PDA

View Full Version : A Spellcaster Killer



kalt
2009-03-02, 10:56 AM
Well lets just say my last character came to an unfortunate end by a dragon so now I need a new one. We are playing in the second Darkness adventure arc for those that are aware of it. The main enemies are drow and demons so I don't think casters will be something that I will ever be lacking. I figured I would try my luck at a caster killer so a spellthief seemed like a decent start. If anyone else has anyother caster killers (I'm kinda interested in seeing a Runescarred barbarian build) please post them up.

Strongheart Halfling
Spellthief 20
ST 1: Weapon Finesse, SH: TWF, Blind Fight, (Flaw: )
ST 3: Pierce Magical Concealment
ST 6: Staggering Strike
ST 9: Arcane Strike
ST 12: Mage Slayer
ST 15: Practiced Spellcaster
ST 18: Free

Im AFB so these feats might not be perfect since I don't know the prereqs for them. If I'm missing something just point it out and i'll make sure I get it fixed.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-03-02, 11:26 AM
Honestly, your best chance as an anti-caster is as a caster.

kalt
2009-03-02, 12:28 PM
I'm aware of that, but it is always fun to try something challenging.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 12:38 PM
Honestly, your best chance as an anti-caster is as a caster.

+1. If you just want to feed casters with free XP and loot, throw that weak build at them.

If you want to actually threaten casters, much less have a chance to kill them you must be a gish, and you must make use of an AMF that does not affect you, so your spells and items still work fine, as long as you aren't trying to get them through the AMF.

The simplest and most straight forward way of doing this is a LE Cloistered Cleric 1/Artificer x.

The CC dip is for Law Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and the Pride domain. You can substitute Animal for Law, just get both.

Abuse the **** out of Persistent Spell, relying on the AMF that does not affect you to block Dispels. Eternal Wands + Metamagic Item: Persist goes a long way towards making this a part of your daily routine. Chain/Reach too, to allow more Persist opportunities. Among other things, this includes Lion's Charge and Wraithstrike. Bite of the Werebear later, as in when you get it.

Take advantage of the fact you get to use your WBL more efficiently than anyone else to gear up massively. Your weapon is a +1 (lots of special properties) two hander with reach. Your armor is a +1 (lots of special properties) mithril breastplate. Your shield is a +1 Animated (lots of special properties) heavy shield. Obviously load up on the other staples. Utility stuff too. You have GMW and Magic Vestment. Make use of them.

Tehnar
2009-03-02, 12:41 PM
I would rather go ranged. Pick up the feat that allows you to sneak attack with crossbows at 60 ft range (i think its PHB2). Or you could try hand crossbow focus (I think its Drow from the underdark)

However im note sure how well do the mage slayer line of feats mesh with spellthief. Maybe go without them and invest in some that will allow you more mobility and other options/defences vs spellcasters.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-03-02, 12:44 PM
I'm aware of that, but it is always fun to try something challenging.


Sounds like fun. Allow me to direct you to this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3576.0) for some decent ideas.

kalt
2009-03-02, 12:59 PM
Sounds like fun. Allow me to direct you to this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3576.0) for some decent ideas.

Sadly I'm on a work PC and that link is blocked. I'll have to wait until the weekend to get to it since I'm traveling this week.

Plus, guys I am aware that a caster is much more useful at killing other casters than noncasters. This character is not a theoretical pvp build, but one that will actually be played. So I can't plan out a full build and rely too heavily on certain magic items because not everything is available. If I die, well that's alright with me I don't mind the character is a piece of paper to me and I'll get over it. My DM would laugh his butt off if I even tried to bring an artificer to the table so that's not going to work. AMF is a nice thought and I'll find a way to bring that to into the mold (I know it is a runescarred Barbarians list). Seriously it is very easy to make a magekiller using another full caster the challenge comes in trying to pull it off when obviously you are at the disadvantage.

I have to admit though I think playing a counterspeller would be kind of interesting and incredibly frustrating to play against. IIRC a sorceror is the way to go for that isn't it? If anyone has any advice or a build incorporating that idea I would love to see it.

Keld Denar
2009-03-02, 01:01 PM
You got your prereqs screwed up. Mageslayer is a prereq for Pierce Magical Concealment and Staggering Strike has a +6 BAB requirement, and where you have it only gives you a +4.

Also, you do know that Spelltheif is 1/2 casting, and that Mageslayer and PMC both give you -4 CL each? That means at level 20 even with Practiced Spellcaster you will only have a CL of 6. You won't even have a positive CL until level 10 (thus, you can't cast ANY spells) and when you take PS at level 12, your CL will dip back down to -2 and won't come positive until 15 when you take Practiced Spellcaster to bump it back up to 3.

Soooo...
If you don't use the CL = ML, I'd go with a PsyWar>Slayer

Otherwise I'd try something either without caster levels and take Mageslayer, or be a full caster yourself.

kalt
2009-03-02, 01:15 PM
hmm nicely noted on the mage slayer thing, scrap that idea. Psychic warrior into slayer sounds like a decent idea.

Keld Denar
2009-03-02, 01:36 PM
Check with your DM first...most that I know run on a CL=ML basis for this. Granted, PsyWar gets full MLs/level instead of half like a Spellthief, but this would make it really hard to manifest much in the case that you can not spend more PP on a power than you have MLs.

Having a ML < 0 for 8 whole levels kinda defeats the purpose of being a PsyWar. Otherwise you are just a rogue without SA, effectively.

As with everything else, consult your DM first.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-03-02, 01:47 PM
hmm nicely noted on the mage slayer thing, scrap that idea. Psychic warrior into slayer sounds like a decent idea.

Yeah, that could be pretty cool. I'd suggest picking up Expanded Knowledge to grab some good Psion Powers that could help you overcome the defenses of enemy casters.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 01:47 PM
Sadly I'm on a work PC and that link is blocked. I'll have to wait until the weekend to get to it since I'm traveling this week.

Plus, guys I am aware that a caster is much more useful at killing other casters than noncasters. This character is not a theoretical pvp build, but one that will actually be played. So I can't plan out a full build and rely too heavily on certain magic items because not everything is available. If I die, well that's alright with me I don't mind the character is a piece of paper to me and I'll get over it. My DM would laugh his butt off if I even tried to bring an artificer to the table so that's not going to work. AMF is a nice thought and I'll find a way to bring that to into the mold (I know it is a runescarred Barbarians list). Seriously it is very easy to make a magekiller using another full caster the challenge comes in trying to pull it off when obviously you are at the disadvantage.

I have to admit though I think playing a counterspeller would be kind of interesting and incredibly frustrating to play against. IIRC a sorceror is the way to go for that isn't it? If anyone has any advice or a build incorporating that idea I would love to see it.

Ain't no theory about it. If you want to actually kill casters, you either need to be a better caster, or you need to get all the advantages of casters, while negating the disadvantages imposed by the other guy. That means either your build needs to be stronger, or you need to be an Extraordinary Spell Aimed gish. Full stop.

If the runescarred Barbarian can make the AMF not affect himself, you're starting to get somewhere, but still don't have much in the way of spells. If he can't, then all you're doing is turning yourself off and giving yourself up as free XP and loot.

