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Zergrusheddie
2009-02-23, 02:32 AM
I understand that Polymorph is a pretty powerful spell because of all the new material that has been added. But is Polymorph the best option for a Wizard? Sure, you can turn into a Balor but what weapon are you wielding? Do you change into a Balor that has all the gear listed in the Monster Manual; and if you don't what makes Polymorph so powerful (aside from SU and EX abilities) if you are just a Wizard in melee with a bigger Strength?

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

Optimystik
2009-02-23, 03:05 AM
I understand that Polymorph is a pretty powerful spell because of all the new material that has been added. But is Polymorph the best option for a Wizard? Sure, you can turn into a Balor but what weapon are you wielding? Do you change into a Balor that has all the gear listed in the Monster Manual; and if you don't what makes Polymorph so powerful (aside from SU and EX abilities) if you are just a Wizard in melee with a bigger Strength?

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

Actually, Polymorph only gives you extraordinary abilities - for supernaturals you need the 9th-level spell Shapechange.

Anyway, what makes the spell broken is that you keep your mental stats and even your spellcasting ability (provided you change into something that can use verbal and somatic components.) So you can turn into something with wings (wing flight is usually extraordinary), much better physical stats and superior AC to your scrawny, robe-wearing bookworm self and cast all the spells you could before with impunity.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-23, 05:55 AM
Anyway, what makes the spell broken is that you keep your mental stats and even your spellcasting ability (provided you change into something that can use verbal and somatic components.) So you can turn into something with wings (wing flight is usually extraordinary), much better physical stats and superior AC to your scrawny, robe-wearing bookworm self and cast all the spells you could before with impunity.

So it's not so much that Polymorph/Shapechange make you, as the great Belkar would say, a Sexy Shoeless God of War in melee it's that it makes you nasty in melee as well as allowing you to maintain all your spells?

Do any of the abilities that let you change form (Planar Shepherd's Wildshape, Polymorph, etc.) make you more effective in combat than a Fighter would be? I don't mean with melee and spells, I just mean cast [Insert Change Form Spell Here] and wade into melee with slam attacks and the like.

Thanks for all the help.
-Eddie

Saph
2009-02-23, 06:12 AM
Barring extreme cheese, polymorph still doesn't make Wizards good melee fighters for the simple reason that the one thing it doesn't change is their HP. A 7th-level Wizard with 30 HP is still not going to be able to tank enemies no matter what form he's in.

But casting polymorph on yourself isn't the most effective use of it anyway. What makes polymorph really broken is the fact that you can cast it on someone else. This opens up all kinds of ridiculous combos, like turning the Rogue into a Hydra and having him move around behind an enemy to flank it and then sneak attack it seven times as a standard action.

- Saph

Sir Giacomo
2009-02-23, 03:30 PM
I would go even further than Saph about the lack of combat usefulness of polymorph for the wizard:

- BAB does not change
- the wizard hardly has any combat feats
- you only gain extraordinary attack abilities
- the form you choose is capped at 15HD, and outsiders is not among them (so no balor possible; only with being an outsider yourself/otherworldly feat, or later for shapechange - and even then ONLY in case you are "familiar" with balors. Good luck there...:smallbiggrin:)
- you btw also lose your own racial abilities (for a human, that's a feat, plus 1 skill point/lvl - watch out for any problems...)
- sometimes your form has no ability to speak (animals?), or hand digits for somatic components, in case of which you cannot cast without still or silent spell feats.

The biggest uses of the polymorph spell for wizards:
- get flight, or water breathing and/or swimming and/or fast movement (so basically, it is very flexible for movement and different environment)
- the high DEX, high natural AC forms are great for defense in combat -but watch out for the problems set out above
- moreover, polymorph is a great buff -but more for the noncasters. (not all DMs will allow the hydra sneak attack trick, though...).

- Giacomo

Starbuck_II
2009-02-23, 03:39 PM
I thought the best use of Poymorph was into a Cloaker: you gain moans (extraordinary attacks) that emulate spells (at will spells).
Like Hold Monster, for instance...

And you can fly.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-24, 01:20 PM
As others have said, the issue isn't changing the Wizard into a Balor. It's changing the Wizard into a Dwarven Ancestor for +15 NA or the Archer Rogue into an Arrow Demon.

Yukitsu
2009-02-24, 01:28 PM
I use it to make myself blasted hard to hit. Natural AC, high dexterity and physical saves, and usually a smaller, less conspicuous size. Wading into combat is generally for fools.

Draz74
2009-02-24, 01:39 PM
- you btw also lose your own racial abilities (for a human, that's a feat, plus 1 skill point/lvl - watch out for any problems...)

