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View Full Version : Sublime Chord: Confusion and Optimization



Olo Demonsbane
2009-02-27, 06:37 PM
There are several things that I am confused about with a sublime chord:

1) I have heard that the sublime chord isn't very good to advance; just use virtuso or something like that to advance the casting. However:
a) Song of Timelessness seems like an epic-epic timestop. Am I missing something?
b) Song of Arcane Power appears pretty good too. That can equate to (with a good perform check) 4d6 extra damage with a fireball, which is not a very powerfull spell.

2)Could you get one level in bard, then 6 levels in sorcerer, then 3 levels in X. Then take sublime chord. It seems to meet the requirements, and could make a good gish build.

3) For a gish build would bard 1/sorcerer 6/warblade 3/sublime chord 2/eldritch knight 8 be any good? It would get 9th level spells, have CL 25 with practiced spellcaster and song of arcane power, plus have 3rd level manuevers and BAB +15.

Any other advice would be welcome.

Bugbeartrap
2009-02-27, 06:43 PM
Well, I don't think a BAB of +13 is very good if you want to do melee. You could always take one level of virtuoso to qualify for sublime chord, instead of the level of bard. And I don't think your CL would be 25, it only ups your CL to a max of your HD, so you would top out at 20. I would also pick a different gish PrC than Eldritch knight. Have you checked out Abjurant Champion? or perhaps Jade Pheonix Mage?

... sorry, im too lazy right now to actually map out the whole build.

Keld Denar
2009-02-27, 06:57 PM
Song of Arcane Power is decent. Its either that or the 10th level ability of Virtuoso, which is kinda a tossup. The other songs really aren't that good compared to what you get from Virtuoso.

And yea, you could build exactly that. Better though, would be to take your first level of Eldritch Knight BEFORE you head into Sublime Chord, for the same reason you take the 1st level of Virtuoso before you you start SC.

Bard1/Sorc1/Warblade1/Sorc+5/EK1/Warblade+1/SC2/EK+8 would be abot the best build you could get out of this. You'd lose 5 points of BAB, leaving you just short of the +16 you need for your last iterative.

If you use Paragon Classes...
Human Paragon1/Bard1/Wizard1/HP+2/Wizard+1/Paladin2/Spellsword1/EK1/SublimeChord2/EK8

This would cost you only 3 BAB (HP1, Bard1, and Wizard1) leaving you with 17/20 BAB. Wizard would be better hear, since you would get better spells sooner, and you wouldn't really be MAD since you'd only need about a 13 int or so which would pretty much be required anyways to get into SC due to the massive skill point requirements on that one. Your wizard spells would be low level utility stuff like Benign Transposition, Detect Invisibility, and Fly, and your SC spells would be your power houses. This would make a pretty decent gish, even though it is rather complicated.

EDIT:
Abjurant Champ wouldn't really be good here, since if you advance SC casting with it, you would get 0 benefit from it because it wouldn't apply to your low level wizard spells, and SC doesn't get low level spells like Shield. The Martial Caster ability at 5th wouldn't help much either, since your SC CL would be 17, the same as your BAB.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-02-27, 08:10 PM
Keld Dunar: Thank you so much. That is awesome. [Copy/Paste]

Also, I just realized that this could make a decent mystic theurge as well:

Wizard 4/Cleric 3/Virtuoso 1/X 2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8, where X is a divine spellcasting advancing class.

This would give you Wizard Casting 5, Cleric Casting 13, and Sublime Chord full casting levels. Pretty decent.

Keld Denar
2009-02-27, 08:15 PM
Keld Dunar: Thank you so much. That is awesome. [Copy/Paste]
Welcome! It was fun to build. I <3 character building!


Also, I just realized that this could make a decent mystic theurge as well:

Wizard 4/Cleric 3/Virtuoso 1/X 2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8, where X is a divine spellcasting advancing class.

This would give you Wizard Casting 5, Cleric Casting 13, and Sublime Chord full casting levels. Pretty decent.

Nah, better is the Sublime Ur-Theurge.
Savage Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+2/Ur-Priest2/SublimeChord2/MysticTheuge8

This nets you FULL SC casting, FULL UP casting, or 9th level arcane and divine spells, along with nearly full Bardic Music, Telepathy 100' (and Mindsight!), Rebuke Undead (to power DMM on your UP side), and probably a few other tricks.

Much better than your build. Course, you are rotten stinkin evil and all the gods hate you, but meh, c'est la vie.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-02-27, 08:47 PM
Where is Ur Priest from?

Knowing my luck its probably from Complete Divine or Complete Champion, the two books that I don't have.

monty
2009-02-27, 08:48 PM
Where is Ur Priest from?

Knowing my luck its probably from Complete Divine or Complete Champion, the two books that I don't have.

Complete Divine, yes.

jcsw
2009-02-27, 09:33 PM
a) Song of Timelessness seems like an epic-epic timestop. Am I missing something?

Decent, but not overpowered.

1. Situational. Only good versus two or three enemies, more and you're better off throwing save-or-dies or lob a useful nuke (well, you didn't bar evoc, so you're free to use blasting when it's necessarily).
Occasionally it's useful against one, when the party hasn't had time to buff.

2. It's a one for one trade, neither you nor the opponent can move, so it's only useful if you're stopping something more dangerous than yourself.
(This isn't exactly true with the melodic casting feat, though)

3. You need to take 2 dead levels to get it.

Darrin
2009-02-27, 11:59 PM
1) I have heard that the sublime chord isn't very good to advance; just use virtuso or something like that to advance the casting. However:
a) Song of Timelessness seems like an epic-epic timestop. Am I missing something?
b) Song of Arcane Power appears pretty good too. That can equate to (with a good perform check) 4d6 extra damage with a fireball, which is not a very powerfull spell.


1a) Eh... there are better "save or lose" spells that are more permanent and don't need to be maintained.
1b) Yes, good, and usually worth picking up. Since you also get +1 BAB, most Sublime Chord builds grab 2 levels, unless you're trying to maximize Mystic Theurge/Arcane Hierophant dual casting.

If you're Sublime Gishing, then taking the BAB hit for more than 2 levels of Sublime Chord isn't worth it.



2)Could you get one level in bard, then 6 levels in sorcerer, then 3 levels in X. Then take sublime chord. It seems to meet the requirements, and could make a good gish build.


Possible, but extremely difficult to meet all the skill requirements without Able Learner, Flexible Mind, Skill Knowledge, Nymph's Kiss, etc.



3) For a gish build would bard 1/sorcerer 6/warblade 3/sublime chord 2/eldritch knight 8 be any good? It would get 9th level spells, have CL 25 with practiced spellcaster and song of arcane power, plus have 3rd level manuevers and BAB +15.


Some Gishes use Battle Sorcer instead to keep the BAB up. You want to slip in the first level of Eldritch Knight, Knight Phantom, or Jade Phoenix Mage before level 11, though. Also, Crusader is a little more optimal since there's some Cha synergy with their saves.

Darrin
2009-02-28, 12:03 AM
Forgive me if I spew forth a bit... I've been obsessing with some Sublime Chord builds the last few days.



Nah, better is the Sublime Ur-Theurge.
Savage Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+2/Ur-Priest2/SublimeChord2/MysticTheuge8

This nets you FULL SC casting, FULL UP casting, or 9th level arcane and divine spells, along with nearly full Bardic Music, Telepathy 100' (and Mindsight!), Rebuke Undead (to power DMM on your UP side), and probably a few other tricks.


Even better:

Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 2/Arcane Hierophant 3/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant +7/Green Whisperer +2

9th level sorcerer spells, 9th level druid spells, wildshape, and the gods hate you not because you're evil but because they're *jealous*.

There are some other ways to pick up Bardic Music. Someone already mentioned Virtuoso. There's also a PrC in Races of Faerun, Warrior Skald, that gives you bardic music with full BAB. There are a few other ways to get 3rd level arcane spells with full BAB:

Duskblade 9/Warrior Skald 1/Sub Chord 2/Arcane Chamion 5/Spellsword 3.
BAB: +19, 9th level spells

Not enough skill points to really pull it off, though... needs a lot of Flexible Mind, Skill Knowledge, Nymph's Kiss, etc.

This one looks like fun:

Paladin (Hunter of Fiends, Dragon #349) 4/Fiend Slayer 5 (Dragon #287)/Warrior Skald 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Chamion 5/Spellsword 3

Also possible:

Ranger 2/Duskblade 1/Vanilla Paladin 1/Fiend Slayer 5/Warrior Skald 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abj. Champ/Spellsword 3

Use Strong-Arm Combat Style (Dragon #326) to pick up Power Attack as your ranger bonus feat, and Arcane Disciple to add Protection from Evil to your Duskblade spells.

Fiend Slayer is a charisma-based arcane caster with full BAB and at level 5 they can cast 3rd level spells. Requires Favored Enemy: Evil Outsiders (provided by Hunter of Fiends or one level of Ranger) and the ability to cast Protection from Evil (provided by Paladin 4, Arcane Disciple, or Sword of the Arcane Order). But again, very short on skill points.

Psi-Hunter is even more promising (Dragon #281), which has full BAB, arcane casting, and gets 3rd level spells at 3rd level, which allows you to slip the first non-caster level of Eldritch Knight, Knight Phantom, or Jade Phoenix Mage in before Sublime Chord. Unfortunately, the "Spells per day" table for the Psi-Hunter was messed up or omitted, so assuming your DM even lets you use it, it's not entirely playable as presented.

My current favorite looks like:

Mystic Ranger (Dragon #336) 1/Duskblade 1/Mystic Ranger +5/Warrior Skald 1/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 2/JPM +4/Abj.Champ 5
BAB +19, 9th level spells, full caster progression on Sublime Chord.

Mystic Ranger drops martial weapon proficiency, shields, animal companion and delays some other ranger abilities for early spellcasting, up to 5th level. At Mystic Ranger 6, they can cast 3rd level spells. One level of Duskblade allows you to pick up Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325), which allows you to prepare your 3rd level ranger spells as arcane. (Adding Sword of the Arcane Order instead might do the same, depending on how you interpret it, although even if it doesn't let Paladins and Rangers cast arcane spells, it works as excellent gravy here). You'll still probably need Flexible Mind or Skill Knowledge to make Perform or Knowledge: Arcana into a class skill, but 6 levels of Mystic Ranger provides enough skill points to get most of the prereqs.

Zaq
2009-02-28, 01:50 AM
Okay, in every build in which Sublime Chord is mentioned, there's always a caveat about "take X class for one level before Sublime Chord!" This class is usually, but not always, Virtuoso... but why? What quirk of the rules makes it necessary to go Virt1/Chord1/Virt+X instead of simply Chord1/Virt X? I understand that you apply Virt's (or whatever) "+1 level of existing spellcasting" to Chord, but I don't see why you have to split it like that. Is it the weird caster level clause that Chord has? I'm sure it's something blindingly obvious in retrospect, but I confess I simply don't see it.

Keld Denar
2009-02-28, 02:41 AM
The main reason is that Virt 1 is a caster dead level. Since the first level of SC can only be taken at level 11, youd have to have 100% full +caster levels that come after it or you lose out on the full potential. So:

X10/SC1/Virt9 would cast as a SC9 at level 20

/x9/Virt1/SC1/Virt9 would cast as a SC10 at level 20

Virtuoso is most commonly cited because it advances your existing Bardic Music (mostly for Inspire Courage) and gives nearly full casting plus a handful of other useful abilities. The Jarring Song ability is pretty potent if you max out your Perform skill using various +skill items.

Make sense?

magic9mushroom
2009-02-28, 03:02 AM
There are several things that I am confused about with a sublime chord:

1) I have heard that the sublime chord isn't very good to advance; just use virtuso or something like that to advance the casting. However:
a) Song of Timelessness seems like an epic-epic timestop. Am I missing something?
b) Song of Arcane Power appears pretty good too. That can equate to (with a good perform check) 4d6 extra damage with a fireball, which is not a very powerfull spell.

2)Could you get one level in bard, then 6 levels in sorcerer, then 3 levels in X. Then take sublime chord. It seems to meet the requirements, and could make a good gish build.

3) For a gish build would bard 1/sorcerer 6/warblade 3/sublime chord 2/eldritch knight 8 be any good? It would get 9th level spells, have CL 25 with practiced spellcaster and song of arcane power, plus have 3rd level manuevers and BAB +15.

Any other advice would be welcome.

1) Point is that you can get better for your levels. Sublime Chord's main strength is its spellcasting.

2) Yes. You could also take one level in bard and 5 levels in wizard, or one level in bard and 3 levels in Ur-Priest with Alternative Source Spell. This coincidentally sets things up for Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord), which is one of the more optimised builds out there. Especially with Mage of the Arcane Order.

3) I wouldn't know. As has been said, though, take your first level of EK before Sublime Chord so you can get full SC spellcasting. And taking Wizard instead of Sorcerer nets you an extra level to play with.

@Zaq: You need Bardic Music to get into Sublime Chord, that's why :smallsmile:

magic9mushroom
2009-02-28, 03:47 AM
Welcome! It was fun to build. I <3 character building!


Nah, better is the Sublime Ur-Theurge.
Savage Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+2/Ur-Priest2/SublimeChord2/MysticTheuge8

This nets you FULL SC casting, FULL UP casting, or 9th level arcane and divine spells, along with nearly full Bardic Music, Telepathy 100' (and Mindsight!), Rebuke Undead (to power DMM on your UP side), and probably a few other tricks.

Much better than your build. Course, you are rotten stinkin evil and all the gods hate you, but meh, c'est la vie.

If you rule Mystic Theurge to be able to take classes gotten after your first level of MT, then things get REALLY interesting. It's iffy.

Wizard 4/Savage Bard 1/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 4 (Ur-Priest/Wizard)/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5 (Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)/X 4 where X advances Sublime Chord.

Cast as a 10th level Ur-Priest (CL 19) and 10th level Sublime Chord (CL 18). With 9th level divine spells at level 15. Yeah.

I wouldn't go down that route myself though, Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord jar too much in the fluff. I'd do something like:

Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 4/Ur-Priest 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Mystic Theurge 9 (Ur-Priest/Wizard)

Cast as an 18th level Wizard (CL 20) and 10th level Ur-Priest (CL 21). If you're wondering why the 5th level of Ultimate Magus, it gives a bonus metamagic feat. I pick Alternative Source Spell.

Tubercular Ox
2009-03-01, 03:39 AM
Here's a question: What's on the Sublime Chord's spell list? Bard spells and Sor/Wiz spells of 4th level and above only? So a Sublime Chord can read a scroll of Ice Storm fine but Fireball requires UMD? Not that these are the best spells to be casting... just illustrating the point.

Talya
2009-03-01, 03:44 AM
Or for a more ...flavorful...sublime chord, check out the link in my signature.

jcsw
2009-03-01, 05:30 AM
Here's a question: What's on the Sublime Chord's spell list? Bard spells and Sor/Wiz spells of 4th level and above only? So a Sublime Chord can read a scroll of Ice Storm fine but Fireball requires UMD? Not that these are the best spells to be casting... just illustrating the point.

By RAW: Yeah.
But at that point, if you've been maxing UMD like a good bard, you could use 3rd level scrolls without too much issue. (DC 25, vs 14 Ranks+4(or more)Cha)

Paul H
2009-03-03, 08:08 AM
Hi

Got a Gnome Bard 10/Sublime Chord as a backup character for our Age of Worms campaign. 28 pt buy, with only PHB/DMG?MM1/Spell Compendium, Complete: Adventurer, Arcane, Divine, Warrior allowed.

Including magic items:

Str 12 Dex 18 Con 18 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 28

Feats: SF Illusion, Extra Music, Lyric Spell, GSF Ilusion, Extra Spell (Fugue), Imp Toughness.

His Whirling Blade spell on his +1/Holy Dagger (Acid Gem) is
Attack: +20
Dam: D3+9 +Holy+D6 Acid (plus D6 Sonic from Sonic Wpn)

I prefer a Bard 6/Lyric Theurmatage 5/Sublime Chord 4

Same stats, but extra spells known from Sorc/Wiz, plus other benefits like Sonic Might.

Base Spells/Day
3/4/4/4/5/3/2

Spells Known
Bard: 6/4/4/4/3
Sor/Wiz 1st (1) 2nd (1) 4th (4) 5th (3) 6th (2)

Spells Taken:

0) Detect Magic, Read Magic, Mage Hand, Resistance, Message, Mending
1) Comp Langs, Cure Lt Wnds, Improvisation, Grease, (Lssr Acid Orb)
2) Tongues, Glitterdust, Whirling Blade, Sonic Wpn, (Scorching Ray)
3) Haste, Invis Sphere, Leomund's Hut, Glibness
4) Gtr Invis, Freedom Movement, Fugue, (Orb of Sound, Evard's Tentacles, Heart of Earth, Phantasmal Killer)
5) (Mass Fly, Cacophonic Burst, Shadow Evocation)
6) (Gtr Dispel Magic, Permanent Image)

Feats:
Melodic Casting, SF Illusion, GSF Illusion, Lyric Spell, (Captivating Melody), Extra Music, Extra Spell (Wall of Force)

Bardic Song: 17/Day (Can be used to 'refill' spell slots)

Ok, possibly not the best build, but I'm limited to what books I own. Still, not bad since all sonic spells do extra D6/Spell Lvl damage. (Orb of Sound 15D4+4D6 damage, Cacophonic Burst 20D6)!

Certainly flexible. Your Evard's grapple mod is between + 23 to +27, depending on Perform check.

Cheers
Paul H

jcsw
2009-03-03, 08:42 AM
Not sure what you're asking so I'm assuming you're looking for suggestions

1. Look up Creaking Cacophony in spell compendium. It may or may not suit your party, but it's probably very useful for a character like yours.

2. Why do you have so many illusion feats when you have almost no illusion spells with saves?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-03, 11:34 AM
As others have said, Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/SC 1/Virtuoso 9 is much better than your current level set-up. SC gives you nothing worth mentioning except spell progression. As soon as you have that, you need to PrC out ASAP.

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 11:45 AM
SC2 has the very handy Song of Arcane Power for when you need high CL spells though; I generally go Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/SC 2/Virtuoso 8.