If you can't rely on certain magic items, that's even more reason to not even consider touching anything other than one of the above, as they make their own items, and don't automatically Epic Fail if they can't get one of the many items absolutely essential to giving them any chance at all.

If your DM would laugh at an Artificer, he would laugh at any of the other Big Five, so you can pretty much dismiss the idea of being relevant against them outright. If he wouldn't, point that out.

There is no place for handicapping yourself when you actually mean to go against the best classes in the game and serve as anything more than a source of easy resources. Full stop. They're God tier, you better not hold anything back.

Counterspeller = feel free to waste your own actions until you provide free XP and loot to the enemy. Especially if you're a Sorcerer, where you don't even get the depth of spell pool to make that work.

Mage Slayer in general is A Trap, because the only characters who can use it are the ones that are the least relevant against casters anyways. If you don't threaten reach + adjacent, you get negated entirely by 5 foot steps. Even if you do, it doesn't do anything against Swift or Immediate actions, so even if you get next to one, who you actually have a > 10% chance to hit before counting AC, they still just yawn, move away, and slaughter you.

Instead, be a better caster or a gish. Since you maintain your mobility, getting to them isn't a problem, and since you did the AMF thing, you can actually hit them without making yourself irrelevant and groundbound instead.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-02, 01:53 PM
Try using a Whisper Gnome with Silencing Strike and Extra Silence, all from Races of Stone. Also be sure to get the feat Darkstalker from Lords of Madness.

kalt
2009-03-02, 01:59 PM
Well we are level 8, which I noticed that I forgot to mention, but either way that is a bit too steep of a hit. So I'm thinking maybe going with a counterspeller might be kind of interesting.

So I guess a sorceror would probably be the smart route to go. I know there is a charop counterspeller thing out there, but sadly that is blocked on the work PC. So here is my initial idea.

Strongheart Halfling
Alt feature: the one that trades your familiar for metamagic without casting time increase.

S1 Improved Counterspell, Bonus: Imp Initiative
S3 Heighten Spell
S6 Reactive counterspell
S9 Rapid Counterspell
S12 SF
S15 SF
Archmange
16-20

I think this looks like it would do a pretty decent job at counter spelling and being an all around obnoxious thing to have to play against. I'd like to do IotSFV, but it is banned along with Incantatrix.

Eldariel
2009-03-02, 02:09 PM
Efficient Counterspelling basically comes down to Battlemagic Perception [HoB], Ring of Spell-Battle [MiC] and the kicker, Divine Defiance [FCII] which allows you to always counter spells as an immediate action. The Reactive Counterspell-line is worthless unless you're going epic because countering a spell requires you to give up your next turn, effectively giving up all, your immediate-, move- and standard actions just for one of your opponent's standard actions.

As any magic-player might know, such tempo trades can be winning, but you need to be ahead (such as with tools that are hurting the opponent over time and need turns to work their magic, or auxillary things attacking the opponent) for the tempo trade to produce any worthwhile results and even then, there're generally better means of dealing with spellcasting than giving up your turns to counter.


The classic CO Dispeller starts off with Cloistered Cleric 1/Abjurer 3/Master Specialist X. That nicely enables Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil without much trouble, although Archmage is also very handy in combination with Master Specialist's level 10 ability. The Cleric-dip is necessary and non-Illumians actually need to burn a feat to qualify for Divine Defiance, but seeing that Divine Defiance is the feat that makes it all work, you still gotta go for it. Getting something like Inquisition-domain and Pride or Competition or some such also synergizes the abilities great with countermagic and a Krau-sigil Illumian even ignores the caster level loss. But yea, that's enough.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-02, 02:11 PM
Don't remember specifics, but Witchborn binder, and Suel archanamach both have some anticaster stuff

kalt
2009-03-02, 02:14 PM
Ain't no theory about it.

I don't see where I claim that it was just theory I'm aware that it is hands down the best way to go about things I'd just kind of like the challenge and was wondering if I could get the best out of what I was proposing. I'm not looking to play an absolutely crazy strong character just one that focuses in certain things and lets other players in the group shine as well.

In terms of rules it isn't that the DM just bans certain classes he just bans certain things. Like for a DMM persist cleric. He has banned the DMM part of it along with nightsticks. He is aware of the strategy and just doesn't want it in his campaign, which I guess I'm okay with.

Also, I'm not really sure if a counterspeller is a bad strategy anyway if you can get them off as immediate actions and can use any spell from that school to use as a counterspell combined with heighten to pull it off. As a one on one duel I can see the problem, but there is a party around me so I'd think it would be a decent way to lock him down while the party mops up the rest of the encounter. The problem with always aiming at just being a better caster than the enemy is that it will invaribly fail because the DM can just tweak things to overcome cheese and it wouldn't be fun for everyone else and this is just a beer and pretzel kind of game for us.

Keld Denar
2009-03-02, 02:20 PM
Hey Eld, do a quick Ctr + F and find/replace all instances of Focused with Master and then put Focused Specialist in front of Abjurer in your build and you'll have it 100% correct.

That is all. :P

Eldariel
2009-03-02, 02:30 PM
Hey Eld, do a quick Ctr + F and find/replace all instances of Focused with Master and then put Focused Specialist in front of Abjurer in your build and you'll have it 100% correct.

That is all. :P

Thank you, I was wondering why it sounded so weird and I kept trying to type "Master" before I fixed it into "Focused Specialist". That explains a thing or two. Although how I screwed that up, I have no clue; I'm not even drunk so I can't even use that feeble excuse.

Well, whatever, at least mistaking what I meant is relatively difficult :)

kalt
2009-03-02, 02:38 PM
So the general Idea would be Cloistered Cleric 1/Focuses Specialist Abjurer 3/ Master specialist xxx/ into archmage I guess?

Race Illumian

Feat: 1 Divine Defiance 3. SF: Abj 6. Extra Turning

Eldariel
2009-03-02, 02:45 PM
So the general Idea would be Cloistered Cleric 1/Focuses Specialist Abjurer 3/ Master specialist xxx/ into archmage I guess?

Race Illumian

Feat: 1 Divine Defiance 3. SF: Abj 6. Extra Turning

Some such. Extra Turning isn't probably worth the feat though; pick Undeath-domain if you must - only Inquisition really has sizable enough bonus to be irreplaceable. But yea, Chain Spell is a fine metamagic to have (Chained Dispel can quickly rip opponent of all his magic items for the duration of the encounter, along with his personal buffs). You could also further buff your Dispel-checks of course with Elven Spell Lore and what-have-you. That's probably not worth it though. Metamagic, casting enhancers and such is the way to go.

EDIT: Also, Focused Specialist is questionable. Standard Specialist may work just fine too; on some levels, Focused Specialist is nice, but giving up a whole extra school... You won't be just countering spells all your life.

AdamSmasher
2009-03-02, 02:53 PM
I'm actually going to recommend either a swift hunter build, a warblade, or something like this:

Duskblade 3/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Blackguard 2/Warlock 9/Sorcerer 4

Take the ghost template from Ghostwalk, get a monk's belt and take Ascetic Mage. You'll have charisma to saves three times and to AC twice, plus a few warocks goodies. With the shadow creature template and darkstalker, a caster can barely touch you. The downside is that your offense will suck.

