Who would win in a fight, Xykon or gene-spliced V?

[paladinofshojo]

My money is on V since he would have the power of 3 epic spellcasters vs. the power of 1.........

[Saint Nil]

One epic level sorcerer Vs. An evoker/Conjuerer/Necoramancer/Sorcerer.

Your question answers itself really, V wwould not only have the chance to plan ahead, he would have flexibility if his plan backfired.

[someonenonotyou]

yeah but it only last for so long and with V's i dont think she would be able to hold it for long im he is just looking awful

[Kish]

Xykon would win by the Power of Plot. Defeated by a single member of the Order who isn't even the leader or the one with the personal grudge against Xykon? Never happen.

[Broler]

Originally Posted by Kish
Xykon would win by the Power of Plot. Defeated by a single member of the Order who isn't even the leader or the one with the personal grudge against Xykon? Never happen.

if it was a straight fight, with no changes due to plot V would have an easy win

[Mr. Pin]

Xykon's epic, but not that epic. with the souls of three epic mages within her, Vaarsuvius would have no problem wiping the floor with a guy who once got his bony ass handed to him by a mid-level fighter with a broken sword.

[Saint Nil]

To be fair, Roy threw Xykon into the gate, Roy did little. Unlike V, who could do any numerous broken thing to Xykon using his newly found powers.
V-Why would a lich hav ehigh enough STR to avoid a grapple check?:smallconfused:

[Mr. Pin]

True, but if you fail a grapple check that hard, you deserve to be 'sploded.

[Finwe]

Xykon's epic, but not that epic. with the souls of three epic mages within her, Vaarsuvius would have no problem wiping the floor with a guy who once got his bony ass handed to him by a mid-level fighter with a broken sword.

More to the point, Xykon's level is in the low 20's. He's epic, but not that epic. I would estimate that the other three souls were probably at least in their high 20's or low 30's when they died, possibly even higher.

[Saint Nil]

Also, Paladinof Shojo, you should fix your title to Soul-Splice, not gene-splice. Two totally diffrent things.

[shadowdemon_lord]

Eh, V would kill Xykon, but but not Red Cloak. Xykon would likely even make himself the center of attention, and challenge V to a show down. V would take his/her time with killing Xykon, despite the fact that s/he could end it in a round or two. Once Red Cloak realizes that Xykon is going to get owned, he'd quietly escape. Couple days later Xykons back, and V is no longer using god mode cheats.

[Broler]

I dont think V will have time to fight Xykon. i think she'll save her family then stop

[Klose_the_Sith]

Also, Paladinof Shojo, you should fix your title to Soul-Splice, not gene-splice. Two totally diffrent things.

I came in here with my advanced commentary on Xykon v Moose-V, and now it's useless.

[Corwin Weber]

Xykon would go down in about two rounds. Three, tops.

...the soul of an epic level necromancer would likely have some extremely nasty tricks to pull on a lich.

[FujinAkari]

Xykon would go down in about two rounds. Three, tops.

...the soul of an epic level necromancer would likely have some extremely nasty tricks to pull on a lich.

This does beg the question of whether V, who has barred necromancy as a school, is even able to cast said tricks...

[The Minx]

This does beg the question of whether V, who has barred necromancy as a school, is even able to cast said tricks...

I would think that he could: after all, it would be a pretty pointless deal if he didn't get powers that he normally doesn't have access to, right?

[osyluth]

Also, the three souls are not simply any "normal" epic spellcasters. They are the most powerful dead epic spellcasters of the three evil alignments. Xykon, Redcloak, both at once... nothing can stop that kind of power.
However, the point is essentially moot, as I am fairly certain that Vaarsuvius will just save his family and then stop so that he owes the fiends less time.

[Optimystik]

Gestalt-V would have the edge in power, but Xykon doesn't need to defeat him outright. The sheer strain of controlling the metaconcert probably wouldn't be pleasant if Xykon could prolong the fight long enough.

And if all else fails: ENERGY DRAIN! ENERGY DRAIN! ENERGY DRAIN!
(4 souls with weak fort saves are just that.)

[RMS Oceanic]

And if all else fails: ENERGY DRAIN! ENERGY DRAIN! ENERGY DRAIN!
(4 souls with weak fort saves are just that.)

I dunno about this point. Remember that one of V's bodymates is an epic level Necromancer, who probably knows all about Energy Drain, and probably how to defeat it.

[magic9mushroom]

Gestalt-V would have the edge in power, but Xykon doesn't need to defeat him outright. The sheer strain of controlling the metaconcert probably wouldn't be pleasant if Xykon could prolong the fight long enough.

And if all else fails: ENERGY DRAIN! ENERGY DRAIN! ENERGY DRAIN!
(4 souls with weak fort saves are just that.)

Why does weak fort save matter? Energy drain has NO SAVE. And the gestalt won't boost V's AC.

That is, basically, the core of the problem. The only spells that can instakill epic undead are the Word spells, which V still doesn't have, even with Wish, and doesn't have the OMG HAX CL for anyway. There's no equivalent to Energy Drain for undead in core either. So Xykon can keep shooting Energy Drain until V can't cast anymore, and V really can't do much about it except with direct-damage epic spells, like Hellball.

[Haven]

Gestalt-V would have the edge in power, but Xykon doesn't need to defeat him outright. The sheer strain of controlling the metaconcert probably wouldn't be pleasant if Xykon could prolong the fight long enough.

And if all else fails: ENERGY DRAIN! ENERGY DRAIN! ENERGY DRAIN!
(4 souls with weak fort saves are just that.)

Prolonging a fight isn't really Xykon's thing, though. He doesn't have the patience for that kind of strategy.

Drawing a fight out isn't V's strategy either, really.

Xykon's boned. Good thing for him V's using the gestalt on the dragon.

Though it's possible V'll take out the dragon, then teleport over to Azure City and take out Xykon. V taking out Xykon just as easily as he took out Kubota would be hilariously anticlimactic; unlike Belkar he doesn't have any rules against depriving teammates of their kills.

But he won't. If V manages to hold onto the gestalt longer than the encounter with the dragon, he would almost certainly seclude himself and dedicate his new abilities to research. Maybe he would remember to find Haley, but I bet he'd be too far gone at that point.

(Oh, and as for how V gets around the energy drain? I'd assume that in this scenario V would be the one initiating combat, and he'd do it on his terms. If it's just the two of them in an arena, V can take one damn energy drain, but I'd bet his epic powers grant him some spell that will cripple or kill Xykon)

[enarch3t]

This does beg the question of whether V, who has barred necromancy as a school, is even able to cast said tricks...

It would be the height of comedy if she still couldn't cast either the Conjurer's spells or the necromancer's spells.

Regardless, the next strip should be about Belkar.

[krossbow]

Unfortunately, V is still succeptable to the same tactic that made her lose last time against the dragon.

V's magical powers are formidable; the reason she's been humbled is she's useless without them! As is, Xycon merely has to lure V into an enclosed area and use anti-magic field. At which point V will once again become nigh useless, and Xycon or any other more physically formidable opponents could defeat her easily.




V needs to step back. What V really needs is humility and a better grasp of tactics besides "Boom Boom Kill!", or else he'll simply be outmanevered and destroyed by casters less focused on damage and more focused on the rearranging of reality.




In short, V needs to study batman wizardry or all the power in the universe won't be much help against a pure caster.

[Shadowcaller]

Unfortunately, V is still succeptable to the same tactic that made her lose last time against the dragon.

V's magical powers are formidable; the reason ahe's been humbled is she's useless without them! As in, Xycon merely has to lure V into an enclosed area and use anti-magic field. At which point V will once again become nigh useless, and Xycon or any other more physically formidable opponents could defeat her easily.




V needs to step back. What V really needs is humility and a better grasp of tactics besides "Boom Boom Kill!", or else he'll simply be outmanevered and destroyed by casters less focused on damage and more focused on the rearranging of reality.




In short, V needs to study batman wizardry or all the power in the universe won't be much help against a pure caster.

Well if we would assume that V could use his barred schools after the soul-splice and that with the epic spells granted from the other souls could break trough the cloister over Azure City, Xykon is toasted.

V would then have the advantage of suprise since he could just, scry Xykon, buff up, teleport down to Xykon, and then blast him into oblivion.

Xykon would not really stand a chance with the spells V would have access to.

On we on the other hand assume that he can't break trough the cloister even with the epic spells he got then its another thing.

[Kish]

In short, V needs to study batman wizardry or all the power in the universe won't be much help against a pure caster.
The most irritating thing about the "batman wizard" concept is the way its devotees push "the One True Way of playing a wizard."

[krossbow]

The most irritating thing about the "batman wizard" concept is the way its devotees push "the One True Way of playing a wizard."



Nothing wrong with playing a blaster mage to just have fun and if you have a competent party to back you up. However if your asking how you can win in a fight, then there literally IS NO CONTEST.


V tried being a blaster mage and got owned hardcore by the dragon. Its pushed becauses its simply that much more effective. Its possibly why 4th edition went with the idea of making wizards controllers rather than pure strikers.


As we've seen, Xycon may be dumb, but he at least grasps firmly the concept of battlefield control. He dominates the playing field before he starts nuking.

Comparing a batman wizard to how V plays is like comparing Bruce lee to a angry drunk; sure the drunk will charge in with passion and can deal alot of damage if he connects, but the skilled opponent will tear him apart piecemeal.






You can play a wizard whichever way you wish, and there's nothing wrong with having fun. however, if we're talking about who would win, then the most effective style is very much relevant.

[Rae Artemi]

Comparing a batman wizard to how V plays is like comparing Bruce lee to a angry drunk; sure the drunk will charge in with passion and can deal alot of damage if he connects, but the skilled opponent will tear him apart piecemeal.


Unless that drunk is Jackie Chan.


But yeah, V would toast Xykon.

[Optimystik]

I dunno about this point. Remember that one of V's bodymates is an epic level Necromancer, who probably knows all about Energy Drain, and probably how to defeat it.

Well, to truly defeat it you need a divine caster. Anyway, Dorukan was likely aware of it also, yet it didn't save him. (SoD).


Why does weak fort save matter? Energy drain has NO SAVE.

My bad, I was thinking of the period of time after the levels are gained; but if V has the Gestalt that long he's probably doomed anyway.


Prolonging a fight isn't really Xykon's thing, though. He doesn't have the patience for that kind of strategy.

He's patient when he has to be; he was fine with stalling both Soon and Lirian to serve the plan.


Xykon's boned.

*groans*


Though it's possible V'll take out the dragon, then teleport over to Azure City and take out Xykon. V taking out Xykon just as easily as he took out Kubota would be hilariously anticlimactic; unlike Belkar he doesn't have any rules against depriving teammates of their kills.

How? As m9m mentioned, short of Words there really is no way to one-shot an epic lich. Unless one of the souls has Vengeful Gaze of God or similar already researched, anyway.


Comparing a batman wizard to how V plays is like comparing Bruce lee to a angry drunk; sure the drunk will charge in with passion and can deal alot of damage if he connects, but the skilled opponent will tear him apart piecemeal.

If I had room, I would absolutely sig that.

[Raenir Salazar]

Does Avasculate work on Lich's?


Teleport in, Mordekainen's Djunction, Assay Resistence, Bugsby's Crushing Hand, Avasculate x2 to x3 then Power Word Kill.

(Avasculate reduces a targets hp by half, stuns for 1 round if save fails as well, ranged touch attack)

[Optimystik]

Teleport in, Mordekainen's Djunction, Assay Resistence, Bugsby's Crushing Hand, Avasculate x2 to x3 then Power Word Kill.


PW:K is a death effect; undead are immune.

[Kaytara]

Question: Why is everybody acting like Vaarsuvius is completely and fully incapable of casting anything other than blasting spells? Sure, he has a tendency to start with direct damage before trying anything else, but he has been quite competent at devising alternate strategies when the need arose. He Forcecaged the dragon and the only reason it didn't work was because the dragon was so freakishly out of his league and had enough sorcerer levels to cast Anti-Magic Field. He tried blasting the giant devil but was quite content to nibble away at its saving throws and then deal it a Save-or-Die when the direct damage tactic proved ineffective. In Cliffport, he was about to simply dispel the protection on those trees, and he Dismissed the Titanium Elementals rather than trying to wear down their hitpoints with fireball spells. He also tried Hold Person on Miko as soon as he realized how good her Reflex saves were.

The only problem is that, with powerful enemies, he is often overwhelmed by their attacks by the time he discovers that they are powerful enough to warrant a different tactic. But for just about everything else, blasting spells are simply good enough.

[Optimystik]

The only problem is that, with powerful enemies, he is often overwhelmed by their attacks by the time he discovers that they are powerful enough to warrant a different tactic. But for just about everything else, blasting spells are simply good enough.

But that's the problem. SoDs (and summons) almost always work; blaster spells are the easiest for enemies to prepare against (Leeky handily proved that with his energy-buffed trees.) He did the right thing against the Pit Fiend by opening with Banishment, but then fell back to mindless blaster mode instead of just going right into Prismatic Spray. Quickened Magic Missile and Lightning Bolt are the spells you fall back on when your SoDs fail and you need to wear the thing down.

[magic9mushroom]

The hilarious thing is that you've got all these people yelling about Batman Save-or-Die being so horrendously superior to blasting, when the main enemy of the comic is someone who can basically *only* be killed by blasting, who makes a habit of utilising blasting, and proved the usefulness of blasting by killing an epic and prepared Batman wizard with it.

[Haven]

]*groans*

^^




How? As m9m mentioned, short of Words there really is no way to one-shot an epic lich. Unless one of the souls has Vengeful Gaze of God or similar already researched, anyway.



That's what I was assuming: that the epic necromancer would have some awesome epic spell that could instantly deal with any sort of undead.

Failing that, he cold always Plane Shift him to the Positive Energy Plane or something.

[magic9mushroom]

^^




That's what I was assuming: that the epic necromancer would have some awesome epic spell that could instantly deal with any sort of undead.

Failing that, he cold always Plane Shift him to the Positive Energy Plane or something.

The Slay seed has the [Death] label and hence doesn't work v. Xykon. The Destroy seed if we assume average damage is going to have a Spellcraft DC of 70+ if it is going to kill Xykon, which I doubt V could make. The Energy seed would be getting to even higher DCs, around 80. The Heal seed would work, but unfortunately only Divine casters can access it.

Plane Shift wouldn't work, because Xykon would just Plane Shift or Gate back.

[Jan Mattys]

The hilarious thing is that you've got all these people yelling about Batman Save-or-Die being so horrendously superior to blasting, when the main enemy of the comic is someone who can basically *only* be killed by blasting, who makes a habit of utilising blasting, and proved the usefulness of blasting by killing an epic and prepared Batman wizard with it.

Any Epic Wizard preparing for 6 months for a magic duel against an Epic Lich and forgetting to protect himself from Negative Energy deserves not only to be defeated, but to be mocked for the eons to come.

No, really, I like Dorukan and I know that at the time Xykon had the strongest Plot Armor you can imagine, but that was dumb ^_^

[krossbow]

Any Epic Wizard preparing for 6 months for a magic duel against an Epic Lich and forgetting to protect himself from Negative Energy deserves not only to be defeated, but to be mocked for the eons to come.

No, really, I like Dorukan and I know that at the time Xykon had the strongest Plot Armor you can imagine, but that was dumb ^_^


Not to mention Xycon is constantly being saved by what are essentially deus ex machinas. About to lose to paladin ghosts (basically for no other reason than pure idiocy on his part too; horrible tactics)? Crazy fallen paladin out of left field! Thrown into a dungeon and infected with a magical disease? Hey, its someone with an artifact.


Xycon has suceeded based on plot armor, nothing more, nothing less. Hell, his army of hobgoblins was a handwave to make him a legitimate threat again.

[magic9mushroom]

Not to mention Xycon is constantly being saved by what are essentially deus ex machinas. About to lose to paladin ghosts (basically for no other reason than pure idiocy on his part too; horrible tactics)? Crazy fallen paladin out of left field! Thrown into a dungeon and infected with a magical disease? Hey, its someone with an artifact.


Xycon has suceeded based on plot armor, nothing more, nothing less. Hell, his army of hobgoblins was a handwave to make him a legitimate threat again.

Xykon couldn't have anticipated the ghost paladins, and shredded most of them handily. Had he been really screwed, he could have exploded the gate himself anyway.

He could have raised an army without the hobgoblins anyway, just go find some more celestials. Which shouldn't be hard, Random Encounter logic being what it is.

[krossbow]

Xykon couldn't have anticipated the ghost paladins, and shredded most of them handily. Had he been really screwed, he could have exploded the gate himself anyway.




except that would have defeated himself! he's there for the gates; he wouldn't sacrifice that. Were he smart, he would have simply have retreated like any intelligent opponent would have done, and then had his MASSIVE army curbstomp them once they reached the throne room. As is, by staying he basically forfeited a won match.



He could have raised an army without the hobgoblins anyway, just go find some more celestials. Which shouldn't be hard, Random Encounter logic being what it is.

Do you know how long that would have taken? Celestials aren't native to the mortal planes; you won't find thousands just sitting around, regardless of random encounters. Building up a literal army of celestials would require traveling to the celestial planes. and a lich making raids on a plane of angelic beings would almost assuredly have attracted attention and been virtually impossible in a timely manner; by which point his enemies would easily have reinforced the remaining gates.

[kusje]

Xykon couldn't have anticipated the ghost paladins, and shredded most of them handily. Had he been really screwed, he could have exploded the gate himself anyway.



What? He was obviously DEAD. Soon had him and Redcloak saying their last goodbyes to each other.

[magic9mushroom]

except that would have defeated himself! he's there for the gates; he wouldn't sacrifice that. Were he smart, he would have simply have retreated like any intelligent opponent would have done, and then had his MASSIVE army curbstomp them once they reached the throne room. As is, by staying he basically forfeited a won match.

...

That's why I said "had he been really screwed". Losing a gate is better than permadeath, in case you hadn't noticed. Also, ghosts being INCORPOREAL, and the throne room being CONSECRATED, the army couldn't do squat. Thirdly, Xykon was handily crushing the ghosts, he just couldn't kill Soon. Fourthly, Xykon wouldn't have died anyway, because as Soon himself admitted, an incorporeal being couldn't have destroyed his phylactery, and by this point Tsukiko and the hobgoblins had cut any reinforcements off. Redcloak may have carked it, possibly.


Do you know how long that would have taken? Celestials aren't native to the mortal planes; you won't find thousands just sitting around, regardless of random encounters. Building up a literal army of celestials would require traveling to the celestial planes. and a lich making raids on a plane of angelic beings would almost assuredly have attracted attention and been virtually impossible in a timely manner; by which point his enemies would easily have reinforced the remaining gates.

You really need to brush up on how the OotS-verse works, my friend. This has been gone over several times in-comic. Once by Xykon himself.

[magic9mushroom]

What? He was obviously DEAD. Soon had him and Redcloak saying their last goodbyes to each other.

Last goodbyes? Possibly. Xykon made one huge mistake by forgetting that Redcloak was carrying his phylactery and allowing him to stay in danger. This is obvious. However, Miko herself was lucky to get into the throne room at that point, and any other human wouldn't have managed to get into the room. No corporeal beings means no smashing phylacteries. Xykon would have come back, and resurrected Redcloak with Limited Wish -> Raise Dead.

My take on that is that Soon would have blown up the gate himself on realising that there was no way to defend it. Remember that that was why Xykon went to the throne room in the first place, to stop the gate being destroyed.

[Optimystik]

The hilarious thing is that you've got all these people yelling about Batman Save-or-Die being so horrendously superior to blasting, when the main enemy of the comic is someone who can basically *only* be killed by blasting, who makes a habit of utilising blasting, and proved the usefulness of blasting by killing an epic and prepared Batman wizard with it.

Um, what? Dorukan was nowhere near being a batman-type wizard.
About the only useful spell he used against Xykon was Gate, and he seemed to have his thumb up his nether regions while Xykon was fending off the archons (I certainly didn't see or hear him cast anything.) Prismatic Spray is terrible against a lich sorcerer - it makes fort saves with its best stat and has strong will saves to boot, which easily negates the blue and violet beams; its completely immune to the yellow, indigo and green beams; and the red and orange beams are an utter joke. Meteor Swarm and that other fire spell he used were just more foolish blasting. Besides which, the spell Xykon finally killed him with is a popular Batman spell. (Or at least empowered Enervation is, if you're smarter than Xykon.)

As for Xykon, you're correct that he's immune to many of the SoSc spells in the wizard's repertoire. Thus, the best way to kill him is Roy's sword. A Batman's job is to buff Roy through the stratosphere. The wizard doesn't kill things; he makes it easy for the fighter to kill things.


Last goodbyes? Possibly. Xykon made one huge mistake by forgetting that Redcloak was carrying his phylactery and allowing him to stay in danger. This is obvious. However, Miko herself was lucky to get into the throne room at that point, and any other human wouldn't have managed to get into the room. No corporeal beings means no smashing phylacteries. Xykon would have come back, and resurrected Redcloak with Limited Wish -> Raise Dead.

With Xykon and Redcloak dead and the gate intact, Soon could have hung around as long as it took to wait for a human to come along and break the phylactery. More importantly, he could still kill any goblin or other minion that tried to retrieve it.

I'm not saying Miko was a deus ex - she wasn't - but it was awfully convenient for Xykon all the same.


My take on that is that Soon would have blown up the gate himself on realising that there was no way to defend it. Remember that that was why Xykon went to the throne room in the first place, to stop the gate being destroyed.

With Xykon and Redcloak dead, there'd be no more need to defend it. Even if the rest of the army took the throne room by force, they have no idea how to do anything with the Snarl.

[Finwe]

The hilarious thing is that you've got all these people yelling about Batman Save-or-Die being so horrendously superior to blasting, when the main enemy of the comic is someone who can basically *only* be killed by blasting, who makes a habit of utilising blasting, and proved the usefulness of blasting by killing an epic and prepared Batman wizard with it.

Painting Dorukon as a 'batman' wizard is laughable. Xykon was outside his tower for MONTHS, and Dorukon wasn't even prepared for the eventuality that *GASP* a lich might use negative energy attacks! Furthermore, his spell selection and general performance in that fight were absolutely terrible. For shame, Dorukon. For SHAME.

[Silverraptor]

On a more personal note:

How did a bunch of celetials from a gate spell plus a epic wizard not be able to defeat Xykon? Apart from the prismic spray on black and white coloring.

[Kish]

On a more personal note:

How did a bunch of celetials from a gate spell plus a epic wizard not be able to defeat Xykon? Apart from the prismic spray on black and white coloring.

Because Xykon is a sorcerer--and that magic is in his bones, not cribbed off of "Magic for Dummies." And he can cast the same friggin' spell until you wither up and die.

[Balgus]

V - you cant call it ultimate power if a dorky lich can beat you - he is but one soul - you have 4, each capable of figuring out a way to destroy Xykon.

And all of whom are under the direct control of V

[Finwe]

On a more personal note:

How did a bunch of celetials from a gate spell plus a epic wizard not be able to defeat Xykon? Apart from the prismic spray on black and white coloring.


For the same reason Dorukon 'wasted' the gate on a handful of 4-7 hd angels, instead of calling a 42+ HD solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar). Plot-induced stupidity.

[Keinnicht]

Let's see here. An epic-level lich. That's pretty tough. Epic level sorcerors don't come along every day. Yeah, he's tough.

He's also fighting the three most powerful evil mages who have ever lived. "Three most powerful evil mages who have ever lived"

Ever lived.

I don't know how far back "ever" stretches in the OoTS world (Since fantasy realms have a habit of varying somewhat in history) but "ever" is, in most circles, a very very long time.

I think just guessing by most powerful ever, those guys are really epic level. Like, incredibly epic level. Like, 40-60 epic level. The guys who cast Vengeful Gaze of God successfully and survive the backlash damage.

V would definitely, definitely win.

[kusje]

He's also fighting the three most powerful evil mages who have ever lived. "Three most powerful evil mages who have ever lived"

Ever lived.


That isn't what the comic says...

It says "three most powerful mages whose souls we command". The 3 of them aren't the most powerful fiends around so their superiors might command some more powerful souls.

All we know is that the raw energy of the combination "dwarfs that wielded by any mortal arane (sic) spellcaster who has ever lived." Liches aren't really alive so we don't know if they are indeed more powerful than Xykon (I would think so but the comic doesn't say either way).

Furthermore, these might not be three most powerful mages under their command. CE or NE or LE could potentially command 2 other mages that are more powerful than the other two.

[magic9mushroom]

Um, what? Dorukan was nowhere near being a batman-type wizard.
About the only useful spell he used against Xykon was Gate, and he seemed to have his thumb up his nether regions while Xykon was fending off the archons (I certainly didn't see or hear him cast anything.) Prismatic Spray is terrible against a lich sorcerer - it makes fort saves with its best stat and has strong will saves to boot, which easily negates the blue and violet beams; its completely immune to the yellow, indigo and green beams; and the red and orange beams are an utter joke. Meteor Swarm and that other fire spell he used were just more foolish blasting. Besides which, the spell Xykon finally killed him with is a popular Batman spell. (Or at least empowered Enervation is, if you're smarter than Xykon.)

My apologies, I haven't read SoD, but that was the impression I got from the main strip.


As for Xykon, you're correct that he's immune to many of the SoSc spells in the wizard's repertoire. Thus, the best way to kill him is Roy's sword. A Batman's job is to buff Roy through the stratosphere. The wizard doesn't kill things; he makes it easy for the fighter to kill things.

That was tried. I seem to recall Sunder being a stumbling block.


With Xykon and Redcloak dead and the gate intact, Soon could have hung around as long as it took to wait for a human to come along and break the phylactery. More importantly, he could still kill any goblin or other minion that tried to retrieve it.

I'm not saying Miko was a deus ex - she wasn't - but it was awfully convenient for Xykon all the same.

Xykon wouldn't have stayed dead, Redcloak could have been resurrected, and the throne room was blockaded by the hobbos. No human would have come along. It's doubtful that Soon could have maintained his presence there for days on end. Besides which, Xykon STILL had Overland Flight and could have gotten out even without the distraction.


With Xykon and Redcloak dead, there'd be no more need to defend it. Even if the rest of the army took the throne room by force, they have no idea how to do anything with the Snarl.

So? He had no way to kill Xykon, and no way to destroy Redcloak's body. Xykon would have regenerated and raised Redcloak with Clone or Limited Wish. It would have been a severe inconvenience, but that's all.

[kusje]

Xykon wouldn't have stayed dead, Redcloak could have been resurrected, and the throne room was blockaded by the hobbos. No human would have come along. It's doubtful that Soon could have maintained his presence there for days on end. Besides which, Xykon STILL had Overland Flight and could have gotten out even without the distraction.

Soon was in the middle of killing him so he couldn't just fly away. Besides, without the destruction of the gate, Soon could have flown after him and chased him down.

Soon himself says that if Miko "had been less hasty", he "might have ended Xykon's threat permanently.




So? He had no way to kill Xykon, and no way to destroy Redcloak's body. Xykon would have regenerated and raised Redcloak with Clone or Limited Wish. It would have been a severe inconvenience, but that's all.

It takes ages for Xykon to regenerate. I'm pretty sure the OOTS would have fought their way into the throne room if it didn't go kaboom.

[Optimystik]

That was tried. I seem to recall Sunder being a stumbling block.

I seem to recall that was pre-starmetal forging.


Xykon wouldn't have stayed dead,

He would have for 1d10 days.


Redcloak could have been resurrected,

By who? He's the highest level cleric Team Evil has; the rest had no way of getting to his body.


and the throne room was blockaded by the hobbos. No human would have come along.

