OOTS #634 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[SpeakerftDead]

Didn't see that coming...

[Mad Mask]

At last, Varsuviuus' prophecy is realising... Or is this just a trick to distract us from the real thing ?

[VampireRot]

I shall be the first to say, THE FOUR WORDS!!!!!!!

[Klev]

sad very sad... indeed four words for all the wrong reasons...

Nor for his/her family but for his/her arrogance and pride V choose the dark side...

[Rogue 7]

Well, if you count "I...I" as two words, then it counts. And assuming that it does, all the wrong reasons indeed.

[memnarch]

At last, Varsuviuus' prophecy is realising... Or is this just a trick to distract us from the real thing ?

Certainly seems like "Ultimate Arcane Power" to me.

[Xyron]

Fitting title. Holy crap

[Sebastian]

What a tweest!!! :smallbiggrin:

Great comic.

[Sunday]

Oh dear. This is going to end in tears, I just know it.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Awesome. Can't wait for the next strip. It will certainly be epic!

[Mad Mask]

Certainly seems like "Ultimate Arcane Power" to me.

Maybe not. Richard Burlew is well known for playing tricks with his readers, and there are certainly more "ultimate" arcane powers in the OotS world.

[Lira]

Oh my gods, I can't believe this is finally happening! :smallbiggrin:

[Prince_Selm]

If this was a movie, this would be the part where everyone is yelling

"NO NO NO DON'T DO IT!"

at the screen.

[Ladorak]

Wow, I got goose bumps, outstanding!

[T-O-E]

Well, that's the end of that.

[Assassin89]

Looks like the wrong reasons are that V would have to avoid admitting that his current arcane power is insufficient. This is primarily a matter of pride.

[Nevitan]

:smalleek::smallfrown:
But....
Wow..
dang, that's... terrible. .


If this was a movie, this would be the part where everyone is yelling

"NO NO NO DON'T DO IT!"

at the screen.

What do you mean "if this was a movie" I was doing that anyway :smallfrown:

[Estelindis]

The way of dealing with the problem that the fiends proposed *is* circuitous and not guaranteed to succeed. But it was an option. Sorry to see Vaarsuvius making this decision when it wasn't the only way... Yet, in a sense, I'm not sorry, because it's pretty serious character development. Mistakes often fuel the most interesting stories.

PS: The sad little expression on V's face as s/he reaches out to touch the orb in just horrible. It's like s/he is well aware that hir motivations are not all that pure at the moment of the choice, and that pride is playing a large part in the decision - but that can't stop hir.

[Xanedan]

"Woah" haha

Imps, in my head, will forever have their screechy high pitched voice replaced with Keanu's tone.

[Klev]

Maybe not. Richard Burlew is well known for playing tricks with his readers, and there are certainly more "ultimate" arcane powers in the OotS world.
Perhaps, but look at the title of the comic, and the whole meaning. Until now I didn't think it would be the prophecy because saving your own family is a very good reason, but after this...

IT is the four words in a very strong (and one of the greatest) page. If it wasn't than it would be quite a waste of a good storytelling.

[Wildrose]

Oh, V :smallfrown: This is the first time I've ever been really disappointed in him/her. Everything else has been done for other people, more or less, but this was the selfish choice. It's not about saving V's partner and children any more, it's about not failing. This makes me very sad.

Great comic, Rich!

[GoC]

Nooooooo!!!!!!
V!

[North]

Tough choice but Id go with personal determination myself.

[Aris Katsaris]

I don't see any four words that had any effect whatsoever here. It was by touching the globe that V earned the power. If she had stayed silent and touched it, it'd still be the same.

There are no four words here.

[Jonathan327]

Up there for top updates ever. Wow.

[rmromero]

I just hope V makes it to Padme in time.

Whoops, wrong storyline.

[Nevrmore]

That's a pretty stupid way to shoehorn the whole "for all the wrong reasons" part of the prophecy in at the last minute. Anyone with common sense could see that it's not a matter of V's pride being tarnished, it's a matter of time; One solution will immediately grant him the power he needs to fend off the dragon. The other is a ridiculously circuitous plan that will most assuredly take longer than it has to. If I were in V's shoes I would have called the three fiends idiots for even suggesting the alternative.

[Wonton]

Hmmmm... this still doesn't seem like "all the wrong reasons" to me... he was pressured and running out of time... and even if you say he's doing it because of his own pride, that's still not "all the wrong reasons", as he will save his family in the process...

It just doesn't feel to me like this is the prophecy being fulfilled. :smallconfused:

[Aethir]

I soooooo cannot wait to see how this turns out for V.

Though, I am intrigued at the other option they presented, and the fact that V wouldn't accept the need to admit failure if it meant nobody goes into fiend custody later.

[Haruki-kun]

Doesn't look good. :smallfrown:

If Elan's prophecy was that the story would have a happy ending for him... then maybe V's about to get the sad one....

[Occasional Sage]

Well, that was certainly the obvious course for the plot to take. I wasn't expecting that. So, anybody have ideas for why we have a pink-out here?

I have some niggling doubts about this being the fulfillment of the prophecy, though, since stutters and hesitations shouldn't really count as extra words.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next strip already.

[Squirrel_Token]

Whoa.

(I didn't know Matrix references were back in :D)

[Corvuus]

my favorite part of this strip is the fact that the 3 'fiends' for all their 'bumbling' and such, are actually quite sneaky and evil.

In the previous strip, the fiends said that they didn't know V or couldn't careless, it was just a proof of concept necessary and he just 'happened' to be there.

The flying demon guy did submit an application for V so they would know details of 'elf, wizard' and various other points but the whole point (at least to me in terms of storytelling) of the fiends doing the pill and 'putting the car salesman pressure' on is that they *DO* know V. They know about the Azure City fleet, the discussion that they had, they know 'it all'. V isn't a random pick.

They know V's weakness. That he would have to admit that his spellcasting wasn't good enough and that he failed (something which he has said in previous strip but the fiends 'shouldn't' know about.) an

The fact that the 'verbal contract' is 'outlined' and various other parts makes me feel that the fiends are getting exactly what they want and exactly from 'who' they want it from.

C

[Aris Katsaris]

That's a pretty stupid way to shoehorn the whole "for all the wrong reasons" part of the prophecy in at the last minute. Anyone with common sense could see that it's not a matter of V's pride being tarnished, it's a matter of time;

What are you talking about? It might have been a matter of time if YOU were in V's place, and just as well be a matter of pride for V himself.

Right now it seems as if V's reasons are pride.

But I still claim Kubota's death to be the four words for all the wrong reasons.

[Collin152]

Hmmmm... this still doesn't seem like "all the wrong reasons" to me... he was pressured and running out of time... and even if you say he's doing it because of his own pride, that's still not "all the wrong reasons", as he will save his family in the process...

It just doesn't feel to me like this is the prophecy being fulfilled. :smallconfused:

Yes, but see also: Belkar and Haley's prophecies. Not exactly the perfectest matches. At first.

[BRC]

Alright, THAT is nasty. At first it looked like the Soul-splice was merely a "Lesser of two evils" option. Something V was essentially forced into. But this comic shows V's pride, when given the choice to succeed on his/her own, but in a manner that required giving fiends a time-share on his/her soul. Or the choice to succeed without that, but in a way that would force V to admit weakness. Even upon being told flat-out that it's a choice between Values and Pride, V still chooses pride...

[Mushroom Ninja]

I thought something like this might happen.

[Greep]

Well.. you know it's not just pride. I mean, cutting off your own head is a bit harder than you'd think, even if you know you'll be raised. Not to mention betting your life that a lawful creature wouldn't commit one chaotic act is pretty much pushing it. V's simply making darned sure that no matter what he stops the dragon.

[timbot]

Mr. Burlew…you are quite possibly the best storyteller I have ever known. This comic is just another reminder. I cannot begin to express my respect for your storytelling abilities. EVEN THE TITLES ARE GREAT! Now I must take my leave and run screaming away from any place close to where V will be. I anxiously await the next installment in this fantastic series (one of only three webcomics I follow).

[chiasaur11]

Man, that was dumb of V.
The other solution is very clever though.

[Kish]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98458 I thought so.

[Greep]

Oh and who knew ultimate power would be pink?

[Trixie]

I wonder if someone proposed that route of saving the children before.

To be fair - that plan had almost 0% chance of succeeding.

By the way - if V knows a wizard who is capable of defeating a CR 20 Dragon with a single spell (which is almost certainly non-core, as no 9th level spells from core fit) then why this wizard isn't saving the world along with OotS? Or helping V find Haley, even indirectly?

Poor, little Dragon, we hardly knew ye :smallsigh:

[NotNale]

How about these four words?

That ... was ... absolutely ... awesome.


I'm not going to judge V too harshly here -- as an earlier poster noted, the fiend's suggestion is convoluted, time-consuming, and admittedly may lead to the death of hirs children, though not to necromancy. Probably. As a father, I'm not sure I'd take that chance, even in a world where resurrection was a reality.


But the awesomeness of the whole thing lies in the exploitation of V's weakness and hir agony over the choice despite it's inevitability. It's a perfect "tragic flaw" -- an integral part of the character, a trait without which V would not be V, but the trait that leads him inevitably to his downfall. Very good storytelling.

[MSK]

I love how the fiends all jump to the same conclusion after "you could kill yourself". The exact same incredibly convoluted plan.

[SandyCaesar]

I think "all the wrong reasons" refers to the fact that V is refusing to make the choice not because (s)he is trying to save the family, but rather out of pride. V's decision might or might not have been the same, but it was done for the wrong reason--i.e., a need for personal vindication, as opposed to a true desire to save the family.

[Elfey]

Alright, THAT is nasty. At first it looked like the Soul-splice was merely a "Lesser of two evils" option. Something V was essentially forced into. But this comic shows V's pride, when given the choice to succeed on his/her own, but in a manner that required giving fiends a time-share on his/her soul. Or the choice to succeed without that, but in a way that would force V to admit weakness. Even upon being told flat-out that it's a choice between Values and Pride, V still chooses pride...

Damn Skippy. V is a tragic and flawed character. Smart, powerful but the hubris that comes with that and the inability to ask for help make it so that V had to do this.

I do hope has enough self awareness to know these reasons suck and may also fulfill the prophesy. But if you look it doesn't seem like V knows that or may even care. V's PTSD from the battle and V's overwhelming desire for power and the protection of V's family from the dragon triumphs everything. The biggest issue here is what this means for the rest.

I think beyond saving the family V may try and atone or use the power for the necessary acts of saving the world.

No Divine magic, so rezzing Roy won't happen. But bringing the order back together I think will happen in the next few strips along with setting off very specific plot events (making of items, killing of important npcs, etc) that allow the order to do their mission again.

[Andre Fairchilde]

oh no... :smalleek:

[Evaine]

Oh man. I can't believe he/she did it. I just know this is going to come back and bite the Order hard...:smallfrown:

[Friv]

I think "all the wrong reasons" refers to the fact that V is refusing to make the choice not because (s)he is trying to save the family, but rather out of pride. V's decision might or might not have been the same, but it was done for the wrong reason--i.e., a need for personal vindication, as opposed to a true desire to save the family.

I second this.

From a family point of view, V is absolutely making the right choice (although from a Good/Evil point of view, the amount of damage that the three fiends could do by taking over V at the right moments is way more than his kids are worth).

However, he's not doing it because the other plan is risky, or because he doesn't trust the imp. He's doing it because of his pride.

All the wrong reasons.

[dyslexicfaser]

True, I imagine Super-V won't have any trouble getting Haley and the rest of the band back together... if the Splice works correctly, demons being somewhat treacherous like that.

And then, all hail Super-V, who has saved the day! Hurrah! And only s/he knows that it all could have gone down another way.

[Greep]

oh and as a little tid-bit, it's at the exact right time because the 4,3,2,1 countdown is needed for dramatic effect.

[Lemming]

Wow. Who knew evil arcane magic was so...pink. I suspected that "Disintegrate. Gust of wind." weren't the words, but I honestly didn't expect ultimate arcane power so soon. Very well done. Bravo.

[RosesOnConcrete]

Hoooooo, baby. This is gonna be gooooooooooooooooooood.

Giant, you are a god among storytellers.

And I love that apparently, ultimate arcane power is the same color as Pepto-Bismol.

[SteveMB]

I'm presuming the fact that Vaarsuvius took the deal even knowing that there was a possible alternative is going to help the IFCC get their claws deeper into h** (why else would they mention it?) :smalleek:

[DrakebloodIV]

If this story arc ends without V's gender being exposed, I'm gonna have to punch the Giant in the face.

[RMS Oceanic]

...wow.

It'll be debated until the comic's over, but I'm certain that this is the four words. And V is painted as a classical tragic hero, with the seeds of h** own downfall. This has been an excellent arc so far.

Also, you have it numbered as #633 instead of #634 on the comic itself.

[DrakebloodIV]

Wow. Who knew evil arcane magic was so...pink. I suspected that "Disintegrate. Gust of wind." weren't the words, but I honestly didn't expect ultimate arcane power so soon. Very well done. Bravo.

Perhaps it will become a recurring thing, with each progressive series of four words making V more powerful and perverting their soul.

[CapedLuigiYoshi]

...Did anyone think of that plan before this comic?

[silversaraph]

I personally feel that V is either going to be killed while (s)he saves his/her adopted kids, or kills him/herself right after in anticipation of the pain.

either way, epic comic tonight, rich.


9 out of five stars!

Then again, I kind of was hoping that (s)he'd kill him/herself so that it would technically count that (s)he tranced.

[KIDS]

So this is it. RIP Varsuvius :(

Other setbacks for the party were significant, but even Roy's death is heroic and reversible. With V falling to the dark side, that's the most serious threat to the group so far I'd say.
Then again, maybe the dragon will activate the antimagic field again and own V through all three Splices? Heh, that's the power of broken spells.

Regardless, splendidly done Giant. I love the drawing of Aarindarius flying and fighting the dragon while still totally concentrated at his book. LOL!

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Wow. Well played by the fiends. They just turned V's actions from morally justifiable to evil, just like that.

Well done Mr. Burlew.

[bluedolphin359]

This…is…insane

I already expected that V would take the deal, but for the fiends to outline one of the other course of actions and to still take the deal, that was an outcome I never expected.

On the plus side, we'll get to see what V will be like with four souls.

On the other side, we get to see evil take control of a gate (probably).

[CrimsonAngel]

Now we can end all the discussions about the four words. :smallbiggrin:

[Quorothorn]

Well, that was certainly the obvious course for the plot to take. I wasn't expecting that. So, anybody have ideas for why we have a pink-out here?

I have some niggling doubts about this being the fulfillment of the prophecy, though, since stutters and hesitations shouldn't really count as extra words.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next strip already.

Simple explosion of power, methinks.

Also: possible scene change incoming? ...Nah.


Oh and who knew ultimate power would be pink?

V's magic is pink.


So this is it. RIP Varsuvius :(

Other setbacks for the party were significant, but even Roy's death is heroic and reversible. With V falling to the dark side, that's the most serious threat to the group so far I'd say.
Then again, maybe the dragon will activate the antimagic field again and own V through all three Splices? Heh, that's the power of broken spells.

Regardless, splendidly done Giant. I love the drawing of Aarindarius flying and fighting the dragon while still totally concentrated at his book. LOL!

V hasn't gone Dark yet.

[SteveMB]

...Did anyone think of that plan before this comic?

Why do I have this mental image that

if and when the rest of the group finds out what V did, somebody will chime in with "why didn't you just (insert IFCC alternative plan)?" :smallamused:

[Deth Muncher]

Ooooooh crap.

[NamonakiRei]

:smalleek: :smalleek: :eek: Holy C***!!

:smallfrown:

Aww man, poor V.

Those really are hell of the wrong reasons. She had been given by the fiends another perfect choice, but he didn't take it because of her pride! Those are the wrong, the very wrong reasons.
Even when the fiends wer giving him a relativley good (though not 100% sure) way of saving her children, they also told him that she would "fail" if she did things that way. And instead of sucking up his pride, and saying no, she gave in to his pride and wish to, let's say, "have the credit" for saving his children(And mate). That would explain why they were the wrong reasons...

