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Mauril Everleaf
2009-03-02, 04:48 AM
I am currently in the process of designing a hobgoblin Ranger who uses heavy thrown weapons, specifically the javelin. WotC hasn't given much love to the Heavy Thrown weapons, or at least not that I can really see. So, I am asking for a bit of help building a Javelin Ranger. Mentioning any feats or powers that are better for a heavy thrower would be much appreciated. If you want to be daring and throw up a whole build, I need it from levels 1-10. Specifications are a 22-point buy and race must be hobgoblin. Recommendations on magical gear would be nice, but not necessary. For role play purposes (which are influencing this build), think Spartan warrior culture with hobgoblins. Thanks!

Tengu_temp
2009-03-02, 05:02 AM
1. Remember that non-basic ranged powers with heavy thrown weapons still use dexterity, not strength.
2. Try getting a magic weapon ASAP - this way you won't have to carry a lot of them with you, because all magic weapons return to your hand automatically after being thrown.
3. If you can blow a feat on that, I suggest using a tratnyr from Adventurer's Vault - it's basically a javelin with the Versatile property and dealing d8 instead of d6 base damage.
4. If I remember correctly, there is a paragon path in Martial Power created specifically for rangers who use thrown weapons. You might want to check it out.

Kurald Galain
2009-03-02, 08:45 AM
Get a Grasping Javelin.

Remember Scorpion from Mortal Kombat? This is precisely the same.

Tygell
2009-03-02, 03:22 PM
This thread is relevant to my interests. Please continue.

ColdSepp
2009-03-02, 03:48 PM
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4. If I remember correctly, there is a paragon path in Martial Power created specifically for rangers who use thrown weapons. You might want to check it out.

I believe you are thinking of Avalanche Hurler.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-03-02, 04:44 PM
Avalanche Hurler would be great, except this is sticking simply to the Heroic Tier. No Paragons for my heavy thrower.

Are there any powers that are a Must Have for a heavy throwing Ranger?

Here is my build, spoilered for length, if anyone has any recommendations on improving it.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Javeliner, level 10
Hobgoblin, Ranger
Build: Archer Ranger
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
Background: Scion of an Ancient Bloodline

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 14, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8.


AC: 23 Fort: 18 Reflex: 21 Will: 18
HP: 76 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature, Athletics, Endurance, History, Perception.

FEATS
1: Shield Proficiency (Light)
2: Far Throw
4: Quick Draw
6: Lethal Hunter
8: Alertness
10: Predatory Action

POWERS
1, At-Will: Twin Strike
1, At-Will: Nimble Strike
1, Encounter: Two-Fanged Strike
1, Daily: Hunter's Bear Trap
2, Utility: Hunter's Privilege
3, Encounter: Thwarting Shot
5, Daily: Spitting-Cobra Stance
6, Utility: Weave Through the Fray
7, Encounter: Biting Volley
9, Daily: Ranger's Recovery
10, Utility: Shed the Mark

ITEMS
Javelin (5), Hide Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Light Shield
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

I will accept any feat or power found in the PHB, Martial Power, or Dragon. Pretty much if WotC sanctioned it, it's good to use.

Shadow_Elf
2009-03-02, 04:45 PM
Are you looking for Shield & Javelin or Dual Javelins? As a Two-Weapon Ranger, you can take Dual Tratynyrs (one/hand) and still keep Prime Shot. This would let you go into melee and ranged combat effectively. Two weapon fighting for some extra defence, and split your stat boosts down Dex and STR, and you're good to go.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-03-02, 04:53 PM
Sorry. I ninja'd you with my build. For mostly role play reasons, I am going with Javelin & Shield. I did, however, take the Two-Weapon build for the option of dualing in melee and getting Toughness over Combat Reflexes.

Colmarr
2009-03-02, 09:53 PM
6: Lethal Hunter

I'm AFB at the moment, but isn't EWP: Tratnyr a better mechanical choice for a character that won't see paragon?

The die change is the same (d6 to d8), but the Tratnyr upgrade works on all targets (not just your quarry) and you get it multiple times on 2[W] and 3[W] powers.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-03-02, 10:50 PM
That's a good point... I should likely take that then. I'll probably take it earlier in the build. Lethal Hunter was more of a "fill" feat anyway.

Asbestos
2009-03-02, 11:48 PM
Get a Grasping Javelin.

Remember Scorpion from Mortal Kombat? This is precisely the same.

Personally, I'd rule that that doesn't work with ranged attacks (though it is cool)

Asbestos
2009-03-03, 12:28 AM
I'm AFB at the moment, but isn't EWP: Tratnyr a better mechanical choice for a character that won't see paragon?

The die change is the same (d6 to d8), but the Tratnyr upgrade works on all targets (not just your quarry) and you get it multiple times on 2[W] and 3[W] powers.

Weapon Focus would end up the same, wouldn't it?

Colmarr
2009-03-03, 12:36 AM
Weapon Focus would end up the same, wouldn't it?

The same as what?

Regardless, I think the answer is "no". Weapon focus isn't multiplied on a 2[W] or 3[W] power, which is the main reason EWP feats generally trump Weapon Focus (the other being that a die size increase is generally worth +2 damage on a crit, rather than just +1).

Asbestos
2009-03-03, 12:41 AM
The same as what?

Regardless, I think the answer is "no". Weapon focus isn't multiplied on a 2[W] or 3[W] power, which is the main reason EWP feats generally trump Weapon Focus (the other being that a die size increase is generally worth +2 damage on a crit, rather than just +1).

Same average increase in damage. However, you are correct about the multiple W powers, so yeah, EWP is the way to go here.

Colmarr
2009-03-03, 12:46 AM
Same average increase in damage.

Ah, yes, the average damage increase on a 1[W] hit is the same.

However, remember that 1d6 -> 1d8 is an increase of 1 or 2. Even before you count the effects of critical hits and multi-[W] powers, an EWP feat that increases your damage die will always be a better bet in Heroic tier than Weapon Focus.

Tengu_temp
2009-03-03, 06:58 AM
Could you tell at which levels are you upgrading which ability scores? I don't see the point of upgrading charisma or constitution for a ranger, and with a race that has a bonus to dexterity you should preferably start with 18 in it and upgrading it at every level.

Colmarr
2009-03-03, 07:04 AM
Could you tell at which levels are you upgrading which ability scores? I don't see the point of upgrading charisma or constitution for a ranger, and with a race that has a bonus to dexterity you should preferably start with 18 in it and upgrading it at every level.

Neither of Con or Cha have received level buffs. I believe that the "starting ability scores" are before racial bonuses. Hobgoblins get +2 Con and +2 Cha.

The 4th level buff went to Dex and Str and the 8th level buff to Dex and Wisdom (or vice versa).

MammonAzrael
2009-03-03, 12:46 PM
Regarding Weapon Proficiency (Tratnyr) vs. Weapon Focus (Spear), I would go with the Proficiency first, since with multiple 2[W] and 3[W] powers it will really make a difference. However, don't forget that Rangers get more out of Weapon Focus than most classes, since they have powers that hit multiple times, notably Twin Strike. So Weapon Focus effectively adds at least +2 damage for most powers. (And it will apply to any spear he happens to pick up.)

If you're starting at first level, I would suggested moving Quick Draw to there, so you'll be able to use powers like Twin Strike.

Also, Predatory Action gives you an average +7 (+9 if you stick with Lethal Hunter) damage a day. I'd just go with Weapon Focus, as it will wind up giving you a lot more damage overall.

Martial Freedom is a great feat to consider if you want your character to be very mobile.

I don't know how this would be ruled exactly, but when does a magical thrown weapon return to the thrower? If it's after the attack action, you'll need multiple enchanted javelins/tratnyrs for powers like Twin Strike. If your DM rules you only need one weapon, and it returns to you in between attacks, then you can retrain Quick Draw as soon as you get a magic weapon. And you would also want to consider switching from a javelin/shield combo to two javelins and the Two-Weapon Fighting/Defense feats. You could throw only the javelin in your main hand, getting the bonus +1 damage (which isn't a feat bonus, so it stacks with Weapon Focus) to every attack.

Oh, and History is not on the Ranger's skill list, so I don't think you can have it trained.

Yakk
2009-03-03, 01:01 PM
If you're starting at first level, I would suggested moving Quick Draw to there, so you'll be able to use powers like Twin Strike.
Multiple-hit powers automatically include the 'loading' time in their use.

So a Ranger who uses Twin Strike with thrown weapons, starting with two thrown weapons, ends up with one thrown weapon.

Also, Predatory Action gives you an average +7 (+9 if you stick with Lethal Hunter) damage a day. I'd just go with Weapon Focus, as it will wind up giving you a lot more damage overall.Superior Weapon > Weapon Focus > Hunter's Quarry > Predatory Action
in general, with the noted exception that Predatory Action can give you a spike damage boost.

(Sup. Weapon is ~+1 per [W] that hits, weapon focus is ~+1 per tier, and HQ is ~+1 per round in which you hit your Quarry. At tier 1, the order is pretty clear.)

Tengu_temp
2009-03-03, 04:24 PM
Neither of Con or Cha have received level buffs. I believe that the "starting ability scores" are before racial bonuses. Hobgoblins get +2 Con and +2 Cha.

The 4th level buff went to Dex and Str and the 8th level buff to Dex and Wisdom (or vice versa).

Ah yes, that makes sense - for some weird reason I thought hobgoblins receive +2 Str and Dex. I probably mistook them for bugbears.


Personally, I'd rule that that doesn't work with ranged attacks (though it is cool)

Magic thrown weapons return to you immediately after you attack with them - a Grasping Javelin makes perfect sense.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-03-03, 04:52 PM
@Tengu: My stat upgrades are DEX and WIS at 4 then DEX and CON at 8. The reason I boosted CON was because STR and WIS were already at even numbers and boosting them to odd numbers doesn't really help, and the extra hit point and healing surge are always useful.

@MammonAzrael: As Yakk mentioned, loading times are inherent in the powers and the DM has ruled that a magic weapon returns after each attack, not simply after each turn, so only one magic javelin/tratnyr is needed.

I am going to stick with the shield since the culture the warrior is from is built around Spear and Shield fighting, but thanks for the suggestion on the Two-Weapon feats. I had looked at those. I will, however, put Martial Freedom in there in place of Predatory Strike and switch Lethal Hunter for WP(Tratnyr).

Also, History is on my class skills list due to my background, which gives me History as a class skill and a +3 to History.

@Everyone: A portion of the build is below. Feats have been adjusted and the powers have been listed for suggestions.
FEATS
1: Shield Proficiency (Light)
2: Weapon Proficiency (Tratnyr)
4: Quick Draw
6: Far Throw
8: Alertness
10: Martial Freedom

POWERS
1, At-Will: Twin Strike
1, At-Will: Nimble Strike
1, Encounter: Two-Fanged Strike
1, Daily: Hunter's Bear Trap
2, Utility: Hunter's Privilege
3, Encounter: Thwarting Shot
5, Daily: Spitting-Cobra Stance
6, Utility: Weave Through the Fray
7, Encounter: Biting Volley
9, Daily: Ranger's Recovery
10, Utility: Shed the Mark