Would they have stayed with their "supreme leader" and his slave-driving overlord lying in a heap inside?


It's doubtful that Soon could have maintained his presence there for days on end.

His "presence" has been in that room for decades. Even if he did have to vanish for a while, what makes you think he couldn't simply return if the gate was imperiled further?


Besides which, Xykon STILL had Overland Flight and could have gotten out even without the distraction.

Soon flies faster and he had Xykon on the ropes to boot. Stick a fork in them, they were done (were it not for Miko.)

So? He had no way to kill Xykon, and no way to destroy Redcloak's body. Xykon would have regenerated and raised Redcloak with Clone or Limited Wish. It would have been a severe inconvenience, but that's all.[/QUOTE]

And while Xykon is regenerating, Soon is... watching him? Playing tiddlywinks?

Clone takes 2d4 MONTHS.

As for Wishes, keep in mind that each time Xykon would try that trick, Redcloak would lose a caster level. That would be almost as helpful to the PCs as leaving him dead. He'd also come back without any of the spells or turning attempts he'd cast that day, assuming Limited Wish, and even have the chance to lose spells he hadn't cast.

[Corwin Weber]

The hilarious thing is that you've got all these people yelling about Batman Save-or-Die being so horrendously superior to blasting, when the main enemy of the comic is someone who can basically *only* be killed by blasting, who makes a habit of utilising blasting, and proved the usefulness of blasting by killing an epic and prepared Batman wizard with it.

Erm..... just a quick question from someone who hasn't played since 2ed....

....Batman? </blank look>

[Raging Gene Ray]

....Batman? </blank look>

Batman Wizard: Able to beat ANYTHING given enough time to prepare. Just like Batman always has just happened to bring his Bat-Shark Repellent the day he has to fight a shark, this wizard will have just the right combination of spells for the particular situation...provided he knew about the situation long enough beforehand.

[Corwin Weber]

Ah, ok. Thanks. :)

[magic9mushroom]

I seem to recall that was pre-starmetal forging.

So?


He would have for 1d10 days.

No. He'd only need to regenerate his skull to get out. That takes a few hours, it would seem, from earlier in the comic.


By who? He's the highest level cleric Team Evil has; the rest had no way of getting to his body.

Xykon, duh. Limited Wish FTW. Or Tsukiko, who casts as a 9th level cleric.


Would they have stayed with their "supreme leader" and his slave-driving overlord lying in a heap inside?

Where else would they go? They seemed fairly loyal to me.


His "presence" has been in that room for decades. Even if he did have to vanish for a while, what makes you think he couldn't simply return if the gate was imperiled further?

He could. But when Xykon came back he would have been well-prepared and crushed him like a bug. ENERGY DRAIN! ENERGY DRAIN! ENERGY DRAIN! Preferably with Soon in a Forcecage.


Soon flies faster and he had Xykon on the ropes to boot. Stick a fork in them, they were done (were it not for Miko.)

Unlikely that he could fly far from the gate. Ghosts usually can't do things like that.


And while Xykon is regenerating, Soon is... watching him? Playing tiddlywinks?

Clone takes 2d4 MONTHS.

As for Wishes, keep in mind that each time Xykon would try that trick, Redcloak would lose a caster level. That would be almost as helpful to the PCs as leaving him dead. He'd also come back without any of the spells or turning attempts he'd cast that day, assuming Limited Wish, and even have the chance to lose spells he hadn't cast.

Xykon would have to do it exactly ONCE. Getting out wouldn't be hard, and then he'd just have to teleport Redcloak's body to him (not hard) and then he has all the time in the world. Wait... Tsukiko could even Raise Dead on him.

2d4 months is about the amount of time since Azure City fell, y'know.

[belboz]

People have hinted at it, by mentioning the phylactery, but nobody's said it explicitly:

While V could *defeat* Xykon (easily, I'd say), the defeat would be temporary unless V:

a) Discovers that the talisman Redcloak carries is Xykon's phylactery,
b) Tracks down Redcloak, and
c) Kills him before Xykon has a chance to regenerate, and before V loses control of the three bound souls.

Now, V's a pretty good diviner, but none of the four spliced souls is actually a divination *specialist*. And Xykon is working with some pretty darn powerful anti-divination magic (e.g., the homebrew spell "Cloister"). I think this would be a challenge, especially if Xykon wasn't standing right next to Redcloak at the time.

IIRC, you simply can't kill a lich (for good) without destroying its phylactery.

[magic9mushroom]

People have hinted at it, by mentioning the phylactery, but nobody's said it explicitly:

While V could *defeat* Xykon (easily, I'd say), the defeat would be temporary unless V:

a) Discovers that the talisman Redcloak carries is Xykon's phylactery,
b) Tracks down Redcloak, and
c) Kills him before Xykon has a chance to regenerate, and before V loses control of the three bound souls.

Now, V's a pretty good diviner, but none of the four spliced souls is actually a divination *specialist*. And Xykon is working with some pretty darn powerful anti-divination magic (e.g., the homebrew spell "Cloister"). I think this would be a challenge, especially if Xykon wasn't standing right next to Redcloak at the time.

IIRC, you simply can't kill a lich (for good) without destroying its phylactery.

Cloister isn't homebrew per se. It's entirely legal and developable under the Epic Spellcasting rules. Let me see. I'm guessing a couple of things, and "ad hoc"ing the "also targets every creature within the area".

Cloister
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 240
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 action
Area: 30, 000 foot radius
Duration: 20 weeks
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

The surrounding area becomes immune to divination and teleportation spells. All creatures within the area are also rendered immune to divination and teleportation spells.


SEED: CONCEAL
Illusion (Glamer)
Spellcraft DC: 17
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or a creature or object of up to 2,000 lb.
Duration: 200 minutes or until expended (D)
Saving Throw: None or Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: No or Yes (harmless, object)
You can conceal a creature or object touched from sight,
even from darkvision. If the subject is a creature carrying
gear, the gear vanishes too, rendering the creature invisible.
A spell using the conceal seed ends if the subject attacks
any creature. Actions directed at unattended objects do not
break the spell, and causing harm indirectly is not an
attack. To create invisibility that lasts regardless of the
actions of the subject, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4.
Alternatively, you can conceal the exact location of the
subject so that it appears to be about 2 feet away from its
true location; this increases the Spellcraft DC by +2. The
subject benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total
concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment,
this displacement effect does not prevent enemies from
targeting him normally.
The conceal seed can also be used to block divination
spells, spell-like effects, and epic spells developed using
the reveal seed; this increases the Spellcraft DC by +6. In
all cases where divination magic of any level, including
epic level, is employed against the subject of a spell using
the conceal seed for this purpose, an opposed caster level
check determines which spell works.

SEED: WARD
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 14
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target or Effect: Touched creature or object of 2,000 lb. or less; or
10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
You can grant a creature protection from damage of a
specified type. You can protect a creature from standard
damage or from energy damage. You can protect a creature
or area from magic. Alternatively, you can hedge out
a type of creature from a specified area.
A ward against standard damage protects a creature
from whichever two you select of the three damage types:
bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing. For a ward against
all three types, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4. Each
round, the spell created with the ward seed absorbs the
first 5 points of damage the creature would otherwise
take, regardless of whether the source of the damage is natural or magical. For each additional point of protection,
increase the Spellcraft DC by +2.
A ward against energy grants a creature protection from
whichever one you select of the five energy types: acid,
cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. Each round, the spell absorbs
the first 5 points of damage the creature would otherwise
take from the specified energy type, regardless of whether
the source of damage is natural or magical. The spell protects
the recipients equipment as well. For each additional
point of protection, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1.
A ward against a specific type of creature prevents bodily
contact from whichever one of several monster types you
select from the Monster Manual (giants, humanoids, or outsiders,
for example). This causes the natural weapon attacks
of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such
attacks require touching the warded creature. The protection
ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or
intentionally moves within 5 feet of the blocked creature.
Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection
and touch the warded creature.
A ward against magic creates an immobile, faintly
shimmering magical sphere (with radius 10 feet) that surrounds
you and excludes all spell effects of up to 1st level.
Alternatively, you can ward just the target and not create
the radius effect. For each additional level of spells to be
excluded, increase the Spellcraft DC by +20 (but see
below). The area or effect of any such spells does not
include the area of the ward, and such spells fail to affect
any target within the ward. This includes spell-like abilities
and spells or spell-like effects from magic items.
However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of
the ward. You can leave and return to the protected area
without penalty (unless the spell specifically targets a
creature and does not provide a radius effect).
The ward could be brought down by a targeted dispel
magic spell. Epic spells using the dispel seed may bring
down a ward if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster
level check. The ward may also be brought down with a
targeted epic spell using the destroy seed if the enemy
spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check.

Factors: Excludes all spells up to Epic level (+18 DC), protect against divinations (+6 DC), reduce casting time to 1 action (+20 DC), change from touch to area (+14 DC), increase area by 149900% (+44 DC), increase duration by 111900% (+44 DC), also targets all within the area (ad hoc +80 DC) Mitigating factors: requires Epic circlet (-17 DC).

[Silverraptor]

For the same reason Dorukon 'wasted' the gate on a handful of 4-7 hd angels, instead of calling a 42+ HD solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar). Plot-induced stupidity.

Ah that explains it. Thank you.