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quick_comment
2009-02-25, 05:35 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/legendaryWeapons.htm

The swift scion gets this ability at prc level 5 when wielding the nightphantom bow.


Dreamstrike Arrows (Su)

Three times per day (but no more than once per round), a swift scion of 5th level or higher can fire a special arrow from Nightphantom. The arrow strikes as a touch attack (ignoring armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses to AC). The arrow deals only half the normal damage, but the damage dealt is Wisdom damage, not hit point damage. Bonus damage dice, if any, do not apply to the damage dealt by a dreamstrike arrow.

So its a touch attack, which will amost certainly hit. And it deals straight wisdom damage. You cant power attack with a ranged weapon, and sneak attack/sudden strike dont apply, but there must be some way to boost your damage enough to kill anything with a wisdom score.

Whats the best way to boost bow damage other than sneak attack?

NEO|Phyte
2009-02-25, 05:44 PM
It should be noted that this won't actually KILL anything.

Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss)
It'll leave them helpless, and thus easily killed, but that's still two hits.

Jack_Simth
2009-02-25, 05:48 PM
Let's see... the Sor/Wiz Enlarge Person, the Wu Jen Giant Size, and similar spells are out - the item has size restrictions...

Well, you can up the damage somewhat by using Bane arrows ... and having Ranger levels ... and targeting your Favored Enemy.

quick_comment
2009-02-25, 05:51 PM
It should be noted that this won't actually KILL anything.

It'll leave them helpless, and thus easily killed, but that's still two hits.


You dont need to hit them again, you just feed the enemy alive to an animal companion/summoned monster/whatever.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-25, 05:53 PM
What NEO|Phyte said.

The two easiest ways are boosting your STR (make sure the bow has a nice high STR rating), and enhancement bonuses.

You can get help from a Bard, specialize in the bow, the Fierce enchantment, Swashbuckler 3 are some more ways to increase damage.

The Minx
2009-02-25, 05:58 PM
Or use it on a flying opponent over water.

<shades of Earthsea> :smallsmile:

I concur with the Str boosts. Belt of Giant Strength, Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

You can also try boosting your threat range, you might get lucky, and a confirmation will be pretty easy with a touch attack.

Keld Denar
2009-02-25, 06:03 PM
If you have Turn Undead from Cleric, Paladin, Blackguard, or similar levels, you can use Divine Might to get +cha to damage for the rest of the turn. This is addative to the +str you already get from a Composite Bow.

And 1 word totally breaks this ability...

Splitting

MammonAzrael
2009-02-25, 06:13 PM
Splitting

Shhh! Quite, or the gods might hear you and send down creatures immune to Wisdom damage to savage us!

Glimbur
2009-02-25, 06:58 PM
Swashbuckler 3 are some more ways to increase damage.

Swashbuckler 3 specifically only applies to melee weapons.

There's a special bow online that lets you power attack, I think it's modeled on a bow from the D&D cartoon. Kind of an obscure source, admittedly. Hank's Bow?

Jack_Simth
2009-02-25, 06:59 PM
What NEO|Phyte said.

The two easiest ways are boosting your STR (make sure the bow has a nice high STR rating), and enhancement bonuses.

You can get help from a Bard, specialize in the bow, the Fierce enchantment, Swashbuckler 3 are some more ways to increase damage.

Unfortunately, it's a very specific bow. This has two implications:
1) Any enchantments you use must be on the arrows, not the bow (unless it's a spell that adds to the bow/arrows, such as Greater Magic Weapon, Flame Arrow, or similar)
2) The strength bonus of the bow is fixed, so strength enhancements don't really help.

Mr. Pin
2009-02-25, 07:03 PM
seems to me like you bust out the +3 flaming/shocking arrows, no?

it's another 7 wisdom damage or so. add the normal damage and voila, insane wisdom to Belkar Bitterleaf, good wisdom to dead.

Mr. Pin
2009-02-25, 07:08 PM
Or use it on a flying opponent over water.

<shades of Earthsea> :smallsmile:

I concur with the Str boosts. Belt of Giant Strength, Gauntlets of Ogre Power.



Does it take wisdom to fly? birds do it, bees do it, even sentimental fleas do it...

bonuses from those don't stack, and we're assuming you already have the necessary strength bonus to wield the bow. additional bonuses won't help.

snoopy13a
2009-02-25, 07:14 PM
It doesn't sound that great.

The character in question would be a level 6 ranger/level 5 swift scion using a small sized +3 composite shortbow.

No bonus dice are allowed and damage is halved and only one special arrow can be shot per turn.

It looks like straight (1d4+3)/2 damage against Wisdom to me*. It might lower enemy cleric's wisdom so they can't cast their high level spells but it doesn't seem that powerful.

* The "enhancement" text is confusing. It could imply that it is a +2 strength composite bow as well as being a +3 enhancement bow or it could imply that it changes from a +2 strength composite bow to a +3 strength composite bow. If it is both a magical and composite bow it would do (1d4+2+3)/2 damage.

ShadowFighter15
2009-02-25, 07:17 PM
Does it take wisdom to fly? birds do it, bees do it, even sentimental fleas do it...

Probably not, but 0 wisdom puts the character into a coma.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-02-25, 07:25 PM
seems to me like you bust out the +3 flaming/shocking arrows, no?

it's another 7 wisdom damage or so. add the normal damage and voila, insane wisdom to Belkar Bitterleaf, good wisdom to dead.But bonus dice, as from shocking/flaming, don't count for this Wisdom damage. And enhancement bonuses on arrows don't stack with that of the bow; you take the better of the two.


Does it take wisdom to fly? birds do it, bees do it, even sentimental fleas do it...

bonuses from those don't stack, and we're assuming you already have the necessary strength bonus to wield the bow. additional bonuses won't help.Birds and bees both have average wisdom scores, and I've never seen stats for a flea, but even insect vermin have okay wisdom in D&D. Anything that can perceive it's surroundings, in fact, has a Wisdom score. And having it drained/damaged to zero will, as stated, render you helpless and unconscious.

The Minx
2009-02-25, 07:35 PM
Does it take wisdom to fly? birds do it, bees do it, even sentimental fleas do it...

bonuses from those don't stack, and we're assuming you already have the necessary strength bonus to wield the bow. additional bonuses won't help.

Yes it does take wisdom to fly, apparently; since you fall unconscious when you go to Wis 0. Unconscious creatures are helpless and cannot move. If it is a flying creature over water, it will therefore fall and drown.


EDIT. Serves me right for not looking down the whole thread for responses: ninja'd by 10 minutes. :/

ShadowFighter15
2009-02-25, 07:52 PM
*points to his last post* Bit more than ten minutes, actually. :smalltongue:

The Minx
2009-02-25, 09:05 PM
*points to his last post* Bit more than ten minutes, actually. :smalltongue:

Bah. :smallannoyed:

Draz74
2009-02-25, 09:13 PM
Paladin with the Elven Substitution Level that lets you Smite with a ranged attack. BAM! Add your level to your damage!

Graymayre
2009-02-25, 09:23 PM
Though this is really just relying on another person's help. You could have a bard in your party that specs to maximize her Inspire Courage ability.

Provided the Words of Creation feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) is allowed, a good bard could give around +5 to attack and damage to everyone at just level 6. So that's another few points of damage. If it isn't allowed, you could have a bard that does the same around your level.

kjones
2009-02-25, 10:22 PM
Swashbuckler 3 specifically only applies to melee weapons.

There's a special bow online that lets you power attack, I think it's modeled on a bow from the D&D cartoon. Kind of an obscure source, admittedly. Hank's Bow?

Does it? It says that it only applies to light/finessable weapons, but something like a thrown dagger would qualify.

lsfreak
2009-02-25, 10:27 PM
Well, since the ability requires firing an arrow, it's kind of a moot point in relation to the thread. But strictly as written, yes it does appear that you could apply it to thrown daggers, though I don't think that's intended.

krossbow
2009-02-25, 10:33 PM
Could you use this with a ballista?

RTGoodman
2009-02-25, 10:39 PM
Note that you, in fact, WON'T one-hit kill "anything" with this. Constructs and Undead are specifically immune to ability damage, for instance, and there's probably other things that it wouldn't work against.

And, like someone else said, you've got to meet a LOT of prerequisites AND have to be using a specific weapon in order to use it. If you're putting together a build that focuses on destroying foes with ability damage, just build a Wizard/Master Specialist/IotSFV/Archmage or whatever that specializes in metamagicing the CRAP out of shivering touch or whatever.


Could you use this with a ballista?

NO. Read the description of the ability. You MUST use the specific weapon (Nightphantom) to use the ability.

monty
2009-02-25, 10:50 PM
Note that you, in fact, WON'T one-hit kill "anything" with this. Constructs and Undead are specifically immune to ability damage, for instance, and there's probably other things that it wouldn't work against.

Not quite.


Undead Type
...Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution)...

Emphasis mine. Right about constructs, though.

RTGoodman
2009-02-25, 10:53 PM
Not quite. [...] Emphasis mine. Right about constructs, though.

Hmm, you're right there. I didn't know that. Yet they're still immune to ALL ability drain.



EDIT: Also, looking at that actual class, it's made for bards, and I'd say the best option for maximizing the Wis damage is to maximize Inspire Courage (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095). Every two points of flat morale bonus you add to damage adds a flat +1 Wis damage, and with all the IC optimization you can do that's quite a bit.

Fishy
2009-02-25, 11:31 PM
Is this a legitimate use for Weapon Specialization?

No? I'll keep looking.

quick_comment
2009-02-25, 11:57 PM
Some things ive thought of:

1) Collision weapon enhancement (+5 damage)

Also, you can still use the ability if larger than small size. You just dont get the wisdom to move silently and hide checks.

So that leads to

2) Giant size, polymorph, etc. Gargantuan size gives what, 4d6 damage?


So we have 4d6+5(enhancement)+5(collision)+10ish(strength)+2( weaponspec)+3ish(inspire courage)

That works out to an average of 19.5 wisdom damage per shot.

Quietus
2009-02-26, 04:53 AM
Weapon focus/spec, greater focus/spec, and Ranged Weapon Mastery would give +4 to hit, +6 damage. Two levels of Ranger picks up Rapid Shot for free, and a pile of skill points - probably do Ranger as your first two levels, and then go Swift Scion. Get a friendly caster to GMW your bow, and carry a few bane arrows for each creature type.

That's +2 strength, +5 GMW, +6 feat, +2 bane. And the potential for +2 favored enemy, if your game focuses largely on one enemy type. For extreme examples of this, get Improved Favored Enemy for +5 instead of +2.

So we're looking at 1d4 +2+5+6+2, before favored enemy. 1d4+15 damage, up to potentially 1d4+20 in very limited circumstances. And that's... incredibly suboptimal, actually.

Then pick up things like Split Arrow, or Penetrating Shot. You know, for the lulz.

Darrin
2009-02-26, 08:38 AM
Unfortunately, it's a very specific bow. This has two implications:
1) Any enchantments you use must be on the arrows, not the bow (unless it's a spell that adds to the bow/arrows, such as Greater Magic Weapon, Flame Arrow, or similar)
2) The strength bonus of the bow is fixed, so strength enhancements don't really help.

If you're talking about Hank's Energy Bow, then neither of these is a problem. From the WotC site:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

1) "The bow can be used to fire normal or magic arrows, but in such cases the bow does not confer its damage due to force." I'm not aware of anything that would prevent further enchantments on the bow... then again, determining what specific weapon enhancement bonuses the bow has would be problematic.

2) "Hank’s energy bow acts as a +2 composite longbow that accommodates a user of any Strength."

And yes, you also get "Power Shot", which works similar to Power Attack, but there aren't any multipliers you can stack on top of it.

Some other ways to boost bow/arrow damage:

* Knowledge Devotion (requires an effing lot of skill points).

* Deadeye (from Dragon Compendium p. 99, *NOT* the lame Deadeye Shot in PHBII) adds your Dex bonus to damage within 30'.

* Stone Power + Lady's Gambit combo can add +0/+5 to all your attacks, including ranged. Add four levels of Crusader and you can go up to +2/+7 with Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike.

* Sighting Gloves soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum), +1 damage/essentia.

* Crystal of Energy Assault, Lesser (MIC p. 64, 3000 GP each) adds various energy damage.

* Bracers of Lighting (MIC p. 206, 11000 GP) adds the shock property to all your melee and ranged attacks as a swift action.

Curmudgeon
2009-02-26, 09:53 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/legendaryWeapons.htm

So its a touch attack, which will amost certainly hit. And it deals straight wisdom damage. You cant power attack with a ranged weapon, and sneak attack/sudden strike dont apply Don't jump to this conclusion.

Bonus damage dice, if any, do not apply to the damage dealt by a dreamstrike arrow. The Craven feat adds +1 point of damage per character level to your sneak attack. This bonus damage is constant, not from dice.

Whats the best way to boost bow damage other than sneak attack? The best way is sneak attack -- with Craven.