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Iliad
2009-02-23, 01:32 AM
I'm running a campaign in a month or so. One of my friends after being indecisive for a long time decides he wants to play a telepathic psion.

However I've heard much hate for them, and they seem to be often banned in many campaigns.

I've looked briefly over them and they don't really seem to fit in my setting but what have your experiences been?

Do they fit out of place in normal settings, or do people have a beef with them because they are cheesy?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-23, 01:36 AM
I'll post assuming 3.5. Anything else, ban it.

Psionics is balanced. Extremely well. It has maybe a tenth of the issues of core D&D. Remember that he can't spend more points on a power than his Manifester level, and rule full Psionics-Magic transparency, and you're good.

RTGoodman
2009-02-23, 01:38 AM
Most Psionics hate comes from people that think it's horribly overpowered without taking time to read the actual rules. As long as you can remember that you CAN'T SPEND MORE POWER POINTS ON A SINGLE POWER THAN YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL, you'll be fine. From a balance standpoint, Psionics is fine.

Now, there are a couple of reasons outside of that to ban them. If you don't know the rules and don't want to learn them, it might be reasonable to not use them. That's between you and your players, though. The other problem is that you might not feel that they fit in your campaign fluff-wise. There's a lot of argument over whether or not they fit in a standard fantasy world, and both sides make good points, but it's really up to you. It's definitely not cheesy or bad, it just doesn't work for some people.

Really, though, I don't have a problem with Psionics. It's just another system that's, really, probably better-designed than a lot of other parts of D&D 3.x.

sonofzeal
2009-02-23, 01:39 AM
What version?

2e Psi was... useful, but there was a small chance of really horribly broken things happening, and that turned a lot of people off. Also, the entire Telepathy discipline offered no saving throws, which is just borked. Still, it made psionics flavourful and interesting, and it's quite possible to fix with a few houserules.

3e (NOT 3.5e) Psi was.... horribly overcomplicated, and just kinda stupid in a lot of ways. Pretty much unsalvageable, as far as I'm aware, and soured people for 3.5e Psi because they didn't realize it was different.

3.5e Psi was... more or less fine. The biggest problem is that there's a "crystal" theme that some people find off-setting. I actually really prefer the Psi rules, since they use a power point system like every consol/computer RPG under the sun, instead of the Vancian casting of wizards and clerics. The result is that Psions can choose to use higher level powers when they want to, with the danger that they'll go through their power points faster. Just remember that you're limited by your Manifester Level (like Caster Level but harder to boost) in how many power points you can put into a particular power. Some people forget this, and it leads to horribly borked "novas".

lsfreak
2009-02-23, 01:40 AM
I haven't played them or really even played with them ever, but my understanding from reading the forums is that banning falls into five categories:
1 - people don't understand them and don't want to bother trying to learn them, to make sure the player doesn't do anything cheesy
2 - people don't understand them, allow them, and players do something cheesy and against RAW because the DM doesn't know any better; DM then bans them
3 - DM had bad experiences in previous editions where they were overpowered
4 - DM think they're overpowered, and if cheesed they probably are. DM forgets how utterly and totally broken a batman wizard is.
5 - The DM doesn't like the flavor and fluff that go along with them.

Starscream
2009-02-23, 01:42 AM
I agree, I have never had any balance issues involving psionics. Learning a whole book's worth of rules to accommodate one player seems like it might be annoying, but if you don't mind I don't think it will be a problem.

Drascin
2009-02-23, 01:43 AM
Psionics- should they be allowed?

Yes.

What, you wanted an explanation? Fine, fine.

Basically, the only reason to not allow 3.5 psionics is that you, as a DM, personally dislike them. They are, overall, far, far more balanced than arcane or divine magic, and easily refluffed into sorcery if you really want to, as the psionic system rather fits a spontaneous caster more than Vancian.

Most problems with it nd up stemming from people not taking into account a single rule: you can't, except for feats that allow you to, ever spend more than your level in points in a single power. Keep that in mind, and you should have no trouble.

