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kalt
2009-02-23, 03:09 PM
Well something happened last session that I didn't see coming. The DM actually told me to play a stronger character. The dread necromancer just hit 8th level and lets say his animated storm giants do some work. I'd like to try out an arcane blaster I suppose. Now I'm aware this isn't the best way to go, but all splat books are allowed so I figure even an evoker can be decent. The big downsides I see though is that the main enemies are drow and demons...(so SR out the wazoo). So I could use some help coming up with an optimized blaster build. I'd figure Incantatrix would be in there more than likely then it gets a little hazy. So is there a prototypical solid blaster build anyone has? I appreciate the help in advance. Ohh rest of the part (Dread Necromancer, VoP Githzerai monk, cleric/inquisitor/RSOP). We are already level 8 and this will go to 21. I appreciate the help in advance

valadil
2009-02-23, 03:21 PM
The orb spells from Complete Mage bypass SR. I'd look into those. They're the standard damage spell for batman types who don't blast but need one damage spell just in case. I'm also fond of Melf's Unicorn Arrow from PHB2.

Incantatrix is amazing if your GM allows it.

kalt
2009-02-23, 03:30 PM
Ahh sorry for not being a bit more clear. I'm aware of the conjuration spells I'm just not really looking into playing batman, I've played many very effectively, but would like to try the suboptimal blaster albeit an optimized arcane blaster.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-23, 03:36 PM
Actually, I'd suggest Warlock for all your unlimited times per day blasting needs. With the Vitriolic Blast invocation, all your blasts can be done with a distinct lack of SR. You can pick up invocations to further alter how your blast is used. Normally, it's a RTA with no save, but you can make it a Chain, a Cone, a PBAE (Point Blank Area Effect centered on Caster), or with Eldritch Glaive, it turns into a weapon that hits for your full iteration of attacks as touch attacks.

You can also load up effects into it like Noxious Blast, which is Fort Save or be Nauseated, or Utterdark Blast for stacking on two negative levels on each target.

Furthermore, you get other invocations that are pretty handy. Charm Monster, Fly, Bestow Curse, Invisibility... all as at-will Spell-Like Abilities. Flee The Scene is a DimDoor that leaves an illusionary double behind to further fool opponents. Chilling Tentacles is a good way to keep the Drow from using their Levitate abilities and dishes out some Cold damage as well. Keeps casters from casting, as they are grappled. Devour Magic is good at stripping buffs.

Best of all? You don't need to worry about how many more times you can pull it off. You don't need to lug around eight different books from which you got your spells. It's quick, simple, easy to level, and does a lot of blasting.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-23, 03:39 PM
If you want to play a blaster, Sorcerer is the best way to go, why? Wings of Flurry from Races of the Dragon is one best spells for dealing damage. And if you start at level 8, you'll be having it to begin with. I'll have to agree with Valadil as well, Incantatrix is an awesome prestige class, if your DM allows further cheese, the Dragonwrought Kobold feat will allow you to take the Greater Dragon Rite (from the Web Enhancement) which will increase your sorcerer level by 1 (thus making your spell progression as fast as a Wizards).

kalt
2009-02-23, 03:50 PM
Ohh that sounds fun sure why not. So yes I guess I'll make him a dragonwraught kobold. Incantatrix is a go so I don't really have to worry about that. I'd just like to try out something a little different than my prototypical batman wizard and the DM didn't want to put up with a Malconvoker so I figure this should work.

Zaq
2009-02-23, 03:55 PM
If all you care about is getting the biggest boom, Wilders can sling around huge handfuls of dice pretty easily. There's a lot of downsides to playing a Wilder, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, but if all that matters is "how many dice can I throw at this enemy?" a Wilder is a pretty decent choice. Split Psionic Ray + Crystal Shard + Wild Surge = lots and lots of d6s that hit on a touch attack. Mind Thrust does d10s instead of d6s, but allows a save and is mind-affecting. I don't think a Wilder is necessarily a very good class, but then blasting isn't generally a very good archetype, so that's kind of why. A Wilder can't do a lot else, but they can throw lots of dice around when they want to.

Overall I'd recommend the Orb line of spells, as stated above. No save and no SR means that you're pretty much guaranteed to hit, and they're easily metamagicked into truly disgusting wads of pain. While the archetypical Batman Wizard is often a Conjuration specialist, just because the Orbs are Conjuration doesn't mean you have to use all the other really good Conjuration spells. (I mean, you probably SHOULD, because they're revered for a reason, but if your heart is set on blasting and nothing else, nothing's forcing you to prepare anything else.) At lowish levels, Warmages are useful for raw damage (and, of course, nothing else) thanks to Warmage Edge, but even with the Extra Edge feat that bonus trails off significantly as you reach higher levels. (+5 or +6 damage just doesn't cut it at 12th level, you know?) Of course, aside from Edge, anything a Warmage can do a Sorcerer can do better, but it's less work for a Warmage, so they make good NPCs. Not that you're looking at NPCs, of course.

But yeah, metamagic is your best friend here. Twin, Empower, Split Ray, sometimes Maximize. It's not the best use of arcane magic, but if you're happy with dealing big booms and nothing else, that's the way to go.

Keld Denar
2009-02-23, 04:39 PM
I'd second the Warlock idea, and further toss up the idea of Dragonfire Adept. Its a really fun class and does a lot of interesting and fun things, almost all of which have damage tacked on. Check out the Dragonfire Adept Handbook on the CharOp forums for more info.

If you have your heart set on a traditional caster, I'd bump the Kobald Sorc idea. If you can use the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, you can pull off some shanananananananananananananagans. Sorcerer can also get into Incantrix with little trouble. I'm fond of taking Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath and using the various breath effect spells like Blinding Breath, Dispelling Breath and such. Pick a dragon with a Line effect like Copper or Blue/Black for the longer range. This also opens up Draconic Wings for (Ex) flight, which is quite useful even if your manevuerability is low.

