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View Full Version : Infighting commencing in 10, 9, 8...



Staven
2009-02-28, 08:38 PM
Ok. A few months ago, I put up a post about A Grayguard and a very evil Dread Necromancer in the same party, forced together by necessity. After all the circumstances were named, the general consensus was that the Grayguard was allowed to defeat the big bad with dubious help. The Dread Necro had no interest in killing the G.G.

Much has changed in the sequel.

Now, the big bad is dead, the Grayguard is now taken his place as the Premier of the country the bad guy ruled. The Dread Necro has started a necropolis and the two have lived in tense peace for a year and a half. That was the timeskip. Now, They are both together again, but this time, not by necessity. No, this time, The Necromancer (who I call Twinky McGamebreaker when his player is not around) is following the Grayguard (me) around because it just suits his interests. I put up with him for two reasons:

1. He hadn't done anything to sufficiently piss me of yet, and more importantly
2. He's broken. I couldn't kill him if I tried, as much as I'd like to. I know if I did, it'd set off ten of his fifty (I'm almost not kidding) fail-saves.

That's when he stole the soul of a good-aligned ninja (not in front of me, but an NPC who reports to another PC who is mine's friend an ally) without a stitch of remorse. Once we left that dungeon crawl, I felt that the best way to get rid of him without instigating conflict was to break one of his magic items and tell him in no uncertain terms to leave, which he, luckily, did.

This was really only a temporary fix. Now what?

Demons_eye
2009-02-28, 10:38 PM
Rally the other players and try to kill him? If I read right the player is not there any more? If not get palor to drop by and shine some light? I dont think it would be that hard to really alot of clerics bent on a holy war, you might een get some palidans or cursaders.

If you dont want to kill him try to get him to leave the plane.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-02-28, 10:50 PM
The last time I had a semi-Paladin in the same party as a mass-murdering CE sociopath, when I found out in-character, I led an investigation, and then hit her in her home with overwhelming force provided by a large number of other Paladins and Clerics. While I knew she was "distracted" by a 14-year old. And I made sure that most of the adventurers in the area knew she was the psycho, so that even if she escaped she'd have a hard time working again.

In other words, casters aren't the only ones who can plan. Make sure that even if you lose, you win. Isn't there a suicide bomb spell somewhere on the Paladin list? Work with a Cleric to get you rez'd if you die, but make sure you take the Necro with you.

Flickerdart
2009-02-28, 10:56 PM
Get Leadership and a Cleric cohort. Start Turning Undead and don't stop until everything is dust. AMF will also help you, since without his minions and his magic, he's just a commoner that you can then kill.

magic9mushroom
2009-03-01, 12:40 AM
Ok. A few months ago, I put up a post about A Grayguard and a very evil Dread Necromancer in the same party, forced together by necessity. After all the circumstances were named, the general consensus was that the Grayguard was allowed to defeat the big bad with dubious help. The Dread Necro had no interest in killing the G.G.

Much has changed in the sequel.

Now, the big bad is dead, the Grayguard is now taken his place as the Premier of the country the bad guy ruled. The Dread Necro has started a necropolis and the two have lived in tense peace for a year and a half. That was the timeskip. Now, They are both together again, but this time, not by necessity. No, this time, The Necromancer (who I call Twinky McGamebreaker when his player is not around) is following the Grayguard (me) around because it just suits his interests. I put up with him for two reasons:

1. He hadn't done anything to sufficiently piss me of yet, and more importantly
2. He's broken. I couldn't kill him if I tried, as much as I'd like to. I know if I did, it'd set off ten of his fifty (I'm almost not kidding) fail-saves.

That's when he stole the soul of a good-aligned ninja (not in front of me, but an NPC who reports to another PC who is mine's friend an ally) without a stitch of remorse. Once we left that dungeon crawl, I felt that the best way to get rid of him without instigating conflict was to break one of his magic items and tell him in no uncertain terms to leave, which he, luckily, did.

This was really only a temporary fix. Now what?

Dread Necromancer, broken?

Details?

Staven
2009-03-01, 09:12 AM
Dread Necromancer, broken?

Details?

