

Notice they said "as long as you CAN hold on to it." Not as long as you successfully try to hold on to it. We have no evidence that holding on to it isn't as easy (or even necessary) as "have sapience" of "breathe." They can hold H** soul as long as they like that way.

Two: They're not just lying and/or cheating, they're flat-out making everything up, period. There's no IFCC, there's no deal, there's no time stop, and there's no ultimate cosmic power. They're all just Sabine's bosses who somehow intercepted Qarr's missive, and they're gonna trick V into just accepting their domination. Just three Demons and some flashy showmanship. Heck, just one Demon and really good use of Bardic abilities.

Optimystik
2009-02-22, 10:26 PM
These guys have perused Unearthed Arcana, and decided to crank the Gestalt Rules up to OVER 9000!!!!

Fixed that for you :smallwink:

docstrange
2009-02-22, 10:27 PM
This is a very interesting proposal for V, but I would rather have seen it presented in another way than a cloud of text from three pretty much stationary robed dudes... and a cloud of text that's hard to read, by the way, because the word balloons are done in demonic colors.

Maybe if the last two pages could have told the story more pictorally... and wow, I'm pretty sure this is the first remotely critical thing I've said about this excellent comic.

Illeveun
2009-02-22, 10:34 PM
I have a feeling that the four words are nigh

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-22, 10:45 PM
Only the powerful evil ones. Look it up in The Evil Spellcaster's Guide to Power by Eyluk Door Kie.

I shall, but wrt OotS, please don't make me read through the comic again, I just finished my last read through, but since this comic made it so blatant with the seven cinctures in it, I'm pretty sure all the robe wearers have it. The druid, Roy's dad, the apprentice wizard, Roy's father's mentor, the guy guarding the gate, the magical representation of my inability to remember names, heck, even Xykon.

A moment's thought says it's just part and parcel with the whole, "It's a stick figure comic," thing, but as a minor detail it's interesting to note that the mortals tie them as laymen, but the devil/daemon/demon tie them as priests.

EDIT: Google returns nothing! And here I thought it'd be something like the Evil Overlord list. :\

noncaloric
2009-02-22, 10:45 PM
Not sure about the four words being close. They have to be to the right being (singular, and arguably these are the wrong beings) for all the wrong reasons (and here, V has some pretty good reasons).

Balthazar
2009-02-22, 10:51 PM
Am I the only one that thinks that this deal doesn't work for the dev..dem... evil things? Think about it, if the evil magicians were offered the same deal as V was, then they use up 3 soul uses to get 3 uses of a weaker soul. So unless they view V as more valuable then this doesn't work. Also I'm new here so whee.

Achilles
2009-02-22, 10:56 PM
I will feel quite cheated if the four words don't show up soon. If V takes this and somehow does become evil, at least he'd relate to Belkar more.

Mauve Shirt
2009-02-22, 10:57 PM
Seems like an OK deal to me.... if V can hold onto the souls. And if the evil dudes can be trusted.
Yeah, I bet the four words are coming up. "I accept your offer" seems likely.

Shadowbane
2009-02-22, 11:00 PM
I totally see V becoming addicted to this. I think he's going to become drunk with power, so to speak.

Lamech
2009-02-22, 11:07 PM
Now there has got to be a [or several] hook. We know the IFCC knows about the gates and V's involvement in them. Just by co-incidence they select V? Nobody seems willing to defend that idea. [Now there is the point that a million to one shot is a sure thing, but that applies only when drama has a need, which amounts to saying something is up anyway.] So we can assume the fiends are lying in some major respects.
I think they are not lying but leaving out details. For example that pre-approved thing probably started right before Quaar sent his application. They are probably getting more benefit than just the proof of concept, but they never said they were not. And the deal is fair each fiend lends him a soul, and he lends each fiend a soul, a perfectly even trade. I suspect three rounds is plenty of time to mess up V's soul.

Hmm... I wonder if cloister could break a soul splice. Something tells me it can stop any pesky divinations those casters have.

Cestrian
2009-02-22, 11:09 PM
Am I the only one that thinks that this deal doesn't work for the dev..dem... evil things? Think about it, if the evil magicians were offered the same deal as V was, then they use up 3 soul uses to get 3 uses of a weaker soul. So unless they view V as more valuable then this doesn't work. Also I'm new here so whee.

I don't see anything which indicates that the fiends don't get the souls back once V has finished with them. In which case they don't have to ask for much in return because they can make the deal as many times as they want. It's always cheaper to rent something than buy it.

Which isn't to say that they don't think V is so important (either simply due to the fact that she's currently alive and available to use as a demonstration or another reason) that they're willing to trade their three best souls for her but we don't know that for certain.

Also the evil magicains would have probably ended up in the hells, and therefore with the fiends, without any deal made for them just on the basis of being evil so we shouldn't assume that they're only there temporarily.

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-22, 11:15 PM
at least he'd relate to Belkar more.

Who says? There are different kinds of evil. Belkar's a "let's do evil things cuz it feels good" kind of evil. V would definitely come out as a "ends justifies the means" evil. He could still be self righteous about it.

That's what I wanted to happen to Miko... descent into Blackguard while spinning a larger and larger web of self-justification. Except that's probably been argued to death and I'm opening a can of worms mentioning it... but I've been waiting to say it anyways.

I'm really excited that I may still get to see it happen, if not the character I thought it'd be.

Gloverboy
2009-02-22, 11:26 PM
These guys look suspiciously familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). I think they chose their moment to start "waiting for the next request" very carefully.

Oooohhh boy. Thats...Thats a problem right there.

Ok, its probably gonna happen. And if it does, all I ask for is some pretty fireworks.

genXesis
2009-02-22, 11:38 PM
So here's what I am pondering right now...

Are these guys concerned about the Snarl or no? If yes, then why give V this power now and not down the road when V is going up against the Snarl or Xykon. If not, why take interest in V at all?

I'm pretty sure these guys are concerned, but I just don't see why they're doing this now. They can't honestly expect V to hold onto these souls for THAT long.

Elfich
2009-02-22, 11:46 PM
Hmmmm. Time for posters to try to rip this deal apart and see in what ways it horribly screws V over, methinks. :smallwink:

Personally I'll start with:

So the IFCC gets to control V's soul for a length of time some time in the future. Yeah, can't see that coming back to bite V in the ass. :smallamused:

After all, what happens when V and the gang get close to another gate? I would think that the IFCC would absolutely love to have a person under their direct control should the Order ever get near another gate

Especially if Sabine and Nale are around to provide backup.

Can't say I see this ending well at all for V. Not at all.:smalleek:


--The first hit of any drug is always free. I'm waiting to see Varsuvius in "ultimate-power-withdrawal" after the three 'super-mages' are released. Then it is a question as to whether V comes crawling back for a second shot.

Solara
2009-02-22, 11:50 PM
Pretty well so far. Redcloak got to sack Azure City.

Someone's never read SoD...I don't think he'd say it was working out like he wanted at all, especially now that it's so clear which one of them's the bitch and which is the BUTCH, as a certain lich put it. :smalleek: .

Solara
2009-02-22, 11:57 PM
Are these guys concerned about the Snarl or no? If yes, then why give V this power now and not down the road when V is going up against the Snarl or Xykon. If not, why take interest in V at all?


Probably because they want to be in control of him at the crucial moment, not handing out ultimate power he can use just any way he wants.

The Hop Goblin
2009-02-23, 12:02 AM
Given his tenacity for pushing himself to unbelievable limits, this can get very bad. All the 3 baddies have to do is clock him with a spell that restores him as if he had slept, give him this new-fangled deal, and let him hold onto it for weeks.

Given V's unquenchable lust for power, it's a winning combination. Plus it also suggests that these three can and will take him up on his deal at any time. So say years down the line V is defending the last gate; Oh... sorry lad, gonna go ahead and suck your soul out for a bit in an act of completely perfect dramatic timing.

Thems the breaks.

sum1won
2009-02-23, 12:05 AM
So....

The evil seems to be not V losing his soul for a few hours/fiend, but three of the most powerful evil spellcasters running loose on the world all at the same time.

LuisDantas
2009-02-23, 12:06 AM
If V takes this and somehow does become evil, at least he'd relate to Belkar more.

And that would be a good thing because...?

Doopliss
2009-02-23, 12:12 AM
--The first hit of any drug is always free.Just as a point of order, I'm pretty sure that's false.

Wow, seems like V lucked out. It's about time, and I'm sure this will still bite V later on down the road, but it could definitely be a lot worse.

Starscream
2009-02-23, 12:13 AM
Fantastic strip! Clever, hilarious, and advances the plot significantly. This is why I read OOTS.

I have to reject the idea that the deal won't allow V to access h** prohibited schools of magic. It's in the IFCC's interest for V to try to hold onto the power as long as possible. If it is useless to h**, why keep it for any longer than it takes to discover that? Presumably this also means that any sorcerer spells cast will use the sorcerer-soul's charisma rather than being affected by V's documented deficit in that stat.

The part of this deal that's fiendishly clever (sorry) is the self corrupting nature of it. V could probably take down the dragon in a round or two using this power, but may be tempted to hold onto it much longer, thus compelling h** to do more evil acts in the end. Giving up a minute of your freedom to save your family probably isn't an evil act. Giving up hours or days just because you are addicted definitely is. The fiends might end up with V's soul in the end anyway, and for a fraction of what they would have had to pay to buy it outright.

Know what I'd have V do if I were them? Kill Xykon and Redcloak. Seriously. That would:
A) Prevent the destruction of the universe (which would be as bad for the lower planes as for everyone else)
B) Leave the gates intact to be tampered with by someone else, i.e., someone under their control
C) Net the fiends the souls of two powerful evil beings, both of whom are functionally immortal. Clearly those two are going down when they die, but neither age so they could keep going for centuries. How frustrating for the fiends. Surely getting both of them would be a bigger gain than the soul of a mid level elven wizard. Redcloak is Lawful Evil, Xykon is Chaotic Evil. Maybe Tsusiko is Neutral Evil, and throw her in there as well. Each of the fiendish factions gets a powerful new soul out of the deal.

Arbitrarity
2009-02-23, 12:15 AM
I bet the "demons play with your soul" also occurs whenever they feel like it, and also involves time manipulation. Remember that the island is in a special Timestop? If they can do that, then they can borrow V's soul for an indefinite time.

Aystra
2009-02-23, 12:20 AM
I think V is going to accept in the end but I hope V doesn't have too much trouble with Lee, Nero, and Cedrik..

Lyon
2009-02-23, 12:24 AM
Has anyone taken into consideration that they may actually be telling the truth? It may just be because in campaigns that I've played in, they knew what the audience (in that case the PCs, but in this case it would be the OOTS readers) would be expecting. An all damning contract with all sorts of hidden innuendo is just the kind of thing fiends do, we all know it. I'm just throwing out the possibility that, as a curveball, the offer might be genuine. I think it would certainly be a "tweest"

Talith
2009-02-23, 12:30 AM
So I think the best way this can go is that V accepts, takes power for a single standard action (teleport + memento mori, would be a free action if you could cast one quickened spell per round) and then gives it up.

Prak
2009-02-23, 12:52 AM
first: THank you Rich!! Evil's dealing (more or less) fairly!


Hmmmm. Time for posters to try to rip this deal apart and see in what ways it horribly screws V over, methinks. :smallwink:

Personally I'll start with:

So the IFCC gets to control V's soul for a length of time some time in the future. Yeah, can't see that coming back to bite V in the ass. :smallamused:

After all, what happens when V and the gang get close to another gate? I would think that the IFCC would absolutely love to have a person under their direct control should the Order ever get near another gate

Especially if Sabine and Nale are around to provide backup.

Can't say I see this ending well at all for V. Not at all.:smalleek:

They "can't" control V in hir life, they get hir soul when shi dies.

About the worst way this can backfire is by V holding the splice for a long time. Which shi could have help doing. However, shi may just decide to become immortal or a lich to try to get out of hir price, which could p!ss off the IFCC, or could make them rather proud and eager to work something out. If shi unnaturally extends hir lifespan, and continues to hold the splice, shi could argue that hir time holding the splice is still accumulating and that it's in their best interest to allow hir to continue to live so that once shi died they get hir soul for longer periods of time.


The main immediate problem that I and many other posters have seen in this deal is that there is nothing in it that says that the IFCC has to wait until V is dead before they get to take control of his soul for an amount of time.
They aren't taking control, they get hir soul in their domain. in other words, it's possession of hir soul, not use.