Tokiko Mima
2009-02-23, 05:32 PM
If you're looking for a blaster that makes a good trickster, strongly consider pixie warlock.

I know, normally you look at that +4 LA and go 'yuck, no thanks!' but hear me out. Pixies start off with better versions of two abilities warlocks go nuts over: flight and invisibility. They have massive ability bonuses (+8 Dex, +6 Cha) and Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, meaning your Eldritch Glaive will be based on your Dexterity and not Strength so the -4 Str penalty really doesn't mean much. You also get a host of useful SLAs, including Permanent Image 1/day.

This stacks really well with your warlock abilities, making you into a fast, stealthy weapons platform with unlimited ammunition. Later on when NPCs try to use truesight to find you, you can ruin their day with a quick dispel magic invocation. They lost a spell slot, you lose only an action. You're not extremely damaging, but your Eldritch Blast is almost guaranteed to do some damage and if you force opponents to waste time looking for you then you've already put them through more hassle than most blasters ever will.

Plus, Warlock has a nice development curve. As you hit higher levels you can take feats like Quicken SLA, Maximize SLA and Empower SLA. Use them all together for a damage wave. Use them with a wand of Divine Power and a full suite of Eldritch Glaive attacks to slay anything that isn't epic or a god. :smallamused:

Douglas
2009-02-23, 05:48 PM
Uh, why are people suggesting Warlock in response to a request for a "more powerful character"? I thought it was common knowledge around here that Warlock is a weak class.

My suggestion: Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and Incantatrix. Lots of spells per day, casting as a Sorcerer one level above your character level (add Loredrake for another 2 levels if you're really feeling cheesy) so you're actually not behind Wizards on the spell level curve, and blasting doesn't require the kind of lengthy spell list a true batman Wizard needs. Take lots of metamagic feats, and plan to take Rapid Metamagic next level (I think that's when you can qualify). Reserve feats might also be worth looking into, as you can power any number of them with a single spell slot due to spontaneous casting and you can use Heighten Spell to make cantrips on your spells known list count as your highest level available for determining the feat's effect.

Though, um, is the monk getting the same request too? If not, why? VoP, Monk, and Githzerai are all weak choices.

Tokiko Mima
2009-02-23, 06:20 PM
Uh, why are people suggesting Warlock in response to a request for a "more powerful character"? I thought it was common knowledge around here that Warlock is a weak class.

....

Though, um, is the monk getting the same request too? If not, why? VoP, Monk, and Githzerai are all weak choices.

Warlock is weak if unoptimized. Any class that can deliver 1000+ points of damage in a single round 3/day can hardly be underestimated. Warlock is disappointing out of the box, but it synergizes very well in certain cases. It's very difficult to stop a dedicated warlock from hitting you and doing damage every round since there's no DR/Eldritch and the main warlock attack has several ways to ignore SR. This makes them great for blasting things with supposedly hardened defenses, because invariably Warlocks can ignore those defenses with the right invocation.

For example an invisible warlock's attack bonus is low, but the warlock has only to roll to beat 10 + Size modifier + deflection AC and receives a +2 on the roll. So a miss is vanishingly unlikely, and this lets them focus on things that make their Eldritch Blasts even better/more damaging/less resistable.

Temp.
2009-02-23, 06:47 PM
If you go Sorcerer, be aware of the PHB2's retraining section. Trading out spells known as you advance is a beautiful thing. Doing it without having to take extra Sorcerer levels is even better. Take the Metamagic Specialist class feature earlier in the book and, at level 9, take Rapid Metamagic and swap MS out for another ACF.


Also, if you don't know what to do with your spells, Evocation was the part of Treeantmonk's guide that impressed me. I can't set up a link now, but it's in the Handy Links index.

ravenkith
2009-02-23, 07:13 PM
If you are going to be a blaster, Sorceror is definitely the way to go.

Some suggestions:

Prestige classes:
Incantatrix (MOF/PGTF) 10/10 - The ultimate in metamagic abuse.
Entry: 6 (Wiz), 7 (Sorc)
Advantages: Bonus Metamagic feats, metamagic oriented class abilities
Disadvantages: 2 feats for entry (Iron Will & an MM) d4 HD, 1/2 BAB, Poor FORT & REF

Fiendblooded (Heroes of Horror) 9/10- A good, all around class that is superior to base sorceror - even more so, considering your campaigns principle antagonists.
Entry: 6th level
Advantages: Improved familiar, Bonuses to multiple stats, bonuses to resistances, bonus damage,
Disadvantages: 3 feats - Blood Calls to Blood (HOH), Eschew Materials, Education (FRCS) d4 HD, 1/2 BAB, Poor FORT & REF

Mage of the Arcane Order (CArc) 10/10- Ultimate in versatility for the Sorceror - never be without that spell you need.
Entry: 6th
Advantages: Spell Pool. Read it, know it, love it. SOme bonus metamagic.
Disadvantages: d4 HD, 1 unusable class feature, 1/2 BAB, poor FORT & REF, 2-3 Feats needed (3 if sorc: Arcane Preperation, Co-Op spell, Metamagic),

Sacred Exorcist (CDiv) 10/10- Excellent filler class, Only way for Arcanists to get turn attempts, but no DMM by raw.
Entry: 11th
Advantages: 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, TURN ATTEMPTS, Various anti evil outsider class abilities
Disadvantages: 1 Feat needed: Education (FRCS) Poor FORT & REF

Abjurant Champion (CMag) 5/5 - Excellent filler if you can get it, gives you some NEAT options, and can really increase your armor class with the right spells.
Entry: Varies by strategy
Advantages: Full BAB, d10 HD, abjuration enhancements, more
Disadvantages: Poor Fort, Poor REF, 1 Feat needed: Combat Casting BAB+5 for entry, 1 Martial Weapon Pro

Then of course, there is Archmage (DMG), primarily for the ability to change touch spells into reach and shape spells for free.

