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Saph
2009-02-23, 06:50 PM
It looks like the answer is 'Reflex', and here's why.

I've just finished up my Red Hand of Doom game, and here's a list of all the PC deaths over the 17-session campaign, by cause:

Will Saves: 1
Fort Saves: 2
Reflex Saves: 9
Direct Attacks: 16
Miscellaneous: 2

(For the curious, here's the full list: Death count breakdown in my Red Hand of Doom game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5811489&postcount=361).)

Now, one of the things that a lot of people on this forum say is that Fortitude and Will saves are important, and Reflex saves aren't. The reasoning is that Fortitude saves can kill you, and Will saves can mess around with which side you're on, but Reflex saves are 'just damage'.

But looking at the numbers, it seems that 'just damage' is exactly what you should be scared of. All but a very few deaths were caused by damage, either administered directly via attack or spell, or due to a failed Reflex save.

In fact, out of the thirty deaths, only four could be said to be due to failed Fort or Will saves. Two were due to flubbed Fort saves against Con attacks (wyvern poison and a wraith touch) and two were due to deaths from confused party members. But note that even in these cases, direct damage played a part - the PCs wouldn't have died if they hadn't lost HP as well.

Obviously, one campaign isn't statistical proof. In particular, RHoD has a lot of dragons, which tend to kill via Reflex and direct damage (although it has no shortage of undead and clerics with hold person spells either). If we play on with the campaign and reach the levels where instant-death effects start flying around, I'd expect the number of failed-Fort deaths to go up by quite a bit.

But in the level 5-10 range (and by extension, the level 1-4 range as well)
it looks like a bucketload of HP and a good Reflex save are way more important than a good Fort and Will.


Conclusion

If you're playing in the level 1-10 range, the order of importance seems to be:

HP >> Ref >> Fort > Will.

In short, your HP is way important, your Reflex is very important, and your Will seems to be the one that matters the least.

- Saph

Starbuck_II
2009-02-23, 07:00 PM
Conclusion

If you're playing in the level 1-10 range, the order of importance seems to be:

HP >> Ref >> Fort > Will.

In short, your HP is way important, your Reflex is very important, and your Will seems to be the one that matters the least.

- Saph

Nope.
Because those Will saves + 2 confused = 3 not 1.
So the order should be HP >> Ref >> Will > Fort.

Confused may cause direct damage, but it itself was caused by Will save failure.

So Fort mattered the least.
I'm a little surprised no one in party bought a Horn of Plenty (Heroes Feast effect for party).
Very useful: enough that people should pool money to get it around level 8 (otherwise level 10 for 1 PC assuming no more 1/4th wealth/level).

Saph
2009-02-23, 07:03 PM
Because those Will saves + 2 confused = 3 not 1. So the order should be HP >> Ref >> Will > Fort.

Only two deaths were caused by confused party members. And in one of those cases, the PC could have survived and run away if he had had more HP. (In the second case, both targets were confused, so it would be fair to say that in that case it really was due to the Will fail.)

So at most that counts as 2 for Will, and I'm more inclined to call it 1.

- Saph

Yukitsu
2009-02-23, 07:07 PM
Hp only matters when you throw yourself into things. Playing in certain ways can imply near immunity to physical attacks. For reference, ready an action every round when in a duel. When the enemy swings, take a 5 foot step back. If they have a reach weapon, tumble away. On the other hand, some of the biggest dealers of HP damage are dragons, who are the most under CRed creatures in the monster manuel. Careful arcanists can basically ignore this, but everyone else has to pay it some attention if they plan on being anywhere near the front.

Reflex is the only save that will never outright kill you if you fail, but it comes up more often than any other. It is important only if your character does not have a lot of HP, but is again, something you can typically avoid to some degree. It is also the type of attack used by dragons, the most under CRed category of creatures in the monster manuel other than outsiders.

Fortitude is the save that can kill you outright. These types of abiilities are rarely used, unless the DM is a bit of a jerk.

Will is the only save that when failed, can kill not only you, but the rest of the party as well. The DM that uses these is even more so a jerk.

Step back and consider the tactics used by the enemies. Typically, a DM will use the "fair" techniques against players, and disregard the save or die effects as "unfair". As well, many DMs don't consider the disadvantage caused by a failed will save to say confusion as attributable to a failed will save, stating instead that they were killed by HP damage. The truth is, will saves will rarely directly cause death, but rather facillitates death by HP damage. It has as well the advantage that you can defeat enemies with buckets full of HP over time, if you get them with the right will save spell. Consider as well the monster types used. Dragons are powerful enough that even using reflex based elemental damage, they will cause PC deaths, unless one of the players is playing paranoia instead of D&D like I tend to.

Advocate
2009-02-23, 07:10 PM
Will. No contest. Failing a Reflex save is just damage. It won't bother you at all until you Critical Existence Failure. Yawn.

Failing a Fortitude save will probably kill you, or at least cripple you heavily. This is true even at level 1.

Failing a Will save can do that... or it can do worse than kill you, by making you start killing your allies.

Put another way, a failed Reflex save most likely results in 0 people being taken out. A failed Fortitude save removes one person from the fight. A failed Will save removes one person from the fight, and might add one enemy to the fight.

Guess which one messes with Action Economy the most?

As for RHoD, the main foes through most of the campaign are low level beatstick mooks, with slightly higher level beatsticks acting as leaders. These are the bulk of the forces you face, and quite frankly they're made jokes of by area control effects... such as Entangle, since you're mostly outdoors. In any case, all they can do is try to auto attack you to death. No save based effects.

The next most common is dragons. They just attack as well, but also breathe (Reflex). Some have a Will based set up, but it's not going to kill, just set up kills.

Then you have will casters. The Mindbenders, the priests and their Holds, and so forth.

The reason RHoD works out like it does is you are mostly fighting mooks. Lots of mooks, granted, but still mooks. In a more typical campaign, where the bulk of enemies are more level appropriate? You see much more Fort and Will based effects.

Saph
2009-02-23, 07:20 PM
Reflex is the only save that will never outright kill you if you fail.

But it will. If you have 20 HP and you get hit with a spell that does 30 HP damage (Ref half) then failing that Reflex roll DOES kill you.


It is important only if your character does not have a lot of HP, but is again, something you can typically avoid to some degree.

I wouldn't agree with this, for the simple reason of the numbers I've already listed. Many of those Reflex deaths were characters with fairly decent HP scores. They just got worn down. Sure, you can avoid most Reflex attacks . . . but then you can avoid most Fort and Will attacks too, at least in theory.


Step back and consider the tactics used by the enemies. Typically, a DM will use the "fair" techniques against players, and disregard the save or die effects as "unfair".

*shrug* I can't say if I'm a 'fair' or 'unfair' DM, but I think most of my players would tell you that I use pretty nasty tactics. I didn't use many insta-death effects during the RHoD run, but that's because there just aren't that many in the CR 1-10 range.

- Saph

Kurald Galain
2009-02-23, 07:26 PM
I'd say that once again Saph has done a good job of showing how some common forum theories don't match up with gameplay in practice. Theory and practice will always match, at least in theory...

In unrelated news, I've played games of Paranoia with a lesser death count... :smallbiggrin:

Nohwl
2009-02-23, 07:27 PM
The reason RHoD works out like it does is you are mostly fighting mooks. Lots of mooks, granted, but still mooks. In a more typical campaign, where the bulk of enemies are more level appropriate? You see much more Fort and Will based effects.

so if we completely change the test, we get different results?

Yukitsu
2009-02-23, 07:35 PM
But it will. If you have 20 HP and you get hit with a spell that does 30 HP damage (Ref half) then failing that Reflex roll DOES kill you.

Typically, this does not occur when using proper CR tables for ones encounters. In the event that it does, resources are available to prevent damage from most common elemental types. To illustrate this, even a dragon who has a more powerful than standard reflex save attack deals an average of 77 points at level 18. A typical wizard for instance, has 82-83 hit points. Not enough to kill him. A class that has actually got a decent hit die will survive even more, and a class that has a good con score even more. This example as well is a touch lopsided, as many individuals by level 18 usually can muster some form of elemental resistances.


I wouldn't agree with this, for the simple reason of the numbers I've already listed. Many of those Reflex deaths were characters with fairly decent HP scores. They just got worn down. Sure, you can avoid most Reflex attacks . . . but then you can avoid most Fort and Will attacks too, at least in theory.

Most reflex attacks hit an area. The best way to avoid death via reflex is to not clump together. Also, if I use sleep and then coup de gra an enemy, would you not agree that it was sleep that killed them? The final blow is often irrelevant in the context of what caused the greatest harm to the party. In addition, your data is fairly meaningless without a comparison to how many times it was used. I'm fairly certain that reflex save based effects were largely killing people due to occurance, and that the percentage of lethal reflex saves is much lower than the percentage of lethal fortitude based save or dies, or failed will related deaths, such as both confusion deaths.


*shrug* I can't say if I'm a 'fair' or 'unfair' DM, but I think most of my players would tell you that I use pretty nasty tactics. I didn't use many insta-death effects during the RHoD run, but that's because there just aren't that many in the CR 1-10 range.