Okay, time for random speculations: Based on the souls they offer i would say that the Orange fiend is Lee (concouring a lot of land seems lawfull to me, very tyrantlike), The purple fiend is Nero (i have no good reasons to believe this other than exclution) and the yellow fiend is Cedric (The "not preparing spell slots"-thing is to random not to be chaotic).
beat you to it, just hadn't figured out the names. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5788712&postcount=80) But Lee's yellow
Nero's orange
Cedric's purple
in my obsetvations, that is.


Anyone else notice anything funny about the souls in question? Namely, V would gain access to the arcane spells of a Conjurer, a Necromancer, and a spontaneous caster? As I recall, V had Conjuration and Necromancy as bared schools. Wouldn't it be absolutely fiendish if V's new-found power's still followed her class restrictions, and thus through a technicality left her absolutely powerless to use any of them?
That would suck... but...


I think that this is as close to proof as we have now that V's second barred school is Necromancy.

He gets a conjurer (to make up for his barred Conjuration school which is keeping him from teleporting) a Sorcerer (to make up for his reliance on spell slots) and... a Necromancer?
I was thinking more along the lines of:
Conjurer- let's hir teleport
Necromancer- gives hir the will to do what needs to be done
Sorcerer- allows hir to ignore preparation


Well, sort of. I really thought that the letter was from Quarr's bosses, so that would imply that word had leaked out to the Devils (assuming Sabine is a Demon), but yes, apparently, cooperation was really as high as Prak thought I was initially suggesting.
Yep, apparently there's some cooperation, I had no reason to think of an organization founded on inter fiend cooperation, but I was (happily) mistaken.

and holy crap, I'm getting memorable...


What exactly is a daemon? I've always seen it as a variant spelling of demon. But apparently it is a whole new group
Usually it is a variant spelling of Demon, or a way to call something a demon without using the exact word, but in D&D the daemons are neutral evil fiends, also known as Yugoloths, just as devils are also, by in large, known as Ba'atorians, and the demons are, mostly, known as Tanar'ri.


Hmm . . Does anyone else think this is a bad idea?!?
I think it's a great idea, but then I'm evil.


The answer is, it can't. Sheesh, I'm beginning to feel like I'm the only one on the forums whose even considered taking a deal with a devil. Come on let's have a good honest vote here people, who's been to DemonCon besides me, huh?!?! You people let me down here.
Nah, I've considered it, and offered it many times, I just don't have much to bargain with, I guess...

Limos
2009-02-23, 12:58 AM
So I think the best way this can go is that V accepts, takes power for a single standard action (teleport + memento mori, would be a free action if you could cast one quickened spell per round) and then gives it up.

That's all well and good, but if people are right and the three fiends never specified that they would be taking Hir soul after s/he dies then that would give them three standard actions to work work with. Imagine the party has successfully taken the snarl gates...

Disintegrate
Disintegrate
Disintegrate

Three Standard actions, from a living near epic wizard, taking them completely by surprise. Means 3 dead party members.

Axl_Rose
2009-02-23, 01:13 AM
My guess is that



V is overflowing with power. He stops the dragon; probably kills her (the poor thing) and then uses his godlike power to dimensional anchor the 3 fiends and kill THEM before they can make use of him.

Red XIV
2009-02-23, 01:39 AM
Hmm . . Does anyone else think this is a bad idea?!?:smalleek:
It's a deal with the devil. Er, and the demon, and the daemon.

Of course it's a bad idea. Or perhaps, and Evil idea. :smallbiggrin:


Hmm... I wonder if cloister could break a soul splice. Something tells me it can stop any pesky divinations those casters have.
Would Cloister have worn off of Haley and company yet?

But even if it hasn't...Cloister is able to block virtually all forms of magical transportation, communication, and surveillance (except the deliberately built-in execption for summoning), even ones that weren't invented until afterward, because it's Epic-level magic. But if V has Epic-level magic of his own (which he would under this deal, at least for however long he could maintain the Soul Splice), he could create his own Epic spell with the specific trait of "overcoming whatever prevents me from finding Haley".

EdgarVerona
2009-02-23, 01:44 AM
I have a theory... I hate to mention theories aloud, but it was too tempting to resist in this case. I hope it is the situation. =)


It seems to me that these three ARE the mages in question who will graft with him.

Between the three of them, they have the power to freeze time.

If V grafts with them, he too will be able to freeze time. Therefore, he could use their power indefinitely without penalty so long as he keeps time frozen.

holywhippet
2009-02-23, 01:47 AM
That's all well and good, but if people are right and the three fiends never specified that they would be taking Hir soul after s/he dies then that would give them three standard actions to work work with. Imagine the party has successfully taken the snarl gates...

Disintegrate
Disintegrate
Disintegrate

Three Standard actions, from a living near epic wizard, taking them completely by surprise. Means 3 dead party members.

I disagree. Belkar and Roy would most likely make their fortitude save and survive unless they are very low on HP.

Inhuman Bot
2009-02-23, 01:49 AM
If noone else has mentioned it, The title has a little typo, as it assumedly is "where do yoU, etc"

silvadel
2009-02-23, 02:02 AM
Of course V could use the power to transport the three fiends to the rift and toss them in.....

Ave
2009-02-23, 02:56 AM
Well, still no four words!

Of course, the four words MIGHT be "I decline your offer."

After all, the Good Planes might be willing to reward someone who would be willing to turn down such an offer. :smallbiggrin:

And the "wrong reason" would be that he suspects trick, when there isn't trick. The fiends truly tried to end the blood war (which would be catastrophic to the Heaven side).

KIDS
2009-02-23, 03:07 AM
I love the Oscar night/War of the Worlds reference in the second last panel. Even if it wasn't an Oscar night/War of the Worlds reference, I still love it.

iTookUrNick
2009-02-23, 03:23 AM
I believe someone mentioned this kind of "fair deal" on the boards. They'll probably be jumping about saying "I knew it!" :smallsmile:

And, of course, great comic. Just please let us stay with V a little more!

DougTheHead
2009-02-23, 04:22 AM
So V's going to help bring about Armageddon for a convenient demon-deal? Yeah, the four words are coming any day now.

SmartAlec
2009-02-23, 05:44 AM
Are we to assume that the IFCC are interested in the Snarl because it would give them sufficient force to strong-arm the three Fiendish races into working together, on pain of being Snarled?

Vitriolic Tonic
2009-02-23, 06:02 AM
Something's got to go horribly wrong here. After all, if the deal is even close to being like what the fiends describe, why stop with the dragon? There's no reason why Vaarsuvius couldn't also Wish Roy back to life, find Haley, destroy Xykon once and for all and even put a permanent end to the antics of the Linear Guild with that kind of power, especially if it can be maintained for weeks.

Tundar
2009-02-23, 06:23 AM
V might take the deal but be intoxicated by power and end up being forced to perform evil acts for weeks of even longer.
That's a very good assumption. As [GM] Dave says it:
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I can't wait to see the look on the black dragon's face when V pops at it's belly and blast it into the next week.

The Minx
2009-02-23, 06:23 AM
Are we to assume that the IFCC are interested in the Snarl because it would give them sufficient force to strong-arm the three Fiendish races into working together, on pain of being Snarled?

That would be my guess. Either that, or they are going to go for the ultimate war on their own initiative with the Snarl and whatever fiends they can quickly muster and the prestige gained thereby would grant them power over the fiends afterwards (this haste being justified in order to prevent the gods having enough time to come up with some kind of counter plan).

EmeraldPhoenix
2009-02-23, 06:34 AM
Hey, I haven't read all the posts, so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but it says "Order of the Stick 633 Where Do Yo See Yourself in Five Million Years?" when it should say where do YOU See Yourself in Five Million Years?

The Minx
2009-02-23, 06:43 AM
Hey, I haven't read all the posts, so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but it says "Order of the Stick 633 Where Do Yo See Yourself in Five Million Years?" when it should say where do YOU See Yourself in Five Million Years?

Yup, you're right. (I think I mentioned it somewhere.) :smallwink:

There was another typo in the comic, just leads to show that the Giant isn't getting enough sleep or something. :smallfrown:

Cúchulainn
2009-02-23, 06:56 AM
He's up all the time trying to meet his '3 comics a week' deadline so that those guys who make threads about it won't kill his family.

The Minx
2009-02-23, 07:06 AM
He's up all the time trying to meet his '3 comics a week' deadline so that those guys who make threads about it won't kill his family.

And soon, Lee, Nero and Cedric will appear and offer to splice his soul with that of Dante, Shakespeare and Tolkien for Complete and Total Unlimited Storytelling Power!!

Don't do it Giant! :smalleek:

factotum
2009-02-23, 07:24 AM
Something's got to go horribly wrong here. After all, if the deal is even close to being like what the fiends describe, why stop with the dragon? There's no reason why Vaarsuvius couldn't also Wish Roy back to life, find Haley, destroy Xykon once and for all and even put a permanent end to the antics of the Linear Guild with that kind of power, especially if it can be maintained for weeks.

I think the fiends may be spicing the deal somewhat when they say he can maintain it for weeks; either that, or they're lying when they say he will be the dominant entity in the gestalt. I don't think V is going to be able to hold on to this for more than a few minutes at best.

motub
2009-02-23, 08:03 AM
More Horrible Ideas™ for V to consider.

Notice they said "as long as you CAN hold on to it." Not as long as you successfully try to hold on to it. We have no evidence that holding on to it isn't as easy (or even necessary) as "have sapience" of "breathe." They can hold H** soul as long as they like that way.
The worst part of that is.... you notice that no one said what precisely happens when V is no longer able to "hold onto it".

You sort of presume that the splice will dissolve, kinda like an organ transplant being rejected, and the spliced souls simply return to their damnation, but who's to say that V's failure to maintain superiority over the splice doesn't result in hir being consumed (overwhelmed/overpowered) by the spliced souls, who then get to run about and do their thing with complete control over hir body.... for the rest of hir natural life (which is likely to be quite long).

I think the deal is mostly as stated, for the stated reasons, but of course they are infernal beings, and all evil; they cannot be expected to be completely honest. But I think here they've limited themselves to lies of ommission.

Think about it though-- if the deal was really completely on the up-and-up as stated, and everything went smoothly, the result would be that V would be a satisfied customer of a deal with the devil.

That's just too much of a contradiction in terms to even be possible, much less "likely to happen right now, this minute".

Oh, and by the way, hilarious strip-- nice to see one in the classic style that hooked me on OotS in the first place.

Lamech
2009-02-23, 08:03 AM
And soon, Lee, Nero and Cedric will appear and offer to splice his soul with that of Dante, Shakespeare and Tolkien for Complete and Total Unlimited Storytelling Power!!

Don't do it Giant! :smalleek:

NOT IAMBIC PENTAMETER! Don't do it giant, we don't all like shakespeare's stuff... Oh and making deals with fiends is bad...

Recaiden
2009-02-23, 08:14 AM
I think that its a pretty good plan the fiends have. But for something like this, why was Varsuvius pre-aproved? Or was he/she approved for any type of deal, and they got it?

Koretsu
2009-02-23, 08:18 AM
And soon, Lee, Nero and Cedric will appear and offer to splice his soul with that of Dante, Shakespeare and Tolkien for Complete and Total Unlimited Storytelling Power!!

Don't do it Giant! :smalleek:

Seriously. Don't do it. Tolkien may have been a great story teller, but his writing itself was atrocious. And I think we can all agree OOTS would not be as fun is 95% of the updates were about them walking to the next gate. >.>

snafu
2009-02-23, 08:28 AM
Think about it though-- if the deal was really completely on the up-and-up as stated, and everything went smoothly, the result would be that V would be a satisfied customer of a deal with the devil.

That's just too much of a contradiction in terms to even be possible, much less "likely to happen right now, this minute".

Why should she not be satisfied? Certainly most such stories are morality plays aimed at proving the superiority of spiritual over carnal satisfaction, and so the deal is not a good one - but if the devil never has a satisfied customer, then sooner or later he'll be out of the business. Anyone ever had a deal with the devil (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/authors/grimms/120threeapprentices.html) with which they ended up perfectly satisfied?



"All three of us!"
"For money!"
"And quite right too!"


The idea of a diabolical timeshare on V's soul is fair, but dangerous. Remember what became of John Constantine when he sold a devil a day of his life in exchange for rescue from a fanatical cult?

They took that day in instalments over a couple of decades of Constantine's future, using him to father three children who would grow up to destroy him. Then brought the three of them back to the present and set them loose on the world. Oops.

Since our friends from Below are getting back exactly as many soul-hours as they are paying out, there's no direct benefit to them - so if they're trying to prove a point to the rest of the infernal realms, then they must have an angle. Either they have something spectacular planned for their use of V - or more subtly, they mean to do nothing too drastic with her, just enough to get her used to doing evil and let her get the idea that the price was well worth paying. Then let her become a regular customer, repeatedly exchanging time in service of Hell for bursts of great power, and soon enough she'll be so used to doing the devil's work that she'll be doing evil on her own time as well.

And then in the fullness of time they get her soul anyway.

Ikialev
2009-02-23, 08:42 AM
So, Those Three Guys In Red Cloaks want his soul for an hour?
What can you do with a soul in an hour?
And what is a daemon?
And why is YellowMan's cloak around him, it doesn't fit.
And why Jephton the Unhaly doesn't need to prepare spell slots?

cycoris
2009-02-23, 08:51 AM
Since our friends from Below are getting back exactly as many soul-hours as they are paying out, there's no direct benefit to them - so if they're trying to prove a point to the rest of the infernal realms, then they must have an angle. Either they have something spectacular planned for their use of V - or more subtly, they mean to do nothing too drastic with her, just enough to get her used to doing evil and let her get the idea that the price was well worth paying. Then let her become a regular customer, repeatedly exchanging time in service of Hell for bursts of great power, and soon enough she'll be so used to doing the devil's work that she'll be doing evil on her own time as well.

And then in the fullness of time they get her soul anyway.

Yes, your theory makes quite a lot of sense. More sense than mine, no doubt.

For some reason, my first thought was that there was some sort of bet going on that V would never make a bargain with the devil. I dunno why.

HOLEkevin
2009-02-23, 09:08 AM
It's hard for me to see Vaarsuvius saying no to this. Of course they haven't said anything about what the soul-splice might do to his alignment, but I imagine that's a secondary concern anyway.

Undead Prince
2009-02-23, 09:15 AM
Something's got to go horribly wrong here. After all, if the deal is even close to being like what the fiends describe, why stop with the dragon? There's no reason why Vaarsuvius couldn't also Wish Roy back to life, find Haley, destroy Xykon once and for all and even put a permanent end to the antics of the Linear Guild with that kind of power, especially if it can be maintained for weeks.

Here's the horribly wrong part as I see it.

Any DnD powergamer would know that a properly played wizard or cleric is an insanely powerful force that can single-handedly slay dukes of hell. Dare I say Leadership + Cooperative Magic + Circle Magic + Consumptive Field + (Planar Binding/Dominate Monster = Dominated Wish-giving Efreeti = various items and artifacts obtainable through free Wishes) + Gate = Archfiends dragged crying like sissies from wherever they're hiding and subjected to crazy-high DC spells. And that's BEFORE reaching epic levels.

FOUR wizards in a Gestalt character, three of them Epic - that's more powerful than ANY creature in the DnD gamebooks/monster manuals, including Asmodeus as presented in FCII. Only Gods have a chance of stopping something like that.

I'd say gameplay wise, V would have the power to kill or at least evade the three "archfiends", even if they're Asmodeus, Demogorgon and whatever-yugoloth themselves.

But that would not stop the horribly wrong from happening. Bear with me here.

The fiends are obviously not much interested in V's soul per se. By itself it's not something three Archfiends would be personally bothered with (unless we buy into the IFCC "cooperation" being their only concern, which goes against both their nature and the previous plot exposition). Their target is the Snarl and - consequently - controlling the Uber-Gestalt V in the right place at the right time to properly affect the situation in the benefit of Evil.

This control can't really be done through the soul - as per term of the Faustian Pact (FCII), the fiends get their hands on it only after V's death.

Also, by the letter of the deal, the fiends can't get control of the Uber-Gestalt creature through the three epic evildoers defeating V's ego. Of course, the epic spellcasters' mental stats are certainly much higher than V's - but once V loses control, the splice ends as per contract.

However.

"A Pact Certain contains language in which the mortal explicitely affirms allegiance to a Lord of Hell and promises to walk the paths of law and evil in exchange for whatever benefits are offered. Mortals signing such pacts immediately switch alignment to lawful evil... The mere act of consciously assigning one's soul to a lord of Hell is, by the terms of the Pact Primeval, an irredeemably and intrinsically evil act" (FCII).

Even though the contract does not provide for "walking the path of law and evil", it does assign V's soul to a lord of Hell. Whether it is for an hour or for eternity is irrelevant - the act itself is enough. Moreover, the act is irredeemable, i.e. cannot be nullified by subsequent atonement. So, unless the entire ABD situation was caused by the fiends ("duress clause"), by entering the bargain V condemns his soul to Hell for eternity and becomes lawful evil.

And here we come to the REAL danger - the Uber-Gestalt in service of an evil character.

THAT would be horribly wrong. It would entirely upset the balance of the OOTS world, and - with access to the Snarl gates - would also give Evil an unstoppable doomsday device.

So, even if the fiends would not have direct control of V, they WOULD have an evil-aligned powerhouse in control of the Snarl gates.

What beats me, though, is why didnt the fiends just Dominate V, or - better - Control Undead on Xykon, or - still better - resurrect the three evil wizards and task them with what needs to be done. For that matter, why not resurrect ALL major evildoers. That would be some tipping of balance, especially in this particular Snarl-sensitive moment of time.

P.S. - As to the Time Stop being a lie, V probably has already made a Spellcraft check to recognise it as valid, or at least something too powerful for him to discern (DC 29 for regular Time Stop, at 14th lvl he has a min of 17 ranks in the skill), otherwise he would've dismissed the entire ordeal much like he dismissed Quarr. -

That's it for today, I suppose. Mr Burlew, Kudos for the great comic.

Z-dan
2009-02-23, 09:34 AM
How many pages of discussion before I get a chance to even see the comic? :smalleek:

I'm not going through all that... But personally I very much see the junkie approach- 'I now have complete and total ultimate arcane power! I can do anything I wish at the flick of a wrist! Wassat? damnation? yeah, whatever, just give me 2 more minutes of this power...'
Plus there's the fact that I could see all 4 souls in V's body literally tearing him apart... especially when you've got at least one of each alignment (lawful/chaotic wise)

Either way, there's gonna be one hell of a fight scene when V does catch up with the dragon...

Destichado
2009-02-23, 10:20 AM
Hogwash. V's far more disciplined than that. S/he's just desperate and not considering everything that might go wrong.

How much fun would it be for a demon to say, "Oh, you used your thirty minutes of power to use me to save your family! Sweet. I'm using my thirty minutes of power to use you to kill them. Isn't it ironic?"

Or how fulfilling would it be for a devil to use V as a trump card in an emergency to blast their enemies (the LG paladins) and save their agents (Redcloak), reversing potentially months of planning and effort in a single stroke.

I have no freaking clue what a daemon would do with the power -and that's kind of the point.

Raenir Salazar
2009-02-23, 11:33 AM
my prediction is that V manages to surprise the Fiends and takes complete and total control of the situation.

Second possibility is that rather then have the splice end and be returned to damnation the 3 beings will try to keep it going either be intentionally bowing to V and letting her have complete control or be agreeing to a timeshare where each within reason gets a turn.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-02-23, 11:45 AM
Random thought: Has anyone else noticed that in any frame where a fiend speaks, they all speak? I'm not saying this means anything in particular, it just jumped out at me.

It strikes me that with Vaarsuvius too low on sleep - er, trance - to hit, it doesn't matter how much power the deal involves.

Vaarsuvius should insist on 8 hours worth of time stop to allow a proper trance.Would you settle down for a nice nap in the presence of three fiends (and an imp!)?

I'm pretty sure the entire strip has been planned out alreadyI think I've seen somewhere where Rich says he has about 5 years of plot to draw comics for.

Since our friends from Below are getting back exactly as many soul-hours as they are paying out, there's no direct benefit to them - so if they're trying to prove a point to the rest of the infernal realms, then they must have an angle.They are getting back three times the "soul-hours", and they have not limited this use in any way. The bargain may look fair to some, but it is not at all.

Here's the horribly wrong part as I see it.

Any DnD powergamer would know that a properly played wizard or cleric is an insanely powerful force that can single-handedly slay dukes of hell. [snippage]
FOUR wizards in a Gestalt character, three of them Epic - that's more powerful than ANY creature in the DnD gamebooks/monster manuals, including Asmodeus as presented in FCII. Only Gods have a chance of stopping something like that.

I'd say gameplay wise, V would have the power to kill or at least evade the three "archfiends", even if they're Asmodeus, Demogorgon and whatever-yugoloth themselves.Mebbe. But it's hard to bring your power to bear on the fiends if you lose control of the gestalt after killing only one of them, or whatever. Besides, don't you have to kill them on their own plane to kill them permanently? And that would involve three different planes, yes? Sounds time consuming, starting from the standpoint of being on a deserted isle in the middle of the ocean, with your current priority being saving your family from a dragon.

"A Pact Certain contains language in which the mortal explicitely affirms allegiance to a Lord of Hell and promises to walk the paths of law and evil in exchange for whatever benefits are offered. Mortals signing such pacts immediately switch alignment to lawful evil... The mere act of consciously assigning one's soul to a lord of Hell is, by the terms of the Pact Primeval, an irredeemably and intrinsically evil act" (FCII).That word you used there, irredeemably, is going to upset a lot of proponents of projecting real world morality on D&D worlds, since they claim that no one is ever irredeemable. Citing a source which contradicts that cherished principle has got to annoy them. Thanks! :smalltongue::smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Questions V needs to ask:

Is my family already dead? His only reason to take this bargain is that he is desperate to save his family. He and the imp spoke for at least a round or two before the time stop was in place, and the dragon was teleporting directly to his family.

Aside from this specific question, he needs to ask about the terms of use for his soul, once it's time to pay up. This is fair, as V can define a specific use for the souls he is getting the use of, something like "To destroy the ABD before it kills my family", and it's fair to ask for similar defined uses for his own soul/

Darkhands
2009-02-23, 12:43 PM
Here's the horribly wrong part as I see it.

Any DnD powergamer would know that a properly played wizard or cleric is an insanely powerful force that can single-handedly slay dukes of hell. Dare I say Leadership + Cooperative Magic + Circle Magic + Consumptive Field + (Planar Binding/Dominate Monster = Dominated Wish-giving Efreeti = various items and artifacts obtainable through free Wishes) + Gate = Archfiends dragged crying like sissies from wherever they're hiding and subjected to crazy-high DC spells. And that's BEFORE reaching epic levels.

FOUR wizards in a Gestalt character, three of them Epic - that's more powerful than ANY creature in the DnD gamebooks/monster manuals, including Asmodeus as presented in FCII. Only Gods have a chance of stopping something like that.

I'd say gameplay wise, V would have the power to kill or at least evade the three "archfiends", even if they're Asmodeus, Demogorgon and whatever-yugoloth themselves.

But that would not stop the horribly wrong from happening. Bear with me here.

The fiends are obviously not much interested in V's soul per se. By itself it's not something three Archfiends would be personally bothered with (unless we buy into the IFCC "cooperation" being their only concern, which goes against both their nature and the previous plot exposition). Their target is the Snarl and - consequently - controlling the Uber-Gestalt V in the right place at the right time to properly affect the situation in the benefit of Evil.

This control can't really be done through the soul - as per term of the Faustian Pact (FCII), the fiends get their hands on it only after V's death.

Also, by the letter of the deal, the fiends can't get control of the Uber-Gestalt creature through the three epic evildoers defeating V's ego. Of course, the epic spellcasters' mental stats are certainly much higher than V's - but once V loses control, the splice ends as per contract.

However.

"A Pact Certain contains language in which the mortal explicitely affirms allegiance to a Lord of Hell and promises to walk the paths of law and evil in exchange for whatever benefits are offered. Mortals signing such pacts immediately switch alignment to lawful evil... The mere act of consciously assigning one's soul to a lord of Hell is, by the terms of the Pact Primeval, an irredeemably and intrinsically evil act" (FCII).

Even though the contract does not provide for "walking the path of law and evil", it does assign V's soul to a lord of Hell. Whether it is for an hour or for eternity is irrelevant - the act itself is enough. Moreover, the act is irredeemable, i.e. cannot be nullified by subsequent atonement. So, unless the entire ABD situation was caused by the fiends ("duress clause"), by entering the bargain V condemns his soul to Hell for eternity and becomes lawful evil.

And here we come to the REAL danger - the Uber-Gestalt in service of an evil character.

THAT would be horribly wrong. It would entirely upset the balance of the OOTS world, and - with access to the Snarl gates - would also give Evil an unstoppable doomsday device.

So, even if the fiends would not have direct control of V, they WOULD have an evil-aligned powerhouse in control of the Snarl gates.

What beats me, though, is why didnt the fiends just Dominate V, or - better - Control Undead on Xykon, or - still better - resurrect the three evil wizards and task them with what needs to be done. For that matter, why not resurrect ALL major evildoers. That would be some tipping of balance, especially in this particular Snarl-sensitive moment of time.

P.S. - As to the Time Stop being a lie, V probably has already made a Spellcraft check to recognise it as valid, or at least something too powerful for him to discern (DC 29 for regular Time Stop, at 14th lvl he has a min of 17 ranks in the skill), otherwise he would've dismissed the entire ordeal much like he dismissed Quarr. -

That's it for today, I suppose. Mr Burlew, Kudos for the great comic.

Quite possible, but all of that can easily be cut down by Occam's Razor... Perhaps the three really are trying to work together to form a more powerful union. Having control of V near the Snarl would be a huge part of that, and bolster their power and their union considerably.

The whole IFCC idea is a brilliant plot device in and of itself, it would be a terrible shame to throw it away because they were lying about it.

Mr. Pin
2009-02-23, 01:07 PM
At this point, Vaarsuvius really has to take the deal. She is smart enough to know that she is going to be screwed, but if she does not take the deal, her mate and kids will be tortured to death. As a lawful good character, the only morally acceptable path is the one that has some chance of success, because her conscience simply will not allow her to let children die when there is any chance of a better outcome. Even the very real threat of a fiendpocalypse will not allow her to contemplate letting innocents perish.

HandofShadows
2009-02-23, 01:30 PM
At this point, Vaarsuvius really has to take the deal. She is smart enough to know that she is going to be screwed, but if she does not take the deal, her mate and kids will be tortured to death. As a lawful good character, the only morally acceptable path is the one that has some chance of success, because her conscience simply will not allow her to let children die when there is any chance of a better outcome. Even the very real threat of a fiendpocalypse will not allow her to contemplate letting innocents perish.

I don't think V's alignment has ever been specified. There is some evidence that V may be a neutral (with good tendincies?). But that does not change your logic though. V looks to ready to do most anything to save Vis family.

snafu
2009-02-23, 01:48 PM
They are getting back three times the "soul-hours", and they have not limited this use in any way. The bargain may look fair to some, but it is not at all.

No, they're getting exactly the same. They're lending V three souls for n hours, and in return they want the use of one soul for 3n hours. That's 3n soul-hours on each side of the deal.

Undead Prince
2009-02-23, 01:53 PM
At this point, Vaarsuvius ... a lawful good character

NOT. It says so RIGHT in THIS strip. If V's entire development up to this point was not clue enough.


the only morally acceptable path is the one that has some chance of success, because her conscience simply will not allow her to let children die when there is any chance of a better outcome. Even the very real threat of a fiendpocalypse will not allow her to contemplate letting innocents perish.

Now there's an interesting point, though not really important for V's current alignment. But for a lawful good paladin, for instance, it would have been a curious dilemma. Let innocents perish through inaction (not take pact, doom kids, avoid fiendpocalypse) or let innocents perish through action (take pact, save kids, help fiendpocalypse). In fact, BOTH choices are Evil - as in, the end justifies the means, "small sacrifice for greater good". What an LG paladin would have to do is not take pact and do everything in their power to save kids by other means.

Needlessly reiterating the point, V is a far cry from LG. On a steady road to E by now.


But it's hard to bring your power to bear on the fiends if you lose control of the gestalt after killing only one of them, or whatever.

There are many ways of rendering creatures powerless without actually killing (should need arise) available even to non-epic characters. Epic spellcasters can devise even more powerful means to do that.


Besides, don't you have to kill them on their own plane to kill them permanently? And that would involve three different planes, yes? Sounds time consuming, starting from the standpoint of being on a deserted isle in the middle of the ocean, with your current priority being saving your family from a dragon.

Teleport + Momento Mori (or any other high-DC killer/transmuter/dominator) = 1 dead ABD. Gate = instant access to any of the fiends in question, on whatever plane they are.

But point is, V doesn't even need to kill the fiends. All he needs is hold on to the splice long enough to become epic level himself. If we knew the actual mechanics of that thing, we'd know how to subvert it to one's own command.


Either way, there's gonna be one hell of a fight scene when V does catch up with the dragon...

Please. Ancient black dragon is not even an epic monster.

On scale of what we've seen in OOTS world by this point, V is really getting ultimate arcane power. None of the known characters will be any match for him - unless they're played really smart, by which I mean powergamey, which seemingly is anathema in OOTS.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-02-23, 01:55 PM
I don't think V's alignment has ever been specified. There is some evidence that V may be a neutral (with good tendincies?). But that does not change your logic though. V looks to ready to do most anything to save Vis family.We did just get a clue:
Fiend 1 "We offer a trade of one good for one service."
Fiend 2 "Obviously. You have the good. Or the neutral, as the case may be."

Italics mine.

V does look to be willing to do almost anything to save his family. Otherwise he wouldn't have broached the subject of a Faustian bargain in the first place. But V still does not know that his family is alive and able to be saved. It'd be a real shame to sign up for such a bargain, damning yourself in an effort to do some good for those you love, only to find that you couldn't save them anyway.

malakim2099
2009-02-23, 02:04 PM
Hmmmm. Time for posters to try to rip this deal apart and see in what ways it horribly screws V over, methinks. :smallwink:

Personally I'll start with:

So the IFCC gets to control V's soul for a length of time some time in the future. Yeah, can't see that coming back to bite V in the ass. :smallamused:

After all, what happens when V and the gang get close to another gate? I would think that the IFCC would absolutely love to have a person under their direct control should the Order ever get near another gate

Especially if Sabine and Nale are around to provide backup.

Can't say I see this ending well at all for V. Not at all.:smalleek:

That's about what I'm thinking as well...

We know that these Three are very interested in the Gates, from what Sabine has been told (as she works for them as well).

We know from Start of Darkness that Redcloak intends for the Gate control to shift into the Celestial Plane to blackmail the other gods into giving goblinoids a fair shake.

I'm starting to see a scenario in play where V is forced to work with Redcloak to move the gate to the Celestial Plane... and then open it at the bidding of the IFCC.

Think about it. Why get armies all gathered up to kill off the goody goody good outsiders, when you have a Snarl all geared up to do it FOR YOU.

Just my thoughts on the matter anyway. This could be very very bad. :smallamused:

Porthos
2009-02-23, 02:08 PM
To All People Who Think This Is A "Fair" Deal:

I would simply paraphrase (the now sadly departed) Robert Asprin.

If you think you've gotten a good deal from a Devil, first count your fingers, then your limbs, then your relatives. Then ask yourself, ARE YOU SURE YOU GOT A GOOD DEAL? :smallwink:

Trebuchet
2009-02-23, 02:27 PM
I'm surprised the presentation isn't on PowerPoint slides.

Vaarsuvius would never take the deal if it were so obviously evil!

kingofthemorning
2009-02-23, 02:27 PM
Whoo, this story arc is so epic I'm posting for the first time in a year or more, keep it up.

My guess here is that V will take the deal, and when she teleports she is too late to save her family and then uses her new found power to go on a revenge provoked rampage for an elongated period of time. That extended period of time is taken advantage of by the fiends to vy for control of the gates.

Question: Can V kill everyone else in the comic without her soon-too-be-new-found-powers?

BillyJimBoBob
2009-02-23, 02:36 PM
No, they're getting exactly the same. They're lending V three souls for n hours, and in return they want the use of one soul for 3n hours. That's 3n soul-hours on each side of the deal.You are correct. Sorta. I was thrown by the term "soul-hours", and was just focusing on the time alone. The math is equivalent, but the time is not. V gets any number of souls to use for X time. Then the Fiends get V to use for 3X time, or SoulsX time, where Souls is the number of spliced souls.

And, I don't believe this has been mentioned before: V doesn't need more than one of the Fiend's caster souls to be spliced with his own. Any single epic level caster is more than a match for the ABD. Take the Sorcerer and call it a day, if you take any of them.

Raenir Salazar
2009-02-23, 02:42 PM
V without his gestaltness? probably if he were careful and dint have to fight through Hordes of Mooks and Red shirts wasting his spells.

Xykon and Redclock? Probably not, if he were level 17 he would have a chance.

Sir_Norbert
2009-02-23, 02:43 PM
Well! Great stuff, really interesting plot and character development...

but Fruit Pie the Sorceror almighty, those colour-on-black text bubbles are so annoying!!!!!

Zanaril
2009-02-23, 02:57 PM
You are correct. Sorta. I was thrown by the term "soul-hours", and was just focusing on the time alone. The math is equivalent, but the time is not. V gets any number of souls to use for X time. Then the Fiends get V to use for 3X time, or SoulsX time, where Souls is the number of spliced souls.

And, I don't believe this has been mentioned before: V doesn't need more than one of the Fiend's caster souls to be spliced with his own. Any single epic level caster is more than a match for the ABD. Take the Sorcerer and call it a day, if you take any of them.

Except splicing all of them at the same time is the point of the experiment the Fiends are undertaking. They won't let hir just use one of them.

Undead Prince
2009-02-23, 03:06 PM
V without his gestaltness? probably if he were careful and dint have to fight through Hordes of Mooks and Red shirts wasting his spells.

No need to fight through mooks when you have divinations, enchantments and illusions.


Xykon and Redclock? Probably not, if he were level 17 he would have a chance.

Even given the fact that V was STUPID enough to ban Conjuration AND Necromancy (the most useful school ever, IMHO), all he needs is some Wizard/Sorcerer followers (either through the Leadership feat or the Charm/Dominate Person spells) and the Cooperative Spell feat. With Cooperative Spell he can crank up the DCs on his Enchantments to Dominate a few powerful wizards/clerics, which would give him all the needed flexibility to defeat Xykon (who is after all just a sorcerer with a penchant for pathetic Evocation). I'm not even talking about Redcloak - the most this purportedly 17th level Cleric (an extraordinarily powerful char even by DnD standards, if only he had the brains of taking some prestige classes from CDivine and alternative class features from PHB2) has done to my memory is cast Destruction and summon elementals. He'd be a pushover.

Hell, why take V. A FIRST-LEVEL CHARACTER properly played and given a few days could rule this world. And I'm not talking Pun-Pun style mechanic abuse - just straight old powergaming.

Athaniar
2009-02-23, 03:14 PM
Concerning people who think daemons/yugoloths died with 2E: they did feature in 3.5E Monster Manuals, and were incorporated into 4E as NE-behaving demons.

DaveMcW
2009-02-23, 03:23 PM
How the fiends will use V's soul:

The soul bind will not end when V loses control.
The strongest-willed evil spellcaster will take over instead. (Exact order of custody to be determined at a later point.)
The fiends have agreed to rent the souls to each other.
By the time V gets back control of his body, he will be the most-wanted criminal in the world.

Porthos
2009-02-23, 03:30 PM
Hell, why take V. A FIRST-LEVEL CHARACTER properly played and given a few days could rule this world. And I'm not talking Pun-Pun style mechanic abuse - just straight old powergaming.

I don't think you are quite grasping Rich's philosphy when it comes to gaming. :smalltongue: Reading through his articles he's written, it's obvious to me that he favors the "stats decribe a person" playstyle rather than a "person is defined by their stats".

That's how you can have a fighter with an 18 int. It's because a person who was very very intellegent decided he wanted to be a fighter. It's how you can have people who are evil cooperating with each other (i.e. because they're friends). And, yes, it's how you can have Blaster Casters running around as opposed to a mage deciding to be a Batman.

In other words, there ain't no such thing as "properly played" when you are describing real people and real situations. Sure a powergamer could come in and kick patootie in this world (though I think you exaggerate greatly about a 1st level character). So what? I think this strip stopped worrying about powergaming a long long time ago, if it ever cared about it at all.

And thank the gods for that, BTW. It never hurts to have a reminder (or twenty) that powergaming isn't essential to have a good game/story/session of DnD.

Raenir Salazar
2009-02-23, 03:31 PM
No need to fight through mooks when you have divinations, enchantments and illusions.



Even given the fact that V was STUPID enough to ban Conjuration AND Necromancy (the most useful school ever, IMHO), all he needs is some Wizard/Sorcerer followers (either through the Leadership feat or the Charm/Dominate Person spells) and the Cooperative Spell feat. With Cooperative Spell he can crank up the DCs on his Enchantments to Dominate a few powerful wizards/clerics, which would give him all the needed flexibility to defeat Xykon (who is after all just a sorcerer with a penchant for pathetic Evocation). I'm not even talking about Redcloak - the most this purportedly 17th level Cleric (an extraordinarily powerful char even by DnD standards, if only he had the brains of taking some prestige classes from CDivine and alternative class features from PHB2) has done to my memory is cast Destruction and summon elementals. He'd be a pushover.

Hell, why take V. A FIRST-LEVEL CHARACTER properly played and given a few days could rule this world. And I'm not talking Pun-Pun style mechanic abuse - just straight old powergaming.

Woah woah, you must tell me how this is done, it sounds like a crowning moment of awesome simply to read.

Porthos
2009-02-23, 03:51 PM
Woah woah, you must tell me how this is done,

He can't. :smalltongue: That's because it would probably require one of those silly "passive DMs that allow all things from all supplements, and allow all items to be availiable to everyone who can buy them while giving the greatest amount of latitutide in rules interpetations to the PCs" situations that got the Pun Pun bandwagon started in the first place.

Oh I'm sure if he wanted to he could try to cook up some rules kludge. But it doesn't neccessarily mean that it would work. After all, it's fairly obvious that the world of OotS is heavily homebrewed. So there's no guarantee that the Power Combos out there would actually work.


it sounds like a crowning moment of awesome simply to read.

Meh. Once you've read the story of Pun Pun, and it is a very good read, all other powergaming builds just lack pizzazz. :smalltongue:

Undead Prince
2009-02-23, 04:04 PM
How the fiends will use V's soul:

The soul bind will not end when V loses control.
The strongest-willed evil spellcaster will take over instead. (Exact order of custody to be determined at a later point.)


Haven't we already been over this? The contract EXPLICITELY states that the gestalt, or "splice", lasts only as long as V's able to "hold on to it", and that V has "complete control of the other three".


That's how you can have a fighter with an 18 int. It's because a person who was very very intellegent decided he wanted to be a fighter.

A person who was very very intelligent would never want to be a fighter in the DnD universe. That's an insult to their intelligence (and the player's).

Sure, a fighter can have moderate intelligence (which is what we have with Roy, BTW). In fact, just recently I've had a Fighter 4/Bard 1/Red Dragon Disciple 10/Frenzied Berserker 5 in a Neverwinter Nights:SoZ game, and he had 16 int (started with 14, +2 from RDD) which proved useful both for feat requirements and for skill points (that game's very skill intensive).

But I'd never play such a char as my own in a tabletop session. He's simply a bug compared to similar-level wizards and clerics. And of course, if a character has 18 int (better start with 20, though) he'd obviously choose to walk the path of prepared arcane magic. You know, just so he won't be crushed by every opposite-alignment counterpart he happens to walk by.


It's how you can have people who are evil cooperating with each other (i.e. because they're friends).

1) Most major villains are not cooperating out of friendship in OOTS; in fact the greatest of them (Xykon/Redcloak, not counting fiends) are obviously being set up for a Turncoat moment.

2) Nothing DICTATES an Evil-aligned character to constantly betray his comrades. In fact, a major part of Lawful Evil is fanatical devotion to the cause and unquestioning obedience to superiors.


And, yes, it's how you can have Blaster Casters running around as opposed to a mage deciding to be a Batman.

Frankly, the Batman Wizard concept in my books is not much higher than Blaster Sorc. It fails on a fundamental level - it attempts to respond to the threat rather than be the threat. I.e. his bag of tricks is there to cover a wide range of possible obstacles Fate might throw in his path. I prefer to play my characters so that they take Fate by the throat and make it do their bidding.


I think this strip stopped worrying about powergaming a long long time ago, if it ever cared about it at all.

Hey, I didn't bring this point up, I just responded to the challenge. I'm the first to say that with proper powergaming DnD becomes very extreme, and a difficult ground for any "ordinary" fantasy story. Let's say you have a regular detective novel, but characters are suddenly given Matrix-style powers. You need to be Wachowski to pull through and make a good story out of it; a regular writer would be boggled and out of his depth.

I'm not criticizing the comic in any way, it's great the way it is. We just have to make the concession that it's "DnD Light", or "DnD for casual gamers". Like computer RPGs, which physically cannot reflect the wide range of tabletop options (although even in CRPGs characters tend to be way more optimised than in this comic, but I'll shut up now).

Liriel
2009-02-23, 04:16 PM
Well! Great stuff, really interesting plot and character development...

but Fruit Pie the Sorceror almighty, those colour-on-black text bubbles are so annoying!!!!!

They are. Sad. I've taken to tag-team reading them. As a team we can figure the entire text out. :smallbiggrin:

It wasn't difficult to read them when Sabine was talking to them...art change?

Porthos
2009-02-23, 04:18 PM
A person who was very very intelligent would never want to be a fighter in the DnD universe. That's an insult to their intelligence (and the player's).

I'm going to ignore absolutely everything else you posted (even though I have opinions on it :smallwink:) and focus on this point.

Says. Who?

No seriously. Says. Who?

I see no earthly reason why a person with an 18 INT can't decide to become a fighter. After all, not every 7 foot person with athletic skills becomes a basketball player. Not every person who is exceptionally smart goes on to become a college professor. Heck, there are Ivy League Grads (insert equivalent for your country HERE) playing in violent contact sports.

Sometimes, believe it or not, people go into situations where they aren't using all of their natural abilities as "efficiently" as they could.

Why?

Cause not everyone worships at the altar of optimization, that's why. :smalltongue:

Look, I'm not against character optimization. If that's your thing, and it's what makes you happy, go for it. But just as there is the Stormwind Fallacy, so to is the reverse. That is one doesn't need to powergame to be successful/have fun/be a good roleplayer in DnD.

Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

So, yes, I can see a person with an 18 INT, like Roy, with the appropriate backstory deciding to become a pure fighter. Stranger things have happened in real life after all. :smallsmile:

PS: The thing about evil people cooperating that I mentioned was a direct reference to to this article by Rich about emotions and their place in games. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html) There's a lot of good things in the Gaming Article section, actually. I find that reading through those articles helps explain where Rich is coming from and why a lot of his characters act the way they do.

Well worth the read, IMO. :smallsmile:

Mr. Pin
2009-02-23, 04:39 PM
Does anyone think that V will take advantage of her epic powerup to kill Xykon and Company and save the gates? with that kind of power, it'd be a piece of cake if she could hold onto it for long enough. The real question is whether she wants to or not, and to a smart individual like Vaarsuvius, saving the Universe would be a priority, even if it came after the whole family saving thing.

Morgan Wick
2009-02-23, 04:42 PM
So it looks like it'll be #634 when we get the Four Words if we get them now at all. Perhaps we'll get V's Good Angel and Bad Angel as a lead-up (properly subverted, of course, and probably referencing the forums' not being convinced saving his/her family are the "wrong reasons").

Do you think V might give a heads-up to the rest of the OOTS about his/her conundrum, if he/she takes the offer and later fears the potential ways it could bite him/her in the ass, or will he/she be so convinced he/she can deal with it him/herself it could prove her undoing? This comic could keep getting richer and richer... no pun intended...

SoD


Redcloak? How's that "we can use Xykon" thing working out for you?
Pretty well, actually (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html), even if he has had to kill his brother.


Honestly, I can't wait to see V say 5 words, just to mess with the forum goers.:smallamused:
Naturally, the forums will be full of people claiming you can't say 5 words without saying 4...

Is there a typo in the page title? Shouldn't it be "you"?

gamephil
2009-02-23, 04:43 PM
[QUOTE=Undead Prince;5810429]NOT. It says so RIGHT in THIS strip. If V's entire development up to this point was not clue enough./QUOTE]

It does not say that. It says, "Or neutral, as the case may be." In other words, whichever V happens to be, good or neutral. If it had been meant to be clear, it would have been more like, "Or neutral, in your case, I suppose." The phrasing was poking fun at the debate, not settling it.

As for V's entire development, it doesn't appear to have any more proof that V is Neutral to me than Roy's development, other than his alignment is clearly stated several times. Both have done a number of less-than-good things, and V went along with the group to save Elan when Roy did not, yada yada yada. I suggest that whether V is good or neutral, or even evil, is in the eye of the beholder, much like V's gender, and unlikely to be verified unless the deal is struck and makes V evil, making the point irrelevant.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-02-23, 04:49 PM
It never hurts to have a reminder (or twenty) that powergaming isn't essential to have a good game/story/session of DnD.Preach it, Brother Porthos! Can I get an "Amen!"?

Haven't we already been over this? The contract EXPLICITELY states that the gestalt, or "splice", lasts only as long as V's able to "hold on to it", and that V has "complete control of the other three".We've been over what? You've quoted some portions of the Fiend's promises/terms, yes. But how does that invalidate DaveMcW's speculations in any way? Even assuming that a team of one CE, one NE, and one LE Fiend have a requirement to not lie (even a LE can lie, you know), we haven't been told what happens after V eventually fails to "hold on to it." At that point, there have been no promises, and no descriptions. So V could very well be dominated by one or more of the three epic level souls grafted to his own. They could very well remain, even after V has failed to "hold on."

[...] proper powergaming [...]
I do not believe that those two words, when strung together like that, mean what you think they mean.

David Argall
2009-02-23, 05:58 PM
my prediction is that V manages to surprise the Fiends and takes complete and total control of the situation.
Absolutely not. Doing so just cuts off a promising story line. As a practical matter, it is unlikely it is even possible. The fiends likely can end V's power at their whim. But the overwhelming factor is simply that it is dull. V wins, game over, story over.
V can win the current battle, but must fact major drawbacks as a result in the future. Just what these will be is pretty much a guess, but V is not going to get a fantastic victory here.

pseudovere
2009-02-23, 06:14 PM
There is potentially a gigantic loophole in the contract if the fiends can grant V splices whenever V ask's for one, mainly in the fact that there is no rule saying that the splicing and control over V's soul cannot be served concurrently.

Lets imagine V splices for 1 round, owing 3 rounds of control over h** soul.

The fiends make V ask for a splice while (s)he is under their control, and have h** maintain that splice for 1 round, leaving them with 2 rounds of control from the previous debt, but adding 3 more, raising the rounds V owes the fiends up to 5.

This process may be repeated an infinite amount of times.

Loophole are fun, aren't they? Except without the fun.

tigerhawkvok
2009-02-23, 06:18 PM
Typo in the title:

"633 Where Do Yo See Yourself in Five Million Years?"

Should be

"633 Where Do You See Yourself in Five Million Years?"

Excellent comic, Giant!

<edit>Sigh, ninja'd. On like page 6. Serves me right for only checking the first four pages ... </edit>

Prak
2009-02-23, 06:20 PM
And soon, Lee, Nero and Cedric will appear and offer to splice his soul with that of Dante, Shakespeare and TolkienAlan Moore for Complete and Total Unlimited Storytelling Power!!

Don't do it Giant! :smalleek:
fixed that for you.


So, Those Three Guys In Red Cloaks want his soul for an hour?
What can you do with a soul in an hour?
And what is a daemon?
And why is YellowMan's cloak around him, it doesn't fit.
And why Jephton the Unhaly doesn't need to prepare spell slots?
Ok, this has reached a head and it's breaking the camels frakking back now.... Can people please get a grounding in D&D before they read this comic? Please? I'm asking nicely here...


I'm starting to see a scenario in play where V is forced to work with Redcloak to move the gate to the Celestial Plane...
again, it's possession of V's soul after death, not control of V anytime they want.


If you think you've gotten a good deal from a Devil, first count your fingers, then your limbs, then your relatives. Then ask yourself, ARE YOU SURE YOU GOT A GOOD DEAL?
Fingers... V's still got them all
Limbs... check
relatives... well if shi doesn't take the deal shi's going to be three short...
Yep, pretty sure shi's getting a good deal here.


The soul bind will not end when V loses control.
The strongest-willed evil spellcaster will take over instead. (Exact order of custody to be determined at a later point.)
The fiends have agreed to rent the souls to each other.
By the time V gets back control of his body, he will be the most-wanted criminal in the world.
that doesn't follow what they're getting. They each get hir soul in their dominion for an amount of time equal to the amount of time shi held the splice for. So if shi holds the splice for a day she then spends one day in Hell, one day in the Abyss and one day on, probably, Carceri. The best they could do to use hir soul would be as a gopher or some such, ie, doing stuff for them within the plane.

Porthos
2009-02-23, 06:47 PM
again, it's possession of V's soul after death, not control of V anytime they want.

Can you tell me where exactly it is said that the IFCC has to wait until V is dead before they can control his soul? Thanks in advance and all that.



Fingers... V's still got them all
Limbs... check
relatives... well if shi doesn't take the deal shi's going to be three short...
Yep, pretty sure shi's getting a good deal here.