Feats:
Residual Magic (CMag)
Arcane Thesis (PHB II)
Elemental Substitution (CArc) (Sonic, if you can get it. Acid or electric if you can't).
Heighten Spell (PHB)
Persistent Spell (FRCS/PGTF?)
Sculpt Spell (CArc)
Chain Spell (CArc)
Split Ray (CArc)
Empower Spell (PHB)
Arcane Mastery (CArc)
Reach Spell (CDiv?)

Spells:
DO NOT OVERLOOK THE ORB SPELLS. NO SR/NO SAVE VS. DAMAGE = WIN.

Shivering Touch (Frostburn) 1st, etc.- A chain of spells, this has a 1st level version that deals 1d6/rd per caster level with NO SAVE, just a touch attack. It allows SR, but can be combined with:

Assay Resistance (Spell Compendium) 4th - allows you to pick out a target, and if the spell succeeds, add 10 to your cl check to overcome SR. Combine with Arcane Mastery for maximum effectiveness.

Scorching Ray (PHB) 2nd - RTA, up to four attacks, with elemental sub on the fly, quite nasty.

Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) 7th - Just insane for Sorcs. When cast, forces you to cast standard action spells as swift actions, and full round action spells as standard actions. Combined with residual metamagic and a sorceror with on-the-fly metamagic, can be utterly devastating.

Disintegrate (PHB) 6th - It's a ray. Split it, empower it, residual it the following round. Mmm, ashes to ashes...

Enervation (PHB) 4th - it's a Ray. Split it, Empower it, Residual that son of a gun. 1 7th, 1 4th = Enemy caster go bye bye.

NOTE: This is by no means an exhaustive study of the combinations available out there.


I would probably go with something like:
Strongheart Halfling
1: Sorceror 1 HF: Reach Spell CH: Arcane Preperation
2: Sorceror 2
3: Sorceror 3 CH: Cooperative Spell
4: Sorceror 4
5: Sorceror 5
6: Mage of the Arcane order 1 CH: Iron Will
7: Incantatrix 1 IF: Split Ray
8: Incantatrix 2
9: Incantatrix 3 CH: Residual Magic
10: Incantatrix 4 IF: Empower Spell
11: Incantatrix 5
12: Incantatrix 6 CH: Skill Focus:
13: Incantatrix 7 IF: Chain Spell
14: Incantatrix 8
15: Incantatrix 9 CH: Spell Focus: Evocation ?
16: Incantatrix 10 IF: ?
17: Mage of the Arcane Order 2 MF: ?
18: Mage of the Arcane Order 3 CH: Spell Focus: Transmutation ?
19: Archmage 1 HA: Arcane Reach
20: Archmage 2 HA: Mastery of Shaping

There are a number of options for 16 and 17, such as lord of the utter cold, or energy admixture. Personally for a true blaster, energy admixture is probably the way to go.

If a problem rises up, just throw damage dice at it until it goes away. Or else sub out a spell using the spell pool for 1-3 :P

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-23, 09:01 PM
Four words: Hellfire Warlock, Bind Naberous

Do you want to dish out hundreds of damage in a round? This is how you do it. You'll need a one-level dip in a Binder class, to restore Con damage from the Hellfire Warlock's abilities. There's also a neck-slot item in MIC that further increases EB damage by up to 2d6, and the Warlock's Scepter, which is a Rod that you can blow charges from to further increase EB damage.

Do you wish to be doing over 20d6 per shot, all day long? Warlock is your man. Even better, Hellfire Warlock gets around normal immunities and SR, and there are all KINDS of ways to jack up your Caster Level to render SR a moot point.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-24, 12:01 AM
Warlock is weak if unoptimized. Any class that can deliver 1000+ points of damage in a single round 3/day can hardly be underestimated. Warlock is disappointing out of the box, but it synergizes very well in certain cases. It's very difficult to stop a dedicated warlock from hitting you and doing damage every round since there's no DR/Eldritch and the main warlock attack has several ways to ignore SR. This makes them great for blasting things with supposedly hardened defenses, because invariably Warlocks can ignore those defenses with the right invocation.

For example an invisible warlock's attack bonus is low, but the warlock has only to roll to beat 10 + Size modifier + deflection AC and receives a +2 on the roll. So a miss is vanishingly unlikely, and this lets them focus on things that make their Eldritch Blasts even better/more damaging/less resistable.

Mind outlining how to get 1000+ points of damage?

I can see:

Hellfire Blast 15d6
Quicken SLA = x2
Empower SLA = x1.5

That's only 30d6x1.5 though, which is average 157.

What am I missing?

JeminiZero
2009-02-24, 12:21 AM
Mind outlining how to get 1000+ points of damage?

I can see:

Hellfire Blast 15d6
Quicken SLA = x2
Empower SLA = x1.5

That's only 30d6x1.5 though, which is average 157.

What am I missing?


The trick is that you are applying it to eldritch glaive (a least blast shape). Which lets you hit multiple times depending on your iterative attack BAB as melee touch attacks. Lets say you cast Divine Power via UMD so that your BAB is at least 16, a single eldritch glaive now attacks (and usually hits) the enemy 4x.

Beyond that it becomes subject to rules intepretation. There is debate on whether you can quicken Eldritch Glaive (so you can hit 4x as a swift action). There is also the question on whether things that grant you extra attacks (like haste) apply to eldritch glaive (so if you are hasted you can get 5 attacks). Finally, because Eldritch Glaive is a 2-hander weapon-like spell, some quarters argue that you can apply 1.5x strength bonus and double power attack damage to it (and since its a touch attacks, a high power attack bonus can be applied without jeapordizing your hit chance too badly).

