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View Full Version : [3.5]Core rogue- fighter dip worth it?



Myrmex
2009-02-28, 07:43 PM
If you're playing a dwarven rogue, core only, would a dip in fighter be worth it for the feat & proficiency with dwarven weapons? You lose a ton of skill points.

I think a dwarf wielding a waraxe and a handaxe would look bad ass, but he couldn't weapon finesse the former, which would be a problem, since strength will likely be less than dex.

AgentPaper
2009-02-28, 07:46 PM
I don't remember the book it was from, but there was a variant fighter that got SA progression instead of feats. You'd still lose out on skill points, but it would make the level-dip more useful.

Talya
2009-02-28, 07:49 PM
I generally like a level or two of fighter with a rogue.

Nothing wrong with going strength-rogue either.

Myrmex
2009-02-28, 07:49 PM
I don't remember the book it was from, but there was a variant fighter that got SA progression instead of feats. You'd still lose out on skill points, but it would make the level-dip more useful.

I think it's unearthed arcana; you can find that variant on the SRD. Unfortunately, as it's not not the PHB, MM, or DMG, it's not core.

monty
2009-02-28, 07:50 PM
Just don't do it at first level. 6 skill points is acceptable for the most part. 24? Not so much.

MeklorIlavator
2009-02-28, 07:51 PM
You might try Ranger instead of fighter: less HP, sure, but you get full BaB and more skills.

Myrmex
2009-02-28, 07:55 PM
You might try Ranger instead of fighter: less HP, sure, but you get full BaB and more skills.

Oh, good call. Two levels of ranger gets you track (useful), TWF, and a favored enemy. And skills. IMO, that's better than two bonus fighter feats, esp. in core. There's some flavor there, too. You could be an orc hunter or something.

Tehnar
2009-02-28, 08:19 PM
The problem with taking a level or two of ranger is that invokes multiclass penalties, since the OPs rogue is a dwarf.

However, if you get the DM to handwave that penalty away, a ranger is a choice mechanically, if it fits RP wise.



I think a dwarf wielding a waraxe and a handaxe would look bad ass, but he couldn't weapon finesse the former, which would be a problem, since strength will likely be less than dex.

What you could do mechanically, is to wield the handaxe in your main hand, and the waraxe in the offhand. I would RP wise justify it that you are keeping the enemy busy with furious blows from the handaxe while waiting for the perfect opening for the waraxe.

Glyphic
2009-02-28, 08:21 PM
Somewhere along the line, you should take a level of something. Anything not to take the 20th level of rouge, as it has no capstone!

Hawriel
2009-02-28, 10:23 PM
I think a dwarven rogue diping into fighter makes alot of sence. Heck to me its just a natural thing. I wouldnt go past four levels in fighter though. That will give you alot of combat feats to chose from, boost that fort save and bab. beyond that your really tanking your rogue skills. Also I would wait untill third or fourth level to dip into fighter. That way the skills you focus in are nice and high. You also dont have to take the fighter levels all at once. traid back and forth between rogue and fighter untill you get the fighter levels you want. I wouldnt bother with weapon finess for a dwarf at all. Heck Id make his STR and DEX 14 for both and go with a high INT. Insted if a battle axe, hand axe combo I would use a short sword and hand axe. They are both light weapons which will bring your TWF penalties down to -2.

JonestheSpy
2009-02-28, 10:31 PM
I think a dwarven rogue diping into fighter makes alot of sence. Heck to me its just a natural thing. I wouldnt go past four levels in fighter though. That will give you alot of combat feats to chose from, boost that fort save and bab. beyond that your really tanking your rogue skills. Also I would wait untill third or fourth level to dip into fighter. That way the skills you focus in are nice and high. You also dont have to take the fighter levels all at once. traid back and forth between rogue and fighter untill you get the fighter levels you want. I wouldnt bother with weapon finess for a dwarf at all. Heck Id make his STR and DEX 14 for both and go with a high INT. Insted if a battle axe, hand axe combo I would use a short sword and hand axe. They are both light weapons which will bring your TWF penalties down to -2.