AslanCross
2009-02-23, 01:45 AM
I'm with those who say that 3.5 psionics is ok and should be allowed. People who say psionics is broken have not really read the rules carefully.

xanaphia
2009-02-23, 01:49 AM
See here for why psionics isn't broken. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=331253)

Always remember that you can't spend more power points on a single power than your manifestor level.

I find that you can simply rewrite the fluff of psionics to be like sorcery. It improves the balance of 3.5.

Alleine
2009-02-23, 01:51 AM
Psionics are good. No mechanical reason to ban them.
However, if a character goes around touting at every bump and turn that they're different because they're a manifester and use powers instead of spells, it tends to grate on one's nerves :smallannoyed:


Reposting because you need to make sure you know:
You cannot spend more power points on a single power than your manifester level.
There are few exceptions.

Xuincherguixe
2009-02-23, 01:55 AM
There aren't really a whole lot of good reasons not to use psionics.

RTGoodman
2009-02-23, 01:57 AM
Remember that he can't spend more points on a power than his Manifester level


As long as you can remember that you CAN'T SPEND MORE POWER POINTS ON A SINGLE POWER THAN YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL, you'll be fine.


Just remember that you're limited by your Manifester Level (like Caster Level but harder to boost) in how many power points you can put into a particular power.


you can't, except for feats that allow you to, ever spend more than your level in points in a single power.


Always remember that you can't spend more power points on a single power than your manifestor level.


You cannot spend more power points on a single power than your manifester level.

Yeah, it's that important. :smalltongue:

Temp.
2009-02-23, 02:08 AM
Assuming 3.5 because I never used them in earlier editions:

The rules are some of the best-balanced spellcasting mechanics in the game. Play is pretty smooth and intuitive so long as everyone remembers the PP limit. After learning them, the rules tend to be simpler in actual play (Summoners don't need to dig through books or apply templates to thei beasties, effects tend to be more straightforward and there are fewer sources to scour in search of the Ultimate Spell List).

Honestly, I'd tell a new player to skip the casting classes in the PHB entirely and look at the EPH for any magic-user. Prepared casting and bottomless spell options just don't jive with most players' initial concepts of spellcasters.

'Course, I usually just shove Psions into pointy hats and call them Wizards. The fluff isn't something I would incorporate into any of my settings; the only time I've seen it presented as it is in the books, it felt like an awkward tacked-on afterthought.

Draz74
2009-02-23, 02:15 AM
'Course, I usually just shove Psions into pointy hats and call them Wizards. The fluff isn't something I would incorporate into any of my settings; the only time I've seen it presented as it is in the books, it felt like an awkward tacked-on afterthought.

Amen, amen. (With the exception of certain settings, including Dark Sun and possibly Eberron, where psionics are built in from the get-go and fit just fine, fluff-wise.)

Psionics: adopt the mechanics, refluff the fluff!

Crow
2009-02-23, 02:17 AM
Psionics is way better balanced than normal spellcasting in 3.5 edition. There is no mechanical reason to disallow it. Flavor now...that's a different story depending on your game.

Iliad
2009-02-23, 02:32 AM
Yeah, it's that important. :smalltongue:I've gathered.

Hmmm I see that psionics apparently do not deserve their bad name.

The player seems really eager to play it, so I'll learn the rules and probably fluff into a special sorcerer.

Kaihaku
2009-02-23, 03:02 AM
As has been said, there's no mechanic reason to ban psionics other than the fact that they make the rest of the system look bad.

Personally, I usually dislike having both magic and psionics in one campaign but that's for Fluff reasons.

Optimystik
2009-02-23, 03:13 AM
Personally, I usually dislike having both magic and psionics in one campaign but that's for Fluff reasons.

As do I - I tend to want the transparency rules tossed out the window, which in turn leads to psions becoming overpowered.


Yeah, it's that important. :smalltongue:

So I heard you can't spend more points on a single power than your manifester level, is that true?