Essentially, he's taken enough of the right feats to ensure that he's almost impossible to kill. If I even attack him, this one spell will teleport him back to his home base (the necropolis). The other factor is our DM. He's not a bad DM, he just hates infighting and will put peace in the party above the paladin code. As far as allies within the party, we have a scout and a ninja/assassin. The scout is the designated Butt Monkey (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButtMonkey), but is on my side. The ninja is ultimately not as hostile to the dread necro as I am, but would side with me in a moment if he was forced to pick sides. All party members are level 15. Various NPCs on our side include a monk, a lycanthopic druid, another paladin (not present), and an assassin. This could shape up to be an incredibly destructive battle that derails the plot. That would make the DM angry, and it's likely that one or more PCs on my side (including myself) could die. As for the leadership thing, it could work, but my DM isn't too keen on the whole "there's a good aligned cleric following me around now" thing. Honestly, our DM, as good as he is, actually is the biggest obstacle I face, now that I think about it. I'm not entirely sure what to do.

Sorry for the Wall of Text, btw.

Starscream
2009-03-01, 09:35 AM
Although magic users are powerful, remember that there is one thing that can always bring them down below the power level of the melee characters: Anti Magic Field.

No spells, buffs, magic items, and no fail safes whatsoever. Within such a field a level 20 wizard can be beaten by a level 10 fighter.

Demons_eye
2009-03-01, 09:42 AM
If you can, I remember AMF cuffs that when put on some one AMF around that person for 5ft.

Om
2009-03-01, 09:45 AM
...the Grayguard is now taken his place as the Premier of the country the bad guy ruledSurely this gives you a few advantages?

Advocate
2009-03-01, 10:04 AM
You've just antagonized a caster as a beatstick, in the absolute worst way you possibly could. The imminent and inevitable destruction of anything and everything you've ever known and loved commences in 10... 9... 8...

Basically, it's time for you to consider a new character. One that isn't of the 'Hurk Durk break own stuff' type. Because you brought this on yourself with that stupid move. Even if I were willing to help you in spite of that, there's not much you can do anyways, aside from maybe get your estate in order. Quickly.

Moral of the story: Sunder breaks your own lifespan, in addition to your own stuff. Don't do that.

Flickerdart
2009-03-01, 10:25 AM
Dimensional Anchor would stop him from teleporting out. Not sure if AMF blocks Contingency.

Leon
2009-03-01, 10:51 AM
I was disappointed to see that this thread had nothing to do with the game...

On Topic
Given that your Premier you'll be able to use your position to influence the actions of the varied forces in (whatever) place it is.

There are a number on non lethal containment methods depending on your resources and such.

Flickerdart
2009-03-01, 11:08 AM
Wait, that's right, you're a Premier. Why exactly would your DM have a problem with Leadership? You practically rule a country, for crying out loud. It only makes sense that you'd have a bodyguard and people loyal to you.

Yukitsu
2009-03-01, 11:18 AM
I would question whether or not this would lead to total war. After all, the leader of a necropolis equivalently will have allies. And given a straight war of attrition, one wonders at who would win, the necromancer, or the paladin?

Even given the entire party on your side, starting trouble is likely not in your best interest at this time. Even if you win, you'll be fighting a war that is costing you people and money, while the necromancer merely spends money. Keeping up that shakey peace may be the best solution until you can organize something to level out that disparity somewhat.

Fan
2009-03-01, 11:48 AM
As mentioned you will not win this war. A level 1 undead warrior will OWN a level 1 human paladin, not because the warrior is good, but because most level 1's have difficulty breaking DR 5/ bludgeouning as most NPC paladins come with a long sword, and a steel shield.
Noiw, lets take buffs into account... ALL of the Dread Necro's undead are going to be augmented with at least +4 strength, and dex, and if he was smart he would also have them with MOAR DR as part of creation.
You have turning, which is all fine, and dandy until he starts pulling out awaken undead which gives them class levels, and undead lieutenet which expands his army VASTLY if he can manage to presist them.
I'm sorry, but once you REALLY get into it all of your captured soldiers become XP fonts with Liquid pain, and Agony Xp that are later made into moar soldiers of the damned.
Your rouge becomes next to useless, and well your Grey guard smite isn't going to do much.
Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I think undead made by Dread Necros have turn resistance, so that may be a deterent to your side doing anything worth it.