(Unless I'm totally missing a rule somewhere) ... This is only true if a human's bonus feat and skill points are ruled to be an "extraordinary special attack or quality." AFAIK, whether this is true is nowhere defined clearly in the rules.

I doubt most DMs would actually make a polymorphed human lose these things (I wouldn't), partly because they seem to be more of a mental quality than a physical quality, and partly because the bookkeeping involved just sucks.

monty
2009-02-24, 01:48 PM
(Unless I'm totally missing a rule somewhere) ... This is only true if a human's bonus feat and skill points are ruled to be an "extraordinary special attack or quality." AFAIK, whether this is true is nowhere defined clearly in the rules.

I doubt most DMs would actually make a polymorphed human lose these things (I wouldn't), partly because they seem to be more of a mental quality than a physical quality, and partly because the bookkeeping involved just sucks.

Also, wouldn't that arguably allow you to reassign the feat and points every time you changed back? Hello, flexibility!

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-02-24, 02:00 PM
(Unless I'm totally missing a rule somewhere) ... This is only true if a human's bonus feat and skill points are ruled to be an "extraordinary special attack or quality." AFAIK, whether this is true is nowhere defined clearly in the rules.

I doubt most DMs would actually make a polymorphed human lose these things (I wouldn't), partly because they seem to be more of a mental quality than a physical quality, and partly because the bookkeeping involved just sucks.

besides, that would mean polymorphing into a human would make you gain a feat(but not skill points, those aren't gained retroactively) which would be weird as well and possibly abusable with poly any object(I'd have to check).

Kantur
2009-02-24, 02:01 PM
Also, wouldn't that arguably allow you to reassign the feat and points every time you changed back? Hello, flexibility!

I suspect it'd be treated like having Power Attack and your strength dropped to 12 - you still have it, you just can't use it until you qualify again. (I.e. Strength goes back above 12 for PA, or become human again for the feat and skill points)

But at this point, it's already the DMs decision to make you lose that feat and skill points, so it's their decision whether you lose access to them or get to pick new ones when you become human again.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-24, 02:39 PM
besides, that would mean polymorphing into a human would make you gain a feat(but not skill points, those aren't gained retroactively) which would be weird as well and possibly abusable with poly any object(I'd have to check).

Why is there any argument? Yes, Alterself and Polymorph grant racial feats and/or remove prior racial feats.

Just because Humans are weird doesn't mean you should ban them or change the rules to spite them. :smallcool:

Shademan
2009-02-24, 03:49 PM
why not just pull rank on the offending wizard and say "Ok, you polymorph to a drugbat? lets see... here they are! on page fourtyflem in the monsterish manual!"
let them turn into the monster as they are described, without any other fancy abilities or whatnot. does that balance it a bit?

Starbuck_II
2009-02-24, 04:57 PM
why not just pull rank on the offending wizard and say "Ok, you polymorph to a drugbat? lets see... here they are! on page fourtyflem in the monsterish manual!"
let them turn into the monster as they are described, without any other fancy abilities or whatnot. does that balance it a bit?

Wait, so you sugget Polymorph is used similar to Polymoroh subschool, but without any of the monster powers.

Why would anyone even use it then?

If you don't grant the fancy abilities: then that means turning into bird does'nt let you fly... a little lame.

Siosilvar
2009-02-24, 05:01 PM
Wait, so you sugget Polymorph is used similar to Polymoroh subschool, but without any of the monster powers.

Why would anyone even use it then?

If you don't grant the fancy abilities: then that means turning into bird does'nt let you fly... a little lame.

I think the fancy abilities he's referring to are your spellcasting and items.

Crow
2009-02-24, 11:21 PM
It also helps a little to make the wizard make the relevant knowledge check to recall specific abilities of creatures and such. If they can't make the DC10+HD knowledge check, I don't let them turn into that monster.

Hell since it actually says n the rules you need to make a check to recall useful bits of knowledge about a specific monster, I don't see why people don't enforce this more often. It won't solve every problem for wizards who put points into every knowledge skill, but it certainly cuts down on the abuse.

TSED
2009-02-24, 11:27 PM
Why is it so powerful?


One single spell lets you:
1) Get-out-of-jail-free buff
2) Major damage potential buff (if used on melee or etc.)
3) Save or lose on opponents


That's one spell. One spell memorized lets you do what you need, when you need it.

How isn't that powerful?

Urthdigger
2009-02-25, 07:44 AM
Why is it so powerful?


One single spell lets you:
1) Get-out-of-jail-free buff
2) Major damage potential buff (if used on melee or etc.)
3) Save or lose on opponents


That's one spell. One spell memorized lets you do what you need, when you need it.

How isn't that powerful?

Technically that's two spells. The "save or lose" is Baleful Polymorph, regular Polymorph doesn't let you cast on unwilling subjects.

Aquillion
2009-02-25, 07:55 AM
In general, yeah... Polymorph's power isn't in one specific trick or application, but in its absurd versatility. It can get either you or your buddy most of the stats, non-magical attacks, and EX abilities from a really, really broad list of possible options. It can grant you movement types, hugely effective defensive boosts, disguises of all sorts, bonuses to many different skills, plus even stranger stuff... you name it. Or you can cast it on your buddy and give them a huge number of attacks.

It's one of the game's best utility spells and best buffing spells in one.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-25, 08:21 AM
Why is there any argument? Yes, Alterself and Polymorph grant racial feats and/or remove prior racial feats.

Just because Humans are weird doesn't mean you should ban them or change the rules to spite them. :smallcool:
Perhaps, but that level of a Flexible Feat gets annoyingly strong ... and what happens after the polymorph expires if a Wizard Polymorphs into a human, uses the free feat for metamagic, then prepares a blank spell slot with a metamagic'd spell?

Really, though, the Polymorph line isn't balanced as-is (and I strongly suspect most in this thread would agree with that statement, at least). The Giant Tried (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html) to make a homebrew fix, but ended up simply breaking it differently (a Weapon Finess Rogue turned Hydra doesn't lose his Dex bonus to attack, and now has lots of attacks to sneak attack with - no particular improvement over the existing situation, and is worse in some ways).

To my knowledge, there's three basic approaches by which one could balance polymorphic magic:

1) Limited Forms:
Perhaps each spell turns you into a specific creature - if you need a different creature, you need to learn another spell. Perhaps each spell has a short list of specific creatures (as the Summon Monster line). Either way, though, once you've got the creatures available down to a fairly short list, you can balance the spell line based on the abilities of those creatures, and exactly what turning into each one grants.
2) Variant Summoning:
When you turn into a monster, you turn into that monster (minus a few problematic abilities); you're no longer yourself - you don't have your buffs, you lose your class abilities, and so on. The Wizard who turns into a Nymph loses the ability to cast Arcane Spells (but does not gain the ability to cast Divine spells), the Rogue turned into a Hydra loses the ability to Sneak Attack, and so on. Take the various Polymorph spells as they currently exist, strip away all racial features, class features, active spells, and magic items of the target first, and change them from being controlled by Hit Dice to being governed by CR (target CR -1 (max CR 5) for Alter Self; target CR -2 (max CR 10) for Polymorph; Target CR -3 (max CR 15) for Polymorph Any Object; Target CR -4 (max CR 20) for Shapechange). Once you do that, the Combinatorial Explosion goes away (you're not a spellcasting Choker, just a regular Choker), and you can balance based on the CR of the creature.
3) Mostly Illusion:
Polymorph doesn't turn you into a creature - it makes you look like a creature, and gives you some number of selectable buffs from a list governed by the spell used. E.g., Alter Self might let you select one of:
a) +2 Enhancement to one statistic
b) Fly 40 (poor)
c) Climb-20
d) Swim-20 (and water breathing)
e) +3 Natural Armor
f) One Natural Attack: Claw 1d6, Bite 1d6, or Slam 1d6

Aquillion
2009-02-25, 09:18 AM
I had a fairly simple suggestion based on that variant before:

First. You can only turn into creatures that are available as a player race, unless you have DM permission otherwise. (That is, you can only turn into ones with an LA.)

Second, Polymorph replaces all your abilities with those of the new creature. Not only that, but any spells on yourself that you cast personally 'go away' for the duration (and come back when it ends, if they haven't expired -- this still counts against their duration.) You do, however, keep any items that are usable in your new form.

Third, the change cannot increase your ECL. To turn into a creature, its LA + HD must be equal to or less than your normal ECL. Basically, Polymorph turns you into something you could be already, if you'd built your character that way (but with no class levels, skills, or feats; the versatility makes up for this.)

Relying on LA is helpful because most 'broken' things that have problematic abilities are banned as player races, and since LA is generally a more useful gauge of a creature's actual power than its HD. But since tying it to LA is fairly restrictive and eliminates a lot of classic forms, an option to add to the above is to additionally allow any monster that can be summoned by the Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster lines; treat them as ECL of the level of the spell needed to summon them * 2, minus one. The reasoning behind this should be obvious (if you can summon it, there's no reason not to let you turn into it.) Any other monster that can be summoned by an equivalent cost-free spell (ie not Gate or Planar Ally or anything like that, which have additional costs) could be worked in the same way.

This should eliminate most of the problematic things, while keeping the versatility that makes the spell so interesting.

Within these limits, it might also be possible to allow Polymorph to let you access supernatural or spell-like abilities, since the LA/summoning requirement should keep you from getting anything too broken or out-of-line. However, this should be judged on a case by case basis.