Ire
2009-03-02, 02:56 PM
Level Class Feats/Special Abilities
1 Spellthief Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Focus (Illusion), Able Learner Sneak Attack(+1d6), Trapfinding, Murky Eyed, Non-Combatant, Steal Spell(1)
2 Wizard (Evoker) Scribe Scroll
3 Wizard (Evoker) Empower Spell
4 Wizard (Evoker)
5 Master Specialist Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
6 Unseen Seer Master Spellthief Sneak Attack(+2d6), Steal Spell(3)
7 Arcane Trickster Ranged Legerdemain (1/day)
8 Arcane Trickster Sneak Attack(+3d6), Steal Spell(4)
9 Arcane Trickster Metamagic School Focus (Evocation) Impromptu Sneak Attack (1/day)
10 Arcane Trickster Sneak Attack(+4d6), Steal Spell(5)
11 Arcane Trickster Ranged Legerdemain (2/day)
12 Arcane Trickster Energy Gestalt Sneak Attack(+5d6), Conceal Spellcasting, Steal Spell(6)
13 Archmage Mastery of Shaping
14 Archmage Spell Power +1, Steal Spell(7)
15 Archmage Maximize Spell Mastery of Counterspelling
16 Archmage Mastery of Elements, Steal Spell(8)
17 Arcane Trickster Impromptu Sneak Attack (2/day)
18 Arcane Trickster Chain Spell Sneak Attack(+6d6), Steal Spell(9)
19 Arcane Trickster Ranged Legerdemain (3/day)
20 Arcane Trickster Sneak Attack(+7d6)


Evoker/AT mage killer (human)

Evil the Cat
2009-03-02, 02:57 PM
For something more unusual that will decimate casters,

Hexblade 3, Monk 2, Fighter 1, Occult slayer 5.

Use a reach polearm, and take the mage slayer feats.

feats: combat reflexes(monk), imp. grapple or stunning fist(monk)(both stun and grapple mess up spellcasters pretty effectively in most cases), imp init(H), Combat Expertise (1), Improved Trip(Ftr), mage slayer(3), pierce mag protection(6), pretty much anything else; power attack is usually a good one with a 2-h weapon and good BAB.

At lvl 11, BAB is 10, base saves are 5/5/10 , with + cha to all saves vs magic, +3 to all saves vs magic, mettle, evasion, nondetection, immunity to anything mind affecting, detect magic at will, and a 2/day spell turning.

With reach weapon, imp unarmed from mnk, and mage slayer, they can neither cast defensively, nor get away with a 5-foot step. Tripping them, then making another attack with imp. trip for the aoo seems like it should certainly ruin casters pretty effectively.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 02:58 PM
Don't remember specifics, but Witchborn binder, and Suel archanamach both have some very weak, trap anticaster stuff

Fixed.


I don't see where I claim that it was just theory I'm aware that it is hands down the best way to go about things I'd just kind of like the challenge and was wondering if I could get the best out of what I was proposing. I'm not looking to play an absolutely crazy strong character just one that focuses in certain things [Killing casters] and lets other players in the group shine as well.

These goals are in direct opposition to each other. Also, you did say you didn't want a theory build, or something to that effect. You are either crazy strong and can actually kill casters, or you are not and merely amuse them mildly. Choose one.


Also, I'm not really sure if a counterspeller is a bad strategy anyway if you can get them off as immediate actions and can use any spell from that school to use as a counterspell combined with heighten to pull it off. As a one on one duel I can see the problem, but there is a party around me so I'd think it would be a decent way to lock him down while the party mops up the rest of the encounter. The problem with always aiming at just being a better caster than the enemy is that it will invaribly fail because the DM can just tweak things to overcome cheese and it wouldn't be fun for everyone else and this is just a beer and pretzel kind of game for us.

Still only half decent Action Denial, since it's burning up your actions too. Also, the DM has less time to optimize any given thing than you, because he has more things to worry about. So no. And to preempt the other part of that, power tripping BS where he just makes it not work has no place in this debate.

The thing is that the 'Counterspell build' is also the 'Dispel build'... which means you can just aim some super Chained Dispel at them, remove every buff, and turn off every item for 1d4 rounds. At which point they've completely fallen off the RNG and can just ya know, be killed. No need to burn all those actions and resources just stopping them. Turn them off completely, with no save.

kalt
2009-03-02, 03:05 PM
That is a good point on the Focused Specialist that would be a lot of barred schools and my spells memorized per day would probably be very hampered by that.

so domains: Undeath, inquisition

Feats:
1.Divine Defiance
3. SF: abj
6: chain spell

also thanks for the other spellcaster killer builds everyone those looks pretty darn nasty!

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-02, 03:07 PM
Perhaps you could make an Arcane Archer/Sublime Chord Antimagic Shooter:
Elf
Hexblade 3/Paladin 3/Suel Arcanamarch 4/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Archer 2/Abjurant Champion 5 come to mind, but that isn't exactly functional until later levels; in the meantime you get +Cha to saves twice against arcane spells and spell-like abilities, and close to full Cha based spellcasting, free extended on spells targeting you, and some other nice bonuses.

It requires an Ebberon feat: Aereni Focus, so there's probably an easier way to do it :p

Edit: forgot to say what he actually does, Arcane Archer allows him to imbue and shoot an arrow with a spell as a standard action; he'll use this ability to stick an Anti Magic Field on the tip of said arrow and hurl it at any given spellcaster which he wishes to slay.

Eldariel
2009-03-02, 03:08 PM
Level Class Feats/Special Abilities
1 Spellthief Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Focus (Illusion), Able Learner Sneak Attack(+1d6), Trapfinding, Murky Eyed, Non-Combatant, Steal Spell(1)
2 Wizard (Evoker) Scribe Scroll
3 Wizard (Evoker) Empower Spell
4 Wizard (Evoker)
5 Master Specialist Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
6 Unseen Seer Master Spellthief Sneak Attack(+2d6), Steal Spell(3)
7 Arcane Trickster Ranged Legerdemain (1/day)
8 Arcane Trickster Sneak Attack(+3d6), Steal Spell(4)
9 Arcane Trickster Metamagic School Focus (Evocation) Impromptu Sneak Attack (1/day)
10 Arcane Trickster Sneak Attack(+4d6), Steal Spell(5)
11 Arcane Trickster Ranged Legerdemain (2/day)
12 Arcane Trickster Energy Gestalt Sneak Attack(+5d6), Conceal Spellcasting, Steal Spell(6)
13 Archmage Mastery of Shaping
14 Archmage Spell Power +1, Steal Spell(7)
15 Archmage Maximize Spell Mastery of Counterspelling
16 Archmage Mastery of Elements, Steal Spell(8)
17 Arcane Trickster Impromptu Sneak Attack (2/day)
18 Arcane Trickster Chain Spell Sneak Attack(+6d6), Steal Spell(9)
19 Arcane Trickster Ranged Legerdemain (3/day)
20 Arcane Trickster Sneak Attack(+7d6)


Evoker/AT mage killer (human)

Care to elaborate on how that actually kills casters?

afroakuma
2009-03-02, 03:10 PM
Advocate, do you actually intend to help him with the build he's trying to develop, or are you merely wanting to remind us over and over again that casters are the greatest thing since sliced bread and that his goal is useless?

