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Myou
2009-02-26, 05:29 AM
I'm running a solo campaign right now and we're starting off with a module (Scourge of The Howling Hoarde), but once that's done I want to move into a longer term storyline with a villain from the player's past.

The villain I want is a level 6 or so sorcerer (not really beatable by the time they meet him, but someone they can beat in a few levels time) who specialises in using necromacy and 'cursing' enemies (he cursed the player's mother, who is now sick).

Having never build a character like that I'd love some help with it.

Relevant Houserules;

1. Your Hit Dice always give maximum HP.

2. Healing spells that restore HP have their dice doubled.

4. You die at the half the additive inverse of your HP. If your HP is x you die at 0.5*-x.

17. Ability points that have been permanently drained or lost being raised from the dead can be restored by Wish or Miracle. In cases where the ability in question provides benefits at each level (such as bonus HP from Constitution) those benefits are recalculated with the new ability score.

18. Full spellcasters who can cast a limited number of 0th level spells per day now have an infinite number of 0th level slots and the ability to cast 0th level spells without preparation (and to freely apply metamagic enhancements they know at the time of casting as long as doing so does not raise the level of the spell slot required), even if they couldn't do so before. If they wish to enhance a 0th level spell with any metamagic that raises the slot level this houserule does not apply.

20. You cannot artificially increase your caster level beyond 1.5 times its natural level. (E.g. at level 10 a sorcerer cannot have a caster level beyond 15.)

21. When a character gains a permanent Intelligence increase he gains skill points retroactively. He gains appropriate skill points for all of his character levels rather than just for current and future levels. For example a wizard who begins play with 17 Intelligence and uses his 4th level ability boost to increase his score to 18 immediately gains seven skill points rather than just one. Remember that items which boost ability modifiers do not give extra skill points/hit points, etc.

lvl 1 fighter
2009-02-26, 05:41 AM
If you've never built a Necromancer before, I would scrap the sorcerer and make him a Dread Necromancer, from Heroes of Horror.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759515

arguskos
2009-02-26, 05:46 AM
Or, for a different twist, play a Death Master from Dragon Compendium. Not optimized, but damned fun (you get an Undead Minion; think Animal Companion, but zombie!).

Myou
2009-02-26, 06:16 AM
If you've never built a Necromancer before, I would scrap the sorcerer and make him a Dread Necromancer, from Heroes of Horror.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759515


Or, for a different twist, play a Death Master from Dragon Compendium. Not optimized, but damned fun (you get an Undead Minion; think Animal Companion, but zombie!).

Thanks for the suggestions, but it specifically has to be a sorcerer, since the player has already met him. ^^;

lvl 1 fighter
2009-02-26, 06:23 AM
DN's are spontaneous casters, same as sorcerers...

Do you want the traditional Necro with zombies and skellys following you around? 'Cus Clerics do that better than a straight Sorcerer or Wizard would. Maybe a Cleric / Master of Shrouds.


If not, then I'd go Sorcerer / Dread Witch. It's a fear based PrC also from Heroes of Horror. Use spells like Cause Fear, Scare, Wave of Grief, Crushing Despair, etc.

Myou
2009-02-26, 06:41 AM
DN's are spontaneous casters, same as sorcerers...

Do you want the traditional Necro with zombies and skellys following you around? 'Cus Clerics do that better than a straight Sorcerer or Wizard would. Maybe a Cleric / Master of Shrouds.


If not, then I'd go Sorcerer / Dread Witch. It's a fear based PrC also from Heroes of Horror. Use spells like Cause Fear, Scare, Wave of Grief, Crushing Despair, etc.

Yes, but the guy told the player's party that he was a sorcerer. ^^;

I mean, I could say he lied, but that wouldn't really make sense.

Sorcerer/Dread Witch might work.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-26, 06:47 AM
He could have described himself as a Warrior, but that doesn't necessarily mean he has levels in the Warrior NPC class. Just the same, in-character the title of Sorcerer could be a general description of any spontaneous arcane spellcaster, not necessarily someone with levels in the Sorcerer class. Go with Dread Necromancer, it's a really fun class, and don't worry that the rest of the players may be a bit confused on which spell list he casts from.

Khatoblepas
2009-02-26, 06:47 AM
Yes, but the guy told the player's party that he was a sorcerer. ^^;

I mean, I could say he lied, but that wouldn't really make sense.

Sorcerer/Dread Witch might work.

Class does not always equal profession.

A wizard could be a powerful sorcerer. A warlock could be a sorcerer. A Dread Necromancer is just a specialised kind of sorcery. I could say I am a powerful wizard, a sorcerer, or a witch, and I could still be the same class. Metagame terminology doesn't have to match up with dialogue.

