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mr.fizzypop
2009-02-26, 03:13 PM
Me and a friend are having an argument over which is better clerics or druids. I personally believe clerics are much superior. I was wondering how many agree with me?

Here's my defense for clerics:

-they get more weapon and armor proficiencies.
-they get more spells per day.
-they get domain abilities and turn/rebuke undead.
-more starting gold.
-more bonus languages.

But he defends druids with:

-more class skills.
-more skill points.
-wild shape(big one).
-more special abilities.

I might have some of this info wrong so please correct me if so.
What do you think?

JeenLeen
2009-02-26, 03:17 PM
The debate depends somewhat on what the party role is. Do you want the fully optimized Cleric or Druid who is a tier 1 character, or do you want a melee, a buffer, a healer, an offensive spell caster?

Positive-energy clerics win the healer role due to spontaneous casting, and thus could be argued to be better in a party, even if druid beats them for overall usefulness in battle.

Inhuman Bot
2009-02-26, 03:18 PM
IMO, most of your argumants aren't that good.

Weapon armor proficency: Well, wildshape fixes that.
Domain abilites: The majority aren't that good, though I agree some are handy.
Turn undead/rebuke undead: It doesn't seem like it works too well.
More starting gold: Starting gold becomes irrelevent quickly, and the difference won't make too much of a diffenence when you get the the point of buying fancy stuff.
Bonus languages: Just cast tounges.

Personally, I like druids more, and for pure power, find them to be better.
The animal companions are also quite powerfull, giving another fighter-type for the party, meaning you may not need one and can have that person play something more interesting for them.

Eloel
2009-02-26, 03:25 PM
Here's my defense for clerics:

-they get more weapon and armor proficiencies.
-they get more spells per day.
-they get domain abilities and turn/rebuke undead.
-more starting gold.
-more bonus languages.

But he defends druids with:

-more class skills.
-more skill points.
-wild shape(big one).
-more special abilities.

Starting gold means nothing beyond level1. Languages are not that big of a deal, since a Druid has more Int than a Cleric possibly has. (a druid can dump strength, a cleric that depends on melee can't)

Turn/Rebuke undead is useless unless you get into DMM cheese.
Weapon and Armor proficiencies are easily off-setted by Wildshape. Natural Armor & Natural Attacks give auto-proficiency.

More spells/day is not really THAT important at high levels, when you rarely run out of spells due to high ability scores.
In case it gets endurance, a cleric will wear out more quickly than a druid, who can, if nothing, go and smack things on head, do it better than the cleric, and do it for 24 hours.

Not counting the animal companion, the Druid simply has no other abilities that really strikes as really important. The animal companion, if nothing, can provide +2 to Druid's hits when Wildshape'd (by flanking), and that is only if it stands there. It can hit/sneak etc.

A Druid's more skill points help, and the ability of him to wildshape into anything he needs is great, since he can sneak better than a rogue OR fight better than a fighter, AND retain all his spells and animal companion.


So yes, Druid is overpowered, and Cleric is no match for him.

mr.fizzypop
2009-02-26, 03:32 PM
The debate depends somewhat on what the party role is. Do you want the fully optimized Cleric or Druid who is a tier 1 character, or do you want a melee, a buffer, a healer, an offensive spell caster?

Positive-energy clerics win the healer role due to spontaneous casting, and thus could be argued to be better in a party, even if druid beats them for overall usefulness in battle.

I forget to mention, I'm talking about 3.5.


IMO, most of your argumants aren't that good.

Weapon armor proficency: Well, wildshape fixes that.
Domain abilites: The majority aren't that good, though I agree some are handy.
Turn undead/rebuke undead: It doesn't seem like it works too well.
More starting gold: Starting gold becomes irrelevent quickly, and the difference won't make too much of a diffenence when you get the the point of buying fancy stuff.
Bonus languages: Just cast tounges.

Personally, I like druids more, and for pure power, find them to be better.
The animal companions are also quite powerfull, giving another fighter-type for the party, meaning you may not need one and can have that person play something more interesting for them.


I agree with the gold, turn undead, and languages but, Druids can't resurrect, and an animal companion's nothing compared to a summoned planar ally. As for wildshape, while wearing heavy armor or magic armor, a cleric has a much higher AC than most animals. The same goes for magic weapons.

PrGo
2009-02-26, 04:12 PM
As for wildshape, while wearing heavy armor or magic armor, a cleric has a much higher AC than most animals. The same goes for magic weapons.

Give the druid a level of fighter for heavy armor proficiency, buy dragonscale full plate, enchant it with "Wild" property. Now he can wildshape into a (effectively) fullplate-wearing dire bear who with Natural Spell feat (that only the dumbest druids don't take) you can cast magic fang or greater magic fang and you have uh... magic fangs :smalltongue:

I personally prefer druid, since he's more powerful without much optimization. And there is a feat somewhere that a druid can take so he can also spontaneously cast healing spells.