Agree with Hawriel pretty much point by point.

For humans, I'm a big fan of rogue/rangers; they complement each other extremely well.

Thurbane
2009-02-28, 10:46 PM
A dip in barbarian only costs you 4 skill points, but gets you fast movement, rage 1/day and martial weapon proficiency.

AmberVael
2009-02-28, 11:15 PM
A dip in barbarian only costs you 4 skill points, but gets you fast movement, rage 1/day and martial weapon proficiency.

"Curse this lock! It is too difficult to pry open, even for my skill- but I am not finished with it yet. I advise you to stand back"

Rogue rolls up his sleeve and activates ONCE PER DAY ROGUE RAGE!

"RARGH ROGUE SMASH LOCK!"

Samb
2009-02-28, 11:25 PM
I thought it was standard to take 3 dips into swashbukler for WF and grace. Although many have gone more levels into swashbukler and taken the daring outlaw feat so I guess that isn't really an answer

Fighter dip is inferior to psi warrior dip. In 2 lvls you get the same amount of feats but with a wider selection and it qualifies you for elocator. A very techy and skill heavy PrC and you still have .75 bab progression.

I think a dip into swordsage down the road (like lvl 8) for shadow jaunt and assasin stance. Keeping in mind that half of all your non initiating lvls count towards what moves you can select, and it gives you weapon focus feat and +2 on initiative.

Agreed with above about barbarian. +10 on movement is very nice for short darwves or any thief in a hurry.

I personally don't know what kind of rogue you are building. I guess you want a two handed one, in which case you need all you feats you can get to make it work. That includes TWF, improved and greater TWF, weapon focus (maybe for both main and off hand), duel strike. That's 4-5 feats you need and you only get 7 (9 if you take flaws) from 1-20. And thats not including juicey rogue feats like deadly precion, telling blows, and spring attack. So you might need to take 2 in warrior and 2 in psi warrior and sacrifice skills.
So yeah, not only is it worth it, it's almost mandatory for two weapon build rogue.

Keld Denar
2009-02-28, 11:37 PM
Except most of your post has no relevance because in the title we find "Re: [3.5]Core rogue- fighter dip worth it?" Notice the Core word? No Swashbuckler, Daring Outlaw, Swordsage, or any of that jazz.


And thats not including juicey rogue feats like deadly precion, telling blows, and spring attack.

All bad feats. Deadly Prescision is an increase of what, .16 damage per die of SA. Basically you need 9 dice it see a 1 point increase in average damage. Telling Blows is typically bad for a rogue. Critting is typically bad for a rogue. This is contrary to popular belief, but if you look on a core rogue what exactly gets multiplied? +str bonus and base weapon damage. Thats it. SA is never multiplied on a crit. So focusing on critting does almost nothing to increase your damage, and a smart rogue should be positioning himself in a way that 100% of his attacks get SA, instead of praying to the RNG for a 1/4 chance of scoring a crit. It does have some circumstantial benefits, like negating crit immunity due to concealment and allowing SA at ranges of greater than 30', but those are so circumstantial that they are not worth burning a valueable feat on. Also, it and Deadly Prescision aren't Core. Spring Attack is a trap. It requires 2 bad feats and using it cuts down on your damage to a point where you might as well not even be in the battle. Its like taking TWF, and then strapping one hand behind your back. So you've invested 3 feats for a trick that will probably still get you squished because you don't have a high enough movement speed to get far enough from the thing you are attacking, not to mention that it screws the rest of your party out of the ability to flank with you which gives the fighter another ~4 damage with Power Attack.

Temp.
2009-03-01, 12:00 AM
If you're playing a dwarven rogue, core only, would a dip in fighter be worth it for the feat & proficiency with dwarven weapons? You lose a ton of skill points.

I think a dwarf wielding a waraxe and a handaxe would look bad ass, but he couldn't weapon finesse the former, which would be a problem, since strength will likely be less than dex.

The dip probably wouldn't be worthwhile for your average Rogue, but for your Core Dwarf double-axe-fighter, Rogue X/Fighter 1 would be about as slick as it gets.

Comparing the damage between a straight Rogue TWF-ing with daggers and a Fighter 1/Rogue X TWF-ing with those axes is going to end up in the Rogue's favor ever odd level and be a pretty close match every even one.

But if you want a skillful Dwarf who runs around with two axes, the alternative would be what -- Ranger? Barbarian? Compared to either of those, the Rogue/Fighter would come up ahead. A Rogue/Barbarian with matched levels would probably be the second choice for this sorta thing.

Samb
2009-03-01, 12:16 AM
Hmm EPH isn't core? Oh well
Telling blows..... Is that the feat that let's you add SA to crits? I don't have my books on me but IIRC that is what it is called and it is worth it since you can add SA without flanking or coming out of hide. With a kurki and keen edge or improved crit has a 15-20 threat range which is every 4th hit. I will have disagree with you on telling blows
usefulness. Are you complaining that it is "only" 25% chance!? I mean how greedy can you get?

I personally use spring attack a lot. I don't know why your DM throws at you but I have to survive beasts that hit for 150+ in one full attack and getting away after I land a SA. If your DM likes to go easy on you then skip spring attack because it is useless against monsters that don't know how to proporly kill PCs.

Deadly precision isn't that great until later. I can concede that, but nothing feels better then rolling a bunch of d6s and not having a single 1.

BTW I don't ever use TWF simpily because all the feats needed to support it. If I am about the money shot, hit and run, and skill monkey. I can respect TWF rogues for their commitment though, but like you said hit and run and TWf just don't mix. Hence, why I felt he should clarify what type of rogue he wanted.

Myrmex
2009-03-01, 12:41 AM
Ooh, barbarian is also a slick choice. More skill points. Again, running into multiclass penalties. Thanks for pointing that out, Tehnar. I don't know if the DM is scrapping those or not.

One thing getting proficiency with that dwarven double weapon is that weapon focus will apply to both ends, and be doing slightly more damage than dual wielding shortswords.


They are both light weapons which will bring your TWF penalties down to -2.

You just need a light weapon in your offhand to lower the penalties to -2. Since it's dwarf, picking up MWP with all weapons gives you dwarven waraxe, which is a 1d10 one handed weapon. Normally not worth an EWP for the slight damage increase, but in core, I think it's alright.

Temp.
2009-03-01, 12:44 AM
BTW I don't ever use TWF simpily because all the feats needed to support it. If I am about the money shot, hit and run, and skill monkey. I can respect TWF rogues for their commitment though, but like you said hit and run and TWf just don't mix. Hence, why I felt he should clarify what type of rogue he wanted.

Huh? Spring Attack needs 3 feats; two are rubbish, one is kinda-sorta worth one feat. Two-Weapon Fighting needs 3 feats, each one gives an extra chance for sneak attack damage.


Are you complaining that it is "only" 25% chance!? I mean how greedy can you get?
I don't see how not wanting to lose 75% of your damage output is "greedy" at all. If you're Spring Attacking around, doing inconsequecial damage because you don't want to flank, I think the party would typically be better off keeping its skillmonkey safe off in the shadows or something.

And if you're having trouble getting into full attack position and surviving, you might want to check out Staggering Strike in Complete Adventurer and any one of the defenses provided by the UMD skill.

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 12:54 AM
Hmm EPH isn't core? Oh well
Telling blows..... Is that the feat that let's you add SA to crits? I don't have my books on me but IIRC that is what it is called and it is worth it since you can add SA without flanking or coming out of hide. With a kurki and keen edge or improved crit has a 15-20 threat range which is every 4th hit. I will have disagree with you on telling blows
usefulness. Are you complaining that it is "only" 25% chance!? I mean how greedy can you get?


Yea, thats exactly what Telling Blow does. And no, asking for more than 25% is not being greedy. Its being practical. At low levels, if you aren't flanking, you are doing it wrong. At high levels, if you aren't Improved Invis or Blinking, you are doming it wrong. Both of those things are easy to do or get at their respective levels, and worth whatever investment you have to make to get them. Both give 100% chance to deliver SA in almost all situations. Like I said in my post, the only time Telling Blow would help you is when you are using ranged combat from more than 30' away or when you are facing something with concealment that you can't defeat (like fog). Otherwise you you should always get SA. Think about it...your damage is SO low without SA, that if you had 4 attacks, you'd pretty much be better moving to tumble into flanking with an ally to get 1 attack with SA than attacking 4 times without flank and hoping you proc your 25% chance. If you have more than 4 attacks, you are above ~level 13-14 and you should be using one of those golden methods to garuntee your SA delivery.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-01, 02:58 AM
If you are going to splash FIghter, go 4 levels. This will bring your total BAB up to +16, for the extra iterative attack. It also nets you three bonus feats, like TWF, Combat Expertise, and Improved Feint (so you can apply sneak attack dice more frequently).

Draz74
2009-03-01, 03:02 AM
From personal experience last year I can recommend playing a Dwarf Rogue with a Fighter dip in a Core-Only game. It was fun and I certainly wasn't underpowered, though that might have been largely because I rolled very nice ability scores.

My fellow used TWF with a Spiked Shield on one side and a Dwarven Waraxe on the other, with Improved Shield Bash to keep his shield useful. And Sneak Attack to make the TWF worthwhile, of course.

BobVosh
2009-03-01, 03:37 AM
I recommend fighter, simply for times you need to get full cover. Just keep a Tower sheild on your back, pull it when ya need that love. Also feats + BAB for a little splash isn't terrible.

Barbie is always good, espically if you have a low strength as you mentioned. Unfortunatly extra rage is CW so you can't get it, but even 1/day will help you kill the few things with extra AC that you need to hit.

As everyone has said, a little splash makes rogue much better.

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-01, 11:57 AM
If you go fighter, consider the ACF in Drow of the Underdark for fighters. You lose medium and heavy armor prof, Tower shield prof, but you add your dexterity as a damage on flat footed enemies. Maybe can be useful for you.

Edit: ignore, core only. :smallredface:

Kroy
2009-03-01, 12:30 PM
If you go fighter, consider the ACF in Drow of the Underdark for fighters. You lose medium and heavy armor prof, Tower shield prof, but you add your dexterity as a damage on flat footed enemies. Maybe can be useful for you.

Does anyone read the OP or tittle? CORE ONLY!!

Advocate
2009-03-01, 01:04 PM
Core only, Fighter 1 might be worth it to get your TWF stuff up faster, since you can't just use PTWF, and Rogue 20 doesn't give you anything. Otherwise no. You can't get Wraithstrike, so attacking at -15 just means miss miss miss, therefore 16 BAB is pointless. Even if you're going the flask route, -15 to hit will still mess with you.

Samb
2009-03-01, 04:39 PM
I'm not going into a debate as to how good spring attack is. I like to be defensive and elusive, and I do sacrifice offense for it. I never denied that. Please the fact that I needed it to get elocator.

Also EPH is OGC and is on SDR. I think that qualifies as "core". If so you can get psi warrior dips for another two feats and get powers to make up for the lose in skills.

Advocate
2009-03-01, 04:52 PM
Spring Attack = get 5' stepped and full attacked anyways, while only doing 1 attack instead of oh... 7 or so, and thereby being automatically irrelevant.

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 05:00 PM
SRD =! Core

Core = PHB, DMG, MM. The 3 books that come in the "core set" package with the sneato book sleave. Oh, and they also say CORE RULEBOOK on the front cover.

SRD is just a bunch of junk WotC decided to make OGL to stimulate 3rd party material production.

elonin
2009-03-01, 05:02 PM
Ranger is the way to go here esp if you can get the dm to waive the multi class penalties. I'd probibly go for 2 for the free effective feat.