Heck, DNs even get itty bitty familiars.

[edit]Gotterdammerung! Ninjas!

Myou
2009-02-26, 07:34 AM
Look, guys, the character is from the player's backstory and is definately 100% guaranteed to be a sorcerer. I get that there are other classes that can spontaniously cast arcane spells etc, but his class is already chosen, it's sorcerer.

I'm just looking for help making a sorcerer who specialises in necromancy and curses. He doesn't have to command armies or undead, but he does need a few undead minions.

I'm well aware that sorcerer isn't the optimal class, but the player hates sorcerers and the guy was identified in and out of game as one. If hi build is going to be really weak he can always have a few extra levels.

So I'm looking for suggestions for the spells and feats he should take. And PrCs are fine too, even cheesy ones like incantatrix.
Oh, and I've left all published sources open.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 08:41 AM
The only complaint I have and must say before I begin is that you are not required to make him a sorcerer. He can be a Dread Necromancer very easily and still call himself a sorcerer.

Since he's a 6th level spontaneous arcane caster then he has access to Animate Dead. Give him that, pick some necromancy spells(Ray of Enfeeblement is a good one) and you're basically done.

Paramour Pink
2009-02-26, 08:56 AM
I can;t give much advice here, but I'd like to suggest the Undead Leadership (page 129 of crystal keep (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf)) feat. Get yourself a cohort that's pretty much...not living! Fitting, if not much more. :smallsmile:

Myou
2009-02-26, 10:10 AM
Good suggestions, thanks.

What about other feats he should take?
And any other spells with curse-like effects.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-26, 10:51 AM
The Necromancy Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=599129) and the Tome of Necromancy (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=599129) homebrew. Since you're DM, I especially recommend the second if you want undead to make sense.

Now, onto your questions:Sorcerers are bad at Necromancy. The spells known mechanic is not kind to downtime spells such as Create Undead and Animate Dead. They don't get Rebuke Undead or Desecrate, either, and Command Undead is only useful if you're fighting Necromancers, not if you are one. However, if you won't be a Charisma-based spontaneous spellcaster with a spells known list composed entirely of Necromancy spells, then you have to make Sorc work. I recommend Wanding Create/Animate dead, snagging a few of the good rays, and then focusing feats on the Corpsecrafter line in Libris Mortis. Exploding overpowered Undead Chickens of DOOM!!!

magic9mushroom
2009-02-26, 11:20 AM
Sorcerers get Animate Dead at level 8. Problem.

Sorcerers never get Rebuking. Problem.

Sorcerers have to burn one of their extremely limited slots on Animate Dead once they get it. Problem.

Your best bet is for him to have Command Undeaded a Wight and used Create Spawn to get the zombie wight apocalypse going. Backing it up with the nastier ability-sappers and such.

Pay attention to those who say Dread Necro though.

Draz74
2009-02-26, 11:46 AM
Be sure to pick up Blindness/Deafness, as it's the main way to be able to permanently curse someone (e.g. the character's mother) before Level 8 (when Bestow Curse becomes available).

lvl 1 fighter
2009-02-26, 11:48 AM
Unfortunately, I don't have the Heroes of Horror book anymore. But the Dread Witch is pretty cool and I think is your best bet if you want to stick with Sorcerer. With all the reasons mentioned above about why Sorc is bad for the job, the DW can give him a little more scary flavor and some neat Necromancy, Fear abilities. IIRC they can eventually get past creatures immunity to fear. Also, they get a bonus to Fear effect DC's.

The Veil of Allure (MIC) and Amulet of Awesome Might (Dragon Magic) would be useful for this guy. The Veil adds +2 DC for Enchantment spells, and the Amulet is +2 DC Fear effects.

//////////////

Got another idea too. Not exactly what you said you're looking for, but something to think about. Maybe a Cohort for your Sorcerer.

Bard / Dirge (singer? master? i forget. again, HoH)

The feat Captivating Melody gets you another +2 DC to your enchantment spells. SF, GSF, etc. The spell Haunting Tune is both a Enchantment AND Fear effect. Weird, no?

There's another couple feats floating around that mess with Bardic Music. One lets you affect Undead, i think. There's another one in HoH that changes it to a Fear effect based on perform ranks, maybe. It's been a while.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-02-26, 02:39 PM
Good suggestions, thanks.

What about other feats he should take?
And any other spells with curse-like effects.

My suggestions:

Ray of Enfeeblement hitting the party meat-shield will be very obnoxious to encounter
Command Undead is a 2nd level spell. Learn it, love it, live it.
Blindness/Deafness is also 2nd level
If your party is heavy into the buffing, Dispel Magic might be of incredible use
Stinking Cloud is oddly appropriate "A thick, choking fog which reeks of embalming fluids pours forth..."
Ray of Exhaustion is a nasty combo partner with Enfeeblement
Hasting his undead minions make them much nastier
Slow is very appropriate for a necromancer


Black Tentacles is also quite appropriate for Delvers of Forbidden Knowledge
Contagion is a 4th level spell, he needs to be 8th level to cast it, but it will inflict a sickness.
Enervation, Bestow Curse, and Create Undead are all also 4th level spells

Arcane necromancers really don't hit their stride until they start getting 4th level spells. Once they do, they start becoming effective, but I really don't see him being able to challenge the party effectively while remaining exclusively in the whole necro shtick until he his 9th-10th level.

Now, if he wants, he could pick up some non-necro spells like Glitterdust, Hideous Laughter, and Scorching Ray. He wouldn't be very necromantic, but it would be very effective.

Eeezee
2009-02-26, 06:28 PM
If you really want to make a sorcerer (I still don't understand why, since you're the DM and can say "oops made a mistake, he's actually class X" with no retribution)

You need to make him at least level 8, so that he has access to 4th level arcane spells. You don't get many real necromancy spells until this level. For minions, all he'll really have is Command Undead, which is partial control of a single already undead creature. Lame

But then look at 4th level necromancy spells:
Animate Dead (minimum level to cast this = 32 HD worth of minions)
Bestow Curse
Contagion
Enervation
Fear

Those are all staples of a good necromancer, and at level 8 you only get to cast one of them. I'd recommend buffing your necromancer slightly and drawing out the campaign a little more. Or give him some weakness that makes fighting a lvl 8 necromancer easier for a lower level party.

For other levels of spells, look for spells that do cold damage or general ability damage. That's pretty necromancer-like. And probably Protection from Good or Magic Circle Against Good

Seriously, you can't make a level 6 sorcerer feel like a real necromancer and have him be an effective villain at all without some crazy magic items (that he'd normally never have access to)

Draz74
2009-02-26, 06:48 PM
since you're the DM and can say "oops made a mistake, he's actually class X" with no retribution

... and the characters (as opposed to the players) wouldn't even have to know the difference, because their world can just have a different definition of "sorcerer" than the D&D rules have ...

But hey, I already posted my best advice, trying to be cooperative. :smallwink:

Temp.
2009-02-26, 07:14 PM
If you must make him a Sorcerer in-game, go Sorcerer 1/Dread Necromancer X.

Otherwise, just grab a bunch of Necromancy and Summon Undead spells. Treeantmonk's guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1000627) to the spell schools usually is a safe go-to for quick spell list generation. SU is in Libris Mortis and the SpC. You might also find it in Heroes of Horror.

But really, you're the DM. You don't need to follow the rules, just throw together the abilities you want and call it a day.
For spells? Command Undead, standard action Summon Undead, Bestow Curse, Desecrate, Spectral Hand, Blindness/Deafness, Stinking Cloud, Rays of Enfeeblement, Clumsiness, Weakness and Exhaustion, maybe a Benign Transposition and done.
For abilities? Undead creation (use it however you want), Rebuke Undead, extended Summon Undead spells, decent Fortitude, Will and HP. Maybe toss in a couple undead traits and call it a day.

lsfreak
2009-02-26, 08:15 PM
I can see why you want to keep it with sorcerer since you already said he was (and I disagree that "oops I made a mistake, he's a cleric now!" approach; yea you're the DM but that doesn't mean you can go back on your word). If it was said completely in-character, and not as the DM, then you can says that either a) the guy way lying, trying to fool the player, or b) "sorcerer" has a broader meaning than the class. After all, the NPC's don't go around announcing that they are a fighter, or a paladin, or a cleric. They say "I'm trained to squish you with a hammer," "I fight in the name of my god," or "I heal the sick and tend the wounded." "Sorcerer" is a generic term for anyone wielding magic - the common person probably doesn't even know enough to distinguish a wizard from a sorcerer. The BBEG might even believe himself to be a run-of-the mill sorcerer and not know that he's a "dread necromancer," after all that's just another name.

If you said as the DM that he's a sorcerer, however, I'd go over it much more carefully before deciding to change it. He really would be better off being a dreadnecro, though.

Myou
2009-02-27, 06:20 AM
Thanks for all of the excellent advice, guys!

I'll make him level 8 or 9, although the 'party' is tiny, just the player and whoever he might hire to help him, so I don't have to worry quite so much about him being too weak.

