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ZeroNumerous
2009-02-25, 10:22 PM
Hi, I'm looking for a pair of rogues who can only be likened to Harley Quinn and the Joker. They need to be able to work together well, and need to be CR 8 or higher to challenge my players effectively. Can someone help me?

Allowed Sources: Complete Series(sans Champion), PHBI/II, DMGI/II, ToB, SpC, MIC, and Heroes of Horror/Battle are acceptable.

Stats/Race: 16/16/14/14/10/10 arranged in any way possible. Human's the race.

Classes: I was thinking of just going rogue 8 with both out of simplicities' sake.

PinkysBrain
2009-02-25, 10:34 PM
The joker doesn't strike me as a pure rogue.

lsfreak
2009-02-25, 10:39 PM
Might want to check out the The Joker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99903) bard. I believe it should be able to be scaled down to the level you're talking about. I'm not sure that's exactly what you're looking for, though.

Assassin89
2009-02-25, 10:48 PM
Base Stats:
Strength: 10
Dex: 18 with stat bumps
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 10

recommended feats include : weapon finesse, Arterial Strike,Hamstring, improved initiative, concussion attack

Draz74
2009-02-25, 10:49 PM
I could see a Master of Masks dip being appropriate for a Rogue with a personality like the Joker ...

Just a dip, though, because the PrC actually stinks.

Combat Trapsmith could also be fun. (Thinking Joker from the animated series here, not so much from the movies.)

Both PrCs in Complete Scoundrel.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-25, 11:58 PM
I'm not sure that's exactly what you're looking for, though.

I'm looking for a comedian-turned-murderer and his lover-turned-accomplice, really. Something that works to both threaten and terrify PCs.


(Thinking Joker from the animated series here, not so much from the movies.)

The campy villain is something I like. I envision the Joker doing something because it's funny, not the Heath Ledger brutal slaughterer type.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-26, 12:44 AM
The Craven feat is always nice. Toss in Swashbuckler levels and Daring Outlaw, and you're good.

The other option for massively creepy is to give them each a few means of creating fear effects without saves. Stack any 3 of those for auto-panicked PCs. That may be too evil, though.

Temp.
2009-02-26, 02:24 AM
I've never seen the Joker or Harley Quinn as a threat to Batman in a straight-out fight. Their advantages were always their craftiness and their ability to catch Batman off guard.

I'd probably go full Master of Masks, maybe tossing in a Warlock level or two to make use of its spellcasting advancement. For feats, I'd probably invest in a few defensive Luck feats. The point isn't for the Joker to beat up the PCs. It's for the Joker to escape to set up a plan for the PCs' future dooms.



If you want Rogue-y teamwork-based combat builds, maybe something like Rogue 4/Warblade 1/Rogue 1/Master of Masks 1/Warblade 1. Invest in White Raven Maneuvers, Diamond Mind Counters and whatever else you want. Improved Initiative is going to be the most important feat.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-26, 02:27 AM
Comedian turned murderer should be Bard IMO. Bards get cool stuff, though. Sublime Chords get cooler stuff.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-02-26, 02:33 AM
Are you looking for builds? I'm pretty sure I can toss some stuff together for you so long as you give me the fluff for them. Though, I am a bit confused by what you mean by a "challenge". Are we talking possible threat to PC lives, or something more along the lines of hard to take down?

krossbow
2009-02-26, 02:44 AM
you want to make the joker proper, you need to probably homebrew it really.




that being said, an invisible blade would do the job admirably. its all about moving around and misleading opponents.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 03:01 AM
Are we talking possible threat to PC lives, or something more along the lines of hard to take down?

I mean something hard to take down.


Comedian turned murderer should be Bard IMO. Bards get cool stuff, though. Sublime Chords get cooler stuff.

Sublime Chord is utterly out of reach in this situation.


I'd probably go full Master of Masks, maybe tossing in a Warlock level or two to make use of its spellcasting advancement. For feats, I'd probably invest in a few defensive Luck feats. The point isn't for the Joker to beat up the PCs. It's for the Joker to escape to set up a plan for the PCs' future dooms.

I like the investing in defensive luck feats idea. Master of Masks I don't like though, because it's a wee bit silly.

So far I've got this:

"Joker" Rogue 4/Warblade 2/Avenging Executioner 2
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

Feats:
Human-Lucky Start
1st-Quick Draw
3rd-Intimidating Strike
6th-Weapon Finesse

Relevant skills: Intimidate +11; Sleight of Hand +11; Skill Tricks: Never Outnumbered; Hidden Blade.

"Harley" Rogue 1/Swash 2/Rogue +2/Swash +3
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 10
CHA: 14

Feats:
Human-Improved Initiative
1st-Two Weapon Fighting
3rd-Daring Outlaw
6th-Staggering Strike

EDIT: Tactics wise, "Harley" will be striking three PCs as often as possible to take advantage of her Staggering Strikes(Fort Save v. Damage Dealt or Staggered for a round). "Joker" then moves in and pops a Staggered PC with a non-lethal shot which renders him/her unconscious unless they get healed before he goes. If "Joker" goes first, he moves in with a quick Sudden Strike and gets an Intimidate check to Shake every PC near him. That makes "Harley"'s Staggering Strikes more likely to hit and less likely to be resisted.

EDIT#2: If "Joker" fails to win initiative, he Lucky Starts for another shot. If that fails, he'll charge and Intimidating Strike a PC, using his Never Outnumbered skill trick to hit every PC in 10ft with that Intimidate combined with his Hidden Blade skill trick to catch the PC flat-footed for a Sudden Strike/Sneak Attack combo. That triggers a DC 15 Will Save or Shaken for two rounds on top of a possible demoralize.

Quietus
2009-02-26, 05:24 AM
Well, for the Joker, you make a Monk... with full ranks in UMD...

Curmudgeon
2009-02-26, 09:30 AM
Hi, I'm looking for a pair of rogues who can only be likened to Harley Quinn and the Joker. They need to be able to work together well, and need to be CR 8 or higher to challenge my players effectively. Can someone help me?

Allowed Sources: Complete Series(sans Champion), PHBI/II, DMGI/II, ToB, SpC, MIC, and Heroes of Horror/Battle are acceptable.

Stats/Race: 16/16/14/14/10/10 arranged in any way possible. Human's the race.

Classes: I was thinking of just going rogue 8 with both out of simplicities' sake. Your applying too many constraints here. If you want Harlequin and Joker you need different classes, like Bard and Arcane Trickster. If you want to make effective pure Rogues you really need more sources, starting with Champions of Ruin for Craven -- the most important Rogue feat of all; I'd also recommend a Fanged Ring for decent unarmed damage, which requires Dragon Magic.

So either loosen the constraints, give up on making Harlequin and Joker, give up on making them Rogues, or give up on the characters being challenging.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 09:42 AM
So either loosen the constraints, give up on making Harlequin and Joker, give up on making them Rogues, or give up on the characters being challenging.

Or, you could read the other posts in the thread rather than just replying to the original one. :smalltongue:

Harperfan7
2009-02-26, 10:12 AM
Not that this goes with Harley Quinn and the Joker, but I've always wanted to throw two twin rogues at my pcs who have combat reflexes, backstab (from Dragon), two weapon fighting, and improved flanking.

Backstab
Pre: Combat Reflexes
Benefit: When you are flanking an opponent with an ally, and the opponent attacks your ally, you get an attack of opportunity.

Improved Flanking is called something else and is in sword & fist.

This is all even better if the pcs only ever see one twin at a time, so that when they both show up and start flank-pwning, its a bigger surprise.

krossbow
2009-02-26, 10:14 AM
Truth be told, if your doing a joker character, you might want to think about having him use alot of alchemical poison flasks that deal wisdom damage (i remember at least one causes insanity and wisdom damage though i forget which one) as well as explosives.

Smeggedoff
2009-02-26, 10:48 AM
well, there's a 20 level jester class in dragon magazine compendium, but that's not on your list of books.

closer is the Divine Prankster from Races of Stone, which would fit well. anything with a class ability to kill someone by telling a joke sounds right to me