We got that memo, thanks. :smallannoyed: We get it a fair bit.

He's trying to develop an interesting build that's not a given win. Sure, he's guaranteed to die against even marginally well-made casters, but


the DM has less time to optimize any given thing than you, because he has more things to worry about.


power tripping BS where he just makes it not work has no place in this debate.

If the DM sets up every caster to be able to take out the build of the player who's playing an anti-caster, then he's not playing give-and-take. If he were, he would tell kalt on seeing the sheet: "This is not going to work."

Now, you've set out your position very clearly as "out-caster the casters." His request is for something that's not that; it's been suggested and it's simply not what he wants to go with. So please: offer him constructive advice in another direction.

Arcane_Snowman
2009-03-02, 03:11 PM
Care to elaborate on how that actually kills casters? I think it's meant to blast them into kingdom come with a sneak attack evocation spell. :smallconfused:

kalt
2009-03-02, 03:27 PM
Advocate, do you actually intend to help him with the build he's trying to develop, or are you merely wanting to remind us over and over again that casters are the greatest thing since sliced bread and that his goal is useless?

We got that memo, thanks. :smallannoyed: We get it a fair bit.

He's trying to develop an interesting build that's not a given win. Sure, he's guaranteed to die against even marginally well-made casters, but





If the DM sets up every caster to be able to take out the build of the player who's playing an anti-caster, then he's not playing give-and-take. If he were, he would tell kalt on seeing the sheet: "This is not going to work."

Now, you've set out your position very clearly as "out-caster the casters." His request is for something that's not that; it's been suggested and it's simply not what he wants to go with. So please: offer him constructive advice in another direction.

Thank you, yes that is what I i'm trying to get at. The only other problem I have is that our DM does typically run a meat grinder kind of campaing where our characters fight I'd say around 7-8 encounters a day with mook waves thrown in so even full casters have to really manage their spells. Magic items, while available are not to be relied upon because he uses pregenerated lists of what is available in certain cities and spending limits and so forth. Our entire group has been playing D&D when it was AD&D and are aware of the awesomeness that a caster posesses and that yes it is the easiest route to go for power. I'm just trying to go the unconventional route, and that makes it a little harder to build and it will leave gaps in your character, which is fun because not everyone else in the party has these gaps. If the character dies that is okay, I gave something different a try and it failed.

Advocate
2009-03-02, 03:30 PM
Advocate, do you actually intend to help him with the build he's trying to develop, or are you merely wanting to remind us over and over again that casters are the greatest thing since sliced bread and that his goal is useless?

We got that memo, thanks. :smallannoyed: We get it a fair bit.

He's trying to develop an interesting build that's not a given win. Sure, he's guaranteed to die against even marginally well-made casters, but





If the DM sets up every caster to be able to take out the build of the player who's playing an anti-caster, then he's not playing give-and-take. If he were, he would tell kalt on seeing the sheet: "This is not going to work."

Now, you've set out your position very clearly as "out-caster the casters." His request is for something that's not that; it's been suggested and it's simply not what he wants to go with. So please: offer him constructive advice in another direction.

You've just managed to epically twist my words. 'Just make it not work' means there is no legitimate reason why it would not work, such as an enemy rolling a 1 vs a SoD they are not immune to, and not falling over dead. It does not apply to scenarios in which the given tactic would legitimately not work... such as the so called anti caster label on a build that cannot actually do so. And if you're arguing otherwise, it's time for some Epic Story Lawyering where you call your character an anti everything, and simply by virtue of this empty fluff proceed to kill everything, because it'd suck if your anti everything build could not actually kill everything right? *insert eye rolling smiley here*

Also, it requires no specific effort on the part of the DM to make casters kill a weak anti caster build. From an IC standpoint, they probably can't even tell the difference between them and a plain old beatstick or backstabber. They just do whatever they'd normally do, and it works anyways, because the weak anti casters are no better at dealing with that stuff than the mooks.

As for his build, I told him the only way it would work. If he is not willing to do that, I've moved onto the next step, which is that the only constructive advice possible is to tell him his goal is unattainable and that he should try something else. As you yourself admit, anything other than the stupidest and/or most foolish of casters will slaughter him... which given their Int and Wis based natures...

Also, lol at relying on SA against a caster. Or elemental damage.

And since apparently this is a hard campaign, all of that gets multiplied considerably. All the more reason to make a serious character or none at all.

afroakuma
2009-03-02, 03:40 PM
As for his build, I told him the only way it would work.

No, you told him that it would not work, and to build a better caster.


If he is not willing to do that

the very essence of his query...


I've moved onto the next step, which is that the only constructive advice possible is to tell him his goal is unattainable

Which is not constructive advice, because what you are saying is that he should jettison his idea for the sake of optimization.


As you yourself admit, anything other than the stupidest and/or most foolish of casters will slaughter him

Evidently I did not convey enough sarcasm. My apologies.


which given their Int and Wis based natures...

All the Int in the world won't help a wizard who's never had the opportunity to learn the most useful spells. Just because a wizard is smart doesn't mean he's got access to the greatest spell selection. But that's another discussion entirely, and one I do not intend to participate in.

To revisit:


I've moved onto the next step, which is that the only constructive advice possible is to tell him his goal is unattainable

I assume that is also the last step. You have successfully delivered your message, which has been rejected. Regardless of whether this is the correct choice or not, there is no point in badgering him on it further, or mocking the suggestions of other posters who are trying to give constructive advice.

Ire
2009-03-02, 03:59 PM
Care to elaborate on how that actually kills casters?

You have the same spells as a spellcaster, you have hide/move silently, and do more single-target damage via sneak attack.

kalt
2009-03-02, 04:02 PM
I'm alright with it not being the most optimal path to take. What I do want is using the criteria I've requested make it optimal. You are correct in assuming that this is a hard campaign going from 1st-8th right now, it goes to 18 i believe, we are up to 11 character deaths. In terms of wizards I did have one, but the DM was pretty darn stingy on leaving spells around, I couldn't find the ones that I wanted (conjuration mostly), and only getting 2 a level that I did want was a little thin on greatness. He did die at 3rd level because he failed a fort save to stupid drow poison and was immediately put out of his misery.

I just kind of figured in a drow campaign casters are going to be prevelant, especially of the cleric persuasion, so trying to play a caster killer without playing another arcane caster myself (there are two in the party atm) would be challenging and probably pretty rewarding.

tyckspoon
2009-03-02, 04:12 PM
In terms of wizards I did have one, but the DM was pretty darn stingy on leaving spells around, I couldn't find the ones that I wanted (conjuration mostly), and only getting 2 a level that I did want was a little thin on greatness. He did die at 3rd level because he failed a fort save to stupid drow poison and was immediately put out of his misery.


If you want to give wizarding another try and you know your DM is going to be stingy about giving you opportunities to expand your spellbook, you can try the Collegiate Wizard feat and/or the Elf Wizard substitution levels. Collegiate Wizard gets you up to four automatic spells/level and the Elven Generalist wizard gives you an extra spell when you gain access to a new spell level, so you get four spells/five on most odd levels.

Eldariel
2009-03-02, 04:18 PM
You have the same spells as a spellcaster, you have hide/move silently, and do more single-target damage via sneak attack.

You are a spell level behind though and don't have any class features focused towards fighting other spellcasters. And your damage...if you connect with a spell, your opponent is dead anyways. It's the connecting-part that's difficult and unfortunately, Sneak Attack doesn't help that at all (and Hide/Move Silently still doesn't protect you from Mindsight even with Darkstalker, and even if it did, Superior Invisibility is like to work just as well).

I mean, I can appreciate what you're going for, but I think you're focusing on the wrong problem here; the problem isn't dealing enough damage to kill, the problem is hitting the opponent through all his defenses in the first place before he finishes you. Hide/Move Silently with Darkstalker is a great idea in theory, but Mindsight and the fact that magical hiding is more efficient pretty much negates that. Also, you lack Hide in Plain Sight which negates much of Hide's usefulness.

kalt
2009-03-02, 04:19 PM
While that is a good idea at the moment we are on a drow demiplane with no way off of it at the moment so that would be an interesting point to argue. This would be a good idea depending on how the rest of the campaing will work but at the moment I'm not so sure. The portal into the demiplane that we went through is one was so that is how the new character will get there. If the melee type spellcaster killer dies then I will be tempted, but I typically always play a wizard and thought I would give something very different a try.

elonin
2009-03-02, 04:48 PM
I've been playing around with the idea of a meleeist who hates casters. To keep the charactor plausable he'd still wear items not putting it together that his items were created by casters. For this charactor I thought about going with some melee based who takes spell craft as a cross classed skill to qualify for mage slayer and take combat reflexes. Can't remeber but there is also a feat that has mage slayer as a pre req. And take occult slayer and Kensai to finish. Does this sound decent?

Eldariel
2009-03-02, 05:13 PM
I've been playing around with the idea of a meleeist who hates casters. To keep the charactor plausable he'd still wear items not putting it together that his items were created by casters. For this charactor I thought about going with some melee based who takes spell craft as a cross classed skill to qualify for mage slayer and take combat reflexes. Can't remeber but there is also a feat that has mage slayer as a pre req. And take occult slayer and Kensai to finish. Does this sound decent?

You aren't that good at killing mages, but you do have decent defenses against them so it's not a wasted effort. That said, Occult Slayer has a rather relevant problem; it lacks offensive potential against magicians. Pierce Magical Protection & Concealment are decent feats, but Pierce Protection requires standard action and melee attack, which is hard. Pierce Concealment is a feat every caster killing character with less than +79 Spot should always have.

I've personally had most success as non-magical characters fighting casters with Archers combined with Tome of Battle; being a ranged combatant really enables you to affect mages from further away, especially if you acquire Phasing Arrows (and obviously, a Force Bow) and similar abilities to affect the opponent regardless of where he goes. Such build has potent mobility (thanks to ToB), ranged and melee abilities (again, melee thanks to ToB) and defenses (saves thanks to ToB) & detection abilities (mostly thanks to Epic uses of skills & Weapon of Legacy).


Really, you can't guarantee victory against a caster ever, but building for versatile, lethal, multilayered offense enables you to punish them for their mistakes. A common mistake in these caster killing discussions is the idea that having an insane defense will enable them to defeat casters. Fact is, defense is nothing without offense. Caster offense is naturally so multilayered that in addition to being able to disable all your magical abilities & attack your touch AC and all saves, they can also use no-save abilities and they have access to just about every creature in the game.

This means that eventually you'll be overwhelmed regardless of your defenses; having tough defenses is merely a means of buying time. What you need is strong enough offense to overcome whichever defenses they've opted to go for and to kill them before they have the time to either build an unbeatable offense, or to figure out a hole in your armor and to wreck you.

This is also why casters are the best caster killers; having a hundred spell slots naturally gives you an insanely versatile offense and thus you can attack whatever weaknesses opponent's defense has (or just brute force through them; you have means to actually fight whatever magic they have). As a consequence, the best non-magical caster killer is the one with the largest variety of relevant paths of offense and the strongest defenses without heavy item dependence.

Aquillion
2009-03-02, 06:07 PM
Would you be willing to play a gish (that is, a fighter-type with some casting ability?) That is, are you committed specifically to not being a caster, or are you just committed to being a fighter? Because it's not that hard for a fighter to pick up some spellcasting while maintaining nearly-full BAB.

I would suggest Abjurant Champion. Full BAB, requires 1st level casting, +5 BAB, and the Combat Casting feat to enter (so you only waste one BAB qualifying), and by level 5 it lets you cast Abjurations as a swift action so you can Dispel Magic while still fighting in combat, plus other useful abilities. Good for the fighter who knows just enough magic to negate enemy spells.

kalt
2009-03-02, 07:08 PM
no a gish wouldn't bother me at all. The theme I was looking at was a melee-centric caster killer. That is why I thought a runescarred barbarian might be a decent way to do it. IIRC they have a rather nasty spell list.

Aquillion
2009-03-02, 08:17 PM
Hmm. Well, you could do Abjurant Champion + Jade Phoenix Mage, if you have Tome of Battle (for those who don't know it, it's a full BAB class, despite having 'mage' in the name, and is slightly more martial themed than caster themed despite being a gish.) Jade Phoenix Mage will also give you martial maneuvers + stances, one of the few actually effective abilities to exchange spell levels for bonus damage, and a few abilities to let you get off spells when necessary while still getting close and fighting.

Of course, if you have ToB you don't need a Gish to remain competitive...

Anyway, to look at this from a completely different direction... As someone else said, one mistake people often make when making anti-caster builds is to focus too much on personal defense against spells. Defense only gets you so far, especially since casters have so many options; it's important, but it can't be what carries your build. Another mistake is to focus on abilities that only work when you're adjacent to a caster, or when you get a chance to attack them -- if you can get that far, you've almost won anyway, and don't need too many other tricks.

Focusing on mobility is much more important. Psychic Warriors, actually, make fairly good mage-killers; they can cover ground incredibly fast, personal dimension door past barriers, and make full attacks at the end of it. They also get a few bonus feats that can be spent on those spellcaster-defense-piercing sorts of things. (Of course, the ToB has better ways of doing all that.)

In general, high mobility and good initiative are things that most spellcasters are going to be much more worried about than high saves or special anti-magic defenses.

elonin
2009-03-02, 09:37 PM
If you were responding my question that could go either way. For example I could imagine working it so that the char was trained as a wizard early on then gained the hatred of casters.

About the mage slayer feat the reason for me taking that as a melee type and cross classing for spell craft is that I don't have the negetive level penalty for having that feat. Also I knew that these combos don't take out mages but with combat reflexes and extended reach (from long spear or spiked chain) and mage slayer are what I hope to use to take out casters.

ericgrau
2009-03-03, 12:11 AM
Magic items, while available are not to be relied upon because he uses pregenerated lists of what is available in certain cities and spending limits and so forth.
How does he generate these lists? I've been wanting to do something similar but I haven't thought of how yet. Anything you can send me?

kalt
2009-03-03, 09:07 AM
Truthfully I'm not sure how he generates them, but I believe he assigns each item that he wants in his campaign as a vendor item a number. He then uses a roller with the range set on assigned number and there you go. One the note of melee I went ahead and was looking over the runescarred barbarian and I think that might be a good way to go. Here is what I was thinking so far.

Barbarian 5/Fighter 2/Runescarred Barbarian 9-10/Something 3
Goliath
Str 24
Dex 10
Con 14
Int: 8
Wis 15
Cha 8
Saves:
Fort 9
Ref 2
Wil 6

Feats:
Barb 1: Survivor, Goliath Substitution: Mountain Rage Lion totem barbarian: lost fast movement gain pounce , illiteracy, Rage 1/day
Barb 2: Uncanny Dodge
Barb 3: Power Attack, Trap Sense
Barb 4: Rage 2/day
Barb 5: Improved Uncanny Dodge
Fghtr 1: Ice Troll beserker, Iron Will
Fghtr 2: Improved bullrush
RSB 1: Scribe Runescar
RSB 2: Leap Attack, Extra Rage
RSB 3:Ritual Scarring +1
RSB 4:Spawn of Frons, DR 1/-
RSB 5: Shocktrooper, Extra Rage
RSB 6: Ritual Scarring +2
RSB 7: DR 2/-
RSB 8: Rampaging Bullrush, Greater Rage
RSB 9:Extra Rage, Ritual Scarring 3+
RSB 10:DR 3/-
Xxx 1: Knockback

Need intimidate 5 ranks, Craft (Scarring) 5 ranks, Sense motive 2 ranks

I did a level buy back on goliath and since we are halfway through 8 it doesn't really change my level. Sadly, I can only take a max of +1 LA. The feats to get into RSB are not so great and I pretty much needed the fighter to help make that up. I could drop the ice troll beserker for the wolf one that would give me a bonus on trip, which could be useful. As is the Ice troll gives me a bit of a bump to nat. AC, which can atleast sorta lower the hit to AC from raging. I'm tempted to drop 2 points of str to give me 2 more points of Constitution.

Looking at the runescars that the class can get does make it pretty nice. At the top level you have an antimagic field, which combined with grappling/tripping/bullrushing could make him not too shabby. I figure he will wield a large greatsword and hit stuff rather hard. As is, in a rage with no strength bossting items he will have a 10ft reach with a strength of 30.

Edit: I forgot to note that the point buy is a 73 point buy, 1 Att point = 1 point.

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 09:11 AM
I strongly suggest the Dragonborn-template. It would give you mundane wings meaning you could fly with your Anti-Magic Field making it much more useful against casters (and wouldn't work against your qualifications or anything). Also, you put a lot of points into Wisdom; may be worthwhile to put more into Con and take Steadfast Determination at some point.

kalt
2009-03-03, 09:29 AM
I had to put points into wisdom to be able to cast the spells. If I rely solely on an item my DM will most certainly disjunction it at some point in time. The other problem is we already have a cleric so there will be some competition for wisdom boosting items. I'd have to pick up Endurance as well to get steadfast determination IIRC, which with how feat starved the build is I just don't see it happening.

What is the level adjustment on the dragonborn template? If it is +1 would you recommend dropping goliath, using a normal greatsword, for it? Wings I have to admit would be very nice, but what else would I gain or do you think they are that worth it?

Adumbration
2009-03-03, 10:18 AM
Dragonborn is a +0 LA template, but it also loses you all your previous racial features, except for ability modifiers. You get stuff to replace it, but giving it to Goliath would be InSaNiTY.

By the way, there's a good +2 LA race for a mage killer in Tome of Magic you might want to look into. It's called Karsite. If you can buy out the LA later on, it's excellent. It gets you +2 to Cha and Con, all human traits (including bonus feat and skills), SR 10 + character level, you absorb spells that you resist for healing, and there's a chance that your attacks suppress enemy's magical items. You also gain automatically proficiency with light and medium armor, and martial weapons. You also get - rather useless after low levels - DR 5/magic.

The downside is that you can not cast arcane or divine spells. You can, however, use psionics, spell-like abilities and magical items normally. All in all, it's not a bad bargain.

kalt
2009-03-03, 11:18 AM
So if I went Dragonborn would I then lose powerful build? That would be a heck of a tradeoff if so. Sadly we are only allowed a maximum of a +1 LA.

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 11:24 AM
Mountain Rage makes you Large for real making Powerful Build pretty trivial for the build. As Powerful Build specifically doesn't stack with Mountain Rage, the only losses you'd suffer would be in scenarios where you're fighting but not Raging (why would that ever happen with your Rage-count?). As far as Wisdom goes, buffing it with items should be a fair game; as it's "only" 36000gp (or 16000gp if you have standard Wis of 11-12), getting it Disjunctioned is hardly that bad; you can just get a new one afterwards.

kalt
2009-03-03, 12:24 PM
Hmm that is a good point. So sure why not

Barbarian 5/Fighter 2/Runescarred Barbarian 9-10/Something 3
Dragonborn Goliath
Str 24
Dex 10
Con 18
Int: 8
Wis 11
Cha 8
Saves:
Fort 9
Ref 2
Wil 6

So I guess I just need a +2 periapt of wisdom for a decent amount of time and eventually just a +4 item, which isn't too shabby. Now the real question is does it even make sense to be a Goliath any longer? I mean really I'm paying off a +1 level adjustment for +4str, +2 con, -2 dex and turning large during a rage? I mean I guess I would still haul around a large greatsword and in the offchance of not raging I'd just take the penalty for using an oversized weapon. While those are pretty solid is there anything else out that is close to this?

Edit: Thinking about this a little more I think this is still rather worth the +1LA and the benefit would be very useful for several things. I think this build actually looks pretty good unless anyone has anything else to say.

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 12:28 PM
Mountain Rage. It's not available to non-Goliaths. Effectively, you're paying +1 LA for Large size & +2 extra Str (whenever you're Raging, which should be always when fighting). Seems easily worth it.

Note that Dragonborn adjust you +2 Con, -2 Dex (which should work in your benefit; cut 2 points of Con, add 2 to Dex and you still have 2 to work with; alternatively, eat the Dex-penalty and look at your 20 Con).

kalt
2009-03-03, 12:36 PM
Well noted. Yes I think I will just go ahead and eat the Dex penalty and make it an 8 and make the Con a 20. My armor more than likely will be rather poor so hitpoints will help out greatly.

Str 24
Dex 8
Con 20
Int: 8
Wis 11
Cha 8
Saves:
Fort 12
Ref 1
Wil 4

The one thing that scares me a bit is my saves are just hideous. I will absolutely smash crap while raging, but I sure as heck can spot one very glaring weakness.

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 12:52 PM
Cram Steadfast Determination there somewhere. Sandstorm has "Wasteland Barbarian" ACF that allows switching Improved Uncanny Dodge for Endurance. If you could get a flaw, it would be trivial to fit in there. Without, you could of course multiclass a bit more (Martial Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Monk would all work).

Also note that as you Rage, you get Will-save bonuses. You even get further Will-save bonuses from your improved Con with Steadfast Determination. Also, it eliminates natural 1s on Fort-saves. I strongly suggest you ask for Fractional Saves though; you're really suffering of the save rules as your numbers just happen to be 3n-1, which means that your weak saves just barely don't advance. Fractional saves would basically give you the saves of a singleclassed Barbarian (yes, they would mean you wouldn't get the +2 to Fort for each multiclass, but that shouldn't be that much of an issue).


I can't help but think if Wolf Totem Barbarian wouldn't work better; getting Improved Trip as bonus and being able to pick up the Wolf Berserker-feat would save you Rampaging Bull Rush & Knockback. Now, true, you'll lose the ability to add your PA damage to the pushing, but with high Str and +8 to Trip-checks, you should still be ok. That would open up two feats (but cost you Improved Uncanny Dodge, which would mean that you'd either need to multiclass more or pick both, Endurance and Steadfast Determination).

kalt
2009-03-03, 02:01 PM
Barb 1: Survivor, Goliath Substitution: Mountain Rage Lion totem barbarian: lost fast movement gain pounce , illiteracy, Rage 1/day
Barb 2: Uncanny Dodge
Barb 3: Power Attack, Trap Sense
Barb 4: Rage 2/day
Barb 5: ACF - Endurance for Imp. Uncanny Dodge
Fghtr 1: Wolf Beserker, Iron Will
Fghtr 2: Improved Trip
RSB 1: Scribe Runescar
RSB 2: Steadfast Determination, Extra Rage
RSB 3:Ritual Scarring +1
RSB 4:Spawn of Frons, DR 1/-
RSB 5: Leap Attack, Extra Rage
RSB 6: Ritual Scarring +2
RSB 7: DR 2/-
RSB 8: Shocktrooper, Greater Rage
RSB 9:Extra Rage, Ritual Scarring 3+
RSB 10:DR 3/-
Xxx 1: whatever

Well this looks like it will be pretty solid. I really doubt I'll be able to swing a flaw so this might have to do. So any other changes or does this look pretty solid. For the last feat I really don't have any ideas, but this looks pretty good i think.

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 02:14 PM
Mage Slayer would be a solid, on-theme feat for the last one. It shouldn't affect the CL of your Runescars as they aren't really spells and you don't really have a caster level. That said, I just noticed that you removed Improved Bull Rush too, which happens to be a prerequisite for Shock Trooper, so I guess that solves that.

Other option is Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ), which would cost you Uncanny Dodge, but would gain you an extra level to play with (note that Wolf Totem doesn't overlap with Spirit Lion Totem; you can still give up Fast Movement for Pounce just fine); you could acquire something to generate a feat (or replace your Fighter-levels with Ranger-levels; Ranger 2 gets a combat style feat and Dragon Magazine has "Strongarm", which grants Power Attack as level 2 bonus, and Ranger 3 has Endurance).

Also considerable would be Barbarian 2/Ranger 4 (Champion of the Wilds-variant; gets a bonus feat instead of spellcasting on level 4)/Fighter 1 and pick Extra Rage-feat. That would get you:
Improved Trip
Power Attack
Endurance
& 2 open feats

as bonuses; one of the open feats would have to be Extra Rage if you don't want to lose out on Rage-count, but it'd still buy you an extra feat and some Reflex-save improvements (and since Extra Rage gives you 2 Rage-uses, you'd have more of those too). You could also take Favored Enemy: Arcanists, which seems to be precisely on theme, and Track (and Wild Empathy, but who cares?).

kalt
2009-03-03, 02:39 PM
hmm ya I think I will go ahead and keep it as is, putting improved bullrush in there and pushing shocktrooper back. I don't have access to that link on the work computer, but do you just gain improved trip for uncanny dodge? If that is the plan, then I will toss mage slayer in at 18 and call it a wrap. I'll end up having pretty solid saves, the ability to cast AMF and a slew of other really nice spells. Dragon magazines are a no go for sure. I'm really liking all the hit points I'll end up having to help offset my miserable reflex save and lowish armor.

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 03:06 PM
Unfortunately it costs you Improved Uncanny Dodge too meaning you'd need additional multiclassing to get both, Improved Trip & Endurance. If you're willing to lose a point of BAB, you could do a lot with two levels of Martial Rogue, Monk or Psy War.

Person_Man
2009-03-03, 03:25 PM
Various spellcaster killer builds for your consideration:

Evil McEvilton the Evil
Hexblade 4/Whatever 2/Blackguard X

Cha to Saves twice, full BAB, Sneak Attack (pick up Staggering Strike), Rebuke Undead for Divine feats. Your Familiar and Fiendish Servant will be really helpful as well, if you know how to abuse such things. If you're playing at ECL 11, this works even better as a Former Paladin 1/Blackguard 10, in that you get your full Blackguard abilities and spells 5 levels earlier then you should.

Indefatigable the Freedom Fighter
Whatever 1/Paladin of Freedom 4/Hellreaver X

Paladin of Freedom grants Cha to Saves and immunity to Compulsion effects, which is far more valuable then immunity to Fear. Hellreaver (Fiendish Codex II): Has the ability to heal itself or a Good ally 10/20/30 (depending on your level) points every round as a Swift Action. Immunity to Fear, Mettle, Dimensional Anchor (ridiculously useful against re-occurring villans), a Smite-like ability, and a few other minor abilities.

Hentai, the Knight Protector
Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) X
Cha > Dex > Str (13+)> Con > Int (10+) > Wis (dump): Basically, this Knight has three goals:

1) Get access to Standstill (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Stand_Still), Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer (Complete Arcane), Supernatural Opportunist (Tome of Magic), and Frightful Presence (Draconomicon).

2) Getting ridiculous reach. This can be accomplished a number of ways:

Reach Weapon: Doubles reach.
Play a big race
Polymorph: Ask a friend to turn you into something bigger.
Expansion (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person): +1 or +2 size.
Alter Self (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person or Expansion): +1 size.
Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror): +5 ft.
Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness): +5 ft.
Extended Reach (req tentacle like limbs, provided by Inhuman Reach): +5 ft.
3 levels of Warshaper (Comp Warrior): +5 ft, but only with natural weapons.

Some of these options aren't a good choice for this build, but I'd though I'd put them out there anyway. But it should be relatively easy for you to get 30+ feet of reach with a moderate investment. If a friend isn't willing to buff you, take the Arcane Schooling (Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 33) and now you can use wands without UMD.

3) Find a way to consistently deal 40ish damage per hit - not very hard with decent Str, a two handed weapon magic weapon, etc. This will make the Reflex Saves needed to accomplish any type of movement and the Concentration checks needed to cast ridiculously hard.

Put these together with your Knight class abilities (Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender, Daunting Challenge, Test of Mettle) and basically everyone within your reach will be screwed one way or another. Stand near the party Wizard or whoever needs to be protected the most, and the enemies will come to you, even without Test of Mettle.

The down side of this build is that it really doesn't come together until at least ECL 12ish, if not much higher. It lacks any offensive combo besides Fear, though you could certainly add some at high levels. And your DM is definitely going to use lots of very long range enemies against you, so be prepared.

Sir Wisdom the SAD
Elan Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind 5/Sanctified Mind 2-6

A Paladin using the Serenity feat (Dragon Magazine, also on Crystalkeep) uses Wis instead of Cha for all of his class abilities. So now your Wis improves all of your Saves (and it effectively doubles up on your Will Save), and you can use it for Smite (bonus to hit) and Turn Undead uses (various Divine feats).

