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Heliomance
2009-02-26, 08:29 AM
Two first level commoners, having a fist fight. Neither of them has Improved Unarmed Strike. One of them swings, proccing an attack of opportunity from the other. Lacking a weapon, he takes it with his fist. Unfortunately, not having IUS, he procs an AoO from the first commoner. He takes the opportunity to swing, proccing an AoO in the process...

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 08:31 AM
You can't make an AoO with a weapon you aren't proficient with to begin with.

Heliomance
2009-02-26, 08:32 AM
So they take Weapon Proficiency (Unarmed Strike). The still proc AoOs without IUS.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-26, 08:34 AM
You can take only one AoO in a round, unless you have Combat Reflexes which grant you a number equal to your dexterity bonus.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 08:34 AM
So they take Weapon Proficiency (Unarmed Strike). The still proc AoOs without IUS.

So they get proficiency in unarmed attacks with.. Simple Weapon Proficiency? Oh, wait, it's not a simple weapon. So lets try Martial Weapon Proficiency.. Nope, not a martial weapon. Exotic Weapon Proficiency? Not one of those either..

IUS = Unarmed Weapon Proficiency. It's impossible to do this with two Commoners by RAW.

Now.. Two monks by RAW, that's another story.

kamikasei
2009-02-26, 08:35 AM
Commoner A swings, provoking.

Commoner B takes the provoked AoO, provoking in turn.

Commoner A takes the provoked AoO, provoking, but since neither have Combat Reflexes, this exhausts their opportunities to take AoOs.

Result: commoner A moves to hit B; he leaves himself open in the process, but when B moves to take advantage of the opening A gets a quick jab in before following through with his main punch. (Depending on who actually gets to land a hit, this may work out differently.)

Tengu_temp
2009-02-26, 08:36 AM
Actually, by RAW monks aren't proficient in unarmed strikes either. And by RAI everyone is proficient in unarmed strikes, if you ask me.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 08:37 AM
Actually, by RAW monks aren't proficient in unarmed strikes either. And by RAI everyone is proficient in unarmed strikes, if you ask me.

Precisely why by RAW this would work for a little while for a pair of 2nd level monks. At least until they exhaust their AoOs.

kamikasei
2009-02-26, 08:39 AM
Actually, by RAW monks aren't proficient in unarmed strikes either. And by RAI everyone is proficient in unarmed strikes, if you ask me.

I would argue that unarmed strike isn't a proper weapon that requires proficiency in the first place - by RAW, not just RAI.

Heliomance
2009-02-26, 08:41 AM
Bah. A pair of Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds with Improved Combat Reflexes then.
I think the Chunky Salsa Rule might be in effect here.

And ZN, it doesn't work with Monks. IUS stops you from proccing AoS.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-26, 08:41 AM
Precisely why by RAW this would work for a little while for a pair of 2nd level monks. At least until they exhaust their AoOs.

...What? They might not be proficient by RAW but they still have Improved Unarmed Strike, which means their unarmed strikes don't provoke AoO.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 08:44 AM
On Monks: A monk could not qualify for IUS or get it Chaos Shuffled away. I don't know how the first part could possibly come about and the second part would require enough wizard levels that punching is ridiculously pointless but it's possible.

EDIT: On Kobolds: Then they'd just roll to-hits and, if they hit, damage rolls until one of them dies. Nothing special happens.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-26, 08:47 AM
Bah. A pair of Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds with Improved Combat Reflexes then.
I think the Chunky Salsa Rule might be in effect here.


Apart from what ZN said, it still doesn't work:


Prerequisite: Dex 21, Combat Reflexes
Benefit: There is no limit to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in one round. (You still can't make more than one attack of opportunity against a single person in a round.)

Orran
2009-02-26, 08:49 AM
Also you cannot take an AoO if you don't threaten, and unarmed strikes don't threaten.

Heliomance
2009-02-26, 08:51 AM
That's not what the SRD says.

Benefit

There is no limit to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in one round. (you still can’t make more than one attack of opportunity for a given opportunity.)

