Dervish

[Baltor]

is the dervish prc worth taking as a fighter? rogue? I am not much of a power gamer, but it seems that the ability to take full move action and use your full attack even on multiple opponents would at least help to keep martial characters somewhat more viable at upper levels. especially if you also took the two weapon fighting tree as well. I have seen many threads claiming that this prc or that "fixes" the "low efficacy at high levels" problem, but never dervish am I missing somthing?

[Eldariel]

I love Dervishes. That said, they have few fundamental issues:
-The class costs you a ton of feats to enter, most of which are crap (seriously, Dodge, Mobility?!). Therefore, you need sources of bonus feats and be willing to waste them to enter.
-The class only provides very modest bonus damage to your TWFing (which is also feat intensive, amplifying above problem). That means that you need some out-of-class damage bonuses to truly make it work. Skirmish is personal favourite since it's so easy for a Dervish to activate; the only issue is that Skirmish isn't multiplied on a critical and Scimitars are critical-based weapons.
-You really need to go all the way to make anything worthwhile out of the class. Also, your dance duration until late in the game is very modest as it's derived off skillranks, one thing you can't really boost in this game.


You can sidestep the TWF issue by Power Dancing with a two-hander instead, but unfortunately you're really wasting feats at that point; two-hander would rather be charging than dancing anyways, while a two-weapon fighter has little to gain in charge as you can't really Power Attack efficiently anyways.

So yea, it's not optimal, but it's playable and can be reasonably efficient. It's nice that as a bonus for playing the class, you get the semi-free ability to raise your AC to infinity with Elaborate Parry (don't forget that it's fully possible to keep Total Defense up out of combat as long as you move at half speed). Anyways, the key is how you ensure getting reasonable extra damage.

Ranger 2/Scout 4 with Swift Hunter is a fine lead-in for example; toss in Improved Skirmish and you'll be Skirmishing for +4d6 per attack (and extra AC); all you need to do is to talk to your DM about making class-based movement bonus typeless ('cause all the others are already; it's really dumb that Scout and Dervish can't stack nor use magical equipment boosts 'cause their Extraordinary speed bonus is "enhancement") and go to town. Having two favored enemies you can always Skirmish is really handy too; you can complement that with the Crystals from MiC (as long as your DM allows for them to work on non-SA Precision too, which would sorta make sense as they enable critting and so on too).

[BobVosh]

Rogue is decent, but not really great as you have to move between each attack. That means you likely don't have sneak attack on more than one swing.

Fighter is good, so long as you get all the feats for +damage on swings for stuff like 1000 cuts. Fighters don't get preform...so need to find a class to hit that does.

Scout from Complete Adventurer rocks out in this Class. Full attacked with skirmish bonus damage. Like sneak attack on every attack. Also +movement on scout means you can move up a bit and do the full attack. I would recommend a 2 level dip into fighter for some TWF feats or dodge + mobility that is needed for the prereqs of Dervish. Dervish is on of my favorite PrC and I think it is reasonably effective. Admitably it has all the pitfalls of most melee fighters, but it is fun.

Oh ya, Ranger works well, as El mentioned. Curse his sudo-ninja soul! I always forget that one, because I have this hatred towards Ranger.

[Stephen_E]

Also take the Elusive Target feat CW. The prereq are Dodge and Mobility, which you have to get anyway, and it gives you 3 awesom abilities.

1) If flanked by your Dodge target their 1st attack is against the flanker, catching him flatfooted, rather than you.

2) If your Dodge target power attacks you they get no bonus danage.

3) If you cause an AOO by moving out of a threatened square and they miss you get a free trip attempt and can't be tripped back.

If you also get Improved Trip (prereq Combat Expertise, a Dervish prereq) you can also hit them after a successful trip.

So a successful tactic is to move around doing your Dervish multiple attacks without tumbling and attract those AOOs, with the +4 AC drom Mobility, and everytime they miss you get a free trip attack and on a sucessful trip an additional followup attack.

If you want to take the TWF route then you might want to look at the Ebberon Valanar Double Scimitar. It gains the Dervish Scimitar effect and gives acess to Exotic Weaponmaster which has some useful stuff.

Another option is looking at the Flameblade spell. If you can get the ability to use it via ring of spell storing/friendly druid or magic item, along with the empower and energy substitution metamagic feats you can truly rock with touch attacks to hit. This also allows a pure dex build using weapon finnesse to wield the scimitar flameblades (scimitars are light weapons for Dervishs) and power attack.

Stephen E

[Eldariel]

Better reason to go with Valenar Double Scimitar is the Revenant Blade PrC from Player's Guide to Eberron. You get a bunch of bonus feats (as you see above, the Dervish really wants his feats) and more importantly, the ability to make two-handed Power Attacks with each end of the Scimitar! That's just an insane source of damage right there.

But yea, the principal issue with Improved Trip, Elusive Target and all that is that the Dervish is already horribly featstarved and you need bonus damage sources too (such as Deadly Defense or Improved Skirmish). Also, Improved Trip requires Strength-checks which means you can't go for the traditional Dex-focused Dervish, but you need Str-focus (and the TWF-line requires huge Dex, which can be a real issue here) for the Trip-checks.

[BobVosh]

Pretty sure double weapons don't work that way with PA. Or really anything except enchanting.

[magic9mushroom]

Pretty sure double weapons don't work that way with PA. Or really anything except enchanting.

He just said it's a class feature.

[BobVosh]

He just said it's a class feature.

Touche. I misread what he wrote.

[KillianHawkeye]

Pro Tip: Take Expeditious Dodge from Races of the Wild. When you move at least 40 ft., you gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until your next turn. And it counts as having Dodge for feats, PrCs, and other special abilities.

[Draz74]

But wait, wouldn't a Double Scimitar-wielding Revenant Blade/Dervish be self-defeating, since Dervish makes him consider the scimitar Light, so he can't Power Attack with it at all?

(Of course, like the the Scout/Dervish speed stacking, this is a pretty obvious houserule. But RAW?)

[Eldariel]

Scimitar =/= Valenar Double Scimitar. Separate weapons, so Slashing Blades doesn't affect it at all. Also, Revenant Blade specifically learns to use both ends of the weapon as two-handed; even the light one.

[Draz74]

Ah, ok. I assumed Slashing Blades was what Stephen_E meant when he said that the Double Scimitar "gains the Dervish Scimitar effect."

[Eldariel]

I have no idea what he meant by that to be honest; it's already a dual weapon and so can be wielded without extra penalties and all the Scimitar-ability does is lower the TWF penalties.

[woodenbandman]

I like dervish but the unfortunate(or should I say joyous?) truth is that most of the Prestige Classes for warriors ever printed can be done better with maneuvers from Tome of Battle. Dervish for instance: Around the time you get a dervish's greatest ability (thousand cuts + deadly dance), a warblade has Wolf Pack Tactics and Time Stands Still, which do basically the same thing: You double your attacks, and you can move 5ft after an attack on a full attack. I love Tome of Battle. I should make a warblade.

[Person_Man]

Dervish sucks.

It was a half decent PrC when Pounce was rare and 100 other supplements didn't exist. But now it's pretty much a waste of time. Weak pre-reqs. Minor bonuses. TWF math problems. Honestly, you're better off as a strait Ranger with a Spell Compendium or a strait Rogue with Dragonfire Strike and Savvy Rogue, and both of these are pretty modest builds.

[Talya]

I love the dervish class, although as others have pointed out, it's no longer the melee powerhouse it was when released. Still, you can do fun things with it.

I like this build:

Gray Elf (+2 dex, +2 int, -2 str, -2 con)
Flaw1: Weapon Focus-Longsword {unfortunate PrC requirement}
Flaw2: Dodge
1. Swashbuckler (Level: Combat Expertise, Class: Weapon Finesse)
2. Swashbuckler
3. Swashbuckler (Level: Martial Study, Class: Intuitive Strike)
4. Fighter (Bonus: Two Weapon Fighting)
5. Fighter (Bonus: Mobility)
6. Dervish (Class: Dervish dance/Slashing Blades, Level: Mounted Combat {Unfortunate PrC requirement})
7. Dervish (Class: Fast movement +5)
8. Champion of Corellon Larethian (Bonus: Elusive Target)
9. Champion of Corellon Larethian (Class: Elegant Strike, Level: Improved TWF)
10: Dervish (Class: Spring Attack, Dervish dance 2)
11: Dervish (Class: Dance of Death)
12: Dervish (Class: Fast Movement +10/Dervish Dance 3, Level: Greater TWF)
13: Dervish (Class: Improved Reaction)
14: Dervish (Class: Elaborate Parry/Dervish Dance 4)
15: Dervish (Class: Fast Movement +15, Level: Martial Study)
16: Dervish (Class: Tireless Dance/Dervish Dance 5)
17: Dervish (Class: A thousand cuts)
18: Warblade (Class: Battle Clarity/Weapon Aptitude, Level: Martial Stance, 3 Maneuvers {go primarily for boosts and counters.})
19: Warblade (Class: Uncanny Dodge, Manuever)
20: Warblade (Class: Battle Ardor, Maneuver)


Maneuvers-Desert Wind (from martial study feat): Burning Blade. Tiger Claw: Claw at the Moon, Sudden Leap, Fountain of Blood, Dancing Mongoose. Iron Heart: Wall of Blades, Lightning Recovery
Stances: Punishing Stance (+1d6 bonus damage per hit), Dancing Blade Form (+5' reach with all attacks)

[dspeyer]

If you're going high-int, consider mixing in invisible blade and using kukris.

[Draz74]

I like dervish but the unfortunate(or should I say joyous?) truth is that most of the Prestige Classes for warriors ever printed can be done better with maneuvers from Tome of Battle. Dervish for instance: Around the time you get a dervish's greatest ability (thousand cuts + deadly dance), a warblade has Wolf Pack Tactics and Time Stands Still, which do basically the same thing: You double your attacks, and you can move 5ft after an attack on a full attack. I love Tome of Battle. I should make a warblade.

True. I think nowdays the best Dervish might be Ranger 3 / Swordsage 17 or something. Tiger Claw, Desert Wind, and Diamond Mind make a great combo for a Dervish flavor.

[Talya]

Beautiful thing about ToB classes is they multiclass wonderfully with every melee concept. Dervish can be made much better by swordsage or warblade (stick to boosts, counters, and stances for the most part...strikes aren't really that compatible with dervish dancing.)

[Stephen_E]

Ah, ok. I assumed Slashing Blades was what Stephen_E meant when he said that the Double Scimitar "gains the Dervish Scimitar effect."

It was. If the weapon has the word "scimitar" in it it is a "scimitar" for the purpose of Slashing blades, unless you can find something that says otherwise.

But since the class feature he is talking about seem to allow you to ignore this you get the best of both worlds. Treat as a light weapon for 2WF penalties and as a 2HW for power attack.

Regarding been feat starved. - It should be noted that a Human Fighter 2/Scout 4 gives you 7 feats of which 4 are required for Dervish prereqs. This gives you 3 spare feats.

As for Elusive target/Improved Trip - since you can't be tripped back high strength isn't so important. Normal trip builds it is crucial because of the risk of been tripped back. With this feat combo improving your trip ability is nice but it is a relatively safe bonus attack. there is also an ability that allows you a free attack if someone hits you with a AOO (retributive strike or something). If you can manage that it becomes the perfect combo. Lots of movement running around attacking people and additional attacks for every AOO made at you. :smallsmile:

Stephen E