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View Full Version : Usefulness of Cosmic Fire?



magic9mushroom
2009-02-26, 02:29 AM
As in, the capstone of Sublime Chord. How useful is it? And how high can a Perform check be rigged to get maximum effectiveness from it?

Keld Denar
2009-02-26, 02:38 AM
Sublime Chord is bad. Well, at least its abilities are. There is really no reason you should take that PrC past level...2 max. Advance it with another PrC that full advances casting, and you get all the fun and goodness of SC casting, with none of the suck that is contained in its other class features. The most common thing I see is to grab 1 level of Virtuoso (CAdventurer) at some point before you hit level 10. Then, take Sublime Chord 1 and maybe 2 at levels 11 and 12. Then to back and take the next 8-9 levels of Virtuoso. That gets you some neat tricks from Virtuoso, while advancing the amazing casting of Sublime Chord.

So yea...to answer your question....Cosmic Fire is bad. You get it at level 20. At level 20, you should be casting 9th level spells with reality bent over your knee while you repeatedly paddle its backside for existing in a manner unfit for your believe. Oh, and do it while Shapechanged into a Solar....it'll make your point better.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-26, 02:53 AM
You didn't answer my second question.

Anyone game?

Hawk7915
2009-02-26, 03:11 AM
I've never played it but my gut tells me its pretty subpar. In general, a blasty spell has to be really savage(no save or no SR) to be worth it for a primary caster. Now, Cosmic Fire does damage based on a skill check which is a unique and potentially awesome ability...but unlike other broken skills, it seems hard to optimize the crap outta this one. A Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 probably has ~+31 to his perform (23 ranks, some masterwork/magic instrument, and at least +5 from CHA), so Fire hits for an average of 41 damage, reflex for half (or none for those with evasion). That's usable ten times per day, which is good...but this seems worse than even Fireball, which most Wizards agree is average at best and worthless at max level. Fireball hits for an average of 30, but as a 3rd level spell the wizard can stack up metamagic to make it much deadlier.

So, usefulness? Well, in a practical campaign without obsessive optimization, it beats burning precious 9th level slots on a Meteor Swarm to those mooks' faces, but as a Bard especially you should focus on buffs (Haste, Inspire, etc) and Save or Die spells like Irresistible Dance, which is 6th level for you. You'll probably only using Cosmic Fire to mop up the poor dancing fools that the fighter didn't kill.

EDIT: Best I can think of while sleep deprived: A Celadrin with LA buyoff:
23 (ranks) + 7 (CHA 24) +3 (Cloak of Charisma +6) +2 (Masterwork Instrument) +3 (Skill Focus) +4 (Racial) +4 (Greater Heroism) = 46

Keld Denar
2009-02-26, 03:17 AM
You didn't answer my second question.

Anyone game?

With or without cheese?

Cheesiest way I can think of is Nanobots. Find a cleric. Find a billion objects that fit into the Fine catagory. Have cleric cast Animate Objects over and over, and command them to follow your commands. Order objects to "aide another" you. They only have to hit a DC10, and even with severe penalties for being freakin animated objects, some will still suceed. Repeat animation every day for the rest of the clerics life. Congrats, you now have a +arbitrary large number to your perform check. You strike a power chord with your Lute that causes the world to implode.

Non-broken ways...

Item Familiar (+level to any one skill)
Vest of Legends (DMGII) (+5 Perform)
Custom item of +perform. DMG caps at +30 pre-epic.
Anything that boosts +cha
Improvisation Spell
Divine Insight loaned to you via Spell Storing item or Imbue with Spell spell
Inspire Competance on yourself, or have another bard do it
Exemplar levels. Not sure if you can fit em all in before you hit level 20 and still get all your SC mojo in, but if you could, you can take 10 on perform and you get a +4 competance bonus.

And probably a dozen other things I can't place right now. Not all of the ways I mentioned above stack.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-26, 03:20 AM
I've never played it but my gut tells me its pretty subpar. In general, a blasty spell has to be really savage(no save or no SR) to be worth it for a primary caster. Now, Cosmic Fire does damage based on a skill check which is a unique and potentially awesome ability...but unlike other broken skills, it seems hard to optimize the crap outta this one. A Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 probably has ~+31 to his perform (23 ranks, some masterwork/magic instrument, and at least +5 from CHA), so Fire hits for an average of 41 damage, reflex for half (or none for those with evasion). That's usable ten times per day, which is good...but this seems worse than even Fireball, which most Wizards agree is average at best and worthless at max level. Fireball hits for an average of 30, but as a 3rd level spell the wizard can stack up metamagic to make it much deadlier.

So, usefulness? Well, in a practical campaign without obsessive optimization, it beats burning precious 9th level slots on a Meteor Swarm to those mooks' faces, but as a Bard especially you should focus on buffs (Haste, Inspire, etc) and Save or Die spells like Irresistible Dance, which is 6th level for you. You'll probably only using Cosmic Fire to mop up the poor dancing fools that the fighter didn't kill.

+30 to skill items exist. And a Cha of 38 isn't particularly hard. Some feats and you're looking at 80-90 Perform checks (23 ranks, +14 or so from Cha, +30 item, +15 or so from feats). I'm wondering whether there's anything I missed.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-02-26, 03:38 AM
Keld Danar has got most of it, although I will say that if you're going for the non-cheesy way, a level of Marshal would double the bonus from Cha.

Fishy
2009-02-26, 03:56 AM
Well, the great thing about Sublime Chord is that it's its own casting class: No 'lost spell levels' to worry about. So as long as you have enough Bard, the first 10 levels of your build really don't matter. Slap some Truenamer in there for Universal Aptitude, because why the heck not?

Keld Denar
2009-02-26, 09:25 AM
Yea, you either need 8 levels of bardic spellcasting, or 1 level of Bard and 5 levels of wizard or 6 levels of sorcerer. This frees up 2-4 levels in there to take whatever you want and still get 9th level spells.

Heck, because Kobalds do it better, you could be a Bard1/Sorcerer3/X6/SC10 if you use take Dragonwraught and both the Greater Draconic Rite and the Loredrake template. That would give you 6 levels of sorcerer spellcasting in only 3 levels. The 6 levels open could land you 5 levels of Exemplar and 1 level of Marshal. Granted, thats about the cheesiest way you could build this, and you could still take advantage of most of the things I mentioned above.