Curmudgeon
2009-03-01, 05:20 PM
All bad feats. Deadly Prescision is an increase of what, .16 damage per die of SA. Actually +.42 per die, or about +.21 per Rogue level, but it's still a bad feat compared to Craven at +1 damage per character level.

Telling Blows is typically bad for a rogue. Critting is typically bad for a rogue. This is contrary to popular belief, but if you look on a core rogue what exactly gets multiplied? +str bonus and base weapon damage. Thats it. SA is never multiplied on a crit. No, sneak attack dice are never multiplied on a critical hit. Craven provides a constant bonus, so that damage is multiplied. A keen rapier is a good Rogue weapon in any case, and using it with Telling Blow is statistically worthwhile to cover the cases where you don't have a flanking partner -- pretty much the first attack against every foe, because your higher initiative means you'll typically move before the flanking buddy.
Spring Attack is a trap. It requires 2 bad feats and using it cuts down on your damage to a point where you might as well not even be in the battle. While Spring Attack is generally a bad investment, it's worthwhile if you're leveraging a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer -- at that point Spring Attack only costs one extra feat. Neither are worth the feat investments on their own, but together they're a winning proposition. You use Spring Attack to get into position, and Hide in Plain Sight to Hide while doing so, guaranteeing sneak attack damage each time. Then Spring away and Hide again, acquiring cover from the foe you attacked so they can't charge you. Your damage with sneak attack is more than the foe can deliver with a single non-charge attack even if somebody throws Glitterdust your way. Repeat until dead. This is an effective strategy against any enemy that deals too much damage to go toe-to-toe with.

EDIT: Deadly Precision, Telling Blow, and Craven are getting off-topic, because they don't meet the OP's core-only criterion. But Spring Attack and Shadowdancer are core content. Taken together they provide an effective combat option for a Rogue who doesn't have a reliable flanking partner. A Fighter dip can help you get the four feat requirements faster but is going to hurt in skills. You can get Jump and Climb; that's about it. Basically by choosing to dip into Fighter you're choosing to only be good in combat, and not be a skillmonkey.

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 05:37 PM
I figured you would show up soo enough when I made that post.


Actually +.42 per die, or about +.21 per Rogue level, but it's still a bad feat compared to Craven at +1 damage per character level.
Normally yes, but in Core only, neither are available.


No, sneak attack dice are never multiplied on a critical hit. Craven provides a constant bonus, so that damage is multiplied. A keen rapier is a good Rogue weapon in any case, and using it with Telling Blow is statistically worthwhile to cover the cases where you don't have a flanking partner -- pretty much the first attack against every foe, because your higher initiative means you'll typically move before the flanking buddy.

And in a Core game, the character wouldn't have Craven, which means the only thing multiplied on a crit is base weapon damage (and enhancements) + strength modifier. Focusing on critting without Craven is a bad idea. That said, in a Core only game, he wouldn't have Craven OR Telling Blow.


While Spring Attack is generally a bad investment, it's worthwhile if you're leveraging a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer -- at that point Spring Attack only costs one extra feat. Neither are worth the feat investments on their own, but together they're a winning proposition. You use Spring Attack to get into position, and Hide in Plain Sight to Hide while doing so, guaranteeing sneak attack damage each time. Then Spring away and Hide again, acquiring cover from the foe you attacked so they can't charge you. Your damage with sneak attack is more than the foe can deliver with a single non-charge attack even if somebody throws Glitterdust your way. Repeat until dead. This is an effective strategy against any enemy that deals too much damage to go toe-to-toe with.
And while you are dancing in and out of combat slowly weeding down your opposition, your party already won the encounter 5 minutes ago and have already had punch and pie. Since your contribution to the encounter was so minor, you don't get any. Sure, the strat might work out when you are solo, but seldom do rogues actually get to do solo stuff unless its a solo game. A) it takes time away from the other players and B) one botched roll and you've started an encounter you probably can't handle on your own.

Curmudgeon
2009-03-01, 06:08 PM
Sure, the strat might work out when you are solo, but seldom do rogues actually get to do solo stuff unless its a solo game. A) it takes time away from the other players and B) one botched roll and you've started an encounter you probably can't handle on your own. In a big battle there are more enemies than PCs. Having the Rogue tie up the strongest enemy shortens the battle. Plus sneak attack damage delivered every single hit won't make the fight so "slow" that the enemy will try to ignore you.

One botched roll isn't enough to "start" anything. You get multiple chances to Hide and if one enemy Spot check is superior, you've still made it so they can only get in a single regular attack. You then Spring Attack away and repeat, just shifting the locus of battle. If they're adjacent to you at the start you merely Spring to another adjacent square (5' of movement is enough), and the feat prevents them from being able to attack you while you reposition.

only1doug
2009-03-01, 06:32 PM
A Fighter dip can help you get the four feat requirements faster but is going to hurt in skills. You can get Jump and Climb; that's about it. Basically by choosing to dip into Fighter you're choosing to only be good in combat, and not be a skillmonkey.

The OP was considering a 1 Level dip for martial WP's, (including waraxe) not a 4 level diversion, I don't think 1 level will significantly impact his skillmonkey options.

Myrmex
2009-03-01, 07:33 PM
The dwarf went rogue2/ranger2 (DM waived multiclass penalties). Skillmonkeying, so far, has been negligibly affected, the track feat was used in our first session, and TWF is nice. Sort of a bummer missing 1d6 SA on each hit, but the racial bonus dwarves get vs. goblinoids is solid, and he picked up favored enemy: undead, so even if he can't be sneak attacking, he gets some bonus damage. The player is a roleplayer first, optimizer second (or third?), so he actually just picked up undead because he "hates vampires."

He is wielding a medium dwarven waraxe in one hand, and a small one in the other (DM ruled it was cooler than other options, and that he could do it), so weapon focus applies to both weapons while not incurring any more than -2/-2 penalties.

At level four, his damage output against goblinoids (so far the main enemy) is about 20/round, which is quite good. That's if he gets flanking, which isn't hard.

He works out of combat really well with my gnomish beguiler, since he's trap focused and I can give him +2 on checks, and I can talk our way passed guards or what have you. "Oh no sir, we're just locksmiths." That sort of thing.

[edit]
As a dwarf, spring attack isn't that spectacular. If you're going the full attack route, better to move stealthily into position while the enemy is tied up with an animal companion or the fighter, then unleash death.

Telonius
2009-03-01, 09:09 PM
Rogue19/(Anything but Commoner*)1 is a better option than Rogue20. Go for it.

* - and even Commoner works if you take the Chicken-Infested flaw.

Leon
2009-03-02, 04:32 AM
The player is a roleplayer first, optimizer second (or third?)
That's good to hear

Sounds like its turned out well, its good when you can work with the DM to make a idea work

Curmudgeon
2009-03-02, 06:25 AM
The OP was considering a 1 Level dip for martial WP's, (including waraxe) not a 4 level diversion I never suggested 4 levels. I did refer to the 4 feats required for the Shadowdancer + Spring Attack combo, and suggested a dip (number of levels not specified) in Fighter could help achieve that. That combo isn't restricted to choice of race or weapons, so it will work with a dwarf using a waraxe also.

Thespianus
2009-03-02, 07:22 AM
The player is a roleplayer first, optimizer second (or third?), so he actually just picked up undead because he "hates vampires."

My character (Arcane Rogue-type) was severely frightened (aka almost killed) by zombies at his 3rd level (he was very brave, but stupid) so for his third Rogue level, he took the Death's Ruin alternative class feature (Available at level 3 for Rogues in Complete Champion) which enables him to channel his faith/hatred for Undeads into giving them half sneak attack damage when they are normally immune.

It would mesh nicely with the "I hate Vampires"-attitude.

Then again, CC is not Core. I guess I'm just dumb. ;)