Ire
2009-02-24, 12:24 AM
Go either with sorcerer (Spellscale) or Arcane Trickster.

At level 17ish my AT puts out 400 damage a round and is nearly impossible to see/find/attack without blindsense.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-24, 12:27 AM
The trick is that you are applying it to eldritch glaive (a least blast shape). Which lets you hit multiple times depending on your iterative attack BAB as melee touch attacks. Lets say you cast Divine Power via UMD so that your BAB is at least 16, a single eldritch glaive now attacks (and usually hits) the enemy 4x.

Beyond that it becomes subject to rules intepretation. There is debate on whether you can quicken Eldritch Glaive (so you can hit 4x as a swift action). There is also the question on whether things that grant you extra attacks (like haste) apply to eldritch glaive (so if you are hasted you can get 5 attacks). Finally, because Eldritch Glaive is a 2-hander weapon-like spell, some quarters argue that you can apply 1.5x strength bonus and double power attack damage to it (and since its a touch attacks, a high power attack bonus can be applied without jeapordizing your hit chance too badly).Right now, somewhere in the world, an Evoker is crying.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-24, 12:32 AM
What was your old character, maybe there's a way to fix him without having to roll a new one.

It's probably not what you're looking for, but an Illusionist/ Shadowcraft Mage makes a superb spontaneous blaster. Throw around a Shadow Evocation or Conjuration of whatever damage spell you need at the time, with a significantly higher caster level and DC than the non-shadow version. If you can qualify early via Earth Spell then you can start out with Shadow Illusion at level 8, otherwise you'd be best off going Illusionist 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage 1 from the start.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-02-24, 12:32 AM
Ahh sorry for not being a bit more clear. I'm aware of the conjuration spells I'm just not really looking into playing batman, I've played many very effectively, but would like to try the suboptimal blaster albeit an optimized arcane blaster.I understand that you don't want to play the battlefield control/buff/debuff style arcanist, but orb spells are no-save, no-SR blasts. Preparing at least a few of them fits perfectly into a blaster concept and solves your SR problem. That doesn't mean that, with Incantatrix, you won't be chucking around empowered explosive maximized yadda yadda sonic balls from 0 level spell slots most of the time, but for those times that you need to hurt Mr. High SR you'll really want those orbs.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-24, 03:14 AM
Mind outlining how to get 1000+ points of damage?

I can see:

Hellfire Blast 15d6
Quicken SLA = x2
Empower SLA = x1.5

That's only 30d6x1.5 though, which is average 157.

What am I missing? You're also forgetting bloodlines, the way Hellfire Warlock is worded, you'd end up getting +12d6 in total for a maximum of 21d6.

Quicken Empowered Vitriolic Hellfire Blast = 21d6 ~ 73.5
Full-Round Attack Empowered Hellfire Vitriolic Eldritch Glaive (with Divine Power) = 4x 21d6x1.5 = 441.
Total = 514 dmg per round. Not too shabby.

NeoVid
2009-02-24, 03:45 AM
Four words: Hellfire Warlock, Bind Naberous

Do you want to dish out hundreds of damage in a round? This is how you do it. You'll need a one-level dip in a Binder class, to restore Con damage from the Hellfire Warlock's abilities.

You can pull this same dirty trick by burning a feat instead of a level, taking the Incarnum ability Strongheart Vest, which lets you reduce all Con damage you take by one.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-24, 04:37 AM
You can pull this same dirty trick by burning a feat instead of a level, taking the Incarnum ability Strongheart Vest, which lets you reduce all Con damage you take by one.

Doesn't work. If you have any way around the Con damage the ability won't activate. You have to take the Con damage. Healing it is therefore the only way out.

Drascin
2009-02-24, 04:57 AM
You want simple and fun blasting without worry about optimization, you want Psionics. I'm not kidding here. With the ability to modulate your damage and element on a whim, it's far more entertaining and efficient, and lets you blast as well as a dedicated sorcerer with only a handful of powers, letting you actually have some left for whatever the hell else you want.

And if your DM allows you to use third party material, you have the Energist as a prestige class. Mix-and-matching energy types is always fun (so I can mix heat and electricity and throw blasts of plasma? I don't think physics work that way, but I absolutely don't care!)

NeoVid
2009-02-24, 05:12 AM
Doesn't work. If you have any way around the Con damage the ability won't activate. You have to take the Con damage. Healing it is therefore the only way out.

Damn. I thought the Hellfire abilities were only shut down by being immune to Con damage, or having no Con score.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-24, 05:38 AM
Damn. I thought the Hellfire abilities were only shut down by being immune to Con damage, or having no Con score. Actually you are correct, Hellfireblast states that if you are immune to Con damage or have no Con score it's impossible.

Whether or not Strongheart Vestment is something that is allowed to reduce the damage is something we can argue until were blue and purple in our heads, but fact of the matter is that it's a DM's call.

kalt
2009-02-24, 09:19 AM
Actually you are correct, Hellfireblast states that if you are immune to Con damage or have no Con score it's impossible.

