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View Full Version : Undead Monster Classes. (Libris Mortis)



magic9mushroom
2009-02-28, 09:25 AM
Is it just me or do some of them have far too many levels? Let's take the Wight for instance. The Wight is Challenge Rating 4, has 4 Hit Dice. Its abilities aren't better than those of an average 4th-level PC. Why, then, is the monster class 8 levels long, indicating a +4 LA? This seems to just unduly penalise undead characters. Mohrg has you playing a CR 8 creature at level 20 - WTF?

Starbuck_II
2009-02-28, 09:40 AM
Is it just me or do some of them have far too many levels? Let's take the Wight for instance. The Wight is Challenge Rating 4, has 4 Hit Dice. Its abilities aren't better than those of an average 4th-level PC. Why, then, is the monster class 8 levels long, indicating a +4 LA? This seems to just unduly penalise undead characters. Mohrg has you playing a CR 8 creature at level 20 - WTF?

Yes, you have to take extra levels due to the LA. That is the purpose of LA after all.

Wight:
What do the extra 4 levels give:
Create Spawn (very powerful as it says slain in anyway by the wight), Energy Drain (pretty strong), +2 Wis, +2 Str, +7 NA, and +2 Cha.

Really, I can't understand why you think that isn't worth it.

Remember, each spawn is your minion forever until destroyed.
Wight can kill 4th level people as PCs.
Energy Drain 1/day at level 4 isn't too powerful, but at will is too strong. If I redid the Monster class I would lower Energy Drain to 4th level at 1/day.
You only get the full version at level 8.

This way you get an actual taste of the ability.

Mohrg: Again, Creating Spawn is highly prized. Weaker as it is just zombie though.
Seeing as Create spawn is a weak: I could see bumping off a Level or two. But remember, Mohrg have 14 HD.

Armads
2009-02-28, 09:54 AM
All of the monster classes in Libris Mortis are terrible. Even though creating spawn is pretty nice, they have the health similiar to that of a paper mache bag.

Look at the mohrg as an example. It has 91 hp on average, creates zombies (a terrible type of spawn), and only has undead traits and +9 natural armor to protect itself. With a fort save of +4 (before items, of course, but with items it only reaches +9). A disintegrate cast by a level 13 wizard would deal 91 damage on a failed save. That would instantly kill a mohrg.

Zeta Kai
2009-02-28, 10:10 AM
only has undead traits

Um, what? Undead traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) are some of the best in the game. If they didn't all Constitution/Con-based benefits, they would be worth an LA+1 all by themselves. As it is, they are still quite impressive.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-28, 10:15 AM
Look at it this way. You get, in 8 levels, the hit dice of a 4th level fighter, the BAB of a 4th level wizard, and abilities that are certainly not equal in power to those of an 8th level character.

How is an 8th level Wight the equal in any way of, say, an 8th level Dread Necromancer? Far less BAB and saves (a COMMONER has higher BAB than you!), 1 less feat, no spells, less HD. And what do you get for it? Some natural armour and ability bonuses. Weaker than a DN in quite a few ways even without spells. Create spawn? A DN can make and command Wights at that level. Energy Drain? Enervation. Slam attack? Um... how about no? And DN isn't considered one of the stronger classes.

Now, take a Mohrg. A 20th level Mohrg, and remember, you can't multiclass or PrC, is far, far weaker than a 20th level Monk. And you can be destroyed in one hit with no save about 50% of the time by a 10th level cleric with a Phylactery of Undead Turning. You suck.

Basically, the cause of all this failness is that some retard decided that monsters should have an LA equal to their CR in addition to their racial Hit Dice. Which is retarded. A creature with CR X is about the equal of a character with ECL X+2. Not a creature with ECL 2X. Which is what monster classes give you.

Just DLed Savage Species, and it seems most monster classes are as bad as the undead ones. Ah well, at least they're consistent.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-28, 10:29 AM
Um, what? Undead traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) are some of the best in the game. If they didn't all Constitution/Con-based benefits, they would be worth an LA+1 all by themselves. As it is, they are still quite impressive.

Undead traits have some major downsides, to say the least. Let's see:

Turning.
No natural healing.
Can't be reanimated except with Limited Wish, Wish, Miracle.
Dead at 0 HP.

Those are some pretty big downsides.

LA +1 for undead traits with no Con score loss would be reasonable, though. Of note is the Necropolitan, which effectively loses 1000 XP over a normal reincarnation.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-28, 10:46 AM
Look at it this way. You get, in 8 levels, the hit dice of a 4th level fighter, the BAB of a 4th level wizard, and abilities that are certainly not equal in power to those of an 8th level character.

How is an 8th level Wight the equal in any way of, say, an 8th level Dread Necromancer? Far less BAB and saves (a COMMONER has higher BAB than you!), 1 less feat, no spells, less HD. And what do you get for it? Some natural armour and ability bonuses. Weaker than a DN in quite a few ways even without spells. Create spawn? A DN can make and command Wights at that level. Energy Drain? Enervation. Slam attack? Um... how about no? And DN isn't considered one of the stronger classes.

Now, take a Mohrg. A 20th level Mohrg, and remember, you can't multiclass or PrC, is far, far weaker than a 20th level Monk. And you can be destroyed in one hit with no save about 50% of the time by a 10th level cleric with a Phylactery of Undead Turning. You suck.

Basically, the cause of all this failness is that some retard decided that monsters should have an LA equal to their CR in addition to their racial Hit Dice. Which is retarded. A creature with CR X is about the equal of a character with ECL X+2. Not a creature with ECL 2X. Which is what monster classes give you.

Just DLed Savage Species, and it seems most monster classes are as bad as the undead ones. Ah well, at least they're consistent.

Dude, even a 14th level Mohrg (they have 14 HD im monster manual) is weaker than a Monk.

Wights, however, don't suck. HD are of a Barbariabn not a Fighter (that would be d10). Undead get 1d12. BAB is of a commoner.
Dread necros run out of spells. Aren't immune to sneak/Criticals by level 8. DN can't make Wights except though Create Undead spell (6th level spell).
That isn't gained till 12th level.

Zeta Kai
2009-02-28, 10:59 AM
No natural healing.

That's only for Undead with no Intelligence score, which are unsuitable for PC's anyway, & therefore don't count. There is nothing that says an intelligent undead does not heal on its own.

Also, many Undead have Turn Resistance &/or Fast Healing, which ameliorate many of their weaknesses. Even Constructs aren't as resilient.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-28, 11:15 AM
Dude, even a 14th level Mohrg (they have 14 HD im monster manual) is weaker than a Monk.

Wights, however, don't suck. HD are of a Barbariabn not a Fighter (that would be d10). Undead get 1d12. BAB is of a commoner.
Dread necros run out of spells. Aren't immune to sneak/Criticals by level 8. DN can't make Wights except though Create Undead spell (6th level spell).
That isn't gained till 12th level.

To be a 14 HD Mohrg requires character level 20. That's the whole point. You don't get an HD every level in monster classes. If you did, they'd be much better (nowhere near overpowered though in most cases), but you get about 1 every 2 levels. Even then though, undead generally are crap for their HD. Wights are an exception.

I said HD of a Fighter because you don't have a Con score. Most Fighters will have at least +1 Con. BAB is less than a Commoner because for a Wight you get one HD every 2 levels. At 8th level you have +2 BAB, while a Commoner has +4.

Dread Necros get Enervation at level 8. Drain someone below 1st level and they become a Wight, which you can then Command with Rebuking. Dread Necros also get by this stage at-will healing and DR 4, as well as a fear aura, which is superior to fortification in my book. And that's leaving aside that the DN is a full casting class. And its non-casting abilities are still better than those of a Wight.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-28, 11:21 AM
Dread Necros get Enervation at level 8. Drain someone below 1st level and they become a Wight, which you can then Command with Rebuking. Dread Necros also get by this stage at-will healing and DR 4, as well as a fear aura, which is superior to fortification in my book. And that's leaving aside that the DN is a full casting class. And its non-casting abilities are still better than those of a Wight.

Ah, but you only get 3 + spell bonus that level of 4th.
Now, if you fight lots of weakling monsters (DM is coddling you) sure you can enervate them easily.
But if you are fighting challenges (something with reasonable HD like multiple 6's) then you'll need a couple (and hope rest of party doesn't kill them).

Then you have to hope to use Rebuking before the wights rise and attack the party.
But yes, it is possible for a DN to do this.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-28, 11:33 AM
That's only for Undead with no Intelligence score, which are unsuitable for PC's anyway, & therefore don't count. There is nothing that says an intelligent undead does not heal on its own.

Also, many Undead have Turn Resistance &/or Fast Healing, which ameliorate many of their weaknesses. Even Constructs aren't as resilient.

Well, looks like I stuffed up one of them.

Turn Resistance is useful, but still isn't enough for most of these horribly weak monster classes because you don't get an HD every level.

There is a 1st level bloodline feat that gives regeneration 1. And the undead with Fast Healing generally have a lack of other useful abilities. I will concede that said undead deserve slightly more of their LA than the others, though, as Fast Healing is much more useful for a PC than a monster.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-28, 11:36 AM
Ah, but you only get 3 + spell bonus that level of 4th.
Now, if you fight lots of weakling monsters (DM is coddling you) sure you can enervate them easily.
But if you are fighting challenges (something with reasonable HD like multiple 6's) then you'll need a couple (and hope rest of party doesn't kill them).

Then you have to hope to use Rebuking before the wights rise and attack the party.
But yes, it is possible for a DN to do this.

Find random alone Commoner at 5:30 pm. Enervation. Then wait. Not hard. And you only need one, then you can use it to kill others.

Flickerdart
2009-02-28, 11:46 AM
An 8th level Dread Necromancer could grab a Thrallherd cohort and Enervate all his Believers (of which he would have 30-odd) for instantly available Wights. If stacking Leadership and Thrallherd isn't your thing, just hire one, or get all your Leadership followers into a keep or something, send the cohort to lock the door, and go wild.

Starbuck_II
2009-02-28, 12:26 PM
Find random alone Commoner at 5:30 pm. Enervation. Then wait. Not hard. And you only need one, then you can use it to kill others.

Okay, let us say the Wight isn't an evil one. Now the Wight is better as the DN will be killing innocent commoners and be evil.

magic9mushroom
2009-02-28, 12:33 PM
Okay, let us say the Wight isn't an evil one. Now the Wight is better as the DN will be killing innocent commoners and be evil.

?

Where else is the Wight Apocalypse going to come from?

And, my avatar should be a clue as to whether I care if it's evil or not.

Keld Denar
2009-02-28, 02:49 PM
Yea, the monster class progressions in LM do suck, but there is one gem, hidden in there. In the monster section, there is the Gravetouched Ghoul template. Its pretty much one of the most freakin amazing +2 templates in the game. For that +2, which you can buy off by level 9 (assuming BO available), you get 3 natural weapons, a scaling DC paralysis and disease (arguably, only the paralysis is useful in combat, but the disease creates spawn), and some pretty sick stat bonuses. Its great for a Cha based character like a Hexblade/Marshall/Blackguard using [Fear] stacking. At DC=10 + 1/2 HD + cha (primary stat), your paralysis scales pretty well, even though its a fort save. Tack on the free penalties from Aura of Dispair and Dark Companion (no save) along with Dreadful Wrath and Hexblade Curse (will save penalized by the above 2) and you've got a free +4 to +10 to your paralysis DC. An effective DC of 45 or so is easily achieveable by ECL10. Thats just about unmakeable by any level 10 character unless they have a great Con and 1 level each in all good fort save classes...

Just hope you don't run into many elementals, plants, constructs, other undead, or elves (yes, elves are freakin scary! :P).