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Dyllan
2009-03-02, 08:10 AM
I've designed a new character for the campaign I'm playing in, as my old character has been written out of the story (at least for the time being).

I'm going to be filling the same role in the party that our Frenzied Beserker previously filled (minus the killing our own cleric part... which only happened once). But, I wanted to do it with a substantially different build. Here's the short form of the build:

Dwarf
Bear Totem Barbarian 4
Fighter 1
Fist of the Forest 1
Deepwarden 2
Primeval 4 (Dire Lion form)

With improved unarmed strike as primary attacks and the Dire Lion's natural attacks as secondary attacks, I get to make a LOT of attacks. Without any equipment, my average damage per round (assuming everything hits) is 142.5. However, that's spread over 8 attacks. A creature with DR 10/anything will cut that down to 62.5... a rather drastic reduction. DR higher than 10 and I'm totally nerfed.

So, any suggestions on feats and/or magic gear that can get me past various types of damage reduction?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-02, 09:42 AM
Amulet of Natural attacks from Savage Species.

Dyllan
2009-03-02, 10:03 AM
Amulet of Natural attacks from Savage Species.

With what abilities on it?

Also, I have 4 kinds of attacks (improved unarmed, 2 claws, 1 bite, 2 rakes). Wouldn't that get incredibly expensive?

Tehnar
2009-03-02, 10:15 AM
There is the spell metal fang, from complete champion that allows you to get silvered or cold iron on your natural attacks. Since its a level 2 spell you could get it as a potion.

For the aligment based damage reduction, there is Align fang, from spell compendium. Its also level 2, so could be made into a potion.

For the adamantium based damage reduction, there is a spell to get your natural weapons to be treated as adamantium, but atm I cant recall what is its exact name. I know its a fairly high level though (6th I think).

Meat Shield
2009-03-02, 10:26 AM
You could throw a couple levels of warblade in there and pick up maneuvers from the mountain hammer chain. They add damage and ignore ALL damage reduction and hardness with no saving throw.

Dyllan
2009-03-02, 10:27 AM
There is the spell metal fang, from complete champion that allows you to get silvered or cold iron on your natural attacks. Since its a level 2 spell you could get it as a potion.

For the aligment based damage reduction, there is Align fang, from spell compendium. Its also level 2, so could be made into a potion.

For the adamantium based damage reduction, there is a spell to get your natural weapons to be treated as adamantium, but atm I cant recall what is its exact name. I know its a fairly high level though (6th I think).

Those fang spells sound like druid spells... I don't suppose they show up on any other spell lists? We have a cleric already, a sorcerer/rogue and we will have another arcane caster joining us, so something one of them can cast would help a lot.

Meat Shield
2009-03-02, 10:27 AM
Or use feats to pick up the maneuvers also, forgot about that.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-02, 10:33 AM
Or use feats to pick up the maneuvers also, forgot about that.But the "overcome DR/Hardness" strikes are standard actions with one weapon. Not saying that a ToB dip isn't good, but Tiger Claw rather than Iron Heart and it won't help much with DR.

Dyllan
2009-03-02, 10:40 AM
But the "overcome DR/Hardness" strikes are standard actions with one weapon. Not saying that a ToB dip isn't good, but Tiger Claw rather than Iron Heart and it won't help much with DR.

I'd really rather avoid ToB. Stylistically, our group really doesn't like the book at all. It's about the only WoTC sourcebook that's off limits (other than psionics, which don't exist in this campaign).

Meat Shield
2009-03-02, 10:41 AM
He is not going to have the opportunity to full attack all the time, and the maneuvers will give him bonus DR-ignoring damage for free when he needs it. Also works great against objects.

And as he is looking for DR ignoring stuff, I would stay with the mountain hammer line. The Tiger Claw stuff is good for what he is going for, but overlaps a lot with the other stuff in his current build and does not ignore DR. Also, the Iron Heart maneuvers work with natural and manufactured weapons.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 10:55 AM
To the OPer: Since your group clearly does not like viable beatsticks, why are you trying to make one anyways?

Dyllan
2009-03-02, 10:56 AM
Well, I found the solution for alignment based.

Align Weapon, Mass - level 3 cleric spell that works on multiple weapons. I figure I can convince our cleric to keep that handy and just cast it on everyone's weapons when we get in battle against something with alignment based DR.

