PDA

View Full Version : 4e feat from d372



cupkeyk
2009-02-26, 02:20 AM
My friend has a subscription for Insider but i don't and he isn't replying but i need info. Maybe you great guys and gals could help me out instead.

What's that feat called that lets a wizard use magic missile as a melee basic attack? what are the prereqs? What tier is it?

Inyssius Tor
2009-02-26, 02:44 AM
Reaper’s Touch
Prerequisites: Invoker, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard class
Benefit: You gain a benefit with any of the following attack powers you know.
Avenging Light (invoker, see Player’s Handbook 2, page 103): This power gains a range of Melee touch in addition to its normal range. You can use it as a melee basic attack.
Acid Orb (sorcerer, see Player’s Handbook 2, page 138): This power gains a range of Melee touch in addition to its normal range. You can use it as a melee basic attack.
Dragonfrost (sorcerer, see Player’s Handbook 2, page 139): This power gains a range of Melee touch in addition to its normal range. You can use it as a melee basic attack.
Eldritch Blast (warlock, see Player’s Handbook, page 132): This power gains a range of Melee touch in addition to its normal range. You can use it as a melee basic attack.
Magic Missile (wizard, see Player’s Handbook, page 132): This power gains a range of Melee touch in addition to its normal range. You can use it as a melee basic attack.

I'm trying not to just rip things from the Compendium here; I would actually like to talk about this feat. I like it. It opens up new venues.

Are there any ways that this feat might be combined with other abilities? I know that you can't use it with other melee powers, but... hm. What keys off of "melee basic attack" that might synergize with this?

EDIT: I saw someone on the official wizards board complaining that this feat would BREAK THE WIZARD FOREVER, since it somehow automatically made them A BETTER DEFENDER THAN THE FIGHTER COULD EVER BE. That just cracked me up, after I got over the sheer headbanging wrongness of that viewpoint.

Or am I belittling that opinion undeservedly? Are there hidden depths to the wizard that had hitherto lain unconsidered?

cupkeyk
2009-02-26, 03:11 AM
Super thank you.

i would like to point out that with a master's wand of magic missile, you're clubbing people and pushing them around too with a wand.

It really makes great synergy with a warlord too.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-26, 03:29 AM
EDIT: I saw someone on the official wizards board complaining that this feat would BREAK THE WIZARD FOREVER, since it somehow automatically made them A BETTER DEFENDER THAN THE FIGHTER COULD EVER BE. That just cracked me up, after I got over the sheer headbanging wrongness of that viewpoint.

Or am I belittling that opinion undeservedly? Are there hidden depths to the wizard that had hitherto lain unconsidered?

Seeing that you mostly take this feat for fun, because unless you're fighting kobolds, are surrounded or have your back against a wall you can usually just shift one square back and fire the magic missile safely, I'd say these people are just stupids.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-26, 03:36 AM
Well... unless they makes feats like this for other non-STR classes at Heroic, it adds Wizards to the list of classes with scary OAs. It's weird that monsters should worry about walking around wizards, since wizards are supposed to have beatsticks nearby to keep the uglies from getting too close.

I think throwing a -2 modifier on the attack when used in Melee might keep things OK. Give the Wizards a decent OA (and make them Commander Strike-ready) but keep the accuracy down so that it isn't quite Fighter-good.

I mean, imagine a Staff Wizard with Magic Missile and Thunderwave. Dude'll be in the melee as often as the Fighter - particularly if a 1st level Warlord is now able to use Commander Strike to get an extra +4 v. Reflex attack out of him.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 03:37 AM
Well, looking at it the ability is now a Melee Basic Attack. So any ability that lets you take a Melee Basic Attack(say.. Commander's Strike) now allows a Wizard to fire a Magic Missile. Further, any item that boosts Melee Basic Attacks(say.. Iron Armbands of Power) now boosts Magic Missile. Moreover, anyone stupid enough to trigger an OA from you(say.. Brutes) now gets Magic Missile'd.

We now have an At-Will which targets Reflex, can be boosted by virtually every item that Fighter/Rogues use to boost their attacks, and deals moderate damage(2d4/4d4+INT).

It's more effective as a Basic Ranged Attack, but it's an interesting development that could turn the Wizard into a pseudo-striker.

cupkeyk
2009-02-26, 03:49 AM
The war wizard build option is a sub-striker. Take Jim Darkmagic for example. He was that party's striker even after Wil Wheaton joined.

AgentPaper
2009-02-26, 03:52 AM
I like this, would be a nice feat for a spiral tower wizard. (Or whatever that paragon path is that gets the longsword melee attack) Wizard still has to be careful in the front lines, but this makes it easier for them to pull it off.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-26, 03:57 AM
The war wizard build option is a sub-striker. Take Jim Darkmagic for example. He was that party's striker even after Wil Wheaton joined.

Hey, here's an idea: Have the Battle Mage PP have this "feat" replace its stupid Arcane Retribution feature; it's a fine Paragon Power and it would make that PP worthwhile.

RebelRogue
2009-02-26, 08:31 AM
Well, looking at it the ability is now a Melee Basic Attack. So any ability that lets you take a Melee Basic Attack(say.. Commander's Strike) now allows a Wizard to fire a Magic Missile.
Yes, but only if he is within melee range.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 08:32 AM
Yes, but only if he is within melee range.

Of course, but if you care enough to take this feat then you care enough to get some use out of it, no?

Asbestos
2009-02-26, 09:54 AM
I fear that after the issue is compiled that feat may end up being Shadar-kai only. It's listed under the Shadar-kai racial feats, every feat around it is Shadar-kai specific, and the name is even fluffed to sound like the other Shadar-kai powers. That being said... the power isn't all that great, I mean, I think my Wizard has been forced to make only a single melee attack in the sessions I've been playing him. It would be interesting with the dwarven hammerlock builds, since they now have a melee attack that targets reflex, but otherwise... I'm not too impressed.

Aoric
2009-02-26, 11:19 AM
Seeing that you mostly take this feat for fun, because unless you're fighting kobolds, are surrounded or have your back against a wall you can usually just shift one square back and fire the magic missile safely, I'd say these people are just stupids.

I would think campaign context would have a large impact on whether or not one would pick this feat - sure, in my friend's largely outdoors campaign, there's ample room to move around. In the game I'm running, which lately has been largely underground with limited mobility options, this feat would be good. Especially when the Kruthiks swarmed the group from the sides, rather than straight on.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-02-26, 12:28 PM
It looks like a neat way to let peeps like Warlocks go without gimped melee weps so they can make decent opportunity attacks. It's not broken so much as it is convenient.

Wizard_Tom
2009-02-26, 12:54 PM
I fear that after the issue is compiled that feat may end up being Shadar-kai only. It's listed under the Shadar-kai racial feats, every feat around it is Shadar-kai specific, and the name is even fluffed to sound like the other Shadar-kai powers. That being said... the power isn't all that great, I mean, I think my Wizard has been forced to make only a single melee attack in the sessions I've been playing him. It would be interesting with the dwarven hammerlock builds, since they now have a melee attack that targets reflex, but otherwise... I'm not too impressed.

Could always check the character builder to see if it allows no Shadar-Kai to take it.

Asbestos
2009-02-26, 12:55 PM
Could always check the character builder to see if it allows no Shadar-Kai to take it.

Yeah, but that doesn't get updated until the compiled issue comes out.

Izmir Stinger
2009-02-26, 01:57 PM
That issue introduced a lot of feats like this that modify at wills for a handful of classes. Some of them seemed ill thought out, like they were trying desperately to get one for every at-will before the print deadline.

Artanis
2009-02-26, 02:46 PM
It doesn't look so bad. It mostly looks like it'd only really be useful if A) they're stuck in melee and don't have anything better to do, or B) if something like Commander's Strike gives them a free melee basic attack. Even with this power, I don't see Wizards rushing up to the front to start zapping enemies when they could hang back and zap enemies without standing next to something big, mean, and carrying a huge axe.

And it's not like Magic Missile's damage is particularly impressive. Its average damage in Heroic is just 5, and of the nine one-hand military melee weapons in the PHB, six average either 4.5 or 5.5. AV has a similar proportion. And those melee weapons tend to have extra effects like Brutal on them, plus they have much better enchantments for this sort of thing (wands in particular tend to be really bad for upping a melee Magic Missile's effectiveness).

Eldritch Blast is better in the damage department, but only by half a point in Heroic.

Finally, being vs. REF isn't as big a deal as it seems when you consider that you aren't getting a proficiency bonus. Yes, it can help a lot of times...but a lot of times it won't, either.


tl;dr:
I don't think it's that bad because Wizards and Warlocks are still squishy, Eldritch Blast and Magic Missile aren't massive damage-dealers, and using an implement-based attack isn't all it's cracked up to be when compared to a weapon-based attack (assuming similar stats).