Dragonmuncher
2009-03-01, 11:55 AM
Definitely sounds like AMF is your friend, here. He might be the leader of a necropolis, but you're a political figure yourself. And his backup spells won't be worth anything in an AMF. The only thing that could hamper you is if he secretly became a lich, and you're probably fine in that regard.

Yukitsu
2009-03-01, 12:05 PM
Definitely sounds like AMF is your friend, here. He might be the leader of a necropolis, but you're a political figure yourself. And his backup spells won't be worth anything in an AMF. The only thing that could hamper you is if he secretly became a lich, and you're probably fine in that regard.

All of his undead will still function in an AMF, and at a macro scale, a localized AMF over a section of the conflict won't be enough to turn the whole war against the dread necro. At least not sufficiently that we shouldn't discuss a lot of alternatives.

Advocate
2009-03-01, 12:23 PM
As mentioned you will not win this war. A level 1 undead warrior will OWN a level 1 human paladin, not because the warrior is good, but because most level 1's have difficulty breaking DR 5/ bludgeouning as most NPC paladins come with a long sword, and a steel shield.
Noiw, lets take buffs into account... ALL of the Dread Necro's undead are going to be augmented with at least +4 strength, and dex, and if he was smart he would also have them with MOAR DR as part of creation.
You have turning, which is all fine, and dandy until he starts pulling out awaken undead which gives them class levels, and undead lieutenet which expands his army VASTLY if he can manage to presist them.
I'm sorry, but once you REALLY get into it all of your captured soldiers become XP fonts with Liquid pain, and Agony Xp that are later made into moar soldiers of the damned.
Your rouge becomes next to useless, and well your Grey guard smite isn't going to do much.
Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I think undead made by Dread Necros have turn resistance, so that may be a deterent to your side doing anything worth it.

And that's just normal skeletons. Bone creatures, which can be created via Create (Greater) Undead just get to keep their class levels and other abilities, while also getting more Dex, immunities, and resistances. Which means every time you lose, you get weaker and he gets stronger.

Also, all his undead have 1d12+6 HP per HD, due to the simple combo of Desecrate + Corpsecrafter + being a DN. So basically, you're fighting against the BBEG I used to very good effect against an entire party of PCs alone. And before you say NPC help, remember what I said about your forces becoming enemy forces. Also, mooks aren't much help anyways.

Note that instances of 'you' in those post refer to the OP, and not the quoted user I'm expanding on.

AMF won't stop his minions. You won't get him in an AMF, because you turned off all your own class features and items, making yourself an easy target for said minions.

Consider for example, a lowly Hydra zombie with 10 heads. It's CR 6... and with the necro stuff, ends up having 10 attacks, each at +20, doing 1d10+8 (and possibly 1d6 cold from Deadly Chill). It does those attacks as an attack action, so being a zombie doesn't interfere. It also gets that much as an AoO, which means you actually have a pretty good chance of being soloed by a mook of much lower level. If you actually get to fight it, it has 250 HP. Have fun.

aje8
2009-03-01, 12:48 PM
heres what you do:

Option 1:

Your a political figure, so get close to him for political negotiations and ask to bring your party and/or Cleric Chohort with as bodyguards. When you get close to him, immediatley active an Antimagic Torc. Now, it's a battle of you+party+cleric vs. whatever undead he had in the room.

Option 2:

Settle it out of game. Talk to the player about perhaps having his Necromancer change alignment after all he has seen. Maybe he had a life-changing experience or maybe ruling a Necorpolisis and dealing with the issues of the his (well, undead but still) people have slowly but surely changed him to good. Once he's good, the issues sort of disappear.

Triaxx
2009-03-01, 01:41 PM
Option 3: Profess that you're tired of the game, and want to move on to something else.

Option 4: Explain to him that his uber-powered Dread Necro is simply making the game not fun to play. If he can't change, then explain you're going to stop playing. And follow through.

Lappy9000
2009-03-01, 02:34 PM
Option 5: Talk to the DM. If you're not the only one who has issues with Twinky McGamebreaker, he's just asking for a DM Smite.

While that may only be half-serious, you should utilize the former options and avoid the infighting if at all possible. It'll end up causing more damage to the game than it's worth, and could jeopardize some friendships in the process.