Whether or not Strongheart Vestment is something that is allowed to reduce the damage is something we can argue until were blue and purple in our heads, but fact of the matter is that it's a DM's call.

to this just pick up a level of binder bind nerberus, who heals one point of con damage a round and profit. Ohh someone already pointed it out...I'm not sure how this can be ruled against because you aren't preventing the damage just merely healing it every round.

kalt
2009-02-24, 09:31 AM
would probably go with something like:
Strongheart Halfling
1: Sorceror 1 HF: Reach Spell CH: Arcane Preperation
2: Sorceror 2
3: Sorceror 3 CH: Cooperative Spell
4: Sorceror 4
5: Sorceror 5
6: Mage of the Arcane order 1 CH: Iron Will
7: Incantatrix 1 IF: Split Ray
8: Incantatrix 2
9: Incantatrix 3 CH: Residual Magic
10: Incantatrix 4 IF: Empower Spell
11: Incantatrix 5
12: Incantatrix 6 CH: Skill Focus:
13: Incantatrix 7 IF: Chain Spell
14: Incantatrix 8
15: Incantatrix 9 CH: Spell Focus: Evocation ?
16: Incantatrix 10 IF: ?
17: Mage of the Arcane Order 2 MF: ?
18: Mage of the Arcane Order 3 CH: Spell Focus: Transmutation ?
19: Archmage 1 HA: Arcane Reach
20: Archmage 2 HA: Mastery of Shaping

I really appreciate this build thank you very much. One thing that I think will really help out for this build is a wand of true casting (Complete Mage I believe). The warlock idea was good, but I think I still might need atleast a little versatility since the only people with a somewhat decent spell list will be myself and the cleric. I'm not familiar with the feat arcane preparation what does that do? The idea of spell pool is great and I will most certainly go with that for the cost of cooperative spell. This is actually a pathfinder campaign so I will have a sorceror bloodline to add on to that so all should be good.

Douglas
2009-02-24, 09:49 AM
Arcane Preparation lets you prepare spells like a wizard does. The spell still has to come from your spells known, not a spellbook, and it loses the spontaneous flexibility of normal Sorcerer casting, but if you prepare a metamagiced spell it will ignore the casting time increase of spontaneous metamagic. It also allows a Sorcerer to satisfy the specific prerequisite of Mage of the Arcane Order of the ability to prepare and cast X level spells.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-24, 09:53 AM
Don't spend a feat on Iron Will, visit the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel instead.

Tokiko Mima
2009-02-24, 11:04 AM
Mind outlining how to get 1000+ points of damage?

I can see:

Hellfire Blast 15d6
Quicken SLA = x2
Empower SLA = x1.5

That's only 30d6x1.5 though, which is average 157.

What am I missing?

The key to maximizing your Eldritch Blast damage is action abuse, where you put as many actions as you can into a single round.

You're missing two important factors in your analysis: Maximize SLA and Eldritch Glaive. Eldritch Glaive also requires a wand of Divine Power to achieve maximum effect. also, a warlock can be assumed to have a Greater Chausible of Fell Power at 20th level (or much earlier, as it's one of the best warlock items out there.)

Assume a 20th level Hellfire Warlock, with a Hellfire Blast rated at 9d6 E.B. + 6d6 Hellfire + 2d6 from a Greater Chasuble of Fell Power for a total of 17d6 (~59.5 damage.) You can optimize this further, but I don't want to cloud the issue.

Now, a Hellfire Blast with Maximize and Empower applied and this damage shoots to (17 * 6 =) 102 + (.5 * 17d6) or ~131.75 base.

With a Glaive and Divine Power up I can take that damage and do it four times. So now we're looking at ~527 base. But wait! I haven't Quickened it yet!

It doesn't really matter that Eldritch Glaive is a full round action because the text assumes that SLA's are always standard actions. So according to RAW, in this case I can compress a full-round action into a swift action with Quicken SLA. If I want to burn another of the three daily uses of Maximize and Empower SLA I could simply double the damage, but I find in practice it's better to hold off on that. You're usually at the point of overkill anyway. ~765 is more than enough to finish off anything that isn't a tarrasque, anyway. ~1054 damage is flashy, sure, but there's something to be said for saving your power for emergencies.

Oh, and before anyone reads me what it says about 1/round Empower SLA in their copy of MM1, be aware that that text was updated and removed to incorporate the concept of swift/immediate actions in MM3. :smallwink:

P.S. I don't want anyone to look at this and come away with the impression that Eldritch Glaive is overpowered. A warlock can do similar amounts of total damage with Eldritch Chain as a standard action at range, or even more with an area Blast Shape invocation. The only difference is that Glaive lets the warlock focus all their damage on a single target, whereas most other invocations force you to spread it out and mask how much damage the warlock actually does.

ravenkith
2009-02-24, 04:20 PM
Isn't the feat from otyugh hole temporary? as in, lose it, lose all access to the incantatrix class abilities? :smalleek:

Douglas
2009-02-24, 04:23 PM
Isn't the feat from otyugh hole temporary? as in, lose it, lose all access to the incantatrix class abilities? :smalleek:
No, that one's permanent. Some of the locations do give feats for a limited time or limited number of uses, but this particular one is forever.

kalt
2009-02-24, 04:49 PM
Thanks for the help so far I really appreciate it. I think one of the bloodlines(that you choose when you pick sorceror) in the pathfinder book allows you to ignore the spellcasting additional time with metamagic as well. If I don't go the Mage of the Arcane order route what would you recommend swapping in for those levels instead?

ravenkith
2009-02-24, 04:49 PM
No, that one's permanent. Some of the locations do give feats for a limited time or limited number of uses, but this particular one is forever.

Well, in that case, if you can talk your dm into it, by all means.

kalt
2009-02-24, 04:51 PM
also I suppose that would free up the cooperative spell feet as well. I'm not saying this idea is bad I'm just saying if I already have a workaround for the metamagic part is it still worth going into the mage of the arcane order(ie is spell pool really worth that much more in an actual game as opposed to on paper where versatility really is the end all be all?)

ravenkith
2009-02-24, 05:06 PM
Versatility, for a sorceror, is VERY important. Fortunately, most utility spells are within the first three levels of spells. Flight, Invisibility, spider climb, all are examples of spells that are very good, and can be easily gained on an as-needed basis through MOTAO, as opposed to taking up a spells known slot all the time.

As far as the bloodlines go, make sure you read up on Arcane Spellsurge: One of the STRENGTHS of the build I created for you is that it can use this spell to get off two spells per round WITHOUT using quicken spell metamagic.

Arcane spell surge takes a spell that costs a standard action to cast and makes it a swift action. It also takes a full round spell and makes it a standard action.

With arcane preparation, you can cast a spell prepared with metamagic as a swift action, then one spontaneously cast with metamagic as a standard action.

With Residual magic (Lingering Metamagic), this becomes very, very nasty.

1 swift action - a prepared enervation, empowered (+1), Split ray (+2) (7th level spell)

1 standard action - a spontaneous enervation, chained (+4) (8th level spell)

Move action

FOLLOWING ROUND:

Swift Action: A spontaneous enervation that has the effects of split, empowered and chained, at a +0 cost, for the low, low price of a 4th level spell....

sub in lower level rays as you please....just used enervation as an example.

Douglas
2009-02-24, 05:14 PM
If you're careful about spell selection you should usually be able to handle things normally without the spellpool.

At least one more level of Archmage for Mastery of Elements would be extremely valuable to a blaster.

This might be taking things a little too far, I'm not sure exactly how powerful a blaster your DM is expecting, but being a kobold opens up some very unique and powerful options for a Sorcerer. Specifically, the Dragonwrought feat negates aging penalties IIRC, effectively giving you +3 to all mental stats for free, and you can spend another feat and a little money on the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) which gives you an extra level of Sorcerer casting. The Dragonwrought feat also makes you eligible for the Loredrake template, which adds another two levels of Sorcerer casting. If you use both, that means you are casting as a Sorcerer three levels higher than your actual level.

kalt
2009-02-24, 10:32 PM
okay so I made a spell list up and here is what I've got for an 8th level sorceror. I'm really used to a wizard and am having some serious problems over knowing so little!

Level 1: Neverskitter, Benign Transportation, Mage Armor, True Strike, Grease
Level 2: Mirror Image, Seeking Ray, Cloud of Bewilderment
Level 3: Haste, Fly
Level 4: Enervation

I figure the seeking ray can help the enervation rays hit and with the build that I guess I'm going with could make for a fun time since I already have split ray. I'm up in the air about scorching ray since fire is such a common resistance.

Note: This is powers known not spells per day.

Myrmex
2009-02-24, 10:39 PM
Swap mage armor out for something else, maybe shield? You're only going to cast mage armor once a day; do you really want it taking up a known spell?

Douglas
2009-02-24, 10:41 PM
That's, um, not exactly a blaster build. Where are the blasting spells? This looks more like an attempt to make a batman sorcerer. Not bad, certainly, and you will be effective with that spell list, but it doesn't fit your stated goal of a blaster.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-24, 10:43 PM
okay so I made a spell list up and here is what I've got for an 8th level sorceror. I'm really used to a wizard and am having some serious problems over knowing so little!

Level 1: Neverskitter, Benign Transportation, Mage Armor, True Strike, Grease
Level 2: Mirror Image, Seeking Ray, Cloud of Bewilderment
Level 3: Haste, Fly
Level 4: Enervation

I figure the seeking ray can help the enervation rays hit and with the build that I guess I'm going with could make for a fun time since I already have split ray. I'm up in the air about scorching ray since fire is such a common resistance.

Note: This is powers known not spells per day.

Scorching Ray is high damage potential, but yes, resistances suck because it is split up into multiple rays, so resistance checks multiple times. Melf's Acid Arrow ignores SR, but is only 2d6, and while damage lingers, they won't be alive long enough for it to matter. Personally, I don't bother with either one, but I tend to shy away from blasters.

I would suggest, instead of Cloud of Bewilderment, grab Glitterdust. It's an extremely useful spell that does bad things to bad people. It's a Will save that is NOT mind-affecting (the only other one I can think of off hand is Slow). Even if they make their save, invisible creatures are still clearly outlined for your beatstick to lay the smash down.

Myrmex
2009-02-24, 11:51 PM
I second glitterdust. The -40 to hide checks is also brutal.

Keld Denar
2009-02-25, 12:07 AM
I would suggest, instead of Cloud of Bewilderment, grab Glitterdust. It's an extremely useful spell that does bad things to bad people. It's a Will save that is NOT mind-affecting (the only other one I can think of off hand is Slow). Even if they make their save, invisible creatures are still clearly outlined for your beatstick to lay the smash down.

Unluck is also a non-[Mind Affecting]...but Unluck is bad...

ravenkith
2009-02-25, 01:59 AM
To be honest, you probably need at least 1 blasty spell per level.

If you are focused on doing damage, you'd BETTER be able to actually DO some.

You absolutely must have at least 1 first level ray spell, such as Ray of Flame.

Why? Because in order to get something out of the metamagic feats you have picked, you have to be able to USE them.

A ray of flame can be metamagicked from 1st to 4th by empowering and splitting it, and you can do 10d6*1.5 damage to up to two targets with one spell.

or you can just empower it, to second level, or split it, to third.

You should definitely have at least one AOE (Fireball is good). Throwing empower on that gets nasty as well.

Dump grease, seeking ray, and fly in favor of Ray of Flame(spell compendium), Glitterdust, and Fireball.

Why? Glitterdust is specifically superior to (and replicates the function of) grease.

Ray of flame gives you something to use your metamagic on, since grease is redundant.

Seeking ray doesn't matter if you have nothing to hit WITH.

Fireball is a crowd pleaser, even more so empowered. It takes out a ton of enemies, and if you are up a bunch of rogues, switch to rays.

Fly? You think you'll be casting it EVERY fight? Fly is great and all, but it's pretty situational - you ought to have enough warning to be able to spellpool it up if needed, and you can pick up OVERLAND FLIGHT as a 4th level if you want, and get it for hours/lvl at a time?

Think of the spells on your known list as spells you can cast spontaneously, the way clerics do with heals. or as things that you know you are going to need ALL the time, or at the drop of a hat.

For example: Is mage armor something you will cast four times a day? If you are going to cast it once or twice a day, are you going to need it in a hurry, or cast it once in the morning and just let the duration run? This kind of spell is EXACTLY what the spell pool is for.