- Saph

Yeah, that's the thing. There are no deadly fort saves or will saves if you don't use them, rendering the data somewhat moot. My DM uses them on me at those level ranges, and as such, I know that they can be very, very lethal. For reference of us, in our high lethal campaign in Eberron, we lost 4 party members to will saves, and 2 to fort. This compared to the three we lost to reflex saves. The percent of will saves that were lethal? A burst based will save produced by an illithid disabled 1 person per round, making it basically 100%. Fort saves were vs. disintegrate, killing once every two rounds. Reflex saves? DM threw 20 reflex saves on the same cluster of three. None had evasion, and they simply died.

That still means, however, that the death rate was only 3/20, as opposed to 1/1 or 1/2. This goes back to most DMs being fair, and ones that use this sort of nonsense as "not fair".

tyckspoon
2009-02-23, 07:36 PM
I'd say that once again Saph has done a good job of showing how some common forum theories don't match up with gameplay in practice. Theory and practice will always match, at least in theory...

In unrelated news, I've played games of Paranoia with a lesser death count... :smallbiggrin:

See, I would have said that the numbers simply re-illustrate one of the most fundamental truisms of D&D combat: Never be in a position where a dragon can Full Attack you. In fact, you generally shouldn't be trying to swap full attacks with anything anywhere near your own power level; it's a fairly suicidal activity. As shown by the number of deaths Saph recorded along the lines of (Fighter type) killed by Full Attack or Critical from (Monster).

Keld Denar
2009-02-23, 07:37 PM
HP has almost always been the primary source of defense. AC sometimes helps, sometimes doesn't, but HP are almost always there.

The thing is, nearly all reflex save spells ONLY affect HP. That means you can increase your HP or your reflex save to increase your survivability. Increasing your Con increases both your fort save and your HP, which is generally a better investment than increasing dex.

That said, you seldom have much ability to mess with your saves. Generally saves are something you calculate after figuring out your build. Things that increase one save generally increase all saves (like +resistance items, Divine Grace, etc) so you generally can't coddle one save or another. Also, rampant multiclassing results in either mega-inflated saves or vastly deficient saves unless you are using fractional saves (UA).

Just some of my own musings.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-23, 07:40 PM
But it will. If you have 20 HP and you get hit with a spell that does 30 HP damage (Ref half) then failing that Reflex roll DOES kill you.

Ahh, but that what he was getting at: they were likely already worn down by another attack. It wasn't the fireball that killed you, but the fireball + direct attacks that kill you/Vice versa.

Did you factor that in: When the death was caused by a plethora of stimulus/effects?

Yukitsu
2009-02-23, 07:42 PM
Did you factor that in: When the death was caused by a plethora of stimulus/effects?

No. In fact, confusion related deaths were categorized as being HP related.

grinner666
2009-02-23, 07:44 PM
Which save is most important depends more on the DM's style than anything else. Sure if your DM (or the adventure he's running) is heavy on Sorcerers tossing fireballs and lightning bolts around, Ref will seem to take preeminence.

But if the DM has a different style of play, the save most likely to kill you if you miss it will be different. If, for example, the DM likes to throw assassins with poisoned blades at you, you'll want at least a few characters with good Fort saves. If he likes to screw with the party via mind control/charm, or put people to sleep, Will suddenly becomes very important.

It's really all a matter of style. Frankly I've never run or, for that matter, played in a campaign where one saving throw was more important than the other two for very long.

Now the "jerk" DMs . . . those are the ones who use poison attacks against the Wizards, charm spells on the Rogues, and Lightning Bolts on the Clerics. Bastids.

:smallwink:

arguskos
2009-02-23, 07:44 PM
In my findings, Will saves tend to be the biggest killer. Domination spells, save-or-die spells, other Will effects tend to cause the most hurt.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that all the saves (and HP damage) are all about equally dangerous. Fireballs will kill the wizard, Disintegrate dirtnaps (forgive the pun) the rogue, and Dominate defeats the fighter, and draconic full attacks will end any of the above. *shrug* D&D is a dangerous game if you have decently smart badguys.

Kurald Galain
2009-02-23, 07:46 PM
Typically, this does not occur when using proper CR tables for ones encounters. In the event that it does, resources are available to prevent damage from most common elemental types. To illustrate this, even a dragon who has a more powerful than standard reflex save attack deals an average of 77 points at level 18. A typical wizard for instance, has 82-83 hit points.
Okay, so one dragon breath won't kill a wizard regardless of reflex save. Now how about two dragon breaths?


See, I would have said that the numbers simply re-illustrate one of the most fundamental truisms of D&D combat: Never be in a position where a dragon can Full Attack you.
Oh, absolutely. There are things more important than saves, and one of them is not being suicidally brave (e.g. standing in front of a dragon). But the question was, which of the three saves is most important.


Things that increase one save generally increase all saves (like +resistance items, Divine Grace, etc) so you generally can't coddle one save or another.
That is indeed a problem. Tweaking with your ability scores doesn't help too much either, and the +Save feats are somewhat dubious in effect as well. In other words: granting Saph's statement that ref saves are very important, how does that help my character?

Kantolin
2009-02-23, 07:52 PM
Interestingly, I'd agree reflex, but for slightly different reasons.

Namely, a lot of people like the trope of the wizard shooting fireballs from behind a pair of thuggish types with high ACs. Sure, there's the occasional enchanter/ress, and the wizard may have a baleful polymorph handy for the whole 'I turn you into a frog!', or a necromancer, but hey. DMs are no exception - I know when I come up with a wizard as a DM, the default is 'shoots lazers'. This does depend on the optimization level of your group, but choosing the mildly suboptimal fireball over haste doesn't matter too much when you're the DM. Worst case scenario, the bad guy loses - which is probably closer to what you wanted anyway.

And secondly, as a DM, I personally prefer utilizing save-or-irritating and damage spells over instant kills as well. If you make every battle into 'Everyone keep rolling fortitude saves until someone fails', it'd get lame fast. You'd also inevitably 'win', since eventually the random number generator will be on the side of the DM - anything that makes combat more lethal makes the players more likely to 'lose'.

Now, I did skip most of the rest of Saph's post outside of the analysis that reflex is likely most valuable - I'm interestingly in the Red Hand of Doom as we speak, and thus would much rather not spoil myself as to specifics about it. :P But odds are, like in most manuals I've glanced at, most of the people who force you to make saves are flinging fireballs at you.

(Now, this also could have to do with the optimization level of the group in question - reflex becomes less relevant the more fierce combat becomes - but then again, most people don't focus nearly as much on optimization as people seem to assume. :P )

Yukitsu
2009-02-23, 07:54 PM
Okay, so one dragon breath won't kill a wizard regardless of reflex save. Now how about two dragon breaths?


Kills me slower than the same dragon using one baleful polymorph, which typically pulls a success rate of 60% if I'm doing a good job at leveling out my saves somewhat. Also, two dragons of even CR are above my ECL, and as such, if soloing, I'd have to wonder what the DM is smoking. Otherwise, one has d4+1 rounds to recuperate and more importantly leave.

Also, it's still not killing me in one hit, which was my point.

Saph
2009-02-23, 07:58 PM
Typically, this does not occur when using proper CR tables for ones encounters. In the event that it does, resources are available to prevent damage from most common elemental types. To illustrate this, even a dragon who has a more powerful than standard reflex save attack deals an average of 77 points at level 18. A typical wizard for instance, has 82-83 hit points. Not enough to kill him.

No, but a second Reflex attack on top of that will.

If you look through my campaign journal, one of the fights which nearly TPKed the party was a combination of Ozyrrandion (young green dragon) and Koth (bugbear sorcerer). Both had a Reflex-hitting area attack, and the combination was deadly.


Most reflex attacks hit an area. The best way to avoid death via reflex is to not clump together. Also, if I use sleep and then coup de gra an enemy, would you not agree that it was sleep that killed them?

Definitely.

However, this never happened, and it wasn't due to the party never running into Will-targeting spellcasters - there were plenty of clerics in the Red Hand horde capable of using hold person.


No. In fact, confusion related deaths were categorized as being HP related.

I did factor that in. The confusion related deaths were factored as half Will and half HP.

But okay, since you insist, I'll put all the confusion-related deaths into the Will category. That makes the numbers:

HP damage: 15
Reflex: 9
Fortitude: 2
Will: 2

The numbers are still overwhelmingly biased towards HP damage via weapon, breath, or spell.

- Saph

Kaerou
2009-02-23, 08:04 PM
QR: It entirely depends on the module / adventure you are running, and your DM's preference in encounters and spell choice.

there is no right or wrong answer, it differs from game to game.

If you are playing in one of my games for example, you had better work on your fortitude save. I loves me some venom/poison.

A guy that DM's for me? Will save all the time. He LOVES mind tricks.

BRC
2009-02-23, 08:07 PM
People tend to undervalue HP because having your hit points whittled down isn't as dramatic as dying to a Fort or Will save spell. Plus, people have a habit of focusing on high level campaigns (Where a wizard can have 15 Save or Die/lose spells with very high DC's every day), instead of Mid or low where a wizard may have one or two such spells with significantly lower saves (as they have yet to pump up their INT to extreme levels).