Satyr
2009-02-23, 03:13 AM
From the pure mechanical side, psionics makes much more sense and fun than magic and I would rather ban wizards, clerics and druids before I would ban psionic characters, as they are less grotesquely unbalanced and the combination of variably useable power points and augmentations are more fun and feel more organic.

From a roleplaying perspective, I see that there may be a little problem with having both psionics and magic, as this means that there are two different supernatural sets of powers with little distinctive limits. The social and narrative niches of psionicists and mages tend to overlap, which may be a problem. Due to the superiority of the rules, it is still a better idea to ban the traditional magical classes (perhaps with the exception of warlocks and binders). Complete Psionics, while not being a truly great book, offer some very adequate replacements for divine spellcasters as well.

skywalker
2009-02-23, 03:20 AM
One problem I've always had with psionics:

I've never understood "psionic-magic transparency." I mean, I understand why you do it. But it seems to me like it kills any "realism" there might be. "This thing is immune to magic, so now it is immune to psionics as well, because otherwise the game would be broken." Lovely. I've never been able to think of a good way to fluff the rule, especially when the rule seems to punish player ingenuity, and the "kill it with the unexpected" idea. Of course, the other way is to introduce monsters that are psi-resistant, but that's really just the Yuuzhan-Vong.

In sum, I know I could never in good conscience use the "psionics-magic transparency" rule, and therefore, I know that my players would all realize it, and then show up the next game saying "so, I have this psion," "hey skywalker, about this psionic warrior..." "Instead of a rogue, I've been thinking about this lurk class..." And while I don't want to discourage creative thinking, I don't want to encourage what I've just described.

So I guess that's why I love the system, but would have a hard time using it.

sonofzeal
2009-02-23, 03:25 AM
I've gathered.

Hmmm I see that psionics apparently do not deserve their bad name.

The player seems really eager to play it, so I'll learn the rules and probably fluff into a special sorcerer.
Rules really aren't very hard...

1) Psionic characters have power points ("pp"), as given by their class level and this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters).

2) Every power has a base pp cost. Crystal Shard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crystalShard.htm) costs 1, Assimilate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/assimilate.htm) costs 17.

3) Many powers can be "augmented" by spending more pp than they require. Mind Thrust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindThrust.htm) can be augmented for extra damage and DC (and is very powerful, but weakened by being Mind-Affecting and totally negated on a passed save), and Astral Construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralConstruct.htm) can be augmented to produce more powerful constructs. Note that, unlike Arcane or Divine magic, your damage almost never goes up with your CL; you have to pay extra power points, akin to using Heighten Spell, to get that extra damage. Durations still improve though.

4) It's been mentioned before, repeatedly, but you cannot spend more PP on a power than your Manifester Level ("ML"). Become familiar with the Overchannel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#overchannel) feat, as it's one of the only ways to raise your ML and is hence very popular with psionic characters.

5) Psionic characters have an extra resource token at their disposal, called a "psi focus". It doesn't really do anything by itself, but some feats give you small benefits while you still have it, and other feats give you a larger benefit if you use it up. You only ever have one psi focus (unless you take Psycrystal Containment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psicrystalContainment), in which case you only ever have two), and it takes a full-round action and a Concentration check to get it back. Applying "metapsionics" (otherwise almost identical to "metamagics") pretty much invariably expends your psi focus.


Aaaand that's just about it! Oh wait, one more...

6) Psionic characters do not experience Arcane Spell Failure for wearing heavier armors. I suggest house-ruling this.

AslanCross
2009-02-23, 03:27 AM
I don't mind magic and psionics appearing in the same setting, and transparency is fine with me. As far as I'm concerned, they're simply different ways of achieving the same end (manipulating the fabric of reality). I think they coexist especially well in Eberron, where psionics are tied very closely to the Quori and the Kalashtar.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-23, 03:30 AM
Well, this might not work everywhere, but I've always rationalized it as magic and psionics are simply 2 different starting points that lead to the same destination. Imagine a 2 roads that eventually meet up and then reach a town. Magic and Psionics are the two roads, and if some one manages to put a road block on the last stretch(Spell resistance/immunity/whatever) then it can cause problems for both systems.