Don't mirror image and glitterdust seem to duplicate function? Two things that make it hard to see and hit ya...duplication is BAD.

Haste? A good spell, sure...but Really? Are you a buffer? Is that what you are? or are you someone who is going to use magic to kill people? Think about picking up manyjaws (spell compendium)

LASTLY, if you reach spell a touch spell , it becomes a ray.

SEE SHIVERING TOUCH line of spells, in the FROSTBURN handbook.
Shivering touch lesser is a touch spell that deals 1d6 dex damage for 1rd/lvl

Dump reach spell on it (+2) and Empower it (+1), and as a 4th level spell, you are dealing 8d6 dex damage * 1.5!

Now finger in what happens if you split ray it. It's DEX DAMAGE, not a penalty, so both rays can target the same critter.

Once you get 5th level spells, you can cast the spell as reach/split, and do up to 20d6 dex damage to any creature.

High enough levels (7th), and you can reach/chain it. and either empower it for an 8th level, or SPLIT it for a 9th level spell.

This is a hellacious amount of debuffs going walkies.

Remember to combine with Residual Magic (Lingering Metamagic) for maximum abuse.

Temp.
2009-02-25, 03:12 AM
What douglas said. There's no damage potential here and damage output is a blaster's schtick.

Not that filling the primary arcanist role is a bad plan. Looking at the party, it's probably a pretty good idea.

It's just that the Magic Missile/Fireball Sorcerer is going to do a better job as a blaster than this. If you want to be the one who applies the hurt to things, pick some damaging spells -- Defenestrating Sphere, Lesser Orb of Sound, Frost Breath and Magic Missile would cover your bases. Maybe Ray of Flame, too, for splitting. And the Energy Sub (Acid) feat never hurt a damage-dealer.

kalt
2009-02-25, 08:00 AM
okay spell list attempt number 2 =)

Level 1: Neverskitter, Benign Transportation, Shivering Touch, True Strike, Ray of Flame
Level 2: Mirror Image, Ray of Ice, Glitterdust
Level 3: Many Jaws, Fireball
Level 4: Enervation

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-25, 10:11 AM
To be honest, you probably need at least 1 blasty spell per level.

If you are focused on doing damage, you'd BETTER be able to actually DO some.

You absolutely must have at least 1 first level ray spell, such as Ray of Flame.

Why? Because in order to get something out of the metamagic feats you have picked, you have to be able to USE them.

A ray of flame can be metamagicked from 1st to 4th by empowering and splitting it, and you can do 10d6*1.5 damage to up to two targets with one spell.

or you can just empower it, to second level, or split it, to third.

You should definitely have at least one AOE (Fireball is good). Throwing empower on that gets nasty as well.

Dump grease, seeking ray, and fly in favor of Ray of Flame(spell compendium), Glitterdust, and Fireball. Fire, and more Fire... better hope you don't run into any fire resistant opponents... yanno... like half the Monster Manual?


Why? Glitterdust is specifically superior to (and replicates the function of) grease. I disagree. Glitterdust targets Will, Grease targets Reflex (or Balance). Multiple resistance targeting is a GOOD thing.


Ray of flame gives you something to use your metamagic on, since grease is redundant. Ray of Enfeeblement does too, and will hardcore nerf meatshield opponents, particularly when paired with Ray of Exhaustion


Seeking ray doesn't matter if you have nothing to hit WITH. Enervation is not 'nothing'...


Fireball is a crowd pleaser, even more so empowered. It takes out a ton of enemies, and if you are up a bunch of rogues, switch to rays. And if you are up against a bunch of fire-resistant enemies... cower?


Fly? You think you'll be casting it EVERY fight? Fly is great and all, but it's pretty situational - you ought to have enough warning to be able to spellpool it up if needed, and you can pick up OVERLAND FLIGHT as a 4th level if you want, and get it for hours/lvl at a time? Overland Flight is a 5th level spell, which means he won't be getting it for several more levels. Not being in reach of beatsticks = survival.


Think of the spells on your known list as spells you can cast spontaneously, the way clerics do with heals. or as things that you know you are going to need ALL the time, or at the drop of a hat.

For example: Is mage armor something you will cast four times a day? If you are going to cast it once or twice a day, are you going to need it in a hurry, or cast it once in the morning and just let the duration run? This kind of spell is EXACTLY what the spell pool is for. On this, I will agree. This is why I didn't suggest Rope Trick. You can Spell Pool Rope Trick and Mage Armor. Or just make Mage Armor obsolete with a +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt. Shield is better, particularly if you plan on going Abjurant Champion latter.


Don't mirror image and glitterdust seem to duplicate function? Two things that make it hard to see and hit ya...duplication is BAD. WRONG.
Mirror Image is like a self-only short duration version of a massively improved Displacement. In effect, you have a 1 in 8 chance of being hit with any given attack by anything that has an attack roll. This synergizes with Glitterdust, which has more utility than SoL capability. Granted, the Will Save or Blind is extremely handy, but it will also reveal invisibile opponents, which is worth the price of a spell known alone.


Haste? A good spell, sure...but Really? Are you a buffer? Is that what you are? or are you someone who is going to use magic to kill people? Think about picking up manyjaws (spell compendium) Haste will generally, over the course of combat, do far more damage than Manyjaws will. However, you may prefer to pick up Slow, which is the other Core Will Save that Isn't Mind Affecting, and will cripple beatstick opponents.


LASTLY, if you reach spell a touch spell , it becomes a ray.

SEE SHIVERING TOUCH line of spells, in the FROSTBURN handbook.
Shivering touch lesser is a touch spell that deals 1d6 dex damage for 1rd/lvl

Dump reach spell on it (+2) and Empower it (+1), and as a 4th level spell, you are dealing 8d6 dex damage * 1.5! No, you are dealing 1d6*1.5 Dex damage a round for 8 rounds. There is a big difference. If something is still alive after four rounds, there are bigger problems at hand.