Let's not be so literal. :smalltongue: The whole point of the saying is to drive home the point that one NEVER gets a good deal from a Deveel. Or devil, as the case may be. The only reason that the fiends ever get anyone to take one of their infamous deals is that the sucker person in question thinks to themselves: This time it will be different. I'm going to be the clever person who out smarts the fiends.

Really, it won't be and you won't be.

Why? Because for every fiddler who was in fact able to thwart the devil, there are millions of people who are wondering why their violin bow snapped halfway through their musical piece. Sure there's a chance that you can do it. And that very fact that people think that they have that chance is what the IFCC (and all of the similar outfits that are out there) are banking on. :smallamused:

Prak
2009-02-23, 07:15 PM
Can you tell me where exactly it is said that the IFCC has to wait until V is dead before they can control his soul? Thanks in advance and all that.
first, once again, it's not control, merely possession. second, that's the way it works.



Let's not be so literal. :smalltongue: The whole point of the saying is to drive home the point that one NEVER gets a good deal from a Deveel. Or devil, as the case may be. The only reason that the fiends ever get anyone to take one of their infamous deals is that the sucker person in question thinks to themselves: This time it will be different. I'm going to be the clever person who out smarts the fiends.

Really, it won't be and you won't be.

Why? Because for every fiddler who was in fact able to thwart the devil, there are millions of people who are wondering why their violin bow snapped halfway through their musical piece. Sure there's a chance that you can do it. And that very fact that people think that they have that chance is what the IFCC (and all of the similar outfits that are out there) are banking on. :smallamused:

you know the secret to getting a good deal from the devil? Be satanic. Really, that's how Johnny beat him, by indulging in his pride.

Porthos
2009-02-23, 07:24 PM
first, once again, it's not control, merely possession. second, that's the way it works.

Well, if you want to make that assumption, go right ahead. Me? I like to make sure that we don't deal with with the whole concept of "lie by ommission" ahead of time, thank yew veddy much.

The simple fact of the matter is that in DnD it is well known that there are spells/abilities that can take over people's souls. And when a Planar Being is saying that "each of us will get your soul for the same amount of time you are under the effects of the Soul Splice", my alarm bells go off in a major way.

Or have you never heard of spells like Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicjar.htm)? :smalltongue:


you know the secret to getting a good deal from the devil? Be satanic. Really, that's how Johnny beat him, by indulging in his pride.

Yeah. You first. :smalltongue:

Seriously though the whole "appeal to the devil's pride" thing doesn't always work. Not in folklore and not in modern day storytelling. Sometimes? Sure. But just as often, not.

Beren
2009-02-23, 07:42 PM
I think that if V accepts the deal, here's what will happen:

He/she will teleport to the dragon, only to find out that somehow the elf villagers managed to defeat her on their own. Frustrated, V will then decide that at least he/she can use his/her power to find Haley, but when he/she gets there, he/she will find that Durkon and Elan will already be there, and Roy will already be resurrected. At that point, V will lose the willpower to hold on to the soul splice, having gained virtually nothing in the deal.

Prak
2009-02-23, 07:44 PM
Well, if you want to make that assumption, go right ahead. Me? I like to make sure that we don't deal with with the whole concept of "lie by ommission" ahead of time, thank yew veddy much.

The simple fact of the matter is that in DnD it is well known that there are spells/abilities that can take over people's souls. And when a Planar Being is saying that "each of us will get your soul for the same amount of time you are under the effects of the Soul Splice", my alarm bells go off in a major way.

Or have you never heard of spells like Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicjar.htm)? :smalltongue:
Ok, I was going to quote from the comic, but apparently I misread.




Yeah. You first. :smalltongue:

Seriously though the whole "appeal to the devil's pride" thing doesn't always work. Not in folklore and not in modern day storytelling. Sometimes? Sure. But just as often, not.
not the devil's pride, your own, or did you miss that part of the fiddle contest?

snafu
2009-02-23, 07:59 PM
you know the secret to getting a good deal from the devil? Be satanic. Really, that's how Johnny beat him, by indulging in his pride.

As I recall the story, the Devil first approached Johnny and made his pitch in person; it was something of a seller's market in souls at the time so the Devil was reduced to cold-calling in this way and was prepared to make an agreement on more favourable terms than usual. Knowing that Johnny prided himself on his fiddle playing, he made his challenge on that basis; if anything, the Devil was playing on Johnny's pride here.

The only reason the Devil went home without Johnny's soul was because Johnny actually was the best there'd ever been, and won the contest.

Implausible? Maybe. Perhaps some divine angelic choir might defeat the Devil at musicianship - but those who are but men?

(Now because of all this I've got to go and fish out Guitar Hero 3. And just when my fingers had nearly healed from World Tour too. I hope you're all satisfied.)

Porthos
2009-02-23, 08:00 PM
Ok, I was going to quote from the comic, but apparently I misread.

Well, I can see how it could happen.

V: And for this you would have eternal dominiation over my immortal soul once I died?
Fiend #1: What? No! No, no, no.
Fiend #2: How would that be fair?
Fiend #3: No, all we ask for is an even trade.
Fiend #1: Each of us will get your soul for the same amount of time you are under the effects of the Soul Splice
Fiend #2: So, maintan all three splices for an hour, your soul spends an hour with me, then one hour with my two associates.
Fiend #3: Exact order of custody determined at a later point.

So while one could infer that the Fiends would have to wait until V died (since that was the topic he was talking about), it certainly isn't iron clad. Especially when the concept of lying by ommission is factored in.

And we all know how much fiends love the concept of lying by ommission. :smallwink:

not the devil's pride, your own, or did you miss that part of the fiddle contest?

Actually, misremembered. But my point still stands. Sometimes it does work (Devil Goes Down to Georgia) and sometimes it doesn't (too many fables to mention).

So, again. You first. :smalltongue:

Prak
2009-02-23, 08:09 PM
Well, I can see how it could happen.

V: And for this you would have eternal dominiation over my immortal soul once I died?
Fiend #1: What? No! No, no, no.
Fiend #2: How would that be fair?
Fiend #3: No, all we ask for is an even trade.
Fiend #1: Each of us will get your soul for the same amount of time you are under the effects of the Soul Splice
Fiend #2: So, maintan all three splices for an hour, your soul spends an hour with me, then one hour with my two associates.
Fiend #3: Exact order of custody determined at a later point.

So while one could infer that the Fiends would have to wait until V died (since that was the topic he was talking about), it certainly isn't iron clad. Especially when the concept of lying by ommission is factored in.

And we all know how much fiends love the concept of lying by ommission. :smallwink:
I still say they won't randomly take control of him, but there's no way to be sure one way or the other.



Actually, misremembered. But my point still stands. Sometimes it does work (Devil Goes Down to Georgia) and sometimes it doesn't (too many fables to mention).

So, again. You first. :smalltongue:
I would but if the Devil exists, he's already got my soul... and I don't get anything for it, well, except a hell of a good time while alive.

Porthos
2009-02-23, 08:18 PM
I still say they won't randomly take control of him, but there's no way to be sure one way or the other.

On this, I agree. It won't be random. :smalltongue:

I think a great many of us suspect when it might happen (if it does) and have said as much behind spoiler tags.

Now we could all be barking up the wrong tree. Who knows? But the fact that we've seen these particular fiends in the comic before is a rather large clue as to their ultimate intentions, as far as I am concerned. :smallsmile:

Silverraptor
2009-02-23, 08:18 PM
After reading the seven pages and comparing it to the comic I've found quite a few things.

1st: Practcally eveyone of you have said that this deal has a "catch". Mostly because a) they're evil so they can't be trusted and b) politics are never what they seem. But put it this way, politics is the only reason I would consider accepting this deal. These are 3 different archdemons we're dealing with here. A Demon; A Daemon; and A Devil. Each one of them have their own intrests at heart. As I recall in the DMG, each of these factions are at odds and ends with each other, constantly raging wars with each other over petty things. Now, to stop these wars, the 3 sides decide to sit down and create the IFCC. Now, if the 1 of these 3 archdemons keep V's soul longer then the other 2, the 3 sides would almost instantly go back to fighting. If V's soul is kept for eternity, how will the others benefit? How do you perfectly divide eternity into 3 ways? Also, Roy will most likely be rezed by the time they take over V's soul.

2nd:V will probably make sure they will come to collect his soul when he dies. But I'm sure V will word it that he has to until he "dies" naturally. This way V can avoid this scenario:
"Hello, we've come to make good on your soul."
"But I'm not dead yet."
"No, not yet"
Even if they did this, it would probably help save the world. They would probably wait until Xykon is close to getting to the gate. Then they would go "Oh no! Xykon is about to release the snarl before us! Quick! We must use V to stop him so we could open it instead." Thus avoiding Xykon releasing the snarl.

3rd:The final reason for me thinking that this idea might not be as bad as thought of on the forum is the fact that we're talking about "RICH" here. V is just a comic character while Rich is in control. He likes to do things completely out of the ordinary. He already made Hell a buracracy instead of the traditional evil creatures do what they want, what's to stop him from making it a Successful Buracracy?

So don't be so quick into thinking that this deal will bite him in the butt anytime soon.

Logalmier
2009-02-23, 08:40 PM
Creepiest. Comic. Ever. Seriously, that second panel...:smalleek:

I laughed at the ending though.

elonin
2009-02-23, 08:41 PM
Didn't have time to read though all of the comments but guessing that their substance are similiar to pages 1 and 8. I'm doubting that v will be able to make the concentration checks for very long since s/he must have some serious penalties from not having tranced for so long. That said if the offer is accepted I'd imagine V being able to put the smack down on the dragon. Probibly with alot of colateral damage. My next guess is that V would then use the greater power to find the other part of the group.

It would be quite ironic if V ended up finding the group and killing Belkar for making some comment. It would be hilarious if V received the cleric's message just after accepting the deal.

The Minx
2009-02-23, 08:45 PM
Seriously. Don't do it. Tolkien may have been a great story teller, but his writing itself was atrocious. And I think we can all agree OOTS would not be as fun is 95% of the updates were about them walking to the next gate. >.>

<SMITE HERESY> :smallmad:

:smallwink:

Undead Prince
2009-02-23, 08:47 PM
I have a feeling of sliding into off-topic territory, so


He can't. :smalltongue:

Really. How kind of you to assume that.


That's because it would probably require one of those silly "passive DMs that allow all things from all supplements, and allow all items to be availiable to everyone who can buy them while giving the greatest amount of latitutide in rules interpetations to the PCs" situations that got the Pun Pun bandwagon started in the first place.

I try to play strictly by the Rules-as-Intended, without Godly abilities through loophole exploitation. And banning particular books/items is very often a sign of weak players who just want to strip other players of legitimate options.

"All supplements". No. But I don't intend to limit myself to PHB either - and neither does the comic (e.g. we have Swashbuckler who's not in the core rulebooks).

I'm going to play a Cleric, so I'll want Complete Divine.
A Necromancy oriented one, so Libris Mortis + Complete Mage + Heroes of Horror (latter is optional, though).
A champion of his deity, so Complete Champion.
In Faerun, so FR Campaign Setting/PGtF (updated for 3.5).
Spell Compendium, Item Compendium go without question.
Basically, that's it for the special rulebooks.

"All items". No. The rare items I obtain by far surer means than ransacking the local shops.


you must tell me how this is done

Well, the idea here is that you start as a 1st level character, and following the rules in a few days become someone who can kick everyone’s ass. NOT Pun-Pun style, i.e. blatantly abusing the mechanics, but rather adhering to Rules-as-Intended. So it will have a bit of grinding for the first few days. But then it's rocketing up on a very fast curve.

Here’s a relatively simple build I’m toying with at the moment. It has a not-unheard of concept in the beginning, but later branches into something more interesting.

Step 1: The Efreeti Gambit

Start as 1st lvl cleric of Tharizdun. For race, can pick something relatively simple like Aasimar, or something else with +Wis (in this example I’ll have Aasimar w/20 WIS and 16 CHA). For feats, pick Heighten Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Heighten for a Flaw if Flaws are allowed. For domains, pick Domination and Fire.

1. Level 1. Kill a CR 9 creature to reach 2nd lvl (more if you have LA). This can be done relatively simply by Command:Approach the target creature (with Divine Metamagic: Heighten it will reliably work on tough but stupid creatures like Ogres) right into a deep pit where it can be killed with crossbow and impunity. Or some other trap of your liking.

2. Level 2. Command 2 1HD skeletons to do the digging and the killing.

3. Level 3. Take Divine Magician feat if you already have Heighten and Divine Metamagic. Otherwise use Taint from Heroes of Horror to get yourself one extra feat, and get Divine Metamagic and Divine Magician. Pick Ghoul Glyph as your Divine Magician spell for 2nd lvl. This trap spell offers long paralysis with no saving throw and is a killer. Use Command:Approach + Ghoul Glyph. Skeletons use Coup-de-gras with Scythes on paralysed opponents. More xp ensues.

If you don't have Flaws or Taint in your game, you might try using the Domain Substitution spell (2nd lvl Cleric, from Complete Champion) to temporarily get yourself the Hunger domain instead of Fire, and thus obtain the excellent Ghoul Glyph. Hunger, however, is not on Tharizdun's portfolio, so you might have to live without this nice spell. No worries, as it is not critical to the build, merely makes life easier - and you will get Divine Magician later.

4. Level 5. Suggestion + Ghoul Glyph or Wrack. Command Undead + Animate Dead = 25 HD of undead soldiers. At this point you can continue XP harvesting or do a shortcut:

5. Buy a potion of Owl’s Wisdom and a potion of Eagle’s Splendor (300 gp each), pay a Mage capable of Planar Binding (11 lvl Wizard, found in any decent city) 1430 gp to summon an Efreet (Magic Circle against Evil w/diagram, Dimensional Anchor, Planar Binding). By now you should have several times that amount from killing stuff.

6. Cast Prayer (-1 to enemy saves with no save for 5 rounds),

followed by 4 Dooms (DC = 10 +1 spell level +7 Wis (20 Wisdom +4 Owl’s Wisdom) +1 Spell Focus +1 Prayer = 20 vs Will Save +9, i.e. 55% chance of success per each Doom, i.e. at least one of the four will hit and make the Efreet Shaken = -2 to all saves),

followed by Suggestion on Efreet: DC = 10, +2 spell level, +7 Wis, +7 Divine Metamagic (16 Charisma + 4 Eagle’s Splendor), +1 Spell Focus, +1 Prayer, +2 Doom = 30 vs. Will Save +9, i.e. 100% success. Unless the Efreet rolls a natural 20, in which case you cast the second Suggestion you had prepared, but no Divine Metamagic this time, so DC 23 and 70% chance of success. If the Efreet is so lucky as to make his save again, you can easily resume your attempts after rest - he's not going anywhere from that diagrammed circle.

7. Suggest to Efreet a very nice deal – 2 wishes for you and 1 for him, plus he is released from the binding circle. Otherwise he’s killed in the circle by your undead minions' ranged weapons (he can’t counterattack because of the diagram). Any dislike for servitude should be negated since you’re a cleric of Tharizdun – who is worshipped by Efreeti as per MM IV - and will use the Wishes to further the cause of your god.

8. Your two Wishes are Necrotic Cyst on the Mage (base DC 19, +7 from your Wisdom = 26 vs. his Fort save of +3 = Automatic success) and Necrotic Domination on the same poor Mage (no save). (Wish duplicates any Other spell of 6th lvl or lower, and you'll be casting the spells as Cleric spells to get the +Wis to DC. Doesnt require the actual Cyst feat/focus as per wording of the Wish spell).

9. Now you have a Wizard slave who can summon Efreeti and do other useful stuff. Rest, Get another Efreet and wish for some moderately priced items such as Phylactery Of Undead Turning, Scepter of Netherworld, Rod of Defiance.

10. With these items and your Fire Domain you can now Command Efreeti, giving you 3 free Wishes per day per Efreet. Use these to get money, artifacts, +5 to all stats etc. All this at character level 5. And by the book.

Step 2: The XP-MACHINE – to be continued!




Oh I'm sure if he wanted to he could try to cook up some rules kludge.

Yes, that's what some people do when they play this game. They actually LOOK at the RULES and see what can be "cooked" with them. As opposed to, say, playing a 20-lvl Fighter, or straight Sorc with only Evocation on the list.





Can you tell me where exactly it is said that the IFCC has to wait until V is dead before they can control his soul?

Fiendish Codex II, for starters.
And Prak is right, the soul is not actively "controlled" (i.e. domination effect) even in Hell.


At that point, there have been no promises, and no descriptions.

Then what's all this "I have a few inquiries" if not negotiation of contract terms? Or do you suppose the author is going to actually subject us to a hundred pages of legalese?


So V could very well be dominated by one or more of the three epic level souls grafted to his own. They could very well remain, even after V has failed to "hold on."

No, that would be in direct infringement of the contract, as the fiends plainly said that a) the splice lasts only as long as V holds on to it, and b) V has complete control over the other three.


It does not say that. It says, "Or neutral, as the case may be." In other words, whichever V happens to be, good or neutral.

You're probably right. English's not my native. I took the phrase as meaning that V is neutral, but there's indeed some ambiguity. Nonetheless, I stand that V's entire development very clearly shows that whatever V is, he's not Good.

Tubercular Ox
2009-02-23, 09:10 PM
He who controls the splice controls the universe!

Lord_Butters_I
2009-02-23, 09:21 PM
I'm thinking V will accept the deal, and the IFCC will take custody of his soul when he is in opportune position to take control of one of the gates. They will fuse his soul with a powerful divine caster and attempt to take control of it.

Think about it: they know about the gates and that the OOTS knows about them from Sabine. They were NOT "just waiting for another request". The terms of the deal are not being exaggerated, the only thing insidious about the offer is the timing of V's payment. They're not out for mindless vandalism or pointless evil, they're megalomaniacs. Megalomaniacs tend to be drawn towards instant kill buttons.

Schaffer1979
2009-02-23, 10:03 PM
I find myself increasingly irritated at the question of V's alignment. Canon comic strips clearly demonstrate that V is of "good" alignment.

I think it's neutral good.

But here's the strip showing that V is of good alignment for any doubters.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html

Kish
2009-02-23, 10:08 PM
I find myself increasingly irritated at the question of V's alignment. Canon comic strips clearly demonstrate that V is of "good" alignment.

I think it's neutral good.

But here's the strip showing that V is of good alignment for any doubters.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html
Well done! This very old strip will surely silence anyone who might suggest either that Rich changed his mind since then, or that Vaarsuvius might have changed alignment in the 622 strips since then.

Now you should prove what gender s/he is.

Fargo1168
2009-02-23, 10:20 PM
Well done! This very old strip will surely silence anyone who might suggest either that Rich changed his mind since then, or that Vaarsuvius might have changed alignment in the 622 strips since then.

Now you should prove what gender s/he is.

Oh snap! You want some ice for that burn!

EmeraldRose
2009-02-23, 10:21 PM
At the very least, V is seriously considering the offer. My only concern is that, in the interest of saving the children ASAP, V may not give enough/any consideration to the ramifications of such a deal. Or may simply not care.

Rotipher
2009-02-23, 10:38 PM
But here's the strip showing that V is of good alignment for any doubters.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html

Unholy Blight damages morally-Neutral targets as well as Good ones. Granted, it can't inflict as much damage to Neutrals, but V's probably got fewer hp to begin with than the other party members (d4 HD + racial Con penalty).

Porthos
2009-02-23, 10:46 PM
I have a feeling of sliding into off-topic territory, so



Really. How kind of you to assume that.

Looking over your Pun Pun-esque plan I stand by my original statement (esp since said character doesn't stay LVL 1 for very long). :smalltongue:

A slightly more in-depth comment is that it relies, as all of these plans do, on the passive DM (not to mention OOC knowledge of how to plan all of these things waaaaaaay in advance). Sorry, not buying it.

But, as I said before, if this playstyle makes you (and by extenstion the people you play with) happy, knock yourself out. :smallsmile:

Anyway, as for your comment about Fiendish Codex II (an abomination of a sourcebook IMO, but that's neither here nor there), I say only this: What has that got to do with the actual comic that was posted? :smallsmile:

Just because there are rules in FC I and II for some demonic pacts, it doesn't neccesarily follow that all demonic pacts follow those same rules. Especially from a group that is expressly trying to be new and different.

malakim2099
2009-02-23, 11:23 PM
One other thing that occurs, for those saying that the deal won't take place until after V's death.



It might not even matter. Remember, when V's about to be hanged by Samantha and the bandits, V says that his ghost will be angry and vengeful, and have full possession of his spellcasting powers.

Who says the IFCC can't seize control of Ghost V right after say, Xykon kills him in front of a gate?



Just sayin'. :smalltongue:

Nevrmore
2009-02-24, 12:09 AM
Okay.

Seriously.

How fjording long can you honestly draw out this "V's about to say the four words" thing?

Really, it's not that I'm anticipating it or anything, because at this point I am caring less and less about the comic, but this cliffhanger stuff is a really cheap tactic.

Warren Dew
2009-02-24, 12:11 AM
Unholy Blight damages morally-Neutral targets as well as Good ones.

It only "sickens" good ones, though, and Rich posted at one point that the grey was supposed to indicate the sickening effect.

Of course, he later tried to take that back.

And yes, there have been quite a few comics since in which Vaarsuvius' outlook might have evolved.

Keshay
2009-02-24, 12:39 AM
Anyone else notice anything funny about the souls in question? Namely, V would gain access to the arcane spells of a Conjurer, a Necromancer, and a spontaneous caster? As I recall, V had Conjuration and Necromancy as bared schools. Wouldn't it be absolutely fiendish if V's new-found power's still followed her class restrictions, and thus through a technicality left her absolutely powerless to use any of them?

Honestly... Big freaking Deal. School specilization is totally useless. You get one extra spell slot of the chosen school per spell level and a +2 on spellcraft versus your chosen school. That's it. No bonus to save DC, nothing terribly useful. And for this honor, you have to totally give up 2 entire schools.

Whoopidy do.

You learn a spell from a forbidden school, you lose that one spell per level (that is confined to your chosen school) and the stupid +2 to the one-school spellcraft.

I fail to see the problem with V taking the deal (on the basis of it possibly being contrary to V's forbidden schools). The benefits vastly outweigh the demerits (in this respect).

Kish
2009-02-24, 03:07 AM
Okay.

Seriously.

How fjording long can you honestly draw out this "V's about to say the four words" thing?

Really, it's not that I'm anticipating it or anything, because at this point I am caring less and less about the comic, but this cliffhanger stuff is a really cheap tactic.
Not to put too fine a point on it, it's hardly Rich's fault that ever since the Oracle made that prediction, people on the forum have been scrutinizing every four-word (or more) construction to come out of Vaarsuvius' mouth with a magnifying glass.

Porthos
2009-02-24, 03:28 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, it's hardly Rich's fault that ever since the Oracle made that prediction, people on the forum have been scrutinizing every four-word (or more) construction to come out of Vaarsuvius' mouth with a magnifying glass.

Especially when one notes that the comic itself hasn't even alluded to the four word prophesy since it was first mentioned.

Yeah, the comic is establishing why V wants ultimate power. Hardly means that the comic itself is trying to drag the whole 4 word issue out.

If Rich is xtra special mean, this this whole little scene right now is just a red herring to rile up the fans who are expecting the 4 words to come out at any time...

... Not like they need any help in that, as you so accurately note. :smallamused:

Nevrmore
2009-02-24, 03:58 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, it's hardly Rich's fault that ever since the Oracle made that prediction, people on the forum have been scrutinizing every four-word (or more) construction to come out of Vaarsuvius' mouth with a magnifying class.
Everybody and their dying, paraplegic grandmothers (who are only half-conscious most of the time thanks to their medication) can see that this entire side-story about V leaving to go on his own to the island has been the setup for the four words prophecy. Now that it's finally time for him to say the four god damn words, the story is just drawing it out and out and out and they've run out of fjording thread.

Underground
2009-02-24, 04:16 AM
Have to say I dont like this offer.

V should have to sacrifice her soul or something.

This looks too much like Deus Ex Machina.

Nevrmore
2009-02-24, 04:35 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, it's hardly Rich's fault that ever since the Oracle made that prediction, people on the forum have been scrutinizing every four-word (or more) construction to come out of Vaarsuvius' mouth with a magnifying class.
Everybody and their dying, paraplegic grandmothers (who are only half-conscious most of the time thanks to their medication) can see that this entire side-story about V leaving to go on his own to the island has been the setup for the four words prophecy. Now that it's finally time for him to say the four god damn words, the story is just drawing it out and out and out and they've run out of fjording thread.

Undead Prince
2009-02-24, 05:11 AM
CharOp


Looking over your Pun Pun-esque plan I stand by my original statement (esp since said character doesn't stay LVL 1 for very long).

