Why such a complicated plan?

[Querzis]

Could anyone please tell me why V would have to cut his head off when he just have to write on his robe a message to Durkon? He could put a few of his hairs too to make sure Durkon know its really V who send the message... Beside, once hes dead, what make him think Qarr would teleport him and his head to the fleet? If hes still alive though Qarr would make sure to do what V said and he would teleport with the message to Durkon. Its full proof, V woudnt need to kill himself and its faster since Durkon woudnt need to resurect V.

Its just that I really dont see how V is supposed to be taking the deal: «for all the wrong reasons» right now when the fiends plans would probably have failed. So he chosed the full proof deal that will get him ultimate arcane power instead of the plan about cutting his head off that could very well have failed, how is that supposed to be bad?

[Optimystik]

Could anyone please tell me why V would have to cut his head off when he just have to write on his robe a message to Durkon? He could put a few of his hairs too to make sure Durkon know its really V who send the message...

The problem there is that a scrap of robe and some hairs are things Qarr could have taken on his own. The heroes would therefore be unlikely to believe that the message is genuine.

Of course, V is probably smart enough to write a message that would make Durkon realize it's not a trick - writing something that only the two of them know, for instance - but then he'd probably have to come up with two such messages, one for Durkon and one for his master, in a very short time.


Beside, once hes dead, what make him think Qarr would teleport him and his head to the fleet? If hes still alive though Qarr would make sure to do what V said and he would teleport with the message to Durkon. Its full proof, V woudnt need to kill himself and its faster since Durkon woudnt need to resurect V.

As Lee explained, Qarr already agreed to help V. Imps don't lie; they might mislead you by omitting details, but if they say they'll do something, they do it.

[TheSummoner]

Also, the fiend's goal in mentioning the alternative plan was never that V would accept it, but to make V sell his soul knowing that he didn't have to. They wanted to make V's motivation one of pride lust for power rather than the more noble goal of saving his family's lives and souls. By throwing in that alternative option, they made V's self sacrafice into a selfish action.

So not only did the fiends gain the ability to control V in a crucial moment and get a chance at one of the gates, and also prove that the three evil allignments CAN cooperate, but they also pushed V's allignment closer (if not all the way) to evil since his deal with a devil (a demon, and a daemon) can no longer be justified.

[Querzis]

The problem there is that a scrap of robe and some hairs are things Qarr could have taken on his own. The heroes would therefore be unlikely to believe that the message is genuine.

Doesnt really matter that much, if Durkon get a message that ask him to send a sending to V, he'll do it, its not like he'll lose anything by doing that. And of course as you said, it woudnt be really hard for V to make sure Durkon know its him.


As Lee explained, Qarr already agreed to help V. Imps don't lie; they might mislead you by omitting details, but if they say they'll do something, they do it.

Rich tend not to follow the rules too closely. Beside, its not hard to omit the fact that hes gonna teleport your head to the fleet in a day or two (or a year or two, when there wont be any paladin in those ships that would kill him on sight).


Also, the fiend's goal in mentioning the alternative plan was never that V would accept it, but to make V sell his soul knowing that he didn't have to. They wanted to make V's motivation one of pride lust for power rather than the more noble goal of saving his family's lives and souls. By throwing in that alternative option, they made V's self sacrafice into a selfish action.

Well thats the problem, no they didnt. They are lots of things that could have gone wrong with the 'cut your head off' plan (not to mention that cutting your freaking head off isnt that easy regardless of pride). I dont blame V for not chosing that option because it was incredibly convoluted and circumstantial.

[TheSummoner]

Well thats the problem, no they didnt. They are lots of things that could have gone wrong with the 'cut your head off' plan (not to mention that cutting your freaking head off isnt that easy regardless of pride). I dont blame V for not chosing that option because it was incredibly convoluted and circumstantial.

Which is why they didn't mention a better alternative. They wanted the alternative to be bad because they didn't want V to accept it. So long as V thinks he has no choice but to sell his soul to save his family, it is self sacrafice. The moment there is an alternative, regardless of whether its likely to work or unreliable, the deed becomes less noble. Then, the fiends pressured V into fearing failure. They managed to make V accept the deal because of his pride, not because of his family.

[Optimystik]

Doesnt really matter that much, if Durkon get a message that ask him to send a sending to V, he'll do it, its not like he'll lose anything by doing that. And of course as you said, it woudnt be really hard for V to make sure Durkon know its him.

If he blows his sending scroll on contacting V, he won't be able to contact Aarindarius. If he contacts Aarindarius without V present, Aarindarius will likely just shut down the connection.


Rich tend not to follow the rules too closely. Beside, its not hard to omit the fact that hes gonna teleport your head to the fleet in a day or two (or a millenia or two).

This is one rule he is following. Qarr tells the truth.

Besides, it was originally Qarr's idea to teleport back to the fleet, not V's. Clearly the thought of being skewered by Lien on arriving wasn't enough to deter him from that course of action anyway.


Well thats the problem, no they didnt. They are lots of things that could have gone wrong with the 'cut your head off' plan (not to mention that cutting your freaking head off isnt that easy regardless of pride). I dont blame V for not chosing that option because it was incredibly convoluted and circumstantial.

And grafting the souls of three epic and thoroughly evil spellcasters onto your own isn't?

I will admit one flaw in the fiends' plan: rezzing V would take 10 minutes unless Durkon has a scroll for that too, and perhaps even then depending on how much Rich is playing with the rules. So a Rez and a sending would probably take the same amount of time as TWO sendings, with the added disadvantage of V needing to be dead first.

But assuming V did want to send a message to Durkon, what would he write it with? His own blood? His robes are red.

[Querzis]

If he blows his sending scroll on contacting V, he won't be able to contact Aarindarius. If he contacts Aarindarius without V present, Aarindarius will likely just shut down the connection.

I guess but once again, as you said yourself, its not like it would hard for V to make sure Durkon know its him. Otherwise, regardless of if V would be present or not, a sending spell just allow Durkon to speak to Arindarius.


This is one rule he is following. Qarr tells the truth.

And of course there is evidence of this in the comic? I'm not buying it because three fiends tell me.


Besides, it was originally Qarr's idea to teleport back to the fleet, not V's. Clearly the thought of being skewered by Lien on arriving wasn't enough to deter him from that course of action anyway.

Or he didnt thought about it until V pointed it out? Yeah I know, that would be too simple.


And grafting the souls of three epic and thoroughly evil spellcasters onto your own isn't?

Not as such no. Not only because V is in control but because the fiends cant break the deal if they want to gain the control of V soul.


But assuming V did want to send a message to Durkon, what would he write it with? His own blood? His robes are red.

...hes a wizard with a freaking spellbook! They get scribe scroll at level 1! Do you seriously want me to believe that he got nothing to write????

Of course assuming he doesnt (which would make no sense), he just take empty page of his spellbook instead since the blood would work even better then the robe to make Durkon belive its from him.


Which is why they didn't mention a better alternative.They wanted the alternative to be bad because they didn't want V to accept it. So long as V thinks he has no choice but to sell his soul to save his family, it is self sacrafice. The moment there is an alternative, regardless of whether its likely to work or unreliable, the deed becomes less noble. Then, the fiends pressured V into fearing failure. They managed to make V accept the deal because of his pride, not because of his family.

Ok so first you admit thats its a bad alternative that has a lot less chance of working compared to taking the fiends deal which is pretty much full proof and then you say V is an egoist for choosing the fiends deal. And you see nothing wrong with that? No, taking the fiends deal is not less noble when the alternative could very well not work. Yeah sure, there is lots of pride involved with that but when your childs lives are on the line, you dont take the alternative which could work.

If the fiends would have proposed an alternative that was pretty much full proof then yeah I would agree that V is doing it for all the wrong reason but in that case, when the alternative means that even if your master might be able to stop the dragons before he bind their soul, he will still have the time to kill them and that it involve cutting your head off, no. I really dont see how that is for all the wrong reason. Kubota was for all the wrong reason, not this!

[Optimystik]

I guess but once again, as you said yourself, its not like it would hard for V to make sure Durkon know its him. Otherwise, regardless of if V would be present or not, a sending spell just allow Durkon to speak to Arindarius.

And why would a powerful elven wizard listen to a grubby dwarf? A sending without V is at least as risky as the fiend's method. Doubly so because he will have no idea of its success or failure until its too late.


And of course there is evidence of this in the comic? I'm not buying it because three fiends tell me.

He's a Lawful Outsider (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html), and we haven't seen him lie yet, so the logical assumption is that he can't. I agree that skepticism concerning the fiends is wise, but Nero put it best: "why would we deceive you when we can get what we want just by telling you the truth?"


Or he didnt thought about it until V pointed it out? Yeah I know, that would be too simple.

Why wouldn't he? He's been watching that boat for weeks. He also knows the dangers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html) of infiltrating it.


Not as such no. Not only because V is in control but because the fiends cant break the deal if they want to gain the control of V soul.

Their control of him is built right into the deal. It's also laden with restrictions: can't cast divine magic, lasts only as long as he can concentrate on the link, any buffs with a duration will end as soon as the splice does, etc. That sounds pretty complicated to me.


...hes a wizard with a freaking spellbook! They get scribe scroll at level 1! Do you seriously want me to believe that he got nothing to write????

Of course assuming he doesnt (which would make no sense), he just take empty page of his spellbook instead since the blood would work even better then the robe to make Durkon belive its from him.

Scribe Scroll is a feat, not a pen. Maybe he has one, maybe he doesn't.