Now finger in what happens if you split ray it. It's DEX DAMAGE, not a penalty, so both rays can target the same critter. Yes, this is how you kill dragons.


Once you get 5th level spells, you can cast the spell as reach/split, and do up to 20d6 dex damage to any creature. No. You will be doing d6*1.5+1d6 dex damage per round. Again, if something is alive long enough to get that kind of damage output from it, there are much bigger problems.


High enough levels (7th), and you can reach/chain it. and either empower it for an 8th level, or SPLIT it for a 9th level spell. Chaining will halve the damage, and is sub-par for this use at +3 SL. Every turn's worth of damage is halved as well. Not worth it.


This is a hellacious amount of debuffs going walkies. A single Slow spell is probably more effective at nerfing opponents. The best use for Shivering Touch is Twin-Ray Empowered against a Dragon, and hope you beat it's SR.


Remember to combine with Residual Magic (Lingering Metamagic) for maximum abuse.Again, if your opponents are still alive that long, there are more serious problems.


okay spell list attempt number 2 =)

Level 1: Neverskitter, Benign Transportation, Shivering Touch, True Strike, Ray of Flame
Level 2: Mirror Image, Ray of Ice, Glitterdust
Level 3: Many Jaws, Fireball
Level 4: Enervation
Instead of Ray of Flame, get Lesser Orb of Flame. Basically does the same thing, only ignores SR. Or better, Lesser Sonic Orb which does sonic damage that almost nothing has resistance against.

What is the damage output of Ray of Ice? I approve that you are trying to farm out your flavors, but you will likely get more milage out of Touch of Idiocy. Drops all three mental stats by 1d6, no save. Extremely handy for nerfing opponent casters, as suddenly they don't have a high enough caster stat to be able to cast the nasty spells. Abuse just like Shivering Touch.

Manyjaws is nice, but Haste (or Slow) is nicer. Trust me, you will get more millage out of making your beatstick hit harder and faster. In fact, I frequently pick up BOTH Haste AND Slow. Stinking Cloud is another Save or Loose for anything without a Fort Save From There. Dispel Magic is just useful. There are so many handy spells here, that I cannot suggest you pick up Fireball. Haste is an even bigger crowd pleaser, and lets your meatshields feel useful.

kalt
2009-02-25, 01:57 PM
Strongheart Halfling

Warlock1 Pointblank shot, precise shot
Warlock2
Warlock3 Spell Penetration
Warlock4
Warlock5
Warlock6 Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast)
Warlock7
Warlock 8
Binder1 Maximize SLA(Eldritch Blast)
HFW1
HFW2
HFW3 Empower SLA (Eldritch Blast)
Warlock9
Warlock10
Warlock11 Quicken SLA
Warlock12
Warlock13
Warlock14 Open
Warlock15
Warlock 16

So I was playing around with a warlock build and thought this was a decent beginning to someone that can probably sling some damage around. Eldritch Glaive will most certainly be taken, but I could use some advice on other useful invocations.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-25, 02:45 PM
So I was playing around with a warlock build and thought this was a decent beginning to someone that can probably sling some damage around. Eldritch Glaive will most certainly be taken, but I could use some advice on other useful invocations.What level are you starting? If it's level 10 or so, you may want to drop those first 2 feats. The bonus to AB isn't really worth it for touch attacks. Pick up Weapon Finesse and something like Plunging Shot or similar instead.

kalt
2009-02-25, 05:25 PM
Hmm that is a good point, but being able to ignore that -4 seems like it is a useful thing. While I'll pick up eldritch glaive I still think it might be kind of useful since the drow, which are a primary enemy in this campaign have a decent dex so their touch AC is higher typical. I did notice in my build that I got into HFW 1 level earlier than possible since it require 12 ranks in a certain skill so I guess the earliest i can get into it is 10.

Thurbane
2009-02-25, 07:02 PM
Fiendblooded (Heroes of Horror) 9/10- A good, all around class that is superior to base sorceror - even more so, considering your campaigns principle antagonists.
Entry: 6th level
Advantages: Improved familiar, Bonuses to multiple stats, bonuses to resistances, bonus damage,
Disadvantages: 3 feats - Blood Calls to Blood (HOH), Eschew Materials, Education (FRCS) d4 HD, 1/2 BAB, Poor FORT & REF
Unless they updated it with errata, one of the entry reqs is Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks - which isn't a class skill for a Sorcerer. So you'd either need to be a 13th level Sorcerer, cross class into a different class for a level, or find some shenanigans that allow you to add KtP to your class skills list. Which is quite idiotic, since the class clearly states that it's designed with Sorcerers in mind. :smallfrown:

Ah, I see that's why you have the Education feat in there...

Tokiko Mima
2009-02-25, 07:15 PM
Hmm that is a good point, but being able to ignore that -4 seems like it is a useful thing. While I'll pick up eldritch glaive I still think it might be kind of useful since the drow, which are a primary enemy in this campaign have a decent dex so their touch AC is higher typical. I did notice in my build that I got into HFW 1 level earlier than possible since it require 12 ranks in a certain skill so I guess the earliest i can get into it is 10.

Or, since you're level 8, you can buy a Rod of Magical Precision (Complete Mage) for a couple thousand gp and save yourself two feat slots.

Ask your DM if you can take Supernatural Transformation (Eldritch Blast) and thereby get to ignore the defense that's going to hinder you much more.

Thurbane
2009-02-25, 07:43 PM
To the OP:

You could try a Warmage, and also grab the Bane Magic feat from HoH - take it twice: Bane Magic (Humanoids, Elves) and Bane Magic (Evil Outsiders). Just a stray thought. Also, the Warmage has all of the Orb spells, that punch straight through SR.