If they have unlimited attacks of opportunity, you get the infinite loop happening. Each AoO happens before the action that provoked it, and each one provokes a new one. As long as you have unlimited AoOs, no attack ever gets resolved.

Aquillion
2009-02-26, 08:53 AM
Just make them monks, so they threaten, then give them Improved Combat Reflexes and something that grants DR higher than their fists can do on a critical. Difficult, but not impossible.

However... they're not required to take their attacks of opportunity. So it lasts for exactly as long as it takes one of them to realize that it is pointless and stop. Sure, they could go back and forth forever, but unless you have a way to profit from that it's not very important...

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 08:55 AM
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm)

Emphasis Mine. So you can take more than one AoO against one opponent. Ultimately, however, it doesn't matter. They just spend six seconds beating the crap out of one another until one dies. Like I said, nothing special happens.

Tengu_temp
2009-02-26, 08:56 AM
That's not what the SRD says.


Either Realmshelps or the SRD is wrong, then (or has an outdated version of the feat). Let's assume that the loop is legal...

And it's still nothing special. They simply punch each repeatedly in a very short time until one of them goes down. Seen it a million times in shonen anime, and nobody raised an eyebrow when 4e Frenzied Berserker got an ability that works exactly like that (only with weapons). Surely not an infinite loop.

ZeroNumerous
2009-02-26, 08:59 AM
Now if you wanted something special to happen they'd need the Sadist(or Masochist feat, I forget which) and ten levels in Frenzied Berserker. As long as the FB is raging, he can't die and the entire infinite loop takes place only in 6 seconds. They deal Infinite damage to one another, then gain +Infinite on skill checks, attack rolls, and saves for a round due to the aforementioned feat.

Douglas
2009-02-26, 09:01 AM
If the combatants have Improved Unarmed Strike, then their unarmed strikes do not provoke AoOs and this loop never starts because neither is provoking. If they don't, then they don't threaten with their unarmed strikes so neither is able to take any AoO that might be provoked and the loop never starts. Combat Reflexes is irrelevant because even the first AoO never happens.

Now if you make it two epic combatants, each with Robilar's Gambit (PHBII), epic feat Improved Combat Reflexes, and a way to stay alive and conscious regardless of damage (Frenzied Berzerker works), then if they each choose to take every AoO offered they both inflict infinite damage to each other almost instantaneously.

kamikasei
2009-02-26, 09:01 AM
It's not a loop, but a regress. Who actually throws the first punch? Who gets the advantage of being the first to deal damage, and therefore be more likely to be the one left standing?

Tengu_temp
2009-02-26, 09:02 AM
Now if you wanted something special to happen they'd need the Sadist(or Masochist feat, I forget which) and ten levels in Frenzied Berserker. As long as the FB is raging, he can't die and the entire infinite loop takes place only in 6 seconds. They deal Infinite damage to one another, then gain +Infinite on skill checks, attack rolls, and saves for a round due to the aforementioned feat.

And then they use their infinite bonus in Craft (Paintings) to draw world's most breathtakingly beautiful pictures before dying. Talk about sacrificing yourself for the art!

Starbuck_II
2009-02-26, 09:03 AM
Actually, by RAW monks aren't proficient in unarmed strikes either. And by RAI everyone is proficient in unarmed strikes, if you ask me.

Dude, we had this discussion on the forums. By Raw no is proficient in unarmed strikes unless ytou have simple weapon proficiency or you are a Druid.
Because yes, it is a simple weapon (check the simple weapon table).

And no, RAI isn't everyone being proficient.
Now, RAIW (Rules as I Wish): might be everyone is proficient, but not by RAI or RAW.

Riffington
2009-02-26, 09:11 AM
I would (house?) rule that you can't make a second attack of opportunity before you make the first attack of opportunity. What with the coming after and all.

Insanely fast flurries of blows are awesome, but they should require proficiency with the weapon being used.

/of course, I'd also claim that monks are proficient with their fists... RAM be darned.