Eldariel
2009-02-26, 04:25 PM
Druid wins levels 1-10 (Animal Companion). Cleric wins 11-20 (Wizard spells). Or about. May be a bit later as the Druid gets awesome, unique spells in the midlevels that truly can abuse the CL buffs available to divine characters, but as the Cleric enters the "DMM: Persist Buffs While Casting Death Upon The Hapless Fools"-territory, he starts to pull ahead (barring Shapechange granting spellcasting, of course).

But yea, levels 1-10, the fact that Druid is a full caster with a free Fighter (Animal Companion) along makes him win. Level 6 he gets 12 hours of Wildshape too. Cleric can make himself the Fighter while still casting, sure, but that doesn't double his actions.

Riffington
2009-02-26, 04:49 PM
Turn/Rebuke undead is useless unless you get into DMM cheese.

Lies. (depending on how much undead your campaign involves, of course) Also, only certain uses of DMM are actually cheese.

JellyPooga
2009-02-26, 05:09 PM
-more bonus languages.

But Druids get their very own secret language, for free, that no-one else can speak...to my mind that blows your 'more bonus languages' out of the water! That's probably just me though...:smallwink:

Really though Druids are, generally speaking, better than Clerics. Wild Shape alone is good enough to match most of what a Cleric can achieve pre-Level 11 and Druids have got Animal Companion and their own pretty bad-A spellcasting as well. Level 11+ the scales are more balanced with the Clerics spellcasting starting to really shine, but Druids still come out on top, if only because they've got a helluva lot more options to choose from for any given encounter.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-26, 05:14 PM
Lies. (depending on how much undead your campaign involves, of course) Also, only certain uses of DMM are actually cheese.

I have yet to see someone turn something that is actually a threat to the party past the first few levels, so I don't think it matters even if the campaign is swarming with undead.

Sendal
2009-02-26, 05:30 PM
I have yet to see someone turn something that is actually a threat to the party past the first few levels, so I don't think it matters even if the campaign is swarming with undead.

You have yet to see a radient servant of pelor in action.

This is the way I see it. Ultimatly, the cleric can be made more poweful than a druid. We've all seen the night stick abuse that can happen. On the other hand, a complete noob to the game can break a druid, no optimisation required. Whats wrong with a melee monster, dealing more damage than the fighter with full caster privelages. And a spare fighter as a class feature.

what were they thinking?

Zaq
2009-02-26, 05:31 PM
I would say the biggest factors are how many books you have. Core only? Druid wins hands down. Remember, the Druid gets three ridiculously good class features (animal companion, wild shape, and 9th level spellcasting), any two of which would be a powerful class without the third. The Cleric primarily has 9th level spellcasting, augmented ever-so-slightly with domains, and turn undead. Turn undead is almost useless in a core-only setting... yes, it CAN work, mostly at low levels, but only against very specific enemies and it's very rare for it to actually work against higher-level undead, because undead tend to have so many HD for their CR (and turning, of course, is based on HD). Druid spontaneous casting is better than cleric spontaneous casting, too, especially once you can start summoning, oh say, unicorns, who can fight AND heal for you.

Now, the balance shifts when clerics get feats that can put turn/rebuke to good use. DMM, of course, is the biggest example. (a 17th level Druid can cast Shapechange. A 17th level DMM cleric can persist Shapechange. Granted they have to take the right domain for it, but still.) The two best DMMs to take, naturally, are Persist and Quicken. Both help immensely with action economy, allowing a cleric to cast his spells ahead of time (persist) or as a swift action (quicken), even ones of ridiculously high level. DMM, assuming Nightsticks are allowed, puts the two almost on even footing, possibly barely in favor of the cleric.

Of course, the other Turning-based feats are useful too, just usually not as earth-shatteringly so. If we're being cheesy (and we are; I did mentioned Persist Shapechange, right?), there's Divine Spell Power plus Holy Word (or Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos), or whatever you want.

After that, it becomes an arms race to see who can find and use more little tricks first. The Cleric persists a Greater Consumptive Field; the Druid busts out Venomfire; the Cleric gets Divine Defiance; this goes back and forth until everyone's fed up with how ridiculously overpowered these characters both are.

Overall I'd say the Druid is more powerful until the Cleric gets DMM, then they're roughly even with a slight edge on the Cleric's side. I still don't want to fight either of them if they're willing to pull out all the stops.

woodenbandman
2009-02-26, 05:43 PM
Druids are stronger in Melee, assuming that they have the proper buffs up beforehand. A cleric will kick a druid's ass at spellcasting with the exception of the ease with which a druid gets shapechange (elemental swarm is good too).

Also, Wild armor's ACP doesn't even apply in wildshape, so there's no point in getting proficiency with your armor. Add a few buffs and it's trivially easy to get AC over 50.

Clerics, however, get wish shenanigans far easier than druids, assuming that the Candle of Invocation is banned (though you have to wonder if the candle of invocation is banned, why the hell aren't other wish shenanigans banned?). Anyway, they get that, and they get DMM (which a druid can take a 1 level dip of cleric or Sacred Exorcist and rock out almost as much as a cleric), so basically it's an arms race between who can cast spells better faster, in which case the cleric wins in every case except summoning, because nothing a cleric can pack could trump stuff that druid does with just a few feats. Ashbound + Greenbound (or not) + Augment Summoning (free, via Half-Orc substitution level) = pain for your enemies. Sure, cleric has planar binding, but the druid gets animal companion, which is added to his summoned (and can share buffs with them. Exclusive awesome buffs, like Nature's avatar).

So to answer the question definitively, they both lose to a wizard.

Really, though, I don't know which is better. I like druids more, so I'm going to go with them, though honorable mention goes to Chuck the Ruby Knight Vindicator, the man that God made so fast even He couldn't beat in a footrace.

Myrmex
2009-02-26, 05:54 PM
In core, the druid is better than cleric for filling party roles. It's a tank, has a pet tank, a full caster, can turn into a bunch of useful (or powerful) monsters, and a touch of skillmonkey, due to being able to be old with physical stats dumped.

While the cleric can become a combat monster, he can only do it a few times /day and has to spend actions casting them.

In combat with each other, the cleric wins past level 10, when he gets blasphemy or holy word or what have you. Bead of Karma + Orange Ioun Stone = win.

Outside of core, the druid gets more powerful spells and shapes, but largely just becomes a better combatant. The cleric's largely useless turn undead now becomes DMM:Persist, which ends up being better than the druid's combat buffs, since the cleric has better ones. A persisted shapechange lets the cleric match and beat the druid in terms of becoming a gnarly monster, and cleric buffs are flat better than than druid ones.

If you start looking at prestige classes, though, a druid wins thanks to planar shepherd and a dip in contemplative for turning & DMM cheese. I think. There may be some ludicrous stuff in faerun for clerics.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-26, 07:00 PM
I agree with the gold, turn undead, and languages but, Druids can't resurrect, and an animal companion's nothing compared to a summoned planar ally. As for wildshape, while wearing heavy armor or magic armor, a cleric has a much higher AC than most animals. The same goes for magic weapons.

Well, Clerics are needed in most groups and Druids are not. Cleric Resurrect is extremely important but that doesn't help you much when you are talking about being powerful immediately.

A Fleshraker with Venomfire can be really powerful. Charging gives him:
2 Claw Attacks, 1 Bite, 1 Tail, 1 Rake, and can Trip-Pin the enemy with the same action. Also, the claws, tail, and rake would force a DC 16 Fortitude Save (or 18 with Bear's Endurance) or take 1d6 Dex Damage +5d6 Damage. Even without Venomfire, if the opponent fails enough saves they turn into Tin Man and are screwed. You also turn into one, though you would do less damage and have a lower DC but it still is deadly. Ask the Wizard for a Mage Armor, cast Bite of the Werewolf, and than turn into a Fleshraker for an AC of 30.

Summon Planar Ally is pretty powerful, but it does cost some EXP and Gold. Summon Nature's Ally is almost as powerful but has not cost and doesn't take 10 minutes to cast.
Now, Clerics and Druids are both different concepts. Clerics can get absolutely ridiculous with high CL Holy Words and with DMM they can buff the entire party to high heaven all day without too much of a problem. I consider Clerics as Support while I would consider Druids as Auxiliary (though they are disgusting no matter what role they play.)

Best of luck
-Eddie

Deckmaster
2009-02-26, 07:52 PM
I personally don't like Druids, because I actually don't like classes that are versatile. I like specializing in one thing and being good at it. This is also why I don't like the Wizard; when you can cast virtually any spell, what fun is that? I like situations that I don't readily have an answer for, at least when I'm playing D&D. It makes it better when you think of some half-assed solution and it actually works.

ocato
2009-02-26, 10:23 PM
Forget turning undead, I'd much prefer to rebuke them. Your kitty is nothing compared to my band of elite wights, supported by a skeletal fire giant who is wearing god knows what expensive gear that I stole when my army of elite undead warriors and I stormed the king's armory.

A little DMM and a healthy dose of specialization means that a Cleric can be the Warrior King of an army of the Damned, fighting toe to toe with mace and spell as he is supported by a team of buffed slaves handing out negative levels like free cheese at the mall.

If you're talking raw, unchecked power, the Gods themselves nominate the cleric.

Kaihaku
2009-02-26, 10:30 PM
Miracle.

Cleric wins.

...low to mid levels, I think a Druid probably comes out on top. High level, I'd say that a Cleric wins the day.

Nohwl
2009-02-27, 12:33 AM
at higher levels, i think the cleric wins, but at lower levels the druid probably does.

the cleric gets divine metamagic, and can keep buffs up all day and a cleric has domains that give a few good spells (shapechange being an example), or something useful as a bonus, like extend spell.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-27, 12:50 AM
Druids don't get a lot of the uber spells that Clerics can, but they get a lot of nice abilities that mean that in a normal situation, the cleric could be in big trouble.

Neither compares too favorably to the Sublime Ur-Theurge in spellcasting power.

mikej
2009-02-27, 01:15 AM
Planar Shepherd ?

If that PrC isn't flat out banned then my vote is for the Druid. Another player in my group alway plays the Cleric ( while I usually like the Druid ) soo this same scenario is brought up. I still prefer the Druid but we came to the conclusion that both are pretty much even with one or two minor details that can lead to some advantage. Though the Cleric is more widely accepted in the party for being the medic, while the Druid is another great offensive class.

Eldariel
2009-02-27, 01:29 AM
Druid is an offensive class while still being "the Medic", being able to summon Medics, being able to resurrect and having a pal to increase the damage output, keeping the casualties down. I don't think that particular area goes to the Cleric.

mikej
2009-02-27, 01:52 AM
Druid is an offensive class while still being "the Medic", being able to summon Medics, being able to resurrect and having a pal to increase the damage output, keeping the casualties down. I don't think that particular area goes to the Cleric.

True

Just stating a obversation from my current group since they consider the Cleric to be the only decent medic/healbot class.

Yukitsu
2009-02-27, 01:57 AM
Druids are broken out of the box, but have few tricks to get better (assuming they don't get planar shepard, which they shouldn't) while clerics get a large list of funky tricks they can pull that druids can't, even excluding disciples of mystra (which should be excluded.) A cleric played by a very skilled optimizer can probably get a bit above a druid that is also really well optimized, simply because a druid out of the box is already at full power. A cleric out of the box isn't much to look at.

Ladorak
2009-02-27, 08:29 AM
The problem with turning is that at higher levels monster HD rise much faster then CR, the resut does make the cleric's unique ability useless past level 5(ish). However Clerics get better spells and better armour (Screw weapons, reserve feats make those things redundent to the point of laughing at them)

I think you guys are waaaaay overestimating animal companion. Both make good front line fighters, the Druid only needs one turn to 'buff' tho. Both make good healers, but Clerics are better at that. It's a question of taste I suppose, although I may go and look Druid over again...

TengYt
2009-02-27, 08:33 AM
Druids are broken out of the box. Clerics can outshine them at higher levels, but need a lot of non-core cheese to do so.

Eloel
2009-02-27, 08:49 AM
Druids are broken out of the box. Clerics can outshine them at higher levels, but need a lot of non-core cheese to do so.

That assumes Druids are used as they came out of the box. They can be more broken, ALOT more broken, with Planar Shepherd.

Druid > Cleric if Planar Shepherd is used. Which cheese is used doesn't make much difference.

kalt
2009-02-27, 08:59 AM
It really depends on if Planar Shepard is allowed in the argument. If they are then Druids easily outshine pretty much any class. Without planar shepard I would give druids the edge early, but the cleric will catch up later. The setting also plays a huge roll because if it is undead heavy then obviously a cleric is a bit better, while if you are allowed to pick up greentouched then the disparity is a bit larger early.

A druid is probably the easier class to play as overpowered as long as you pick up natural bond and natural spell +SNA. Really all a druid needs to do is wildshape, summon a few creatures, and cass mass snakes swiftness and that alone will get you through a whole lot.

A cleric on the otherhand developes a bit more slowly, but his ability to turn himself into walking BS through his great self buff list and Divine Metamagic is not to be underestimated. A cleric also makes for one heck of a necromancer if that is the route you want to go. As I pointed out earlier the cleric also can just ruin undeads day and be an amazing battery through RSoP.

So it is really a tough argument to make and level plays a big role as well as player skill with the druid getting a slight edge if the players are new.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-27, 09:30 AM
Druids are broken out of the box. Clerics can outshine them at higher levels, but need a lot of non-core cheese to do so.

Upon which Planar Shepherd comes into play and the Cleric gets shredded again.

I do agree that Miracle is a big one up for the Clerics though at that level.

mostlyharmful
2009-02-27, 12:12 PM
Upon which Planar Shepherd comes into play and the Cleric gets shredded again.

I do agree that Miracle is a big one up for the Clerics though at that level.

Yep. Pity every Druid gets access to it through Shapechanging into a Planetar (provided a small level of cheese is allowed). Once the Druid hits 17 they get full Cleric casting on top of everything else...:smallyuk:

magic9mushroom
2009-02-27, 12:25 PM
Yep. Pity every Druid gets access to it through Shapechanging into a Planetar (provided a small level of cheese is allowed). Once the Druid hits 17 they get full Cleric casting on top of everything else...:smallyuk:

Wait, doesn't that make Wizards even more broken?

Myrmex
2009-02-27, 12:42 PM
A druid that sacrifices one level of druidy effects (wildshape, mainly), and picks up a level of the contemplative prestige class gets turning, too (by getting the Undeath domain as a free domain). And with nightsticks being so cheap, there's no reason he shouldn't have a crapton of them, cause he has little need for equipment.

He doesn't get miracle, but as far as having buffs up all day, he can do it too.

Fawsto
2009-02-27, 12:53 PM
Now, since we are discussing something about the matter.

What should I do when my DM bans DMM? I know, He is being smart I admit, since I'd clearly go into Persist cheese, but is the Cleric able to handle himself well without it?


In comparisson to the Druid, when the Cleric would be able to compete toe to toe with him given he has no access to DMM?


Also, may I suggest that someone around here that enjoys playing Druids or Clerics could list, for a comparisson basis, the spells and, in the case of the druid, animal forms that are relevant to the matter?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-27, 01:00 PM
For a Cleric that can't go DMM, your best bet is a combination of long-duration buffs for the party(GMW, MV, the pacts from SpC) and a single round of buffing in or before combat.

As a Druid, you'll want a Fleshraker Animal companion, and pretty much any large, dangerous animal for Wildshape. Fleshraker or large cat for pouncing, bear or gator for grappling, or rhino or triceratops for charging. The specifics don't really matter, the essence is that you have all new stats, large size, nice special abilities, and get to toss Bite of the Werebear on yourself and your pet in the first round. +16 Str FTW!

mostlyharmful
2009-02-27, 01:10 PM
Wait, doesn't that make Wizards even more broken?

Meh.. They've already been Binding Planetars for two levels, changing into one's nice but if you want the spells for free you don't need to be one yourself

kalt
2009-02-27, 01:29 PM
For Druids you will see the name Fleshraker Dinosaur thrown around a lot.. Fleshrakers can charge, pounce, trip, pin, and poison, all in one round, and have a decent AC. They are out of the MM3 and you can wildshape into them at level 5. With Natural Bond as you 3rd level feat you can snag yourself one of those as well as your animal companion at 4th level and essentially get your level to it for progression. If your DM is dumb enough to allow it, you might as well cast Venomfire (Serpant Kingdoms) and hilarity will commence.

At 7th level - you can grab a magebred ghost tiger, which is a slight upgrade from fleshraker, but is a little bigger as well. I personally stick with the dinosaur. Obviously the pets scale with levels and get better, but it is easy to have a nasty animal companion that can share buffs with you.

For wildshaping as i pointed out earlier a fleshraker is fun early on. You can wildshape into a polar bear at level 8. At level 12 you can go into a dire bear, which has a grapple check of +14. At 18 you can shape into a Dire polar bear, which has a grapple of +23 or for core a t-rex. Again, if your DM is just lenient you can always wildshape into a legendary Ape (MM2), which is medium sized has a Str of 30 and of course has hands that can hold things...

mr.fizzypop
2009-02-27, 04:03 PM
Well me and my friend have reached a consensus:

-Clerics are superior having to do with healing, buffing, or dead and undead.
-Druids are better at skill challenges, anything to do with wildlife, and dealing hideous amounts of damage.

As for combat, we decided they were about equal, because of druids wildshape, and clerics access to miracle and controlling undead.

mostlyharmful
2009-02-27, 05:12 PM
As for combat, we decided they were about equal, because of druids wildshape, and clerics access to miracle and controlling undead.

Again. By the time Cleric gets Miracle Druids get it as well through Shapechange. Below that they stop every damn thing in buffed wildshape with a buffed AC, buffed summons and buffed dominated randoms. Eat my big steam rollering army of Bears-with-frikken-lazers!!!!!! Bears -With-Frikken-Lazers!!!!!!!!!!!

magic9mushroom
2009-02-27, 05:57 PM
Meh.. They've already been Binding Planetars for two levels, changing into one's nice but if you want the spells for free you don't need to be one yourself

Holy crap.

...

That's rigged.

Leon
2009-02-27, 06:38 PM
Me and a friend are having an argument over which is better clerics or druids. I personally believe clerics are much superior.

your having a tiff over a class and you need the assurance of the boards to back you up?
Your well entitled to think that clerics are better, as much as he is entitled to think that Druids are better
Ultimately who wins?

mostlyharmful
2009-02-27, 06:53 PM
Holy crap.

...

That's rigged.

Hey, it's ok...... They've been Binding Efreeti since level 11.... Wish 3/Day.... from level 11.... HAHA AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA Who needs a stinkin candle???!!?!?!!?!?? :smallbiggrin::smallfurious::smallfrown::smalleek: :smallamused:

ericgrau
2009-02-27, 10:26 PM
I have yet to see someone turn something that is actually a threat to the party past the first few levels, so I don't think it matters even if the campaign is swarming with undead.

I saw a thread in another forum about this. Except this time the original poster did something absolutely astounding for internet forums: He posted an actual monster, asked how could I possibly turn this monster, when my unmodified stats from levels are such-and-such giving me a measly X% chance of success. He was specific about his question, instead of: open-ended, vague, pessimistic and forcing the other guy to pick a scenario and complaining about it (and its successors) 100 times just to hold his ground until the other guy gets tired of typing, as is all too common. This was a combination of luck and honesty/naiveness, I think, as it seemed he truly thought there was no way the monster he posted had much chance to be turned.

Within about 5 posts someone took his monster and got easy success on his turning check using some basic core magic items and maybe a feat. Piece of cake, bamn, done. All you have to do is use gear and problem solved. So yeah, turning stays relevant even at higher levels if you simply pick up some reasonably priced turning equipment. It's not hard at all, and this thought on turning is 100% myth. It only comes from players/DM who don't know to get or buy that kind of gear. Some other complaints also stem from people & groups forgetting/not-knowing to hunt through the DMG/MIC/whatever to include magic items in their builds, and then the rumor spreads that it's impossible to handle X with Y just b/c some people somewhere don't know how. And it's hard to squelch the rumors when people continue to speak in broad anecdotal statements about them.

Lupy
2009-02-27, 10:39 PM
Well, since Druid is more broken then roughly 95% of prestiege classes, no one I know plays them. If anyone were to play them, they would grind any non-wizard into the dust with impunity.

As far as fun to play, I've always liked clerics and paladins, and my homebrewed divine bards more than anything else.

chiasaur11
2009-02-27, 11:06 PM
Hey, it's ok...... They've been Binding Efreeti since level 11.... Wish 3/Day.... from level 11.... HAHA AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA Who needs a stinkin candle???!!?!?!!?!?? :smallbiggrin::smallfurious::smallfrown::smalleek: :smallamused:

Kobold Paladins from Toril.

Eldariel
2009-02-28, 01:59 AM
Some other complaints also stem from people & groups forgetting/not-knowing to hunt through the DMG/MIC/whatever to include magic items in their builds, and then the rumor spreads that it's impossible to handle X with Y just b/c some people somewhere don't know how. And it's hard to squelch the rumors when people continue to speak in broad anecdotal statements about them.

The thing about turning is that Undead creatures improve in HD on average way faster than in CR (due to lacking Con-score for HP). Say, Nightcrawler being HD 25 and CR 18 or Nightwalker HD 21 and CR 16 or Winterwight being HD 32 and CR 23 (on SRD (http://www.d20srd.com) under Epic Monsters) or Mummy being HD 8 and CR 5 or Dread Wraith being HD 16 and CR 11 or Hunefer being HD 50 and CR 25 (on SRD (http://www.d20srd.com) under Epic Monsters) and so on.


Something like Devourer is only 12 HD at CR 11 and such creatures are turnable, but by and large, if you're facing UD as "challenging", they'll be 4 CR above you and thus at level 12, you may be facing a Nightwalker at 21 HD or such. Now, it's not impossible to make such turning, but that requires a huge expediture of resources on improving your Turn-check, and you could instead just use some of your Super Effective Against Undead-magic to dust the thing, while Turning it requires a feat and a ton of equipment.

The principal issue with Cleric Turning is that Cleric Magic is hugely efficient against Undead too and thus, you have the choice between spending few slots or a feat and tons of money on dealing with Undead. Also, if you focus on Turning, it means you deny yourself Turning as a resource towards utilizing feats that improve your casting/fighting ability. So it's not so much that Turning can't be made to work, it's that Turning is more trouble than it's worth and generally superior serving other aspects of your character. It also requires you to invest in an auxillary stat, which causes lots of trouble especially on 25 point buy as you can just barely afford the necessities.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-28, 02:11 AM
Hey, it's ok...... They've been Binding Efreeti since level 11.... Wish 3/Day.... from level 11.... HAHA AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA Who needs a stinkin candle???!!?!?!!?!?? :smallbiggrin::smallfurious::smallfrown::smalleek: :smallamused:

People who noticed that in most cases you autofail the Charisma check if the modifier is less than +0.

jcsw
2009-02-28, 02:20 AM
Yep. Pity every Druid gets access to it through Shapechanging into a Planetar (provided a small level of cheese is allowed). Once the Druid hits 17 they get full Cleric casting on top of everything else...:smallyuk:

Planetar's spellcasting neither counts as a (su) nor an (ex), you don't gain it from shapechange. Even if you were to count spellcasting as an (su), you would lose access to your own class' spellcasting.

mostlyharmful
2009-02-28, 02:23 AM
People who noticed that in most cases you autofail the Charisma check if the modifier is less than +0.

Luck stone, Aid Anouther, Circlet of Persuasion, easy service, bribery of target.... there's any number of ways to buff a Cha Check to bind an XYZ.

And this isn't using nasty little optamization tricks which can produce monsters like Pun-Pun, this is just using Core class features as they were intended to be used (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9483527&postcount=5). Seriously. It's a sixth level spell from core which binds a core outsider.

tyckspoon
2009-02-28, 02:25 AM
The thing about turning is that Undead creatures improve in HD on average way faster than in CR (due to lacking Con-score for HP). Say, Nightcrawler being HD 25 and CR 18 or Nightwalker HD 21 and CR 16 or Winterwight being HD 32 and CR 23 (on SRD (http://www.d20srd.com) under Epic Monsters) or Mummy being HD 8 and CR 5 or Dread Wraith being HD 16 and CR 11 or Hunefer being HD 50 and CR 25 (on SRD (http://www.d20srd.com) under Epic Monsters) and so on.


There's a thematic problem, too- 'trash' undead that you would think you *should* be able to turn, like normal skeletons and zombies, are functionally unturnable without optimization because pretty much all of their stats come from inflated HD. Say you're doing something typically heroic like finally delivering a Righteous Smoting unto the Evil Necromancer. For arguments sake, your group is level five and he's level seven or something. He's got a couple of pet Zombie Ogres that are his personal muscle. They're HD 8 at only CR 3.. you're two levels above them, so you should be able to handle them trivially, but your Cleric has to get 19+ on his turning check to have any chance of affecting them. That's not very good odds, and that's before he ever gets around to attempting turning damage. Much better to just fling a Searing Light (and that's the *bad* option. Best would probably be dropping a Bull's Strength or something on your local beatstick/yourself and letting him out to play.)

On the other hand, special undead types that you may consider using as bosses tend to be relatively easy to turn. They usually have HD much closer to their CR and make up the difference with special abilities. Turn Resistance is supposed to cover the gap, but.. it doesn't, really. This has all the typical problems of high-success-rate save-or-die/suck abilities, the biggest being that it's dramatically unsatisfying.

ravenkith
2009-02-28, 03:48 AM
Feat: Initiate of Mystra +
Feat: Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) +
Magic Item (Nightstick * X)
= Cleric Wins.

Fortinbras
2009-02-28, 01:19 PM
what were they thinking?

I personaly do not like Druids but I have to say that in terms of power they are better. That said I think that clerics are better team players. The can fill more roles than Druids can and in a non optimized party that is important. On the other hand a Druid barely even needs a party. That is my expearience anyway but I've only played with a Druid in my party once. In that particular game he was #$%&ing useless but that was probably just a fluke. I think that clerics are better at protecting wizards and sorcerers but agian that is just based on one instance.

mostlyharmful
2009-03-01, 05:39 AM
Planetar's spellcasting neither counts as a (su) nor an (ex), you don't gain it from shapechange. Even if you were to count spellcasting as an (su), you would lose access to your own class' spellcasting.

It's listed as a special attack. The text bloc lists the casting as an inherent feature of the Planetar.... if it isn't a Ex or Su then it's got to be a natural ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities). Which you get. along with your own casting.

Really it's not just shapechange that gives you it in that case, you'd get it under polymorph effects but the Druid doesn't get those so they've got to wait for Shapechange.

Temp.
2009-03-01, 05:51 AM
Planetar's spellcasting neither counts as a (su) nor an (ex), you don't gain it from shapechange. Even if you were to count spellcasting as an (su), you would lose access to your own class' spellcasting.

You missed the part where the PHB2 gave the Core Polymorph chain the assumed form's spellcasting:


PHB2 said spells from the Polymorph subschool grant "all statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form" to their subjects and remove all the interesting abilities the subjects originally had. It mentions a couple times just replacing all of your own abilities with all of the abilities of the assumed form.
D&D runs off the principle that specific rulings override general rulings.
Alter Self explicitly states that the subject retains existing spellcasting abilities.
The only quality of the assumed form that Alter Self does not say its subject doesn't gain is Spellcasting (it isn't Supernatural, it isn't Spell-like, it isn't Extraordinary).
Polymorph, Draconic Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange are all based on Alter Self's description
This is why the Mystic Theurge cries himself to sleep at night.



[edit:] Damn that window was open for a while. MH's way works too.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-01, 06:05 AM
Luck stone, Aid Anouther, Circlet of Persuasion, easy service, bribery of target.... there's any number of ways to buff a Cha Check to bind an XYZ.

And this isn't using nasty little optamization tricks which can produce monsters like Pun-Pun, this is just using Core class features as they were intended to be used (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9483527&postcount=5). Seriously. It's a sixth level spell from core which binds a core outsider.

The first three don't count. If the modifier from just bribery and the difficulty is +0 or less, check autofails.

Spellcasting is obviously not natural or (Ex), and it isn't (Su) or (Sp) either. It isn't a special ability at all. Hence you don't get it from Shapechange. Practical, sane optimisation here people, not taking multiple statements out of context and twisting unintended meanings.

mostlyharmful
2009-03-01, 06:13 AM
The first three don't count. If the modifier from just bribery and the difficulty is +0 or less, check autofails.

Spellcasting is obviously not natural or (Ex), and it isn't (Su) or (Sp) either. It isn't a special ability at all. Hence you don't get it from Shapechange. Practical, sane optimisation here people, not taking multiple statements out of context and twisting unintended meanings.

So use Moment of Prescience.

Moment of practical, sane houseruling maybe, I certainly call it that way in my games but it's not multiple statements, it's not out of context, it isn't twisting anything and as far as RAW goes it doesn't seem to be unintended. Either the Binding line nor the Polymorph line.. they're core uses of core spells to do exactly what they were intended to. WotC just doesn't playtest right is all.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-01, 06:38 AM
So use Moment of Prescience.

Moment of practical, sane houseruling maybe, I certainly call it that way in my games but it's not multiple statements, it's not out of context, it isn't twisting anything and as far as RAW goes it doesn't seem to be unintended. Either the Binding line nor the Polymorph line.. they're core uses of core spells to do exactly what they were intended to. WotC just doesn't playtest right is all.

What you are twisting is the statement that "Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."

That is only intended to apply to Special Abilities (it's in the Special Abilities section), and nowhere does it say that a Planetar's spellcasting is a Special Ability - rather, all signs point the other way, since PC spellcasting isn't a Special Ability. Special Attack =/= Special Ability.

That's for Polymorph line. And really, giving all high-level Wizards the ability to cast all cleric spells at the same time Clerics get the ability? That's obviously not RAI.

Planar Binding line: Since the amount of stuff you have to pay is quite large, getting high-level spells is reasonable, since after all, you could just pay for them. Infinite Wish loop is cheese, pure and simple.

mostlyharmful
2009-03-01, 11:59 AM
What you are twisting is the statement that "Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like".

How is it twisting it? They're flat out written to be inherent to a planetar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar).


That is only intended to apply to Special Abilities (it's in the Special Abilities section), and nowhere does it say that a Planetar's spellcasting is a Special Ability - rather, all signs point the other way, since PC spellcasting isn't a Special Ability.

Intended and does are two different things, esspecially when WotC does the playtesting. Also this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities) disagrees with you. If they have the ability it must be Ex, Su, Sp, or Natural. This gets messy once you get divine or psionic stuff but the Planetar hasn't so we can fit their casting into one of the above. It isn't listed as Ex, Su or Sp so it defaults to Natural. Which you get. Since it doesn't say it is a Special ability it must be a Natural one of Planetars.


And really, giving all high-level Wizards the ability to cast all cleric spells at the same time Clerics get the ability? That's obviously not RAI.

See earlier comment on WotC playtest standerd.




Planar Binding line: Since the amount of stuff you have to pay is quite large, getting high-level spells is reasonable, since after all, you could just pay for them. Infinite Wish loop is cheese, pure and simple.

What stuff? The stuff I mentioned makes it more likely that you'll succeed first time with the negotiation, you don't need it and a casting of Eagles Splender on top of a non-negative Cha score should be all you really need. Getting high-level spells cast for you gets expensive fast, at level 11 you can't reasonably afford to have a pet caster able and willing to help you when you want. that's exactly what the Planer Binding line is, which is exactly what it seems to have been designed for.

Also Binding a Noble Djinni or an Efreeti isn't infinite Wish loop, it's slow and the best results are negotiated with a powerful outsider. It's just that if you provide them with stuff they want and use their borrowed power responsibly then there shouldn't be a problem, Wishing for three rings of three wishes and going from there is obviously going to get hit with falling rocks, using bound Genies to make your bachelor pad really swanky isn't going to break the game and shouldn't be auto-banned so long as you trust your player to not act like a male-chicken, specially if you add in the houserule that magic items wished for have the same gp limit as non-magical.


Finally, I'd like to point out the first post I added to this thread which said all this was provided a small level of cheese was allowed. You want to change RAW into something closer to your idea of RAI by a very reasonable houseruling go right ahead.