Drascin
2009-02-23, 03:33 AM
One problem I've always had with psionics:

I've never understood "psionic-magic transparency." I mean, I understand why you do it. But it seems to me like it kills any "realism" there might be. "This thing is immune to magic, so now it is immune to psionics as well, because otherwise the game would be broken." Lovely. I've never been able to think of a good way to fluff the rule, especially when the rule seems to punish player ingenuity, and the "kill it with the unexpected" idea. Of course, the other way is to introduce monsters that are psi-resistant, but that's really just the Yuuzhan-Vong.

In sum, I know I could never in good conscience use the "psionics-magic transparency" rule, and therefore, I know that my players would all realize it, and then show up the next game saying "so, I have this psion," "hey skywalker, about this psionic warrior..." "Instead of a rogue, I've been thinking about this lurk class..." And while I don't want to discourage creative thinking, I don't want to encourage what I've just described.

So I guess that's why I love the system, but would have a hard time using it.

Okay, you're looking at it wrong. The difference between psionics and magic is not the kind of effect, but the source. For example, I like the interpretation that Arcane is based in understanding the laws of the world and twisting a couple things slightly so that it works like you want before the world gets the chance to go "...um, dude, thermodynamics?", divine is asking a god to please give me a hand, man, because I'm dying here, and psionics is connecting your mind to the world and believing in the explosion so hard it actually happens :smalltongue:.

Now more seriously, I don't see where you're coming from. The difference is solely the source of the power. If you allow Spell resistance to work for both Divine and Arcane, despite having completely different sources, why shouldn't it work for psionics as well? The effects are pretty much the same, after all.

Optimystik
2009-02-23, 03:36 AM
5) Psionic characters have an extra resource token at their disposal, called a "psi focus". It doesn't really do anything by itself, but some feats give you small benefits while you still have it, and other feats give you a larger benefit if you use it up. You only ever have one psi focus (unless you take Psycrystal Containment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psicrystalContainment), in which case you only ever have two), and it takes a full-round action and a Concentration check to get it back. Applying "metapsionics" (otherwise almost identical to "metamagics") pretty much invariably expends your psi focus.

You forgot the most important feat of all (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation), the one that cuts getting focused down to a move action and actually makes metapsionics semi-worthwhile.


Aaaand that's just about it! Oh wait, one more...

6) Psionic characters do not experience Arcane Spell Failure for wearing heavier armors. I suggest house-ruling this.

Why? They still need the proficiencies to properly wear it, in which case they're either burning feats badly or losing manifester levels by multiclassing.

kamikasei
2009-02-23, 03:39 AM
Dracsin ninja'd me: we have "divine-arcane transparency", why not psionics-magic? I think of it as simply saying people can achieve small-s supernatural effects in different ways, but the stuff they're acting on is the same in any case, and resistances, dispelling etc. works the same way across the board.

Honestly, I never really get the "psionics doesn't fit with other magic" argument. Okay, you can say there's a lot of overlap in niche/archetype between psions and wizards, sure. But the question of "what's the difference between psionics and arcane or divine magic?" seems to demand that psionics explain itself in a lot more depth than either arcane or divine is ever expected to.

sonofzeal
2009-02-23, 03:42 AM
You forgot the most important feat of all (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation), the one that cuts getting focused down to a move action and actually makes metapsionics semi-worthwhile.
I thought of it, but I'd already linked enough things and I figured he'd see it if it came up. Not really important as an exception while explaining, IMO, although it certainly is useful to take.


Why? They still need the proficiencies to properly wear it, in which case they're either burning feats badly or losing manifester levels by multiclassing.
How often does a Psion need to make attack rolls? How exactly is the Psion in any sort of trouble from being non-proficient with their armor? What's keeping any intelligent Psion from packing a Tower Shield and the heaviest armor they can buy?

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-23, 03:46 AM
Several powers do include attack roles, but the most damming part would be their str: for them, Str is a dump stat and the things you mention are heavy. Plus, to make the investment worthwhile they have to cut into their gold to enhance it.

Oh, and its not like the Casting in armor breaks Divine casting, and they get proficiencies!

Keld Denar
2009-02-23, 03:46 AM
HAI GUIS! I HEARD ONCE THAT PSIONIC CHARACTERS CAN'T SPEND MORE PP THAN THEY HAVE MANIFESTER LEVELS. CAN ANY1 CONFIRM THIS FACT?

Oh, and this...the best reason to be a Psion.

http://www.kevinshurtleff.com/wp-content/gallery/funny/crush_germans_mind.jpg

kamikasei
2009-02-23, 03:51 AM
Oh, and this...the best reason to be a Psion.

Keld, I'm disappointed in you. I was expecting The Sandwich.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-23, 03:56 AM
Keld, I'm disappointed in you. I was expecting The Sandwich. One Psionic Sandwich coming up! (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-592735) :smallbiggrin:

Saph
2009-02-23, 05:37 AM
I've run a couple of game with both wizards and psionicists. As mentioned, balance-wise psionics are just fine. There are a few overpowered things, but not as many as spells (although this might just be because there are ten times as many spells as psionic powers). The only major issue I have with the rules is the lack of verbal/somantic components for powers, which can be abused in a variety of ways (whoops, looks like you've all been killed by someone you've got no way of detecting), but this isn't a huge deal.

The problems with psionics are mostly flavour.

Pretty much everything psionics can do, magic can do. In fact, about half the psionic powers are just sorcerer/wizard spells with a different name. Psions also occupy the same niche as wizards. This ends up giving psionics a bit of a "fifth wheel" feeling.
Much of the flavour, as written, jars a bit with a fantasy game, like all the stuff about ectoplasm. You can reflavour it, I guess, but that's actually quite a lot of work.
Most D&D settings and modules just aren't written with psionics in mind. This is probably the biggest problem, and it turned out to be the biggest issue for the psion character in my old Phantasy Star game. Most D&D worlds have a lot of magical effects floating around. Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids can analyse them with Spellcraft and can relate them to spells on their spell list. Psions, though, are sidelined. Even with psionics/magic transparency, you can't use Psicraft to analyse magic and you can't use Spellcraft to analyse psionics. No matter how you do this, someone ends up getting left out.

As some people have mentioned, I think the best way to use psionics is to have it replace arcane magic completely; psions in place of wizards, psywarriors in place of duskblades. But then you still have the split between the divine magic users and the psionicists.

With retrospect, I really wish they'd just made psionics a different flavour of magic to begin with. It would have made it much easier to integrate into a campaign.

- Saph

KIDS
2009-02-23, 05:45 AM
A very well balanced system that feels more magical than the core system while having much less loopholes. You don't have to love it, but I recommend that you at least try it.

p.s. if you think psionics are sci-fi, take a look at material components for scrying, fireball, daze, lightning arc and a variety of other default spells. They won't seem nearly so much out of place.

Eldariel
2009-02-23, 05:46 AM
Call Psions Sorcerers, have Wizards stay Wizards, problem solved. It actually makes huge amounts of sense too; Sorcerers' innate magic gives them a very different approach to spellcasting than Wizards' "read it until it sticks"-idea, and they can manipulate magic on a much more fundamental level, making for a point-based system rather than slot-based system. And as it stands, Sorcerers are pretty much just Cha-Wizards with wonky mechanics, so I can't imagine anyone missing them.

kamikasei
2009-02-23, 05:47 AM
Even with psionics/magic transparency, you can't use Psicraft to analyse magic and you can't use Spellcraft to analyse psionics. No matter how you do this, someone ends up getting left out.

Personally, I houserule this away without even thinking about it. Do you see any particular problem with doing so? It is a flaw in the rules, but not a difficult one to fix.

