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View Full Version : (3.5) whirlwind/knockdown/imp trip questions



Ianuagonde
2009-02-27, 03:26 PM
I was looking for a new weapon for my level 11 Duskblade tripper, and I noticed a weapon enchantment in the MIC that copies Whirlwind Attack. All sorts of questions popped up in my head about the interaction with channeling and tripping. In my head, it kinda makes sense, but it's more based on gut feeling than on anything solid. Thus I turn to the collective wisdom of the forum. I would like to know if you agree or disagree with the following points, and more importantly, why.

1) You can channel spells with a whirlwind attack.
2) With the Knock-Down feat from the SRD and Whirlwind Attack, you can try to trip everyone within range of your weapon.
2b) All these trip attempts happen at the same time (important for 2c)
2c) If you succesfully trip multiple opponents, Improved Trip gives you a free attack against each of these.

I'm not sure about how it all connects. If you try to trip 2 opponents, and you succeed with one and get tripped by the other, does Improved Trip give you a free attack? Do you get a -4 penalty on that attack for being prone?

3) If this all works as I think it does, would you consider this overpowered in a group where a Fighter/Dwarven Defender is a valued party member, and where the Druid has used her Natural Spell feat twice in the last 5 levels?

Ganurath
2009-02-27, 03:32 PM
If you have the Knock-Down feat from SRD, then you have divine rank and can probably do something far more impressive.

snoopy13a
2009-02-27, 03:35 PM
My interpretation would be that if you get tripped, you'd still get free attacks (assuming you succeeded in tripping at least one person) but you'd have to do any free attacks prone.

Dyllan
2009-02-27, 03:36 PM
Per the SRD:
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Therefore, I would say you don't get the free attacks against everyone you successfully trip.

Still, it's not a bad combo. Throw in combat reflexes so you get AoO on each of them as they get up.

Edit: Also, until you hit Duskblade 13, you can't channel as part of a full attack action. Once you do hit Duskblade 13, then you could channel as part of a Whirlwind attack.

Douglas
2009-02-27, 03:37 PM
The location of Knock-Down in the Divine section of the SRD means nothing more nor less than that it was printed in Deities and Demigods. You do not actually have to be a god to take the feat.

I would have to check the exact wording of both the item and Duskblade channeling to answer conclusively for all of these, but this clause in Whirlwind Attack might be a problem: "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

TK-Squared
2009-02-27, 03:39 PM
If you have the Knock-Down feat from SRD, then you have divine rank and can probably do something far more impressive.

Kock-down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) does not require divine ranks. Just like Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) does not require psionics, nor does Knockback require you actually be a Race of Stone. The books that something is printed in does not necessarily restrict the feat.

Edit: I believe the enchantment is called Whirling.

Animefunkmaster
2009-02-27, 03:50 PM
1) You can channel spells with a whirlwind attack.
2) With the Knock-Down feat from the SRD and Whirlwind Attack, you can try to trip everyone within range of your weapon.
2b) All these trip attempts happen at the same time (important for 2c)
2c) If you succesfully trip multiple opponents, Improved Trip gives you a free attack against each of these.


3) If this all works as I think it does, would you consider this overpowered in a group where a Fighter/Dwarven Defender is a valued party member, and where the Druid has used her Natural Spell feat twice in the last 5 levels?

1) Channel is specifically a standard action until Lv 13, where you can channel as part of a full round that specifically hits every target you hit in that round.
2) Knock Down is a 3.0 Feat that didn't get updated, meaning it is fair game in 3.5. The SRD version imo is a typo (that slipped through editing) as it is for those with a divine rank. With Whirlwind attack this would allow you to knock down every opponent you hit (as per normal knockdown rules)
2b)They happen in the order you hit people. Example you are surrounded by person A, B, and C. You use whirlwind attack to hit them all, your first target is A you hit him and attempt to trip but fail and A succeeds at tripping you. That attack ends and you continue with the whirlwind attack (albeit on your butt with penalties for being prone) and chose B you hit him and fail at another trip, the opponent can't trip you as you are already prone. So you swing for C and hit and he trips.
2c) Yes you can:
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt.

3)Maybe, depends on the types of enemies you go up against. Whirlwind attack is generally not a good feat as strategically you won't be surrounded often to make optimal use of it.

Edit: as to the divine rank discussion:

Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.
To be a deity you must have a divine rank. The difference between this and and standstill is that there is no blanket qualifier over all the feats in that section.

Psionic feats are available only to characters and creatures with the ability to manifest powers.
Psionic feats are a type of feat.

Dyllan
2009-02-27, 03:55 PM
I'd say that improved trip text trumps the no extra attacks text of Whirlwind attack, as trip treats it as if you hadn't used Whirlwind attack. So, I stand corrected (or am I prone now?).

Douglas
2009-02-27, 04:00 PM
Edit: as to the divine rank discussion:

To be a deity you must have a divine rank. The difference between this and and standstill is that there is no blanket qualifier over all the feats in that section.
Given no other context, that could reasonably be interpreted to mean that only deities can take those feats. However, it should also be noted that every single one of the feats in that section is also printed verbatim in another splatbook in a section clearly intended for normal PCs. Also, the full text in Deities and Demigods is somewhat longer and may clarify the issue better, though I can't remember exactly what it says right now.

WotC wanted to use several splatbook feats for their deity builds but wanted Deities and Demigods to be independent of other splatbooks. Thus, they made a list of every splatbook feat they wanted to use and reprinted each of them unaltered. The reprinting did not change any of the requirements for taking the feats.

Person_Man
2009-02-27, 04:10 PM
1) You can channel spells with a whirlwind attack.

Until 13th level, Channel Spell is a Standard Action. So at first, no.

At 13th level, you can Channel Spell as part of a Full Attack Action. Whirlwind Attack is a full attack action. So at 13th level, you can Channel Spell with Whirlwind Attack.

2) With the Knock-Down feat from the SRD and Whirlwind Attack, you can try to trip everyone within range of your weapon.

No. "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities." A Trip attack is still an attack. So you forfeit it when you use Whirlwind Attack.


2c) If you succesfully trip multiple opponents, Improved Trip gives you a free attack against each of these.

No. Knock-Down does not work that way. Read the errata (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) for Knock-Down from Sword and Fist.

If you have Improved Trip, then this is what happens:

1) You make a Trip attempt.
2) If you succeed, your enemy is knocked Prone, and you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadnít used your attack for the trip attempt.

If you have Knock-Down, then this is what happens:

1) You make an attack.
2) If the attack deals 10+ points of damage, you get a free Trip attempt.

Knock-Down just changes the order of events. It's more efficient then Improved Trip, in that you generally have a higher chance of failure with a Trip attempt then you do with a normal melee attack.

Animefunkmaster
2009-02-27, 05:12 PM
Very good catch on the sword and fist errata. Also, I believe knockdown can be used by it's printing in sword and fist, just pointing out the weak argument of it's in the srd.



2) With the Knock-Down feat from the SRD and Whirlwind Attack, you can try to trip everyone within range of your weapon.[/B]

No. "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities." A Trip attack is still an attack. So you forfeit it when you use Whirlwind Attack.

A Trip attempt is not a Extra attack granted by other feats, spells, or abilities it is a special attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip).


When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

Since you can use a trip attempt as a melee attack action, there is no limitations to making trip attempts during a whirlwind attack. I see what your getting at though, it does seem to imply the extra attack action (trip attempt) granted by Knock-Down is snuffed out by Whirlwind Attacks "Extra Attack granted by a feat." However, Improved trip seems to trump Whirlwind attack in this regard.

So it appears that whirlwind attack can't be used with knock down but rather with normal trip attempts and improved trip.

Edit: Keep in mind, I am just stating the obvious, which has already been stated =P (Compelled to post heh).

Blackfang108
2009-02-27, 05:18 PM
Very good catch on the sword and fist errata. Also, I believe knockdown can be used by it's printing in sword and fist, just pointing out the weak argument of it's in the srd.



A Trip attempt is not a Extra attack granted by other feats, spells, or abilities it is a special attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip).



Since you can use a trip attempt as a melee attack action, there is no limitations to making trip attempts during a whirlwind attack. I see what your getting at though, it does seem to imply the extra attack action (trip attempt) granted by Knock-Down is snuffed out by Whirlwind Attacks "Extra Attack granted by a feat." However, Improved trip seems to trump Whirlwind attack in this regard.

So it appears that whirlwind attack can't be used with knock down but rather with normal trip attempts and improved trip.

Edit: Keep in mind, I am just stating the obvious, which has already been stated =P (Compelled to post heh).

Of course, if you're Wielding a Halberd, you get a free trip attempt against any creature you hit with an attack.

Saves a feat, and bypasses WWattacks clause, as it's provided by the weapon, not by a feat, spell, or ability.

Keld Denar
2009-02-27, 05:44 PM
Looking at Whirling from the MIC, it takes a full round action to activate. It also contains the clause "This property otherwise functions like the Whirlwind Attack feat." Thus you couldn't combine it with the 3rd level Duskblade channeling because that requires a Standard action. Also, since you are "activating a magic item" (its specified as Type:Mental) which gives you a bunch of attacks instead of actually making a full attack using the actual WW Attack feat, I could even see it ruled that this doesn't even work on a Duskblade's 13th level full attack channel. I'd allow it, but just sayin for rules clarity.

And you COULD make trip attempts as part of a WW Attack, since you are making attack actions. Making a touch attack to initiate a Trip is just a special attack action (like Sunder and Disarm). You would NOT get your followup attack on a successful trip because of the wording in WW Attack, just like you wouldn't get your followup attacks from Cleave or similar feats.

You would get the trips that follow up doing more than 10 damage in a round with Knockdown though. Since the opposed trip roll you make to trip an opponent is not an extra attack, but mearly the resolution of beginning the attack, you would be able to trip all targets around you with Knockdown while making a WW Attack.

And as Person Man noted, Sword and Fist (3.0) was errata'd to disallow followup attacks after a sucessful knockdown. While this errata technically didn't make it into the 3.5 SRD, the fact that it was errated in the first place is declaration of the author's intent and should be treated as RAW.

Darrin
2009-02-28, 12:18 AM
Very good catch on the sword and fist errata. Also, I believe knockdown can be used by it's printing in sword and fist, just pointing out the weak argument of it's in the srd.


Actually, that's not errata, thats an FAQ that came out after Sword & Fist was printed. It's not clear if whoever answered that question really understood what was going on with trip attacks.

When Knock-Down was reprinted in Deities & Demigods, they either weren't aware of the FAQ/errata or didn't think it was important enough to change the wording of the feat. So there's an argument that the version printed in the Divine section of the SRD supercedes whatever was in Sword & Fist, and thus the FAQ/errata no longer applies.

So... make of that what you will. I like to think you *can* attack + trip + attack, but then, most sane people think I'm an idiot and play with the FAQ/errata still in effect.

Eldariel
2009-02-28, 01:37 AM
Knock-Down should allow an attack after successful Trip. It's fairly elementary really; otherwise you should just Trip people instead. See:

Knock-Down:
-Attack opponent's full AC
-If you score a hit and deal 10 damage (should be trivial; you're a Fighter, Power Attack for 2), you get a trip check
-Try to trip the opponent

vs.

Improved Trip: (which is a prerequisite)
-Attack opponent's touch AC
-Try to trip the opponent
-If successful, attack opponent's AC - 4


The latter just seems much better. I mean yea, you got to win the Trip-check to get your attack, but the two attacks you do are vs. Touch and opponent's AC-4 respectively. The other way around, you need to succeed your attack to even try the Trip. So yea, to keep Knock-Down from being overshadowed by its prerequisites, it should allow an attack after the Trip and indeed, the wording allows that (it states "you may make a free trip attack").

Keld Denar
2009-02-28, 01:37 AM
No...it wasn't FAQ, which is just the Sage. It was actual errata, a change made by the author of the book. The fact that it wasn't changed when it was reprinted just means that the editor is an idiot, but the intent (yea, you can argue RAI when you know the authors intent via the errata) is that you don't get the followup attack on a Knockdown. To rule it as anything else is to ignore the wishes of the author.

EDIT:
Eldariel, its more of a risk to not have Knockdown, especially when you are doing significant damage. Since there is so much variability on the opposed roll (due to the fact that not a lot of things influence it, so the d20 roll plays a major part of the check), your odds of losing the opposed roll are pretty good. Yea, it might seem like more of an advantage to trip first, then followup attack, but in reality, you should be hitting (and hard) on the attack, touch or not, especially on your first iterative. That means you have a high chance of getting your free trip anyway.

By tripping first, you are effectively giving your opponent about 40-50% miss chance, since they could roll well and you could roll poorly and thus negate your entire attack. Its more of a risk/reward thing that way. You pay an extra feat for less risk on your damage.

Deepblue706
2009-02-28, 02:57 PM
Kock-down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) does not require divine ranks.

Pardon?

Anyway, I think Keld Denar hit all the points I would have said myself.

Ianuagonde
2009-02-28, 05:32 PM
Thanks everyone for clearing this up! I don't have much experience with issues this complex, but you've all made a wonderful case.

Special thanks to Keld for mentioning the activation of magic items, I hadn't noticed that myself. It could become a problem, but it will be an easy one :smallsmile:.

Keld Denar
2009-02-28, 06:06 PM
Yea, I'm really unclear about what I think with the activation of Whirling in conjunction with a full attack channel. Technically, they are 2 seperate type of actions (just like you can't use Spring Attack as part of a Charge).

Then again, it would HARDLY be overpowered by the time you hit level 13. Honestly, if you are triggering Whirling that often, you probably have bigger problems and need to seriously consider your thoughts on tactical movement. If you are eating more than 3 full attacks in a round at level 13, you are either a god or dead. Either isn't very condusive to continued play.