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Smeggedoff
2009-02-24, 02:05 PM
Tomorrow I'm joining a D&D game that's been going for a few weeks. most of the characters in play are melee monkeys (a warblade, a rogue, a paladin and a cleric/bard working towards ardent dillitante) so I've decided to play a spellcaster. (genned at lvl 7, no houserules)
I'm interested in trying Initiate of the sevenfold veil, so I'll be playing a human wizard, my current build looking like this



where an X represents an unassigned feat

1 Abjurer-------------------------X,X
2 Abjurer
3 Abjurer-------------------------Spell Focus: Abjuration
4 Master Specialist: Abjurer-------Free: Skill Focus: Spellcraft
5 Master Specialist: Abjurer
6 Master Specialist: Abjurer-------X
7 Master Specialist: Abjurer
8 Master Specialist: Abjurer
9 Master Specialist: Abjurer-------Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration
10 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
11 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
12 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil----Extraordinary Spell Aim
13 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
14 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
15 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil----X
16 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
17 Master Specialist: Abjurer
18 Master Specialist: Abjurer-------X
19 Master Specialist: Abjurer
20 Master Specialist: Abjurer


none of the other characters are optimised so I'm not looking for a batman wizard or anything, I'm just wondering what type of feats I should be taking? are improved/reactive counterspell worth it? would it cripple me if I took Have Familiar>improved familiar?

has anyone played this type of build before? as an abjurer how should I be acting most of the time?

any help, advice or even just sotries of abjurers you've played before would be appreciated as I'm not used to playing a pure caster

thanks :)

Eldariel
2009-02-24, 02:14 PM
Improved Counterspell-line is only worth it if you go Epic. Before Epic Counterspell, the feat-line sucks. The only worthwhile Counterspelling feat is the "Divine Defiance" [FCII], which would require Turn Undead and level 3 divine casting. Other than that, use magic and items.

Improved Familiar is fine. That said, make sure you really want it. Do note that Greater Spell Focus is also a bonus from Master Specialist. You'll want metamagic. Extend Spell and Quicken Spell seem solid for you. Sculpt Spell is alright too.

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-24, 02:18 PM
As far as how to act goes, I'd say you should focus on stopping yourself and your allies coming to any harm while buffing them. Which schools did you bar?

Fax Celestis
2009-02-24, 02:18 PM
Improved Counterspell-line is only worth it if you go Epic. Before Epic Counterspell, the feat-line sucks. The only worthwhile Counterspelling feat is the "Divine Defiance" [FCII], which would require Turn Undead and level 3 divine casting. Other than that, use magic and items.

Lies. There's a spell (Battlefield Tactics or something like that) out of Heroes of Battle (and updated into Spell Compendium) that makes countering amazing. Alternatively, talk to your DM about using the "Adaptation" line for the Noctumancer from Tome of Magic: they get the ability to counter as an immediate action.

Eldariel
2009-02-24, 02:19 PM
Lies. There's a spell (Battlefield Tactics or something like that) out of Heroes of Battle (and updated into Spell Compendium) that makes countering amazing..

Note how I specifically said "feats" and mentioned "you should use items and magic instead" specifically referring to Battlemagic Perception, Ring of Spell-Battle and the like.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-24, 02:22 PM
Note how I specifically said "feats" and mentioned "you should use items and magic instead" specifically referring to Battlemagic Perception, Ring of Spell-Battle and the like.

Oops. Can you tell I'm having an off-day? :smallwink:

Eldariel
2009-02-24, 02:23 PM
Oops. Can you tell I'm having an off-day? :smallwink:

They let you take days off? My contract is 24/7/365 :(

Smeggedoff
2009-02-24, 02:28 PM
ah, awesome thanks. I'll look up that spell and some of the items. apparantly the DM's been somewhat generous with the treasure

the metamagic should fill some of the gaps in my feats niceley. my main problem with improved familiar is that since I'd only actually have 3 levels of wizard I'd need to take the feat that nets you a familiar for all you caster levels too.
(on a side note, if I did that, would I be able to trade in my original familiar for the variant abjurer ability from unearthed arcana?)


As far as how to act goes, I'd say you should focus on stopping yourself and your allies coming to any harm while buffing them. Which schools did you bar? (A Massive Attack song called Protection would probably be a good theme for an Abjurer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvtmwlsNFb0 .)

barred schools as necromancy and enchantment at the moment (until I recieve any contradictory advice)

Tempest Fennac
2009-02-24, 02:39 PM
Those both fit quite well. Evocation could be another option if you want to playup the defender-type roll.

Eldariel
2009-02-24, 02:40 PM
I suggest barring Evocation over either; Enhancement has some nice buffs and Necromancy has some nice offense. Evocation has maybe 3 worthwhile spells, all of which you can mimic with Greater Shadow Evocation. Outside Force-effects and Contingency, you can pretty much mimic everything Evocation does with Conjuration or Necromancy.