Though on her favor, I could say that he hasn't tranced on months, is very pressured and has some... stress problems, and slight overreactions when she can't achieve something through Arcane Power, that still doesn't mean this isn't a wrong as hell reason. He's not doing this just for saving her family, but for his own unability to accept that she cannot achieve EVERYTHING, his pride, and perhaps because she still bears some little grudge toward the people on the fleet?
Also, there is the fact that the alternative plan wasn't that good, nor sure-succes(for an example, they could have not resurrected V because, let's say, they're out of diamonds, and they're getting some tomorrow), and really long, and time is a main issue here.

Still, V didn't choose because of that, but because of pride... :smallsigh:

Also, the fiends are damn smart, and damn lied. They definitley DID study V, they weren't "just waiting for the next request to come down the line", they were at least scrying on him. Quoting, "how would THAT be fair?"

(Also, I guess UAP is pink because V's magic is pink...)

[Jimorian]

Maybe not. Richard Burlew is well known for playing tricks with his readers, and there are certainly more "ultimate" arcane powers in the OotS world.

People keep saying this as an excuse to justify all kinds of wild conjectures, but I'm going to come right out and say that it has NEVER been true. Rich comes up with plot twists that we don't expect, but he hasn't tricked or cheated with the readers, or played nit-picky word games on US.

[malakim2099]

Now we can end all the discussions about the four words. :smallbiggrin:

Well, I still prefer to interpret it as "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." since that would also qualify. But this definitely fits the bill as well.

Though I don't necessarily see this as coming back to bite the OOTS in the butt, right away... but this is definitely going to be a problem eventually. Particularly if some of the speculation in the #633 thread holds true.

Heh, might be an interesting plot twist for strip 666... :smallwink:

[Zevox]

*glances at comic title, counts number of words in V's final statement*

Yup, that there's the prophecy's conclusion all right. Looks like we've finally reached the end of the useless speculating on that topic. And its another prophecy that has turned out to be exactly what it sounded like.

Can't wait for the next comic. This is one story arc that has been and still is suspenseful as hell.

Zevox

[A Quiet Person]

That's a pretty stupid way to shoehorn the whole "for all the wrong reasons" part of the prophecy in at the last minute. Anyone with common sense could see that it's not a matter of V's pride being tarnished, it's a matter of time; One solution will immediately grant him the power he needs to fend off the dragon. The other is a ridiculously circuitous plan that will most assuredly take longer than it has to. If I were in V's shoes I would have called the three fiends idiots for even suggesting the alternative.

I agree; I think this is a pretty bad strip.

For while now, I've been thinking that V is being presented with a complete railroad. If this strip was a game, V's player would have good reason to be pretty unimpressed with the DM. Now, we get the strip to explain that V had an "alternative". But the "alternative" was less convincing than a Marvel comics retcon.

So the Imp would have to respect V's dying wish because it's lawful? Even if the order entailed doing something effectively suicidal? In a strip in which we've previously been encouraged not to see Alignment as a character strightjacket, that doesn't sound right. If the imp has even a little wiggle room on its Alignment, V cuts his / her head off for nothing, and his family get butchered.

And where does this Resurrection spell come from exactly? If Resurrection is easy for Hinjo's people, how come they couldn't raise Therkla? We're supposed to think of the fleet as a group of survivors without the power that used to be in Azure City, but now we're told that they can just whip up a Resurrection at short notice?

To top off the developments that don't seem to gel with the backstory, we're suddenly introduced to the idea that V has a master who is magically far more powerful than V. Which raises the question of why V has not already sought out this master to learn more power from him or get his assistance. Why not call this master for help when Azure City was being attacked?

This whole thing looks like it's been shoe-horned in so that V can still be judged as morally-compromised for taking the deal. It attempts to remove the possible reaction that V had no choice considering what would happen to his / her family. But it reads like a real wall-banger.

I know I'm raining on the parade, and I apologise to those who are enjoying OoTS, but... ugh.

[Undead Prince]

And Evil triumphs again! Mwa-ha-ha!

But seriously, a great comic. I did not anticipate the fiends actually outlining an alternative and V not taking it.

So:

1. V: By DnD rules, alignment should be changed to Evil.

2. Fiends: Yellow = Lee. He totally pulled a Faustian Pact on V, to the point of carefully avoiding any possible claim of duress by outlining an alternative. Purple = Cedrick, Orange = Nero.

3. Aarindarius: Fiends probably know a lot more about V than we, the readers. Perhaps there is a one-sided rivalry between V and his former Master.


I wonder if someone proposed that route of saving the children before. To be fair - that plan had almost 0% chance of succeeding.

The fiends made it sound that the alternative was sure to succeed. There wouldn't be any benefit in lying to V about this - after all, they wanted him to take the deal. They offered him a clean-cut alternative so that there could be no wriggle room - he's taking the deal out of selfish pride, and not because of duress.


By the way - if V knows a wizard who is capable of defeating a CR 20 Dragon with a single spell (which is almost certainly non-core, as no 9th level spells from core fit)

How about a lowly Finger of Death?


then why this wizard isn't saving the world along with OotS? Or helping V find Haley, even indirectly?

Perhaps because

1) He's Neutral, like V, and doesnt care about the "greater good", although he might be moved to personally assist his friends;

2) Vaarsuvius in his hubris never told Aarindarius about the Snarl, or Haley. As we found out, V's driving force is pride.

Can't wait to see the Gestalt Entity!

[opheliagonemad]

Wow. And as if that weren't enough revealed, the Giant even worked in a hint on how scrolls of sending work in his world, so it appears Cleric of Loki's sending likely reaching Durkon. Just. Wow. Great job, Giant.

[Janmorel]

Well played, Evil Fiends. Well played. It really wouldn't be a good Faustian bargain (drama-wise) if the elf literally had no other options.

Also, this is definitely going to make things a lot more awkward as far as the Paladins are concerned.

Even assuming that Elan never waivers from his saltwater piranha story, V wasn't exactly on their good side when he left. When he comes back more powerful and registering as Evil... things could get ugly.

(I don't necessarily think that V will actually be evil, but if Roy registered as evil when he was wearing an object that had been near someone evil for a while, I'm pretty sure that actually containing 3 evil souls will have the same general effect.)

[Rutskarn]

Well, there we go then. Now the damn forums can shut the hell up about the prophecies.

Except Elan's. I guess.

[Porthos]

<posts without reading reactions>
V, you bleeding idiot. :smallfurious:

That's all I gotz to say right now.
</posts without reading reactions>

[Kish]

Well, I still prefer to interpret it as "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." since that would also qualify.
Look at the title of this strip. There is no ambiguity about what the four words are.

[Shadeogrey]

MUAHAHAHAHA!!
I like this!!

Down and down she/he goes
And what punishment will come, nobody knows!!

... well, except for Burlew, of course..

Well played, Evil! MUahahahahah!!

[Porthos]

And where does this Resurrection spell come from exactly? If Resurrection is easy for Hinjo's people, how come they couldn't raise Therkla?

Therkla said flat out that she would refuse the Raise Dead, remember? :smallsmile:

As for your other complaints, I think the comic had well established before this point that V was sliding down the hubris chute. This was just the final nail in the coffin.

Not saying the plan wasn't needlessly complicated. That's not the point of the strip. The point is that V does have alternatives. The one that the IFCC laid out wasn't the only one, you know. There have been dozens of other outs that the forum posters have thought up.

No, the point of this strip is that V is doing all of this for Pride. Yes, he does want to save his kids. Yes he does want to save Haley and Roy. Yes, he does want to stop the Snarl.

But.

But a large part of his current motivation is shame and pride.

And that is, at least according to many many religions and philosophies, all the wrong reasons.

I guess this is just a long way of saying that this strip worked for me. It built on prior themes, and really twisted the dagger whilst doing so.

[SteveMB]

And where does this Resurrection spell come from exactly? If Resurrection is easy for Hinjo's people, how come they couldn't raise Therkla?

For starters, you can't resurrect somebody who doesn't want to come back (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html).

That said, it's possible that the IFCC are being less than completely honest (presumably as part of a plan to get their claws deeper into V).


To top off the developments that don't seem to gel with the backstory, we're suddenly introduced to the idea that V has a master who is magically far more powerful than V. Which raises the question of why V has not already sought out this master to learn more power from him or get his assistance.

On The Origin Of PCs minor spoiler:

V's master threw h** out (apparently not maliciously, but in a "time to leave the nest" way).
Between that, and V's pride, it's not surprising that s/he didn't try that approach.

[Klev]

And where does this Resurrection spell come from exactly? If Resurrection is easy for Hinjo's people, how come they couldn't raise Therkla? We're supposed to think of the fleet as a group of survivors without the power that used to be in Azure City, but now we're told that they can just whip up a Resurrection at short notice?

Geez First Durkon has ressurection this has been said for a long time, second Elan says that they WOULD ressurect Therkla but she refused!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html)


To top off the developments that don't seem to gel with the backstory, we're suddenly introduced to the idea that V has a master who is magically far more powerful than V. Which raises the question of why V has not already sought out this master to learn more power from him or get his assistance. Why not call this master for help when Azure City was being attacked?
First why would V's master even care about Azure City, what the heck even V didn't care that much. Second it is pretty much set in D&D that every disciple goes in adventure even if he is master is Gandalf or something. Third and most important the only point about today's strip was that V is arrogant and prideful going to h** Master asking for help would hurt his pride a lot and would only do for someone important to him (like h** family) and certainly not for Azure City.


This whole thing looks like it's been shoe-horned in so that V can still be judged as morally-compromised for taking the deal. It attempts to remove the possible reaction that V had no choice considering what would happen to his / her family. But it reads like a real wall-banger
The idea seems very far fetched but again it is not very far fetched from the ideas V had before, the only point more is to cut h** head. And about being more certain, well is certainly looks better than dealing with three cunning devils, you seem to like Marvel so go ask the Ghost Rider how that ends...

[Lupy]

This is possibly the best, and saddest, comic yet.

My response:

"V! No!"

*tears up*

"This is like Miko dying all over again."

A++ Giant, you just aced the "make your posters cry" test. :frown:

[Flabbicus]

There are two yellow-eyed fiends in the fifth panel.

[A Quiet Person]

Hmm. If the imp has to serve V, why can't V send a few pages of written instructions to Durkon?

V's a wizard, so ink, quill and paper must be close at hand. A couple of pages weigh less than 50 lbs, and V can include a brief explanation, a description of his master and the message to send via Sending.

Yes, it'd take a short time to write, but how much time would it have taken Durkon and Elan to make sense of V's death and sort out a Resurrection spell? Certainly makes more sense than cutting your own throat and mailing your severed head to your friends. Less likely to be misunderstood too.

All the more reason why I find the choice presented in #634 to be a wall-banger.

[Porthos]

On The Origin Of PCs minor spoiler:

V's master threw h** out (apparently not maliciously, but in a "time to leave the nest" way).
Between that, and V's pride, it's not surprising that s/he didn't try that approach.

Aarindarius was also mentioned a few strips back (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), so this his hardly new information.

Though just how the IFCC knows about all of this (the ship, Durkon having a Sending Scroll ready, etc) IS a tad on the interesting side.... :smallamused:

[TheSummoner]

"I... I must succeed" *flash of light*

Beautiful. Those three just set a new standard in evil...

:elan: Dun dun dun!

(heh, I knew when it happened it would be obvious that it happened)

[SandyCaesar]

Hmm. If the imp has to serve V, why can't V send a few pages of written instructions to Durkon?

V's a wizard, so ink, quill and paper must be close at hand. A couple of pages weigh less than 50 lbs, and V can include a brief explanation, a description of his master and the message to send via Sending.

Yes, it'd take a short time to write, but how much time would it have taken Durkon and Elan to make sense of V's death and sort out a Resurrection spell? Certainly makes more sense than cutting your own throat and mailing your severed head to your friends. Less likely to be misunderstood too.

All the more reason why I find the choice presented in #634 to be a wall-banger.

Because there's the distinct possibility that the paladins wouldn't believe the letter; it would presumably cause little difficulty for the imp's higher-ups to forge V's handwriting, signature, or even magical runes--or so the Sapphire Guard might think. It wouldn't be likely that Qorl would still be around to explain.

[Porthos]

All the more reason why I find the choice presented in #634 to be a wall-banger.

They're Fiends! It's not supposed to be a happy well thought out plan. :smallsmile:

And, if I may say so, you're still missing the point. The point of the strip wasn't to present a well thought out plan to V. The point was to show V that he still had options, whether or not they were needlessly complicated. But he was too pridefull to take them, or even think of them.

Besides, V isn't clearly thinking right now. He hasn't rested in over six months, if not longer. He is literally at the snapping point.

After all, V was the one who shot down all of the alternatives in this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html) If he was thinking clearly, he could have done something like you suggest. Or he could have done one of the literally dozens of other plans that have been suggested.

But he didn't.

Because he is too prideful and filled with shame to do so. I think that the the strips with V ever since the fall of Azure City have driven that point home.

So, again, is the plan that the IFCC came up with whacky and ill-thought out? Probably. It's also narratively irrelevant. At least in my opinion.

Besides, would the IFCC really tell V about a plan that he might use? That's just being a bad salesman. :smalltongue:

[Senko]

I like the fact that ultimate Arcane power is pink. Anyway just a few points . . .

1) Am I the only one vaguely hoping V will use his ultimate arcane powers to somehow restore the dragon's son (time hop, switch with fake dragon body, time hop "heres' your son maam.)

2) I actually don't think theres any hidden catch's in this deal. Two of the powers offering it are either lawful or neutral and as a long term goal that's actually believable if all the hordes of evil united under one banner good would be in serious difficulty.

3) With regards to the greater arcane power issue remember first you need to be aware of the situation, second you need to care about the situation and third you need to beleive that your interference would actually be the best course to take. If your an old man/woman (as V's master appears to be) it would make sense to let the younger generation get some experience in dealing with these things because you wont be around for ever (like that poor dragon did with her son) and you'll assume they'll have the sense to ask for help if they need it. Not to mention the fact that as you get stronger you tend to deal with greater problems (although what could top a reality destroying ancient evil is a tough question) and leave the lesser ones to those who should be able to handle them while you focus on the stuff only you can deal with.

[12sea21]

lol.... no pressure! just saying... the time stop ends in 4...3...2...1... :D

[Silverraptor]

Now we can end all the discussions about the four words. :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunatly, no. People on this forum will continue to argue about the four words. They will find different reasons for why those weren't the four words. i.e. There were 4 beings there, so he didn't say it to "the right being". Even though the title is The Wrong Reasons!!! I mean how more fricking obvious can that get.:smallmad:

On a more personal note.
"I...I must succeed."
Those were the 4 words!:smallfurious: I mean I was really looking for something a little more dramatic. I wouldn't really mind it this so much except for the fact that V chose this. Even though the fiends actually told him another option, he chose pride over logic. I mean , DAMIT V!:smallfurious: You are probably the only guy with 18 INT to do something that stupid!:smallmad:

Anyone who agrees with me?

(Please ignore the first saying on my signature for this post. Thank you)

[Moose Fisher]

Thank you Giant.

I can't think of any other words.

These last 11 strips, and the entirety of Start of Darkness are the best examples of your writing talent.

[pendell]

New comic is up.

*clap clap clap clap clap*

Well played, sir. This is why your server crashes whenever you do an update. Because it is just That. Darn. Cool.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[jmucchiello]

Because there's the distinct possibility that the paladins wouldn't believe the letter; it would presumably cause little difficulty for the imp's higher-ups to forge V's handwriting, signature, or even magical runes--or so the Sapphire Guard might think. It wouldn't be likely that Qorl would still be around to explain.
Who cares what the paladins would or would not believe. V should have sent a message to Durkon via the imp from the beginning. "Durkon, a black dragon threatens my family. Use one of your message scrolls to send this message to so-and-so of the such-and-such school of arcane whatever located in the where-ever-he-is location. 'Name-of-mentor, a black dragon threatens V's family in the location-of-cottage. V will contact you soon. Please save V's family.' Be sure to end the sending with Rumpelstillskin so he'll know it's from me." V is supposed to be smart. This plan is most likely to succeed since Durkon is known not to attack first and ask questions later. So the imp should survive long enough to port in and port out.

