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arguskos
2009-02-24, 03:00 AM
I need the Playground's assistance with the two most impossible to hurt characters you can produce for me.

Rules:
1. Core only. This is not debatable. Note that I don't mean SRD, I mean PHB and DMG only.

2. Standard WBL. No funny stuff, like partially charged wands.

3. It's for a new DM, so keep the cheese low (so no obviously questionable rulings, everything by RAW).

4. Level 5. Stat generation to be determined, but rolls for damned sure. No point-buy.

5. Beyond that, go wild!

My thoughts:

Dwarf Monk 2/Paladin 2/??? 1. Amazingly good saves, good HP, decent-ish AC. Not sure what to take for the last level though...

Something Monk 1/Druid 4. Good saves/AC/HP. Spells+Wild Shape=powerhouse.

Thoughts? Halps (much needed, thanks)?

Zaq
2009-02-24, 03:19 AM
I don't have any details in mind, but I think a properly built cleric might be able to come up with some pretty obscenely high amounts of defense. Two good saves, heavy armor, and the best access to divine casting in the game can't be all bad, can it? Dwarves are probably the best race to be for the save boost and con boost... most of the really spectacular defensive spells aren't core, of course, but still, we all know that divine magic is really strong for buffing, so it shouldn't be too hard to pump out some good defenses.

Alternatively, by 5th level a wizard can get their miss chance up to really disgustingly high levels with invisibility, mirror image, displacement, blink, and all that good stuff, but that requires several rounds to buff beforehand, whereas a cleric at least has their saves, their armor, and a passable hit die before their initiative comes up. I'd have to go with the Cleric overall.

Of course, I hardly need to tell you that optimizing defense in core-only isn't usually wise, because almost all of the ways of forcing enemy attention upon yourself came later (leading to "Oh no! A Dwarven Defender! Everyone, walk briskly!" syndrome), but that wasn't the question, now was it?

Zincorium
2009-02-24, 03:23 AM
Dwarf paladin/monk is kind of a no-go as far as optimization (which seems to be the key of your request). It is supremely MAD (Multiple Ability Dependant), and your race both slows you down and doesn't give a bonus (and even gives a penalty) to the stats which would make you useful. The fact that you're rolling for ability scores means you cannot be sure you'll get good scores in strength, dexterity, wisdom, and charisma.

At this point, Druid 5 is probably the build which combines the most initial power (as you'd start with wildshape and an animal companion) and has strong potential going forward. Wizard is just getting third level spells, so you might have a better deal with that, but wizards take skill and insight into the metagame party mechanics to work well.

Druids are easy. If you're doing core, take human or gnome for race, the feat or the constitution bonus (as strength and dexterity don't matter much after level 5 for a druid) are the biggest bennies you can get.

arguskos
2009-02-24, 03:23 AM
This, notably, is for a trap/puzzle dungeon that has been claimed to be VERY lethal, meaning my defenses need to be static. Spells are nice, but not on 24/7.

Oh, and it's a one-shot, so my stats just need to keep me alive, not deal much damage, though the Dwarf Pal/Mnk issues is noted. Thanks. Any other advice?

ravenkith
2009-02-24, 03:29 AM
There are some ac records out there.

THen there are saves-centric characters.

Then there are those that favor gaining damage prevention methods.

What exactly are you looking for? googling 'new ac record' may prove productive...

At higher levels, I like the Sorcadin/Abjurant Champion/Sacred Exorcist for being tough to hurt (when buffed).

Killer Gnome might be a good way to go for AC....

Zincorium
2009-02-24, 03:51 AM
This, notably, is for a trap/puzzle dungeon that has been claimed to be VERY lethal, meaning my defenses need to be static. Spells are nice, but not on 24/7.

Traps and puzzles? Um, yeah. Rogue if you don't know for sure there will be one. Or even just a level of rogue in a ranger build or something.

I, personally, would go barbarian for the trapsense, uncanny dodge, and massive rage damage. Possibly adding in some fighter.


Oh, and it's a one-shot, so my stats just need to keep me alive, not deal much damage, though the Dwarf Pal/Mnk issues is noted. Thanks. Any other advice?

Key to D&D:
Doing damage is how you keep yourself alive, and the rest of the party alive, and any prisoners who need rescue alive, and so forth.

Why? Because dead enemies can't hurt you or anyone else. Live ones, however, always have a chance of getting you dead at lower levels, and there is nothing a non-caster can do in a Core-only game to prevent them from attacking your weaker allies.

An orc with a greataxe can one-shot a raging barbarian at lower levels, trying to hold a score of them off for several rounds dramatically increases the likelihood of that happening.

arguskos
2009-02-24, 03:58 AM
I've been playing and DMing D&D specifically for 12 years. Believe me, I know that axiom better than most. :smallbiggrin:

However, in a trap dungeon with the express goal of "Stay alive" where most traps aren't able to be disabled, what am I supposed to do? Be a barbarian ubercharger? That's not amazingly helpful. :smallwink:

As for Rogue, that was something I considered, but I just asked, and there's a Trapsmasher Barbarian in the group already as the other character, so it's not really useful to have.

I can try a Wizard 5, though I feel it would be amazingly reliant on wands and the like to make it through the dungeon completely. Druid 5 might be good though. Shame there's no +Wis races in Core. :smallannoyed:

Lessee... Human Druid 5 and... Dwarf Wizard 5? Dwarf has save bonuses and +Con, always good for taking on traps. Problem is Ref saves. >_>

arguskos
2009-02-24, 04:00 AM
I've been playing and DMing D&D specifically for 12 years. Believe me, I know that axiom better than most. :smallbiggrin:

However, in a trap dungeon with the express goal of "Stay alive" where most traps aren't able to be disabled, what am I supposed to do? Be a barbarian ubercharger? That's not amazingly helpful. :smallwink:

As for Rogue, that was something I considered, but I just asked, and there's a Trapsmasher Barbarian in the group already as the other character, so it's not really useful to have.

I can try a Wizard 5, though I feel it would be amazingly reliant on wands and the like to make it through the dungeon completely. Druid 5 might be good though. Shame there's no +Wis races in Core. :smallannoyed:

Lessee... Human Druid 5 and... Dwarf Wizard 5? Dwarf has save bonuses and +Con, always good for taking on traps. Problem is Ref saves. >_>

Eldariel
2009-02-24, 04:39 AM
I'd make them both Dwarves, Gnomes or Halflings. With 20 Con if possible. And heavy use of summons to run into traps and such. Alas, you're one level short of Leadership to blow up the joint. On those levels, Druidx2 might be the better setup. After all, you get free monkeys to go along and have healing and decent HD and your primary stats into saves. Of course, lacking Natural Spell sucks, but you still have Wildshape for 5 hours when you need to switch to asskickery mode.

ravenkith
2009-02-24, 04:30 PM
I know you are going to hate me, but, you want to be hard to kill?

Wizard 5
Rope Trick + Metamagic Rod Of Extend Spell (Lesser) (3k, I think).

Always have one rope trick prepared per day, rest for ten hours at a time, pulling the rope up after you. At that level, very few enemies have the ability to see invisible.

Get a wand of mount. Send the resultant critter (which lasts an hour) ahead of you to trigger traps.

Make sure you've got a way to bypass adamantine doors. A bashzerker, without an adamantine weapon, will take too long (not enough cash for adamantine, I don't think).

Mmmm, Shatter is your friend.

Draz74
2009-02-24, 05:07 PM
Gnome Paladin with maxxed CON. Plate mail, heavy shield, Cloak of Resistance +2, high CHA, size bonus to AC, and a Special Mount to provide an extra pool of HP.

Person_Man
2009-02-24, 05:28 PM
Halfling Paladin 5 who always rides his Special Mount. Use a lance two handed. Mounted Combat and Ride by Attack. Take Leadership to boost your mount into something cool. Buy magic armor, an animated shield, an amulet of natural armor, and a cloak of resistance.

If your DM doesn't allow Leadership, then go Paladin 2/Fighter 4 or just Fighter 6, and buy a Figurine of Wondrous Power to ride on. Pick up Spirited Charge, Combat Reflexes, and Power Attack (again, remember to use your lance two handed).