First, it's not "Pun-Pun-esque". The Pun-Pun gambit relies on so many mechanic exploits it'll take a page just to list them all. This plan, OTOH, makes good of a single strong ability - the Efreeti's Wish - which is there by canon and by all the fluff behind the mechanics. Wish-granting is a traditional power of genies and Efreets. The entire "Magic Circle + Dimensional Anchor + Planar Binding" chain, very thoroughly explained in the PHB entries for the respective spells, is basically designed to allow this particular move. Optimisation is in getting the Wishes reliably and very early in the game.

Second, I never said the character would have to STAY 1st level. Why should he, when there's power to be had? Sure, if you want, we could have a character with 1 actual level but an interesting race and a whole bunch of templates; however, that's beyond reasonable territory, IMHO.


A slightly more in-depth comment is that it relies, as all of these plans do, on the passive DM

As opposed to a DM actively gimping legitimate advancement in favor of - what? "Balanced" gameplay? Then how about gimping the Fighter and the Cleric in early levels so mages do not look so wimpy by comparison? How about stripping ALL classes of 90% of their abilities and giving everyone basically the same powers with marginally different flavour? What is this, "DnD for Dummies"? Even the dreaded 4th edition doesn't go that far.

Now, a SMART DM, when confronted with a player who knows his way around the system, would attempt to alleviate the disbalance by ingame means. I.e.: if the player is abusing the Wish-granting of Genies or Efreets, the DM may decide that the exploited Efreets sent word to their higher-ups, and a crack squad will be arriving at the player's location to punish the exploiter. Now it's up to the player to defend himself against such intrusions: for instance, the summoning takes place in a non-descript dungeon which cannot be identified by the Efreeti for purposes of teleporting back there; after the first Efreet, when we get the Wizard as slave, we put dimensional locks and anti-divinations in place, and never let the Efreets go from the summoning circles; etc.

That would be a case of DM not dumbing down the game, but rather rising up to engage the advanced players. And it should prove interesting to the other players; maybe they could unite to help defeat the upstart, or seek to exploit his achievements, or develop their own cunning schemes - whatever. Isn't taking the world on face to face more interesting than grinding through "level-appropriate" dungeons and encounters day after day?


(not to mention OOC knowledge of how to plan all of these things waaaaaaay in advance).

OOC knowledge? About the Efreeti's wish granting? That's FOLKLORE, even Commoners would have heard of that (particularly in the southern nations). And do you suggest that a Cleric does not know his own spells? With ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge(Religion)? Come on. He has Fire domain, and does not know that he can Turn Fire creatures? Really.

Finally, playing ANY character involves careful planning from the beginning of career. That's not even up for debate, that's how it's done.



Anyway, as for your comment about Fiendish Codex II (an abomination of a sourcebook IMO, but that's neither here nor there), I say only this: What has that got to do with the actual comic that was posted? :smallsmile:

Oh, I don't know... something small like the Rules by which the OOTS world Works? It's DnD, isn't it? 3.5? I thought we had that established back in Strip #1? And although there is homebrewery going around, I believe we should proceed by the book unless proven otherwise. So far, the deal's following the Faustian Pact rules - regarding your original question, V explicitely asks whether the fiends get his soul AFTER DEATH, which clearly shows that's how Faustian Pacts usually work out in OOTS world.

As for Mr Burlew's attitude towards supplementary rulebooks, I believe it's well illustrated in #431 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) and #546 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), as well as in many others that deal with various prestige classes/creatures/abilities. In short, the attitude is positive. Hell, they've got Incarnum! And BoVD!


Just because there are rules in FC I and II for some demonic pacts, it doesn't neccesarily follow that all demonic pacts follow those same rules. Especially from a group that is expressly trying to be new and different.

That might be true, and the Soul-splicing is a good example of something out of usual fiendish practices. However, and I reiterate, unless clearly stated otherwise we should proceed by the book; and so far, regarding your question, it's been stated that traditional practices in OOTS indeed correlate with DnD sourcebooks.


Who says the IFCC can't seize control of Ghost V

Why wait when you can Dominate him now. Or kill him and raise as a Ju-Ju Zombie; with Tongues you have a fully powerful undead spellcaster completely and forever at your command. Oh well.

Undead Prince
2009-02-24, 05:28 AM
Honestly... Big freaking Deal. School specilization is totally useless. You get one extra spell slot of the chosen school per spell level and a +2 on spellcraft versus your chosen school. That's it. No bonus to save DC, nothing terribly useful. And for this honor, you have to totally give up 2 entire schools.

Two words - Red Wizard. No, make it four words - Red Wizard Circle Magic.

The Minx
2009-02-24, 05:44 AM
Have to say I dont like this offer.

V should have to sacrifice her soul or something.

This looks too much like Deus Ex Machina.

Deus Ex? Tsk. :smallsmile:

What makes you think that the fiends' offer is anything as fair as what it seems? It has to sound good enough for someone as smart as V to take it, you know.

Undead Prince
2009-02-24, 06:03 AM
The simple fact of the matter is that in DnD it is well known that there are spells/abilities that can take over people's souls.

Really? Name one. And I'm not talking about some cheap charm/compulsion spells, or soul imprisonment. No - actual, honest-to-god control over the soul, not mind or body. Citation, please.

Note that even the Epic spell "Soul Dominion" only allows you to control the body of the creature, and not the actual soul (which remains independent and conscious of all the proceedings).

The only even remotely related possibility is Control Undead on an incorporeal undead which happens to be a soul (e.g. Ghost). But that's obviously not the case here, because normally a PC does not turn into a Ghost upon death (V was probably just scaring the rogues with this possibility that one time). And if the fiends wanted control of an undead V, there are much simpler ways (Ju-Ju Zombie if you want him to retain all class abilities).


Or have you never heard of spells like Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicjar.htm)? :smalltongue:

It seems you're the one who never heard of Magic Jar, or how it works. It does not take over souls, it takes over bodies. Souls are merely placed in a receptacle for the duration of the spell. It's in the PHB, for chrissakes.

Dr.Desastro
2009-02-24, 06:04 AM
I am not quite sure. Releasing the Snarl would mean end to all existance. But...wouldn't that mean end to the abyss and hells, too? So there would be a reason for evil to ally with the "good" guys. Just self-preservence.

Undead Prince
2009-02-24, 06:11 AM
I am not quite sure. Releasing the Snarl would mean end to all existance. But...wouldn't that mean end to the abyss and hells, too? So there would be a reason for evil to ally with the "good" guys. Just self-preservence.

There are many kinds of evil. As is clearly stated in Fiendish Codex II, Devils want to rule the universe; Demons, OTOH, want to destroy it, even destroying themselves in the process. So do clerics of particularly destructive deities, such as Tharizdun (who seems to be the prototype for the Snarl).

In our case, when push came to shove, Lee would unite with the goodies to preserve the universe, Cedrik would side with the Snarl and whoever wants to release it, and Nero would probably side with Lee since Neutral Evil care so much about themselves.

Dr.Desastro
2009-02-24, 06:29 AM
I thought demons want to destroy the universe because it is has order. Thus by destroying the universe they re-estate a condition of pure chaos. I.e. total enthalpy/endless possibilities. The primordial stuff they are made of. But no existance - no chaos nor order. And that means - no demons as well.

Call me philosophical today ^^

The Minx
2009-02-24, 06:39 AM
I am not quite sure. Releasing the Snarl would mean end to all existance. But...wouldn't that mean end to the abyss and hells, too? So there would be a reason for evil to ally with the "good" guys. Just self-preservence.

Nale is not of the self destructive sort. He realizes that Xykon thinks that he can control the Snarl, and he is basing his own plans on the idea that the Snarl can be controlled. Since Nale is ultimately their source of information, there is no reason to suppose that Lee, Nero and Cedric don't think that they can control the Snarl too.

EDIT: fixed messed up wording.

Undead Prince
2009-02-24, 06:51 AM
I thought demons want to destroy the universe because it is has order. Thus by destroying the universe they re-estate a condition of pure chaos. I.e. total enthalpy/endless possibilities. The primordial stuff they are made of. But no existance - no chaos nor order. And that means - no demons as well.

Total entropy = total destruction. Pure chaos equals nothingness, as there is nothing - i.e. no objects, creatures, energies, whatever. And possibilities - for what? The only thing that can evolve from chaos is order. So, for all practical purposes, the Demons and the Snarl are after the same thing. A rose by any other name 8=)

Marduk Prophet
2009-02-24, 08:12 AM
That's about what I'm thinking as well...

We know that these Three are very interested in the Gates, from what Sabine has been told (as she works for them as well).

We know from Start of Darkness that Redcloak intends for the Gate control to shift into the Celestial Plane to blackmail the other gods into giving goblinoids a fair shake.

I'm starting to see a scenario in play where V is forced to work with Redcloak to move the gate to the Celestial Plane... and then open it at the bidding of the IFCC.

Think about it. Why get armies all gathered up to kill off the goody goody good outsiders, when you have a Snarl all geared up to do it FOR YOU.

Just my thoughts on the matter anyway. This could be very very bad. :smallamused:

What? The gates are built around tears in the reality encasing the Snarl. Cities/illusions/dungeons/giant tree-friends were built around them to protect the rifts. I wouldn't think you could just *move* them.

Hokay.. so.. in this thread we have:
The deal is good, but something goes wrong!
The deal is good, but nothing really goes wrong because V is awesome!
The deal is fair, but not good. It will be used for fiendish means!
The deal is fair, but terrible. It will be used to end all goodness!
The deal is terrible. Goodbye everything!
The deal is terrible. V is stupid anyway.

:mitd:Deal? What deal?
:xykon: Oh fer cryin' out... *points*
:mitd: Huh, never noticed that before. Now what about that deal I keep hearing about?

Well, we can safely say that this community is excellent at not actually figuring anything out. We all just randomly guess until the answer is revealed and someone can exclaim, "I knew it all along! I was the right one!"

This is why I attend the new strip thread.

Lord Kamper
2009-02-24, 08:42 AM
"the blood of angels will flow like rivers, and we will gather around great dispensers of it to discuss the previous evening's televised entertainment!"

LOL brilliant

EmeraldPhoenix
2009-02-24, 09:05 AM
How much fun would it be for a demon to say, "Oh, you used your thirty minutes of power to use me to save your family! Sweet. I'm using my thirty minutes of power to use you to kill them. Isn't it ironic?"

:smalleek:actually, combined together they could have an hour and a half with her if she used soul splice for 30 minutes. All three of them get the amount of time she was using it, so she has arcane power for x minutes and then she spends time in hell for x minutes TIMES 3!

Actually, though, I think that V should take the deal. It's the only chance for saving her family, and maybe it's just because I'm chaotic neutral all the way, but I think that it's a relatively good offer. I think I'm going to have to be the devil's advocate here and say that maybe her words of power are "I accept your offer".

Right time: When she needs power the most
Right being: One of the cloaked guys
Wrong reasons: She wants to use EVIL power to rescue people. That's a GOOD reason (not a "good" reason, but a reason that would count towards her soul being good.)

Marduk Prophet
2009-02-24, 09:15 AM
I have to disagree a bit with the last part of your statement. While using evil power for the defense of innocent people (as portrayed to date. Never know sometimes with Rich) is a logical reasoning given the dire circumstances, falling to the temptation of using that evil power for a good cause is a neutral reasoning, in my opinion. But then again, this is coming from someone who has relatively limited DnD experience. I find that many of the themes shown in the webcomic, however, fall out of line with commonalities one sees in DnD (or at least those I have seen in tabletops in general).

I do not personally believe this is the fulfillment of the prophecy. Something about it. Just a gut feeling.

Raenir Salazar
2009-02-24, 09:55 AM
what happens after her time with the 3 fiends is up?

Fabuloso
2009-02-24, 09:59 AM
The deal is a scam for sure. We all know what really is the TRUE key to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER, and it certainly is not a bunch of second-hand* epic spellcasters' souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html).

* second-body, actually.

Marduk Prophet
2009-02-24, 10:13 AM
The deal is a scam for sure. We all know what really is the TRUE key to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER, and it certainly is not a bunch of second-hand* epic spellcasters' souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html).

* second-body, actually.

I have always wondered what became of the cake that was held so admirably by the Doily of Power. We may never know.

Raenir Salazar
2009-02-24, 10:47 AM
the cake was a lie.

EmeraldPhoenix
2009-02-24, 10:49 AM
The deal is a scam for sure. We all know what really is the TRUE key to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER, and it certainly is not a bunch of second-hand* epic spellcasters' souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html).

* second-body, actually.


Maybe V will be lucky, and her apprentice baker mate will have a doily in the house with which to slay the dragon.:smallsmile: