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MustacheFart
2009-02-24, 09:28 PM
Hey all,

Ever since I saw the Avenging Executioner PrC I've been wanting to play it. I have a few questions though. To me it looks good but is the PrC really worth a damn? How could I go about optimizing a build with it? That is how could I take full advantage of the PrC?

I know it uses charisma a lot (for its fear effects) so is there a class that grants charisma to damage and/or attacks? Anyway to furthor synergize the required stats and cut down on MAD I think would be good.


I kind of just want to play a really vicious melee character in a game. Not a two-weapon fighter but someone who just charges in and slaughters his enemy with a big ol' weapon. I know this sounds like a basic Ubercharger but I've played enough of them and I find them boring now.

Someone like Gattsu from Berzerk would fit the bill well.

kabof
2009-02-24, 10:36 PM
A Bard/Paladin of Slaughter can do easily what you want: Divine Might, Slippers of Battledance and Snowflake Wardance will add your Cha twice both to attack and damage. Divine Grace will take care of your saves. You'll problably need the Travel Devotion feat to active the Slippers with ease.

I hope that helps.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-25, 10:38 AM
Going Hexblade 3/Rogue 3 before going into Avenging Executioner is viable, and gets you Cha-to-Saves v arcane.

The other thing to try is stacking as many kinds of fear as you can. Avenging Executioners hit with a radius fear effect whenever they Sudden Strike someone. There are some feats that have similar effects: in particular, the Daunting Presence (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Daunting_Presence,LM) > Death Master (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Death_Master,LM) > Eviscerator (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Eviscerator,LM) chain; there's no real reason that Eviscerator requires the undead type, but you could be necropolitan or something if your DM won't let you qualify. Couple those with the Telling Blow (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Telling_Blow,PH2) feat from PHB-II.

This combo triggers two separate fear effects when you crit: one from your Avenging Executioner ability (since when you crit, your Sudden Strike goes off), and one from Death Master/Eviscerator. This can pretty easily drop multiple foes into a panicked state. Also try the Gruesome Finish feat from Exemplars of Evil: it allows you to sacrifice your remaining attacks in a round when you drop a foe to kill them and generates yet another radius fear effect.

MustacheFart
2009-02-25, 11:35 AM
A Bard/Paladin of Slaughter can do easily what you want: Divine Might, Slippers of Battledance and Snowflake Wardance will add your Cha twice both to attack and damage. Divine Grace will take care of your saves. You'll problably need the Travel Devotion feat to active the Slippers with ease.

I hope that helps.


Hmm, what do Slippers of Battledance and Snowflake Wardance do exactly?

I'll have to look into all this.



Going Hexblade 3/Rogue 3 before going into Avenging Executioner is viable, and gets you Cha-to-Saves v arcane.

The other thing to try is stacking as many kinds of fear as you can. Avenging Executioners hit with a radius fear effect whenever they Sudden Strike someone. There are some feats that have similar effects: in particular, the Daunting Presence (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Daunting_Presence,LM) > Death Master (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Death_Master,LM) > Eviscerator (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Eviscerator,LM) chain; there's no real reason that Eviscerator requires the undead type, but you could be necropolitan or something if your DM won't let you qualify. Couple those with the Telling Blow (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Telling_Blow,PH2) feat from PHB-II.

This combo triggers two separate fear effects when you crit: one from your Avenging Executioner ability (since when you crit, your Sudden Strike goes off), and one from Death Master/Eviscerator. This can pretty easily drop multiple foes into a panicked state. Also try the Gruesome Finish feat from Exemplars of Evil: it allows you to sacrifice your remaining attacks in a round when you drop a foe to kill them and generates yet another radius fear effect.


Now this was more of what I was thinking. Pretty damn close actually. I basically want a guy who is so damn scary on the battle field, his presence actually adds to his combat prowess.

I have a couple questions though. First, why hexblade 3/rogue 3, exactly? Also, are all the shaken effects really worth a damn? I mean its a -1 to their attacks and thats pretty much it right? Also since you can't stack shaken effects, are they really worth it?

However, I do like the sounds of this character; especially, for RP reasons. Every time I've played a big bad melee dude and tried to intimidate someone out of combat my charisma is soo damn low it's practically a joke trying to intimidate them (cha is usually an 8 or 6 at least).

Also what is necropolitan?

Fax Celestis
2009-02-25, 12:24 PM
I have a couple questions though. First, why hexblade 3/rogue 3, exactly? Hexblade's a d10, full BAB, 2 saves class, and it gets Cha-to-saves at 3rd level. Use the PHB-II Dark Companion class feature for some spare debuffing. Meanwhile, Rogue 3 provides 2d6 sneak attack (a prereq for Avenging Executioner) as well as Evasion (and Trapfinding, but that's not required).


Also, are all the shaken effects really worth a damn? I mean its a -1 to their attacks and thats pretty much it right? Also since you can't stack shaken effects, are they really worth it?
YES. From the SRD:


Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

This means that if a target fails against two of your shaken-inducing saving throws (of which you have four, if you count Gruesome Finish, and a Hexblade Curse and/or your Dark Companion makes it more difficult to resist), they become Frightened. If they fail against three, they become Panicked.

As you said, Shaken is: "...a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks."

Frightened is: "A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape."

Panicked is: "A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape."

As you can see, terror can be a terrific (sic) means of defeating your opponents.


Also what is necropolitan?

Its' a template from Libris Mortis. Trade 1000xp for the undead type and some minor benefits.

Swooper
2009-02-25, 12:40 PM
Use the PHB-II Dark Companion class feature for some spare debuffing.
He'd need another level of Hexblade for that; it's a level 4 class feature.

Fax Celestis
2009-02-25, 12:48 PM
He'd need another level of Hexblade for that; it's a level 4 class feature.

What, seriously? It replaces a familiar. I thought hexblades got familiars at 1st level.

Swooper
2009-02-25, 12:54 PM
What, seriously? It replaces a familiar. I thought hexblades got familiars at 1st level.
Yeah, they don't get familiars until 4th level for some reason (unless they take Obtain Familiar earlier). Feel free to look it up to confirm. :smallsmile:

Fax Celestis
2009-02-25, 12:55 PM
Bizarre. Well, still. Hex 4/Rogue 1/[Spellthief or Ninja] 1 still gets you qualified, you just miss out on evasion.

Person_Man
2009-02-25, 01:04 PM
Avenging Executioner is a very uneven class.

It's easy to optimize Fear effects. Just take Frightful Presence and a Subjugating (Heroes of Battle pg 130) and/or Roaring (Book of Exalted Deeds pg 113) and/or Spell Storing weapon. Optimize your ability to Demoralize (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167) if you like as well. Throw in a class ability (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2) or two that imposes fear, and you're set. Almost any enemy that is subject to fear will soon be running away from you.

The down side is that tons of enemies are immune to Fear effects, Precision damage, or both. Against those enemies, you suck royally. And you've probably wasted most of your feats and gp optimizing your Fear effects, so you've got few other options. Also, since it's a 5 level class the Save DC's on your abilities stop progressing when you leave the class. So it's not viable for any build past ECL 10ish.

IMO, you should avoid the class unless it's a one shot campaign.

ocato
2009-02-25, 01:09 PM
Is there errata on this somewhere? Because I just checked the Complete Scoundrel and came up with the following for prereqs:

Entry Requirements
Alignment: Any nongood.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Hide 4 ranks, Intimidate 6 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks.
Special: Must have been tragically wronged in some manner.

I don't see sneak attack, not that it'd hurt.

Also, in my opinion, a build that scares people into running out of your range almost demands a reach/tripping weapon.

Ganurath
2009-02-25, 01:59 PM
Half-Orc or Orc Hexblade 5 / Avenging Executioner 5 / Ghost-Faced Killer 10

Otyugh Hole provides Menacing Demeanour for +4 Intimidate, and a wrongful incarceration in said hole covers the special prerequisites of the AE class. Cross-class for Hide and Move Silently, keep some skill points aside for the 4 ranks in Concentration.

Keld Denar
2009-02-25, 02:38 PM
Yea, optimizing for fear is pretty neat, but could really bone you if your DM throws anything thats mindless or otherwise immune to [Mind Affecting] or [Fear] effects. If you fight mostly humanoids, you will have a lot of fun fear-bombing with a build like Fax posted.

A couple things;

Dreadful Wrath or Fightening Presence would be killer. Another stackable fear effect to get your opponents one step closer to paniced.

Craven (Champions of Ruin) You only need 1d6 to get it, and it adds your character level to damage. Get it.

Staggering Strike (Complete Warrior) You shouldn't have a problem with the BAB requirement, and is quite funny when you hobble someone, but then you panic them enough to make them run away from you. This is the basic theory behind the ol' Everquest strategy of "Fear Kiting" and very effective in D&D.

Complete Scoundrel skill tricks, specifically Never Outnumbered. What? Cause you don't have enough fear effects as it is?

How about this


Human
1 Barbarian1 Dreadful Wrath, Extra Rage
2 Hexblade1
3 Hexblade2 Intimidating Rage
4 Hexblade3
5 Hexblade4 Dark Companion
6 Avenging Executioner1 Craven
7 AE2
8 AE3
9 AE4 Imperious Command
10 AE5
11 X
12 X Instantaneous Rage
13 X
14 X
15 X Staggering Strike
16 X
17 X
18 X Some feat
19 X
20 X


I dunno what to take after all that, but a couple of fighter levels would net you a couple extra feats that might lead into something solid like Occult Slayer.

Either way, you have lots of tricks. Instantaneous Rage + Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command is the Barbarian's semilimited form of Mass Celerity, which you can follow up with other fear effects like Never Outnumbered and your Bloody Murder and your rapid Initimidate skill.

Basically RAWR!!!!! STOP!!!! Hammer time!!!!

Kudos if you actually use a hammer of some type....

MustacheFart
2009-02-25, 05:59 PM
Thanks for all the help.

The DM just told me that he is planning to gestalt us in the next session or so. We are 5th level right now and I'm thinking about this character to replace one that I'm currently not having fun with. I told the DM what I was thinking and he actually thought a roguish-type melee character would fit nicely with what he had in mind and the current group. I told him I was looking at a hexblade going into Avenging Execution and he was fine with that. He just asked that I don't dip into other classes unless I have to for PrC prereqs.

Also he told me that he is going to give all the players each a different bloodline and that he was planning on giving me a vampiric bloodline (even before I mentioned playing a different character). That's all he told me though. He claims that the powers I'll get will be pretty strong. Vampire blood does have a nice ring to it when I think about a fear-inducing character.

Anyway, I realy like the idea of hexblade 5/Avenging Executioner 5/Ghost Faced Killer 10. I'm sure I could get my DM to drop the evil prereq. for GFK.

So, I'm looking at:


Human (2 Flaws)

1 Hex 1 - Power Atack, Dreadful Wrath, Daunting Presence, Death Master
2 Hex 2
3 Hex 3 - Improved Initiative (prereq. for GFK)
4 Hex 4 - Dark Companion
5 Hex 5 - *bonus feat from Hex but not sure which of listed to pick they all seem to suck*
6 AE 1 - Craven
7 AE 2
8 AE 3
9 AE 4 - Improved Critical (need for Eviscerator)
10 AE 5
11 GFK 1
12 GFK 2 - Eviscerator
13 GFK 3
14 GFK 4
15 GFK 5 - Leap Attack
16 GFK 6
17 GFK 7
18 GFK 8 - Staggering Strike
19 GFK 9
20 GFK 10


How would something like that perform? I'd like to be able to push up craven and even eviscerator but unfortunately I'm not sure how, unless I drop Dreadful Wrath, which I don't particularly want to do as I like what it does and it seems to fit the concept I have in mind.

Basically, I imagine this guy using the little spellcasting that he has to prepare. Then either sneak in or charge in depending on the foe/s. Then *WHAM* lay down some damage with a lot of crazy fear effects going off. I think the increase in damage from Leap Attack could really synergize well with AE and GFK.

Now I also could use some help with stat distribution and skill point distribution. We are using a 32-point buy. What should I put my skill points into? Obviously, max out intimidate but what about the limited amount I have left?

Also I don't think I'll have to worry about too many big baddies being immune to fear. For one reason, if the DM sees that's my mojo he's not gonna then **** me by having every encounter with mobs immune to fear.

I'd love to throw in a level of barbarian; specifically, using the lion totem barbarian varient and whirling frenzy variant. Pounce + 1 extra attack (that I can possibly crit on and thereby activating a fear effect) = golden! But that won't fly with the DM lol. He already said the powers I'm getting will be pretty powerful.

EDIT: Just noticed Imp. Critical requires BAB 8 so I had to move around the feats. That gives me Craven sooner on the character than before (lvl 6 instead of lvl 12, how I had it before).

MustacheFart
2009-02-26, 01:23 PM
*BUMP*

Thanks for all the help so far.

I still need some help though. Do you think my above build is solid enough? I was thinking about dropping leap attack (kind of getting away from the character anyway) for maybe Imperius Command. Is there a better way I could allocate my feats?

After reading the description of Imperius Command I'm thinking it might be best to get it as soon as possible (level 5 min but earliest feat would be level 6), maybe even before craven. I mean having foes I demoralize cower for 1 round before being shaken would be > than +6 damage right?


Also how should I spend my stat points? We are using a 32-point buy.

What should I spend my gold on? We are using starting gold for a 5th level character which is 9000gp.


I was thinking maybe stats of:

str...14 (+2)
dex..14 (+2)
con..12 (+1)
int.....8 (-1) - +2(headband of int) = 10
wis....8 (-1)
cha..18 (+4) - +1(lvl 4) = 19

That'd cost me 4,000 of my gold but would free up a couple stat points and I wouldn't have to take guerrilla warrior in order to get the prereqs for Avenging Executioner(4 ranks in hide, 4 ranks in move silently; both cross-classed, so 8 points with guerrilla warrior or 16 points without).


Also what spells should I get? I get a whopping 2 1st level spells known.

Keld Denar
2009-02-26, 03:19 PM
Non-permanent items do NOT increase your skill points. Are you using Point Buy? If so, I would lower your cha just a touch to increase your wisdom just a little. Also, your dex is probably a little higher than it needs to be. 12 would be high enough. You could salvage the points there.

And yea, Imperious Command is amazing. Get it as early as possible. Thats why I posted it low in my build.

lvl 1 fighter
2009-02-26, 03:27 PM
Something quick and dirty:

Human Rogue 4 / Ranger 2 / AE 5

H Craven
1 Weapon Finesse
3 Martial Study (Clinging Shadow Strike)
6 Martial Stance (Island of Blades)
9 Shadow Blade

+2d6 SA
+2d6 SS
Dex mod to damage
+CL dmg to SA
Favored Enemey (Human)
Two Weapon Fighting

There are some Favored Enemy dmg bumps in the MIC if you find yourself facing a lot of humans. Or Dwarves. Or whatever your Favored Enemy is.

MustacheFart
2009-02-26, 04:21 PM
Non-permanent items do NOT increase your skill points. Are you using Point Buy? If so, I would lower your cha just a touch to increase your wisdom just a little. Also, your dex is probably a little higher than it needs to be. 12 would be high enough. You could salvage the points there.

And yea, Imperious Command is amazing. Get it as early as possible. Thats why I posted it low in my build.

Ya we are using a 32-point buy. Ok, so I guess stats like as follows would be better:

str 14
dex 12
con 12
int 10
wis 8
cha 18

Now, about wisdom. Should I really lower charisma? I mean that would affect all of my fear DCs. The worst I lose from an 8 wis is a -1 to my will saves (my will saves are already pretty good).

I guess I could do:

str 14
dex 12
con 12
int 10
wis 10
cha 17 - then bump it up to 18 (stat point from level 4)

That leaves me with 1 extra stat point to throw somewhere though.


Also would it be worth it to drop the 5th level of Hexblade for a level of fighter? I mean with a 5th level in hexblade I only effectively get an extra use of my curse ability. My caster level is still 2 (5/2 = 2.5 rounded to 2). Since my dex mod is only a +1, the full plate proficiency would help quite a bit. Plus I could pick up Imperious Command sooner.

D-naras
2009-02-26, 05:38 PM
Well it depends on 2 things. First, does a full plate armor agree with the image of your character, and second, your dark companion allready lowers their saves by 2, and your curse is a free action so you can allways do it between fear effects for an extra bumb.
Personaly, I'd go with the second curse to screw with my opponents more. Afterall if you get him working you shouldn't worry about getting hit. And a vampire in full plate? :smallyuk:

MustacheFart
2009-02-27, 02:25 AM
Ya I think that's a good idea.

Now my next questions are what should I be looking to get, gear-wise right now with starting gold? What about in the future? Also what items can I get to pump intimidate other than the obvious (+cha item)?

I could put hideous on my armor, that would get me a +5 bonus to intimidate realitively cheap (3,350gp) with the potential to increase bonus to +15 (33,350gp). I could also put Fearsome on my armor (underdark, 5000gp) for another +5.

I could also put commanding on my armor(+2 enchancement) and weapon(+2 enhancement). That's a +4 from my armor and a +6 from my weapon (+2 when sheathed).

Around level 12(avg. char wealth is 88k) with the above I would have a total intimidate of 15(ranks) + 5(cha) + 2(synergy from 5 ranks bluff) + 2(+4 cha cloak) + 15(hideous) + 5(Fearsome) + 6(commanding wep) + 4(commanding armor) = 54. Is that pretty good?

Venger
2011-02-18, 12:30 PM
Ya I think that's a good idea.

Now my next questions are what should I be looking to get, gear-wise right now with starting gold? What about in the future? Also what items can I get to pump intimidate other than the obvious (+cha item)?

I could put hideous on my armor, that would get me a +5 bonus to intimidate realitively cheap (3,350gp) with the potential to increase bonus to +15 (33,350gp). I could also put Fearsome on my armor (underdark, 5000gp) for another +5.

I could also put commanding on my armor(+2 enchancement) and weapon(+2 enhancement). That's a +4 from my armor and a +6 from my weapon (+2 when sheathed).

Around level 12(avg. char wealth is 88k) with the above I would have a total intimidate of 15(ranks) + 5(cha) + 2(synergy from 5 ranks bluff) + 2(+4 cha cloak) + 15(hideous) + 5(Fearsome) + 6(commanding wep) + 4(commanding armor) = 54. Is that pretty good?

well, if your DM's allowing stuff from dragon magazine, bully chains give a +4 untyped bonus on intimidate checks and add make enemies demoralised for an extra round, which would certainly help your build. they take up the magic item slot on your chest, weigh 5 lbs, and cost 2600 gp

for core stuff, the circlet of persuasion (DMG p 252) gives a +3 competence bonus on all cha based skill checks, so it would stack with the items you listed above. it's 4500 gp

a +54 bonus is very far above and beyond "pretty good"

as you know, a natural 20 does not mean an automatic success on skill checks. resisting a demoralise attempt is a skill check of sorts, but in any event, it is neither an attack roll nor a saving throw, thus the natural 20 rule would not apply to it.

in order to avoid being demoralised by you, the character rolls a modified level check of its level/hd+1d20 +wis mod + bonus against fear

bonuses against fear are somewhat rare, and assuming an average roll of 10, your opponents (assuming they are also lvl 12) will need a combined wis mod and fear bonus of 32 in order to avoid being demoralised.

even on a roll of 20, these would have to equal 22 to resist. it is just this side of physically impossible for opponents to resist being demoralised with your planned build.

for a sense of scale, here is a link to epic level intimidate (I know no one uses them, but still, just to give you a sense of how good your character will be at intimidation)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy

you can brainwash people into mindless fanatics with a high enough diplomacy check.

your character will be able to reliably cut through this fanaticism with his intimidation checks. even factoring in the +20 bonus they will get, you will still demoralise fanatics the majority of the time.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#intimidate

I am in awe of your character. congratulations, good sir. I wish you the best of luck in your game, your character sounds really cool.

Vaynor
2011-02-18, 01:05 PM
The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.