PDA

View Full Version : A silly idea for a build (3.5)



ObsidianRose
2009-02-25, 11:31 PM
So I was reading over the rules for monks and flurry of blows, and this thought struck me:

Let's build for 3rd level, since that's the level my group likes to start on. According to flurry of blows, it can be used with any monk weapon. No mention of melee attacks. Same for two weapon fighting. So can whirling frenzy So here's what we do:

32 point buy-
14 Str
18 dex (22 after race and items)
10 Con
10 Int
14 Wis
8 Cha
Halfling (+2 dex, +1 to thrown weapons, +1 to attacks), 2 flaws:
Ring of Reduce Person (2000) (+2 dex, +1 to hit)

Monk 1 (Two weapon fighting, point blank shot, rapid shot)
SA Fighter 1
WF Barbarian (Quick draw)

So at third level, our attack sequence goes like this if you're within 30 feet:

+4/+4/+4/+4/+4 (1+1d6+1 each or 5.5 each, if you catch the opponent flat footed like you should, or if they're flanked). If you hit with each attack, that's an average of 27.5 damage every full attack.

So with dexterity optimized, you should go first, and that's enough to down most reasonable CR enemies.

Could anyone help me optimize this? The idea is a warrior who throws a ridiculous number of shuriken. Anything else is just more fun.

As an aside, the build's naked armor class is 10 + 2 + 2 + 6 + 2. We can probably con a mage armor from a friend, so that's take the grand total to 26.

Edit: changed dead level to WF barbarian, switched weapon to shuriken, changd race to halfling, added a ring

Keld Denar
2009-02-26, 02:01 AM
4 levels of Bard, and fill the remaining levels with Warblade. Take Song of the White Raven and Dragonfire Inspiration. Get your IL high enought that you get Dancing Mongoose. Also take 5 levels in Master Thrower.

By mid levels, you should attack
3 time from iterative
1 time from Flurry
1 time from Rapid Shot
3 times from GTWF
1 time from Haste
2 times from Dancing Mongoose
=11 attacks per round
Palm Throw doubles to 22 attacks.

Each throw should get about 5d6 fire damage from Dragonfire Inspiration

Thats 110d6 fire damage per round at mid levels. Oh, and they are all touch attacks.

I made a similar build without monk here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11

Thats where I got most of the idea from. A slightly better idea would be to nab a level of Monk in there and Flurry Shuikens, as they count as ammo making them easier to GMW en mass.

Rowan Arquest
2009-02-26, 09:59 AM
congratualations... you win at life. :smallbiggrin:

Heliomance
2009-02-26, 10:07 AM
There is only one way this can be improved.

Try and persuade your DM that chickens count as Monk weapons.

Eldariel
2009-02-26, 10:13 AM
Thats 110d6 fire damage per round at mid levels. Oh, and they are all touch attacks.

Screw Fire-damage. Be Dragonborn, get Platinum Dragon-heritage, pick Sonic-type and call it Sonic Boom!

lvl 1 fighter
2009-02-26, 12:15 PM
All that is if your DM allows you to Quick Draw more than one Sai per round. Yes, it's a free action, but the DM could reasonably limit the number of the same type of free actions in a turn.

Also, with +2 as your attack bonus I wouldn't count on having every one hit. Maybe 1 out of 4. A 3rd level NPC Fighter (from the DMG) could have an AC of 23 if they used a Tower Shield instead of Large Shield. You caught him flat-footed? Now his AC is 22. You still need a natural 20 to hit him.

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-02-26, 12:19 PM
All that is if your DM allows you to Quick Draw more than one Sai per round. Yes, it's a free action, but the DM could reasonably limit the number of the same type of free actions in a turn.

Also, with +2 as your attack bonus I wouldn't count on having every one hit. Maybe 1 out of 4. A 3rd level NPC Fighter (from the DMG) could have an AC of 23 if they used a Tower Shield instead of Large Shield. You caught him flat-footed? Now his AC is 22. You still need a natural 20 to hit him.

Well, then ways to improve this should be trying to up your AB somehow. I'm not a great optimizer so I'm not really sure how well this would work, but that seems like a fine idea.

You could even enchant the Sai with the Returning enhancement so that you wouldn't even need to draw a new one every round. Then you'd be like a Boomerang Monk, throwing your sai over and over again, with it doing an arc, striking your opponent, and flying back into your hand.

-JM

lvl 1 fighter
2009-02-26, 12:44 PM
While Boomerang Monk sounds cool and would make a good name for a rock band, the OP said this is for ECL 3. So no Returning weapons.

Ways to help though, could include tanglefooting the target first. Or have the Sorcerer Glitterdust the target.

Wait.

Are you using Rapid Shot to get one of those extra attacks? Because that's not legal. Rapid Shot can only be used with Ranged Weapons. Having a range increment does not make the Sai a ranged weapon.

According to the SRD:
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

Radar
2009-02-26, 12:56 PM
Hmm... if returning weapons are not available, then carrying enough ammo can be a serious issue - up to 22 Sai for a round can be kind of a burden.

Ascension
2009-02-26, 01:13 PM
Hmm... if returning weapons are not available, then carrying enough ammo can be a serious issue - up to 22 Sai for a round can be kind of a burden.

The shurikens would probably be a better idea, given that they count as ammunition. Sais would be cool, but shurikens are more practical.

valadil
2009-02-26, 01:21 PM
All that is if your DM allows you to Quick Draw more than one Sai per round. Yes, it's a free action, but the DM could reasonably limit the number of the same type of free actions in a turn.


I'm not sure where it's written but in Living Greyhawk free actions were limited to 7 or 8 per turn.

tyckspoon
2009-02-26, 01:21 PM
Hmm... if returning weapons are not available, then carrying enough ammo can be a serious issue - up to 22 Sai for a round can be kind of a burden.

You would need 22 anyway- Returning doesn't bring the weapon back until your next turn. And you need a free hand to catch it, so you'll just end up with two sai in hand and then a pile of twenty on the ground in your square. The only means (that I know of) to get away with using just one throwing weapon for multiple attacks is the Lightning Ricochet feature from the ToB throwing class- Bloodstorm Blade, I think?

Zherog
2009-02-26, 01:38 PM
Wait.

Are you using Rapid Shot to get one of those extra attacks? Because that's not legal. Rapid Shot can only be used with Ranged Weapons. Having a range increment does not make the Sai a ranged weapon.

You're not quoting enough of that entry in the SRD:


Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

...

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

So it's still not perfectly clear. At the beginning of the paragraph, we have a list of thrown weapons, and that list excludes sais. However, later in the same paragraph it defines a weapon designed to be thrown as one that includes a ranged increment.

I'm inclined to go with the definition rather than the list. I think doing so, however, is against the intent of the text later in the paragraph - especially if you take into consideration weapons appearing in later source books. If the list were the definition, those weapons wouldn't count; but if you go with the "any weapon that has a range increment' definition, you're set in future books.

*

As for returning weapons... even ignoring the "level 3" aspect, it doesn't help completely. A returning weapon does not come back until the beginning of your next turn. And even then, you must have a free hand to catch the weapon. So even if you could somehow acquire, for example, four daggers with returning, you could only catch two of them at the start of the next round when they all came flying back to you.

edit: doh! Tyckspoon said the same thing. I took a while to make my reply, then didn't read the rest of the thread when I remembered I wanted to mention the returning thing... *sigh* stupid work interrupting my typing...

Ascension
2009-02-26, 01:43 PM
The only means (that I know of) to get away with using just one throwing weapon for multiple attacks is the Lightning Ricochet feature from the ToB throwing class- Bloodstorm Blade, I think?

It's Bloodstorm Blade, yes.

The fun thing about a Monk/Bloodstorm Blade would be that you could use any Monk weapon, not just the ones you're intended to throw. Want to flurry at range with a quarterstaff? Kama? YOUR FISTS?* You can!


*May still require a Kensai dip and the Throwing enhancement. Will ALWAYS require a lenient DM. Still awesome.

Zaq
2009-02-26, 01:45 PM
All that is if your DM allows you to Quick Draw more than one Sai per round. Yes, it's a free action, but the DM could reasonably limit the number of the same type of free actions in a turn.


Quick Draw [General]
Prerequisite

Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.

A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).

Emphasis mine. Quick Draw explicitly allows you to draw and throw as many weapons as you have attacks.

Zherog
2009-02-26, 01:51 PM
No, Quickdraw allows you your normal rate of attacks. I think it could certainly be argued that haste isn't part of your normal rate. I think there's also potential to argue that TWF and Rapid Shot are also not "normal" rate, but that's a bit more tenuous.

edit: to be clear, I certainly allow Quickdraw to permit a character to make all his/her attacks in a round with thrown weapons. I'm simply saying that I think there's enough vagueness to the definition to give a more stingy DM wiggle room to deny some of those attacks.

lvl 1 fighter
2009-02-26, 02:31 PM
Re: Quick Draw

As a DM, I would probably allow a character to draw and throw enough to get all their extra attacks (haste, rapid shot, etc). i just wanted to point out that there could be a reasonable limit.

Re: Ranged Weapons

It is clear. Some melee weapons have the capability to be thrown. This does not change their category to Ranged Weapons. Rapid Shot states that it is to be used with Ranged Weapons.


Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Emphasis mine.

Some weapons have dual categories. The dagger, for instance, is both a Melee Weapon and a Thrown Weapon. By definition, a thrown weapon is a Ranged Weapon and so the dagger qualifies for use with Rapid Shot.

A Sai is a Melee Weapon that can be thrown with the -4 penalty because it has a range increment.

For some reason, the Sai is the only melee weapon in the SRD that has a range increment that is also not listed as a thrown weapon. Whatever the reason for this, the result is that it is not a ranged weapon and therefore does not qualify for Rapid Shot.

edit: I just re-read your post Zherog. I think we're saying the same thing. The Sai is weird.

Zherog
2009-02-26, 02:40 PM
edit: I just re-read your post Zherog. I think we're saying the same thing. The Sai is weird.

I think we're pointing to the same rule, but saying the opposite, actually. I contend that the key to the quoted section is this:


It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.

That, to me, seems to be defining a thrown weapon as any melee weapon that has a range increment. You seem to be defining it based on the list of weapons at the beginning of the paragraph. (please correct me if I'm wrong.)

The sai is definitely weird, either way.

lvl 1 fighter
2009-02-26, 02:50 PM
That, to me, seems to be defining a thrown weapon as any melee weapon that has a range increment. You seem to be defining it based on the list of weapons at the beginning of the paragraph. (please correct me if I'm wrong.)


I think that about sums it up. I'm going by the list, whereas you're going by the function of it. I can see arguments for it either way, I suppose.

But really, who throws a Sai?

Zherog
2009-02-26, 03:01 PM
But really, who throws a Sai?

The OP. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2009-02-26, 03:11 PM
What, you've never seen the Live Action TMNT movie? Raphael throws his at a light to shroud himself in darkness so he can ninja-vanish. He laments the loss for about 1/3 of the movie before he finally recovers it.

Regardless, the list is a poor choice for "all inclusive" because it doesn't include any weapons in the DMG (published at the same time) or any other book...which it shouldn't. Thats why they include that rule (weapon with a ranged incriment) in the paragraph to allow for future supliments.

lvl 1 fighter
2009-02-26, 03:19 PM
What, you've never seen the Live Action TMNT movie? Raphael throws his at a light to shroud himself in darkness so he can ninja-vanish. He laments the loss for about 1/3 of the movie before he finally recovers it.

Regardless, the list is a poor choice for "all inclusive" because it doesn't include any weapons in the DMG (published at the same time) or any other book...which it shouldn't. Thats why they include that rule (weapon with a ranged incriment) in the paragraph to allow for future supliments.

The list doesn't need to be all inclusive because of the prior clarification of melee and ranged weapons. I should clarify. I'm not really basing my argument on the list. I'm basing it on the SRD quote about melee and ranged weapons. It gives the definitions of both. My reading of the rule says, "some melee weapons can be thrown. this does not change their status to Thrown Weapons."

I admit, it is strange that the Sai is the sole exclusion. But as far as RAW goes, that's how I see it.

Zherog
2009-02-26, 03:30 PM
The list doesn't need to be all inclusive because of the prior clarification of melee and ranged weapons. I should clarify. I'm not really basing my argument on the list. I'm basing it on the SRD quote about melee and ranged weapons. It gives the definitions of both. My reading of the rule says, "some melee weapons can be thrown. this does not change their status to Thrown Weapons."

Sure it does.


Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

(emphasis mine, of course)

A ranged weapon is a thrown weapon or a projectile weapon. So the next question, of course, is, "What's a thrown weapon?" And that is where we seem to be picking nits and splitting hairs. I'm offering the following as a "reverse" definition of a thrown weapon:


It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.

That seems to say that a weapon that does have a range increment is a thrown weapon.

However, like a lot of other things, they certainly could've done a much better job with the definition.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-26, 03:33 PM
You underlined the wrong thing, Zherog.
Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

Keld Denar
2009-02-26, 04:04 PM
Well, that depends on where you break the sentance.

Is that final clause "that are not effective in melee" inclusive of both thrown and projectile weapons? Or is it broken into "thrown weapons" and "projectile weapons that are not effictive in melee"? You could parse it out two ways:

1) Thrown weapons that are not effective in melee + projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
2)Thrown weapons + projectile weapons that are not effective in melee


Given that there ARE thrown weapons that are effective in melee (see Dagger, Hand Axe, Club) I'm given to believe that the 2nd reading.

ObsidianRose
2009-02-26, 04:36 PM
So fine, we switch out sai for shuriken, which are on the list of acceptable weapons. I think I'll throw some bard in there, but no ToB. The point is to use pretty silly classes, like fighter and monk, to make a silly amount of damage.

Alright, for the two hit, there's always bardic music, but there have to be better ways to up the to hit. Any advice?

SoD
2009-02-26, 05:36 PM
*snip*


Monk 1 (Two weapon fighting, point blank shot, rapid shot)
SA Fighter 1
WF Barbarian (Quick draw)

*snip*

Just as long as you take the level of monk before the barbarian level. Ex-monks loose nothing but alignment and the ability to take another level of monk.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-26, 06:09 PM
YOUR FISTS?[/SIZE]


I...must do this. If for no other reason than to construct a Final Fantasy Tactics Monk. Win.

Flickerdart
2009-02-26, 06:20 PM
Take the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian variant. You get Pounce. Why use Shuriken when you can use something better? Optimize STR instead of DEX.

MustacheFart
2009-02-27, 01:45 AM
I...must do this. If for no other reason than to construct a Final Fantasy Tactics Monk. Win.

I did this in a game about a month ago after I got help with a build for it here.

Basically, I went unarmed swordsage, gave myself the Mighty Arms graft, got myself two battlefists, enchanted them with Throwing, and *BOOM* blast off! While I found it absolutely full of win, the DM didn't. I got to play the guy for one session then the campaign ended. Something about being a 1 man party and the rest of the group not needing to do anything??? We were only level 6! We then started a new game with everyone starting at 1st level and ToB not allowed LOL.



Take the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian variant. You get Pounce. Why use Shuriken when you can use something better? Optimize STR instead of DEX.

I think that's kind of getting away from the concept the OP wants.

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-02-27, 03:42 AM
I know we lose some of the coolness of the ninja weapons, but if you really want to get crazy with your actions per round, you could try out Rich's Halfling Rock Skipping Champion. Basically, the class lets you use thrown stones as projectiles and "skip" them off opponents, letting you hit multiple enemies with each throw.

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/CsORDNEyp2GRLIhacLj.html

It's kinda amusing. Granted, you wouldn't hit a whole lot, but the occasions where your attacks connect and your skips work, you'll be rolling a LOT of attacks per round with this build.

edit: I just realized this PrC might not let you use Flurry of Blows or anything like that to gain multiple attacks. If that's the case, forget it.

-JM

ObsidianRose
2009-02-27, 11:56 AM
The main point of the build is stacking different classes that give lots of attacks, so rocks are a no go, since monks can't flurry with them.

I checked with my DM, and he said sais are okay as throwing weapons. After reading through the SRD, apparently, reduce person doesn't alter thrown weapon size.

So someone, sell me on sai vs. shuriken.

Also, is it worth it to switch to jungle halfling for poison use? I like the concept of forcing 5 fortitude saves every round.

Zherog
2009-02-27, 12:00 PM
The biggest advantage of shuriken over sai is that shuriken can be enchanted as ammunition, so you get 50 of 'em every time you plop down cash.

MammonAzrael
2009-02-27, 12:53 PM
The biggest advantage of shuriken over sai is that shuriken can be enchanted as ammunition, so you get 50 of 'em every time you plop down cash.

That and it's much more likely for a DM to OK throwing 22 shuriken over 22 sais.