Saph
2009-02-23, 08:09 PM
Namely, a lot of people like the trope of the wizard shooting fireballs from behind a pair of thuggish types with high ACs. Sure, there's the occasional enchanter/ress, and the wizard may have a baleful polymorph handy for the whole 'I turn you into a frog!', or a necromancer, but hey. DMs are no exception - I know when I come up with a wizard as a DM, the default is 'shoots lazers'. This does depend on the optimization level of your group, but choosing the mildly suboptimal fireball over haste doesn't matter too much when you're the DM. Worst case scenario, the bad guy loses - which is probably closer to what you wanted anyway.

Actually, one of the things I discovered during my time DMing Red Hand of Doom is that fireball is a very, very effective spell against PCs.

Compare an empowered fireball (level 5) to Yukitsu's example, baleful polymorph (level 5). The baleful poly has maybe a 50% chance of taking a PC out. The fireball won't kill anyone unless the DM rolls a lot of sixes - but it hits all or nearly all of the PCs at once, and it still damages even on a successful save, meaning anyone else attacking them will have a much easier time of it. Now add to that the fact that a failed save against a fireball while you're on low HP will kill you, while a failed save against the baleful poly just takes you out of the game until the party cleric can memorise a counter to it next morning.

All in all, from a PC's point of view, I'd say the fireball is scarier. Just do the numbers - if there are 6 PCs and an animal companion in the party, then the total damage done by that fireball is going to be enormous.

- Saph

Yukitsu
2009-02-23, 08:14 PM
No, but a second Reflex attack on top of that will.

If you look through my campaign journal, one of the fights which nearly TPKed the party was a combination of Ozyrrandion (young green dragon) and Koth (bugbear sorcerer). Both had a Reflex-hitting area attack, and the combination was deadly.

I noted that dragons are excempted from typical statements about damage however. And despite this, a wizard at this level, typically has 33 hit points. A dragon and mage of the appropriate CR deal 21 damage on average each, and a wizard can expect to pass one of their saves. 31.5 damage. Again, not enough to kill him, assuming average rolls. And this is a wizard mind you, not anyone with a real hit die. A fighter averages about 58 hit points, and can afford to fail twice, pass once and still be up.


Definitely.

However, this never happened, and it wasn't due to the party never running into Will-targeting spellcasters - there were plenty of clerics in the Red Hand horde capable of using hold person.

Did you use it in many situations that it could be taken advantage of? In general, people should hit targets that are in melee so they can be immediately coup de grad. Most players find this unfair if used against them, and I tend to agree.

Thurbane
2009-02-23, 08:18 PM
It looks like the answer is 'Reflex', and here's why.

I've just finished up my Red Hand of Doom game, and here's a list of all the PC deaths over the 17-session campaign, by cause:

Will Saves: 1
Fort Saves: 2
Reflex Saves: 9
Direct Attacks: 16
Miscellaneous: 2

(For the curious, here's the full list: Death count breakdown in my Red Hand of Doom game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5811489&postcount=361).)
That's some very interesting stats - I wouldn't have guessed that Reflex would be so important, but I guess with a lot of blasty casters and dragons, it makes sense...

Saph
2009-02-23, 08:28 PM
That is indeed a problem. Tweaking with your ability scores doesn't help too much either, and the +Save feats are somewhat dubious in effect as well. In other words: granting Saph's statement that ref saves are very important, how does that help my character?

I think the moral is what Keld suggested; your HP are your primary defence. Push them as high as possible.

The character with the best survival record in the campaign was the fighter, and IMO this was mostly due to a high Con score, a d10 Hit die, and the Improved Toughness feat.


I noted that dragons are excempted from typical statements about damage however. And despite this, a wizard at this level, typically has 33 hit points. A dragon and mage of the appropriate CR deal 21 damage on average each, and a wizard can expect to pass one of their saves. 31.5 damage. Again, not enough to kill him, assuming average rolls. And this is a wizard mind you, not anyone with a real hit die.

I don't understand why you're only analysing this over one round. Sure, one reflex attack won't kill you, just like one melee attack won't kill you (unless you're very unlucky). But most combats last longer than one round. The above wizard would be still alive on 2 HP, sure - but now he's an incredibly tempting target.

Most character deaths don't come from a single attack that takes them from full health to insta-dead. They get worn down over time from a combination of bad decisions, bad luck, and steep odds, until a final hit pushes them over the edge.


Did you use it in many situations that it could be taken advantage of? In general, people should hit targets that are in melee so they can be immediately coup de grad. Most players find this unfair if used against them, and I tend to agree.

It was generally a moot point, for a variety of reasons. Have a look at the journal if you want the in-depth answer.

- Saph

Yukitsu
2009-02-23, 08:38 PM
I don't understand why you're only analysing this over one round. Sure, one reflex attack won't kill you, just like one melee attack won't kill you (unless you're very unlucky). But most combats last longer than one round. The above wizard would be still alive on 2 HP, sure - but now he's an incredibly tempting target.

Most character deaths don't come from a single attack that takes them from full health to insta-dead. They get worn down over time from a combination of bad decisions, bad luck, and steep odds, until a final hit pushes them over the edge.

I view combat as a one round event. Two at most. This is the mindset of players that have high lethality games where the DM uses save or dies on a regular basis. Generally, if we are unfortunate enough to lose initiative, someone goes down (last encounter, one person went down to an uber charger, survived in the negatives) and the remainder of the party finish it off in one go. In this case, our party necromancer downed the challenge with a finger of death.

To reiterate, this only occurs when the DM is not being fair, but in those cases, an enemy getting a standard action causes a death or disablement. To combat this, players in our group use a near identical methodology to get by. Being on low hit points simply means expenditure of resources after the battle. Being dead means being dead. These sorts of groups where the DM is not fair, the will saves are the most deadly, and the fort saves next most.

For point of reference, my very nonstandard wizard at level 3 has an intelligence score of 20, the eldritch training feat for +2 to save DCs, and arcane consumption for +4 to save DCs for the two times I can cast like this before it kills me. In total, I have a DC 23 save or screwed at level 3
(ghoul touch). Encounters are similar, screwing over the party fairly hard when we neglect our saves.


It was generally a moot point, for a variety of reasons. Have a look at the journal if you want the in-depth answer.

- Saph

Will do.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-02-23, 08:41 PM
Yukitsu: Something you have not seemed to notice is that the breath weapons/spells/reflex save attacks all effect multiple people. Sure 22 damage won't drop the wizard or the fighter. However, it will hurt them all to a point where the following melee will be much harder/deadly.

Saph: I also DM'd a campaign recently that left lots of importance on reflex saves. At multiple points people commented that reflex was the only important save.

Saph
2009-02-23, 08:46 PM
I view combat as a one round event. Two at most. This is the mindset of players that have high lethality games where the DM uses save or dies on a regular basis. Generally, if we are unfortunate enough to lose initiative, someone goes down (last encounter, one person went down to an uber charger, survived in the negatives) and the remainder of the party finish it off in one go. In this case, our party necromancer downed the challenge with a finger of death.

Okay, but you surely realise that this is pretty far removed from the ordinary.

First off, most D&D campaigns spend most of their time in the levels 1-10 range (which your game obviously isn't if your party necro can chuck finger of death spells around). Second, this kind of hyper-optimisation to the point where a single standard action from an enemy means probable death is pretty uncommon. It's certainly not how most people play, and it's not how most standard modules are designed.

For instance, if you have a look at the Red Hand of Doom module details, on page 110:

the instructions for running the final battle have Azarr Kul spending a total of seventeen standard actions buffing himself and launching attack spells before closing into melee. Pretty far removed from the 1/2 round limit you're suggesting, no? :P

- Saph

BRC
2009-02-23, 08:49 PM
Personally, I hate that approach. Just because it's possible for a wizard to end the fight in one round all by themselves dosn't mean it's a good thing to do, or even a necessary thing to do. The game isn't built with the assumption that wizards will be trying to end combat as quickly as possibly, the way I see it is this
1) We Play DnD to have fun
2) Combat is a large part of DnD, therefore we must find combat fun.
Therefore, ending combat as quickly as possible isn't very much fun. Oh, it might be amusing the first few times, but eventually it get's boring when the DM spends hours making exciting encounters, only for the wizard to end them in one round.

mikethepoor
2009-02-23, 08:52 PM
I think Argus has the right idea here; I'd personally say that I think Will is the most important overall, but they all have their merits.

Fortitude is the most important because, while they come at a moderate pace overall, failing can mean much more than just HP damage, up to and including death outright.

Reflex is the most important because, while an individual save by itself is rarely fatal, it is by far the most common save employed and usually tends to catch multiple PCs.

Will is the most important because, while usually the rarest of the three, has the potential to directly affect the entire party based on the success or failure of one character.

Yukitsu
2009-02-23, 08:54 PM
Not in particular. It's on one end of the spectrum, and yours is more to the middle. However, I do hear of plenty of other games that play in that style, particularly of the group that doesn't really like fighters. Call of Cthulhu games that I play in tend to be that way as well, sans PC competence.

Basically, my point is that it's hard to say which saves are relevant from a campaign fatality list like this. From what I can tell, you didn't go easy on the players, but certainly didn't pull jerk moves that instantly messed the party over, which really, is what save or suck/dies are all about. However, some people do, and in those sorts of games, HP doesn't mean a thing, will is the most important and reflex the least, simply because that's the hierarchy of how dangerous the effects of those types actually are.