Heliomance
2009-02-26, 09:14 AM
It is an infinite loop due to the fact that attacks of opportunity get resolved before the attack that provoked them. Thus, every single attack provokes a new one before damage is rolled. I'm really not sure what happens, because you have an infinite chain of attacks, none of which get resolved because they provoke an AoO which has to be resolved first. And yet it all has to be over in six seconds, so they don't just stand there temprally froze/eternally blocking and countering.

Unarmed strikes not threatening is a slight problem, and one I'd not noticed. There must be a way around it though... *delves into books*

Hmm, Robilar's Gambit doesn't help, as it's an exception to the rule about AoOs resolving first. Arrow Mind stops you from provoking. Is there any weapon that both threatens and provokes?

A further thought. Assuming we find a way to make this work, consider a long line of people a la the Commoner Railgun. Person A swings, proccing from B, who takes the attack and procs from C. C's attack procs an attack from D, and so on down the line.
A has a contingent dimension door set to go off when Z attacks Y. What happens? Because of the chain of attacks each of which happens before the move that provoked it, Z makes his attack significantly before A. A then DDs away, meaning he never made the attack that set off the whole process.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-02-26, 09:19 AM
You do not threaten any squares when unarmed unless you have improved unarmed strike. You only provoke AoOs from opponents who threaten you, neither combatant threatens the other, and nobody ever makes an AoO for the entire fight.

Eloel
2009-02-26, 09:32 AM
Do a Sunder attack without Improved Sunder with every AOO. You provoke a new one with every Sunder attack :)

Fishy
2009-02-26, 10:59 AM
"I try to break his sword with my sword."
"Before he does that, I try to break his sword with my sword."
"Before he does that, I try to break his sword with my sword."
Etc, etc.

The Glyphstone
2009-02-26, 11:08 AM
Let this thread stand as a testament to the power of these forums....even a thread about lowly commoners will eventually devolve into a Monk debate...

Mando Knight
2009-02-26, 11:16 AM
Seen it a million times in shonen anime, and nobody raised an eyebrow when 4e Frenzied Berserker got an ability that works exactly like that (only with weapons).

Because the 4E Frenzied Berserker is 4E's Ken (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Bleach)ny (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BloodKnight). And thus by association, awesome in its insanity.

RebelRogue
2009-02-26, 11:48 AM
And then they use their infinite bonus in Craft (Paintings) to draw world's most breathtakingly beautiful pictures before dying. Talk about sacrificing yourself for the art!
Hilarious :smallbiggrin:

Tokiko Mima
2009-02-26, 01:01 PM
Umm.. doesn't Combat Reflexes limit you to a number of AoO equal to your Dexterity modifier? So this wouldn't be an infinite loop, unless it was two Pun-Pun's with NI Dex hitting each other from across the multiverse with their infinite reach.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-26, 01:04 PM
Umm.. doesn't Combat Reflexes limit you to a number of AoO equal to your Dexterity modifier? So this wouldn't be an infinite loop, unless it was two Pun-Pun's with NI Dex hitting each other from across the multiverse with their infinite reach.Venerable(Age Category) Dragonwrought(Feat) Kobolds qualify for Epic feats no matter the level. Improved Combat Reflexes has no limit on the number of AoOs you can take a round. That's what's currently being assumed.

Occasional Sage
2009-02-26, 02:11 PM
Venerable(Age Category) Dragonwrought(Feat) Kobolds qualify for Epic feats no matter the level. Improved Combat Reflexes has no limit on the number of AoOs you can take a round. That's what's currently being assumed.

Infinite AoO doesn't get you around the issue of threatening. If unarmed, you don't threaten (as mentioned a couple of times above) unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike). Therefore, you MUST HAVE that feat to take any of those infinite AoO.

For an infinite loop of AoO, both combatants need to have Improved Unarmed and Improved Combat Reflexes.

BUT, once both have IUS, there are no AoO provoked; the feat makes you "armed," meaning that the whole argument is short-circuited.



Threatened Squares

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

(emphasis mine)



Improved Unarmed Strike [General]
Benefit

You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

(again, my emphasis)

What am I missing that makes people think this is possible?

Khanderas
2009-02-27, 04:30 AM
Let this thread stand as a testament to the power of these forums....even a thread about lowly commoners will eventually devolve into a Monk debate...
You say that like Monks are not commoners ? :smallwink:

Sholos
2009-02-27, 04:55 AM
On Monks: A monk could not qualify for IUS or get it Chaos Shuffled away. I don't know how the first part could possibly come about and the second part would require enough wizard levels that punching is ridiculously pointless but it's possible.

I point you to the monk entry, specifically the part that gives them Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at first level. Doesn't matter if they actually qualify for it or not (same with all bonus monk feats). So, no, it doesn't work.

Heliomance
2009-02-27, 10:48 AM
Infinite AoO doesn't get you around the issue of threatening. If unarmed, you don't threaten (as mentioned a couple of times above) unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedUnarmedStrike). Therefore, you MUST HAVE that feat to take any of those infinite AoO.

For an infinite loop of AoO, both combatants need to have Improved Unarmed and Improved Combat Reflexes.

BUT, once both have IUS, there are no AoO provoked; the feat makes you "armed," meaning that the whole argument is short-circuited.


(emphasis mine)


(again, my emphasis)

What am I missing that makes people think this is possible?

Nothing, the base trick as posted doesn't work. I'm curently looking for something that lets you threaten without stoping you provoking. I'm sure there must be something.

RandomLunatic
2009-02-27, 01:31 PM
Well, I suppose you could have Commoner A and Commoner B face off with Longswords (or any other non-reach weapon they are not proficient with). A, liking his hit chances better, swings at B with his fist, provoking. B takes the AoO with his own Unarmed Strike, for the same reason. Repeat ad naseum until one of them breaks the chain by taking the AoO with their sword. Or falls upon it.

monty
2009-02-27, 01:39 PM
B takes the AoO with his own Unarmed Strike, for the same reason.

How do you plan to do this if the unarmed strike doesn't threaten?

Talya
2009-02-27, 01:45 PM
Also you cannot take an AoO if you don't threaten, and unarmed strikes don't threaten.


Repeated for emphasis. Only armed characters threaten squares around them. You are not considered armed when barehanded unless you have improved unarmed strike.

Keld Denar
2009-02-27, 02:00 PM
Ok, so 2 Dragonwraught Kobalds with Improved Combat Reflexes (but lacking Improved Sunder) stand adjacent to each other armed with maces.

Kobald A attempts to sunder Kobald B's weapon, which provokes since he doesn't have Improved Sunder.
Kobald B takes his AoO, and decides to sunder Kobald A's weapon, which provokes because he doesn't have Improved Sunder either.
Kobald A takes his AoO, which he uses to sunder Kobald B's weapon. This provokes because he doesn't have Improved Sunder.

Repeat ad nosium until one decides not to claim the AoO. Since AoOs happen immediately before the event that triggers them, neither kobald would lose his weapon until at least one would resolve. Since neither kobald can resolve the sunders, they just stack up to infinity.

Kalirren
2009-02-27, 02:06 PM
You could make a magical equivalent of the Commoner Railgun as described above by having a bunch of wizards in a circle, each casting a spells as an immediate action in response to the one before them casting a spell, then having a contingent antimagic field on the whole group land in response to the last one taking effect.

Of course, this paradox reduces to the paradox of my having an antimagic field set to go off around me contingent on one of my spells (that is not wall of force) taking effect.

I suppose this would mean that the only spell I am allowed to cast is AMF, since everything else is paradoxical?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-02-27, 08:41 PM
How to Kill A Great Wyrm Red Dragon: 2 Fighter 1s. They are both armed with a longsword and both have the feats combat reflexes and improved combat reflexes. They decide to have an unarmed duel. They threaten due to their longswords, but they only use their fists, provoking the cycle. After a very large number of AOOs, one of them attacks the other with his longsword and hits. The other has a baleful transportation contingent item (CA). GWRD killed knocked out in one turn by 2 1st level fighters and a 600gp magic item.

monty
2009-02-27, 08:46 PM
...Fighter 1...improved combat reflexes...

:smallconfused:

Also, that doesn't work anyway. How many times do we need to go over this?

ericgrau
2009-02-27, 09:42 PM
I have a theory that all movie fencers have combat reflexes but not improved disarm. And they spend the entire fight trying to disarm the other. I mean, how often do you see them actually poke eachother? It always ends in a disarm. That's also why there's so much elaborate clanking, several times within 6 seconds even. It's all those AoO's. As further evidence, I submit the scene near the end of Princess Bride when 3 guards try to charge past Inigo Montoya (to attack Wesley IIRC). Inigo stabs all 3 of them. See? He has combat reflexes.

Frosty
2009-02-27, 10:04 PM
Do we have to do this AGAIN? I already created a thread about Monks and Unarmed Proficiency like 4 or 5 months ago (or was it more recent?).

I think just about everyone agreed that whoever wrote the monk and the weapons table deserves to be shot for the un-clearness of the whole thing.

herrhauptmann
2009-02-28, 02:35 AM
Ok, so 2 Dragonwraught Kobalds with Improved Combat Reflexes (but lacking Improved Sunder) stand adjacent to each other armed with maces.

Kobald A attempts to sunder Kobald B's weapon, which provokes since he doesn't have Improved Sunder.
Kobald B takes his AoO, and decides to sunder Kobald A's weapon, which provokes because he doesn't have Improved Sunder either.
Kobald A takes his AoO, which he uses to sunder Kobald B's weapon. This provokes because he doesn't have Improved Sunder.


Was pretty sure that AoO's were only basic attacks. If you can perform a specific attack action, the chain tripper gets even better.
For the two kobolds that decide to attack barehanded instead of using their longswords, can you make an AoO with a weapon you are not proficient in?

For the loop

If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn
And if my RAW is different from everyone elses, you know what? This is the point where the DM should step in and slap someone.

Keld Denar
2009-02-28, 03:29 AM
Nope, AoOs are attack actions. By RAW, and attack action is almost all of the "special attack actions" near the end of the Combat chapter of the PHB. Initiating a grapple, initiating a trip, initiating a sunder, and initiating a disarm are all viable responses when someone provokes from you.

And no, the unarmed kobald option wouldn't work. Regardless of proficiency, UASs NEVER threaten UNLESS you have IUS. Thems the rules. Kobalds actually have bite and claw attacks though, so they could claim AoOs with them, but thats not condusive to my example.

And its a recursive loop. If you know anyhting about computers, it would look like this:

KA attempts to sunder KB and provokes
> KB uses AoO to sunder KA
>> KA uses AoO to sunder KB
>>> KB uses AoO to sunder KA

and so on. Since none of the sunders get resolved, none of the actions progress as normal.

Another way to look at it is if you were playing Magic: The Gathering and both you and your opponent had an infinitely large hand of instant spells and infinite mana. You cast a spell, putting it on the stack. Your opponent responds with a spell, putting it on the stack on top of yours, but you respond by casting another spell which goes on top of theirs. They respond similarly ad nosium until one of you gives up in frustration. Then the effects are resolved in reverse order to how they were played. Same with the sunder attempts. The last person to sunder would complete the roll, then if the sunderee still had a weapon they would roll their sunder attempt, and so on back and forth until all of the actions waiting to happen are cleared and play can continue on as normal.

Except neither player has to give up, so what you have is a program like this:

P=1
k=k+1
While P > 0, repeat previous step.
End

This just loop around, stacking up k to infinity, or until your compiler crashes.

EDIT FOR GREAT JUSTICE:

If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn
What you wrote here is true, except that the bolded section never happens because the act of resolving the AoO triggers another AoO, which in turn triggers another AoO, etc.