Inyssius Tor
2009-02-26, 02:51 PM
That issue introduced a lot of feats like this that modify at wills for a handful of classes. Some of them seemed ill thought out, like they were trying desperately to get one for every at-will before the print deadline.

Really? Three feats is "a lot"?

Anyway, I really didn't get that impression at all. Two of those feats seemed really interesting. I admit that, going by the rules, I don't see much point in Blighting Power (which adds necrotic damage and the Necrotic keyword to some elemental powers), since... no, I guess I could see it if you were fighting a lot of cold-resistant things.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-02-26, 02:52 PM
It looks like a neat way to let peeps like Warlocks go without gimped melee weps so they can make decent opportunity attacks. It's not broken so much as it is convenient.

Right, but "convenience" is what starts breaking down the barriers in class roles. Currently, ranged characters have poor OAs while melee characters have poor ranged attacks. If you convert your +3 v. AC Dagger to a +4 v. Reflex Scythe at level 1, it's not so bad, but it does mean that Wizards can start handling their own melee.

Normally armor would be a problem, but the Dwarven Staff Mage (INT 16, CON 16) can already handle melee OK on his own. Would it break the game? No, but I worry whenever WotC starts poking wholes in the 4E axioms.

cupkeyk
2009-02-27, 12:52 AM
it doesn't even have to be dwarven staff wiz. A standard wizard will have high int and will want to pick up armor prof leather, making his AC at par with a rogue's.

i don't really see myself wading into combat though, but i like this feat so that I now have an option of pushing brutes who close on me away with thunderwave (vs fort) or magic missile(vs ref, with a master's wand). i still want to be as far away from the action as possible.

mathewt
2009-02-27, 09:19 AM
Yeah, but that doesn't get updated until the compiled issue comes out.

Well, the compiled issue's out now and the feat's not listed as Shadar-kai only.

Izmir Stinger
2009-02-27, 01:33 PM
Really? Three feats is "a lot"?

Maybe it was spread out over other issues. I know there are a lot more than 3. Most of the ones for martial classes are called "Fighting Styles." About half a dozen feats like this come up every time I make a character in the Character Builder Beta. I know they all come from Dragon Magazine, but I can't say for sure if they all had the same issue number.

Alot of them also let certain races ignore what would otherwise be the prerequisite. It would be like: Any martial class, Str13&Wis13 OR Dwarf.

eepop
2009-02-27, 09:19 PM
Actually no, those are all from an issue that coincided with the release of Martial Power.

They later revealed that much of the stuff in that article (best article yet printed since DDi by the way) were things that they had considered putting into Martial Power but had got cut for space concerns, etc.

I'm not saying that they didn't possibly try to squeeze out a few more for the article, but that article was hardly lacking for content. No one would have whined had they put only half of those feats in there. So it stands to reason that if they are in there its because they thought it filled a niche. My party has used about 6 different ones so far in our various campaigns I think.

Asbestos
2009-02-27, 09:30 PM
Well, the compiled issue's out now and the feat's not listed as Shadar-kai only.

Oh, weird. I still feel its an oversight, but even if not, I don't think its too much, I can think of many better/tastier feats that my wizard will take. It doesn't make a ton of sense for sorcerer's since they apparently have a feat that lets them use all their spells at melee range. Could be nice for an invoker since they already have heavy armor... *shrug*



Alot of them also let certain races ignore what would otherwise be the prerequisite. It would be like: Any martial class, Str13&Wis13 OR Dwarf.
So? I think the names of those feats suggested that they were a fighting style that could trace themselves back to the particular race mentioned, I think that's pretty much the point. Its like a pseudo racial feat.

mathewt
2009-02-27, 09:35 PM
Oh, weird. I still feel its an oversight, but even if not, I don't think its too much, I can think of many better/tastier feats that my wizard will take. It doesn't make a ton of sense for Sorcerer's since they apparently have a feat that lets them use all their spells at melee range. Could be nice for an invoker since they already have heavy armor... *shrug*

In one of my games I bet our starlock would love the feat...he repeatedly gets surrounded in melee to the point where he ends up having to actually use melee basic attacks.

Izmir Stinger
2009-02-27, 09:54 PM
So? I think the names of those feats suggested that they were a fighting style that could trace themselves back to the particular race mentioned, I think that's pretty much the point. Its like a pseudo racial feat.

Yeah... just pointing out this defining detail to help others recognize what I was talking about.

The long list of feats I was thinking of (at least 8) are from issue 368, not 372 like this one. I guess they decided they liked feats like this and added three more in a later issue.