Still working on metal based...

Advocate
2009-03-02, 10:58 AM
Well, I found the solution for alignment based.

Align Weapon, Mass - level 3 cleric spell that works on multiple weapons. I figure I can convince our cleric to keep that handy and just cast it on everyone's weapons when we get in battle against something with alignment based DR.

Still working on metal based...

Incorrect.


You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike.

You need Align Fang. Otherwise, no claws, no bites, no unarmed strike.

Dyllan
2009-03-02, 11:01 AM
Incorrect.
You need Align Fang. Otherwise, no claws, no bites, no unarmed strike.

Back to the drawing board then.

Belobog
2009-03-02, 11:11 AM
The only fang spells I'm aware of are Silvered Fang, Align Fang, and the Magic Fang line. If you're looking for a long time solution, you might want to get rings of them, either with charges you can expend or as a persistant buff. It doesn't look like a solution you'll be able to get in the short term, though.

If that other caster is an archivist, then you should convince to pursue some Druid spells. Otherwise, you're kind of screwed for options, there.

Dyllan
2009-03-02, 11:33 AM
Well, I guess I'll just have to wait until I find out how the DM is handling my starting gear. Then I'll talk to him about getting some kind of items based on the fang spells.

That, or I could talk to him about vow of poverty... but, that's always seemed a bit too unbalanced to me.

RTGoodman
2009-03-02, 12:52 PM
Well, if you can enchant the amulet of natural attacks like a normal weaon (I don't know since I don't have Savage Species), then check out the transmuting weapon property from Magic Item Compendium. For a +2-equivalent bonus, if you hit your opponent with DR as normal on one round, it transmutes to overcome all damage reduction starting at the beginning of the next round. It lasts for ten rounds (but resets on each successful attack) or until you hit a creature with a different type of DR.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 01:33 PM
Well, I guess I'll just have to wait until I find out how the DM is handling my starting gear. Then I'll talk to him about getting some kind of items based on the fang spells.

That, or I could talk to him about vow of poverty... but, that's always seemed a bit too unbalanced to me.

If by unbalanced, you mean far weaker than standard WBL you are correct. It might fix the alignment issue, but there are much better ways to do that.

Keld Denar
2009-03-02, 01:50 PM
Well, if you can enchant the amulet of natural attacks like a normal weaon (I don't know since I don't have Savage Species), then check out the transmuting weapon property from Magic Item Compendium. For a +2-equivalent bonus, if you hit your opponent with DR as normal on one round, it transmutes to overcome all damage reduction starting at the beginning of the next round. It lasts for ten rounds (but resets on each successful attack) or until you hit a creature with a different type of DR.

Normally, I'm a fan of Transmuting, but in the case of the OP I'd recommend Shadowstriking instead. Its a +3 instead of a +2, but is always active. Being a Dire Tiger, I'd imagine much of his combat is gonna be Pounce + UAS + Claw Claw Bite Rake Rake. Most of his damage is gonna be in the first round, so Transmuting is gonna be too slow.

Also, I'd talk to your DM. An Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 Shadowstriking costs a whopping 48,000g. Thats more jink than a Ring of Freedom of Movement and probably about 1/2 of your WBL at that point. Maybe see if you can get something custom, like bypass 5 points of all DR as a +1 equiv which upgrades to bypass 10 as a +2 equiv (total) which upgrades to bypass all DR as a +3 equiv. Also see if you can enchant it for the price of a weapon instead of the obscenely inflated price of the Amulet (MIC did away with most unusual slot cost modifiers, which is what makes the Amulet so expensive).

MammonAzrael
2009-03-02, 01:58 PM
First, I'd recommend against the Vow of Poverty. The feat is very much intended for flavor reasons, to allow certain character concepts to remain viable. It should never be taken for it's mechanical benefits.

The Necklace of Natural Attacks is probably the the simplest, most consistent option available to you, even if it is expensive (74400 GP :smalleek:). Talk to your DM about that price, you may be able to get the rakes counted as claws, or a general reduction of the price. The unfortunate thing with going this route is that it requires the first round of attacks to be subject to DR. You could also add the Wounding property, which would be brutal with the number of attacks, and help you care less about DR, as long as you cause at least 1 point of damage.

Also, Monk might make a good dip, grabbing that Imp Unarmed strike, an extra attack through flurry, bonus feats, Evasion, and a good boost to saves.

Spells have already been mentioned, and those really only require talking to your party caster to have them on hand just in case.


If by unbalanced, you mean far weaker than standard WBL you are correct. It might fix the alignment issue, but there are much better ways to do that.

Are you just going to post negative, unhelpful criticism, or are you actually going to address the OP eventually? For instance, what are these "much better ways" to do that?

Advocate
2009-03-02, 02:23 PM
{Scrubbed}

MammonAzrael
2009-03-02, 02:42 PM
I have already addressed the OP and answered that question. Are you going to actually read the thread, or just attack me for no reason?

Your first post only criticizes the OP's group's choices of what sources to and not to play with.

You second does mention and suggest Align Fang, but nothing else. This does nothing to help overcome DR/Magic or DR/Metal X, both of which are just as common, if not more common, than alignment-based DR.

Your third post criticizes the suggestion of VoP as a method of getting around alignment-based DR (which I agree with, but for a different reason), and suggests there are much better ways to do so. This implies multiple superior options, none of which you mention. If you were referring only to alignment-based DR, which you did mention in your second post, then I apologize, as I did not initially read it that way.

And it still does not help the OP overcome other forms of DR.

Regardless, I do not want to derail this thread. So that is all I will say on it. (obviously, you can PM me if you still wish to discuss anything).

Keld Denar: Where is the Shadowstriking enhancement from? I've never heard of it before.

Eldariel
2009-03-02, 02:50 PM
Your first post only criticizes the OP's group's choices of what sources to and not to play with.

You second does mention and suggest Align Fang, but nothing else. This does nothing to help overcome DR/Magic or DR/Metal X, both of which are just as common, if not more common, than alignment-based DR.

Your third post criticizes the suggestion of VoP as a method of getting around alignment-based DR (which I agree with, but for a different reason), and suggests there are much better ways to do so. This implies multiple superior options, none of which you mention. If you were referring only to alignment-based DR, which you did mention in your second post, then I apologize, as I did not initially read it that way.

And it still does not help the OP overcome other forms of DR.

Regardless, I do not want to derail this thread. So that is all I will say on it. (obviously, you can PM me if you still wish to discuss anything).

Keld Denar: Where is the Shadowstriking enhancement from? I've never heard of it before.

While I'm not Keld Denar...Tome of Magic: Shadow Magic.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 03:17 PM
Your first post only criticizes the OP's group's choices of what sources to and not to play with.

You second does mention and suggest Align Fang, but nothing else. This does nothing to help overcome DR/Magic or DR/Metal X, both of which are just as common, if not more common, than alignment-based DR.

Your third post criticizes the suggestion of VoP as a method of getting around alignment-based DR (which I agree with, but for a different reason), and suggests there are much better ways to do so. This implies multiple superior options, none of which you mention. If you were referring only to alignment-based DR, which you did mention in your second post, then I apologize, as I did not initially read it that way.

And it still does not help the OP overcome other forms of DR.

Regardless, I do not want to derail this thread. So that is all I will say on it. (obviously, you can PM me if you still wish to discuss anything).

Keld Denar: Where is the Shadowstriking enhancement from? I've never heard of it before.

...Do you actually need me to spell out that Greater Magic Fang exists? Someone else covered the metal fang spells. Which again brings us back to 'read the thread before attacking me'.

Dyllan
2009-03-02, 03:31 PM
I thought about a level of monk. However, I decided giving up 1 BAB (and thus getting into Primeval a level later) wasn't worth it for one feat and the ability to get one extra attack in exchange for a -2 on all my attacks (a total of 8 attacks right now).

Maybe the way to go is to just try to find ways to up my attack bonus so I can afford to Power Attack through any DR...

The reason Vow of Poverty seems mechanically good is because I expect my DM to give less than standard WPL, based on the total wealth of the other characters at this point. But I did feel a bit dirty even suggesting it, because I do think it would be too forced to try to roleplay that with this character.

The other thing I was considering was trying to find a way to get DR myself... as that would allow me to ignore similar DR with my unarmed strikes. But, that's likely even more difficult.