Mailing his head would be a lot more certain than a scrap of paper. The only hurdle there would be the resurrection. But I agree with TheSummoner, the alternate plan wasn't meant to be 100% viable, just to change V's motivation. But having come forward with that idea, I'd probably pull a "get thee behind me satan" and give it a try anyway.

Is the alternative plan flawed? Yes of course. But it does have a chance of success, meaning that V has options besides selling his soul. He no longer has the luxury of claiming duress as a defense.


Ok so first you admit thats its a bad alternative that has a lot less chance of working compared to taking the fiends deal which is pretty much full proof and then you say V is an egoist for choosing the fiends deal. And you see nothing wrong with that? No, taking the fiends deal is not less noble when the alternative could very well not work. Yeah sure, there is lots of pride involved with that but when your childs lives are on the line, you dont take the alternative which could work.

The problem with the fiend's deal isn't that it has less chance of working. Deals with the devil generally WORK. It's what comes AFTER that makes it bad.

[Dixieboy]

Imps don't lie, let's get that straight, they are the embodiment of evil and law. (Hence the small size :smallredface:)

and fiends should rightfully not be afraid of dying, when they die they reform in their respective planes (Atleast yugoloths (Daemons) and Demons do)

[Gabenbringer]

Folks, your missing the point here.

Opinions don't count here.
An objective analysis doesn't count here.

We have hours to think about solution V simply hasn't the time.
So question is not what other solutions didn't come to V's mind it is rather: -> Was it an selfish act or not.
-> Did V an evil thing or not?

The only thing that truly defines, if any act is done by an evil person is the mindset of the person that does the thing.

If the person sees no other option and is willingly sacrificing himself/his innocence/conscience/principles to a greater cause, than the person itself may be mad, stupid or naive but is NOT evil.
Even if others from their perspective would beg to differ.
But if the person is deliberately avoiding other choices (regardless how far fetched or stupid) for selfish reasons, than the act itself becomes selfish.
Regardless of what other people might think about the act.

Reading the panels again (and seeing the drama) its very clear that V accepted the alternative plan presented by the Fiends as a possibility. Maybe because V hadn't enough time to think about it or perhaps because the fiends knew how to play V, but the point is, there is nothing in the panels that shows us other reasons than pride to choose the pact.
V knows that the choice is wrong, but does it nevertheless.

The look is there because the answer comes not from logic but from heart
(great emotions are always hint to that :smallwink: )

V may later rationalize the choice -just like you did- but it will change nothing. It was an selfish act and V knows that. (the sad look)

It's a hard thing to be confronted with your own faults and than not being able to do something about them. (The fiends win two times here)
*And i feel deeply for V at this point*

A great comic and a great storyline.

If you may want to split hairs about other solutions, be my guest, but you are missing the point, the tragedy and the drama of the strip.

[Querzis]

And why would a powerful elven wizard listen to a grubby dwarf? A sending without V is at least as risky as the fiend's method. Doubly so because he will have no idea of its success or failure until its too late.

You totally missed the point. Yes that would be a problem and guess what? He would have the same problem even if V was there since a sending spell would only show Durkon to V master regardless of if V is right next to Durkon or not. And as you said yourself, Durkon as only one scroll so it doesnt matter if V is there because if the first sending fail it will be too late! If you assume it would work with the fiends plan then you should assume it would work with my plan too otherwise you are agreeing with me when I say that the fiends plan woudnt have worked and that V most definitly didnt do anything wrong by taking the deal instead.


He's a Lawful Outsider (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html), and we haven't seen him lie yet, so the logical assumption is that he can't. I agree that skepticism concerning the fiends is wise, but Nero put it best: "why would we deceive you when we can get what we want just by telling you the truth?"

No the logical assumption is that he didnt until now. While I do agree that Lawfull people are less likely to lie then neutral and chaotic people, except paladins who got a code which forbid them from lying there is nothing preventing them from actually lying. And even if he doesnt outright lie, there is more then enough way for him to deceive V without lying.


[Why wouldn't he? He's been watching that boat for weeks. He also knows the dangers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html) of infiltrating it.

Yeah and why woudnt a powerfull elven wizard listen to a grubby dwarf? You know whats wrong with «why woudnt he»? Its automatically assuming there is no reason why he would either. Yeah he could, doesnt change the fact that he could not.


Their control of him is built right into the deal. It's also laden with restrictions: can't cast divine magic, lasts only as long as he can concentrate on the link, any buffs with a duration will end as soon as the splice does, etc. That sounds pretty complicated to me.

...whats your point there? So yeah the fiends will be able to control him later but thats not a problem since V doesnt know they are after the gates. And yeah I guess you could say its complicated though honestly all he has to remember is to blast first with the most powerfull spell he will have and ask questions later.


Scribe Scroll is a feat, not a pen. Maybe he has one, maybe he doesn't.

Yeah a feat thats useless without a pen...just like his spellbook as he need to write his new spells when he gain a level (which basically means that he obviously had a pen in the dungeon or he woudnt have been able to get new spell every level). Honestly, hes a wizard. Wizard use nothing but books. Doesnt matter how you think about, he got something to write.


Mailing his head would be a lot more certain than a scrap of paper.

You do realize you're the first one who said that V would have no problem making sure that Durkon would know its him who wrote right? He say something only they know and thats it. Not to mention that we are talking about freaking Durkon, even if he woudnt be sure that two childrens lives are on the line, he would do it.


The only hurdle there would be the resurrection. But I agree with TheSummoner, the alternate plan wasn't meant to be 100% viable, just to change V's motivation. But having come forward with that idea, I'd probably pull a "get thee behind me satan" and give it a try anyway.

I dunno if its because I'm french but I'm not sure if you are saying that you would give a try to the fiends plan that involve cutting your head off or the fiend deal.


Is the alternative plan flawed? Yes of course. But it does have a chance of success, meaning that V has options besides selling his soul. He no longer has the luxury of claiming duress as a defense.

The problem with the fiend's deal isn't that it has less chance of working. Deals with the devil generally WORK. It's what comes AFTER that makes it bad.

Once again I just dont get you. Ok so you agree with me when I say that the plan could very well not work and that the fiend deals would work. And then you still think that V is doing this for all the wrong reasons. We are talking about his childrens getting killed and then have their soul binded for eternity with no chance of afterlife. Yes he can most definitly accept the full proof fiends deals and its not even remotely wrong.

We arent even talking about being a slave to the fiends for eternity. We are talking about a few hours with each fiends. And V assume those few hours will be suffering after hes dead before he go back to his afterlife. He doesnt think they will use him to do evil things, he just assume he will be tortured. Of course, since we know the fiends are here for the gates, we know they are going to take control of V at the worse time but V doesnt.

Edit: Well thats the problem Gabenbringer, I wasnt able to feel any drama from this strip because my willing suspension of disbelief (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief) was thrown out of the window. As soon as I read it I realized just how incredibly flawed and stupid the fiends plan was. And then I'm supposed to believe V is doing this just out of pride and for all the wrong reasons despise the fact that V is smarter then me and probably realized just how likely that plan was to work too. For the very first time there was something in that story I did not find believable or consistent. So yeah I'm annoyed and I'm just gonna hope that the few peoples who think those arent the true four words and that V will have a real «for all the wrong reasons» later are right.

As I already said thats just not for all the wrong reasons, V had done dozens of things a lot more evil then that.

[SPoD]

the fiends plan woudnt have worked and that V most definitly didnt do anything wrong by taking the deal instead.

These two ideas are not the same thing. Just because the alternate plan was not a good idea does not mean that V did nothing wrong in taking the soul-splice. He, in fact, did something very, VERY wrong, and he knows it. Look at his face when he touches the orb. He knows, deep down, that he's doing it for power, not to save his children. The fact that the alternative was not foolproof does not negate what was going on in V's head, which is what really matters here.

Consider this: V could have sold his soul for a Sending spell to his master. Then he would have had the right to pretend it was a noble sacrifice. But he didn't do that, he went for Ultimate Power, and the devils pointed out that he didn't need Ultimate Power to get the job done. He just wanted it, and was rationalizing this as a good time to get it in such a way that no one would blame him.

[Optimystik]

Folks, your missing the point here.

I assure you that I am not. Querzis seems to think that the Fiends' alternative plan is so far-fetched that V still has no choice but to sell his soul. This is simply not the case; Lee's hypothesis has changed EVERYTHING and made the evil of V's decision totally unambiguous.

It may have been a less effective plan, but that's not the same as it being an ineffective plan. And now, we'll never know if it might have worked or not.

[SPoD]

And now, we'll never know if it might have worked or not.

And more importantly, neither does V. He/she will spend every waking moment for the rest of his/her life wondering if he/she made the right decision. This is someone who has basically gone insane over what may he/she might have done differently at the Battle of Azure City, about what he/she could be doing to find Haley...It's exquisitely torturous.

[Optimystik]

No the logical assumption is that he didnt until now. While I do agree that Lawfull people are less likely to lie then neutral and chaotic people, except paladins who got a code which forbid them from lying there is nothing preventing them from actually lying. And even if he doesnt outright lie, there is more then enough way for him to deceive V without lying.

Outsiders are not "people," not the way you define them. They are the physical incarnation of ethical and moral principles. Qarr is a being formed of pure Law and Evil; comparing him to humans, even LE ones, is pointless.


Yeah and why woudnt a powerfull elven wizard listen to a grubby dwarf? You know whats wrong with «why woudnt he»? Its automatically assuming there is no reason why he would either. Yeah he could, doesnt change the fact that he could not.

That's true; but again, V didn't try.


...whats your point there? So yeah the fiends will be able to control him later but thats not a problem since V doesnt know they are after the gates. And yeah I guess you could say its complicated though honestly all he has to remember is to blast first with the most powerfull spell he will have and ask questions later.

It doesn't matter what they're after. They're fiends. Dealing with them is evil. Plain and simple.


Yeah a feat thats useless without a pen...just like his spellbook as he need to write his new spells when he gain a level (which basically means that he obviously had a pen in the dungeon or he woudnt have been able to get new spell every level). Honestly, hes a wizard. Wizard use nothing but books. Doesnt matter how you think about, he got something to write.

Right, and he didn't.


You do realize you're the first one who said that V would have no problem making sure that Durkon would know its him who wrote right? He say something only they know and thats it. Not to mention that we are talking about freaking Durkon, even if he woudnt be sure that two childrens lives are on the line, he would do it.

I said he'd *probably* be able to convince Durkon. But that's moot anyway, because he didn't try. Even with the idea of sending Qarr with something that Durkon would recognize as a message,


I dunno if its because I'm french but I'm not sure if you are saying that you would give a try to the fiends plan that involve cutting your head off or the fiend deal.

I meant the cutting. I'd do just about anything to try and save both my family and my soul. The deal is too dangerous.


Once again I just dont get you. Ok so you agree with me when I say that the plan could very well not work and that the fiend deals would work. And then you still think that V is doing this for all the wrong reasons. We are talking about his childrens getting killed and then have their soul binded for eternity with no chance of afterlife. Yes he can most definitly accept the full proof fiends deals and its not even remotely wrong.

We arent even talking about being a slave to the fiends for eternity. We are talking about a few hours with each fiends. And V assume those few hours will be suffering after hes dead before he go back to his afterlife. He doesnt think they will use him to do evil things, he just assume he will be tortured. Of course, since we know the fiends are here for the gates, we know they are going to take control of V at the worse time but V doesnt.

You're forgetting that if they turn him evil, he will never have his "final rest." His proper place will be with them, even after the hour or however long has finished.

In any case, the wrong reasons part is obvious. Even if the plan that you came up with was a possibility (sending Qarr with some kind of note), he still didn't choose it. He didn't even try. He just hit the blue orb. And he said "I must succeed." Not Durkon. Not Aarindarius. I.

[Belkster11]

The "head"-plan is too flawed, IMO. V has a minute to get to Angry Mama Dragon before she offs his family.

Let's see...
1. He'd have to kill himself
2. Impy (My nickname for the Imp since I'm tired of writing "Imp") would have to remove the head (magically, I'm guessing since there's no axe present).
3. Transport said head to Azure Fleet
4. V's revived
5. Durkon sends a casting spell to V's master
6. V's master goes to V's home and kills the dragon

At most, all that would take...about 20 minutes, give or take the minutes it would take for V/Durkon to explain to the respective other the situation (and, of course, considering Hinjo's or Elan's reaction upon V's return. They may not be happy with him abandoning the fleet in the first place)

By that time, V's family would be long dead and soul-binded (Wondering: How can a dragon soul-bind someone?)

So it's logical V would take the short, easy route. I mean, his FAMILY'S LIFE is on the line. It's not like he has hours to sit down and debate it. He's got mere seconds to decide. Milliseconds, maybe.

As for V's sad look, I'm thinking it's more of a: "I'm really gonna hate myself for doing this, but it has to be done." not a "Wow, I acted really selfish right there, choosing arcane power over my own family."

The point is: There is no selfish or wrong reasons for V to be doing this. The tragedy here is that he probably just chose the worst possible choice where the "head"-plan would have been so much more quicker.

[kusje]

As for V's sad look, I'm thinking it's more of a: "I'm really gonna hate myself for doing this, but it has to be done." not a "Wow, I acted really selfish right there, choosing arcane power over my own family."


Strip title doesn't agree with you.

[Alair]

The point of the cut off your head plan isn't really to be workable. Sure, it's roundabout, could easily fail in a number of places, and given the amount of time it takes the best outcome it could hope to present would still be a highly negative one (The dragon kills V's family but is driven off before being able to soul bind them afterwards), but it *could* work out without V having to damn herself - and as long as V believes that her "This is my only choice" rationalization is destroyed.

Quite a nasty thing to do, I admire a fiend like that.

[Hjiryon]

Outsiders are not "people," not the way you define them. They are the physical incarnation of ethical and moral principles. Qarr is a being formed of pure Law and Evil; comparing him to humans, even LE ones, is pointless.

In any case, the wrong reasons part is obvious. Even if the plan that you came up with was a possibility (sending Qarr with some kind of note), he still didn't choose it. He didn't even try. He just hit the blue orb. And he said "I must succeed." Not Durkon. Not Aarindarius. I.

Cut out the rest of the quote, but a few comments to this:

Dealing with evil entities can be a good act. He's saving lives, y'know. The motives of the devils are plain to see and perfectly obvious, at least at first, and they're not good; but the choice between saving your world and your family is not one between good and evil.

As for the alternate plan, it's a stawman, plain and simple. Any plan whose first part is "cut off your own head and hand it to the demon" is simply too farfetched.

V's motives are his own. The evil-lawyers-in-spooky-robes probably do influence it, but had it not been for the title of the strip (which honestly seems a bit on the heavyhanded side; "plot hammer incoming" etc) which tells us exactly what to we're to think V is thinking here, then it would have been perfectly plausible that he was still acting out of honourable motives.

"I must succeed" does not indicate anything, except that he recognises that
A: The consequences of failure are steep (death of family or personal humiliation, pick whichever you find more likely. Or heck, pick both!)
B: He sees himself as the most likely person to fulfill the task (avoid humilitaion and/or save family, again probably both).

To demand that V should opt for the other scheme (the cutting-off-his-head one) is to equate good with stupid. Seeing how we are talking about a D&D setting, I can sympathise with that point of view, but as always, I find the alignment system much too limiting anyway.

So: The only plausible reason for accepting Vs decision as evil I can see is the fact that the author tells us "this is not right" in the title of the strip. I won't try to argue with that.

[Lissibith]

To demand that V should opt for the other scheme (the cutting-off-his-head one) is to equate good with stupid. Seeing how we are talking about a D&D setting, I can sympathise with that point of view, but as always, I find the alignment system much too limiting anyway.

I don't think anyone's saying he flat-out SHOULD have tried the other plan.

The point I think a lot of people are trying to make is that by introducing a possibility which MIGHT work - however unlikely - you take away the absolute necessity of the splice. It might be the best plan, but V did not necessarily have to treat with evil to attain his goals. That automatically ups the evil of accepting.

And then when the fiends introduce the idea that trying the other plan would mean accepting magic isn't all-powerful, that idea is also acting on V's mind - and even if it's not in any way his reason for accepting, he'll always wonder if it was.

Though knowing what we know of V, I think it's pretty silly to suggest that the idea of having that much magical power and to win by his own actions was no factor in his decision - that it was purely concern for his family and nothing else that led him to accept the splice. But that's just me

[Kaytara]

There is another big problem with the fiends' plan.

They admit themselves that there is a very real chance that V's family will already be dead by the time Aarindarius intervenes and that he'll only succeed in preventing the Soul Bind.

V's small, kindergarten-age children will have died in a torturous, gruesome manner.

Now compare what we know from the comic about the trouble of bringing small children back. Namely, Roy's brother. And he wasn't tortured to death in a manner that would likely leave most adults unwilling to return.

The children's deaths may very well have been irreversible.

[Erloas]

The plan really isn't that complicated, the only real sticking point anyone really has with the plan is V having to kill himself, and possibly time constraints.

As has been pointed out, the message could be delivered to Durkon in a couple other ways that are most likely to be received and accepted.

As for the time constraint, well thats something that either option might not fix. However long it takes to teleport is irrelevant because both V and the dragon have to do spend the same amount of time doing it. So basically it all comes down to how quickly the dragon can kill V's family and bind their souls and leave. Given the fact that its a dragon against 2 children and a baker, I would be surprised if the dragon took more then 1, maybe 2 rounds to kill all 3 of them. Probably all of them in a single area attack/spell. Given that sort of short time period, V took at least a few rounds talking to the imp before the letter even showed up, and it will likely take a few rounds to prepare for the fight.

So either the dragon is going to take its time killing them and leaving, because it doesn't think V has any chance of stopping it, or its going to do it very quickly and leave.

If the dragon takes its time either option is likely to succeed, and if the dragon works as quickly as it can then either option is likely to be too slow.


But what it comes down to mostly is the fact that V choose the path of ultimate arcane power for pride and so he could solve the situation himself. V never says anything about how convoluted or risky or likely to fail the alternative plan is. While it is true that it is risky and has a chance of failure, that wasn't the reason V discounted it. V may have thought something without saying it, but given the nature of written/comic narrative and V's actions in general, it is unlikely that V would have thought something like that without vocalizing it to the readers.

As I've said earlier too, there is also no guarantee that the splice plan will result in V making it home in time to stop the dragon from killing his children anyway and then all the issues with possible problems with resurrecting them don't change with either plan.

[The Pilgrim]

This thing is much less complicated than that.

When V's gonna accept the deal in the first place, he says, she belives, he is doing it in order to save the lives and souls of her children.

When V accepts the deal after being explained the alternative, he clearly says she does it because "I... I must succeed".

So... clase closed. No matter if the other alternative is flawed, viable or not... the matter is that V has changed the reasons why she is accepting the offer to sell his soul. No longer the noble self-sacrifice to save her family, it's just pride and arrogance, will to prove he can succeed on her how. And the proof are the four words: "I... I Must Succeed".

V's reasons are now wrong. Point for the Devils!

[Cromwell]

I assure you that I am not. Querzis seems to think that the Fiends' alternative plan is so far-fetched that V still has no choice but to sell his soul. This is simply not the case; Lee's hypothesis has changed EVERYTHING and made the evil of V's decision totally unambiguous.

I'm afraid I'm much closer to Querzis's opinion than to yours on this one, for two reasons.

1) V is clearly acting under duress. Making a bad decision under the gun and under a clock is simply not the same as selling his soul (or renting it) for ultimate arcane power under ordinary circumstances. Part of his motivation is the "wrong reason" in the prophecy and strip title-- pride-- but is there really any question that V would not be doing this were the family not at risk? It's tainted, but not unambiguous.

2) The alternative plan really is that far-fetched. Even if it works, V has to accept that: (a) He will die. (b) His family will die. (c) His death will be temporary, but with luck, his family's will too. And it really does require luck. Let's game it out (literally since we're following game rules in this comic).
Round zero: Dragon teleports, V screams.
Round 1: Dragon arrives in Elfaland. (Hit single: life in an elven town.)
V talks to Imp.
Round 2: Dragon does the Bond villain monologue thing to let the victims know why they're dying.
V and Imp receive the scroll and open it. (We'll even assume this is the same round. Time stop kicks in immediately.)
Round 3: Dragon talks a lot. Again, I'm giving the alternative plan the benefit of the doubt on time. And that dragon really was chatty.
V finds a way to commit suicide.
Round 4: Dragon kills one kid. Probably playing with his prey, and in any event we'll kill them individually to give the plan the best chance of success.
Imp finds a way to behead V.
Round 5: Dragon kills kid 2.
Imp teleports to fleet.
Round 6: More monologue from the dragon.
Imp conveys V's message, probably fatally for the imp. Assume the note is immediately identified and read.
Rounds 7 through 16: Dragon slays mate, soul binds where appropriate, begins making mate into little hat.
V is being resurrected.
Round 17: Dragon adds little bow to hat.
V talks to Durkon.
Rounds 18 through 27: Dragon what, lurks in a hostile village full of elves to look under the cushions for loose change? Why is she still here?
Durkon sends message to V's master.

The best outcome for V is that his master arrives in round 28 and kills the dragon in round 29. That works only if the dragon hangs out and does her haberdashery in V's house. If she does the smart thing-- take the carcass and desecrates it when she gets to her refuge-- she's gone in round 8. If V takes the deal, he teleports in round 3 and engages the dragon in round 4. The selfish thing for V would be to risk failure to attempt to save his own postmortem suffering, and even then he still has to be decapitated.

[busterswd]

Well, as SPOD pointed out...

"My soul for a scroll of sending."

There are probably other simple solutions too.

And as other people have pointed out, it's SUPPOSED to be just feasible enough to make him question his own motivations, but unpleasant enough so he wouldn't just easily take it.

[ocdscale]

A lot of people miss the point.
The Fiends' alternative plan is not feasible. Although I certainly disagree with the timeline provided above, there are a number of points of failure and it is far from certain in preserving V's family's souls intact.

But that's not the point.

The Fiends provided V with an alternative. V dismisses the alternative, not because it is infeasible, but because V wants to wield ultimate power to save his family. Given two alternatives, saving his family with ultimate power and saving his family without, V certainly chooses the former. That is certainly the wrong reason for the deal.

How do I know this? Because the of V's character development up until this point, and more importantly, because the author basically said so in the strip name.

Maybe you disagree with Rich, or perhaps you think the title is more ambiguous than I do. If so, say so clearly instead of arguing about what you think V's motive should be, as if you had a say in it.

[Querzis]

This thing is much less complicated than that.

When V's gonna accept the deal in the first place, he says, she belives, he is doing it in order to save the lives and souls of her children.

When V accepts the deal after being explained the alternative, he clearly says she does it because "I... I must succeed".

So... clase closed. No matter if the other alternative is flawed, viable or not... the matter is that V has changed the reasons why she is accepting the offer to sell his soul. No longer the noble self-sacrifice to save her family, it's just pride and arrogance, will to prove he can succeed on her how. And the proof are the four words: "I... I Must Succeed".

V's reasons are now wrong. Point for the Devils!

How has he changed his reason? Yes, he must succeed, he must succeed in saving his childrens. If it would be «I want this power» then I would agree with you but V goal hasnt changed at all.

And most importantly, to all the people who point out that V didnt said that this plan was unlikely to work and would probably involve his family dying anyway: he didnt had any time. The fiends finish their explanation and then V as four seconds left to choose. But if everyone, even you guys who think this is for all the wrong reason can see that this plan is really bad then V, whos smarter then any of us can see it as well.

Hes presented with a plan with great chance of failure. And then he say : «I must succeed». I really dont see these words like you do Pilgrim. Any plan that involve killing you and letting your family die a probably very gruesome death is the wrong one. No seriously, as far as I'm concerned letting your family die as long as you can resurect them later instead of taking a deal that would save them but would result in a few hours of torture with the three fiends (or at least thats what V think they will do)? Now thats wrong. The thing is, I would have accepted the fiends deal and under those circumpstance I doubt much of you woudnt have so I really dont see how its wrong! Yeah, we know its really going to screw thing up since the fiends are after the gates but V just think they will torture him a bit after hes dead.

And the thing is, I'm one of the first one who said V was gonna do a Raistlin so dont think I'm saying this because I'm a V fan. I have been sure V would become evil for quite a long time. But this is supposed to be for all the wrong reason? V has done hundred of much more evil things then that until now!

[BillyJimBoBob]

The "head"-plan is too flawed, IMO. V has a minute to get to Angry Mama Dragon before she offs his family.

Let's see...
1. He'd have to kill himself
2. Impy (My nickname for the Imp since I'm tired of writing "Imp") would have to remove the head (magically, I'm guessing since there's no axe present).
3. Transport said head to Azure Fleet
4. V's revived
5. Durkon sends a casting spell to V's master
6. V's master goes to V's home and kills the dragon

I agree that the alternative presented wasn't at all attractive. Many people would be incapable of killing themselves. Many would be unwilling to accept that the Imp (whose name is Qarr if you prefer not to use "Imp") would fulfill the bargain, or be able to fulfill it. The Imp might be willing to die to deliver V's head because he gave his word, but perhaps the CE fiend isn't so happy that V chose the non-splicing alternative, and disintegrates V's head, or kills the Imp, or whatever? Too much is at stake to reply upon a posthumous solution and an Imp and the benevolence of fiends who have traveled to offer you a deal which you have turned down. So I don't see that V really had much choice in the matter, at all.

[Nerdanel]

Here is a plan more likely to succeed:

1. V gives his cape to Qarr.
2. Qarr puts the cape on like the bedsheet on a cliché ghost, covering himself completely.
3. Qarr teleports to Aarindarius (preferably just outside the tower to avoid the mentioned but unspecified defenses).
4. Qarr yells the message at Aarindarius.
5. Hopefully Aarindarius is intrigued enough despite the coloring of the speech bubble to check on V's family.

The fiends' plan reminds me of the legendary Head of Vecna story...

[DoctorJest]

Dealing with evil entities can be a good act.

You're right. You can deal with evil entities and have absolutely nothing but good intentions. In fact, I understand the road to Hell is positively PAVED with them.

[David Argall]

Could anyone please tell me why V would have to cut his head off when he just have to write on his robe a message to Durkon?
V had already rejected the idea of Qarr contacting the fleet as not likely to get the message thru. So V needs a very dramatic "message" that can't be missed. The idea would be a scroll or such message would quite possibly be overlooked, at least for the limited time it is important. But a head is not going to be ignored. [Now whether the head can be severed in time and the odds of Durkon having resurrection racked still have to be considered, but the fiendish idea at least gets by the heros' terrible spot checks.]



Qarr already agreed to help V. Imps don't lie;
Entirely an exaggeration. By mortal standards, our imp is going to be quite truthful [and dishonest], but that is only relatively, not absolutely. Our imp plays poker, a game heavily based on deceit, and his duties with Kubota would involve a lot of lies, directly or indirectly.
And Qarr has only offered to help V. "Let me help." is not an open-ended offer to do anything suggested.



the fiend's goal in mentioning the alternative plan was never that V would accept it, but to make V sell his soul knowing that he didn't have to. They wanted to make V's motivation one of pride lust for power rather than the more noble goal of saving his family's lives and souls. By throwing in that alternative option, they made V's self sacrafice into a selfish action.
But they don't do that. By making the alternative an inferior option, they make it effectively no option.

A proper rendering of this idea would be where you are told by your parents to watch Junior and not let him get in the lake. You get careless and Junior is now drowning. You can rush in the water to rescue bro, with little hope of success [but avoiding a scolding if it works], or rush back to parents to fess up your crime and get their much more competent help. The fiends are the dirty old man you have been told to stay away from, but is there to assist you and your sibling if you ask [with likely complications you don't want to consider]. The fiends' plan would be to rush back to your home, steal the money from your dad's wallet, and then go to town to buy a bull horn to call to your parents with. It may be technically possibly, but it simply is not an option and you are still morally in the same position when you ignore it.

To show V was motivated by pride, one really needs to show a reasonable alternative, not just some wild idea. Say the fiends offered V a scroll of Sending, which has been stolen perhaps, but since it's use will save 3 lives, that's not too hard to justify. However, its use does involve confessing that V has messed up. Instead, we get an idea that will fail, AND will involve confessing that V has messed up.

If our writer does a rewrite here, having V evaluate the plan and endorse it might save the scene. But as it is, V is not guilty of pride when he rejects the fiend plan.

[Llama231]

Chances are, A might be able to track down the dragon and defeat it if he could simply one-shot her.

[TheSummoner]

But they don't do that. By making the alternative an inferior option, they make it effectively no option.

A proper rendering of this idea would be where you are told by your parents to watch Junior and not let him get in the lake. You get careless and Junior is now drowning. You can rush in the water to rescue bro, with little hope of success [but avoiding a scolding if it works], or rush back to parents to fess up your crime and get their much more competent help. The fiends are the dirty old man you have been told to stay away from, but is there to assist you and your sibling if you ask [with likely complications you don't want to consider]. The fiends' plan would be to rush back to your home, steal the money from your dad's wallet, and then go to town to buy a bull horn to call to your parents with. It may be technically possibly, but it simply is not an option and you are still morally in the same position when you ignore it.

Inferior yes. But its still an option. I present you with two plates of food. One has a large pile of gruel and the other has a steak. Both will prevent you from starving, you can choose either. The steak is superior, but the gruel is still available. Maybe you enjoy gruel (like the MitD!), maybe you're a vegetarian and won't eat the steak for that reason. Maybe you prefer not to associate with the forces of darkness, maybe you aren't above asking for help when you need it.

V had a choice, and even though it was inferior towards the goal of saving his family, it was the morally superior choice (once again... it was stupid, but it wasn't a literal deal with a devil, demon, and daemon). Rather than letting V reject the alternative on the grounds that it wouldnt be assured to work, the fiends pressured V into making a quick descision and pushed at the thing that has been eating at him for the last 6 months or so, fear of impotence. They didn't give V the time to reject the alternative for logical reasons, only for ones of pride and power.

[kusje]

Our imp plays poker, a game heavily based on deceit, and his duties with Kubota would involve a lot of lies, directly or indirectly.

He wasn't bluffing during that one hand!

I'm not sure what exactly he was doing for Kubota but it could be just some behind the scenes help like advising him what to do.

[Optimystik]

Dealing with evil entities can be a good act. He's saving lives, y'know. The motives of the devils are plain to see and perfectly obvious, at least at first, and they're not good; but the choice between saving your world and your family is not one between good and evil.

That would be fine if the lives were foremost in his mind. But the instant he contemplated his magic failing yet again, that took precedence.


As for the alternate plan, it's a stawman, plain and simple. Any plan whose first part is "cut off your own head and hand it to the demon" is simply too farfetched.

First off, Qarr is a devil, not a demon. The distinction is very important. He's every bit as much an incarnation of Law as any Marut or Archon. When he says he'll do something, he'll do it; it's that simple. You can quibble about later stages of the plan if you like, but "hand something to Qarr to take to the fleet is pretty much a done deal; the only issue is making that something believable and unlikely to be lost when he's skewered by Lien.


V's motives are his own. The evil-lawyers-in-spooky-robes probably do influence it, but had it not been for the title of the strip (which honestly seems a bit on the heavyhanded side; "plot hammer incoming" etc) which tells us exactly what to we're to think V is thinking here, then it would have been perfectly plausible that he was still acting out of honourable motives.

We know what he's thinking. That's what the 4 words were all about. And someone (Lira? Kish?) made a stellar observation in the official discussion thread; V's was all set to "nobly" fork over his soul, all rationalized and convinced of his righteousness, yet when Lee broke in with the alternative, his reaction wasn't relief that there might be another way. He didn't even contemplate the alternative any further once they mentioned his magic failing; he went right back to staring at the orbs.


"I must succeed" does not indicate anything, except that he recognises that
A: The consequences of failure are steep (death of family or personal humiliation, pick whichever you find more likely. Or heck, pick both!)
B: He sees himself as the most likely person to fulfill the task (avoid humilitaion and/or save family, again probably both).

B: He doesn't, and isn't. He himself knew that Aarindarius could handle the dragon. Yet doing so would be admitting failure yet again.


To demand that V should opt for the other scheme (the cutting-off-his-head one) is to equate good with stupid.

What's stupid about it? By D&D rules it's perfectly plausible. And had he considered the option longer, he might have come up with a less grisly way of getting Qarr to deliver his message. The fiends even did him a favor by stopping time so he could think more.


So: The only plausible reason for accepting Vs decision as evil I can see is the fact that the author tells us "this is not right" in the title of the strip. I won't try to argue with that.

Despite having just done so? How passive-aggressive of you. :smallamused:

[kusje]

That would be fine if the lives were foremost in his mind. But the instant he contemplated his magic failing yet again, that took precedence.


Well, V needs a wake up call because his magic still failed him. This isn't his magic. This is magic he will never get again because he has 2 barred schools.


Despite having just done so? How passive-aggressive of you.

He was saying that he wouldn't argue with that particular reason.

[Querzis]

V had a choice, and even though it was inferior towards the goal of saving his family, it was the morally superior choice.

How so? You guys still havent said a single good reason why choosing the option would probably end up with V family being killed in a very gruesome way is supposed to be morally better. Theres lives on the line, its not two freaking plate of food (no seriously, what kind of comparison was that).


Rather than letting V reject the alternative on the grounds that it wouldnt be assured to work, the fiends pressured V into making a quick descision and pushed at the thing that has been eating at him for the last 6 months or so, fear of impotence. They didn't give V the time to reject the alternative for logical reasons, only for ones of pride and power.

Yes they gave the time for V to reject it for logical reason, they just didnt gave him the time to talk about it. I just had to read it to realize just that plan was stupid and V, who is once again smarter then any of us, would realize it even more! You just have to hear it and you had more then enough time to reject that alternative based on how incredibly stupid it is! That plan could very well not work and even if it would, it would still probably end up with V family being killed even if they will be able to raise them. I just needed one second to realize that and its the same thing for many other people on the forum.

[Optimystik]

Well, V needs a wake up call because his magic still failed him. This isn't his magic. This is magic he will never get again because he has 2 barred schools.

The difference between casting epic spells oneself and mentally commanding proxies to do so is largely semantic. One could argue that ALL magic is by proxy for just about any caster but Mystra.

V is functionally in the driver's seat, and that's what matters to him right now.

[SPoD]

Inferior yes. But its still an option. I present you with two plates of food. One has a large pile of gruel and the other has a steak. Both will prevent you from starving, you can choose either. The steak is superior, but the gruel is still available. Maybe you enjoy gruel (like the MitD!), maybe you're a vegetarian and won't eat the steak for that reason. Maybe you prefer not to associate with the forces of darkness, maybe you aren't above asking for help when you need it.

V had a choice, and even though it was inferior towards the goal of saving his family, it was the morally superior choice (once again... it was stupid, but it wasn't a literal deal with a devil, demon, and daemon). Rather than letting V reject the alternative on the grounds that it wouldnt be assured to work, the fiends pressured V into making a quick descision and pushed at the thing that has been eating at him for the last 6 months or so, fear of impotence. They didn't give V the time to reject the alternative for logical reasons, only for ones of pride and power.

Exactly right. Inferior options are not non-options. Every option has a set of priorities associated with its choice, and when you reject that choice, you are rejecting all those priorities. To pretend that the only factor that matters is probability of success is to reject morality as a valid standard for judging behavior. Ends justify the means, and all that.

Not to mention, how can V judge the probability of success for EITHER plan? He/she knows barely anything about the soul splice, and less about things like (say) the casting time of Resurrection. Given only seconds to decide, he/she had no choice but to reject "probability of success" entirely as a criteria for choosing.

Consider that V has no way of knowing if the soul splice actually functions as advertised--but the imp's teleportation, Durkon's Resurrection and Sending capabilities, and Aarindarius' power are relatively known quantities. Sure, he may not know if Durkon has those spells prepared or on scrolls, but it is certainly plausible that he does. The Soul Splice is entirely new to him. It may have dozens of side effects that haven't been mentioned, side effects that may completely ruin any chance of saving his children. What if the splice leaves him a shrieking incoherent mess? What if the strain kills him instantly? What if he only can hold on to the power for 0.1 seconds? He has to factor his trust of the devils into his valuation of the two plans.

The point everyone is overlooking is: What are the chances that V will fail even with the Soul Splice? We don't know, because we don't know if the fiends are telling the truth about everything, or if they are hiding stuff. Therefore, it is still possible for V to accept the Soul Splice and still lose his family. And if that happens, he will have sold his soul for NOTHING. He will have lost twice. And because he knows he is dealing with fiends, he must assume that this would be exactly what they would want...that they are trying to trick him in some way.

Right now, if V does nothing, he loses his family and keeps his pride and his soul. If V tries the alternate plan, he has a slim chance of saving his family, a 100% chance of keeping his soul and a 100% chance of losing his pride (in his eyes). If V tries the soul splice, he has a greater but ultimately unknowable chance of saving his family, a 100% chance of losing his soul, and a 100% chance of saving his pride.

So, with the probability of success from the Soul Splice unknowable due to lack of data, he has to decide which he values more: his soul or his pride. He choose his pride.

[SPoD]

How so? You guys still havent said a single good reason why choosing the option would probably end up with V family being killed in a very gruesome way is supposed to be morally better. Theres lives on the line, its not two freaking plate of food (no seriously, what kind of comparison was that).

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if we need to explain how conspiring with three physical incarnations of the Evil alignment is morally inferior to, you know, NOT DOING SO, then the reasoning would likely be lost on you anyway.

[kusje]

The difference between casting epic spells oneself and mentally commanding proxies to do so is largely semantic. One could argue that ALL magic is by proxy for just about any caster but Mystra.

V is functionally in the driver's seat, and that's what matters to him right now.

It's not his car.

[TheSummoner]

It's not his car.

Whats the difference between hitting a guy (momma dragon) with your car or stealing someone else's GTA style and hitting the guy with it? In both scenerios, V is in control and thats enough for him.

[Cromwell]

A lot of people miss the point.
The Fiends' alternative plan is not feasible. Although I certainly disagree with the timeline provided above, there are a number of points of failure and it is far from certain in preserving V's family's souls intact.

But that's not the point.

The Fiends provided V with an alternative. V dismisses the alternative, not because it is infeasible, but because V wants to wield ultimate power to save his family. Given two alternatives, saving his family with ultimate power and saving his family without, V certainly chooses the former. That is certainly the wrong reason for the deal.

How do I know this? Because the of V's character development up until this point, and more importantly, because the author basically said so in the strip name.

Maybe you disagree with Rich, or perhaps you think the title is more ambiguous than I do. If so, say so clearly instead of arguing about what you think V's motive should be, as if you had a say in it.

Actually, I don't entirely agree with my timeline anymore, having reread the strip and reconsidered Durkon's Sending scroll. So Aarindarius only arrives 11 rounds too late, not 20, assuming my guesstimate of 10 rounds to get V going again is right-- remember, resurrection takes 100 rounds if Durkon can't produce a scroll. But I digress. I don't think anyone was actually missing the point, or thinking this is American Idol and we get to vote on what V does next. V has clearly been developed in such a way that obtaining arcane power would be insanely tempting to her. (I called V "him" in my first post so I'm switching this time.) The more alternatives she has-- the more that her decision is based on that temptation rather than pure duress-- the wronger her reasons appear. Hence the prophecy and strip title.

The problem with that is that the alternative suggested by the fiends is so half-witted it really undermines the temptation argument. Hence the thread title: Why such a complicated plan? Why so many twists where things could go horribly wrong, or are horrible even if they work? Clearly-- clearly-- temptation is a chunk of V's motivation here, and to at least some extent she's acting on the wrong reasons. But V's just as clearly still over a barrel. Remember her comment when she first thought Qarr was trying to tempt her with power: "I am no fledgling human aristocrat, ready to risk damnation for fleeting dominance in this mortal coil! It would take a great deal more than a handful of misplaced acquaintances before I would consider allying myself with the forces of darkness." That "great deal more" has arrived. If the point of the alternative is to show that V is acting only, or even primarily, from her own lust for power, rather than a need to protect her young at all costs, then it isn't a very successful attempt. "Given two alternatives, saving his family with ultimate power and saving his family without," you'd be right. But her real alternatives are saving her family with ultimate power and probably failing abysmally. Even if she doesn't fail abysmally, the likely result is to prevent the soul binds, not prevent one or more of the family members' painful death(s). The knife twist is when Yellow Fiend says, "we won't tell anyone there was another way to save your children if you don't." But there really wasn't another way-- unless V's willing to trade her brief damnation in the service of Evil for allowing a dragon to attack her family. My original objection was when Optimystik said the option rendered "the evil of V's decision totally unambiguous." It doesn't, and V has plenty of grounds for rationalizing it to herself later. If the Fiends wanted to make it totally unambiguous-- if they wanted V to face the full force of temptation only for power's own sake-- they failed. Remember, though, the oracle never said it had to be for only the wrong reasons. Partial motivations presumably count.

So it begs the question: Why did Rich/the fiends use such a Rube Goldberg alternative? Did they want to create an option that was just plausible enough that V had to make a decision, knowing that she couldn't really take it? Did that give them just enough of an in to hit the "your magic failed you, so you're choosing this" theme?

[SPoD]

So it begs the question: Why did Rich/the fiends use such a Rube Goldberg alternative?

Because if there was any less complex way of saving V's family, it raises the question of Why didn't V think of it himself? Rich needed to come up with a situation where V (and the readers) could see no way out other than to sell his soul--and then needed to have the fiends give a way out anyway, one that does not require any actions on the fiends' part. So of course it's incredibly complex.


Did they want to create an option that was just plausible enough that V had to make a decision, knowing that she couldn't really take it?

Yes, in all likelihood. What benefit would they get by giving V a plan with a high chance of success? None! All they want to do is muddy the issue enough so that V no longer knows what is right or wrong, what is likely to work and what is not, so that V needs to resort to consulting his core beliefs to make a decision. And his core belief is, "I need more power!"


Did that give them just enough of an in to hit the "your magic failed you, so you're choosing this" theme?

Almost certainly.

[Morthis]

I really don't understand why people still keep arguing how viable the alternative was, as if that was the reason V rejected it.

So far, based on everything we know about V, he seeks out ultimate power. It's his reason for joining the party, it's the reason he agreed to go to Azure City when Miko captured them, it's the question he asked the oracle, etc.

The oracle told him he would achieve said power by saying the right four words to the right being for all the wrong reasons, he just said 4 words to the right beings, and the strip is even called "The Wrong Reasons". The oracle's prediction, the strip name, V's obsession with the power of magic, everything pretty much points to the same thing. At the time he accepted the deal, what was on his mind wasn't self sacrifice in an attempt to save his family, but rather a deal that doesn't seem all that bad, that will give him ultimate power and the ability to change the outcome himself, rather than having to rely on a little imp, a cleric, and a wizard far more powerful than himself.

[Querzis]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if we need to explain how conspiring with three physical incarnations of the Evil alignment is morally inferior to, you know, NOT DOING SO, then the reasoning would likely be lost on you anyway.

Look if you wanna go with the stupid 'you're evil because you're with evil' thing then all the member of the OOTS are evil simply by being with Belkar. And if you start telling me : «the difference is whos controlling who» then I would like to point out that except when he was under the MoJ, the rest of the party never really controlled Belkar and that V does actually think hes in control here. Sure hes wrong but that doesnt matter.

Not to mention the fact that the alternative was a plan designed by «three physical incarnations of the Evil alignment» and also rely on another physical incarnations of the Evil alignment (yes, imps count). So by your very own definition its still no better.

Lets get logical here: two options. One that has few chance of success and even if it does work, V family would still probably suffer a gruesome death even if they wont get soul binded. The other is full proof as long the fiends hold their part of the deal. Both involve plans made by fiends and trusting fiends either way. Thats it, you still havent said anything that change this until now.

And before you go with «well at least the alternative dont involve fiends gaining control of your soul» well yeah. But V simply think they will torture him after he dies. If V would knew that letting the fiends control their souls could mean so much trouble then yeah ok I could see your point. But in those circumpstance, no. Even after two pages of this, I still really dont see you guys point.

[Kish]

One could argue that ALL magic is by proxy for just about any caster but Mystra.

In the OotS universe, the response to that would be either "Mystra who?" or, "This isn't the Forgotten Realms," depending on the current state of the fourth wall and the amount of knowledge the person speaking has of D&D settings.

[Gametime]

I think the poster above me hit the nail on the proverbial head. To clarify, V didn't make the wrong choice. It's never implied that he did, and that doesn't seem to be the point of the comic (nor, indeed, the Oracle's original prediction).

V's choice is the logical one. The plan is far more likely to work, and (leaving aside the very real possibility of him being used to unravel the fabric of the universe) holds risk mostly only for himself, as opposed to the pain and suffering in store for his family with the alternative plan.

But the point isn't that he made the wrong decision - it is that he made the right decision for, again, the wrong reasons. It seems clear that V loves his family, and would do anything to save them. In fact, he's willing to do so. It's clear, before the Mod Squad presents the alternate plan, that V is intent on saving his family no matter the cost to himself.

Then his capability is called into question, and everything changes. He failed at Azure City, and he failed to find Haley. V has turned into a paranoid, self-conscious wreck, and the fiends know it. They exploit his most prominent character flaw, presenting a (seemingly viable) option that would remove V from the spotlight.

The fiends probably KNOW their alternate plan wouldn't work. Notice how they take their time when discussing the soul splice - they want V to know what sort of power he could be wielding. They want him CONVINCED that they aren't trying to trick him - that the plan has little downside beyond a few hours of torment. But as soon as the alternate plan is introduced, they start rushing him. Doesn't it seem convenient that the Time Stop was about to end just THEN? Seems pretty probable that they were lying about that - planning to end it voluntarily. They didn't want V considering the alternate plan too carefully, because if he did, he might see the flaws and return to his original assumption - that the soul splice is the only choice.

But he didn't, and he doesn't. He doesn't think the splice is his only option, he doesn't think it is the best option. What he DOES think - and his motivations are the most important consideration when judging how this will affect him and his morality - is that he can't bear to fail again. What was a moment ago a noble sacrifice becomes a selfish grab for power.

Again, he does the right thing - but for (say it with me) all the wrong reasons.

[Querzis]

Gametime, unlike them, I get your point perfectly and I definitly agree that its the right decision logically and morally. But the problem is that part:


The fiends probably KNOW their alternate plan wouldn't work. Notice how they take their time when discussing the soul splice - they want V to know what sort of power he could be wielding. They want him CONVINCED that they aren't trying to trick him - that the plan has little downside beyond a few hours of torment. But as soon as the alternate plan is introduced, they start rushing him. Doesn't it seem convenient that the Time Stop was about to end just THEN? Seems pretty probable that they were lying about that - planning to end it voluntarily. They didn't want V considering the alternate plan too carefully, because if he did, he might see the flaws and return to his original assumption - that the soul splice is the only choice.

V doesnt need time to think about it, as I already said lots of time, I realized how stupid the plan was as soon as I read it and you just have to read the main thread of the comic to realize I'm not the only one. And V is much smarter and think a lot faster then me or anyone around here. So I really dont see how you could be sure that V did it only because of pride and not because the alternative was so flawed.

And even if he did, even if he did not actually realized it was wrong and considered it a viable option, it would actually annoy me even more. Why? Well simply because V is smarter then that. He woudnt even need to think about power or pride, just hearing the first half of the plan should have been more then enough to make him realize it wasnt a viable option.

[The Extinguisher]

Saving his family was his motivations. Power was his reasons.

The point of this comic is that V is presented with more than one option. Sure one option is the most likely to work, but it has an alignment descriptor best defined as "don't do it". And sure, the other plan is convoulted and has many ways in which it will fail. But that is not the point.

The point is, that given the choice, V took the option that will allow HIM to succed, despite it being the option that damns his soul. Yes, it was the best option in saving his family, but that was not why he chose it. He chose it because it means he has the power. It will be his use of power, his magic skills and his intellect that saves his children, not anyone elses. Nevermind that this isn't true at all, it's what V believes because it's what the fiends, master salesmen that they are, told him.

V could have thought of something else, for a Sending Scroll to contact his Master, for the fiends to take out the dragon themselves. But he didn't. He chose to give himself power for the price of his soul, when other options are available. Just because one option is bad, doesn't mean that all options are. V had options, and he chose power. That is why he said those words for the wrong reasons.

[CaptainIreland]

The moment there is an alternative, regardless of whether its likely to work or unreliable, the deed becomes less noble.

But those alternatives already existed. Poor writing of the alternate plan the fiends proposed.

[TheSummoner]

Yes, they existed, but V didn't know they existed. He was convinced that selling his soul was the only way to save his family and understandably so. Had he touched the blue orb convinced there was no other way he would've had the same end result, but the deed would've been incredibly noble... self sacrafice to save others.

Then the fiend mention that he doesn't have to comitt an incredibly evil act to accomplish the same goal. They give an example of an alternative option with no deal with a devil (demon and daemon) required. They brought V's fear of impotence into it and V took the deal because he wanted the power.

[Greep]

These two ideas are not the same thing. Just because the alternate plan was not a good idea does not mean that V did nothing wrong in taking the soul-splice. He, in fact, did something very, VERY wrong, and he knows it. Look at his face when he touches the orb. He knows, deep down, that he's doing it for power, not to save his children. The fact that the alternative was not foolproof does not negate what was going on in V's head, which is what really matters here.

Consider this: V could have sold his soul for a Sending spell to his master. Then he would have had the right to pretend it was a noble sacrifice. But he didn't do that, he went for Ultimate Power, and the devils pointed out that he didn't need Ultimate Power to get the job done. He just wanted it, and was rationalizing this as a good time to get it in such a way that no one would blame him.

Well this isn't quite true. Either way he's selling his soul for something, why not do it in such a way that he's nearly gauranteed to save his kids and mate? If you do something evil for something good, may as well get something pretty darned good if it's for the same price :)

And heck it may even be for the right reasons. He's giving his soul to the devil for 10 minutes basically (unless he goes apes*^& power hungry), to save his children's souls (not just lives mind you) for much longer than 10 minutes.

[Querzis]

The point is, that given the choice, V took the option that will allow HIM to succed, despite it being the option that damns his soul.

Yes the option that damn his soul...for a few minutes compared to his childrens suffering for eternity. And once again, V doesnt expect anyone else then himself to suffer from this deal. Last time I checked suffering to save your family isnt especially evil. And you guys still havent told me a single good reason why I should believe V did this mainly for power and pride except the author say so (personnaly at this point, I'm pretty damn sure Rich is screwing up with us, woudnt be the first time).

Either way, we already went over that and theres already people who said exactly the same thing. Please read the thread first.

But I'm seriously starting to think that you guys are using the knowledge only we have way too much. Yes deal with fiends never worked well in fiction and especially not in D&D. Yes, they can probably actually take control of V while hes still alive. Yes the fiends are after the gates. Yes we know this will come back later and really screw things up. But V doesnt know that, he simply think the demons will torture him after hes dead. You cant claim evil by ignorance!

[Ancalagon]

And heck it may even be for the right reasons. He's giving his soul to the devil for 10 minutes basically (unless he goes apes*^& power hungry), to save his children's souls (not just lives mind you) for much longer than 10 minutes.

After all you saw from Vaarsuvius so far: Can you REALLY imagine he will give up all that power on his free will after wacking the dragon? Especially if all the things happen that the fiends mentioned (manic power-posessedness etc)?

[Ellye]

The "plan" suggested by the fiends was propositally overly complex, risky and difficult to execute - killing yourself probably isn't a easy thing to do even knowing that you will get raised. And there's no way of being completely sure that V would get raised, since the imp would have to make a "sacrifice" (outsiders don't really die in the material plane, if I got it right, but it probably hurts) that he might not be willing to do.
They suggested a plan that V would obviously reject. And, soon after, before V had time to rationalize, they started teasing his pride and them reminded him about the kind of power that he'd get with the deal (that even was "100% his idea"). And they gave him no time to think. They make V decide it under pressure, without time to think it logically - and V is not used to that.

The result? V dialogue has gone from "I must, as a parent, make this deep sacrifice and accept your accursed bargain" to "I... I must succeed". There's a difference there.

Yes, V motive is still saving his family. But there's a lot of pride involved in it now too. Is it "all the wrong reasons"? I wouldn't say so, mainly because I have a hard time seeing pride as a wrong thing in the first place, but I can understand how it could classified as that.

[Kaytara]

We know what he's thinking. That's what the 4 words were all about. And someone (Lira? Kish?) made a stellar observation in the official discussion thread; V's was all set to "nobly" fork over his soul, all rationalized and convinced of his righteousness, yet when Lee broke in with the alternative, his reaction wasn't relief that there might be another way.

That's not an observation, it's an interpretation. V certainly didn't look dismayed that the fiends mentioned a different way. He looked shocked and surprised. Rather than assume that he was unhappy about it, it's far more logical that his shock stems from the idea that he had just about touched the orb a second ago when apparently it wasn't the only option, and from surprise that the fiends would even mention that.


He didn't even contemplate the alternative any further once they mentioned his magic failing; he went right back to staring at the orbs.
Um, no. Until the panel where they tell him that the Time Stop is ending, Vaarsuvius is only looking at the fiends. The only exception is that panel with V's POV with the two orbs in the foreground and the fiends behind them, but even there he's intently following what the fiends are saying to him.

[RMS Oceanic]

V doesnt need time to think about it, as I already said lots of time, I realized how stupid the plan was as soon as I read it and you just have to read the main thread of the comic to realize I'm not the only one. And V is much smarter and think a lot faster then me or anyone around here. So I really dont see how you could be sure that V did it only because of pride and not because the alternative was so flawed.

Have you spent several months stressed, guilt-ridden and deliberately deprived of your species' equivalent of REM? I suspect such things would have an impact on your faculties.

Just because you realised the flaws in the plan doesn't mean Vaarsuvius did. Sometimes the mind just doesn't pick up on things. It's like that episode of The Simpsons, where Bart and his friends figure out a brain teaser puzzle almost instantly, while Lisa struggles with it for the whole episode. Sometimes, it doesn't click with you.

But that's moot. What the fiends are taunting V about is that the more logical parts of the plan (getting Durkon's and Aarandarius' help) would force V to admit that h** magic has failed, that (s)he has failed, and that's something V is not willing to do right now. If the average forum goer was in V's position and offered those two options, they'd pick the Soul Splice because the other plan has a higher failure rate. V picked the Soul Splice because (s)he can't cope with admitting that (s)he failed again. In pragmatic, efficient terms, it may be the right choice, as it apparently has the best chance of rescuing V's family, but it was picked to avoid having to face a harsh truth, which is the wrong reason.

[Rotipher]

The best outcome for V is that his master arrives in round 28 and kills the dragon in round 29. That works only if the dragon hangs out and does her haberdashery in V's house.

Er, does it look like Mama Dragon would actually fit inside V's house? I think she's a couple of size categories too big for that, unless she's planning to use the house as a shirt to go along with her new hat.

Me, I suspect that it's taking her several rounds of work to tear the roof off the house and fish out the occupants, and that's how Rich will excuse the kids' not having been dead several pages ago. She can't just melt a hole in the place with her breath weapon, if she's planning to kill them in the horrible manner she described to V: it's unlikely that even Parent has more than 3 or 4 hp, so even a few stray drops of acid could deprive her of the chance to fully savor her revenge.

[Kaytara]

But that's moot. What the fiends are taunting V about is that the more logical parts of the plan (getting Durkon's and Aarandarius' help) would force V to admit that h** magic has failed, that (s)he has failed, and that's something V is not willing to do right now. If the average forum goer was in V's position and offered those two options, they'd pick the Soul Splice because the other plan has a higher failure rate. V picked the Soul Splice because (s)he can't cope with admitting that (s)he failed again. In pragmatic, efficient terms, it may be the right choice, as it apparently has the best chance of rescuing V's family, but it was picked to avoid having to face a harsh truth, which is the wrong reason.

The hitch in your argument is that V seemed perfectly willing to attempt to contact either Aarindarius (in fact, that was his very first idea) or Durkon for help, but those ideas were dismissed as unlikely to work, which was a reasonable analysis.

My interpretation is that the fiends' speech to Vaarsuvius was more intended to provoke a reaction along the lines of "Damn it, they're right about me... aren't they?"
Until that point, Vaarsuvius had been mostly thinking practically, perfectly willing to ask others for help if need be. It was only when the fiends reminded him exactly what that should actually mean to him that Vaarsuvius started questioning himself. That would also explain why V was unable to decide quickly even with that genius-level INT of his. He wasn't trying to analyze the merits of the alternative plan, he was trying to determine if the fiends were right about it and if he really was only doing this out of pride.
"I... I must succeed." is, IMO, the closing clause. As in, "I don't know if they're right about why I'm doing this, but success is what matters, and this is more likely to result in success."

[RMS Oceanic]

"I... I must succeed." is, IMO, the closing clause. As in, "I don't know if they're right about why I'm doing this, but success is what matters, and this is more likely to result in success."

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. When I see "I... I must succeed.", 'I' is the magic word. As in, "I must not allow my arcane might to fail me again, and I'll do anything to avoid that."

The earlier communication is a good point. My rebuttal would this was immediately after the Dragon had legged it, and V hadn't yet realised what asking for help would imply about h** skills. By the time the fiends get round to their recommendation, they've already stirred up V's interest in the Soul Splice, and then explicitly spelled out for V what option 2 would entail with regards to personal failure.

[Kish]

Me, I suspect that it's taking her several rounds of work to tear the roof off the house and fish out the occupants, and that's how Rich will excuse the kids' not having been dead several pages ago.
They're not dead several pages ago because time stopped when the fiends showed up.

[Kaytara]

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. When I see "I... I must succeed.", 'I' is the magic word. As in, "I must not allow my arcane might to fail me again, and I'll do anything to avoid that."
I would agree, if Vaarsuvius were shown to be calm, placing deliberate emphasis on the extra "I". As it is, V's body language clearly conveys that he's tearing himself up over the decision. So I think it's more logical to chalk the extra "I" up to stammering due to hesitation rather than anything meaningful.


The earlier communication is a good point. My rebuttal would this was immediately after the Dragon had legged it, and V hadn't yet realised what asking for help would imply about h** skills. By the time the fiends get round to their recommendation, they've already stirred up V's interest in the Soul Splice, and then explicitly spelled out for V what option 2 would entail with regards to personal failure.
That's pretty much what I said, actually. But if you say that V hadn't yet realised what asking for help would imply about his skills when he came up with the idea of asking for help, then it means he wasn't intrinsically opposed to the idea by itself. As I said, I think it was more a case of the fiends reminding him: "But don't forget, you're supposed to be this ultra-powerful mage with supreme pride in your power. If you ask these schmucks for help, wouldn't it mean that your power has failed you again? Well? Wouldn't it?"

And while your interpretation of V being already interested in the power at that point is plausible... Consider this. When Qarr first approached him, the whole time Vaarsuvius was under the impression that the imp was out to get his soul and was offering some kind of power in return. We know this because V rants about not being stupid enough to risk eternal damnation, etc., even though Qarr had suggested nothing of the sort. And in 631, when Qarr tells him that he can't give him any power, V asks Qarr: "Then what were you offering me just a few minutes ago?"

Based on that, it seems that Vaarsuvius had initially rejected Qarr's help while under the impression that he was rejecting an offer of power, which shows that he wasn't willing to bargain with fiends to get that power.
That willingness by itself likely hasn't changed in several strips.

[Querzis]

Have you spent several months stressed, guilt-ridden and deliberately deprived of your species' equivalent of REM? I suspect such things would have an impact on your faculties.

You just have to read the few strip before to realize thats not true at all. V is as sharp as ever and even the dragon admit hes surprised the lack of trance didnt affect anything else then his aim.


Just because you realised the flaws in the plan doesn't mean Vaarsuvius did. Sometimes the mind just doesn't pick up on things. It's like that episode of The Simpsons, where Bart and his friends figure out a brain teaser puzzle almost instantly, while Lisa struggles with it for the whole episode. Sometimes, it doesn't click with you.

But I'm not the only one, you just have to go back to the main thread to realize that. And the problem with that plan are mostly the same problem that Vaarsuvius himself pointed out before when talking to the imps (adding of course, the problem about killing himself and the idea that Durkon got a scroll of resurection and diamonds ready which are two very obvious problem that dont need to be pointed out to anyone). And by the way, the Simpsons episode was just a visual puzzle that honestly had nothing to do with intelligence really. Those sort of things determine your visual capacities and your attention to details, nothing else. It would be like using the «do you see a vase or faces» trick to determine intelligence.


But that's moot. What the fiends are taunting V about is that the more logical parts of the plan (getting Durkon's and Aarandarius' help) would force V to admit that h** magic has failed, that (s)he has failed, and that's something V is not willing to do right now. If the average forum goer was in V's position and offered those two options, they'd pick the Soul Splice because the other plan has a higher failure rate. V picked the Soul Splice because (s)he can't cope with admitting that (s)he failed again. In pragmatic, efficient terms, it may be the right choice, as it apparently has the best chance of rescuing V's family, but it was picked to avoid having to face a harsh truth, which is the wrong reason.

Yeah so once again we already talked about that. And I still see absolutely nothing in the comic that could make you believe its true (putting so much emphasis on the extra 'I' when hes obviously hesitating is just ridiculous). And even if he does, I still dont see how its for all the wrong reasons. Like Ellye I dont really see the problem with pride as long as you dont put your pride above others and, unlike in many things he had done until now, this time V didnt. Once again, he just assume he is, and him alone, gonna suffer a bit after hes dead, thats it. Even if you think he did this for the wrong reasons, which is something I do not see in the comic, its still a lot less wrong then dozens of other things V did until now, especially Kubota.

[Endarire]

Having played a Wizard in a 3.5 game running from level 1 to 21, I tell you that arcane power is awesome. As a DM, it's painfully hard to challenge players that know their options and can think like their characters would. A properly prepared and somewhat paranoid (or is that very paranoid?) level 20 Wizard- just shy of epic- is practically invincible short of deities or more powerful casters.

Considering V is getting the aid of an Epic Sorcerer ("Their epic spells should complement your own spellcasting deficits most superbly" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)) who can cast any of his spells on the fly and two epic Wizards who have more spell slots than they can expect to use in a rest period, and assuming these fiends speak the truth, V is about to enter God Mode. It may be overkill for saving his family, but there are plenty of opportunities even in 10 minutes to take over the world, create infinite wealth, and screw over everyone. Logically, this won't happen because it would make for a less interesting story, but V can now time stop ([url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timestop.htm), greater teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportgreater.htm) home, continue time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timestop.htm) as prudent, and take out the dragon before she knows what's coming. If Rich plays by the rules as written, V can't just spam his biggest Evocation booms- see time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timestop.htm)'s clause about being unable to affect anyone not in stopped time- but he can use gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) or summon enough critters then cast dimensional lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionallock.htm) to ensure the dragon can't just warp out.

The dragon, if she wanted to ensure the death of V's family, could have cast time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timestop.htm) upon arriving at V's house- probably from an item- set up everything she needed, and with trap the soul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapthesoul.htm), tricked his family into touching certain trapped objects. In short, the dragon could have already achieved her goal and be gone by now, but that potentially makes for less interesting drama.

Also, if the dragon can cast greater teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportgreater.htm) and antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicfield.htm) from her spells known and she has no class levels, she's a great wyrm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon), or a significant threat to a group of level 20 characters. (Her challenge rating is 22.) I can understand why she'd be especially cautious around a group of level 13+ adventurers because of disparities in the CR system, especially with casters, and an entire fleet of people eager to take her down. That's a minor point.

Perhaps "all the wrong reasons" includes wanting to try out banned schools. V definitely banned Conjuration, but he's cast many Evocations, invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) (Illusion), fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) (Transmutation), a homebrew (?) spell similar to scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) (Divination), suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm) (Enchantment), and protection from arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionfromarrows.htm) (Abjuration). I don't recall him casting any Necromancies, but this finally gives him the opportunity to animate dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animatedead.htm) with troops that have an instantaneous duration. (The soul splice may cancel instantaneous effects after the splice ends.) Perhaps V will feel the pull of power and desire to continue partaking in the ritual because it's so delicious, nevermind that each of the fiends could probably easily undo V's results. I see a compelling case for V wanting ultimate arcane power to avenge the deaths of his family whom he doesn't realize is dead more than wanting to use this power to protect them.

For more info on what a paranoid and prepared level 20 Wizard can do, read this link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3763.0).

Finally, I see the fiends' proposed plan as so convoluted as not to be viable. For someone as smart as Vaarsuvius, Murphy's Law is a bummer. V would depend first on these factors:
-V's ability to send a completely clear message to Durkon and co
-Qaar's loyalty
-Qaar's ability to take V's message to Durkon and have Durkon understand it
-Durkon's willingness and ability to revive V
-The group's ability to get V's master's attention and his willingness to cooperate
-The ability to revive V's family if dead or prevent their deaths if alive
-The ability to prevent future incidents
-Time!

I don't like those odds when I have someone offering the ability to accomplish my immediate and longer-term goals for a higher but worthwhile price.

[David Argall]

I see the claim that V is doing this out of pride to be circular reasoning.

"True, V was willing to do this for the benefit of family, but given the presence of a stupid alternative, the motive must be pride because V is prideful."