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Zergrusheddie
2009-03-01, 07:07 PM
Say a level 15 Druid Shapes into a Tiger. Because of the Druid's higher BAB, does the Druid gain extra attacks with the 'primary' Natural Attack or are they stuck with what the form allows?
Also, does a Druid gain the benefits of feats from that Animal Form?

If it weren't for this forum, I would be an even bigger newbie...
-Eddie

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-01, 07:10 PM
If you want to make it really ccomplicated, take a level of Monk. Even when I ran a Druid, I never bothered trying to figure this out.

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 07:11 PM
Nope, things with natural attacks don't get itteratives except in a couple circumstances. Unfortunately, being a wildshaping druid isn't one of the,

So, as a druid, your AB would be your BAB (without WS) + Str of your new form + any other modifiers that may apply.

Parvum
2009-03-01, 07:13 PM
You don't get iterative natural attacks. You can attack with all of your natural weapons as a full round action with a penalty (-5 without the feat Multiattack, -2 with). This means you can only make one attack/weapon, at your highest bonus minus the penalty. Applies if you have one bite, two claws and one bite, or six hundred and seventy three tentacles. By Rules As Written.

Kind of expected a ninja on that one. Seven, actually. Now I'm disappointed. While I'm complaining, I might as well point out that you don't get the feats of the animal. You have a few limitations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) on your wildshape abilities.

Eldariel
2009-03-01, 07:16 PM
But you can use naturals as secondary and unarmeds + iteratives as primary attacks provided that you have the Monk Unarmed Strike-ability. Also, Rapidstrike-feats from Draconomicon can be used for natural iteratives (used to great effect in the "King of Smack" Psy War build). But yea, by default, no; no iteratives on natural attacks. Good news is that a Dire Tiger has 5 natural attacks (3 basic + 2 rake when pouncing or grappling, which is basically always).

Lycanthromancer
2009-03-01, 07:36 PM
As stated before, you cannot get iteratives on natural attacks without extenuating circumstances.

There are some feats (Rapidstrike) that allow you to do so.

You can make a full unarmed attack and tack all of your natural attacks onto the end at a -5 to hit (or -2 with Multiattack) and a maximum of 1/2 your Str bonus. Unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike or have a level in monk, however, all of your unarmed attacks will provoke AoOs (though if you have greater reach than the creature you're attacking, or have full concealment, they can't actually make the AoO).

You can also use manufactured weapons, assuming that you're either in a form that has prehensile fingers/toes, or you use a special weapon (such as a tail-scythe). You can make a full attack and append your natural attacks onto the end, identically to how you'd use unarmed strikes. However, you cannot use the natural attacks of any limbs that you used to make manufactured weapon attacks with, or that are being used to hold something. For instance, if you were using your dire ape form, wielding, say, a scimitar and a shield, you could only make one bite attack following your scimitar attack(s), since your hands are carrying the scimitar and shield (something similar applies to unarmed attacks, BTW).

Keld Denar
2009-03-01, 07:43 PM
Thats when the non-standard weapons from Complete Scoundrel are so awesome. You make all of your iterative attacks with a weighted cloak or similar weapon, leaving you open to claw claw bite gore rend rake rake!

Talya
2009-03-01, 07:45 PM
And yes, sometimes it is not a bad idea for a druid to dip a level of monk. (And a gestalt druid//monk combination can be awesome.)

Even the monk has occasional flashes of usefulness.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-01, 11:17 PM
And yes, sometimes it is not a bad idea for a druid to dip a level of monk. (And a gestalt druid//monk combination can be awesome.)

Even the monk has occasional flashes of usefulness.Druid 20//Monk 1/Barb 1/Warblade 3/Warshaper 5/Nature's Warrior 3/Warblade 7.

Yes, the fluff is rough, but it is oh so good. Mostly d12 HD and 19 BAB along with 8th level maneuvers and shapeshift-based abilities, plus Wis-to-AC and Rage just makes other's cry. And the best part? You only needed one level of Monk. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2009-03-02, 01:11 AM
Druid20//Monk2/PsyWar18

You know whats better than being a Large Bear?

Being a Gargantuan Bear!

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-03-02, 08:59 AM
why Psywar? They only have d8 HD and 3/4 BaB, why not just go psion?

Eloel
2009-03-02, 09:17 AM
why Psywar? They only have d8 HD and 3/4 BaB, why not just go psion?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm

This. 9PP for +2 size for 10minutes/level (3 hours at L18)?
Yes please for anyone in melee.

Zergrusheddie
2009-03-03, 12:56 AM
What about Haste and the like?...

Teron
2009-03-03, 03:15 AM
You don't get iterative natural attacks. You can attack with all of your natural weapons as a full round action with a penalty (-5 without the feat Multiattack, -2 with). This means you can only make one attack/weapon, at your highest bonus minus the penalty. Applies if you have one bite, two claws and one bite, or six hundred and seventy three tentacles. By Rules As Written.
You don't take a penalty on attacks with the form's primary natural weapon(s). That's always the first one listed in the stat block, with the higher attack bonus. Also note that the primary gets your full strength bonus to damage (or 1,5 times your strength bonus if you have a single natural attack) while others get half your strength bonus. These bonuses and penalties remain constant for any given weapon regardless of whether you're using it for a standard or full attack.

Of your examples, the single bite would have no penalty and 1,5 strength, while the ridiculous number of tentacles would have no penalty and full strength. In the claw/claw/bite routine, the bite would probably take the penalty and half strength while the claws get the full bonuses, as is standard for most creatures with those natural weapons. See the tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tiger.htm) stats for an example.

Thurbane
2009-03-03, 09:42 PM
Oddly enough, a Druid's Animal Companion can get iterative attacks, whilst the Druid himself, in animal form, cannot. Nor can an animal he Awakens...seems very counter-intuitive to me. :smallconfused:

Person_Man
2009-03-04, 10:06 AM
I for one would never allow a king-fu panda Monk/Druid to gain unarmed attacks when Wildshaped. When you take an alternate form, you lose the natural attacks of that form, and gain the natural attacks of your new form. Thus you lose the unarmed strikes of your humanoid form, and gain the natural attacks of your bear form (or whatever).

Even if by RAW I'm wrong (though I don't think I am), it'd still be utterly ridiculous to describe.

Darrin
2009-03-04, 10:30 AM
I for one would never allow a king-fu panda Monk/Druid to gain unarmed attacks when Wildshaped. When you take an alternate form, you lose the natural attacks of that form, and gain the natural attacks of your new form. Thus you lose the unarmed strikes of your humanoid form, and gain the natural attacks of your bear form (or whatever).

Even if by RAW I'm wrong (though I don't think I am), it'd still be utterly ridiculous to describe.

By RAW, you're wrong. From the SRD:

"The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarianís rage class feature)."

Monks get their unarmed strike as a class ability at 1st level. They retain this when wildshaped or in an alternate form. Thus, a kung fu panda would get his normal iterative unarmed strikes, and could add all his new natural attacks as secondary attacks at a -5 penalty. Likewise, any awakened animal or any creature that picks up a non-natural attack via class levels/magic items/grafts/etc. would be able to get a similar attack progression.

We've argued about this before, and I'm still mystified why some people are so against allowing unarmed strikes while wildshaped. We already know druids are horribly broken, how does giving them unarmed strikes while wildshaped make them any worse so? At the very least, it allows some monks to pull themselves up from the Bog of Eternal Mediocrity for a few hours a day.

Starbuck_II
2009-03-04, 10:59 AM
What about Haste and the like?...

Nope. Haste affects weapons you are holding: you don't hold your teeth or your claw when attacking (rules lawyers might argue they could, but that is iffy even for them).

So nope.

monty
2009-03-04, 11:58 AM
I for one would never allow a king-fu panda Monk/Druid to gain unarmed attacks when Wildshaped. When you take an alternate form, you lose the natural attacks of that form, and gain the natural attacks of your new form. Thus you lose the unarmed strikes of your humanoid form, and gain the natural attacks of your bear form (or whatever).

Even if by RAW I'm wrong (though I don't think I am), it'd still be utterly ridiculous to describe.

But all creatures have an unarmed attack. So you lose the unarmed attack of your normal form, and gain the unarmed attack of your animal form, and since both IUS and your extra unarmed damage come from class levels, you keep them. So you're a bear that punches people instead of clawing them.

Gorbash
2009-03-04, 12:04 PM
Also, does a Druid gain the benefits of feats from that Animal Form?

No, only racial feats, which are Alertness and some other nonsense. So, that means no for Improved Natural Attack feats.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-04, 12:43 PM
At the very least, it allows some monks to pull themselves up from the Bog of Eternal Mediocrity for a few hours a day.

A monk couldn't find its way to the Bog of Eternal Mediocrity, with a map, compass and a Diviner showing him the way. Though i do like the idea of Bears beating people senseless with their fists. Could you take the spell casting off of druid and have a decent melee class, What would I add to replace it.

Darrin
2009-03-04, 02:44 PM
A monk couldn't find its way to the Bog of Eternal Mediocrity, with a map, compass and a Diviner showing him the way. Though i do like the idea of Bears beating people senseless with their fists. Could you take the spell casting off of druid and have a decent melee class, What would I add to replace it.

There are already wildshape variants for Monk (Dragon #324) and Ranger (Unearthed Arcana p. 58). Of the two, the Simple Ranger is probably the scariest: A Simple Ranger 6/Master of Many Forms 6 can change into a 24-headed cryohydra at ECL 12.