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View Full Version : [4e] - So I worship a few gods - any reason I can't channel all their powers?



Shadow_Elf
2009-02-23, 10:14 PM
Okay, lets say someone in a 4e game decides to be a Dragonborn Paladin of Celestia. Not of a specific god, but of Celestia in general. He therefore reveres Kord, Bahamut and Moradin. Can he take all three of their Channel Divinity feats, if he so chooses?

I know this is a DM to DM based question, but I was wondering what others thought.

Does letting a character who worships multiple deities take all of their channel divinity feats break the game? Technically its RAW, but I'm not sure that WotC ever considered a polytheistic individual in 4e.

Beleriphon
2009-02-23, 10:17 PM
Okay, lets say someone in a 4e game decides to be a Dragonborn Paladin of Celestia. Not of a specific god, but of Celestia in general. He therefore reveres Kord, Bahamut and Moradin. Can he take all three of their Channel Divinity feats, if he so chooses?

I know this is a DM to DM based question, but I was wondering what others thought.

Does letting a character who worships multiple deities take all of their channel divinity feats break the game? Technically its RAW, but I'm not sure that WotC ever considered a polytheistic individual in 4e.

I'd say that's fine. You need to spend three feats, so why not.

Draz74
2009-02-23, 10:19 PM
Ha, and here I thought 4e still had something to mechanically distinguish Clerics of different deities. Silly me. :smallamused:

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-23, 10:21 PM
Generally, CD Feats are weak (and you can only use one per Encounter) but I think it might conflict with what fluff we're given:


As fervent crusaders in their chosen cause, paladins must choose a deity. Paladins choose a specific faith to serve, as well as an alignment. You must choose an alignment identical to the alignment of your patron deity; a paladin of a good deity must be good, a paladin of a lawful good deity must be lawful good, and a paladin of an unaligned deity must be unaligned. Evil and chaotic evil paladins do exist in the world, but they are
almost always villains, not player characters.

Emphasis mine.

RTGoodman
2009-02-23, 10:22 PM
By the RAW, most people worship a handful of gods at various times, and even Clerics and Paladins can worship more than one even though they "more often" worship a specific one.


Most people revere more than one deity, praying to different gods at different times. [...] Clerics and paladins more often serve a single deity.

I'd allow it, but only for gods that make sense. I mean, Erathis and Bane might make sense for an Unaligned Cleric or Paladin, but Pelor and Torog... not so much.

EDIT: Of course, I think Oracle_Hunter's quote is more specific, so it takes precedence.

Hat-Trick
2009-02-23, 10:41 PM
You worship three, okay. But, are you DEVOTED to three? Just Kord and Moradin for a moment using the 3.5 descriptions because I don't know 4e from Adam, it's hard to be Chaotic and Lawful at the same time. Possible, in the terms that you are one, but relate to a god of the other more readily, but that's still just one. So, personally with that set? Mostly, no unless there was good reason why. If the god choices made sense together, sure.

Colmarr
2009-02-24, 12:25 AM
Oracle_Hunter posted the key information; that you can only use one Channel Divinity power per encounter.

It doesn't matter if you worship Kord, Bahamut, Corellon AND Avandra, you still only get one Channel Divinity per encounter. Not one per god.

With that in mind, I'd probably allow a player to take more than one of the feats if they wanted to. There certainly doesn't seem to be any "rules" text (as opposed to "fluff" text) that prohibits it.

Thanatos 51-50
2009-02-24, 04:56 AM
"Sure you can, but you need to blow three feats, and keep in mind, you can choose to do either Armour of Bahamut, Kord's Favour, Mordain's Resolve, Divine Mettle or Divine Strength.
Hey, you can Worship ALL of the Good-aligned dieties, homebrew a few, worship those, and take their feats, too. You'd be severly gimping yourself, but you'd have a few neat option in comat, and whenever you chose one, you'd close off all sorts of other, potentially more useful doors, but okay."

Kurald Galain
2009-02-24, 05:04 AM
It's not unbalancing (as long as you leave Tempus out of there). So yeah, I'd say go for it.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-24, 06:00 AM
It's not allowed by RAW, because by RAW a paladin has to serve one deity, but I'd allow it - it's not unbalancing and a paladin who serves Celestia instead of one specific god makes sense to me.

Hal
2009-02-24, 07:25 AM
It's not unbalancing (as long as you leave Tempus out of there). So yeah, I'd say go for it.

Why is Tempus OP? Automatic crits once per encounter aren't terribly overpowered when it's a Battle Cleric doing it.

In any case, the way we handled this in my game was to refluff the CD feats to be for my specific deity (Bahamut, in this case). This grants access to the power without making me polytheistic. And I see no reason why a polytheistic cleric can't take multiple feats.

Kurald Galain
2009-02-24, 07:32 AM
Why is Tempus OP? Automatic crits once per encounter aren't terribly overpowered when it's a Battle Cleric doing it.

The OP was referring to a paladin, not a cleric.

Aoric
2009-02-24, 09:00 AM
Oracle_Hunter posted the key information; that you can only use one Channel Divinity power per encounter.

It doesn't matter if you worship Kord, Bahamut, Corellon AND Avandra, you still only get one Channel Divinity per encounter. Not one per god.

With that in mind, I'd probably allow a player to take more than one of the feats if they wanted to. There certainly doesn't seem to be any "rules" text (as opposed to "fluff" text) that prohibits it.

To add to what Colmarr said, (and for those of you not too familiar with channel divinity, rather than those posting here who know what I'm talking about) that use of channel divinity once per encounter also includes class features, not just Channel divinity feat powers, so keep that in mind as well.

For Paladins, that includes divine strength and divine mettle. Clerics, Divine Fortune and turn undead.

Zocelot
2009-02-24, 09:02 AM
Why is Tempus OP? Automatic crits once per encounter aren't terribly overpowered when it's a Battle Cleric doing it.

Even if the player only hits (and triggers the crit) %50 of the time, they're more than doubling the amount of critical hits they make. With the right selection of powers and a high crit weapon, this can be quite powerful.

In response to the OP, letting the player take multiple Channel Divinity feats seems reasonable. Since they cannot be combined, I can't see any way to break them via combination. Obviously, if there is, rescind the ability to take several, and let the player retrain.

Yakk
2009-02-24, 11:05 AM
By the default fluff, a Paladin does a ritual in which they are sealed to their deity, and draw Divine power through that seal. (Note that usually only devoted servants are chosen, as once the ritual has been performed, the link cannot be broken.)

The Channel Divinity option is then determined by the flavour of Divine power that fuels them.

I don't see how this would line up with being 'linked to Celestia' -- it is the Divine beings who have power individually, not (by default) collectively.

If in this world, Paladins work differently, then a different explanation is needed.

Balance wise, it would only have a relatively small impact, as you are adding more options not more raw power (the uses are limited by 1/encounter among all uses of Channel Divinity, as mentioned by prior posters), and you are burning feats to get these options.

THAC0
2009-02-24, 01:04 PM
I believe that - per RAW - the Paladin's alignment must match EXACTLY his deities. That right there prohibits multiple deities of differing alignments as the OP posted.

Asbestos
2009-02-24, 01:38 PM
It's not unbalancing (as long as you leave Tempus out of there). So yeah, I'd say go for it.
Even with Tempus it isn't unbalancing since, I mean, he's taking three flipping feats for it. He can only use 1 of his 5 channel divinity powers once per encounter, if he's going to be using Tempus' every encounter anyway (which would be the sensible thing to do from a DPR point of view), then he's effectively wasted two feats to do it. I'd say spending three feats to get a ~50% chance of critting 1/encounter actually brings RRoT in line, it could even be argued that it excessively nerfs the power.

Colmarr
2009-02-24, 07:13 PM
By the default fluff, a Paladin does a ritual in which they are sealed to their deity, and draw Divine power through that seal. (Note that usually only devoted servants are chosen, as once the ritual has been performed, the link cannot be broken.)

The same fluff also says that once the paladin is imbued (for want of a better term), s/he has their powers for good. The gods don't/can't strip them, and its up to mortals to police their own churches.

It's a fairly straight extrapolation from that that a paladin could be sequentially sealed to a number of deities and retain the benefits (ie. Channel Divinity feats) of each.

KillianHawkeye
2009-02-25, 05:38 AM
It's a fairly straight extrapolation from that that a paladin could be sequentially sealed to a number of deities and retain the benefits (ie. Channel Divinity feats) of each.

Even if that is so, it still doesn't allow you to select deities with different alignments, since as THAC0 stated, a Paladin must match their deity's alignment exactly. Unless you purposely meta-roleplay your way into a new alignment and (since Paladin't don't fall anymore and can't ever lose their powers) later re-devote yourself to a different deity of your new alignment.

Personally, I'd allow it as long as the deities were all the same alignment. Otherwise, it just seems too cheesy to me.

sleepy
2009-02-25, 06:33 AM
If I were your DM you would have to talk very fast to convince me a god who has only a fraction of your loyalty would be prepared to invest you with divine power of any sort. The assumption behind that sort of thing is generally that you will use it to further that god's agenda. If your descision making is going to be influenced by other dieties that sounds like it might not play out properly.

Aquillion
2009-02-25, 07:50 AM
Personally, I'd allow it as long as the deities were all the same alignment. Otherwise, it just seems too cheesy to me.But for something to be cheesy, there has to be 'cheese' involved -- something overpowered. There's nothing especially powerful here (indeed, as others have pointed out, it's actually a fairly underpowered choice.)

So if someone wants it, go ahead and let them.

Yakk
2009-02-25, 12:27 PM
The same fluff also says that once the paladin is imbued (for want of a better term), s/he has their powers for good. The gods don't/can't strip them, and its up to mortals to police their own churches.

It's a fairly straight extrapolation from that that a paladin could be sequentially sealed to a number of deities and retain the benefits (ie. Channel Divinity feats) of each.
Sure, but then by the same fluff, a level 30 wizard could undergo the ritual.

Which, in 4e terms, would mean taking a multi-class feat. And under the crunch, you cannot have more than 1 multi-class feat.