But, why speculate of what is far less interesting than putting your soul up for collateral on a time-share.

[Enlong]

I like the fact that ultimate Arcane power is pink. Anyway just a few points . . .

1) Am I the only one vaguely hoping V will use his ultimate arcane powers to somehow restore the dragon's son (time hop, switch with fake dragon body, time hop "heres' your son maam.)


c'mon. Think of something reasonable.

I mean, V doesn't even have a Time Egg, and who knows where he's gonna get 40 Silver Points to get a dopple-doll.

[Porthos]

Who cares what the paladins would or would not believe. V should have sent a message to Durkon via the imp from the beginning. "Durkon, a black dragon threatens my family. Use one of your message scrolls to send this message to so-and-so of the such-and-such school of arcane whatever located in the where-ever-he-is location. 'Name-of-mentor, a black dragon threatens V's family in the location-of-cottage. V will contact you soon. Please save V's family.' Be sure to end the sending with Rumpelstillskin so he'll know it's from me." V is supposed to be smart. This plan is most likely to succeed since Durkon is known not to attack first and ask questions later. So the imp should survive long enough to port in and port out.

But, why speculate of what is far less interesting than putting your soul up for collateral on a time-share.

And if V had tranced (or even talked about his feelings of failure to his friends) in the last few months, maybe he would have thought of that plan.

Course I tend to think that if V had tranced or confided in his friends, he never would have been in this position in the first place, so there you are. :smallamused:

[Sigmund]

Lee scares me. He's willing to outline a way for V to break up the deal *just to manipulate V through guilt*. Canceling the time stop when V's trying to decide is even worse. Lee's an extremely manipulative creature. I wouldn't be surprised if he were the real pants in the IFCC - it certainly seems so, given how much he takes the lead in discussions.

I don't feel disappointed in V so much as frightened at Lee. Quite frankly, if V were thinking *at all* clearly, he'd reject the deal since it leaves him with no way to resurrect his family (NO DIVINE MAGIC).

[The Extinguisher]

I must say, if someone told me all they way back in 331 the V's four words would be said to himself, I would never have believed them. I thought the most interesting part of the prophecy was the wrong reasons. Boy, was I wrong.

Well done, well done.

And it's was really weird seeing V non sleep deprived in that flashback.

[dogmac]

:smallfrown:

Oh V

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[Kroy]

Four Words! Four Words! Four Words! Four Words!Four Words! Four Words! Four Words!



Four Words!
Four Words...

[Ghastly Epigram]

Who cares what the paladins would or would not believe. V should have sent a message to Durkon via the imp from the beginning. "Durkon, a black dragon threatens my family. Use one of your message scrolls to send this message to so-and-so of the such-and-such school of arcane whatever located in the where-ever-he-is location. 'Name-of-mentor, a black dragon threatens V's family in the location-of-cottage. V will contact you soon. Please save V's family.' Be sure to end the sending with Rumpelstillskin so he'll know it's from me." V is supposed to be smart. This plan is most likely to succeed since Durkon is known not to attack first and ask questions later. So the imp should survive long enough to port in and port out.

Erm, we basically had an entire strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html) regarding why such options were not possible. And he would have to be lucky to catch Durkon on his own, even assuming he would not instantly act against the imp that summoned a giant devil to kill them all. And even if he did, how would he prove it is from V? "Be sure to end the sending with Rumpelstillskin so he'll know it's from me." I am not sure how that is supposed to make sense. :smallconfused:

And yes, Vaarsuvius is supposed to be smart, but he has been incredibly stressed with all that he has been through and has not tranced for a very long time. And he has just been told that his family is about to be killed. Can we really him to be thinking entirely logically? And his dismissal of the idea is not unreasonable.

[delguidance]

OMG. Man those fiends have style.

Though if V pulls this off his pride can be justified. Then again pride goes before the fall.

[Woodsman]

I mean , DAMIT V!:smallfurious: You are probably the only guy with 18 INT to do something that stupid!:smallmad:


That's actually untrue. A lot of people would do this to save their own family. I'd probably go with the "cut my own head off" scenario, as my pride isn't that great, but I'm sure quite a few other people would do what V did.

[Shadowbane]

Ohmygosh. V!!!

On the other hand, this could be really, really cool. :\ But V!

[Lerky]

HA! That was 4 words:smalltongue:

[Warren Dew]

PS: The sad little expression on V's face as s/he reaches out to touch the orb in just horrible. It's like s/he is well aware that hir motivations are not all that pure at the moment of the choice, and that pride is playing a large part in the decision - but that can't stop hir.

I don't see this at all - in fact, quite the opposite. The expression is that of someone who is unhappy, but has no other choice. It's entirely inconsistent with the idea that Vaarsuvius is making a decision out of pride; if that were the case, the expression would be one of imperiousness after having made the decision or anger at having to make the decision.

The expression is far more consistent with:


One solution will immediately grant him the power he needs to fend off the dragon. The other is a ridiculously circuitous plan that will most assuredly take longer than it has to.

Agreed. Remember that Vaarsuvius thinks that payment will only be after death. If that's the case, the decision to try to save the kids before they die, rather than allowing them to die first, is a decision made for the right reasons, not the wrong ones.

The only possible wrong reason I can see here that's consistent with Vaarsuvius' expression is if Vaarsuvius rejected the plan solely because Vaarsuvius lacks the courage for suicide.


...Did anyone think of that plan before this comic?

I think it was mentioned a few times in one of the myriad threads full of ridiculous ways Vaarsuvius could save the children - ways that everyone agreed would have no chance of succeeding.

It appears Vaarsuvius also agrees.

[Porthos]

BTW, I can't be the only one who thinks that a scene change is coming up right about now, can I?

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if...

we never see what happens to V while he is under the effects of the splice. Oh sure, we'll see the aftermath. But the actual splice itself?

Wouldn't surprise me at all if we don't see it.

In fact, if Rich was feeling particularlly evil, we'll fade back to V just after the splice is over (using the same fade to black pink that we saw at the end of this strip) without having any idea just how long he was affected by the splice. Maybe we'll just get clues (scorch marks in the background, strange clothes or items, him holding something werid, a strange sense of loss, etc) as to what exactly he was upto during this time.

Gots to have something to obsess about after all. :smalltongue:

Might be interesting to start taking bets as to where V "wakes up" from all of this, if we indeed don't get to see the V-man does. :smallamused:

[SteveMB]

OMG. Man those fiends have style.

Though if V pulls this off his pride can be justified. Then again pride goes before the fall.

Hmmm... another possible reason to make sure V was given an option that didn't require making the deal:

Making a deal with fiends because it was the only way to save one's family might be explainable to the gatekeepers of a non-evil afterlife as the least evil option available (similar to Roy's explanation of his association with Belkar). Making a deal with fiends to salve one's pride... not so much.

They're laying the groundwork for one of their realms to get h** soul for keeps.

[Porthos]

t's entirely inconsistent with the idea that Vaarsuvius is making a decision out of pride;

Not if it's pride mixed in with shame. If it is (and shame and pride often go hand-in-hand), then the expression is perfectly appropriate.

The pride is not one of being aloof. It's the one of not being able to stand up and admit personal failure. It's a whole sort of different pride than the one that says, "Dood, 1 iz teh Gratest!1eleventy-eleven".

[civver]

About time for an update. Hopefully this stops all the speculation about those "four words". :smallsigh:

[Warren Dew]

Not if it's pride mixed in with shame. If it is (and shame and pride often go hand-in-hand), then the expression is perfectly appropriate.

The pride is not one of being aloof. It's the one of not being able to stand up and admit personal failure.

Then where does the shame come from? To feel shame, Vaarsuvius would have to recognize and admit to a personal failure to feel shameful about.

[Illven]

I agree; I think this is a pretty bad strip.

For while now, I've been thinking that V is being presented with a complete railroad. If this strip was a game, V's player would have good reason to be pretty unimpressed with the DM. Now, we get the strip to explain that V had an "alternative". But the "alternative" was less convincing than a Marvel comics retcon.

So the Imp would have to respect V's dying wish because it's lawful? Even if the order entailed doing something effectively suicidal? In a strip in which we've previously been encouraged not to see Alignment as a character strightjacket, that doesn't sound right. If the imp has even a little wiggle room on its Alignment, V cuts his / her head off for nothing, and his family get butchered.

And where does this Resurrection spell come from exactly? If Resurrection is easy for Hinjo's people, how come they couldn't raise Therkla? We're supposed to think of the fleet as a group of survivors without the power that used to be in Azure City, but now we're told that they can just whip up a Resurrection at short notice?

To top off the developments that don't seem to gel with the backstory, we're suddenly introduced to the idea that V has a master who is magically far more powerful than V. Which raises the question of why V has not already sought out this master to learn more power from him or get his assistance. Why not call this master for help when Azure City was being attacked?

This whole thing looks like it's been shoe-horned in so that V can still be judged as morally-compromised for taking the deal. It attempts to remove the possible reaction that V had no choice considering what would happen to his / her family. But it reads like a real wall-banger.

I know I'm raining on the parade, and I apologise to those who are enjoying OoTS, but... ugh.


But remeber the celestial in the upper planes when Roy died and was judged impiled that outsiders do stick to their alignments

[Porthos]

Then where does the shame come from? To feel shame, Vaarsuvius would have to recognize and admit to a personal failure to feel shameful about.

Here's your shame. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) :smallsmile:

It's also been hinted (if not out right stated) that V ("I must not fail again" "My magic was not up to the task". etc) hasn't tranced because of feelings of inadequacy. And what are feelings of inadequecy if not shame?

The server is a bit stressed right now, so I can't link to all of the strips, but there have been, quite literally IMO, at least a half-a-dozen strips where once can see that V feels shame over his actions (or at least lack of personal knowledge) over the fall of Azure City.

PS: The seeds for this have been planted as far back as this strip where V looks embarrassed when Elan found V trying to sneak out of the city. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html)

[dish]

I like the fact that ultimate Arcane power is pink. ...

V's power has always been pink. This is just an over-abundance of it.


Four Words! Four Words! Four Words! Four Words!Four Words! etc, etc.
Yeah, but two of them were the same word. As I'm sure Rich is aware, this does leave some ambiguity to play with.

[SteveMB]

Then where does the shame come from? To feel shame, Vaarsuvius would have to recognize and admit to a personal failure to feel shameful about.

Vaarsuvius has been obsessively trying to contact Haley, and has clearly been taking the failure personally (probably because it's all too reminiscent of V's failure back at Azure City).

It seems to me that Vaarsuvius has always had the same notion as Eugene Greenhilt, that magic properly understood and used trumps all. V doesn't make a vocal issue of it, perhaps because nobody in V's life ties it up in a personality conflict (as Roy does with Eugene) and perhaps because it just seems so self-evident that there's no need to bother saying it.

[St. Salieri]

The tragedy: it's so ironic! And the irony: it's so tragic!

If V is indeed accepting the offer for the sake of his pride (which seems fairly clear), then he is failing even in that. At this point, his own magic has failed; he cannot solve this problem on his own. And as far as personal pride is concerned, I don't see a difference between "Master had to clean up your mess" and "you had to get the help of three epic casters." True, V gets to be the primary agent in this deal, but the fact remains that his magic has "failed him yet again," to borrow Yellow Fiend's words.

Poor deluded sleeptrance-deprived V. :smallfrown:

[Trazoi]

That's a pretty stupid way to shoehorn the whole "for all the wrong reasons" part of the prophecy in at the last minute. Anyone with common sense could see that it's not a matter of V's pride being tarnished, it's a matter of time; One solution will immediately grant him the power he needs to fend off the dragon. The other is a ridiculously circuitous plan that will most assuredly take longer than it has to. If I were in V's shoes I would have called the three fiends idiots for even suggesting the alternative.
I know what you mean. Any plan that includes "cut off your head" as one of the early stages doesn't strike me as a winner.

If I were in V's position I'd have accepted the deal in that instant too. On the one hand, there's a plan like a Rube Goldberg machine held together with used dental floss that involves killing yourself. On the other, a plan where you're in control that's more akin to "push the button". Much less risk to just accept the deal.

I'm still hoping that the "four words" are actually... ...when V doesn't give up the power after rescuing his family, because it's far too addicting... ...but I'm thinking that these might be it. I'm not sure repeating "I" twice should count though. :smalltongue:

[Fridesgerte]

I don't post much, but I just had to say: Giant, you are a genius. A cruel evil genius to leave us hanging like that, but a genius non the less. I just loved the way the three presented their alternative in such a way as to feed into all of V's pride and insecurity at the same time.

I'm so glad I checked one more time tonight for an update. Now I get to read 4 pages of other people's responses :smallbiggrin:.

[enh]

I don't see any four words that had any effect whatsoever here. It was by touching the globe that V earned the power. If she had stayed silent and touched it, it'd still be the same.

There are no four words here.

It could be argued that the four words and the feeling behind them is what's causing V to touch the sphere. And remember also that the Oracle's prophecies are very very literal-minded; witness what he said to Belkar compared to how that prophecy was finally fulfilled.

(Side note: it's taken me 8 tries just to get this posted because of the horrible server performance, so I'm dropping out of the thread at this point. Happy discussing!)

[The Extinguisher]

Except whatever the plan was is not important.

It was a suggestion of "you could do it this way, but then you will be weak and have pathetic magic". But rather "you will be weak and have pathetic magic if you don't do it our way"

The fiend's idea could have been sitting around and eating peanut butter. It's the 13th pannel that really matters. They want him to do this, not to save his family, but because he wants the power.

The four words are said to himself, to reassure him that he wants this because he wants to be powerful.

[Grunthos]

The details of Lee's alternative plan are completely unimportant here - it needed to be plausible, but that's the only restriction. V was about to accept the offer with a psychological self-deception that Lee (smartly) refused to allow. V tried to make this about noble self-sacrifice. Lee made sure V understood it was about pride. This will likely have very unpleasant repercussions, and I think we will see them shortly. (I'd discuss the details, but I can't get a post with a spoiler tag to work tonite.)

The best thing about this particular strip, IMO, is that V's four words are not really being said to the fiends. They are being said to hirself. The right words (determination: I must protect those dearest to me from harm), to the right person (courage: I must stay true to my values even if I risk harm to myself), at the right time (alacrity: act now or lose all), for all the wrong reasons (fear of failure, fear of being branded a failure, fear of being a normal person with a normal life, pride in my capacities rather than my accomplishments, unwillingness to accept aid when I need it because my pride is in my capacities and not my accomplishments).

[Tova]

But... but... I'm so confused!

(Yes I'm a newbie round here... hi)

Everyone here seems completely convinced, almost without further discussion, that the four words were "I... I must succeed."

BUT, apart from the kludginess of the repeated word... he hasn't obtained power by saying those words. He obtained it (assuming he has) by touching the blue sphere. The words were incidental.

I know, it seems like a somewhat technical point. But the scene appears to have been very carefully set up so that he makes the choice through an action, not through words. Nice excuse for a Matrix joke, but there may be more to it than that.

So, I'm afraid I'm not yet convinced.

Edit: hmmph someone else beat me to it, but I'm still going to reserve judgement.

[Porthos]

It could be argued that the four words and the feeling behind them is what's causing V to touch the sphere.

Yes, that's exactly it, IMO. V is saying to himself "I... I must succeed" as a way of convincing himself to actually do it.

If one looks at it as V talking himself into doing it, then it fits perfectly.

Haley: Didn't look the gift horse of Nale in the mouth.
Belkar: Got pissed off at the wisearce Oracle and killed said Oracle.
Roy: Well, Xykon hasn't actually left for Girard's Gate yet, but I think it's a pretty safe bet he'll eventually get around to doing it.
Vaarsuvius: Talked himself into/Gave himself the mental courage to "swallow the blue pill".

Now Durkon's and Elan's (as well as Roy's) are still up in the air, but we gots plenty of time left in the comic to address those prophecies. :smalltongue:

[Hurkyl]

There's another advantage (to the fiends) to having the alternative plan being "ike a Rube Goldberg machine held together with used dental" -- it will be that much easier for V to rationalize this afterwards, and maybe even convince himself that he really was doing the Right Thing.