And yes, you can trade your familiar away for e.g. the UA Abjurer-ability. That said, I wouldn't bother as that's pretty poor. You could try the one in PHBII instead. But really, you don't need to Obtain Familiar; familiars' important functions (HD, skills, HP) are defined by your character level. Only random stuff comes from class levels and you'll be just fine with level 3 in those.

Smeggedoff
2009-02-24, 03:04 PM
hmm, after a quick check that tells me the orb spells are conjuration, I see your point. I guess I'll take Necromancy and Evocation as my Barred Schools, as the hold monster etc stuff might help towards the protector role.

I think I'll skip improved familiar then as those three caster levels will just about get me "deliver touch spell" (plus none of the lvl 3 imp familiars are great)

kyoten
2009-02-24, 03:23 PM
Where's this Master Specialists located?

Smeggedoff
2009-02-24, 03:26 PM
Complete Mage, Pg 70

Smeggedoff
2009-02-24, 04:32 PM
before I start taking metamagic, I've got 6 feats to play with. is it worth getting quicken, still and silent spell, then throwing in Innate Spell: Dispel Magic?
the problem I see with this is that battlefield perception ends when you use it to dispel something, so I can't think of a way to keep that up permanantly :-/

Also the ring you mentioned does the same thing as the spell, but the dispel comes from the ring, so I'm not sure if I'd be able to use my own countermagic with it.

Douglas
2009-02-24, 05:01 PM
Reactive Counterspell may make the counterspelling line of feats viable pre-epic, though it's still essentially negating both you and the enemy caster at the same time.

Smeggedoff
2009-02-24, 05:28 PM
well both Battlemagic perception and the ring of Spell Battle allow the counterspell as a free action. (the spell allowing you to counterspell by your own methods, the ring counterspelling from its own power)
the problem is, that even though battlemagic perception lasts 10 min/level as soon as you use the conterspell as free action thing it drops and needs to be recast, and the ring only counterspells 1/day (but still allows you to identify spells being cast easily)
so after these two you're back to needing to ready an action to counterspell, I guess that's still two rounds of combat During which you get to gimp a caster and throw up your own protective magic (3 if you have two rings, or can cast BMP as a quickened spell after the first one's fizzled)

um, I think I just solved my own problem there, a wand of quickened battle magic perception and a wand of Dispel magic should piss of most casting opponents while allowing me to cast normally...

er...i'm going to go back to picking feats now ).)

Nate the Snake
2009-02-24, 06:35 PM
is it worth getting quicken, still and silent spell, then throwing in Innate Spell: Dispel Magic?

Innate Spell costs a spell slot eight levels higher than the spell in question, so an Innate Dispel Magic (11th-level slot) is impossible pre-epic. And it's not technically metamagic, so reducing spell level adjustments won't help. Interesting idea, though.

Quicken Spell's still not a bad choice.

Smeggedoff
2009-02-24, 07:36 PM
*bangs head off desk*
that'll teach me to read the whole thing, I knoew that sounded too good to be true.
ah well, I'll probably still be taking quicken or/and sudden quicken, it also occurs to me, if you share a battlemagic perception spell with your familiar, if you have a familiar that could use wands, and they took advantage of the spell to counterspell a casting. would the battlemagic perception drop off both of you? or just off the familiar?
if it's the latter, surely that means you can re-share the spell and keep it going for the full duration

Keld Denar
2009-02-24, 07:44 PM
Instead of a Ring of Spellbattle, consider a Ring of Greater Counterspells(DMGII). Load it up with your own Greater Dispel Magic and it'll fire that to counterspell. Thats much better. Also, you can reload it with GDM's in between combats.

And really, the first 2 spells in a given combat should be enough. Since you always know what is being cast (check the discription of BMP and RoGCS), you can choose what to CS and what not to. Your opponent can't "psych" you out with a Magic Missile, cause you know what's coming. If its not something that you feel will cause a huge impact on the battle, (for example, baddie casts Phantasmal Killer, but your party ate a Hero's Feast for breakfast) just let it go. Then hit him with a Greater Dispel Magic to strip his buffs and have your party tear him apart like a pack of rabid mongooses.

And in actuality, you know what the best counterspell to ready is? Empowered Orb of Fire to the face. Weighing in at ~79 average damage, that causes a DC 90 Concentration check to cast even a 1st level spell. I know skill checks are easy to boost, but come on, thats ludacris. Also, the fort save vs daze would disrupt the spell on a failed save, even if the damage didn't. POW, right in the kisser.

EDIT:
And having your familar CS from a wand is a pretty bad idea. A) the wand costs you 11250 gold, or 225 a charge; and B) the wand would probably be at minimum CL (5th) and thus have very little chance to CS anything by the level you could afford it; C) If you made the wand at CL 10, it would then cost you 22500 gold, or 450 a charge and still have a crappy chance to counter; and D) the wand would not benefit from your Master Specialist ability, even if you made it yourself. You'd be better off giving your familiar a Wand of Scorching Ray and hoping your opponent fails the concentration check.

Waylor
2009-02-24, 07:45 PM
Ok, after almost finishing castle ravenloft with a abjurer there are my tips:

dont take counterspelling feats, master specialist (abjurer) and that object from MIC that gives +2 to dispelling 5 times/day (and it was cheap 1.000 gp if i remember correctly) is enough to counter/dispell everything. At lvl 7 you will have a 7 (caster lvl) + 2 (MS) + 2 (knot whatever, the item).

Ban evocation(or illusion)/necromancy, i took focused especialist and banned enchantment. There are some extra dispell spells in the SpC and PHBII that you should have.

For offensive, at low lvls i used a couple spells from SpC, one is adivination, will save or roll twice and take the worse, that one is a win button. Theres another iron bands? reflex or inmovilized, if successful entangled.

I was buffing people all day, casting 1-2 spells per combat (one lvl 3 + another lvl 1-2 if needed). its wasnt a optimized party and worked really well :P

Abjurer
2009-02-24, 07:52 PM
Yay! Good choice of arcane specialization!

A ring of spell-battle is always nice if you're going for a counterspeller.
Also, my favorite spell ever is Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

I would have suggested a lot of what I see here, especially the swift spells from PHBII, and the counterspelling feats.

Cheers! :smallbiggrin:

Smeggedoff
2009-02-24, 07:54 PM
awesome, I'm getting a good feel of what I'm going to take now.
when I actually start I'll come back and post my finalised build if anyone's interested.
I wouldn't say no to more advice etc in the mean time though

thanks everyone

Keld Denar
2009-02-24, 07:59 PM
The object is called Dispelling Cord, and yea, its a pretty good item to fill your waist slot. Its not a bonus to your CL, but rather a competance bonus to the check, meaning it gets around the level caps normally associate with dispel magics. I don't recall of the top of my head what type of bonus Master Specialist gets, but as long as its not a competance bonus, it'll stack just fine.

And the spell you mentioned which causes a foe to save twice per spell is called Unluck. I personally think its bad, because from an action economy PoV, if they fail the save vs Unluck, they could have just as easily failed the save against something like Glitterdust which as an immediate effect of ending the fight now, rather than waiting till the next round to set up the 1-2 punch. If you really want a 1-2 punch, Enervation is your man because its the most powerful no-save debuff to saves short of Limited Wish...

Bands of Steel, the other you mentioned, is really good. One of the few Reflex save spells that is a disable rather than a blast and great against enemy clerics and wizards.

MichielHagen
2009-02-25, 03:26 AM
"9 Master Specialist: Abjurer-------Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration"

don't you get GSF for free at like...lvl 3 or 4 Master Specialist?

Smeggedoff
2009-02-26, 01:03 PM
yup, eldariel pointed that out earlier. saved me a feat :)

first session went rather poorly due to a less than optimal selection of spells on my part, and a rushed last minute selection of feats.
This left me with few useful utility spells for what we were doing and conserving my attack spells in combat
so if my DM lets me change one thing I'll be using this build


once again, where X notes an unchosen feat
Banned schools: Necromancy, Evocation

1 Abjurer-------------------------Spell Focus: Abjuration, Arcane Mastery(CAr)
2 Abjurer
3 Abjurer-------------------------Point Blank Shot
4 Master Specialist: Abjurer--------Free: Skill Focus: Spellcraft
5 Master Specialist: Abjurer
6 Master Specialist: Abjurer--------Acidic Splatter(reserve), Free: Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration
7 Master Specialist: Abjurer
8 Master Specialist: Abjurer
9 Master Specialist: Abjurer--------X
10 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
11 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
12 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil-----Extraordinary Spell Aim(CAr)
13 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
14 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
15 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil-----Elven Spell Lore(PHII)
16 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
17 Master Specialist: Abjurer
18 Master Specialist: Abjurer--------X
19 Master Specialist: Abjurer
20 Master Specialist: Abjurer

this means I can use acidic splatter instead of attack spells (the majority of damage seemed to come from the warblade and the paladin in the party anyway) leaving me more spell slots to take some utility spells
(would Alacritous Cogitation be a good choice for 9th level maybe? or even to replace point blank shot at 3rd, I keep forgetting to factor it in anyway)

our loot generous DM gave us each 20000 gold to play with and I managed to snag an iron golem manual from the pile.
I'm considering buying a ring of greater counterspelling for 16k and buying some more spells with the rest to boost my arsenal as we're expecting an attack on the town at dawn (otherwise I'd drop 10k on an iron statue)

any comments or advice on this?