By the crunch, you cannot double-class into paladin, but you can multi-class into two divine classes, often using similar mechanisms of "sealing you to your god".

However, you cannot under the crunch do this with 3 classes total. Which implies (to me) that there is a limit to how much you can use these powers.

A Paladin at level 1 is sealed to her god -- at level 30, the Paladin is better at it.

...

But all of this is getting off of the fluff/crunch deep end.

Sholos
2009-02-25, 04:25 PM
I find it hard to believe that any god would seal a paladin who had already been sealed to another god. Doesn't exactly show a lot of loyalty there.

Mando Knight
2009-02-25, 04:39 PM
I find it hard to believe that any god would seal a paladin who had already been sealed to another god. Doesn't exactly show a lot of loyalty there.

Eh. Some gods like it better that way... particularly the Evil ones who snag a formerly Good character, or vice-versa...
Possible examples of what go through such deities' minds...
Tiamat: "So the Paladin was devoted to my blasted brother before turning to me. That doesn't mean I don't want her... she's more valuable to me that way. Like everything else I steal from Bahamut..."
Bane: "A Paladin has turned to me where the pathetic Kord has failed! Ha Ha! In your face, weakling!"
Corellon: "A repentant cleric of Lolth is always welcome in my halls. Come, young sister! Let us cleanse the stain of the Spider Queen from your soul!"

Yakk
2009-02-25, 05:28 PM
Further, any intelligent foe the PCs fight that gets hurt enough but doesn't die falls back to the main chamber for one massive epic BBEG fight. They also have inflict traps set up, that they can deliberately trigger on themselves to recover, and so forth.
Sure.

Now, here's the problem in 4.0. In that system, this sort of thing just isn't possible. Full stop.
It is quite possible. Build the entire place such that the entire set of opponents can be defeated in one fight -- almost.

Build minion-swarms to represent large numbers of footsoldier grunts.

Build minions to represent officers and the like.

A single level +4 encounter can have up to 40 even-level minions, or 80 level-4 minions, in it. Each minion could be a "swarm" of troops (yes, minion swarms don't exist in 4e, but they aren't that hard to write using the framework). That's an army, and one that the party could probably defeat if they fought it all at once.

Each swarm would be ~10 low level soldiers, btw.

And yes, if they manage to reduce the enemy down to small groups, they'll slaughter it.

Then build a few more fights in set pieces. Maybe include some rewards for doing them.

But I just filled the castle with almost 1000 troops, and set it up so that the party could probably kill it in a 2 hour long fight.

If you want less grunts, you can strip out minions and turn their XP into creatures. You still have a fight in which everything together would be a +hard+ challenge for PCs.

You could even boost the collective XP of the castle up to level+5 or +6, as opponents in waves are easier than opponents at once, and rewarding a party for finding a place to recover...

That actually sounds like a fun scenario. I can just see the PCs breaking into the castle, defeating bad guys, thinking how easy it is... then the alarm goes off...

And the end of the fight, when the BBEG comes at the exhasted party, having waded through legions of troops...

Personally, for pacing, I'd put a mini-boss in there that arrives half way through, and give them an encounter power reset and a 'free' healing surge use and an AP after beating the mini-boss. That would allow for the 'defeat the castle' mega encounter to have twice as many opponents. (or more higher level ones).

Remember, the "how high in level should an encounter be" is a tool for the DM to balance encounters, not a rule of the world. It simply indicates that an encounter that is higher than level+5 is one that will probably defeat the players.

The existence of a collection of opponents that can kill the players isn't a problem. The question is if you can build the encounter with the feel of "you are up against an army".

See, first of all combat is much longer, to the point of being a grind. So while having significant reinforcements come in every 1-3 rounds or so is quite doable in 3.5, in 4.0 this will very quickly get out of hand, as there is no way they can deal with any credible threat fast enough.
Use lower level opponents and minions if you want large numbers of oponents.


Second, and more importantly you are supposed to take 5 minutes off after every combat to scratch yourself, heal your little scratches (of a different sort) with Healing Surges, and so forth. It may take longer than that if you're hurt more. But most importantly, you have to do that to recover your Encounter powers, as otherwise they're just weaker Dailies. In 3.5, recovering after a fight takes far less time, perhaps even no time at all.Most classes have only daily resources in 3.5, they have no per-encounter resources. 4e characters who manage to hide and recover gain a power boost -- it is between 10% and 30% depending on the character level.


So same scenario in 4.0, party quickly runs out of firepower. They have no means to recover it, and the odds keep shifting against them as more forces arrive to bolster the ones that haven't died yet (as opposed to replacing those that do). They get grinded down into Padded Sumo TPK. Why? Because smart enemies were smart. That's it.That, and you didn't balance the encounter to be fought as one encounter.

If you throw a party of level 10 3e adventurers against a castle of 100 level 10 NPCs, and have all 100 of them attack in rapid succession, either the 3e adventurers win by cheese, or they die.

Colmarr
2009-02-25, 05:55 PM
Stuff

Something tells me you posted this to the wrong thread :smallsmile: