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J.Gellert
2009-02-27, 04:16 PM
Inspired by this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99903).

I am interested in ways to challenge a battle-worthy group of PCs. I only have 3 players to deal with and even though they are "missing 1" from the normal, I consistently find myself throwing them challenges 4, 5, or more levels above them and they wade through without breaking a sweat. Especially the fighter (really, who said 3.5 fighters are weak? :smalltongue:)

I am curious primarily on a theoretical level, so the exact stats of my players are irrelevant. How do you challenge such a strong group? Hostage situations where time and approach are more important than surviving the actual fight is a good idea, but it's only a start. Politics and intrigue is another idea, but it's too vague. How do you go about making an interesting backstabbing adventure?

Have you tried this kind of approach? Do you have examples of what you did to challenge the players outside of an Initiative loop?

Eldariel
2009-02-27, 04:26 PM
Eh, I'd just like to ask regarding your party:
-How much over WPL guidelines are they?
-Are you sure you're playing the monsters intelligently and in appropriate terrains?

Because both of those can contribute hugely to the party going bonkers. #1 just happens pretty easily if you aren't careful; indeed, there's nothing wrong with it except you have to account for it while designing monsters. As for #2, it may seem "easiest" to just throw a flat terrain and opponent in sight range, but fact is that the Dragon is probably going to engage them much farther away and many monster types will try ambushes and intelligent monsters will go for the squishy support first, after which the warrior falls alone.

Terrain, tactics, surprise and so on greatly contribute to the difficulty of the seemingly same creature. So yea, make sure those two things are about on par if they seem to be beating encounters way above their supposed ability. Also, make sure you're understanding what their abilities do correctly.


Anyways, as far as challenging them goes, a well-played spellcaster can always provide just the right degree of challenge. Illusions, contingent spell-effects, Symbol-traps and the like in particular allow engaging the party without actually being there to do anything.

And yes, time limits are rather standard in my campaign. After all, that evil necromancer trying to conquer the world isn't going to wait on casting his world's end spell a second longer than he has to, so you better make it in time. They're a great way to stop stupidity. Indeed, I find campaigns without time limits to be rather stupid; having infinite time to do anything means you pretty much can't fail.


Politics work of course, as does a "source"-type opponent who uses different Binding-abilites to select death squad specifically to stop the party before they reach him; picks the monsters just to exploit the characters' weaknesses and tosses them in with tactics to make each monster exploit his chosen character's weakest points.

Saintjebus
2009-02-27, 04:44 PM
I have gotten into this same situation before(my own fault-I give insane stat arrays) but I have found that giving a lurker type encounter is fun sometimes. You can't do it too much, or everyone just gets frustrated, but every so often something that they can't see or hear but is just hitting them over and over again can be very challenging.
This example is 4e, but maybe you can adapt it.

I used a wraith(50% miss chance) with a mind control ability. Basically, whenever the wraith hits, the person he hit takes up to a full movement and attacks the closest party member. Also, wraith has phasing, so tactics were: phase up through floor, attack fighter, fighter attacks party, next turn phase through floor.

Basically, the fighter crit ed the cleric. Ensue laughter, and angst from the cleric.

Keld Denar
2009-02-27, 05:00 PM
Are your encounters mostly melee on melee? Thats generally rather easy, as a well built charging fighter can usually kill anything he can charge. Try throwing a couple of well made casters at the party.

More info about your party would help.

One encounter I've experienced that was rough involved a mad scientist type wizard. The wizard was sufficiently buffed to be a not-so-easy to take down opponent. He also had a couple of hulking meat shields between him and the party. The meatshields all had the Spellwarped template (wizard boy was experimenting on them). The wizard opened in standard fasion with a Evards Black Tentacles on the party, then did something curious. He cast a voluntarily lowered caster level Featherfall on all of his mooks. The Featherfall checked the SR on the Spellwarped mooks and probably failed, thus buffing the mooks because of the text in the Spellwarped template. Every round, the wizard would cast a spell, then Featherfall the mooks, further buffing them with +str, +con, temp hp, and other effects. Sure, the wizard couldn't cast any quickened spells because Featherfall was eating his swift actions.

If your fighter is making quick work of things, hit him with a couple of debuffs every once in a while. Even at high levels, an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement to the face will probably knock his damage completely out by denying him the ability to use his Power Attack feat (and all feats chained to it). Don't do this every fight, but it is a pretty effective tactic for bad guys to use, especially if they know he's a big strong PAing fighter.

Tadanori Oyama
2009-02-27, 05:16 PM
Make stuff up. Lie. Cheat.

Outside of combat I like to use sandbox cities to overwhelm them. I give them a problem they have to solve and let them run free, making up the solution as I go and occationally throwing obsticales in their path.

#1 solution for counting well versed ruled characters is to drop the books off the table and use your own creatures/challenges.

Advocate
2009-02-27, 05:34 PM
Stick to real challenges that actually exist. First I would need to know the nature and capabilities of the PCs, and the sorts of enemies they fight.

Because 'being 4 or 5 levels higher' may very well mean nothing at all.

Take for example the http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roper.htm

As you can see, this is a very weak CR 12 creature. It's also very poorly written, but that's another topic. The only thing it really has going for it is its Strength damage, which only has a DC of 18... very low at the level, even for say... a Wizard, who easily has +14 Fortitude save at this point, and is the one most likely to 0 out from 2d8. Now if it works, and lowers you to Strength 0 you can't do anything. Unless someone helps you recover the Strength damage that is, which is not hard at all at the level. Technically it can kill you if it Strength 0s you, but seeing as it only does 13 average damage per attack, with very low accuracy for the level the party is most likely going to plow through its 85 HP and AC 24 long before it even drags the Strength 0 guy within melee range, much less kills him.

And if it doesn't do that, it's just stuck doing damage that would have been appropriate around level 3, with attack bonuses a level or two higher. Total joke monster. Expect it to be slaughtered by PCs of much lower level, despite its alleged CR 12 status. The only way it will give the PCs any issues whatsoever is if they fall into the Sunder trap, waste an action breaking a strand, only to have it reform as a free action, grab them again, and reapply the Strength damage, thereby bringing the PC closer to Strength 0.

Now apply advancement rules to it, bringing it up to max HD. It's now allegedly a CR 18 (closer to 19). Its stats are looking a lot better, but it still only has that one trick going for it, with its only fallback being a very low (but higher) damage bite. Expect it to be slaughtered by PCs of much lower level as well.

Now, this is just one example, but there are plenty of other 'Ropers' in the MM.

BRC
2009-02-27, 05:55 PM
Don't challenge the character, challenge the player. In a war of who can best manipulate the numbers between players and the DM, the players will probably win provided the DM sticks within the rules. After all, they have more time, they only need to optomize one character, in order to match them, the DM needs to optimize many more. So instead, change up the game. If youve learned that they blow through hobgoblins and ogres like wet paper, give those hobgoblins a cliff to shoot down from, with some rocks to hide behind with those ogres closing in fast. Make the PC's weigh their options, "If we focus on the Ogres, the archers will start picking us off. If we focus on the archers, those Ogres will get to charge and start in with the smackdowns. If we split our attention, we have can make the archers keep their heads down and stall the ogres, but it will take us longer to defeat either".
Or put them up against an unovercomeable obstacle they they don't need to kill. In my campaign I had "The Poet", an undead rogue that, between combining Hide in plain sight and spring attack, his template-granted damage reduction, his massive hide check, and his hefty sneak attack, the PC's had no chance against. I explcitially told them so when he first showed up. However, because he was sneaking, he moved slowely. So fights with the Poet were a rush to hack through mooks before the poet caught up with them and started stabbing people.

The trick is to get them out of their comfort zone without completally blindsiding them. If you take a party built for combat and put them into a social encounter. of course they will fail. But put them in combat, and they barely blink. So instead, you must make them think, and work for it. Also, the rules are Guidelines, so they don't give you a CR for a 15th level vampire fighter who is fought in a room with clearly defined pools of sunlight the PC's can try to get him into, allowing them to beat a seemingly unbeatable encounter, but it dosn't mean you can't do it.

J.Gellert
2009-02-27, 06:17 PM
I didn't post the party deliberately. I don't have a trouble coming up with interesting fights, it's the "non-combat" encounters I am looking to create.

What can a lame level 1 commoner do that will make anyone, regardless of level, go "Oh, damn!" ? The Joker didn't threaten Batman in The Dark Knight by being a challenge of equal or higher Challenge Rating, but by doing unexpected things that put other people at risk. It's stuff like that I am interested in...

Tsotha-lanti
2009-02-27, 06:38 PM
I didn't post the party deliberately. I don't have a trouble coming up with interesting fights, it's the "non-combat" encounters I am looking to create.

What can a lame level 1 commoner do that will make anyone, regardless of level, go "Oh, damn!" ? The Joker didn't threaten Batman in The Dark Knight by being a challenge of equal or higher Challenge Rating, but by doing unexpected things that put other people at risk. It's stuff like that I am interested in...

So you're actually asking "How do I run an interesting game that doesn't revolve around combat?" It's got nothing to do with whether the PCs are tough - in fact, totally non-combat-capable PCs can be fun in such games.

Tie the PCs (and the players) to the world somehow. This will probably require a few adventures of "mundane" stuff (which can, of course, be killing dragons in most D&D settings) that establishes the society or societies they belong to.

Encourage direct involvement and player-set goals -where necessary, discuss the PC with the player to help them set a goal for the character.

Then start fleshing out the stuff they run into when they follow their goals. Use open-ended challenges with no "right" answer (but try to think of at least 3-5 ways the PCs could solve the situation; just don't limit them to these ways, and let any inventive, sensible, and appropriate solution work as it should). Use situations that cannot be resolved with force, mostly because of the society everyone (including the enemy) belongs - only use overwhelmingly powerful enemies who cannot be attacked directly on rare occasions.

If the characters are D&D-style powerful, come up with really huge problems with no set answer or solution, and let them work on a multi-step solution to it. ("The sun is dying! How are you going to solve this!?")

Work on backgrounds, NPCs, and locations a lot - you need to have a lot of this stuff ready (including "loose" examples of each, ready to be pulled out and used anywhere when the PCs do the unexpected and you find yourself needing something fast).

And use "loose threads" and "consequences." In the course of any open/sandbox campaign, tons of things happen that don't really get immediate resolution, and bringing them into the game again later is a good way to keep the players feeling involved. It rocks when they go, "We know this dude! He's the Great Hooble from Frooblefrox! We hate that guy!" Don't do it with every single one, though; that gets predictable and strains plausibility. But make sure that the PCs' history is part of play and feels real. The things they do can have long-reaching consequences.

Riffington
2009-02-27, 06:40 PM
I just want to point one small thing out: look at football games. Look at the Harvard-Yale football game, or look at Penn State vs Ohio State. The players at the Harvard-Yale game may be smarter, but they don't seem to use better tactics.