Aquillion
2009-02-23, 05:50 AM
I'm running a campaign in a month or so. One of my friends after being indecisive for a long time decides he wants to play a telepathic psion.

However I've heard much hate for them, and they seem to be often banned in many campaigns.

I've looked briefly over them and they don't really seem to fit in my setting but what have your experiences been?

Do they fit out of place in normal settings, or do people have a beef with them because they are cheesy?As others have said, Psionics is fairly balanced, as far as casters go. They're not nearly as overwhelming as other full-casters (though they are still full casters, and certainly not underpowered.)

If you don't like the fluff, and your friend just likes the mechanics, then refluff them. "Psionics" is a silly word anyway. A mystic who trains his internal energy could work just as well for flavor. Heck, you could say that it's basically psionics, but everyone in the setting (including the person using it) considers it just another form of magic -- that seems like a fairly logical reaction anyway.

If you fluff it into a special sorcerer, don't forget to merge Psicraft / Spellcraft and Use Psionic Device / Use Magic Device. Seriously, I don't know why they divided those up in the first place. Extend transparency far beyond what's printed in the rules.

Also... it's sometimes a bad idea to combine wizards/sorcerers and psions in the same party, since their abilities overlap so much (and the psion is likely to be overshadowed if the wizard really uses their spells to their full extent.) It's not a huge issue, but at the very least having a psion and an arcane caster is a bit redundant.

The Minx
2009-02-23, 05:59 AM
There are a handful of builds and items that allow you to use power points beyond the usual limits and/or spend fewer power points than would normally be required. From the SRD: Torc of Power Preservation. Avoid these.

There are powers that can be abused in a loop-de-loop fashion, similar to what Mages can do. Just be aware of these: things like Plane Shift (to a plane where time does not pass to recoup power points in the middle of a battle, for instance). They cannot do this more abusively than mages, though, so that's sorta OK.

There is a variant, the Erudite, who can learn any number of powers, much like the Wizard can learn any number of spells. He is only limited in the number of different powers he can use each day, but otherwise he has the spontaneous casting of Psions and Sorcerers, the versatility of Mages (except he has fewer sourcebooks to choose from than the Sorcerer) and the power point flexibility of Psions. Probably best to avoid him until you have familiarized yourself with psionics in general (although he's still no more abusive, potentially, than the Wizard). [EDIT to clarify: he is basically a spontaneous caster (well, manifester), and can use only a limited set in a given day, but he is not limited to a specific set of powers each and every day like the Sorcerer or regular Psion. Instead, the first time he uses a power, that power "sticks" in his mind, he can now use that power spontaneously, but cannot change the selection. The next time he uses a power that day, if it is a different power, that too will "stick" and so on. The number of different powers he has access to per day is something like his class level / 2, IIRC. Of course, he can simply plane shift to a plane where time does not pass to get to another day and start afresh]

All in all, they play like crystal/zen themed sorcerers with power points instead of Vancian casting, and who are limited in the number of powers they can choose outside of their specialized field. The main issue would be whether your campaign world really needs another type of mystical power guy or not. If you feel it does, sure go for the Psion. It won't hurt your world more than Batman or Tippy-Wizard, that's for sure. :smallwink:

lord_khaine
2009-02-23, 06:03 AM
There are a handful of builds and items that allow you to use power points beyond the usual limits and/or spend fewer power points than would normally be required. From the SRD: Torc of Power Preservation. Avoid these.



these items are about the same as standard arcane or divine caster lv boosts, if you allow any of those then it would not be fair to cut the Torc out.

The Minx
2009-02-23, 06:05 AM
these items are about the same as standard arcane or divine caster lv boosts, if you allow any of those then it would not be fair to cut the Torc out.

Well, the torc is different in that it potentially allows unlimited power use. There are other boosts which can be used instead, after all: it's not like ALL power boosts psions get are abusive, not by a long shot.

lord_khaine
2009-02-23, 06:28 AM
Well, the torc is different in that it potentially allows unlimited power use. There are other boosts which can be used instead, after all: it's not like ALL power boosts psions get are abusive, not by a long shot

i know of only one unlimitet power combo with the Torc, and that require a pretty obscure feat to work, by itself the Torc is just a expensive manifesting booster.

The Minx
2009-02-23, 06:40 AM
i know of only one unlimitet power combo with the Torc, and that require a pretty obscure feat to work, by itself the Torc is just a expensive manifesting booster.

I did say that it *potentially* allowed unlimited power use. I also said that the options psions had for this sort of thing were more limited than those available to mages.

Since the OP was asking about the balance of psions, I felt it to be only fair to mention that some abuses do exist and that he should just be aware of them, that's all.

The Glyphstone
2009-02-23, 07:27 AM
Banning the Torc of Power Preservation would roughly equate to, say, banning Consumptive/Greater Consumptive Field, since they're both minor +effective level boosters with the potential to go infinite.

Actually, that's not a bad idea, though GCF has way more power non-infinite than the torc does.

Psionic 'abuse' tends more towards lots and lots of actions - Temporal Acceleration blows Timestop out of the water, and there is a nifty abuse loop with Syncronicity that gets infinite standard actions.

Aquillion
2009-02-23, 09:17 AM
Banning the Torc of Power Preservation would roughly equate to, say, banning Consumptive/Greater Consumptive Field, since they're both minor +effective level boosters with the potential to go infinite.

Actually, that's not a bad idea, though GCF has way more power non-infinite than the torc does.I dunno. GCF can get pretty broken even through normal use -- it can add up fast, without even meaning to. A Torc of Power Preservation, though, is just another magic item unless you go out of your way to use one specific trick (which isn't one you're likely to pull without meaning to.)

olentu
2009-02-23, 12:02 PM
I am going to note that in the Magic Item Compendium the Torc of Power Preservation was changed to only work a limited number times per day.

Alleine
2009-02-23, 12:33 PM
If this is the player's first time doing psionics, then I don't think anything needs to be banned from the start. Chances are he'll be too busy having fun to go look for all the obscure feats and and powers that he needs to become OMGZ TEH UBAR POWER.

Just don't let him use Complete Psionic. It breaks more than it fixes, and some of the rules are just confusing. This is assuming ComPsi even fixed anything.

Draz74
2009-02-23, 12:40 PM
This is assuming ComPsi even fixed anything.

I think at least nerfing the save DC of Energy Missile is good. And the Ardent is great, as are Linked Power and Soulbow.

Person_Man
2009-02-23, 12:45 PM
Yes, allow psionics. They're awesome.

You'll probably run across some powers that seem broken at first. Hustle, Hostile Empathic Transfer, Claws of the Beast/Vampire, etc. In reality though, they're just cool, and seem broken when compared to vanilla Fighters and whatnot. Compared to full casters and Tome of Battle Classes and Binders and Totemists, they're actually very balanced.

Advocate
2009-02-23, 12:48 PM
Yes, yes they should. Psions are much tamer than casters. No contest. So there is absolutely no grounds to ban them from a power standpoint unless you also ban the Big Five, Sorcerers, Favored Souls, and various other such classes that are on the same or higher level. And if you do all that, you're likely going to have to reconfigure the whole system to deal with the fact that you've just removed most of the casters, in a game where you flat out need spells to solve problems.

This is especially true for Telepaths, as [Mind Affecting] is one of the most common immune tags in the game.

Darth Stabber
2009-02-23, 04:34 PM
Yeah, there have been many times that i have just stripped wiz/sorc out of the game and renamed Psion/wilder to what they replace. Cut the arcane gish classes and replace with Psychic warrior, and give soulknife full bab, and everybody is happy.

Ent
2009-02-23, 04:50 PM
Thank you xanaphia for that link; that and this thread have helped to dissolve a very bad taste 3.0 psionics left. I am now, for the first time, opening the XPH (crystals still seem lame).