And like Isfreak said, I can't just tell the player "Oh, I changed my mind, he's not a sorcerer at all, because there's a better spontanious class that will make things harder for you.", but that's ok, because there's no reason I can't just give the sorcerer a few more levels and whatnot.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-27, 06:30 AM
Thanks for all of the excellent advice, guys!

I'll make him level 8 or 9, although the 'party' is tiny, just the player and whoever he might hire to help him, so I don't have to worry quite so much about him being too weak.

And like Isfreak said, I can't just tell the player "Oh, I changed my mind, he's not a sorcerer at all, because there's a better spontanious class that will make things harder for you.", but that's ok, because there's no reason I can't just give the sorcerer a few more levels and whatnot.

What did you actually tell them?

Any Dread Necromancer would claim to be a wiz or sorc if asked...

JellyPooga
2009-02-27, 07:43 AM
And like Isfreak said, I can't just tell the player "Oh, I changed my mind, he's not a sorcerer at all, because there's a better spontanious class that will make things harder for you.", but that's ok, because there's no reason I can't just give the sorcerer a few more levels and whatnot.

That the Dread Necro is more powerful isn't the issue, but the theme and style of the character is. Sorcerers (as the Class) just don't make that good Necromancers, either mechanically or thematically. Wizards? Yes. Clerics? Yes. Sorcerers? Not so much. Especially at earlier levels (i.e. Lvl. 10 or less). They simply don't have access to the sort of abilities that you think of when you think "Necromancer'.

On the other hand, a Dread Necro does have access to all those abilities. They're dark and look creepy and specialise in fear and undead minions. They slowly become a lich, with all the appearance and physical attributes that are entailed in that. All of this from the get-go. Sure, Dread Necros make better Necromancers mechanically, but that's because they're designed specifically for the job. Sorcerers play a better role as a more generalised caster...someone that can lob a Fireball then cast Fear, followed by Magic Missile and Fly. A Dread Necro simply doesn't have those options. The difference in 'power level' is negligible, if present at all...a Level 6 Sorcerer has the same CR as a Level 6 Dread Necro, the difference is that a Dread Necro of that level feels like a Necromancer but the Sorcerer feels more like a guy that can cast some spells that are technically Necromantic because that's what spell school they're in.

If you want a typical Necromancer, then Dread Necro is your friend (followed by Cleric, then Wizard most likely)...Sorcerer is not. Even Warlocks have a more "Necromancery Feel" than Sorcerers do in early levels. Retroactively 'changing' from Sorcerer to Dread Necro is simply not an issue when you haven't even created stats for him yet. If the last encounter your players had with this guy had him casting Fireball at them or some other spell a Dread Necro doesn't have access to, then yeah, you've got an argument, but seeing as you're looking for full build advice, I'm assuming that he didn't. As has been pointed out, Class and Nomenclature are not the same thing; A Rogue (class) could say he's a Thief, Spy, Scout, Thug, Warrior...hell even a Magician (high Sleight of Hand skill). If you've had an NPC tell the PCs that he's a Sorcerer, that could mean anything; Wizard, Warlock, Wu Jen, Warmage, Sorcerer, Dread Necro...even Clerics or Druids or Rogues with high UMD might be called an "Evil Sorcerer".

If you, the DM, have told the Players that he's of the Sorcerer Class, then there's still not a problem...they'll just have to be surprised when you pull out abilities that they weren't expecting. Use the change to your advantage...if they go to the fight expecting a Sorcerer and get a Dread Necro, then it will just be a talking point and be cause for excitement. I very much doubt your players will be all "OMG, the DM said that we were fighting a Sorcerer and he totally went back on what he said and made it a Dread Necro. What a douche"...if I know gamers then they'll much more likely say "Do you remember that time we fought the evil Necromancer and you said it'd be a Sorcerer, but you made him a Dread Necro? Yeah, I was well surprised when he wailed on my wizard with Charnel Touch! Jeez, I wasn't expecting it, but that was cool!".

Anyway, that's my 2p on the subject of Sorcerer vs. Dread Necro.

As far as advice for building a Necromancer Sorcerer goes, your Spells Known options are very limited at such low levels, but Summon Undead is pretty much a must with no other way to legitimately raise the undead (barring DM fiat). For Curses, you're a bit stuck...Blindness/Deafness is really the only 'curse' you'll have access to. You might want to look at Feats to cover that gap; I'm sure there are some feats out there in a similar vein to Daunting Presence that could be re-fluffed to represent curses. Beyond that, I'm afraid I can't really be of any more help than the advice others have already given (but I can heartily reccomend the Tome of Necromancy link that someone else has already provided).