As for Azarr Kul, I have no idea how he expects to survive even 17 rounds of having rocks thrown at him, to be honest.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-23, 08:57 PM
All in all, from a PC's point of view, I'd say the fireball is scarier. Just do the numbers - if there are 6 PCs and an animal companion in the party, then the total damage done by that fireball is going to be enormous.

- Saph

Do not animal Companions get Evasion? So you should have dealt nothing on a success.
But yeah, I get what you mean.

Yukitsu
2009-02-23, 08:57 PM
Personally, I hate that approach. Just because it's possible for a wizard to end the fight in one round all by themselves dosn't mean it's a good thing to do, or even a necessary thing to do. The game isn't built with the assumption that wizards will be trying to end combat as quickly as possibly, the way I see it is this
1) We Play DnD to have fun
2) Combat is a large part of DnD, therefore we must find combat fun.
Therefore, ending combat as quickly as possible isn't very much fun. Oh, it might be amusing the first few times, but eventually it get's boring when the DM spends hours making exciting encounters, only for the wizard to end them in one round.

Depending on who is at the reign, the fighter can do it, the rogue can do it, the cleric can do it etc. Insta killing things isn't the sole realm of the full arcane caster, they simply are the best at it. The entire party can manage it, when well optimized, and our enemies are generally built around the same premise. Combat goes quickly, and we can get back to other, more important parts of adventuring, like political intrigue.

imperialspectre
2009-02-23, 09:00 PM
Saph, I read the journal and enjoyed it, but the conclusions in the OP leave me with a few questions. For starters, I don't recall your casters using spells like Glitterdust very often, and the module itself didn't have a ton of casters to begin with. Doesn't the content of the module and the choices your NPC spellcasters made create something of a selection bias in favor of Reflex saves?

More importantly, though, I think you might be drawing some correct conclusions, but for the wrong reasons. Fort and Will saves include some auto-lose effects, which can inflict fatalities, but most often the best Fort and Will-targeting effects just make the target less effective. Slow means the target is much less mobile and much worse at doing damage. Solid Fog locks down some of the enemy, making them less relevant for a period of time. Glitterdust blinds the target, which makes them much easier to hit, destroys their combat effectiveness, and hurts their reflex saves.

All that being the case, it's possible that Fort and Will-targeting effects don't create as many casualties as Reflex and direct damage effects because the former set targets up to be casualties due to HP loss. This is underscored when you classify deaths from confusion-induced friendly fire as HP damage--it's true, but the Will-targeting effect set up death from HP loss.

All that to say: you're definitely right that HP is the basic defense, and that keeping it high is ultimately the best all-around protection. However, that doesn't justify neglecting Fortitude and Will defenses, especially since Reflex defenses are ultimately very easy to improve via dips, PrCs, items, and spells.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-23, 09:16 PM
My 2 cents:

In my last 3E campaign, I was playing a Rogue/Fighter. Good Fort, good Reflex, lousy Will. I faced enemies using Confusion twice - once an Umber Hulk, once an enemy caster - and each time I got hit by it. The worst part wasn't that I was killing my allies (nobody gave me flanking :smalltongue:) but that I was not there to help my allies survive. As a result our tank had to soak up more of the damage, and our damage output dropped dramatically. And 1 round / level is no slouch - I was absolutely taken out of each fight, 'cause nobody could spare a Dispel Magic.

I also narrowly avoided death from a Hold Person; if the DM had been meaner, I would have been Coup De Graced in one of the 5 rounds it took me to make my save.

So it's not that Will Saves will kill you, or even your allies; Will saves will drop your party size by 1, making it far more difficult for everyone involved. That makes the Will Save the most important save - a failed Reflex save will hurt you, a failed Fortitude will kill you, but a failed Will will hurt the entire party, and maybe kill someone in the process.

Saph
2009-02-23, 09:35 PM
Saph, I read the journal and enjoyed it, but the conclusions in the OP leave me with a few questions. For starters, I don't recall your casters using spells like Glitterdust very often, and the module itself didn't have a ton of casters to begin with. Doesn't the content of the module and the choices your NPC spellcasters made create something of a selection bias in favor of Reflex saves?

A little of one, yes. But often the Reflex saves were just a better choice. Fireball is a very handy spell against PCs, because its large blast area can easily catch an entire party.

Spell selection isn't the major issue, though, because only a handful of the deaths in the module actually came about due to spellcasting. One from a lightning bolt, one from a call lightning, and a couple from confusions. The rest were all attacks or special abilities.


This is underscored when you classify deaths from confusion-induced friendly fire as HP damage--it's true, but the Will-targeting effect set up death from HP loss.

Oh, come on. How many times am I going to have to answer this one? There were two deaths that involved confusion. Two. Even if you give all the credit to the failed Will save for causing both deaths (which would be false), that's still only two deaths out of thirty. Not exactly overwhelming!


So it's not that Will Saves will kill you, or even your allies; Will saves will drop your party size by 1, making it far more difficult for everyone involved. That makes the Will Save the most important save - a failed Reflex save will hurt you, a failed Fortitude will kill you, but a failed Will will hurt the entire party, and maybe kill someone in the process.

Did anyone actually die because you were taken out of the combat? Or was it just an inconvenience, meaning that the party took an extra 2 rounds to kill the monster and had to use more charges from their healing wands afterwards?

Failed Will saves such as to confusion feel the most significant. But often, if you look back on your fights and track the times when a PC was actually killed (not just annoyed) it wasn't due to one big failed save, but several bits of damage that added up.

I've heard lots of people on this forum repeat the same line of argument you're making, but the fact is, when I go back and check the numbers, they just don't support the conclusion you're drawing.

- Saph

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-23, 09:37 PM
Gee, I take it you didn't have any rogues in the party? You know, the ones with Evasion? Heck, in that particular campaign, a Monk turns into a viable option, because you are maximizing his abilities, and he laughs at any kind of area-effect damage.

Heck, toss Ref/Half at my current party (who are level four), and they'd laugh at you. Half the party has Evasion, and the other half have HP so high that it doesn't matter.

The problem with your stats is that you often use the Reflex/Half spells as finishers. They've already been worn down by the swarms and swarms and swarms of mooks, so that even on a successful save, they go down.

The campaign you were running is a "Multi-million-mob-marathon". of COURSE they are eventually going to be worn down. The thing is set up with almost TWICE the number of encounters per day as the DMG suggests, with under-CR'd monsters. And it keeps a time crunch so the party cannot simply use Rope Trick to top off every so often.

Reflex saves by themselves are not particularly dangerous because they cannot one-shot you. A failed Fort or Will save CAN. That is why people focus on Fort or Will saves. They negate the need for HP, because if you fail your fort save, it doesn't matter how many hit points you have, you have lost.

If you had people who were good at out-of-combat healing, such as a Dragon Shaman, or people smart enough to go "Hey, you know what? We're getting hit by this flavor of elemental damage a lot, why don't I cast Resist Energy on the party and shrug it off?", or classes specifically designed to go on all day long (Warlock), and you'd have had different results. If the tank had options for armor sufficient to make him almost immune to mooks, the numbers would have been different.

You had a party who did not play smart. They did not maximize their AC, they did not bother with energy resistance, they did not find a way to keep topped off, so they constantly went down to being beaten on and successful reflex saves. In other words, a 'fool's mate'.

monty
2009-02-23, 09:40 PM
Reflex saves can hurt you. Fort saves can kill you. Will saves can make you worse than dead.

The reason reflex saves seem more deadly is because they're the most common.

Saph
2009-02-23, 09:44 PM
Gee, I take it you didn't have any rogues in the party? You know, the ones with Evasion? Heck, in that particular campaign, a Monk turns into a viable option, because you are maximizing his abilities, and he laughs at any kind of area-effect damage.

. . .

If you had people who were good at out-of-combat healing, such as a Dragon Shaman, or people smart enough to go "Hey, you know what? We're getting hit by this flavor of elemental damage a lot, why don't I cast Resist Energy on the party and shrug it off?"

There were several PCs with Evasion, the PCs had a near-unlimited supply of out-of-combat healing, and they had plenty of Resist Energies. Honestly, if you're going to make fun of people, you should at least check your facts first.

- Saph

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-23, 10:00 PM
Allow me a chance to critique:


Chapter 1: The Witchwood

* 5th-level wizard: Skull Gorge Bridge battle. Cause: Breath weapon attack by the green dragon Ozyrrandion. This one I can see, a level 5 Wizard goes down to a breath weapon. Reflex is their poor save. However, if they knew they were going up against a Green Dragon, they should have had Energy Resistance up.

* 6th-level fighter/barbarian: Goblin Raid event. Cause: Lightning bolt from a Kulkor Zhul war adept. How can this character eat hawt deth from a lightning bolt? Either he was whittled down, in which case he needed more armor, or the caster was monsterously over-leveled



Chapter 2: The Ruins of Rhest

* 6th-level ranger: First Battle of Rhest. Cause: Augmented Critical from a Greenspawn Razorfiend. Luck sometimes catches up with us.

* 6th-level sorcerer: First Battle of Rhest. Cause: Full attack from an Ettin Warrior.Bad Wizard! You deserved to die by being in melee long enough to eat a full attack. Mirror Image FTW!.