And thank you KIDS for that link to Kurald's affirmation of the obviousness "On the awesomeness of CW Samurai class". It really is inspirational.

Advocate
2009-02-23, 04:52 PM
Soulknives still suck. There is a Psychic Warrior ACF on one of the Mind's Eye articles that basically makes them Soulknives for one feat.

Funny thing? Getting an entire class worth of abilities for a single feat actually came out balanced. That's how bad Soulknives are. No surprise, seeing as 'has a weapon' is a class feature of every beatstick everywhere.

Gamiress
2009-02-23, 05:02 PM
Psions are awesome, although the Telepath power list gets downright terrifying at high levels.

One of my favourite characters is a shy little Telepath named Alex. Since his partner Talyn (a duskblade) and their friend Dimitri (a necromancer) trade battlefield control and blasting, Alex has mostly support skills and powers, keeping the enemy cowed for Talyn to hack at. In Roleplay and Fluff terms, he's the party cartographer, translator, diplomat, and Encyclopedia Alexica.

"Alex, what are these?"

"Water caltrops. They're a temperate marsh plant, this one looks like Trapa Bicorni-"

"KTHNX"

ravenkith
2009-02-23, 05:07 PM
If you are using th Expanded Psionics handbook, then yes, psionics should be allowed.

As many others have said before me, they are less powerful than wizards, clerizillas, or druids, and due to the lack of available prestige classes, have great difficulty in becoming broken like the wizard.

kyoten
2009-02-23, 06:02 PM
Yes, yes they should. Psions are much tamer than casters. No contest. So there is absolutely no grounds to ban them from a power standpoint unless you also ban the Big Five, Sorcerers, Favored Souls, and various other such classes that are on the same or higher level. And if you do all that, you're likely going to have to reconfigure the whole system to deal with the fact that you've just removed most of the casters, in a game where you flat out need spells to solve problems.

This is especially true for Telepaths, as [Mind Affecting] is one of the most common immune tags in the game.

Big Five? What does this title refer to?

Edit: Thanks for the reply.

Advocate
2009-02-23, 06:07 PM
Big Five - the best five classes in the game, three of which are core.

Specifically, Artificer, Archivist, Cleric, Druid, Wizard. They all rank about the same power wise, because they all end up casting each other's spells to at least some extent anyways.

Waspinator
2009-02-24, 03:22 AM
Soulknives still suck. There is a Psychic Warrior ACF on one of the Mind's Eye articles that basically makes them Soulknives for one feat.

Funny thing? Getting an entire class worth of abilities for a single feat actually came out balanced. That's how bad Soulknives are. No surprise, seeing as 'has a weapon' is a class feature of every beatstick everywhere.

Could I get a link to that?

horseboy
2009-02-24, 04:15 AM
It's probably the one area of 3.x I don't have a problem with. They're all over Conan, so you know they're fantasy approved. Just call them "Mentalists", "Lay Healers" and "Seers" or whatever.

NeoVid
2009-02-24, 04:40 AM
Big Five - the best five classes in the game, three of which are core.

Specifically, Artificer, Archivist, Cleric, Druid, Wizard. They all rank about the same power wise, because they all end up casting each other's spells to at least some extent anyways.

This recently became the Big Six, thanks to some trick with Arcane Fusion from the Spell Compendium, IIRC... the Erudite was discovered to be capable of hitting Tier 1 power by getting access to every 9th level or lower power, 8th or lower arcane spell, and 7th or lower divine spell.

Even with that said, I have to say that psionics is one of the best things ever done for 3.5, right up there with the Tome of Battle, being much more balanced, easier to play and more fun than spellcasting. I've only gotten to play in two campaigns where psionics were allowed, and they were the only times I've really had fun in 3.5.

Advocate
2009-02-24, 08:23 AM
Could I get a link to that?

*uses some google fu*

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a

Scroll down to Soulbound weapon.

Ernir
2009-02-24, 11:53 AM
In the next campaign I run, it will be Wizards that are disallowed, and Psions that will be allowed. :smalltongue: