Regarding Belkar's expected kicking of the proverbal bucket.

[Wootles]

Ok, this is my first thread on this forum, so please don't desintergrate me straight away. :smalltongue: Since this forum is already drenched in threads that contain a random combination of the words "Belkar" and "death", I suspect it doesn't matter to add another one. ;)

Now I don't know if someone else got the same idea as me, which is actually quite likely since I'm rather slow with thinking up plot twists, but wouldn't it be possible that Belkar gets killed by V?

First of all, V is getting quite grumpy lately. While she (yeah, I can't help calling V female:smallfrown:) still is neutral in my book (although that may be changing within a comic), she's starting to show more and more evil tendencies. Sure, Belkar is evil to, but at least he always knows his place in the Order and secretly has a heart of gold. Ok, probably the sort of gold that was forcefully mined by enslaved baby pixies, but it's still made of gold. V on the other hand, is slowly turning into some hateful being that shoots anything on sight. While V and Belkar never quite liked each other, their conflict was limited to arguments and (sometimes rather violent) pranks. With her newfound power, I can see her resorting into more excessive ways to end their dispute.

Second, the three fiends stated that they may control V for as long as V controls the other three souls. While I don't know what their intentions are, there is an chance that the fiend's actions will slightly change V's relation with the rest of the Order in a more permanent kind of way. :smallwink:

And last but not least: Ok, this one is rather shaky since I don't know how the Giant wrote the whole story. But to me it makes sense if Rich let most of the Oracles predictions will come true all together. V will get her ultimate power and with that she'll blast Belkar so hard that he crashes straight through the bottom of the Abyss. And if I may pull another theory into this thread, why bother getting Durkon killed and raised as an undead by Xykon if V can do it faster? :smalltongue: Of course this point has been disproved since Belkar's prophecy has come true earlier, while his death was predicted much later. But hey, it's still an option. :smallwink:

[David Argall]

Ok, this is my first thread on this forum, so please don't desintergrate me straight away.
Of course not. First comes the bludgeoning, then the backstabbing, and finger-squeeze, followed by the rack, and the cat of nine tails, the dismemberment, the fire... Only then do we get to the disintegration.


wouldn't it be possible that Belkar gets killed by V?
Not really. The most likely theme is that Belkar "turns over" his new leaf, and gets killed by his new "noble" nature.


Belkar secretly has a heart of gold.
Belkar's heart would be made of brass, and is openly shown.


V on the other hand, is slowly turning into some hateful being that shoots anything on sight.
V has had Good motives for all of his actions. Kubota and Qarr were forces of evil that deserved killing.


it makes sense if Rich let most of the Oracles predictions will come true all together.
Most unlikely. Each prediction is tied to its own story. Haley gets her voice back. Belkar gets to kill somebody. Xykon will visit the desert gate next... Durkon gets to go home... Elan's happy ending pretty much has to happen at the end... So each prophecy will come true in a different event, likely no closer than 50 strips from each other.

[[TS] Shadow]

I am in agreement with the OP in some regards. (BTW, I won't disintergrate you. Too quick for my liking. Slowly dropped into a volcano is WAY more fun! ;)) I have had the feeling that V and Belkar were going to fight for a while now, but they have sort of switched places. Belkar has became a better person. True, he's faking it, but I have a feeling that it will become more genuine as time goes on, even if Belkar doesn't want it to. Even if he doesn't, a fake good person is still better than a bad one. V, on the other hand, is becoming more and more dark and violent. Killing Kubota on the ship (ie, attacking someone who could be innocent,) is not a good thing, even if he was evil. All of the stress that V's going through right now isn't helping him either. His downward spiral is still going on, and his deal with the IFCC (and the power that comes with it) might change V in a way that we might not expect. So the once evil Belkar is becoming semi-good, and the once semi-good V is becoming evil. This sort of switch is just leading up to their reunion, which might lead to violence. I wouldn't be surprised if Belkar died saving the party from V.

Random speculation:
When Roy is talking to the deva after he died, he says something to the effect of "if I didn't take Belkar with me, he'd become another recuring villain. With my comparison to V and Belkar above, maybe V is the one who becomes the villian, and not Belkar.

[magic9mushroom]

Let's see.

Roy had an epiphany in Azure City after the trial, and again in the Seven Heavens talking to his father.

Elan had an epiphany with Julio Scoundrel, as well as here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html)

Haley had one when she got her voice back.

Belkar, well, do I really need to say it?

Redcloak got one in the middle of the Azure City battle.

That leaves three main characters with no major epiphanies as of yet. Durkon, V, and Xykon. I honestly doubt Xykon's going to get one, but Durkon needs one, and V is going to get one. Remember Elan's dramatic instincts, and that he said it's for the best. V will come back stronger.

[ericgrau]

I think V is getting his now.

Durkon I'm really curious about. He really lacks personality in the comic, especially lately. It'll be sad if he doesn't get his, and yet I'm not sure how it'll be possible.

[Hectonkhyres]

Durkon I'm really curious about. He really lacks personality in the comic, especially lately. It'll be sad if he doesn't get his, and yet I'm not sure how it'll be possible.
My guess: He gets one five minutes after he has died and he is speaking directly to Thor, his god.

[lord_khaine]

That leaves three main characters with no major epiphanies as of yet. Durkon, V, and Xykon. I honestly doubt Xykon's going to get one, but Durkon needs one, and V is going to get one. Remember Elan's dramatic instincts, and that he said it's for the best. V will come back stronger.

i dont think thats why he said it was for the best that V left, i think its because he could see that as things were, they could no longer work together without it ending up in a big fight.

[Raging Gene Ray]

That leaves three main characters with no major epiphanies as of yet. Durkon, V, and Xykon. I honestly doubt Xykon's going to get one, but Durkon needs one.

That's where I fear you may be wrong. As much as I'd like to see Durkon get some screen time, he's already levelheaded and flawless enough that he may not need an epiphany.

Though "do your duty, even especially if it makes you miserable" could be a flaw...oh, and he might somehow learn that he has the okay to return to Dwarven Lands.

EDIT: Just realized that had nothing to do with the OP...let's see...how to tie it together...

Durkon has an epiphany while talking down V, who has snapped and killed Belkar.

[LuisDantas]

Shadow;5825174']I have had the feeling that V and Belkar were going to fight for a while now, but they have sort of switched places. Belkar has became a better person. True, he's faking it, but I have a feeling that it will become more genuine as time goes on, even if Belkar doesn't want it to. Even if he doesn't, a fake good person is still better than a bad one. V, on the other hand, is becoming more and more dark and violent. Killing Kubota on the ship (ie, attacking someone who could be innocent,) is not a good thing, even if he was evil. All of the stress that V's going through right now isn't helping him either. His downward spiral is still going on, and his deal with the IFCC (and the power that comes with it) might change V in a way that we might not expect. So the once evil Belkar is becoming semi-good, and the once semi-good V is becoming evil. This sort of switch is just leading up to their reunion, which might lead to violence. I wouldn't be surprised if Belkar died saving the party from V.

I get pretty much the opposite vibe. When the chips are down, Belkar is even more despicable faking virtue then he was as honestly evil. And V seems to be realizing how pointless it is to even consider the Fiends' deal.

I expect V to reject the deal and grow from the experience. And I am eager to see Belkar gone for good. He's so insufferable now.

[Tempest Fennac]

Why do you think V is considering the deal to be pointless, Luis? Based on what we know about V, I can't see him/her abandoning their family if they had a chance to save them.

[magic9mushroom]

That's where I fear you may be wrong. As much as I'd like to see Durkon get some screen time, he's already levelheaded and flawless enough that he may not need an epiphany.

Though "do your duty, even especially if it makes you miserable" could be a flaw...oh, and he might somehow learn that he has the okay to return to Dwarven Lands.

EDIT: Just realized that had nothing to do with the OP...let's see...how to tie it together...

Durkon has an epiphany while talking down V, who has snapped and killed Belkar.

Durkon is starting to slip into heartless LN territory again, as we saw, and really lost touch with V (while Elan could still understand). What'll be interesting is if he does slide to LN and lose his cleric powers.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Durkon is starting to slip into heartless LN territory again, as we saw...(while Elan could still understand).

Where? I've never seen Durkon act anything but LG. The reason Elan understood was because he saw V dispose of Kubota and didn't want to draw unwanted attention to V and himself.

[magic9mushroom]

Where? I've never seen Durkon act anything but LG. The reason Elan understood was because he saw V dispose of Kubota and didn't want to draw unwanted attention to V and himself.

Look at it this way:

Elan could have easily told the truth to Hinjo. But he didn't. After some thought, he decided to save V's butt. Why? He realised that she needed to work out her problems by herself.

Durkon just acted as normal. For a cleric with high Wisdom, that's extremely unperceptive. Acting like a brick, even.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Durkon just acted as normal. For a cleric with high Wisdom, that's extremely unperceptive. Acting like a brick, even.

I see your point about Elan's behavior being out of concern for V, but Durkon had been trying to get V to stop obsessing about arcane power and focus on helping the Azurites for some time. To Durkon, V was just continuing to pull more of the same. He even tried to talk V out of leaving. Definitely not LN.

[magic9mushroom]

I see your point about Elan's behavior being out of concern for V, but Durkon had been trying to get V to stop obsessing about arcane power and focus on helping the Azurites for some time. To Durkon, V was just continuing to pull more of the same. He even tried to talk V out of leaving. Definitely not LN.

Oh, sure, all I'm saying is he lacked understanding there, and in general he's been paying more attention to "the way things ought to be" than "what's good for people". That is, more Arcadia-like and less Celestia or Bytopia-like. He's definitely still LG, but emphasis on the Lawful.

[Tempest Fennac]

I always saw Durkon as like that going back to OtOoPCs and the Hilgya incident.

[magic9mushroom]

I always saw Durkon as like that going back to OtOoPCs and the Hilgya incident.

So did I. But he seems a bit worse now.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm not sure if he is or not really. I suppose apparently accepting Elan's explanation was pretty bad, unless he was just covering for V as well for some reason.

[LuisDantas]

Why do you think V is considering the deal to be pointless, Luis? Based on what we know about V, I can't see him/her abandoning their family if they had a chance to save them.

True. But V is quite skeptical about the deal, as well he/she should be.

There are just too many ways for it to backfire. And the fiends all but declared that if V accepts the Heavens will be in jeopardy, bringing the question of how much is it worth to accept the deal to begin with.

Not to mention the matter of the snarl. If V is compromised, that might very well hinder the efforts to protect the gates, and V would therefore lose hir mate and children all the same.

[LuisDantas]

Look at it this way:

Elan could have easily told the truth to Hinjo. But he didn't. After some thought, he decided to save V's butt. Why? He realised that she needed to work out her problems by herself.

Durkon just acted as normal. For a cleric with high Wisdom, that's extremely unperceptive. Acting like a brick, even.

To the best of my knowledge Durkon doesn't even know that Kubota is dead, much less that V slaughtered him.

[hobbes1020]

I'm surprised.

[Kaytara]

While he has less "issues" than the rest of the group, I wouldn't say that Durkon has no glaring flaws.

- He's lawful to a fault. Not just the way he handled Hilgyia, see also his reaction at Roy's death. "He knew this could happen, so I'm happy for him." But allright, I'm perfectly willing to chalk that up to cultural differences.

- Durkon proposed that the whole group abandon Haley and Roy and go on to pursue the Gates as soon as three and a half months after their separation. Note that Haley was left in a city besieged by a huge army and, to the best of their knowledge, it's likely she had been captured and was facing torture and soul-destroying monstrosities at that very moment.
Durkon's attitude - "Continue with the mission, no matter who gets left behind" - again makes sense for a dwarf, but isn't particularly sympathetic here, especially considering...

- His treatment of Vaarsuvius in the early 500ths. They had gotten on rather well up to that point and Vaarsuvius acts in a manner consistent with the mutual trust they seemed to have - V confides in Durkon, revealing his mindset at that moment and explaining why he sees himself as responsible for their separation. What does Durkon do? As soon as seconds later, he exploits that knowledge in order to make an unfounded accusation that Vaarsuvius, of all people, has not been acting logically, simply because the elf had just shown that he was not an emotionless robot. On top of that, at that point Vaarsuvius had not yet displayed the bitchiness, crankiness and other symptoms of obsession we see earlier. He was just a teammate so concerned with the fates of two friends that he was neglecting his health over it. Based on that, the offensive manner in which Durkon phrased his accusation was simply completely uncalled for.

That is not the way a high-wisdom cleric goes about advising and counselling his valued companions.

- I'm somewhat surprised that few seem to have noticed this. Durkon has become grumpier, far more like his pre-meeting-Roy self. Pre-separation Durkon was practically the paragon of well-meaning benevolence. It's hard to find anything mean to come out of his mouth, and he practically NEVER showed any kind of frustration or impatience.
Contrasted with that, his remark to Elan during the orc island arc ("Blast it, lad, have ye gone completely daft, instead o' yer usual mostly daft?") sounds rather harsh.
And of course there's all that indignant, pissed off muttering under his breath at Vaarsuvius during the giant devil fight, not to mention his rather spiteful remark afterwards. (Aye, well, ye got lucky. Tha were a foolish risk.)

To sum it up, I don't think Durkon is quite the paragon of virtue, wisdom and intuitive understanding a cleric is expected to be, so there's room to work in that department. (It's rather ironic that Vaarsuvius is the one who always displayed understanding of relationships and nuances in conversation.)

[Rotipher]

Some of that might be that Durkon had previously let Roy shoulder the task of chewing out their teammates when they screw up, and now speaks aloud what he'd previously kept quiet about. He'd respected Roy's role as leader, and refrained from critiquing their comrades' performance, lest he undermine the fighter's authority. But now, there's no clear "leader" among the others -- V was already withdrawing from their circle, even before vir departure; Elan is too flighty and foolish to be trusted with any such responsibility; Hinjo isn't an OotS member -- so Durkon probably feels that several of the burdens of leadership are his now.

Still, you're right that he's getting grumpier. Roy was his closest friend in the Order, and without him around, Durkon is probably finding that membership in the group is far less satisfying.

[Silverraptor]

So did I. But he seems a bit worse now.

Really? He seems the same to me except that he's more understanding of humans.

Also, I think this thread is a little off topic.

[magic9mushroom]

While he has less "issues" than the rest of the group, I wouldn't say that Durkon has no glaring flaws.

- He's lawful to a fault. Not just the way he handled Hilgyia, see also his reaction at Roy's death. "He knew this could happen, so I'm happy for him." But allright, I'm perfectly willing to chalk that up to cultural differences.

- Durkon proposed that the whole group abandon Haley and Roy and go on to pursue the Gates as soon as three and a half months after their separation. Note that Haley was left in a city besieged by a huge army and, to the best of their knowledge, it's likely she had been captured and was facing torture and soul-destroying monstrosities at that very moment.
Durkon's attitude - "Continue with the mission, no matter who gets left behind" - again makes sense for a dwarf, but isn't particularly sympathetic here, especially considering...

- His treatment of Vaarsuvius in the early 500ths. They had gotten on rather well up to that point and Vaarsuvius acts in a manner consistent with the mutual trust they seemed to have - V confides in Durkon, revealing his mindset at that moment and explaining why he sees himself as responsible for their separation. What does Durkon do? As soon as seconds later, he exploits that knowledge in order to make an unfounded accusation that Vaarsuvius, of all people, has not been acting logically, simply because the elf had just shown that he was not an emotionless robot. On top of that, at that point Vaarsuvius had not yet displayed the bitchiness, crankiness and other symptoms of obsession we see earlier. He was just a teammate so concerned with the fates of two friends that he was neglecting his health over it. Based on that, the offensive manner in which Durkon phrased his accusation was simply completely uncalled for.

That is not the way a high-wisdom cleric goes about advising and counselling his valued companions.

- I'm somewhat surprised that few seem to have noticed this. Durkon has become grumpier, far more like his pre-meeting-Roy self. Pre-separation Durkon was practically the paragon of well-meaning benevolence. It's hard to find anything mean to come out of his mouth, and he practically NEVER showed any kind of frustration or impatience.
Contrasted with that, his remark to Elan during the orc island arc ("Blast it, lad, have ye gone completely daft, instead o' yer usual mostly daft?") sounds rather harsh.
And of course there's all that indignant, pissed off muttering under his breath at Vaarsuvius during the giant devil fight, not to mention his rather spiteful remark afterwards. (Aye, well, ye got lucky. Tha were a foolish risk.)

To sum it up, I don't think Durkon is quite the paragon of virtue, wisdom and intuitive understanding a cleric is expected to be, so there's room to work in that department. (It's rather ironic that Vaarsuvius is the one who always displayed understanding of relationships and nuances in conversation.)

This is what I was trying to get at. Thank you.

[Gamiress]

I think Durkon is just over stressed. They all are. Just because he doesn't get the spotlight doesn't mean he isn't feeling the same pressure as the others. People are bound to get cranky under these circumstances.

[Kish]

Rich said a while ago, back when he posted on these boards regularly, that he's not a fan of the "humans in funny suits" interpretation of the nonhuman races. How much of Durkon's recent harshness is about Roy being away, I don't know...but the "wouldn't everyone be delighted to die fighting a terrible evil lich?" thing was cultural differences all the way.

[Warren Dew]

I'm somewhat surprised that few seem to have noticed this.

"Don't mistake not caring for not knowing."

Actually I do care, but just haven't seen the opportunity to remark on it. I think the explanation is that Durkon is missing Roy, and is feeling annoyed and stressed as a result.

[Kaytara]

"Don't mistake not caring for not knowing."

Actually I do care, but just haven't seen the opportunity to remark on it. I think the explanation is that Durkon is missing Roy, and is feeling annoyed and stressed as a result.

"Seem to have noticed" = "shown that they've noticed", i.e. posted about it, so my phrasing was more or less correct. :) I'm perfectly aware that I didn't take any levels in psionic, so when I say that, naturally I mean that I haven't seen much of it on the boards.

Anyway, I think the problem is exactly the lack of spotlight Durkon gets. Or hells, you don't even need a spotlight for that kind of thing, a throwaway remark would do.
That Durkon is grumpy due to missing Roy is a perfectly plausible explanation, but it's been given zero indication in the comic. For example, it's just as easy to suggest that Durkon is not grumpy due to Roy's absence, but due to the fact that they're still with Hinjo, trying to locate Roy, instead of continuing to the Gates, and he sees Vaarsuvius as to blame for that, since it's mainly Vaarsuvius who theoretically has the means to allow them a change of course. That explanation would work at least equally well, as it fits both the cultural differences and Durkon's stated reasons for his impatience in the comic.

A nice alternate explanation would be that both of those things apply and Durkon is conflicted over trying to do what he sees as his duty while in reality he's just as eager to get Roy back as the rest of them, but suppresses that kind of thinking because of his cultural view of it. I would enjoy that kind of conflict, but I just wish we were actually given some indication as to WHAT is going on in Durkon's head.

Hopefully, we'll find out soon, what with the unresolved Sending spell issue and all.

[Balgus]

I think Durkon is just over stressed. They all are. Just because he doesn't get the spotlight doesn't mean he isn't feeling the same pressure as the others. People are bound to get cranky under these circumstances.It would depend on your upbringing/traiing/position in group. Durkon is a cleric - spiritual healer. He has somewhere to turn (Thor) in times of stress and challenge.

V is a wizard - and has only to study and inner contemplation for peace and answers. This is made worse by V being an elf - which means no sleep - just meditation - more thinking. The more V thinks, the more V blames him/herself for the entire ordeal. Considering Haley was second in command, and is presently missing also, V has taken it upon him/herself to lead the party.

[GoC]

Sure, Belkar is evil to, but at least he always knows his place in the Order and secretly has a heart of gold.
I loled. :smallbiggrin: