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View Full Version : (3.5) Super Cheese Question: Diplomacy



Zergrusheddie
2009-02-27, 04:21 PM
I was looking over the Diplomacy chart and saying something fascinating; if you get high enough on your checks you can cause anyone to become a Fanatic, who is willing to charge in front of a charging dragon to save your life. Imagine going into a town and instantly turning that town into your town. Sounds like it could be fun but this would probably just be theoretical.

The highest you would need to get is a 150 Diplomacy check in order make someone who is Hostile into a Fanatic. Aside from the "Nanobot" trick, what are some other ways of making a DC 150 possible?

Best of luck
-Eddie

TK-Squared
2009-02-27, 04:26 PM
Be Fred (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-452425) and use diplomacy twice in a row.

Hostile to Helpful is 50.
Helpful to Fanatic is 50.

Fred can make that easily.

Zherog
2009-02-27, 04:30 PM
Fred stops at +94 (unless getting higher is buried deeper in the thread and I missed it). Use this to get to 155 (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-371519).

TK-Squared
2009-02-27, 04:31 PM
That's why you take two turns to diplomance. It's not like they're going to attack you in that second turn.

Zherog
2009-02-27, 04:48 PM
Of course, a DM would be justified in not allowing a second check.


Retry: Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly committed to his position, and a retry is futile.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-27, 05:08 PM
+150 at level 20 is nice but is there a way to make it accessible at a lower level? Fred is good if you want to stop all combat, however I think turning a town of Indifferent/Unfriendly people into a bunch of Kamikaze Soldiers would be more entertaining. You could set up a Police State and use Magic Mouth to keep the Fanatics fanatical; Orwell would be proud. :smallamused:

ericgrau
2009-02-27, 05:57 PM
That's why you take two turns to diplomance. It's not like they're going to attack you in that second turn.

Actually 2 minutes. You can, however, quicken each attempt to a round by taking a -10.

And the thing people seem to overlook when diplomancing and bluffing is that diplomacy should only be used for diplomacy and bluff for bluffing. The most silver-tongued diplomats in the world don't just walk up to their enemies within hostile territories without
A) Waving a flag or providing some indicator so that the person might stop to discuss.
B) Offering some kind of reasonable terms, y'know something that's also in the interests of the other person or party.

In other words there's still a lot of roleplaying involved in this skill. Just look how vague the retry rules are: What's the penalty for retrying? None given. Apparently it's up to the DM to determine whether retrying is even possible. Ditto for everything else involved, I'd say. So if something just plain doesn't make sense, then IMO there aren't enough dice in the world (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0043.html) to make a successful check. If OTOH you make a reasonable proposition but the NPC is still on the fence, then I see no reason why someone highly skilled at diplomacy shouldn't sway him every single time.

Alleine
2009-02-27, 06:02 PM
Actually 2 minutes. You can, however, quicken each attempt to a round by taking a -10.

A 1 level dip in Binder to snag Naberius reduces the penalty to 0 and makes the rushed check a standard action. You can take 10 on bluff and diplomacy checks as well, but I'm not sure if you can do both at once.

Keld Denar
2009-02-27, 06:18 PM
The Jumplomancer can get a Diplomacy roll of around a 1/2 a million, IIRC.

The trick doesn't work any more, based on the sages ruling that Divine Impetus can only be used once per round, though.

There is a PrC called Exemplar, which allows you to use another skill in place of a Diplomacy check.

Enter Chuck, the Ruby Knight Windicator. Basically discharges a Divine Metamagic: Persisted Footsteps of the Divine (Clr4, CChampion) to get a movement rate of ~144,030 ft per round. He then runs really really REALLY far and uses Tornado Throw (Setting Sun 9) from Tome of Battle to throw people into the sun. A side effect of having that high of a movement speed, though, is that you gain a +4 to your jump check for every 10 ft of movement speed you have over 30. This gives Chuck a bonus to his jump check of about +576,000 and change. A slightly altered version of Chuck includes the required Exemplar levels which allow him to leap AROUND THE WORLD to make people fanatic to him.

Yea, huzzah for Theoretical Optimization! Remember kids, don't try this at home! If you have any questions...UTFG.

DoomedPaladin
2009-02-27, 06:32 PM
You people are obscene. My brain hurts...:smalleek:

Dr Bwaa
2009-02-27, 06:38 PM
I am astonished that it took so long for the Jumplomancer to show up :)

Myrmex
2009-02-27, 08:20 PM
Fred stops at +94 (unless getting higher is buried deeper in the thread and I missed it). Use this to get to 155 (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-371519).

Note that Fred is only level 6.

Alleine
2009-02-27, 08:29 PM
Oh hey, I just remembered another trick.
Hivemind.
BoVD, Vermin Lord PrC. Its capstone ability allows it to form a hivemind, the rules of which are earlier in the book. You also get a vermin familiar, which is capable of being a swarm by that point. You can also summon swarms from spells.
Step 1: Summon as many swarms of the tiniest flying creatures as will fit in a 10x10 cube around you
Step 2: Use your capstone ability to create a hivemind including every swarm of vermin in that 10x10 cube
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!!!

The hivemind will consist of at least 10,001 creatures(the one being you), and will have a charisma and intelligence score nearly as high. The hivemind can put full ranks in diplo and with its charisma score, turn anyone into a fanatic.

There are other ways to make it last longer/permanent.

jcsw
2009-02-27, 11:35 PM
Oh hey, I just remembered another trick.
Hivemind.
BoVD, Vermin Lord PrC. Its capstone ability allows it to form a hivemind, the rules of which are earlier in the book. You also get a vermin familiar, which is capable of being a swarm by that point. You can also summon swarms from spells.
Step 1: Summon as many swarms of the tiniest flying creatures as will fit in a 10x10 cube around you
Step 2: Use your capstone ability to create a hivemind including every swarm of vermin in that 10x10 cube
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!!!

The hivemind will consist of at least 10,001 creatures(the one being you), and will have a charisma and intelligence score nearly as high. The hivemind can put full ranks in diplo and with its charisma score, turn anyone into a fanatic.

There are other ways to make it last longer/permanent.

"Man those centipedes are persuasive."

chiasaur11
2009-02-27, 11:47 PM
"Man those centipedes are persuasive."

"He's a hideous bug monster, sure, but he makes a good point."

"I know I have no issues with making this mishmash of insectiod monstrosities MY new deity of choice!"

Flickerdart
2009-02-28, 12:17 AM
"He's a hideous bug monster, sure, but he makes a good point."

"I know I have no issues with making this mishmash of insectiod monstrosities MY new deity of choice!"
Don't blame me, I voted for Chuck.

The Glyphstone
2009-02-28, 01:21 AM
Wasn't Chuck struck dead by errata that made Footsteps of the Divine a Dismissable spell and thus not eligible for Persistent Spell.

chiasaur11
2009-02-28, 01:56 AM
Don't blame me, I voted for Chuck.

And I voted for Kodos. Lets not get partisan here. I for one welcome our new insect overlords.

Tola
2009-02-28, 01:58 AM
Oh hey, I just remembered another trick.
Hivemind.
BoVD, Vermin Lord PrC. Its capstone ability allows it to form a hivemind, the rules of which are earlier in the book. You also get a vermin familiar, which is capable of being a swarm by that point. You can also summon swarms from spells.
Step 1: Summon as many swarms of the tiniest flying creatures as will fit in a 10x10 cube around you
Step 2: Use your capstone ability to create a hivemind including every swarm of vermin in that 10x10 cube
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!!!

The hivemind will consist of at least 10,001 creatures(the one being you), and will have a charisma and intelligence score nearly as high. The hivemind can put full ranks in diplo and with its charisma score, turn anyone into a fanatic.

There are other ways to make it last longer/permanent.

Large assembly hall. Large amounts of people from all races are here-called here by Lord Resno, a noted archmage of great skill.

"Ah, I'm glad you're all here. I felt it was very important that everyone could be here today. I have something very important to share with you."
"Make it quick, Resno. I don't like being in the same room with those Orcrists, or the Duregar, or..."
*Mutterings from all*
"..So what's this about, anyway? What's the big reveal?"
"...The birth...of a god."
"..The he..."
*Millions of insects and tiny creatures fly/crawl in in from everywhere, every direction. All present are trying to fend them off, save Resno, who is slowly being covered by them.*
"Augh, get them off me!"
"What trickery is this! Resno...Resno?!"
*Resno can't even be seen anymore-the pack of creatures is too huge. All of a sudden, the creature speaks*
"...REALISE YOUR FOLLIES, AND SUBMIT YOURSELVES."

*The words aren't yelled, and yet, every single person is stopped short, eyes unfocused, their minds meditating on their 'follies'. There is something in it's words that simultaneously demands, pressures, wheedles, persudes obediance. Refusing it's words is not only physically/mentally impossible, but practically unthinkable; the mind cannot comprehend NOT acting on it's will.

Thus, it is no surprise when every single person present prostrates themselves before the beast.*

"GOOD. WITH YOUR AID, THIS CITY WILL BE SHOWN MY LIGHT; AS WILL THE WORLD, IN TIME. LET US BEGIN AT ONCE."

*All leave the hall. Short screams may be heard, as are a constant stream of "STOP. JOIN US."*

thubby
2009-02-28, 02:04 AM
the best alternative I know is a 1/2 elf thrall master with all the non-class specific bonuses getting lots of assists.
and it's one of the few that does make sense, already having a throng of supporters is a good way to get more.

chiasaur11
2009-02-28, 02:10 AM
Wasn't there a diplomancer build that got incorporated into Pun-Pun that had infinite diplomacy?

Seemed to use pain loops, if I recall.

Asbestos
2009-02-28, 02:16 AM
Wait, I thought the Jumplomancer was totally RAW legal.

AgentPaper
2009-02-28, 02:27 AM
The half-a-million bonus one isn't anymore, apparently, but the fundamental idea still works. This one goes to 370: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=943738

Asbestos
2009-02-28, 02:31 AM
How does one combat Diplomancy, other than trying to kill the Diplomancer before becoming a fanatic?

chiasaur11
2009-02-28, 02:31 AM
How does one combat Diplomancy, other than trying to kill the Diplomancer before becoming a fanatic?

Insane sense motive?

Keld Denar
2009-02-28, 02:32 AM
Jumplomancer is legal by RAW. What doesn't work is Chuck, the Ruby Knight Windicator, because the FAQ ruled that Divine Impetus can only be used once per round (giving you 2 swift actions per round). They never touched Footsteps of the Divine, which technically isn't classified as a dischargable spell (see Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp for examples of dischargable spells) and thus is applicable for Persist Spell metamagic.

So yea, you can get an insane burst of speed from FotD which will allow you to have a movement speed of just under 3 miles which would allow you to run almost 14 miles in 6 seconds if you had the run feat. Of course, at that speed you would probably burst into flames, but thats a minor inconvenience!

Asbestos
2009-02-28, 02:32 AM
Insane sense motive?

Gods forbid whoever has that sense motive skill can also use it as a diplomacy check.

Zaq
2009-02-28, 03:41 AM
How does one combat Diplomancy, other than trying to kill the Diplomancer before becoming a fanatic?

RAW, you can't. Which is just one of many reasons why RAW Diplomacy is broken into tiny, tiny pieces with so little effort.

AgentPaper
2009-02-28, 03:47 AM
RAW, you can't. Which is just one of many reasons why RAW Diplomacy is broken into tiny, tiny pieces with so little effort.

I think you still can if you win initiative...but then the Diplomancer is probably going to find some way of talking directly into the minds of every single person within a few miles of himself...every round. How? He can talk to a solar for free wishes, among other things.

Zergrusheddie
2009-02-28, 03:53 AM
This Forum is amazing. You light one little fire, throw it into the Forums, and BOOM! You have a nuclear explosion. Love it.

SoD
2009-02-28, 06:10 AM
This Forum is amazing. You light one little fire, throw it into the Forums, and BOOM! You have a nuclear explosion. Love it.

And from those flames will eventually evolve a creature known as a 'flame war' which captures the mind as well as the bug diplomacer...

Flickerdart
2009-02-28, 11:59 AM
Wasn't there a diplomancer build that got incorporated into Pun-Pun that had infinite diplomacy?

Seemed to use pain loops, if I recall.
The Omniscificer was a build made to combat Pun-Pun (the old Pun-Pun, not Pazuzu-Pun). It had +infinity (not just NI) to all skills and stats, I believe, and abused the drowning rules to not die after the whole thing.

Alleine
2009-02-28, 01:04 PM
Fanatic status is considered a nonmagical mind affecting enchantment. So just get items that make you immune to enchantments or mind affecting abilities and you're safe.

I do like the hivemind. Its actually even more powerful than just the diplomacy aspect, but it would be an awesome concept to play. Seriously, someone who walks around using the dark speech to make other independent hiveminds before ascending into what is effectively godhood and 'liberating' the world from all non vermin and animals would be so cool.