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JMobius
2009-02-24, 04:35 PM
While running a game the other day, I had to hastily assemble an encounter for my level 2 party. The result was one vine horror and six fire beetles. 800 XP, I believe, and supposedly moderately challenging for a group of 5.

This encounter very nearly resulted in a TPK, though they managed to scrape by with just one fatality. Now, I'm not 100% certain I selected the set of monsters properly, as I'm still new to GMing 4E, but it seems to me at least the fire beetles are very brutal for their level.

I'm curious if anyone else knows of any monsters they feel might be a bit off-level. I and am not quite experienced enough yet to make that call just by eyeballing, and I'd prefer to avoid future unintentionally difficult encounters. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-24, 04:38 PM
While running a game the other day, I had to hastily assemble an encounter for my level 2 party. The result was one vine horror and six fire beetles. 800 XP, I believe, and supposedly moderately challenging for a group of 5.

This encounter very nearly resulted in a TPK, though they managed to scrape by with just one fatality. Now, I'm not 100% certain I selected the set of monsters properly, as I'm still new to GMing 4E, but it seems to me at least the fire beetles are very brutal for their level.

I'm curious if anyone else knows of any monsters they feel might be a bit off-level. I and am not quite experienced enough yet to make that call just by eyeballing, and I'd prefer to avoid future unintentionally difficult encounters. Thanks. :smallsmile:


Fire beetles are freaking crazy. At low levels, they and Needlefang Drake swarms really stand out as overpowered. I can't think of anything else off the top of my head, but there are probably some higher-level beasties that are equally, disproportionately strong.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-24, 04:42 PM
So far, here's what we've found:
- Fire Beetles are definitely at least LV 2
- Swarms in general are nastier than their level; Needledrake Fang Swarm doubly so
- Solo Monsters aren't. A well-coordinated party can take down a solo monster of the appropriate level will no problem; include some other monsters around (at least minions) to prevent that.

Anything I missed?

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-24, 04:50 PM
So far, here's what we've found:
- Fire Beetles are definitely at least LV 2
- Swarms in general are nastier than their level; Needledrake Fang Swarm doubly so
- Solo Monsters aren't. A well-coordinated party can take down a solo monster of the appropriate level will no problem; include some other monsters around (at least minions) to prevent that.

Anything I missed?

I don't agree with that, but I have almost never used a MM solo so I can't really talk. I would recommend using custom solos anyway, as they are supposed to be memorable and original encounters. I'd also recommend trying out environmental hazards in solo encounters to help mitigate the action advantage of the PC's.

Doug Lampert
2009-02-24, 04:55 PM
So far, here's what we've found:
- Fire Beetles are definitely at least LV 2
- Swarms in general are nastier than their level; Needledrake Fang Swarm doubly so
- Solo Monsters aren't. A well-coordinated party can take down a solo monster of the appropriate level will no problem; include some other monsters around (at least minions) to prevent that.

Anything I missed?
Non-ranged attacking minions are only worth about 1/2 their listed XP unless the party is fooled into thinking they're standards (ranged attacking minions are also not worth their XP but are closer).

Thus baring special circumstances 8 minions is about as effective as a standard not the 4 stated in the rules. (There are simply too many ways to take out minions faster than the expected 4x as fast as a standard.)

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-24, 04:56 PM
I don't agree with that, but I have almost never used a MM solo so I can't really talk. I would recommend using custom solos anyway, as they are supposed to be memorable and original encounters. I'd also recommend trying out environmental hazards in solo encounters to help mitigate the action advantage of the PC's.

I've not done it either, but that is my received wisdom from hanging out on the boards for awhile. I can see how that'd work too - a well coordinated party can lock down and pound a single target pretty easily. I don't know whether the higher defenses & such of solo monsters are sufficient to overcome that, so more study is necessary, I guess.

Doug Lampert
2009-02-24, 04:59 PM
I don't agree with that, but I have almost never used a MM solo so I can't really talk. I would recommend using custom solos anyway, as they are supposed to be memorable and original encounters. I'd also recommend trying out environmental hazards in solo encounters to help mitigate the action advantage of the PC's.
I was also going to disagree about solos, and then realized that I've NEVER used a MM solo as the only creature in an encounter, so I really don't know if they're any good.

My party also isn't big on debuffs, which I suspect makes solos look a bit stronger.

Saph
2009-02-24, 05:09 PM
As has already been mentioned, the two seriously overpowered monsters of low-level 4e are Fire Beetles and Needlefang Drake Swarms. I wrote a post on Needlefang Swarms here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89516).

From what I've seen, the order of monster difficulty in 4e goes like this, from easiest to hardest:

Minions > Solos > Elites > Regulars

Minions are easy to kill at level 1 and just keep getting easier. Solos have a lot of HP, but are still relatively easy to take down by overwhelming them with weight of numbers - it just takes time. To a lesser degree the same goes for Elites.

Surprisingly, it's the regular monsters that are the most dangerous by far. This is because regular monsters come in large numbers, meaning the party has no action advantage over them. It's not a coincidence that the two nastiest monsters mentioned above are both regulars.

- Saph

holywhippet
2009-02-24, 05:26 PM
In some cases though, the elites aren't meant to be a killing machine in their own right - they are tough, but their main danger lies in making minions/regulars more effective.

JMobius
2009-02-24, 06:17 PM
If solos go down that hard just due to the action gap, then that's rather disappointing. Seems like it'd make for some anticlimactic boss fights...

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-24, 06:28 PM
If solos go down that hard just due to the action gap, then that's rather disappointing. Seems like it'd make for some anticlimactic boss fights...

I have not experienced this with my own solos. I am sure you can also trump this by creating your own monsters.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-24, 06:31 PM
As mentioned, Fire Beetles and Needlefang Drake Swarms are vicious. I really have no idea how WotC missed them.

As for the Solos, I'm inclined to disagree. Granted I've only run Solos a couple times, and against decidedly non-optimizers. For instance, the White Dragon at the end of the short DMG adventure wiped the floor with them (or at least it would've, if I hadn't fudged half a dozen rolls).

If you're worried about a Solo turning anticlimactic, then I suggest you toss in several regular/minion monsters that are a couple levels lower than the party. It gives them something else they have to focus on, CA for the Solo, and more actions.

And the key with making minions dangerous is abusing the number of extra actions they make available. And dear god take out that Wizard ASAP. :smalltongue:

Tech
2009-02-24, 06:32 PM
Solos generally blow because they only have their set of actions as opposed to the huge set of actions by the PCs. An easy way to rectify this is to give them lots of interrupt abilities, minor action attacks, a second set of actions, and et cetera.

Elites are vicious though.

Mando Knight
2009-02-24, 06:40 PM
Well... a Solo of the players' level is about an easy or moderate encounter... which can easily be countered by throwing out a higher-level Solo...

...like TIAMAT. (J/K. Tiamat slaughter-nates everything she looks at. Not an appropriate encounter for nearly any party without Uber-Cheese.)

Limos
2009-02-24, 06:47 PM
Well it might be because you had chosen a monster party made for a level 5 party and used it on a level 2 party. I don't think you should use encounters meant to be more than 2 levels ahead of your players.

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-24, 06:59 PM
Well it might be because you had chosen a monster party made for a level 5 party and used it on a level 2 party. I don't think you should use encounters meant to be more than 2 levels ahead of your players.

I think the given gap is +/- 5 actually, and tbh you can stray outside that with the right monsters and be okay, just don't make them impossible to hit or have an auto-win button.

Fire Beetles are overpowered anyway, though I can see your point that their area attack combined with the entangle of the Vine Horror (and ongoing 10, I think?) would have been a nasty combo.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-24, 10:22 PM
If solos go down that hard just due to the action gap, then that's rather disappointing. Seems like it'd make for some anticlimactic boss fights...

It's not so bad.

All you have to do is give the boss some assistant mooks, or put some static hazards into the room; the PCs just need to be unable to focus all their firepower on the one baddie without risking anything.

At least, that's the fix I've heard about the problem; my PCs are still fighting goblins :smalltongue:

LoopyZebra
2009-02-24, 10:57 PM
My players nearly had a TPK from Rot Scarab Swarms (atleast, I think that's their name; afb). They seemed particularly deadly because of their aura of damage and the amount of damage they could do. However, I accidentally had one too many in the encounter, so that may have unbalanced them. They still seemed particularly tough when they all focused their fire on a single target.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-24, 11:05 PM
My players nearly had a TPK from Rot Scarab Swarms (atleast, I think that's their name; afb). They seemed particularly deadly because of their aura of damage and the amount of damage they could do. However, I accidentally had one too many in the encounter, so that may have unbalanced them. They still seemed particularly tough when they all focused their fire on a single target.

Swarms I say! Swarms!

Particularly when you have more than one in an encounter, they seem to cause problems - maybe it's because of aura overlap? Stacking auto-damage is no fun :smallyuk:

LoopyZebra
2009-02-24, 11:12 PM
Yeah, that was the main problem. Like I said, I'm away from books, but I just remember there being way too much damage being dealt in any given turn, not any particular debuff given to the players or particular resistance of the monsters. (The players had a Wizard specializing in making things go BOOM, so the swarm resistances weren't as damaging as they might have been.)

Also funny: the players had a group of city guards under their command, whom I treated like minions. The guards died whenever they got close to the scarabs. After that, the players refused to use them in direct combat.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-24, 11:28 PM
Also funny: the players had a group of city guards under their command, whom I treated like minions. The guards died whenever they got close to the scarabs. After that, the players refused to use them in direct combat.

Remember kids: if you have minions, give them ranged weapons.

This is why Pope Innocent II banned crossbows in 1139 AD - someone gave a bunch of peasants crossbows and went to town!

DiscipleofBob
2009-02-24, 11:41 PM
Two Words:

Guard Drakes

Maybe not as vicious as some of the other examples here, but still a real pain when you come across 2 in a level 1 adventure. And you thought one-shot PC kills were gone forever in 4e. :smallannoyed:

JMobius
2009-02-24, 11:53 PM
Two Words:

Guard Drakes

Maybe not as vicious as some of the other examples here, but still a real pain when you come across 2 in a level 1 adventure. And you thought one-shot PC kills were gone forever in 4e. :smallannoyed:

Heh. My boss fight for 1st level was 1 needlefang swarm, 1 rage drake, and 3 guard drakes. They pretty much aced that one, though.

TheOOB
2009-02-25, 02:00 AM
While not every monster is as balanced as they should be, at least it's better then 3e. It should be noted that party composition and tactics greatly change how tough certain monsters are. My party fought an encounter with several needlefang drakes at their level, but we had lots of AoE(a wizard, a laser cleric, and a fighter who focused on the AoE techniques), so it's wasn't all that bad.

On the other hand we where fighting some animated statues in one of the intro adventures before 4e came out and they whipped us good.

Kol Korran
2009-02-25, 02:16 AM
hhhmmmmm, i'll be first time DMing (in 4e, DMed in 3.5 this past few years) soon enough, and i'm preparing my campaign and adventures. i thought at time to use fire beetles and needlefang swarms (on different encounters) for low level parties. they were meant to be as "on the way" encounters, not the main beef.

good i read the boards from time to time, i guess... and i thought that the needle fang weren't serious enough so the encounter was to take place in a swamp, the characters on a large boat, with the lizzards climbing down the trees and running over the water to engage them from all sides.

now i realise that "damn! that would have been a serious TPK!" (though the image of skeletons in chewed armor floating in a boat on the swamp does bring a smile to my face)

thanks boarders! two more questions to follow:
1- any other monsters that are over/ under powered? or a combination of monsters?
2- can solos (due to the concensus on the thread) be fixed by just givning them an extra standard action? i thing it's even mentioned in the DM. that should close the action gap i think...

(note: i'm going on a 2-3 days vacation so i won't be able to see or respond to messages till then. thanks in advance!)

Kol

OneFamiliarFace
2009-02-25, 02:38 AM
I think the given gap is +/- 5 actually, and tbh you can stray outside that with the right monsters and be okay, just don't make them impossible to hit or have an auto-win button.

I think you are right about that gap, but the higher level monsters, when used, can often create a challenge 3 levels greater than the party, and those are significantly harder challenges. I would say that higher level monsters should only be included with careful consideration or terrain in favor of the players. This is because a higher level monster hits harder and is harder to hit than the players may be able to handle (especially if they are not optimized).

Aside from Needlefang swarms, I think most swarms are OP'd in large part because players have not learned to fear them yet. As such, they often get many more actions in one round than a normal monster (the 1 for their turn, and then 1 against anyone who is standing in them).

Townopolis
2009-02-25, 02:54 AM
I've found stormclaw scorpions to be pretty nasty. Probably not on the level of needlefang drakes, but not something to be taken lightly.*

*of course, I was in a party with no push powers and my paladin ended up grabbed in the middle of the wizard's Ice Cloud Daily thing.

Myshlaevsky
2009-02-25, 03:05 AM
Swarms I say! Swarms!

Particularly when you have more than one in an encounter, they seem to cause problems - maybe it's because of aura overlap? Stacking auto-damage is no fun :smallyuk:

This actually reminded me of an encounter I ran that was almost lethal for the PC's. It was a hag, two giant spiders and two bloodweb spider swarms. The (NPC) hag began hidden, got the drop on the party rogue who was scouting ahead, and the swarms flowed into the tunnel the PC's were in while the spiders blocked the exit.

In this case I feel the terrain disadvantage counts for far more than the swarms, but bloodweb spider swarms should still be noted as a tough monster. I later had an encounter with them as a player that was classed as an 'easy' encounter and proved to be very dangerous.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-25, 03:20 AM
Well it might be because you had chosen a monster party made for a level 5 party and used it on a level 2 party. I don't think you should use encounters meant to be more than 2 levels ahead of your players.

This is very true - monster XP grows much slower than monster strength, which means that a monster who gives 2X XP is a much harder challenge than two monsters worth X XP each.

Nightson
2009-02-25, 03:34 AM
This is very true - monster XP grows much slower than monster strength, which means that a monster who gives 2X XP is a much harder challenge than two monsters worth X XP each.

?

I don't think this is borne out by actual monster stats, could you post some examples?

Tengu_temp
2009-02-25, 03:58 AM
Of course. What do you think is a more level-appropriate encounter for a level 1 party?

2 Goblin Warriors
1 Goblin Blackblade
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Goblin Cutters

or

1 Chuul

Nightson
2009-02-25, 04:42 AM
But you said a monster giving twice the XP, so it would be a Chuul versus say 2 Sahuagin Raiders. I mean of course the system will break eventually, you'll push up to too high a level, but the system doesn't seem to break where you said it broke. Multiplying by three would probably break it.

Edit: Or basically, the DMG says that XP works for assigning value to encounter difficulty so long as monsters are +/-5 from the party level. If a 2X XP was really more difficult then 2 X XP monsters then it would indicate that the system didn't work.

potatocubed
2009-02-25, 05:19 AM
Dwarf Hammerers are pretty savage, although I was using them (level 5)against a level 2 party, so maybe that was it. Zombie Hounds (level 3 vs. level 1 party) also caused more trouble than I expected, as did Stormclaw Scorpions (level 1 vs. level 3 party).

Two general rules of thumb I have discovered:
- Knockdown effects are nasty.
- Soldiers are more dangerous than other monster types.

I've only run my party against one solo (level 3 party vs. level 4 solo) and it was... close. On the other hand I did select his powers to complement his strengths (ranged attacks, control) and mitigate his weaknesses (relatively low hp, crappy defences). I think the trick to making solos not suck is careful design - AoE attacks and interrupt powers make up for the action advantage a bit, as does having a bajillion hit points.

Kurald Galain
2009-02-25, 05:21 AM
Particularly when you have more than one in an encounter, they seem to cause problems - maybe it's because of aura overlap?

Auras don't stack.

(at least, the "start your turn here and take X damage" kind doesn't stack; the one that says "start your turn here and the monster gets a free attack" does)


Anyway, from my experience so far, 4E does not do solo battles well (with the possible exception of dragons, which were given much more attention because they're so iconic). They tend to get repetitive, because of the huge amount of hit points to grind through (unless you get lucky with a sleep spell). To make a battle fun, use 5-10 regular opponents of various kinds, a dozen minions, and some creative terrain.