Demons_eye
2009-03-01, 03:48 PM
As mentioned you will not win this war. A level 1 undead warrior will OWN a level 1 human paladin, not because the warrior is good, but because most level 1's have difficulty breaking DR 5/ bludgeouning as most NPC paladins come with a long sword, and a steel shield.
Noiw, lets take buffs into account... ALL of the Dread Necro's undead are going to be augmented with at least +4 strength, and dex, and if he was smart he would also have them with MOAR DR as part of creation.
You have turning, which is all fine, and dandy until he starts pulling out awaken undead which gives them class levels, and undead lieutenet which expands his army VASTLY if he can manage to presist them.
I'm sorry, but once you REALLY get into it all of your captured soldiers become XP fonts with Liquid pain, and Agony Xp that are later made into moar soldiers of the damned.
Your rouge becomes next to useless, and well your Grey guard smite isn't going to do much.
Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I think undead made by Dread Necros have turn resistance, so that may be a deterent to your side doing anything worth it.


If I was a pally going to fight in a war with undead I would bring something that would over come DR.

RSoP

Fan
2009-03-01, 05:00 PM
Yeah, but that weapon requires GP spending that the pally doesn't have as they are gold starved as is.

Advocate
2009-03-01, 05:07 PM
Yeah, but that weapon requires GP spending that the pally doesn't have as they are gold starved as is.

Well, if we're talking level 1 Paladin vs Warrior 1 skeleton the pally can just get a free club if he knows what to do. The real issue there is given his skill starved nature, he most likely can't even try the Knowledge check to know he needs it.

Doesn't do any good when advancing beyond mook vs mook scale though.

quick_comment
2009-03-01, 05:28 PM
Declare a crusade, get clerics on the front lines turning, espically radiant servants of Pelor. Maybe even get everyone praying for the gods (read: DM) to bless your crusade with a huge area consecrate effect.

Send assassins after the necromancer. Master of death or not, high con poison in his morning coffee will hurt him. Even better, steal his spellbook. And put a temporal stasis trap in his mattress. (Like the mossad did in Operation Wrath of God).

Bomb his fortress with RSoPs. I did this once as part of the battle against the BBEG. As a distraction, while the party snuck into the catacombs beneath his castle to fight him, we distracted the elite guards by having the "Most Holy Air Brigade of the Sun-father" make a paradrop against his fortress. They put on rings of feather fall and dropped from a zeppelin. They did their holy nova of undead death thing, and distracted everyone enough that we could get into the castle without fighting through the tons of undead.

Fan
2009-03-01, 05:54 PM
Your seem to forget that costs MONEY, and lots of it, and by even level 15 that high con damage poison save is almost ALWAYS going to be made if he isn't undead already. Also, all your planning is negated by one thing included in the Strong hold builders guide.... It's called anti life shell on the walls.
For him it's not a big deal with Tomb tainted soul, and his (likely) undeadness.
Suddenly you need a AMF to even enter his stronghold, and that just turns your clerics into BAD fighters, and the pally's become fighters with no bonus feats.

Advocate
2009-03-01, 06:08 PM
Assassins (as in the class) are total jokes when used against any caster, and total jokes when compared to a Rogue of the same level.

olelia
2009-03-01, 06:53 PM
Option Dues Ex Machina: Locate City Bomb Him.

quick_comment
2009-03-01, 07:50 PM
Assassins (as in the class) are total jokes when used against any caster, and total jokes when compared to a Rogue of the same level.

By assassins, I meant "people sent to kill him quietly by means of stealth, poison or underhanded sneakiness" not "people who take a prestiege class which gives access to a low DC ability and some low level spells"

Leon
2009-03-01, 08:07 PM
For the cash strapped level one paladin why buy a 15g sword when there is a 8g Morning star that does dual damage types

dyslexicfaser
2009-03-02, 02:24 AM
At that point, I'd be tempted to just wash my hands of it, turn my Premier over to the DM's side, and make a new character.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 07:34 AM
By assassins, I meant "people sent to kill him quietly by means of stealth, poison or underhanded sneakiness" not "people who take a prestiege class which gives access to a low DC ability and some low level spells"

Ok, Assassin by concept then.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-02, 10:50 AM
By assassins, I meant "people sent to kill him quietly by means of stealth, poison or underhanded sneakiness" not "people who take a prestiege class which gives access to a low DC ability and some low level spells"The problem with assassinating a Dread Necro is that by level 15 they have way too many defenses. Heavy Fortification, Immunity to a butt-load of thing, and most likely they're Necropolitan with Profane Lifesense, so they are Undead(with all that implies in terms of Fort saves) and it is impossible to hide from them. Assassination suddenly requires an Undead Cleric instead of a Rogue.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 11:03 AM
Honestly, the only point of being a Necropolitian is the minor turn resistance, which is easily solved simply by Desecrating and Unhallowing everything. Bone creatures are cheaper and better in every other way.

Andras
2009-03-02, 11:15 AM
Honestly, the only point of being a Necropolitian is the minor turn resistance, which is easily solved simply by Desecrating and Unhallowing everything. Bone creatures are cheaper and better in every other way.

Yes, assuming you can trust anything enough at that point to use Create Greater Undead on you and not just turn you into their minion...which is quite an assumption if you're an evil necromancer.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-02, 11:17 AM
Honestly, the only point of being a Necropolitian is the minor turn resistance, which is easily solved simply by Desecrating and Unhallowing everything. Bone creatures are cheaper and better in every other way.The specific type of undead monster doesn't matter, what matters is that Undead Monsters get Undead Monster feats, some of which are just too good. Combine that with the laundry-list of immunities and protections that Undead get, and it suddenly becomes very hard to take him down.

kalt
2009-03-02, 11:47 AM
Can you give us a bit better idea of the build makeup of this Dread Necromancer? By 15th level a Dread Necromancer is going to be strong, but not crazy so.

Alleine
2009-03-02, 01:56 PM
Being a Necropolitan is all well and good, but unless he wants to shell out for a revive, he can't become a lich. Necropolitans are not humanoids, and the lich entry says it can only be applied to humanoids.

In order to help fight this guy, we need to know more than "He's a DN and I'll die if I touch him". Specifics are required. Although in order to protect against his normal DN abilities all you really need is protection from death effects and immunity to level drain.
There are some spells, probably in the SpC that will be helpful. IIRC, one effectively turns you into an undead without actually being undead, and another treats an undead as if it were alive, effectively negating all those tasty bonuses they get.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 02:13 PM
Yes, assuming you can trust anything enough at that point to use Create Greater Undead on you and not just turn you into their minion...which is quite an assumption if you're an evil necromancer.

Who says you have to trust others? You're high enough level for Craft Contingent Spell. Kill yourself, and activate Contingency automatically. Done.

Also, who says you actually want to be a Lich? It's not as if that is an actually worthwhile template that doesn't double whammy you hard for daring to take it... oh wait...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-02, 02:53 PM
Being a Necropolitan is all well and good, but unless he wants to shell out for a revive, he can't become a lich. Necropolitans are not humanoids, and the lich entry says it can only be applied to humanoids.25,000 at level 19. That's really worth worrying over in your games? And besides, Lichification may or may not be any more useful than just being straight undead.
Also, who says you actually want to be a Lich? It's not as if that is an actually worthwhile template that doesn't double whammy you hard for daring to take it... oh wait...It might be worth it. The DN is a great class, but their capstone is poorly worded:
Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and
becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery.All it actually says is that you gain the Undead type and Phylactary. Whether you gain any of the other benefits/costs of being a Lich is up to the DM to try to interpret. IMHO, it's meant to give you the Lich template in it's entirety, but without the LA(you paid for that by taking 20 levels of a class that runs out of features around 8), but it's up to the DM because of how vague it is.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 03:22 PM
I would agree with you. Of course, it could also cost you two casting levels and 120k. It gives you CWI for the expressed purpose of making the thing, which implies at least the 120k for bleh part is in.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-02, 03:34 PM
I would agree with you. Of course, it could also cost you two casting levels and 120k. It gives you CWI for the expressed purpose of making the thing, which implies at least the 120k for bleh part is in.Except that it says you don't spend anything making the Phylactary(final line of the section I quoted). Like I said, this comes down to DM call, but I think it was supposed to remove the "suck" parts of the Lich template.