[Warren Dew]

Here's your shame. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) :smallsmile:

It's also been hinted (if not out right stated) that V ("I must not fail again" "My magic was not up to the task". etc) hasn't tranced because of feelings of inadequacy. And what are feelings of inadequecy if not shame?

That still makes no sense. For that to be connected with Vaarsuvius' expression and decision, you'd have to argue that Vaarsuvius sees the Rube Goldberg alternate plan as equivalent to running away in Azure City. That implies that Vaarsuvius thinks the alternate plan would not work - and that's still a valid reason for avoiding it, not a wrong reason.

[Titanium Dragon]

Of course they were after V. And that's why the terms of the contract seem so fair.

The reason the contract isn't "fair" (or, should I say, is terribly advantageous for the bad guys) is that while V is assuming that they gain custody of his/her soul after he/she dies, I strongly suspect they'll take control of V's soul when they can use it in order to gain control over one of the gates.

Remember:

They know about the gates. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)

[silvadel]

Also note that if V went with the suicide route that would mean V would lose a level and thus be far less able to help against the snarl. Plus they would lose a scroll of ressurrect (which might be important later on) and the diamonds when they dont exactly have an unlimited supply and might need the money.

[Hatu]

Looks like the wrong reasons are that V would have to avoid admitting that his current arcane power is insufficient. This is primarily a matter of pride.

No, this is a matter of railroading, plain and simple. The alternative "kill yourself, imp-post head to Durkon, get raised, Send message to master, have master intercept Dragon" is ludicrously convoluted. It's no better than any of the Oracle's tortured justifications for how Belkar managed to 'kill' someone. If this really is the fulfillment of the prophecy, I'm glad Belkar killed the quack.

Seriously, what is that little revelation supposed to add to this storyline? We're supposed to believe that it's only wrong because of Vaarsuvius' hubris? That doesn't even make sense. He does not consider making a Faustian bargain to be an acknowledging that his magic has failed, even though he had to go and get three better spell-casters grafted onto him through no skill of his own. But at the same time, accepting advice from the fiends IS acknowledging his own failings, even though there is absolutely no way he could have known the plan would have worked on his own. I don't see how this makes sense as a sign of V's hubris, much less see how this is supposed to justify his damnation.

I'm extremely unimpressed. I know V's supposed to be a bit muddled under the circumstances, but my judgment is no more impaired than than normal. I don't see why I'm supposed to consider the existence of this inane alternative as in some way meaningful.

-H

[Alteran]

Excellent comic overall, although the other plan does seem a bit too complex and unreliable to me.

I now firmly believe that one of the upcoming strips must be titled "V for Vendetta". :smallbiggrin:

[Eomdil]

Unfortunatly, no. People on this forum will continue to argue about the four words. They will find different reasons for why those weren't the four words. i.e. There were 4 beings there, so he didn't say it to "the right being".

Actually he did. There were 2 Balls, the red one at the left, the blue one at the right. He said it to the blue one, so, technically, to the right being. :)

[Finwe]

The so called "alternative" is a weak plan, at best. Consider:

1. Qarr may be lawful, but that by no means implies that he must rigidly stand by an offer he made several minutes before. When V killed himself, Qarr might simply decide to leave, thinking that he would be serving the greater Evil.

2. Qarr does not know where the fleet currently is. Either V will have to spend a precious round divining the location, or Qarr will have to spend a few rounds searching for the fleet.

3. Who says Durkon has 10,000 gp of diamonds laying around? Even if he, or the fleet does, they'll have to expend multiple precious rounds just to retrieve them.

3.5 Who says Durkon has a resurrection prepared?

4. Resurrection takes 10 minutes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) to cast. Soul bind takes one round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm). Even if the dragon takes a whole 10 minutes to kill two children and soul bind them, she can just leave as soon as she spots V's master. He'll have to hope to catch her by surprise, and successfully cast dimensional anchor on her.

5. There's no guarantee V's master is currently prepared to fight a black dragon capable of casting AMF. Unless he's of a ridiculously high level, that's probably something he would need to make preparations for.

There are far too many "if's" and "and's" for this to be considered an even remotely reliable plan. The alternative is V teleports to his house, casts Momento Mori (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/momentoMori.htm), and instantly kills the dragon. Even if she makes her fortitude save, V has an enormous repertoire of other spells to draw from for further assault. The Faustian pact is an immensely superior option. Perhaps V's reasons for accepting the deal are not the "right" ones, but any rational person would've done the same thing anyways.

[Optimystik]

Excellent comic overall, although the other plan does seem a bit too complex and unreliable to me.

Proof positive that nobody can come up with an epileptic tree like Rich can. :smallsmile:


I now firmly believe that one of the upcoming strips must be titled "V for Vendetta". :smallbiggrin:

/signed!

[Warren Dew]

The details of Lee's alternative plan are completely unimportant here - it needed to be plausible, but that's the only restriction.

Unfortunately, it's nowhere near plausible. To accept the plan, you'd have to believe that the following are all good ideas:

- Getting your own head cut off as the first step of the plan ... 'cause, you know, the Head of Vecna worked so well.

- Trusting your resurrection to an agent of evil. They want what's best for you, honest!

- Getting Qarr killed off because he was trying to be helpful. Okay, this one could probably be justified by those folks who think disintegrating Kubota was the right thing to do, but still....

Honestly, I think a better interpretation is that the title of the strip is a joke about how right the "wrong" reasons are.

[Porthos]

That still makes no sense. For that to be connected with Vaarsuvius' expression and decision, you'd have to argue that Vaarsuvius sees the Rube Goldberg alternate plan as equivalent to running away in Azure City. That implies that Vaarsuvius thinks the alternate plan would not work - and that's still a valid reason for avoiding it, not a wrong reason.

I don't want to get into a long back and forth over this, so I'll try to sum up my points thusly. :smallsmile:

V feels that if he had access to More/Better Arcane Power he could have been more effective at Azure City (I think this is pretty undeniable).
He also thinks that if he had MBAP, he'd be able to find Haley and get the gang back together.
He feels shame, not only for running away, but for not having enough MBAP to actually do the things that he wants (here it gets debatable, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it :smalltongue:)
He is frustrated that he couldn't defeat the Ancient Black Dragon, and yet again bemoans his lack of MBAP.
Frustration, Pride, and Shame are all enablers of a vicious Downward Spiral that feed off of each other. They enhance each other help reinforce the other feelings. (personal opinion, but there you are)
The speech the IFCC gives in today's strip is pretty similar to one given in SoD (readers of the book know which one I'm talking about) which also deals with shame.
Emotions don't have to be logical. In this case it's V feeling shame of failing. Whether it be to save Azure City, find Haley, or even come up with his own plan
And we won't even get into the fact that V is too prideful to admit that he can't solve every problem with his own personal understanding of magic)

The fiends practically rubbed it in V's face, BTW. But V is so screwed up right now, he simply said, "Thank You Sir. May I have Another".

So we have an unholy witch's brew of Pride (IF I can learn a little more magic, I'll succeed), Shame (My lack of Magic has caused me to fail), and Frustration (I must succeed).

And the really tragic (in the Greek sense of the word) thing is that if V had simply opened up to his friends, they would have been able to help him with his problems.

Hmmmm. Better add Hubris (Won't confide in others/Admit that I don't have all of the answers) to the witch's brew, I think.

That's what the IFCC was saying to V: You have other alternatives (not neccessarily ours). Don't blame your upcoming damnation on us especially since you (i.e V) was the one who came up with the whole "Sell My Soul" plan in the first place (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html). It's your pride/shame/hubris that lead you down this road. So own up to it while you swallow the blue pill.

That's why V was so sad. Because he realized that everything the IFCC said about him was correct. He could have done things differently. He has no one to blame but his own weakness. He had options, but decided he was going to go with his plan anyway..

And if that's not a reason to feel sad, then I don't know what is. :smallfrown:

[Great Dane]

Actually he did. There were 2 Balls, the red one at the left, the blue one at the right. He said it to the blue one, so, technically, to the right being. :)

I'd argue, as others have, that the right being is in fact himself.

[David Argall]

Quote:
Nevrmore
That's a pretty stupid way to shoehorn the whole "for all the wrong reasons" part of the prophecy in at the last minute. Anyone with common sense could see that it's not a matter of V's pride being tarnished, it's a matter of time;


What are you talking about? It might have been a matter of time if YOU were in V's place, and just as well be a matter of pride for V himself.
True enough, but we still can challenge the artistic workmanship here.
V was entirely willing to go begging to her master in 630. So saying pride was the motive may have been the intent, but it doesn't fit the facts given.

The proposed alternative is feeble. One would try it if there was no alternative, but it is clearly a desperate measure that can easily fall entirely apart, and at best gives the dragon a full half-hour to just gloat as it slowly kills the family. It is not impossible it will gloat that long, but unless one starts with the position that any deal with the devil will be be a disaster, the offer by the fiends is greatly superior.


But I still claim Kubota's death to be the four words for all the wrong reasons.

That theory is now officially consigned to the "Belkar is not evil" category. The current candidates are superior in each and every way.


I wonder if someone proposed that route of saving the children before.
Probably not. Because...


To be fair - that plan had almost 0% chance of succeeding.
Well, it's a little higher than that.. But it requires a 10 minute Resurrection, followed by a 10 minute sending, more wasted time for this and that, and a whole lot of other things being just right. It's not an attractive choice.


By the way - if V knows a wizard who is capable of defeating a CR 20 Dragon with a single spell
It's easy enough to assume that several spells were used. We merely see the deathblow.



if V were thinking *at all* clearly, he'd reject the deal since it leaves him with no way to resurrect his family (NO DIVINE MAGIC).
If the deal goes as V hopes [fat chance], V won't need to resurrect his family. The dragon will be dead before she can hurt anybody at all.

[Toper]

Wow. Those are good fiends. In the non-technical sense.

Awesome, moving strip all around.

Yeah, from here the other plan sounded fairly implausible due especially to the Resurrection casting time -- but V didn't seem to think so, and that's all that matters.

[Porthos]

The so called "alternative" is a weak plan, at best. Consider:

And if V was thinking clearly, he might have even said as much. :smallsmile:

But he didn't. He didn't say that the plan was a stupid or needlessly complicated one. He just stood there silently while the IFCC discussed it.

Everyone on this board who is nitpicking this (again admittedly needlessly complicated) plan might have a point if V raised an objection to it.

But he didn't.

In fact, V had already turned down far simpiler options that the Imp had given him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html) V was in a hurry to sell his soul (see the very next strip), but the IFCC wanted to make sure that V knew why he was doing it.

Let me put this another way: If V had already turned down simpler suggestions from Qarr (see above) why does anyone think that V wouldn't turn down another simple offer from the IFCC? He would have thought of some (probably weak) excuse and handwaved the offer away.

And I think we're obsessing about viability of IFCC's plan a bit to much here. The only reason the (so-called) plan was brought up was that V said he had no choice but to damn his soul. The IFCC decided to be, well, Evil, and say, "Nuh, uh. You have options, you just refuse to use them."

Considering that he's already refused options in the very recent past, I think the IFCC is one to something here. :smalltongue:

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh my. :smalleek: That is all.

[Ceric]

And I love that apparently, ultimate arcane power is the same color as Pepto-Bismol.

My exact reaction. :smallbiggrin:

[Hatu]

And we won't even get into the fact that V is too prideful to admit that he can't solve every problem with his own personal understanding of magic)[/list]


That may be the case, but all this comic shows us is that, even in a sleep deprived state, V is too smart to cut off his own head for no effect. What a monster he has become!!



That's what the IFCC was saying to V: You have other alternatives (not neccessarily ours). Don't blame your upcoming damnation on us especially since you (i.e V) was the one who came up with the whole "Sell My Soul" plan in the first place (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html). It's your pride/shame/hubris that lead you down this road. So own up to it while you swallow the blue pill.


Pfui. The proposed alternative is no better than staking his hopes on the ABD rolling 200 natural 1s in a row so his family can escape. The idea that that tortured excuse of an alternative justifies damning V for trying to save his loved ones is feeble at best, insulting at worst.

-H

[Arcane_Secrets]

...Did anyone think of that plan before this comic?

No, but I thought of V polymorphing herself into something weighing less than 50 pounds, and then having the imp teleport her that way.

[Flint_A]

You know, V COULD use Reduce Person before killing herself. That way the Imp could carry the entire body, and they'd only need a 1 minute Raise Dead.(Which is also cheaper.) I still wouldn't pick it myself, but it works better that way.

I still think this is too obvious to fulfill the prophecy, however.

[Porthos]

That may be the case, but all this comic shows us is that, even in a sleep deprived state, V is too smart to cut off his own head for no effect. What a monster he has become!!

Repeating what I just said, but what the heck. :smalltongue:

And you can show me in the actual comic why V rejected this (so-called) plan of the IFCC, yes? Or are you speaking for V here? :smallbiggrin:

After all, it's not as if V is shy about sharing his opinions when he thinks he hears a stupid plan. :smallamused:

[Code Black]

And so the "wrong reasons" are revealed to be the feeding of one's ego, regardless of saving one's family.

Very nice. I'm sure that the evil beings aren't planning double cross, but I think they know that three hours of damnation isn't the only aftereffect this is going to have.

[motub]

Wow.

Nobody ever said that the four words had to be four different words (so one word repeated counts as two)!

Nobody ever said that the acquisition of (what seems to be, but apparently actually isn't) ultimate arcane power is in fact an appropriate goal, or even a good idea (under the circumstances) !

And the daemons/devils/whatever.. let's just call them infernal beings... get to have a real good time (and a little jump start on the soul torture, by the way), just by telling the whole, unvarnished truth ! Delicious !

Hot spit! What a strip!

Nailed it, Rich! Absolutely nailed it! As always, even more accurately than I could have imagined.

Wow. Thanks for a great start to my day!

[Warren Dew]

I don't want to get into a long back and forth over this, so I'll try to sum up my points thusly. :smallsmile:

V feels that if he had access to More/Better Arcane Power he could have been more effective at Azure City (I think this is pretty undeniable).
He also thinks that if he had MBAP, he'd be able to find Haley and get the gang back together.
He feels shame, not only for running away, but for not having enough MBAP to actually do the things that he wants (here it gets debatable, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it :smalltongue:)
He is frustrated that he couldn't defeat the Ancient Black Dragon, and yet again bemoans his lack of MBAP.

I agree with all of these.


Frustration, Pride, and Shame are all enablers of a vicious Downward Spiral that feed off of each other. They enhance each other help reinforce the other feelings. (personal opinion, but there you are)

I think they can also be enablers of positive self improvement, but our difference of opinion here basically doesn't matter, since you don't seem to show any logical connection with Vaarsuvius's expression or decision.


The speech the IFCC gives in today's strip is pretty similar to one given in SoD (readers of the book know which one I'm talking about) which also deals with shame.

Yes, it is. However, the parallel doesn't extend to the decision, as the key decision in Start of Darkness took place before the speech, rather than afterwards. Basically, the speech in Start of Darkness works because

Start of Darknessby the time the speech is given in Start of Darkness, Redcloak has no real choice; he's already killed his brother. In the present case, Vaarsuvius does have a real choice,

making the situations basically opposite rather than parallel.


Emotions don't have to be logical. In this case it's V feeling shame of failing. Whether it be to save Azure City, find Haley, or even come up with his own plan

I don't argue that Vaarsuvius could be feeling some shame here; the logical problem is reconciling that with the decision.


And we won't even get into the fact that V is too prideful to admit that he can't solve every problem with his own personal understanding of magic)

Except that, as others have pointed out, asking for the deal in the first place is an admission that Vaarsuvius can't do it without help.

Your post provides excellent reasons for us, the readers, to feel sad. However, it still fails to explain why Vaarsuvius accepts the deal. Quite the opposite: with the story line you suggest, Vaarsuvius should reject the deal, and indeed, the expression would then fit perfectly with that rejection. But that's not what we see.

[Hatu]

And you can show me in the actual comic why V rejected this (so-called) plan of the IFCC, yes? Or are you speaking for V here? :smallbiggrin:

After all, it's not as if V is shy about sharing his opinions when he thinks he hears a stupid plan. :smallamused:

He states himself that "I must succeed." So I would suggest that V believes the alternative plan would not succeed. As that belief is entirely rational, I see no reason to question it.

Besides, as was mentioned, V was perfectly willing to send a message to either Durkon or his master back before the IFCC showed up; he did not do so because he did not think any effective message could be delivered in time. The notion that his own severed head would be an effective message is hard to believe, for reasons everyone else has already explained. So it still seems as though V's primary motivation is to save his mate and children, and only the soul-splice has a measurable chance of doing so. It might still be a bad idea, but it is clearly not "for all the wrong reasons."

-H

[The Extinguisher]

"So, you want to buy my product, right? Well I suppose I should tell you about this other product that is cheaper and will probably work better. Oh well, can I have my money?"

Why do people think the fiend's suggestion was every supposed to be a good idea. They want V's soul. They just don't want it to be done under any thoughts of the greater good that V can weseal out of.

The point is, V is taking the deal to save his family yes, but he is taking this deal because he has too much pride to admit that he can fail. To much of a fear of not being able to succed to say "no, I'll get someone's help"

[Batmankoff]

Vaarsuvius has good reason to touch the orb, if hir doesn't his/her family DIES,
granted they won't have their souls bound but they will still DIE!!!

[Ravenred]

You wonder how Roy would have handled that situation...

(After all, I have WWRD tatooed above my derriere*)

... mind you, the pride (in the name of love) option DID feel a bit shoehorned in, and might have better been spread over two strips, with the "kill youself" being a starter for a bit more back and forth between fiend and fiendee.

But the actual dilemma, and V's reaction to it, are well within the established parameters of h** character, and represent an excellent delivery system to the four words...








* May not be true

[Warren Dew]

He states himself that "I must succeed." So I would suggest that V believes the alternative plan would not succeed. As that belief is entirely rational, I see no reason to question it.

Exactly.

Vaarsuvius' expression in the previous panel is also completely consistent with desperately trying to figure out within the two second time limit whether the Rube Goldberg alternate plan would succeed.

Unfortunately, two seconds isn't enough time to confirm that it would - despite how much Vaarsuvius might wish that it were - so Vaarsuvius reluctantly accepts the deal that is believed to have been given adequate thought.

That explains Vaarsuvius's crestfallen expression. "There might be a better alternative, but I can't figure it out in time, so unfortunately I have to pick this one instead."

I have to conclude that the people who thought "killing a black dragon" was a "wrong reason" to the Oracle were correct, after all - unless the "wrong reason" is thinking that the fiends won't kill the kids and take their souls after the soul splice ends.

[TamLin]

You know, this has got to be the first really interesting V story since...wow, maybe ever. Nicely done.

[malakim2099]

You wonder how Roy would have handled that situation...

Roy learned his lesson earlier in the strip about abandoning teammates. So he wouldn't be stuck in this situation, which V put himself into.

(And frankly, if I'm a DM and the party mage decided to ditch everyone and go off by himself... yeah, I might decide to give him a visit from Mama Dragon.)

But the brilliant thing about prophecies, is that they are open to interpretation. And frankly, I think you can make a case for either set of "four words," which is not as black and white as "Belkar is not evil."

(Besides, the four words to Kubota, which spared Azure City a messy trial, were the right words to the right person at the right time, but V's reasons were... well, very bad, as Elan noted immediately after. And those words caused V to leave, and thus get caught in his current predicament.)

Of course, these four words in the current strip have the advantage of being RIGHT THERE and all, but I like the subtler aspects. :smallamused:

[Aerysil]

No fair, the four words had a stammer in it.

[Starscream]

Wicked cool strip! Not only is it dramatic, but also very satisfying.

Anyone else think maybe the fiends are supposed to represent us? That whole "kill yourself, sever your head, exploit a loophole in the rules, but you'll never do it because you are prideful" thing sounds exactly like a theory we'd suggest. And the Giant is to be commended for coming up with one we didn't.

[Porthos]

I think they can also be enablers of positive self improvement, but our difference of opinion here basically doesn't matter, since you don't seem to show any logical connection with Vaarsuvius's expression or decision.

The main problem here is that I see the issue of shame/guilt as rather self-evident, which makes it hard to pick and choose from all of the strips from where I've been seeing this build. Especially with the server being so slow.

So perhaps it is a gut-reaction. All I can say is that it works for me. :smallsmile:

Tthere were other good points in the rest of your post, some of which I partially agree with. But it would take far too long (and it's too late at night :smallwink:) for me to parse my answers exactly the way I want to, so I'll just set aside the rest of your arguments for another day. :smallsmile:

[Flint_A]

I'd like to point out that for an arcane caster, making a deal with outsiders, especially if he approaches the outsiders and not vice versa, is a very valid way of attaining power. Is it not someone's power if they use an artifact? Is a divine caster powerless because he prays? Should the king not make use of his position?

It is quite understandable that V would not see making a deal with a devil as admitting defeat but only as a way to get power, yet asking his friends for help would be out of the question.(The "monster" thing the trio tried is pointless, no wizard would mind an imp doing their work.)

[Kaytara]

:smalleek: Oh gods. I knew that the Giant setting up the scene to make us sympathetic of Vaarsuvius' flaw was a bad sign.
In all fairness, they didn't really present a viable alternative, so I could imagine refusing that plan for reasons other than hubris. Then again, pride was THE reason Vaarsuvius refused this.
It's rather cruel. The "other" plan is not only convoluted, it also entails Vaarsuvius slitting his own throat and then crawling back to the people he arrogantly deserted. I could see a normal person being unwilling to do that.

In any case, the fiends are so evil and manipulative that it's frightening. They knew all too well that Vaarsuvius would reject this "alternative", so all they accomplished by offering it was cementing V's action as irredeemably evil and prideful. And the Time Stop? Please, like they couldn't have recast it to give V more time to think. But no, they forced Vaarsuvius to decide quickly, and, as it often happens, V decided based on his instincts.

Probably one of the worst ways this can turn out is if Vaarsuvius fails to save his family nonetheless and has to suck on the "no Divine magic" clause.



Course I tend to think that if V had tranced or confided in his friends, he never would have been in this position in the first place, so there you are. :smallamused:

But Vaarsuvius DID try to confide in Durkon, back in the early 500ths. It resulted in Durkon accusing Vaarsuvius that he had only made the logically well-outlined decision of continuing his efforts to contact Haley out of guilt and not because it was the sensible option. Regardless of whether that's true or not, if you turn to someone for advice and bare your soul to them, you do not deserve to get cruelly chastised for feeling that way.
So Vaarsuvius having distanced himself from Durkon is completely understandable.

[DougTheHead]

Nice. We get the four words, and Vaarsuvius's inability to accept help of any kind from h** team due to pride finally comes back to bite h** in the ass. Any other interpretation can be placed in the Wishful Thinking file alongside all the justifications for Miko's behavior and the doubts about Belkar's alignment.

Reasons the alternate plan would almost certainly work:
1. If Qarr dropped off Vaarsuvius's head, along with a note explaining the situation, as the demons suggest in the comic, that would allow the owner of the Sending scroll to immediately relay the message to Vaarsuvius's master, who would be able to confirm the existence of a nearby dragon fairly quickly once alerted. So it would take far less than ten minutes.

2. If Qarr survives dropping off V's head and the message (which shouldn't be too hard with Teleport as a spell), V would owe him big time. It's therefore in Qarr's personal interests to cut off and deliver V's head. And as a servant of Lawful Evil who has promised to assist V, I'm doubtful as to whether Qarr can refuse an order or break alignment.

3. Durkon, Elan, and the Sapphire Guard are capable of doing what V needs them to do in sufficient time. Just because V sees them as innately inferior to h**self, ability-wise, doesn't make it so. In fact, such a task would be playing to Elan's strengths- he would immediately ascertain the dramatically correct thing to do, and convince the others with his high Charisma score.

Is it more convoluted? Sure. But this is the classic moral choice of "doing the easy thing vs. doing the right thing." V, having little faith in anyone's abilities but h** own, is a natural sucker for such a choice.

[Porthos]

But Vaarsuvius DID try to confide in Durkon, back in the early 500ths.

That was V's fault for speaking with the gruff (and low Charisma) Dwarf instead of the sympathetic and understanding (and high Charisma) Bard. :smalltongue:

Still in the strip you are (I think) talking about, look at how quickly Elan ends a spat between Durkon and V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html). V should know that if he wanted to open up, that he needed to talk to Elan. Of even Lein. But allowing himself to be goaded by Durkon (who was right on the money with all of his observations about V in this and many upcoming strips, BTW)...

... Well, just goes to show how badly needed Roy is, now isn't it? After all, Roy would never had allowed things to get this bad. Which, I suppose when it comes right down to it, the whole point of this book/arc. Without Roy, the whole Order falls apart, thanks to thier personality differences/shortcomings.

[Z-dan]

Sorry if this has been said before, but I dont have time to read through the other pages of discussion and even if I did it's worth mentioning twice:
FINALLY a stop to the speculation on V's 4 words!!! I reckon even Rich was getting fed up with it coming up every time V spoke >.>

Though as a side note, I was reading War and XP's last night, and picked up on something I hadn't before... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html

"One's family must be defended when the need arises". To me the wording of that just shows how this has been planned out at least since the oracle thing if not before... Kudos to Rich! (Also, as Belkar points out "come on! This is obviously a trap of some sort." In this case, the dragon could easily have just been the bait for this bargain. I still wouldnt be surprised if the dragon's not actually planning on terrorising everyone too much, and instead just wanted V to make that deal because torturing V's immortal soul would be much more satisfying than imprisoning an innocent's)

EDIT: Just wanted to acknowledge the above poster... I was never a big fan of Roy's, but as has been rightfully pointed out he was the only thing keeping them together... This arc really has been about how important Roy is, and thanks for pointing it out :smallbiggrin:

[Lunaya]

:smalleek:

*Looks down at the first line of her sig*

:smallsigh: I am officially in mourning.

[Super_slash2]

The sad part is, if you look at V's face as he's about to touch the blue orb, he looks sad. He most likely knows himself that he shouldn't be doing this but it's too late to turn back now.

Even sadder is that till they told him about the alternative, he WAS doing for selfless reasons. Further proof you need to gag fiendish deal-makers on sight.

Also, I found it weird that that fiend mentioned it was from The Matrix - it was a little jarring. Anyone who's seen the movie would get it ajnd anyone who hadn't, wouldn't have gotten it anyway. It just seemed odd to explicitly mention it.

Great comic though. I loved the panels where they look down upon V, very dramatic.

Now if it turns out to be like Star Wars and V winds up failing to protect his family and/or hurts and/or drives them away himself, then that'd make this whole thing that ALOT sadder.

[DrivinAllNight]

Cool episode, loved how it ended in a big piece of bubble gum at the end there. Does that mean V is in a very sticky situation?:smallsmile:

[Z-dan]

Also, I found it weird that that fiend mentioned it was from The Matrix - it was a little jarring. Anyone who's seen the movie would get it ajnd anyone who hadn't, wouldn't have gotten it anyway. It just seemed odd to explicitly mention it.


I found that whole part (well, Qarr's response at least) a homage to This clip (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/5-second-movies/118-matrix)

[aka Argent]

Everyone defending V is missing the point - The Fiends had no reason to give V a plan that wouldn't work. In fact, the plan had to be possible AND for V to know it would work so that they could remove every single defense V might have to the gods at the end of hir life. V's motivation for power at the end was to have the power so V and no other could do the job.

Second, am I the only one who actually read some of the product warnings of the Soul Splice? "May make you feel omnipotent", that's demon speak for "Power Mad", i.e. V is not going to let go of that splice after a few seconds like s/he is planning. V is going to keep it up as long as possible, maybe even go so far as to head to Azure City alone because s/he feels s/he can do everything alone.

V is getting set up to be the next Evil Overlord unless something happens to stop it.

[Fri]

Aarindarius is friggin awesome. My favourite character now, maybe even surpassing Baron Pineapple.

[tutti]

I, too, think this comic is a cut below the others in terms of quality. While the right beings have come around naturally as a part of the story's progression, the wrong reasons seem thrown in at the last moment because the writer remembered that they were supposed to be there. The viability of the alternative solution is more or less irrelevant, it still feels thrown in just to fulfill the prophecy storywise.

[Warren Dew]

Everyone defending V is missing the point - The Fiends had no reason to give V a plan that wouldn't work. In fact, the plan had to be possible AND for V to know it would work so that they could remove every single defense V might have to the gods at the end of hir life. V's motivation for power at the end was to have the power so V and no other could do the job.

They had a very good reason to provide a plan that wouldn't work: they couldn't come up with a plan that would work. As long as Vaarsuvius doesn't use the plan, it doesn't matter whether it would work, anyway.

Besides, I think you're mistaken about the fiends. They don't care about Vaarsuvius's soul; they want to be able to intervene at an appropriate point in the battles around the final gate. The whole "plan" is likely just a way to avoid addressing Vaarsuvius's real misconception: that they only get the soul after death.

[BarGamer]

c'mon. Think of something reasonable.

I mean, V doesn't even have a Time Egg, and who knows where he's gonna get 40 Silver Points to get a dopple-doll.

You, sir, just won the internet. Or at least the portion of it that is dedicated to all things Chrono Trigger. Bravo!

[Balgus]

I like how the fiends gave V a glimmer of hope that they could possibly not be necessary... and when V was about to take the bait and disreagrd their offer.. they draw V back n with a "not your intelligence" jib which olays at V's ego... and after months of no sleep... Vs judgement is a little off.

I have to give it to them, the dragon found a great time to strike... but the fiends found porbably the best moment in all Vs life to make the offer.

[Winthur]

"By the power of Grayskull!!!" :smallbiggrin:

[The Minx]

If this strip was a game, <snip>

Except that it is not. :smallsmile:

[xanaphia]

I think that omnipotence doesn't mean power-crazedness. It just means the idea that you are all powerful and can do anything.

Also, I bet you that the bit about no divine magic comes back to bite V in the face.

[ss49]

Has anyone already posted the possibility that
the IFCC and the dragon are connected? Either as a team or the IFCC pointing the dragon in Vaarsuvius' direction?

[Edna]

Noooooooo!

:smallfrown:

Edna

[Z-dan]

Has anyone already posted the possibility that
the IFCC and the dragon are connected? Either as a team or the IFCC pointing the dragon in Vaarsuvius' direction?

try to read posts that are on the same page as where you're posting...


"In this case, the dragon could easily have just been the bait for this bargain. I still wouldnt be surprised if the dragon's not actually planning on terrorising everyone too much, and instead just wanted V to make that deal because torturing V's immortal soul would be much more satisfying than imprisoning an innocent's"
:smallwink:

[Bedinsis]

Wow, this strip was great.

In the third last panel, my inital thought was that V was thinking "Huh, so this is how soul splice power looks like." However, I now believe s/he thought words to the effect of "Wait, did I just say four words?"

Also, some speculation:
The lines:
"So if you kill someone, they stay dead." #634
"A necromancer who casually ended lives with but a thought." #633
"Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year." #572
"Your death shall be swift and silent- like the owl." #323
I hope I'm wrong about this.

[silvadel]

I find it amazing how expressive Rich can make stick figures. Very well done depicting the phases V goes through.

[Pronounceable]

There's your four words. Now SHUT IT. (Sadly, I think not even this is going to put an end to the effin speculation about the effin four words...)


In other news, this is an excellent strip. Especially the fiends' removal of V's self deception about sacrifice AND preventing him from realizing that contract doesn't say "payment after death" with one fell swoop is beautiful. The actual plan they outline is dumb, sure, but would a salesman (even if he's an ordinary guy and not e.g. an incarnation of evil) tell a potential customer about a better and cheaper product?

It's time for a scene change...

[Single_Lupus]

Oh V... what have you done? :smallfrown:

[jmucchiello]

I, too, think this comic is a cut below the others in terms of quality. While the right beings have come around naturally as a part of the story's progression, the wrong reasons seem thrown in at the last moment because the writer remembered that they were supposed to be there. The viability of the alternative solution is more or less irrelevant, it still feels thrown in just to fulfill the prophecy storywise.
If it's tacked on at the end, can you explain why various posters here and elsewhere OotS is discussed have said V's wrong reason is Hubris? I know I said a couple weeks again in whatever strip has the "I must not fail" line. (Can't look it up with the server so slow now). And I'm not the only person who said it. To me the wrong reason has been telegraphed since we found out V stopped trancing to stop the memories/nightmares of the fall of Azure City when soldiers asked V to help and he could only turn invisible and watch them die.

To the "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." folks: If the wrong reason is hubris, then the right words must involve that pridefulness. DGoW may have been said in arrogance. But did not involve hubris at all. "I must not fail" from a few strips back and today's "I-- I must succeed" are basically the same. One of them must be the 4 words.

[mcv]

Evil! Devious, devious evil.

Let me just say that I love how this comic turned out. He's not selling (or leasing, perhaps) his soul because it's his only option. The fiends make it really clear to him that he does have a choice: admit defeat and rescue his children in a (very gruesome) way where he has to depend entirely on others, or taste ultimate arcane power and fix the problem himself.

And all of a sudden he's not selling his soul to save his children, but to prove that he can save his children. So he won't have to admit defeat and depend on an imp, a dwarf and his master to do his work for him.

He's selling his soul for power an control, and he knows it.

It's a brilliant comic. Realy clever, this intricate web Giant has woven.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Whoa, indeed! :smalleek:

And once again, the old saying is proven true:

Pride goeth before the fall. I know I'm not the only one that thinks V made the wrong choice. I have kids of my own, and I still think I would have gone with Option B.

[Trazoi]

If it's tacked on at the end, can you explain why various posters here and elsewhere OotS is discussed have said V's wrong reason is Hubris? I know I said a couple weeks again in whatever strip has the "I must not fail" line. (Can't look it up with the server so slow now). And I'm not the only person who said it. To me the wrong reason has been telegraphed since we found out V stopped trancing to stop the memories/nightmares of the fall of Azure City when soldiers asked V to help and he could only turn invisible and watch them die.
My problem is that the alternative could easily be rejected for reasons other than hubris. Even if it's likely to succeed, it's hard to quickly agree to a plan which starts with cutting off your own head. :smalleek: After that, there's a lot of steps at which failure could come at any point. And V knows the clock is ticking. In that situation, given those two choices, I would probably go with the deal too. I just couldn't trust something to go wrong, and I would not go through with cutting my own throat with that much uncertainty.

If instead the alternative cost was something less drastic, like V trading all his magical power to contact his master directly, then the hubris link would be more direct.

I'm hoping that the true point of V's fall comes later, when V has more of a choice of power over sacrifice in a less stressful situation.

Edit: Although I do admit that if the IFCC were putting this plan forwards as a sort of mental equivalent to a kick to the gut for V, then it works quite well. :smallbiggrin:

[Oracle_Hunter]

Man, and I thought Rich's depictions of villainy in Start of Darkness was as evil as he got. :smalleek:

An excellent denouement for The Temptation of Vaarsuvius mini-arc. It's a pity the IFCC doesn't show this sort of attention to detail when handling Nale :smalltongue:

[J.Gellert]

Wow... Aarindarius is badass... One-shotting a teleporting intruder without looking up from his book is awesome, but doing the same to a dragon...

He's only appeared in 2 panels (in speculations!) and he's already overshadowing Xykon and V-man together. Love it :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

Everyone on this board who is nitpicking this (again admittedly needlessly complicated) plan might have a point if V raised an objection to it.

But he didn't.
The saying is "silence does not give consent." V's silence does not mean he considers the plan in the least valid.


In fact, V had already turned down far simpiler options that the Imp had given him.
With solid reasons for doing so. They would not work.


If V had already turned down simpler suggestions from Qarr (see above) why does anyone think that V wouldn't turn down another simple offer from the IFCC? He would have thought of some (probably weak) excuse and handwaved the offer away.
But the IFCC didn't make a simple suggestion, they made a quite complex one, with obvious dangers. There were on the face of it powerful reasons to reject it.



Has anyone already posted the possibility that

the IFCC and the dragon are connected? Either as a team or the IFCC pointing the dragon in Vaarsuvius' direction?

Yes, and it is routinely rejected as excessively complex, not supported by the text, and potentially disastrous to the plotters.



- The Fiends had no reason to give V a plan that wouldn't work. In fact, the plan had to be possible AND for V to know it would work so that they could remove every single defense V might have to the gods at the end of hir life.

But the plan did not do that. On the facts that we know, it is clear the plan has a major chance of failure, and on the facts we assume we know, those odds become quite high.



Reasons the alternate plan would almost certainly work:
1. If Qarr dropped off Vaarsuvius's head, along with a note explaining the situation, as the demons suggest in the comic, that would allow the owner of the Sending scroll to immediately relay the message to Vaarsuvius's master, who would be able to confirm the existence of a nearby dragon fairly quickly once alerted. So it would take far less than ten minutes.
Sending has a 10 minute casting time, as the comic has already shown. So 10 minutes is absolute minimum time. And that assumes Durkon has it racked. Even then, there are a variety of maybe's and just plain time wasters. Just how long is it going to take to behead V? V can't do it, and so Qarr must finish the job, which could take him quite a while, given his size. The party members are known to have lousy spot rolls, and may not notice that note. And it takes time to read it and debate what to do about it. ... So this plan takes on the long side of a half-hour, if it doesn't fall apart entirely.


2. If Qarr survives dropping off V's head and the message (which shouldn't be too hard with Teleport as a spell), V would owe him big time. It's therefore in Qarr's personal interests to cut off and deliver V's head. And as a servant of Lawful Evil who has promised to assist V, I'm doubtful as to whether Qarr can refuse an order or break alignment.
Qarr can definitely refuse a suicidal order here, and teleporting to a ship with imficidal paladins on it may well qualify.


3. Durkon, Elan, and the Sapphire Guard are capable of doing what V needs them to do in sufficient time.
In the sense of physical possibility, maybe. In the sense of ready and likely, no.


Is it more convoluted? Sure. But this is the classic moral choice of "doing the easy thing vs. doing the right thing."
But one can question here which is which. Risking your soul to fiends hardly sounds easy. Nor does it sound right to try such a silly scheme.

[FatR]

My problem is that the alternative could easily be rejected for reasons other than hubris.
I agree. The fiends' "alternative" is a fake choice, the only reason V does not reject it vocally, as completely unfeasible, like h** own previous failed ideas is the lack of time to think it over and give an answer. It is not only still wholly possible to take the fiends' offer because it, you know, is far more likely to work, I'm not sure how hubris figures into decision either way, as the power of the soul thingy is explicitly not V's own. If this decision is supposed to be the decisive point of V's fall, I cannot help but second the notion, that he was effectively railroaded into falling, with the last actual choice being decision to leave the refugees' fleet.

[Undead Prince]

In fact, V had already turned down far simpiler options that the Imp had given him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html) V was in a hurry to sell his soul (see the very next strip), but the IFCC wanted to make sure that V knew why he was doing it.

Quoted for Truth! Deep down, V was actually viewing the predicament with his family as an excuse to get his hands on some Ultimate Arcane Power. The way he phrases it - "I have no choice but to do this horrible thing in order to save my poor, poor family" struck me as so hypocritical. When Lee says "No, you have other options", V is like "Awww, man, what the hell? I was so ready to sell my soul here, why did you spoil my moral reasoning?" And then he's forced to come out, and admit it - all he really wants is personal power and success.

V for eVil!

[RMS Oceanic]

I agree with the people saying that this was the Fiends' way of telling V "Who are you kidding? This is all about your pride." and stripping away the lies one tells to oneself in times like these.

[tutti]

If it's tacked on at the end, can you explain why various posters here and elsewhere OotS is discussed have said V's wrong reason is Hubris? I know I said a couple weeks again in whatever strip has the "I must not fail" line. (Can't look it up with the server so slow now). And I'm not the only person who said it. To me the wrong reason has been telegraphed since we found out V stopped trancing to stop the memories/nightmares of the fall of Azure City when soldiers asked V to help and he could only turn invisible and watch them die.

No no, it's quite obvious that Vaarsuvius has had his excessive pride in magic for a while. What feels tacked on is how the choice is turned from saving Vaarsuvius' family or not to what his reasons are for doing it.

[Mjoellnir]

Sorry, but the alternative is ridiculous. The Dragon has already teleported to V's house or very near to it. But he should have the time to behead himself, get his head teleported by an Imp (who will probably get killed for his help which isn't a good choice either, even though he's an evil creature), get ressurected (why the hell has Durkon prepared Raise Dead??? If he hasn't he has to rest for 8 hours first...), explain everything to Durkon, and let Durkon cast sending, so that his master can teleport to where the Dragon did how many rounds before? The teleports have a casting time of one standard action. Raise Dead has a casting time of 1 minute (10 rounds) Sending has a casting time of 10 minutes (100 rounds). A dragon needs one round to kill three low-level npc's. Soul Bind has a casting time of one standard action, so two rounds for binding V's children.

I would instantly touch the blue orb too. Teleport to my house one standard action. Battle against a normal dragon with the power of three epic spellcasters would take a maximum of 5 rounds. After that V should let go. He probably won't, but if he would his soul only has to serve the forces of evil for 15 rounds, which is 1,5 minutes.
Another alternative would be to use the soul splice to try to lay waste to the lower planes. He would get killed, but the IFCC would be done for.

[Hallavast]

I think it's very clear that personal power and success is not all V wants. (S)he obviously cares to some degree about his children and maybe even his mate.

Also, I doubt "option B" is a false option. That is to say, I would wager V trusts it would turn out exactly as it was described to hir. To that effect, I think V chose "option A" because of the obvious merits of that option; not because of any inherent flaws in "option B". If "option B" were false, then it would detract from the nature of the dilema. There are a number of (logical) possible flaws in "option B", but the deal has been set up in the strip in such a way that I can't accept "option B" as an "obviously wrong choice". What would be the point in that, after all?

Further, to those who've said the power V would receive from "option A" is not his own... I would say that if you buy power with your soul, then that power is yours (bought and paid for) for the duration of the deal. V will have obtained it through the merits of hir own being since (s)he would not be able to purchase it if certain fiends were not so interested in hir particular soul in the first place.

Finally, IF "I ... I must succeed." are the four words, then I must ask why. Rich, why did you choose those over "I must not fail"? The latter is simple, direct (poignant, even), and conveys the same idea. The emphasis and tension involved with the "four words" has aesthetically charged me against using one of the words redundantly. If you did this out of some kind of spite against the posters here, then shame on you for allowing us to hinder your artistic poise. If not, then I beg of you to educate me.

Now, with all that said,

I believe these are not the four words. I believe this is a clever ruse, and I believe this power is not the ultimate one that V is seeking.

I am ready for more.

[Selene]

Start of Darknessby the time the speech is given in Start of Darkness, Redcloak has no real choice; he's already killed his brother. In the present case, Vaarsuvius does have a real choice,

Are you part of Redcloak's PR team? Because there was some serious spin on that statement.

Redcloak = cleric = raise dead. Instead, he chose animate dead. Like Xykon said, there's always a choice, Redcloak was just too chickens**t to make it.

No offense intended toward you. I just hate Redcloak a lot for those very reasons. LOL.


Also, I found it weird that that fiend mentioned it was from The Matrix - it was a little jarring. Anyone who's seen the movie would get it ajnd anyone who hadn't, wouldn't have gotten it anyway. It just seemed odd to explicitly mention it.

I saw the movie and didn't get it until he made the comment. But then I didn't actually like the movie, so maybe that's why.


Lee, you have done well today.

[TedEBearNC]

After that V should let go. He probably won't, but if he would his soul only has to serve the forces of evil for 15 rounds, which is 1,5 minutes.

I've been wondering...
If there is a possibility that V won't be able to let go? What if the splice works both ways? There are three other souls involved in the splice and what if, once they have access to a body again, they don't want to relinquish it? It could even be part of the IFCC's plan to accrue more time on V's soul or to have another three powerful casters at their disposal.

[Tokiko Mima]

Awesome comic! :)

My only observation is to wonder which spell Durkon has a scroll? Is it Resurrection or Sending? Because I think he'd need a scroll of both to pull off Plan B, but the comic implies a singular scroll.

[Mjoellnir]

I've been wondering...
If there is a possibility that V won't be able to let go? What if the splice works both ways? There are three other souls involved in the splice and what if, once they have access to a body again, they don't want to relinquish it? It could even be part of the IFCC's plan to accrue more time on V's soul or to have another three powerful casters at their disposal.

Interesting idea. I hope that won't happen, after all they promised him complete control.

Edit: Hm... Now that I think about it "Mr. Burlew has pulled a Countdown.":smallbiggrin: (After the Star Trek Countdown comics where time suddenly runs a lot faster for dramatic reasons.)

[Delgarde]

Well played, Evil Fiends. Well played. It really wouldn't be a good Faustian bargain (drama-wise) if the elf literally had no other options.

Indeed... it's a most ingenious trap. With no other option, V could justify using evil as a tool, without actually being evil. But with it, there's no escape - V is choosing the evil path for no better reason than weakness of character, an inability to admit to small mistakes now leading to greater ones.

As you say, well played. This is really putting the boot in.

[MeTheGameGuy]

Time Egg

Uh... wasn't it called a Chrono Trigger? The game was named after it, remember? Although, maybe it was renamed in the DS port...

Anyway, Ultimate Arcane Power should not be pink - it isn't V's magic. It should either be fiend-coloured, or three-souls-being-spliced-coloured, because the magic is that of the fiends, magicing the souls at V.

Otherwise, awesome comic. :smallsmile:

[RolyPoly]

I agree; I think this is a pretty bad strip.

For while now, I've been thinking that V is being presented with a complete railroad. If this strip was a game, V's player would have good reason to be pretty unimpressed with the DM. Now, we get the strip to explain that V had an "alternative". But the "alternative" was less convincing than a Marvel comics retcon.

So the Imp would have to respect V's dying wish because it's lawful? Even if the order entailed doing something effectively suicidal? In a strip in which we've previously been encouraged not to see Alignment as a character strightjacket, that doesn't sound right. If the imp has even a little wiggle room on its Alignment, V cuts his / her head off for nothing, and his family get butchered.



Not so. V himself has taken several shots at the imp already, so from the imp's perspective the risk would be minimal, well worth it for a deal he wanted to make with V in the first place. He just has to pop out of hyperspace, drop the severed head of V on the deck and wave-hop out of range in an eyeblink.

Also, just for the record, the plan doesn't call for V to cut his own head off. That would just be silly. The imp removes the head after V has slit his own throat.



And where does this Resurrection spell come from exactly? If Resurrection is easy for Hinjo's people, how come they couldn't raise Therkla?


Couldn't? Why would Hinjo ~want~ to raise a half-orc ninja working for the bad guys? Elan has an, err, unique perspective in this matter.



We're supposed to think of the fleet as a group of survivors without the power that used to be in Azure City, but now we're told that they can just whip up a Resurrection at short notice?


If only some fraction of the wealth of Azure City was in the form of the necessary diamonds, easily salvaged from the wreck, or even stashed aboard the State Junk against just such a contingency. Oh, wait ...




To top off the developments that don't seem to gel with the backstory, we're suddenly introduced to the idea that V has a master who is magically far more powerful than V. Which raises the question of why V has not already sought out this master to learn more power from him or get his assistance. Why not call this master for help when Azure City was being attacked?


Again. Why would V's master be interested? Presumably, the Elves have their own concerns, and are not at the beck and call of the rag-tag fleet fleeing the Cylons, sorry, Hobgoblins.

Apart from that, why is V out in the world adventuring in the first place, instead of sitting at the feet of his/her master learning arcane power. My guess is that this is not one of those rhetorical questions, and when we find out exactly why he left home and why it took a clear and present threat to Vs family to make him think of going back we will have a much clearer view of what makes V tick.



This whole thing looks like it's been shoe-horned in so that V can still be judged as morally-compromised for taking the deal. It attempts to remove the possible reaction that V had no choice considering what would happen to his / her family. But it reads like a real wall-banger.

I know I'm raining on the parade, and I apologise to those who are enjoying OoTS, but... ugh.

Your arguments are not completely without merit, but the place where they have traction is between V's ears. He/She would certainly be rationalising much as you have done that the resurrected teleported severed head plan was not one-hundred percent guarranteed to work, and that the only way he could be sure of saving his family would be to do it himself. However, that's the whole point. When we are talking about his pride, it's not the wounded self esteem of a sad loser, it's more like Satan in Paradise Lost (or Bedazzled (Pete Cook that is, not Liz Hurley)), wedded to the principle of his own power. Might will make right, literally.

The question then becomes, what does V do with his power when he gets it, after he has swatted the Black Dragon (assuming she wasn't part of the con). The thing is that Xykon is, frankly, not too bright. There is a lot of truth in the commonly held prejudice against sorcerers, relying on power rather than intellect. A super-powered V will be a much more dangerous prospect, even if hisher intentions are good. The best case scenario is a titanic magical slugfest between two arcane superpowers, with the rest of the world caught in the middle.

All good then, from a story-telling persective.

[MickJay]

The alternative plan was complex, but perfectly workable; at least, it was presented as such be the fiends, in whose best interest was for V not to take that route. They merely needed V to realise that it was his pride, not family, that motivated accepting the deal, making it evil, rather than neutral. Even if the plan was less foolproof than the strip indicates, outlining it served its purpose.

There still is the tiny problem: the power V gained is not really his own, it's given to him by the devils; he's only more powerful as much as the fiends allowed him to be - it's hardly something he can honestly be proud of. It's not even real pride that motivated him, it was stupid pride.

I did suggest that V might want to use Qarr to kill and transport his kids to a safe place (which would definitely be much less complicated, but perhaps even more difficult to realise), but then again, even with resurrection available, ordering a devil to kill your own children would still be extremly difficult decision to make (and it would, again, be equal to admitting by V that his own power was limited).

As for the "this will end the 4 word theories" - want to bet? :smalltongue:

[Nevrmore]

Reasons the alternate plan would almost certainly work:
1. If Qarr dropped off Vaarsuvius's head, along with a note explaining the situation, as the demons suggest in the comic, that would allow the owner of the Sending scroll to immediately relay the message to Vaarsuvius's master, who would be able to confirm the existence of a nearby dragon fairly quickly once alerted. So it would take far less than ten minutes.
And exactly how long do you think it will take Vaarsuvius to author a note to that effect? Unless we're to assume that he just has one lying around for just such an occasion.


2. If Qarr survives dropping off V's head and the message (which shouldn't be too hard with Teleport as a spell), V would owe him big time. It's therefore in Qarr's personal interests to cut off and deliver V's head. And as a servant of Lawful Evil who has promised to assist V, I'm doubtful as to whether Qarr can refuse an order or break alignment.
You're making wild assumptions to support your argument. You can't just say "Qarr'll probably survive cause teleport amirite guys?"


3. Durkon, Elan, and the Sapphire Guard are capable of doing what V needs them to do in sufficient time. Just because V sees them as innately inferior to h**self, ability-wise, doesn't make it so. In fact, such a task would be playing to Elan's strengths- he would immediately ascertain the dramatically correct thing to do, and convince the others with his high Charisma score.
And I suppose while Elan is being his charming self, the dragon's just sitting outside the door to Vaarsuvius' house, waiting patiently for the heroes to swoop in and save the day?


Is it more convoluted? Sure. But this is the classic moral choice of "doing the easy thing vs. doing the right thing." V, having little faith in anyone's abilities but h** own, is a natural sucker for such a choice.
It's not a question of convolution though, it's of time. Plan A is touch orb, get power, teleport. That'll take, what, five seconds? How much longer will all the BS with killing himself and alerting his friends and writing letters take?

[isamaru]

All the more reason why I find the choice presented in #634 to be a wall-banger.
Yes and I think it's supposed to be that way. It's a common technique among the sellers: they present you their product along with obviously worse option, which is supposed to be the only one. Of course, it never is the only one, but it satisfies the customer's need for alternatives and he is happy to choose their product. The presented story makes sense from this perspective

[Nevrmore]

Yes and I think it's supposed to be that way. It's a common technique among the sellers: they present you their product along with obviously worse option, which is supposed to be the only one. Of course, it never is the only one, but it satisfies the customer's need for alternatives and he is happy to choose their product. The presented story makes sense from this perspective
Except that the reason the fiends give for the second option being the less viable one isn't "But that plan obviously won't work," it's "But then you'd have to admit fault." The narrative itself implies that the plan would work just fine, whereas common sense dictates that it's stupid as all get-out.

[Kaytara]

Something I'm surprised no one mentioned. The devils' say that, in the alternative plan, Aarindarius would stop the dragon if not before V's family's demise, then certainly before she's had time to Soul Bind them and leave.

For one thing, Soul Binding them and leaving are only three more rounds. Why would the devils be certain that, if late for one thing, V's master wouldn't be late for the other?
But more to the point, note that this plan still has the admitted potential of failing to save V's family from a slow, torturous, gruesome death. V's mate and kids will still have suffered through everything but the Soul Bind. This is also a very, very good reason to pick a plan that does not take that much of a risk.


That was V's fault for speaking with the gruff (and low Charisma) Dwarf instead of the sympathetic and understanding (and high Charisma) Bard. :smalltongue:

Still in the strip you are (I think) talking about, look at how quickly Elan ends a spat between Durkon and V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html). V should know that if he wanted to open up, that he needed to talk to Elan. Of even Lein. But allowing himself to be goaded by Durkon (who was right on the money with all of his observations about V in this and many upcoming strips, BTW)...


It's V's fault for talking to the high-Wisdom cleric, with whom he had, until that point, shared rather good relations and mutual trust? :smallconfused: Does not follow, especially since you're trying to arbitrarily relieve Durkon of all blame and instead place it on Vaarsuvius, while seeming to suggest that V should have partaken of Elan's limitless wisdom, instead.

Also, V did not seek Durkon out for advice. Durkon came to him and confronted him about it. Had they not been friends, Vaarsuvius would only have told him what he was doing, not of his own feelings on the matter. Instead, he trusted Durkon with a piece of his mind, so what Durkon did afterwards was a betrayal of V's trust and a low Charisma doesn't excuse it.

[Zeku]

I can't know if this has been mentioned, because the forum is unreadable with all this lag, but the best part of these last few strips is watching how everything these three fiends say is perfectly consistent with their alignment.

Everything they seem to care about, and everything they mention casually, all matches perfectly with

law: yellow
chaos: purple
'eh': orange

Great job on the writing there.

[Taekwondodo]

Also, some speculation:
The lines:
"So if you kill someone, they stay dead." #634
"A necromancer who casually ended lives with but a thought." #633
"Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year." #572
"Your death shall be swift and silent- like the owl." #323
I hope I'm wrong about this.

Probably, why would V think of killing Belkar right when he's fighting a dragon? or after. they haven't seen each other for ages.

[RMS Oceanic]

Also, V did not seek Durkon out for advice. Durkon came to him and confronted him about it. Had they not been friends, Vaarsuvius would only have told him what he was doing, not of his own feelings on the matter. Instead, he trusted Durkon with a piece of his mind, so what Durkon did afterwards was a betrayal of V's trust and a low Charisma doesn't excuse it.

"Betrayal" is the wrong word for what happened. Durkon was simply thinking like a Dwarf. Read #444 again: he acknowledges Roy's death is sad, but to Durkon, the overriding priority is his duty to the matter at hand. In #504 he was trying to tell the same thing to V: "Stop dwellin' onna past an' focus on wha's goin' on in fronta ye. Tha world's bigger th'n Haley an' Belkar."

[whitelaughter]

How about these four words?

That ... was ... absolutely ... awesome.

Truly!
:
:
:
Now, suppose V teleports home to find that Aarindarius is already aware of the threat to his apprentice's spouse and has disposed of Mamma Dragon?

[whitelaughter]

Quite frankly, if V were thinking *at all* clearly, he'd reject the deal since it leaves him with no way to resurrect his family (NO DIVINE MAGIC).
Actually, V will be able to bring back hir family with Clone spells: so long as plot permits, of course.

[Trazoi]

Something I'm surprised no one mentioned. The devils' say that, in the alternative plan, Aarindarius would stop the dragon if not before V's family's demise, then certainly before she's had time to Soul Bind them and leave.
That bit struck me more that the fiends didn't really know how well that plan would work. If the plan was foolproof, then they wouldn't have put in the "if you don't get there in time" clause. I'd have bailed out there, if I hadn't already bailed out at the "cut off your own head" part. (Seriously. Any plan that involves cutting off your head is a bad plan. :smallsmile:)

I know the speech was the fiends way of showing V that V's pride and unwillingness to trust others was his flaw, but I think V's got enough non-selfish reasons to not pick the "kill yourself" option. If option B were instead, say, lose a level but the fiends teleport V direct to Hinjo and Durkon, then that might be a little more sensible as an alternative. There wouldn't be the whole icky throat-cutting-and-head-chopping part, V wouldn't have to trust Qarr to complete his mission, and there wouldn't be any time delay or potential confusion with Team Hinjo figuring out what to do with a severed V head. V would have to weigh up a loss in spell power and loss of face against the juicy power option.

So yeah, if I were in V's pointy shoes I'd feel like this wasn't much of an option. If anything, V's hubris steering V down the wrong path really was the "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" moment. After leaving the fleet it's all been somewhat out of V's control.

[Sebastian]

I love how the fiends all jump to the same conclusion after "you could kill yourself". The exact same incredibly convoluted plan.

It is not so convoluted after all, the only dubious points are if the imp would do what you ask him to, and he should, after all he is not just lawful, he is a creature made of law (and evil), He have to keep his word once he give it (even if he can still twist it) all the rest follow quite logically.

[AlDjinn]

That's a pretty stupid way to shoehorn the whole "for all the wrong reasons" part of the prophecy in at the last minute. Anyone with common sense could see that it's not a matter of V's pride being tarnished, it's a matter of time; One solution will immediately grant him the power he needs to fend off the dragon. The other is a ridiculously circuitous plan that will most assuredly take longer than it has to. If I were in V's shoes I would have called the three fiends idiots for even suggesting the alternative.

It's not about whether it's the right thing to do, but much the opposite. The plan proposed has problems as to why it is the less attractive option, mainly the death of her children and the lower probability of success. That being said, the prophesy said "by saying the right 4 words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

That tells me that she is doing the right thing, just with the wrong motivations. If she has said something akin to "this is the only way my offspring may survive." before touching the orb, that would not be the "wrong reasons," but just because s/he must succeed with her magic (which is most likely what V was eluding to)...that is.

[whitelaughter]

It is not so convoluted after all, the only dubious points are if the imp would do what you ask him to,
Not a problem - although the plan doesn't require the imp to survive, all it need do is teleport above the ship and drop V's head, then teleport out again. A very low risk strategy.

[banjo1985]

That's it V, give in to the temptation. Then you can go out in a blaze of glory, so I at least won't dislike you as much as I have been for the last 50 or so strips.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Giant, If He Doesnt Have A Black Swazzy Pimp Robe I Am Never Reading This Again

[snafu]

Yeeeeeeesssssssss! Join the Dark Side! We have cookies! Super Saiyajin Kyuubi Vaarsuvius Majere, take a bow!

About the fiends' alternative plan: yeah, it's long, convoluted and full of potential failure modes. By the time it's all done the dragon might be long gone. Plus it begins with killing oneself and trusting the good nature of an imp. Not really the best plan in the world.

But it's a plan. V hasn't thought the plan through and rejected it on its merits or lack thereof. She hasn't really had time. The plan was never a serious proposal for action; it was only there to take away her moral confidence about what she was doing. Now V isn't making the deal in confidence that it's a noble sacrifice, the only way to save her family - she's making the deal in a state of doubt, wondering whether the fiends' plan might have worked, or if not, then whether its flaws might be amenable to correction, whether some other scheme might have come off in the end. And in that doubt, the final motivating factor that makes the decision is 'I must succeed!'

Some day she'll stand before whatever gods her people follow and be asked 'So, did you have to make that deal? Was there no other way?' And the answer now is going to have to be 'Well... actually, there probably was...'

[bluedolphin359]

Wow, this strip was great.

In the third last panel, my inital thought was that V was thinking "Huh, so this is how soul splice power looks like." However, I now believe s/he thought words to the effect of "Wait, did I just say four words?"

Agreed


Also, some speculation:
The lines:
"So if you kill someone, they stay dead." #634
"A necromancer who casually ended lives with but a thought." #633
"Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year." #572
"Your death shall be swift and silent- like the owl." #323
I hope I'm wrong about this.


Yes! I wasn't the only one who thought this!

[Carteeg_Struve]

*floored*

And okay... now for the major question... What would happen if someone drew this ultimate pink power through a doily? How could the Snarl not cower in fear from something that strong!?

[HandofShadows]

Very Good Strip.

The option presented by the fiends would have had a very small chance of working and the the risks are to high. Now that what V did is all that promising. It would not surprise me at all if V kills the dragon but accidentaly kills the mate and kids as well. Or goes nuts with the power. I think V's motivation is not of pride or even shame. It's fear and guilt. (The fiends assertaion is a logical fallacy, as there are more than the two reasons for V taking the action V did but they portay it as "either or". They did it to screw with V's already messed up head.) V failed big time in Azure City (or feels that ve has failed) and it leads to people dieing in large numbers right in front of vim. V feels guilty about failing those people and also feels guilty about having lived when they did not (survivors guilt mixed in with PTSD). V's fear is that vis family will die and be soul bound because ve failed again. Even though it's not really V's fault, about Azure City OR if the family is killed. Many times people blame themselves for things they had no control over.

[Lemarc]

Interesting that V appears to be speaking to herself when she says those words.

[Khatoblepas]

But it's a plan. ...the final motivating factor that makes the decision is 'I must succeed!'

This. The fact that the plan WOULD work is not the point in this case. It has to be plausable, but not more efficient/safer/more likely to work. The fiends, as I read it, reeled off the plan with such ease and synchronicity that it would have been hard to keep up with it, making it seem more possible than before. It just opens up the door that yes, there does exist another option (and might exist more, had V thought about it, like they did).

There is always another option... -:xykon:

Except that V took the easy way out. V couldn't think of a better plan. But if the fiends can think of one, then surely V could if given some more time.

Say, giving the Imp a scroll reading "V's Family in Danger, this is a description of Aarindarius(sp), send a Sending to him to fend off Black Dragon ASAP. Regards, V. *ARCANE MARK*"

That's, what, 3 rounds, max on V's part (Secret Page might be used, Arcane Mark, one round for Qarr to teleport)? Especially if he had been writing while the Fiends would have been talking to him. See? Another plan. The arcane mark proves it's V, the Imp might get killed but it doesn't matter, and V has to help find the unholy chalice. V did it with clever use of his magic, and owes very little.

Again, the point is not to show a working plan that definitely will work, but to show that V has options.

[Saint Nil]

At least now all of the 4 words arguments are over. Love the fiends antics though.:smallbiggrin:

[Lorin Wavine]

I liked how it finally made a distinct line where what were the wrong reasons (saving one's family I'd say is mostly considered a right one) with the reasons being having to admit magic failed and didn't come up with one's own idea.

Though I'm wondering if s/he will somehow use the scrolls that the Mother Dragon is going to bind the children souls with in a way that lets her or him have the soul splice for a longer period of time if not permanent, though there's two scrolls for three souls so there isn't anything to suggest it. I'm just wondering if it might work/be easier to control one soul rather than three.

[Eleutherius]

Up untill this point I though that the being V was going to gain power from was Redcloak who would eventually give up on using Xykon to controle the gates and opt for a more lawful spellcaster. That would have been a twist to remember.

[deworde]

Well.. you know it's not just pride. I mean, cutting off your own head is a bit harder than you'd think, even if you know you'll be raised. Not to mention betting your life that a lawful creature wouldn't commit one chaotic act is pretty much pushing it. V's simply making darned sure that no matter what he stops the dragon.

See, this is the interesting thing.
Vaarsuvius' idea has the benefit of simplicity. All he has to do is tie his soul to three of the most evil beings ever to walk the Earth, take their incomprehensible power into a civilian area and use this power to murder a mother who wants to avenge her dead children. Get weapon, kill something.
The fiend's suggestion is far more complicated. He has to trust the imp to help him, he has to trust his friends to raise him, he has to trust to his master's power to stop the dragon and protect his loved ones. Never mind that these are trustworthy people who'd do all that willingly, the level of trust required in those around him is extraordinary.

But that's one of the differences between "Good" and "Evil". Good is social. It means trusting that those around you are worth your time to help and you can trust them to help you in return. Evil is selfish. It's being more confident in your own abilities than those of your peers.
The song of Evil is "You are important. You are special. You are exceptional. You deserve better. You can do things that other people can't. You should get away with more than other people would."

The people who are saying the plan is complex are wrong. Get part of Vaarsuvius' dead body to Durkon. Everything falls into place from there. Hell, he could even take a note with the dead body for extra security.
But he'd still have to place his trust in others. And that's hard, and it's scary, and it's the one of the worst parts of being a Good person. Much easier to accept damnation.

Wow, that was preachy. Awesome comic, though.

[slayerx]

Y'know, i didn't like how blunt this comic was...
I mean, i know it's important for us to realize what the "wrong reasons" are, but i think the delivery of it could have been much better... i mean i feel like i just had the information hammered into my head... there's the storytelling concept of "show don't tell" and this is a blunt example of "telling" us...

What i think i would have preferred, is probably V coming up with this second plan himself, and then getting read to act upon it, but then have numerous thoughts cross his mind "can i really just go crawling back to the dwarf", "what would my master think" and stuff like that... in the end, his pride wins him over and he ends up taking up the fiend's deal just so he does not have to face Durkon or his master in his time of ultimate failure... the wrong reasons, but if written well, delivered better... though some minor rewriting in earlier strips would have been good to help set this up

[Kaytara]

But that's one of the differences between "Good" and "Evil". Good is social. It means trusting that those around you are worth your time to help and you can trust them to help you in return. Evil is selfish. It's being more confident in your own abilities than those of your peers.
The song of Evil is "You are important. You are special. You are exceptional. You deserve better. You can do things that other people can't. You should get away with more than other people would."

The people who are saying the plan is complex are wrong. Get part of Vaarsuvius' dead body to Durkon. Everything falls into place from there. Hell, he could even take a note with the dead body for extra security.
But he'd still have to place his trust in others. And that's hard, and it's scary, and it's the one of the worst parts of being a Good person. Much easier to accept damnation.

Wow, that was preachy. Awesome comic, though.

You have a point, but the problem is that the fiends' plan does not only ride on having to trust others (which, by the way, V does not seem to have a problem with, as getting someone to help was one of the first things he suggested to Qarr). It mainly rides on speed. There is any number of small things that could critically delay this plan. Qarr could find a loophole in V's hastily given orders (which shouldn't be hard), Durkon could be in the middle of a meeting, or be out on another diplomatic mission, or any other number of things that would make him unable to act quickly enough.
And heck, even the fiends admit that V's family may already be dead by the time V's master arrives, they just assert that surely there'll still be enough time to prevent the Soul Bind. But V's mate will already have been skinned for a hat and V's children will have been slowly eaten alive by the dragon. Can you honestly blame Vaarsuvius for choosing a plan that is much more straightforward and is practically guaranteed to succeed as long as success is still possible?

There is also the chance that the children would not consent to being Resurrected - after all, that's what happened to Roy's brother, and he died in an accident, and wasn't tortured to death by a monster in a fashion that would leave anyone unwilling to return, child or not.

[Warren Dew]

Are you part of Redcloak's PR team? Because there was some serious spin on that statement.

Redcloak = cleric = raise dead. Instead, he chose animate dead. Like Xykon said, there's always a choice, Redcloak was just too chickens**t to make it.

That's not a realistic choice.

Xykon is right there. If Redcloak were to raise his brother at that instant, Right Eye would survive for maybe one round. If Redcloak manages to disguise Right Eye by regenerating his eye - extremely unlikely, given the situational awareness Xykon has shown - then Xykon goes ahead and kills all the goblins, just to make sure, as predicted.

At most he can refuse to reanimate Right Eye, and leave him dead. It's not clear to me that's an improvement.


No offense intended toward you. I just hate Redcloak a lot for those very reasons. LOL.

I think there's plenty of reason to dislike him well before that scene. Things like

Start of Darknesskilling his brother in the first place, or, hey, agreeing to help an evil god threaten to destroy the universe.

[MickJay]

At least now all of the 4 words arguments are over. Love the fiends antics though.:smallbiggrin:

Uh, look around the forum, two new threads where people are already arguing that these weren't the "real" 4 words :smalltongue:

It will probably take two or three more strips of repeating that for the purposes of the comic - yes, this is the ultimate arcane power, yes, these were the right four words, yes, V was the right being, yes, these were all the wrong reasons... seriously, it's because such things need to be explicitly stated time and again, the real action is happening slower than it could :smalltongue:

I just love the theory that the strip's title is "The Wrong Reasons" because it hints that these were the wrong wrong reasons (i.e. not the ones mentioned in the prophecy).

[Prowl]

I would just like to say I am SO glad that this particular debating point is finally closed.

[Erloas]

These are the 4 words, and anyone who doesn't believe so will never believe any 4 words are the words without the Giant specifically coming out and saying they are. Which he has all but done anyway.
What more could you want to show these are the 4 words? The oracles head popping up in the corner of the comic saying "yep, those are the words."


As for the wrong reasons... Yes the alternative plan is very convoluted and risky, but V didn't make the choice because of that reason. V made no indications that he discarded the other plan because it was too risky, had a high chance of failure, or would take too long; all of which are fairly true and likely. Those however weren't the reasons for choosing the path V chose.

Besides, for this to not be what the oracle was talking about it would mean that V would have to run into another situation where he is offered a choice of ultimate arcane power, which seems highly unlikely.


The only real question I have left is if the dragon was acting completely on its own and the fiends just took advantage of that, or if the fiends were working with the dragon. Maybe just something as simple as giving her information, or maybe giving her the idea of eating and trapper V's children rather then just eating V.

[motub]

I've gotta say that what I'm enjoying about this "discussion"-- at least in the first four pages of the thread-- is this assumption that a) because the alternative plan was "convoluted", it was less likely to succeed than b) an at-least-as-convoluted "deal with the devil" (splice three souls onto "mine", then hold the splice under my control for as long as I can, then timeshare my soul to the devil as payback for the initial operation? Right, that's not convoluted), which depends on V's personal strategy skills to accomplish the actual goal of saving the family.

People, just because V now has "ultimate arcane power", there is no reason to believe that hir success is assured.

We know that V believes this, although I don't quite know why, since the heart of the matter is that shi has already failed (in hir own opinion, and some of those times, objectively as well) a number of times.

Apparently V is under the impression that shi simply didn't have a big enough gun.

But we all know that a bigger gun is not all that much help if you're a poor shot to begin with. And while V has indeed pulled off some nice trick shots, shi's ... screwed up, shall we say, often enough to call her basic strategic competence into question. If shi hadn't, we wouldn't even be in this situation of having Mama so p.o.'d in the first place.

Maybe the alternate plan was unlikely to succeed.... but this plan is no better, if not worse.

And I don't think it's going to work. I think V will/has acquired "ultimate arcane power".... but shi will fail to save hir family. And then shi will be out of excuses.... it will really be all hir fault. Not the fault of the power shortage. Hirs. And there will be... dare I say it? Of course I dare... hell to pay. Both literally and figuratively.

[Bongos]

Well this sucks, I've been rooting for the Ancient Black Dragon mother the whole time.:smallfurious:


I don't think V is going to get what he expects, when something is too good to be true it usually is, especially when it comes from the devil, the demon and the daemon.:smallwink:

[Spoomeister]

Again, the point is not to show a working plan that definitely will work, but to show that V has options.

And one point further than that, that I haven't seen yet:

The point is to give an already distracted, exhausted, harried V something just barely plausible enough, to make V not think clearly, accept in a rush, and tip V over from "must save family" to "must save face".

Before these guys' spiel, V was calmly accepting of his fate, and nobly choosing to do this for family. For family, he will find inner strength, and ride this out as long as it takes. No frustration, no hesitation. He could probably hang on for days.

After his spiel, V is now hurriedly jumping in to save his own pride. He must not fail. He must not fail. So when the arcane power is barely manageable and he's just barely holding on, his thought is not "I've got to save them" but "don't blow it!". Instead of doing something positively and thinking positive about the situation, he's going to be in constant fear and doubt the entire time he's got the power.

So the spiel and the rush job just proves that the 3 guys just want this as a proof-of-concept. They don't want V to be so powerful that he could leave the splice going for a good long time and maybe do something out of their control, or that they didn't anticipate. Just long enough to prove they could collaborate and do something like this, then it shuts down neatly.

If the 3 guys wanted V's soul for a good long time, they would have left well enough alone when V went to accept. The 3 guys just want this proof of concept to work for its own reason.

Besides: think ahead a couple MORE steps. Plot speculation:

Wouldn't it be something if they do the splice... V has the power... V panics and fails to save his family... the power goes away... and then V comes back begging and pleading to try it again, once-in-a-lifetime be damned? Wouldn't V be willing to do anything, submit to anything, agree to any deal at that point? Wouldn't the 3 guys have a chance to REALLY use V then?

[Carnivorous_Bea]

I'm with the boo, hiss, railroading crowd on this one. :smallyuk: It seems like a large number of highly contrived situations have been thrown into the comic since Azure City, and all of them are jarring to me, at least:

1. Belkar the Invulnerable: despite being cursed to throw up every 2 seconds or so, Belkar somehow survives around 9 months of being unable to eat or drink; the comic was set up to make it look like it was only overnight, but in fact, the other, simultaneous storylines reveal that it's been about 8 months (specifically, the two Azure City NPCs going from "let's get a cup of coffee" to "expecting a baby soon" during the same time period.).

2. Haley and Belkar surrender to the people on whose neck they've planted their foot: the Thieves' Guild is basically wiped out, and their highest-level member, Bozzok, is within moments of death; then Celia comes in, babbling, and not only does Haley show mercy to Bozzok, but she practically surrenders to people she had at her mercy, and acts like she was the one who was defeated (needing to give up her money, etc.), simply because some blue twit says "jump."

3. Vaarsuvius railroading: V gets thrown into a series of highly-contrived failures just to "set him up" for an even-more-contrived fall. 4 Disintegrates fail to kill a CR 2 imp .... the dragon just happens to resist, counter, or simply be missed by every spell that V throws at her .... and then V is shown as refusing an absolutely mutton-headed "plan" and this is somehow all the wrong reasons. Heck, the four words aren't even said to the right being at the right time.

And to top it off, there hasn't even been a moment of humor since who the heck knows when. Frustration, yes, humor, no.

And yes, the fiends' 'plan' was absolutely stupid and unworkable.

V: "Oh, yes, here's a creature of pure evil that wants to get ahold of my soul after I die telling me to commit suicide and place myself in the custody of an infernal imp. Not to mention that I'm the only person who knows about this whole dragon affair, and if there's one glitch anywhere along the way, my family's going to be tortured to death, soulbound, and taken off somewhere in the nether reaches of the planes forever. How on earth could I get a better deal than that? It's nothing but hubris driving me to accept the solution that's direct and will actually work. Yeah, riiiiiiight."

V's got a choice between instantly acquiring magic which is firmly and surely able to kill the dragon, in exchange for belonging to a fiend for a minute or two after death (as V believes), ....

....or going off with some half-baked scheme about committing suicide, having his head sawed off by an imp, carried over hundreds of miles of ocean, to people who have no idea what's going on, who may or may not be able to resurrect him and who will have to then use a Sending spell to contact a wizard who may well refuse to help, and who might be sick, dead, or blocking all attempts to contact them (see also: "Sanctuary.")

It doesn't require pride to see that alternative 1 is viable and alternative 2 isn't.

And just because a fiend says "you're ONLY doing this for pride" doesn't make it true. They could also say that people only donate to cancer research because they're trying to salve their deep-seated guilt about secret cannibalism, but that doesn't make cancer research donations into an evil act, either, even after the donaters have heard them say it.

[LordSintax]

Wow... ok, looks like "balenorn" is officially off the table now...

And also wow... V has lost it. I'd take the "not in debt to diabolical enteties plan" were it me.

[Kish]

That's not a realistic choice.
The choice Xykon alluded to wasn't about raising or animating his brother, as such. Rather, it was about continuing to obey Xykon and even look out for his best interests when such involved more than obeying the letter of his orders, vs. plotting to destroy him, as Redcloak's brother did.

No, it's not a safe choice, but it's still a choice.

[Warren Dew]

The choice Xykon alluded to wasn't about ...

Not sure why you're tacking that on to a quote from my post. I was responding to Selene's explicit reference to

raise dead

as a choice, and not to anything Xykon more generally alluded to.

[Mr. Pin]

Woah. I agree that this definitely was a choice akin to the one Xykon gave Redcloak in SoD. But c'mon- Redcloak really did have a choice, whereas V's alternative was to kill herself, trust in a devil to teleport to a place where it would almost certainly die, trust some fiends' word that Durkon did have such a scroll, hope that Aarindius was ready and able to help (he could be busy, or on another plane, or dead, or have exhausted his spell slots) and capable of defeating the dragon (how powerful is this guy? surely not as powerful as V would be with the splice).

Anyways, with the time for throat-cutting, head-lopping, talking, sending/raising, more talking, and Aarindius teleporting, V's kids would almost certainly be dead. She still has a chance to save them this way, I think. what's she gonna cut with, anyways? and even if she has a knife, how long will it take for Qarr to sunder her head?

No, Vaarsuvius made the right choice.

[Dilvish]

Oh and who knew ultimate power would be pink?

Oh dear, does this mean the three fiends are in league with Mary Kay?!

"It's the Mary Kay Commandoes!... Even their Uzi's are pink!"

"Eat lead, snooknums!!!"

dilvish
have lab coat, will travel

[Arcadius798]

V has proven to me that he's not just a fool, but a greedy, self-centered fool, and afraid to admit mistakes

in my opinion, since he's officially sold his soul, and chose the way that three obviously lying demonic figures. and as a final nail in his coffin, i hope he finds his mate and his kids dead, maybe that'll snap him out of this selfish streak of his

[Tredrick]

Ok, we know it has been about 9 months from the fall of Azure City. In that time, Belkar and Haley spent months fighting with the Resistance. Belkar did not get cursed until he killed the Oracle, which was right before the dragon went to the Oracle and began following the fleet. We do not know how long ago that was, but the implication is that it was a short time ago.

The only plot hole I see is why did the Dragon not attack the fleet after their encounter with the tombstone demon. It is possible she did not see them expend a lot of their power on that island.

Also, Roy was back for a few weeks learning a new feat to disrupt spellcasting.

It would be nice to get a good timeline of events at some point. Maybe when these are collected into a book.

[Adeptus]

Absolutely brilliant again.

I like these fiends. Not letting Varsuuvius keep any illusions about what he is going to do and why.

[Silverraptor]

Ok after a night's sleep I've calmed down enough to stop harping on V. Sort of.

So does anyone notice that this comic is simular to the end of "Start of Darkess"?
How SoD ended, in my view point.
Xykon: "You killed your brother for the bad of the plan. Even if you rez him, he'll still hate you and remind you that you killed him. You don't have the guts to live with that reminder. Oh ya, who's the Lich? Go me, Go me. It's my birthday. And my present is a brand spanky new dungeon. Oh ya!"

As for this comic, the fiends say(in my view point again):
"Oh ya you can do this instead, but you won't because You don't have the elfhood enough to admit that your not invincible. Oh ya, who's the fiends? Go us, Go us. It's our birthday. And our present is a brand spanky new elf wizard we can control in the future. Oh ya!"


-----------
One more thing. Aarindarus is SO badass. I would really like to join a fan club for him!:smallbiggrin:

[Geno9999]

V's problem is that he/she is too prideful and thinks that magic can solve everything, without realizing that's the mage equivalent of a fighter thinking that violence can solve everything. this will destroy Him/Her in the future.