Whatever you decide, I hope you have a blast with it (and ham-up his part to the nines...everyone like OTT Necromancers!) :smallwink:

Irreverent Fool
2009-02-27, 08:29 AM
Thanks for all of the excellent advice, guys!

I'll make him level 8 or 9, although the 'party' is tiny, just the player and whoever he might hire to help him, so I don't have to worry quite so much about him being too weak.

And like Isfreak said, I can't just tell the player "Oh, I changed my mind, he's not a sorcerer at all, because there's a better spontanious class that will make things harder for you.", but that's ok, because there's no reason I can't just give the sorcerer a few more levels and whatnot.

Yes you can. The definition of 'sorcerer' is pretty lose. Giving the character a few more levels is a cheaper trick and mechanically likely to make things more difficult and less interesting in play than building the kind of character you'd intended in the first place.

But if you're dead-set on him being a sorcerer (which I don't blame you for since you said you've never built a character like this before), there are some things to look for.

First of all, I'm just going to assume this character is a human, giving him an extra feat at level 1. You said you'll make him level 8 or 9. I'm going to choose 9 since it gives us yet another feat to play with.

Feat Progression
1
1
3
6 -Undead Leadership
9

I'm filling in 'undead leadership' for 6th level as was suggested above, but really as a DM, you don't need to give your NPCs leadership in order for them to have minions and as a player leadership is granted at your DM's whim anyway so you can't really include it in a build. I don't know the details of the feat offhand. Crystal Keep only offers a brief description but does say that the feat can be found in the Libris Mortis. If you don't have that book, I'd just wing it there.

Spell Progression (known)
1 -5 known
Ray of Enfeeblement
2 -4 known
Spectral Hand, False Life, Blindness/Deafness, Touch of Idiocy
3 -3 known
Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch
4 -2 known
Contagion, Animate Dead

For flavor purposes, I really think your sorcerer should have had a familiar at one point... which died. This gives him the opportunity to have used Animate Dead Familiar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011209a), giving him a cool zombie cat or something to follow him around. The spell itself is level 5, but sorcerers can use scrolls and it's not unreasonable for him to have acquired one.

Animate Dead is a 4th level spell for sorcerers, so that will probably be taking up one of those two 4th-level slots he has. It's a rather expensive spell, but according to the RAW is a standard action as long as you can touch the corpse from where you are. A good way for this guy to show up would be for him to attack just after your player has killed some particularly nasty critter and then animate it during the fight. I wouldn't suggest he have minions other than the familiar right off the bat, just because raising a zombie in the middle of combat drives the whole 'I'm a necromancer' thing home a little better.

If you'd rather, fill that slot with an actual Bestow Curse spell. I think there's enough 'curses' handy elsewhere, but it's up to you.

I'm not sure if someone mentioned it yet, but I'd probably spend a feat slot on Spell Focus: Necromancy to make those 'curses' a little more deadly.

The Spectral Hand spell is a must, allowing him to make any of his touch-range curses as ranged touch attacks. False Life is another must-have for a necromancer. As a sorcerer, False Life is pretty powerful as he can essentially use it as a healing spell and he's got lots of spell slots to burn.

As a suggestion for the second 4th-level slot, Contagion. It is a rather nasty spell and really suits the 'curse' theme.

The various fear spells are pretty powerful. I'd stay away from them unless you're sure the PC will make his saves, resulting in merely being shaken.

Magic Missile is a must-have for any sorcerer. Levitate and Expeditious Retreat are handy as well, allowing your necromancer to get out of harm's way while minions and curses do the heavy lifting.

I don't really have any further suggestions at the moment. It's late. I'll revise this post later. Just make this guy really mean. If you take Bestow Curse, remember that by far the worst one is the '50% chance to do nothing each round' one. I'd be careful about using that on the player. As was suggested above, Blindness/Deafness and other curses on family members or other loved ones is essential for any villain of this nature.

obnoxious
sig

Myou
2009-03-03, 05:00 AM
More great advice, thanks everyone!

I think that with the limited experience my player has I might get away with just making him a dread necromaner and not telling him.

Luckily I have a few days to make up my mind.

Thurbane
2009-03-03, 09:46 PM
There's a good feat in Libris Mortis for your character concept:

STITCHED FLESH FAMILIAR [GENERAL]

Benefit: When choosing a familiar, you may choose a stitched flesh familiar.

Instead of the noted special ability, a stitched flesh familiar grants its master the ability to control 4 more Hit Dice of undead than he is normally capable of controlling (both through the rebuke undead ability and through spells such as animate dead).