* 7th-level paladin/fighter: Second Battle of Rhest. Cause: Full attack from the black dragon Regiarix.
* 7th-level duskblade: Second Battle of Rhest. Cause: Full attack from the black dragon Regiarix. Friends don't let friends go toe-to-toe with dragons. It's just never worth it.

* 7th-level duskblade (again): Second Battle of Rhest. Cause: Breath weapon attack, also by Regiarix. Again, you know what type of dragon you are going up against, you Energy Resist it.

* 7th-level druid: Second Battle of Rhest. Cause: Grapple + full attack from Regiarix. And again, anyone who goes toe-to-toe with a Dragon fails. However, he was clearly unprepared, or he would have won anyways in Brown Bear Wildshape.

* 7th-level fighter/monk: Third Battle of Rhest. Cause: Another augmented critical from the same Greenspawn Razorfiend. Lot of crits going off here...



(DM Note: Man, I forgot how much of a bloodbath this chapter was. It was the same player, Kenny, who was decapitated by the razorfiend both times; he had to leave the group after this session, though, preventing him from raising his death count any further. From this point on the number of players in the campaign held steady at six.)

Chapter 3: The Ghostlord's Lair

* 7th-level fighter/monk: Rematch with Koth and Ozyrrandion on the road to the Thornwaste. Cause: Wyvern poison. He must have rolled a nat-1, because he's got to have insane Fort saves, and Wyvern poison is only DC 17.

* 7th-level fighter/monk (again): Same battle, two rounds later. Cause: Breath weapon attack from Ozyrrandion. Umm... it's called Evasion. What size dragon is this that he can't hit the dang save? Perhaps it's not a problem of too many reflex saves, it's that the save DC's are boosted to insane levels

* 7th-level duskblade: Thornwaste random encounter. Cause: Swallowed by Varanthian.
* 7th-level shapeshift druid: Thornwaste random encounter. Cause: Swallowed by Varanthian.
* 7th-level wizard: Thornwaste random encounter. Cause: Grappled and raked to bits by Varanthian. A 7th level wizard has no business being anywhere near a grapple. The spell is called Fly. What was the rest of the party doing when the other two were grappled, anyways? And how did anything manage to grapple a Druid in an outdoor setting? Entangle FTW.

* 7th-level cleric: Ghostlord's Lair (Ulwai Battle). Cause: Critical hit from the confused tiefling fighter. This one is due to a failed Will save.

* 8th-level duskblade: Non-violent death during end-of-chapter rest. Cause: Out of time on his contract. This is Plot, nothing more.



(DM Note: The road trip was more dangerous than the Ghostlord and everything in his lair put together.)

Chapter 4: Enemy at the Gates

* 8th-level fighter: Abithriax's Rampage event. Cause: Full attack by Abithriax.
* 8th-level cleric: Abithriax's Rampage event. Cause: Full attack by Abithriax.
* 8th-level druid: Abithriax's Rampage event. Cause: Full attack by Abithriax.
* 8th-level duskblade/wizard/abjurant champion: Sniper Attack event. Cause: Full attack by Skather and subsequent bleeding to death. Again, friends don't let friends go toe to toe with a dragon. The Cleric shouldn't have allowed this to happen, neither should the Druid. By 8th level, they should have access to too many ways of keeping it away from them.

* 8th-level shapeshift druid: Sniper Attack event. Cause: Scorching Ray and Magic Missile spells from two Kulkhor Zul War Adepts. There were no saves involved here, basically a character was told "You die now, no save". Granted, much of it could have been prevented with Resist Elements, but there wasn't much the party could do at this point.

* 8th-level fighter: Final Battle event. Cause: Being played as an NPC by another player (and a full attack from a hasted hill giant.) What was that Giant doing hasted? Didn't you have a wizard at least 5th level in the party?

* 8th-level fighter: Final Battle event. Cause: Thunderstrike from Ulwai Stormcaller.
* 8th-level Master of Shrouds: Final Battle event. Cause: Call Lightning attack from Ulwai Stormcaller. The flavor is lightning, the spell is Resist Energy.



(DM Note: Another bloodbath, though this one was expected as this was the point where the adventure gets really dangerous. There are two morals to take away from the events here: 1) don't stand around within full attack range of red dragons, 2) don't let other players use your character as an NPC, especially when the party is looking for a handy meatshield to place within full attack range of red dragons.) Agreed


Chapter 5: The Fane of Tiamat

* 9th-level wizard: Entrance to the Fane of Tiamat. Cause: Breath weapon attack by the blue dragon Tyrgarun.
* 9th-level cleric: Entrance to the Fane of Tiamat. Cause: Breath weapon attack by the blue dragon Tyrgarun.
* 9th-level fighter/barb/psywar: Entrance to the Fane of Tiamat. Cause: Full attack from the blue dragon Tyrgarun.
* 9th-level beguiler: Rescue mission attempt. Cause: Breath weapon from Ozyrrandion and being betrayed and stranded in hostile territory. Again, when you are facing a dragon, it is stupidly simple to know what kind of Energy Resistance you will need, don't stand next to dragons, and being stranded in hostile territory should not have mattered with a Rope Trick in the party.

* 9th-level druid: Outer Sanctum. Cause: Failed Fort save from a wraith's touch.
* 10th-level psion: Inner Sanctum. Cause: Confusion spells and an attack by the druid's bear. Odd that the druid failed a Fort save, they have good Fort saves generally, and by 9th, he should have been in wildshape all day long, which further boosts his Fort saves. The bear should have been a Wolf, which would have had Devotion, and made the save.



(DM Note: Oddly, once the PCs actually made it into the Fane of Tiamat, they had a relatively easy time. That said, if they'd tried to clear the entire place out the death toll probably would have been two or three times as high.)

Totals

Out of curiosity, I added up the deaths to see what was the most common cause. In the case of multiple causes, I picked the dice roll that led directly to the character dying.

The only ones that were really hard to categorise were deaths from confusion and similar spells, as they were directly caused by both the failed Will save and the HP damage. In the end I counted them as half each.

Deaths from Natural Causes: 1 (Kelemvor counts as pretty natural.)
Deaths from Being Played As An NPC: 1 (seriously, don't do this.)
Deaths from failed Will Saves: 1 (two confusion-assisted deaths, counted as a half each.)
Deaths from failed Fortitude Saves: 2 (wyvern poison and a wraith poke.)
Deaths from failed Reflex Saves: 9 (three from Ozyrrandion's breath weapon, two from Tyrgarun's breath weapon, one from Regiarix's breath weapon, one call lightning, one lightning bolt, and one of Ulwai's thunderstrikes.)
Deaths from Direct Attacks (ie anything that hits AC/HP and doesn't allow a save): 16 (three due to critical hits, three due to grapple/rake/swallow, and seven due to full attacks from dragons.)

In short, the deaths can be summed up as follows:

Failure to use Resist Energy
Letting a Dragon Full Attack you
Letting ANYTHING in melee with a caster
Bad Luck

nightwyrm
2009-02-23, 10:09 PM
umm...I didn't look at your campaign notes, but isn't using the raw numbers of "saves leading to death" a flawed methology? Shouldn't you be looking at how many failed saves leads to death as a percentage of the total amount of saves of that type? ie. you have 9 deaths due to attacks that target ref saves, but if the PCs had to make a total of 100 refs saves over the course of the game, ref attacks have only a 9% kill rate. On the other hand, if your PCs only had to save vs fort 4 times, that's a 50% kill rate for fort attacks.

Statistically speaking, most car accidents happens around your home. But that's because you're spending most of your driving time around your home. Same thing here, if 90% of the saves targeting the PCs are ref saves, then it's most likely that they will be killed by a ref attack.

Finally, most fort and will saves aren't gonna kill someone outright. But they'll inflict a status effect that is going to allow the ones doing the casting to win with less effort. They're going to be enablers rather than finishers.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-23, 10:14 PM
Did anyone actually die because you were taken out of the combat? Or was it just an inconvenience, meaning that the party took an extra 2 rounds to kill the monster and had to use more charges from their healing wands afterwards?

Failed Will saves such as to confusion feel the most significant. But often, if you look back on your fights and track the times when a PC was actually killed (not just annoyed) it wasn't due to one big failed save, but several bits of damage that added up.

Well, actually yes. Our party "Paladin" (he was some Divine class that could pop Turns for ridiculous buffs) had to tank the BBEG all by himself, resulting in his death 'cause he had to take one too many Full Attacks. If I had been there delivering Sneak Attack damage, we could have ended that combat 1 or 2 rounds earlier. And that's not even counting the enemy Caster who was allowed to walk around free 'cause there suddenly wasn't anyone free to pin her down.

Y'see, I thought the question was which save as the most "important" not the one which killed folks the most. Yes, Death is terrible but, as you have rightly pointed out, it usually comes from massive HP loss sustained over many rounds. However, a Confusion or Hold Person can - at the very least - remove a person from combat instantly, often with a relatively low-level effect. And, supposedly, combat in 3E is tied to the number of people in a party; if you suddenly lose party members, the chance of something going terribly wrong goes up.

Will saves are the most important because they increase the uncertainty of battle - for pretty much every Will-based effect. That uncertainty might just make you use a few more resources, or it may turn the battle from a fair fight to a holding action... or a rout.

But yes, if you want "important" = "most likely to kill you" then I bow to your empirical evidence. It seems sensible that frequent, high-damage effects that you haven't protected adequately against will kill you more often than the infrequent save-or-die spell or poison.

horseboy
2009-02-23, 10:27 PM
Kills me slower than the same dragon using one baleful polymorph,
RHoD is LG approved. No Baleful Polymorph allowed. :smallamused:

ericgrau
2009-02-23, 10:46 PM
I'd say that once again Saph has done a good job of showing how some common forum theories don't match up with gameplay in practice. Theory and practice will always match, at least in theory...

In unrelated news, I've played games of Paranoia with a lesser death count... :smallbiggrin:

+1. This one single game is far from conclusive, but yeah a lot of times it happens this way. But fear not, people are already explaining it away with theories, and for those theories using reality as support is entirely optional (though it happens and personally I'd recommend it). Anyone who wants more detail on Saph's campaign can check out her thread.

And, Citizen Kurald, you forgot to specify that deaths in Paranoia - unlike d&d - are for the good of friend computer and thus are worth the price of clone. Your comment is treason and as such please report for your execution.

Saph
2009-02-24, 07:07 AM
However, if they knew they were going up against a Green Dragon, they should
...
Again, friends don't let friends go toe to toe with a dragon. The Cleric shouldn't have allowed this to happen, neither should the Druid. By 8th level, they should have access to too many ways of keeping it away from them.
...
Again, when you are facing a dragon, it is stupidly simple to know what kind of Energy Resistance you will need, don't stand next to dragons, and being stranded in hostile territory should not have mattered with a Rope Trick in the party.
...
Odd that the druid failed a Fort save, they have good Fort saves generally, and by 9th, he should have been in wildshape all day long, which further boosts his Fort saves. The bear should have been a Wolf, which would have had Devotion, and made the save.

Should, should, should, should, should.

"Should" isn't "did". This is an account of What Happened, not What Was Supposed To Happen.


Well, actually yes. Our party "Paladin" (he was some Divine class that could pop Turns for ridiculous buffs) had to tank the BBEG all by himself, resulting in his death 'cause he had to take one too many Full Attacks. If I had been there delivering Sneak Attack damage, we could have ended that combat 1 or 2 rounds earlier. And that's not even counting the enemy Caster who was allowed to walk around free 'cause there suddenly wasn't anyone free to pin her down.

Fair enough.


But yes, if you want "important" = "most likely to kill you" then I bow to your empirical evidence. It seems sensible that frequent, high-damage effects that you haven't protected adequately against will kill you more often than the infrequent save-or-die spell or poison.

Well, also, if you're considering that "worst possible save failure = failed save that takes you out of the battle" I should point out that death takes you out of the battle fairly conclusively. :P

- Saph

Tehnar
2009-02-24, 08:21 AM
I don't get people who say that this module does not follow advise from the DMG, and pits you against more encounters then proscribed by the DMG. Please, find the passage in the DMG where it says that PCs are supposed to have 4 encounters per day with one monster of their CR.

What I've noticed in my games is that players, when their PC is reduced to a low amount of hp, tend to panic. They run behind cover, drop prone, run away, drink a potion, whatever they think can save their characters. What this does is take them out of the fight. One good dragon breath and they are scrambling like headless chickens for cover. And then most are too far away for the cleric to use mass resist energy on all of them.

I think all saves are equally important, however I think the easiest save to shore up is will. Lots of low level spells that can protect you from the worst effects. But that is just my experience.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-02-24, 09:17 AM
What I miss most in this report is an overview of the player saves, I remember there were lots of druids in your campaign, they generally have high wis, good con and poor ref saves, factors like this should be taken into the conclusion.

What I surprisingly haven't heard in this thread so far is that a common complaint about ref saves is that often they only save for half while other saves save completely and fail/have-fail<fail/no-fail.

All in all I do agree that folks around the forum assume a to high standard of optimalisation and that ref saves are important, just as will and fort saves are.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-24, 09:33 AM
Should, should, should, should, should.

"Should" isn't "did". This is an account of What Happened, not What Was Supposed To Happen.

- Saph

Precisely. If the party was intelligent about Resist Energy, if they knew how to properly fight dragons, and if the casters knew how to avoid getting into melee, the number of deaths in the campaign would have been drastically reduced. Because they didn't, they sustained massive death counts.

If the wizard tries to do anything in melee, he is going to go down. Same thing with trying to fight a dragon on his own terms without energy resistance.

This isn't "Reflex saves are more important", it is "this module is hard because it has massively more numbers of opponents than it should, a time limit to keep the casters from recovering, and the party used poor tactics, which resulted in mass death."

Starbuck_II
2009-02-24, 09:46 AM
Precisely. If the party was intelligent about Resist Energy, if they knew how to properly fight dragons, and if the casters knew how to avoid getting into melee, the number of deaths in the campaign would have been drastically reduced. Because they didn't, they sustained massive death counts.


I don't think it is so much intelligence but preparation.
The party wasn't as prepared as they could have been.


If the wizard tries to do anything in melee, he is going to go down. Same thing with trying to fight a dragon on his own terms without energy resistance.

And a Wizard that pretends to Gish can stand up any melee: My Wu Jen did in my old campaign.
Say Mithral Chain Shirt + Twilight= decent AC and cast in armor.

Then add Miss chances, a dash of sprinkles, and maybe some ice cream: and Dragons won't kill you easily.
Also never dump Con (I only took elf because I never played one before).

Although, the Elven immunities to Paralyze helped alot: from ghouls, to Carrison Crawlers, etc.


This isn't "Reflex saves are more important", it is "this module is hard because it has massively more numbers of opponents than it should, a time limit to keep the casters from recovering, and the party used poor tactics, which resulted in mass death."

I wouldn't say poor tactics: that is a little mean. But they didn't use the best tactics. They used energy resist a few times I remember (at leaat once if I recall from the journal)

Advocate
2009-02-24, 09:56 AM
so if we completely change the test, we get different results?

No, RHoD is a very atypical test. About half or more of the fights until the very end game can seriously be solved by Entangle because they are taking place outdoors, and you are fighting a whole lot of mooks. When you fight level appropriate enemies, you see more attacks on the meaningful saves. Normally you fight level appropriate enemies.

Based on some other factors I have noted, it was also a very atypical campaign, in which there was a lot of selective niceness to certain party members, if not blatant cheating on their behalf.

Edit: Read the rest of this. Long post is long.


Typically, this does not occur when using proper CR tables for ones encounters. In the event that it does, resources are available to prevent damage from most common elemental types. To illustrate this, even a dragon who has a more powerful than standard reflex save attack deals an average of 77 points at level 18. A typical wizard for instance, has 82-83 hit points. Not enough to kill him. A class that has actually got a decent hit die will survive even more, and a class that has a good con score even more. This example as well is a touch lopsided, as many individuals by level 18 usually can muster some form of elemental resistances.

Just to clarify, when you say 'typical Wizard' you mean 'typical Wizard around 6 levels lower than the dragon', right? Because if we're going by typical when it's level appropriate, it's average 77 damage vs 118.5 HP...not going to kill, even if not protected via one of many ways. Unless you were already near death.


See, I would have said that the numbers simply re-illustrate one of the most fundamental truisms of D&D combat: Never be in a position where a dragon can Full Attack you. In fact, you generally shouldn't be trying to swap full attacks with anything anywhere near your own power level; it's a fairly suicidal activity. As shown by the number of deaths Saph recorded along the lines of (Fighter type) killed by Full Attack or Critical from (Monster).

Obvious problem. This means the beatstick is busy scratching himself in most fights, as he can't deal with relevant opposition. So while you are correct, it's also a good point against beatsticks. Especially given the way RHoD is set up, where you go up 6-7 levels within a few weeks of game time, meaning you don't have time to craft the items beatsticks must have to be relevant, and there aren't a lot of places around where such things can be purchased. Now, RHoD is actually pretty good at giving you treasure... it's just not that good at giving you treasure you can actually use, and since you have few chances to convert the gold fodder into relevant items you're stuck sliding off the RNG, making all of the above worse.


Reflex saves can hurt you. Fort saves can kill you. Will saves can make you worse than dead.

The reason reflex saves seem more deadly is because they're the most common.

Oh good, someone mostly saved me the trouble of elaborating a bit.

The chance that a Reflex save will reduce the collective abilities of your party is basically nil. Maybe if you're at the point where one more scratch will kill you, and it scratches you you die. Maybe if it's one of the very few Reflex saves that actually does decent Action Denial such as Grease or Chilling Fog. Now, you probably are closer to dead, barring Evasion but you have not suffered a Critical Existence Failure yet, thus you are still at 100% effectiveness, and the party is not losing out on your own contributions, whatever they may be.

The chance that a Fortitude save will reduce the collective abilities of your party is much higher. It might be a partial negation, where say... you get poisoned, but still have your stats above 0. You are reduced, perhaps even drastically reduced but not eliminated. This actually impacts your abilities, and thus ensures your party, collectively is not at 100%. Of course poison can kill (Con 0), or at least take you out for a very long time (any other stat 0), and the higher end effects will just kill you outright, thereby completely removing anything you brought to the fight.

Now, Will saves... even the weakest ones, while not completely negating you come pretty close. Slow on a beatstick is automatic irrelevancy, even though they can still act because it means one attack only, only if they don't move, half speed (which also means no 5' steps) and so forth. Enemy 5' steps outside of their reach over and over. Can't charge, too close. Can't get AoOed, because it's a 5' step. Can't counter with your own 5' step due to the Slow, so you have to spend your whole turn catching up. Casters are hit fairly hard too if they actually fail a Will save, because while they can still cast just fine, they can no longer maintain the mobility defense that negates enemy beatsticks. The better ones remove you from the fight, just like Fortitude saves... but the nastiest ones remove contribution from your side and add it to the enemy side, thereby screwing you over the hardest as now they have whatever advantage that Dominated guy gives twice over, instead of just once.

The thing is though, most effects that boost saves boost all saves at once. It is possible to just get say... resistance to Fortitude saves, but it costs half as much as resistance to all saves. In other words, getting +x to Fort and Will only is just as expensive as getting +x to all three. The Reflex boost can therefore be thought of as a free bonus. It does not do much, but it costs nothing at all so it's a bonus, albeit a minor one.

Someone mentioned Reflex saves are spread out. This is actually the problem with them. In general, focusing fire is the smartest tactic. In any game with Critical Existence Failure style HP such as every edition of D&D, ever, this is doubly true. You are not focusing fire, therefore you are not limiting the number of counterattacks being leveled against you, and you are fighting stupidly. Furthermore, the whole fight at 100% effectiveness thing at 1 HP? It's apparent from an in character standpoint, as they lose no actions, speed, or anything from doing so. So there is no reason why everyone just would not know that.

Even the stronger Reflex saves are looking at multiple shots to actually drop anyone, and the shots are spread out over time, giving plenty of time to recover, get out of there, or whatever. The weaker ones? Only happens if you spam them with some large number of Reflex saves in a short amount of time, and then only if they aren't prepared. To give one of many examples, a Delayed Blast fireball, from a focused blaster against my party. The save DC is 26 due to SF, GSF, and Int 24 which is not at all unreasonable for a level 15 NPC. In fact, it's a little low.

The most vulnerable is the party Cleric, due to forgetting the Dex item (and only having a +16 Reflex modifier) and forgetting the Con item (and only having 141 HP).

The blast does 52.5 on a failed save, and 26.25 on a passed save.

55% chance to pass, 45% chance to fail. Weighted average is 38.0625 per shot. It takes 4 of these to kill her, while completely unprepared and just standing there, doing nothing.

Next most is the Paladin, who has similar HP, but a Reflex save 2 points higher.

The best would probably be the Favored Soul, who has a 5% chance to take full damage and a 95% chance to take nothing, due to an Evasion ring.

And remember, this assumes the entire party just stands there scratching themselves while AoE effects drop on them. A minor healing effect would completely negate the fire. A minor Resist ward would completely negate it most of the time, and take most of the punch out the rest. Energy Immunity: Fire (commonly used) would block it entirely. Also, about three people are all very close to getting Evasion, which makes them more of a joke. Even when you consider 2 DBF spammers would be level appropriate for this party that still means the risk doesn't even begin until round 2 (when they're likely dead) assuming nothing has been done to change it.

Kurald Galain
2009-02-24, 10:19 AM
Precisely. If the party was intelligent about Resist Energy, if they knew how to properly fight dragons, and if the casters knew how to avoid getting into melee, the number of deaths in the campaign would have been drastically reduced. Because they didn't, they sustained massive death counts.

Well, then the point must also be that in practice, very few parties will ever use optimized tactics. Because not every player is a tactician, because it might be out of character for them, because there are factors that the player is unaware of, you name it.

For instance, a campaign I ran last year ended with the level-10 party going up against a red dragon BBEG. At that point, the party rogue decided it was a good idea to not participate, and instead sneak towards the dragon's hoard. Even worse, the party beguiler thought it was a good idea to charge the dragon with his rapier.

Because of this, shall we say, novel strategy, the party was heavily wounded and forced to flee. Minus the beguiler, who was simply annihilated by a full attack.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-24, 10:20 AM
Reflex is the only save that will never outright kill you if you fail Most traps of the "falling ceiling" type always kill you outright if you fail the Reflex save.

Person_Man
2009-02-24, 10:23 AM
Conclusion

If you're playing in the level 1-10 range, the order of importance seems to be:

HP >> Ref >> Fort > Will.

In short, your HP is way important, your Reflex is very important, and your Will seems to be the one that matters the least.

- Saph

This is close to my understanding as well. My formula is:

Tactics > HP > AC > Ref > Touch AC ~ Fort ~ Will

HP and AC are obviously a feature of almost every combat. When Saves do come up, then Ref is definitely the most popular, and its effects tend to grind down everyone without a high Save and Evasion. The importance of Touch AC, Fort, and Will Saves depend on the DM and the encounter. But nothing is more important then the tactics you use. In particular, knowing how to work as a team, how to use battlefield control, when to heal, to Tumble/teleport away, to spread out, to gangbang, to debuff a boss, etc.

Saph
2009-02-24, 10:38 AM
This is close to my understanding as well. My formula is:

Tactics > HP > AC > Ref > Touch AC ~ Fort ~ Will

That's a good one; better than mine, I think.

Tactics are your primary defence with HP your second (since some attacks are going to get through no matter how well you play). Beyond that Reflex tends to come up the most because of how many area Reflex-targeting effects there are, and because a failed Reflex save on top of HP loss can kill you so easily. Fort and Will can be very nasty at higher levels, but at lower levels a failed Fort/Will save is often more annoying than fatal (Dex/Str damage from poison or a disease for Fort; being Shaken or temporarily knocked out of a combat for Will). The most common Will save the party made in RHoD ended up being to fear effects.

Admittedly, though, I'd expect things to change once you got past level 9, as in the higher levels you start getting a lot of insta-kill and insta-lose effects that key off Fort and Will. But even so, simply nuking the party repeatedly is still going to be a valid tactic for the monsters.

- Saph

Advocate
2009-02-24, 10:39 AM
Linking to this because it seemed like no one had replied, then I edited and there were three more posts so that this doesn't get overlooked:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5814257&postcount=50

Edit: And another ninja.

Yukitsu
2009-02-24, 11:19 AM
Most traps of the "falling ceiling" type always kill you outright if you fail the Reflex save.


Dropping Ceiling
CR 9; mechanical; location trigger; repair reset; ceiling moves down (12d6, crush); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-by-10-ft. room); never miss; onset delay (1 round); Search DC 20; Disable Device DC 16. Market Price: 12,600 gp.

Falling ceiling traps just kill you, no save. The only save or die with reflex is earthquake, and that relies on floor bound players in specific terrain.

Advocate
2009-02-24, 12:06 PM
If 'just kill you' means '42 damage, when even the Wizard has 42 HP exactly' I suppose it does. Otherwise, no.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-24, 12:29 PM
The question is what happens on a failed save. A failed Will save takes you out of the fight and boosts your opponents team. A failed Fort save just takes you out of the fight. A failed Reflex save damages you. Damage contributes to taking you out of the fight, but that's not the only factor. I'd much rather an enemy use Fireball than Slow or Stinking Cloud.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-24, 12:35 PM
The question is what happens on a failed save. A failed Will save takes you out of the fight and boosts your opponents team. A failed Fort save just takes you out of the fight. A failed Reflex save damages you. Damage contributes to taking you out of the fight, but that's not the only factor. I'd much rather an enemy use Fireball than Slow or Stinking Cloud.

I always get Amulet of Adaptation attached to whatever necklace of Con/NA I get so Stinking Cloud never affects me.

But then I'm usually an item Crafter.

BRC
2009-02-24, 12:38 PM
The question is what happens on a failed save. A failed Will save takes you out of the fight and boosts your opponents team. A failed Fort save just takes you out of the fight. A failed Reflex save damages you. Damage contributes to taking you out of the fight, but that's not the only factor. I'd much rather an enemy use Fireball than Slow or Stinking Cloud.
That's not the only question. The question is also "How often do I need to roll this save". You may have built a character that laughs at DC 35 Will saves, but still dies constantly because for every time somebody tries to mind control you, ten times people try to blow you up with a fireball/shoot you with lightning/ breath fire at you/whatever. Sure, a failed ref save alone probably won't kill you, but neither will a melee attack, or any number of other things, and I have a feeling that the vast majority of deaths in DnD are from damage, not "Kill or Die" effects.

Personally, if I was going to pick a save to pump up, It would be Fort, because Fort gets increased with Con, which also increases HP, which helps counteract your low Ref save. You won't dodge those fireballs, but you can stand there and take it.

Fixer
2009-02-24, 01:57 PM
Ways to kill characters:


HP
Direct Damage Touch AC Targeted
Standard AC Targeted
Splash/Indirect Damage
Reflex Saves

Fort saves
Will saves
Death by Ticking Off GM (i.e. No Save)

The most common way of killing PCs is by HP. In order for characters to prevent that, they need AC (Touch preferred) and Ref and maneuver to avoid splashes (which don't require attack rolls or allow Ref saves).

If you have your AC and Ref saves up enough, then you deal with Fort for the insta-kills. Many insta-kills (but not all) require low HP or an attack, so as long as you take care of HP and AC, many of these won't affect you. Items that prevent insta-kills are not uncommon at higher levels.

If you have fortified your HP, AC, Ref and Fort, then you deal with your Will. If you lose a will save and have to attack your friends, and everyone around you has great AC and HP scores, you probably will not hit them. A simple Planar Ward (taken as a feat: Shape Soulmeld: Planar Ward) prevents many Will effects from screwing with you and getting the T-shirt for #1 teamkiller.


So, as a player trying to focus on survivability/invulnerability, focus on HP first, AC second, Reflex third (especially if you can get evasion/improved evasion), Fortitude fourth, and Willpower last (as Willpower can be largely 'fixed' by a single feat).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-24, 02:05 PM
I always get Amulet of Adaptation attached to whatever necklace of Con/NA I get so Stinking Cloud never affects me.5th level WBL. Those are 3rd level spells. Save optimization starts early.

Advocate
2009-02-24, 02:45 PM
5th level WBL. Those are 3rd level spells. Save optimization starts early.

Yes. I also deliberately went with weak examples. How about Ray of Dizziness? Anyone who doesn't have immune to mind affecting is limited to standard or move only, no save, ranged touch. It's basically Slow, except single target, no save, and no move speed reduction.

If you are a martial type and you are hit by this, you might as well spend the rest of the fight scratching yourself as you are limited to a single attack, and then only if you don't move more than 5'.

A caster hit by it can still cast fine, but can no longer maintain the mobility based defenses that shut down enemy beatsticks with absolutely no effort, time, or resource cost on their part.

Or how about combining Solid Fog with the Spiked Tentacles? Even if you aren't grabbed, you literally cannot move as the fog cuts you to 5', and the tentacles half that which means 0 foot move. Freedom of Movement will counter this. It's the same level. Compared to even the tame higher level tricks it's weaksauce. It's still better than anything, and everything the Fighter can do.

Fixer's analysis ends up wholly incorrect because it involves prioritizing blocking the things that have the lowest lethality rate as if they were the most dangerous and vice versa. Getting scratched to death is only remotely dangerous at all if those scratches are being spammed. For say... a full attack, this is happening. However, you aren't going to stop it via AC, so you get real defenses such as miss chances and Mirror Image to block enemy auto attacks. Or you just play something that can be relevant as a Standard action, thus allowing you to move, and only get hit once a round which negates the hazard for zero resource cost.

For Reflex saves though... how many encounters are you going to face where there are enough enemies to spam Reflex saves, strong enough so that you care about those saves? Exactly. Maybe if it's something like a CR + 6 encounter full of casters it'd happen... but ya know what? An encounter of casters 6 levels higher than the party can slaughter said party in so many ways, many of which are far more efficient and faster that it really doesn't even matter.

Fortitude and Will saves are dangerous singly. All it takes is one level appropriate opponent using them to do nasty things. So while you can completely avoid the scratch to death via normal attacks simply by playing a real class who isn't stuck to their square auto attacking, and the Reflex saves aren't coming in fast enough to actually be an issue, Fortitude and Will effects are going to commonly actually pose a threat, because again it simply takes one level appropriate opponent capable of employing them.

About the only case that could honestly be made at all for Reflex saves is that smart parties are going to have very high saves across the board precisely to prevent the real threats in addition to likely immunities, so that little scratch spell is actually all you have against them. Even then though, it's not as if it were difficult to negate energy damage, which covers the vast majority of Reflex effects right there so they can't even do half of yawn damage. Also, high saves across the board would be more of a case for no save effects such as the Ray of Dizziness referenced here, Enervation, and various others, not trying to actually kill say... a bunch of high levels, by doing 26 damage once a round if they didn't prepare for you and much less if they did. Which means it takes 7 shots to kill a decently durable character who just stands there doing nothing. 7. Shots. That's 7 rounds. Fat chance. One Immediate action nullifies it entirely.

snoopy13a
2009-02-24, 02:50 PM
Uh, doesn't it depend on what type of monsters, tactics, and spells the DM uses?

If the DM has his/her casters use Fireballs then Reflex would be the most important. If the DM has casters use Hold Person, Slow, etc then Will would be the most important.

Advocate
2009-02-24, 03:02 PM
Uh, doesn't it depend on what type of monsters, tactics, and spells the DM uses?

If the DM has his/her casters use Fireballs then Reflex would be the most important. If the DM has casters use Hold Person, Slow, etc then Will would be the most important.

Even if Reflex saves were 10 times more common than Will saves, the fact is the Will save has a chance of removing you, and potentially adding you to the other side of near 100% if you fail it. Reflex saves aren't going to impede you at all until they get spammed. See above.

AmberVael
2009-02-24, 03:35 PM
Uh, doesn't it depend on what type of monsters, tactics, and spells the DM uses?

If the DM has his/her casters use Fireballs then Reflex would be the most important. If the DM has casters use Hold Person, Slow, etc then Will would be the most important.

Holy crap! Someone who sees the big picture! :smalltongue:
I agree with this.

Sure, there are gigantic evil spells that can suck away all of your life in a single will save or fort save.
Sure there are dragon breath attacks and fireballs and all kinds of stuff.

But you know what? What the DM actually uses is what is going to determine what is most dangerous. It doesn't matter if there are all kinds of reflex provoking attacks if the DM doesn't use them. It doesn't matter if a caster can throw save or die spells if the DM has them prepare fireballs.

What matters is the style of the DM.

nightwyrm
2009-02-24, 04:02 PM
Of course, if the DM only uses melee brutes, you don't have to care about ANY saves at all.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-24, 04:26 PM
So it seems the concensus here that you have two 'tiers'...

Tier 1: Always needed

Tactics > HP > AC

Regardless of whatever else happens, these will reduce your odds of dying.

Tier 2: Situational

These are your three saves: Fort, Will, and Reflex. These depend largely on the play style of your GM, and what you happen to be encountering a lot of.

However, there are ways to negate or otherwise obviate each of these:

For Reflex saves, mostly it is elemental damage. If you can figure out what element is going to come out of the zap-o-matic (such as the case of running into Dragons, who are color-coded for your convenience), Resist Energy pretty much negates this as a threat. Otherwise, Evasion + high Reflex save = immune.

For Fort saves, there are several methods. First, there is Mettle + High Fort Save = Immune. Then, you can use toys to cover your rear, if you can't get the proper immunities from race/class/templates. Necklace of Adaptation, for example, means Stinking Cloud or even Cloudkill doesn't affect you. This is big. A Scarab of Protection will absorb death and level drain attacks. Sure, it dies after a number are absorbed, but it's a whole lot less expensive than a Resurrection. Also, if you know ahead of time that you are worried about it, the Cleric can Death Ward people.

For Will Saves, there are many ways to become immune. Most of these are Mind-Affecting. Mind Blank is an effective counter that lasts all day. If you pick up the PrC Slayer, you get immunity as well. The humble Protection from X spells at least prevent you from acting on the mind-affecting ability until it wears off. This includes things like Dominate and Confusion.

What you run up against is largely dependent on what your GM throws at you. If you know you are going to be running up against a bunch of dragons and a bunch of mooks, then you need excellent AC and Energy Resistance of the proper flavor. If you know you will be facing a bunch of Will saves, pack Immunity to Mind-Affecting. If you know you will be facing a bunch of Fort Saves, make sure you can adequately face them.

Kurald Galain
2009-02-24, 05:09 PM
Question for Saph:

On estimate, how often did one of the player characters succeed on a saving throw, where failing that saving throw would have killed him?

Starbuck_II
2009-02-24, 05:16 PM
Of course, if the DM only uses melee brutes, you don't have to care about ANY saves at all.

Death from Massive Damage = Fort save.

Saph
2009-02-24, 05:20 PM
Question for Saph:

On estimate, how often did one of the player characters succeed on a saving throw, where failing that saving throw would have killed him?

Difficult to say. I'm sure it happened at least half-a-dozen times with Reflex attacks and possibly several times with Will saves (though the Wills were all "could have killed" rather than "would have killed").

The time it happened most would have been in the penultimate session, where the party fought a group of wraiths. The wraiths poked them literally twenty times or so, but since a wraith's touch only has a DC of 14, the PCs were almost never failing their saves.

- Saph

Advocate
2009-02-24, 05:37 PM
Death from Massive Damage = Fort save.

That's pretty much natural 1 only, when it does start coming up. Of course, they're probably doing that on every single hit... like Vorpal, except free and marginally less suck.

Personally I recommend house ruling that out so D&D isn't even more about the rocket tag, but RAW your beatsticks are getting spammed by SoDs from everything, including other beatsticks.

monty
2009-02-24, 06:55 PM
That's pretty much natural 1 only, when it does start coming up. Of course, they're probably doing that on every single hit... like Vorpal, except free and marginally less suck.

Personally I recommend house ruling that out so D&D isn't even more about the rocket tag, but RAW your beatsticks are getting spammed by SoDs from everything, including other beatsticks.

I personally like to change it so that you have to save if you take more than 75% of your max HP in one hit. Otherwise, you have the 30 HP wizard taking 29 damage and shrugging it off while the 200 HP barbarian risks death from a comparative scratch.