Sanctified Mind (Lords of Madness) is 6 level, full BAB PrC which provides 5/6 caster or manifester progression (player's choice, and you can explicitly change which you take each level) with the dead level being the first level of the class. Unlike most other classes, you can enter it at ECL 5. It also has some semi-useful class abilities, including Power Resistance based on your HD, which counts as Spell Resistance if your DM is using the transparency rules.

War Mind (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:War_Mind) is a nifty PrC. His best class feature is Sweeping Strike, which can be abused all kinds of ways with Attack of Opportunity combos. But he also gets Wis based Psychic Warrior power progression. It's relatively fast progression, too. At ECL 15, you essentially have the same powers as a 15th level Psychic Warrior.

Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) which allows you to use your Wis bonus for your To-Hit bonus with simple or natural weapons.

Enhanced Elan Resilience (Complete Psionic) improves your Elan ability to spend your Power Points (based on Wis) to negate damage to 4 points per power point spent. You can also burn 1 point to get +4 to your Saves for 1 round. Though you need to be careful about this, as both are an Immediate Action, and thus can be done once per round. You can also get temporary hit points with the Vigor power, and heal with Hostile Empathic Transfer when you need to.

And Mage Slayer feats have no effect on caster levels, as the transparency rules have no effect on feats (otherwise a Psychic Warrior could take Practiced Caster and metamagic feats, which they can't).

Buy a Monk's Belt, and you get Wis to AC (including Touch AC). Improve both AC's even higher by using the Shield and Inertial Armor powers. And since you're not wearing armor, you can buy a Ring of Evasion, just to be extra cautious.

To top it off, take Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) to get free movement every turn, so that you can make a full attack every round. (Not that you need it. You have Hustle. But it's nice to be thorough).

Put it all together, and you get a PC who has Wis based Saves, To-Hit, AC, and (essentially) hit points, with full BAB, 15th level Psychic Warrior abilities, and numerous useful class abilities.

kalt
2009-03-03, 03:38 PM
Barb 1: Survivor, Goliath Substitution: Mountain Rage Lion totem barbarian: lost fast movement gain pounce , illiteracy, Rage 1/day
Barb 2: Uncanny Dodge
Barb 3: Power Attack, Trap Sense
Barb 4: Rage 2/day
Barb 5: ACF - Endurance for Imp. Uncanny Dodge
Fghtr 1: Wolf Beserker, Iron Will
Fghtr 2: Improved Trip
RSB 1: Scribe Runescar
RSB 2: Steadfast Determination, Extra Rage
RSB 3:Ritual Scarring +1
RSB 4:Spawn of Frons, DR 1/-
RSB 5: Leap Attack, Extra Rage
RSB 6: Ritual Scarring +2
RSB 7: DR 2/-
RSB 8: Mage Slayer, Greater Rage
RSB 9:Extra Rage, Ritual Scarring 3+
RSB 10:DR 3/-
Xxx 1: I dunno Pierce Magical Concealment??

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 03:44 PM
I think Shock Trooper is better. Pierce Magical Concealment would be nice, but requires Blind-Fight which you lack. Unless you're going to add some Medium BAB two-feat classes or flaws, I think your last build is the best you'll be getting.

kalt
2009-03-03, 04:03 PM
I would tend to agree. I'm thinking that build looks pretty devastating to me.

Barb 1: Survivor, Goliath Substitution: Mountain Rage Lion totem barbarian: lost fast movement gain pounce , illiteracy, Rage 1/day
Barb 2: Uncanny Dodge
Barb 3: Power Attack, Trap Sense
Barb 4: Rage 2/day
Barb 5: ACF - Endurance for Imp. Uncanny Dodge
Fghtr 1: Wolf Beserker, Iron Will
Fghtr 2: Improved Bullrush
RSB 1: Scribe Runescar
RSB 2: Steadfast Determination, Extra Rage
RSB 3:Ritual Scarring +1
RSB 4:Spawn of Frons, DR 1/-
RSB 5: Leap Attack, Extra Rage
RSB 6: Ritual Scarring +2
RSB 7: DR 2/-
RSB 8: Shocktrooper, Greater Rage
RSB 9:Extra Rage, Ritual Scarring 3+
RSB 10:DR 3/-
Xxx 1: Mage Slayer

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 04:10 PM
Aye, though Improved Trip is still necessary to get that extra attack after tripping. Yea, that's what I'd play; screw Mage Slayer, you can't fit it. Besides, it isn't that good for you anyways as you aren't playing a control build.

kalt
2009-03-03, 04:20 PM
Ahh so you're saying go this route then:

Feats
Barb 1: Survivor, Goliath Substitution: Mountain Rage Lion totem barbarian: lost fast movement gain pounce , illiteracy, Rage 1/day
Barb 2: Uncanny Dodge
Barb 3: Power Attack, Trap Sense
Barb 4: Rage 2/day
Barb 5: ACF - Endurance for Imp. Uncanny Dodge
Fghtr 1: Wolf Beserker, Iron Will
Fghtr 2: Improved Trip
RSB 1: Scribe Runescar
RSB 2: Steadfast Determination, Extra Rage
RSB 3:Ritual Scarring +1
RSB 4:Spawn of Frons, DR 1/-
RSB 5: Leap Attack, Extra Rage
RSB 6: Ritual Scarring +2
RSB 7: DR 2/-
RSB 8: Improved Bullrush, Greater Rage
RSB 9:Extra Rage, Ritual Scarring 3+
RSB 10:DR 3/-
Xxx 1: Shocktrooper

If I'm still missing what you are trying to say just try a copy/paste of the feats and make the necessary changes. I really appreciate your help though this has made a horrible day of conference calls quite a bit more enjoyable :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 04:26 PM
Yeah, that's what I'd go with :) Your immense Con to Will, Fort & HP is all kinds of awesome combined with your potent offensive abilities and Anti-Magic Field trivializing most of opponents' defenses. Remember that as a large creature, you can choose, from which of your squares the AMF originates which can be handy.

Keld Denar
2009-03-03, 04:51 PM
Maybe something like

Barb2/Hexblade3/OccultSlayer5/RSBerzerker10 would be good?

OS gives you some pretty impressive protections (Scrying, [Mind Affecting], and 2/day targeted) and you'll get 3+cha to all saves against arcane magic. Barb would be Spirit Lion + Wolf Totem which would give you Imp Trip without the Int requirements. Oh, and Pounce.

I'd probably use a reach weapon, and since you are looking for more control than just beating things, I'd highly encourage a Spiked Chain. Glaive + Armor Spikes just doesn't get the job done when someone is adjacent, especially since you can't PA with Armor Spikes.

At least you won't have a certain someone hangin around calling your worthless because you arn't playing a full caster! :P

Triaxx
2009-03-03, 05:20 PM
My preference tends towards Bards, with ranged weapons. The idea is not to beat him at his own game, but make his game beat him. He's going to attack with magic, fine, I'll defend with magic, and with improved counterspelling I don't need the same magic. He's going to hang back and blast, I'll shoot him with one of my highly enchanted bows, based on a composite of the highest strength I'm going to have when I'm buffed. If he wants to send summons, I'll charm them and send them back at him.

Then again, a Cleric, or Ranger with Zen Archery also makes one nasty ranged fighter. Especially if you take a couple of level dip in Monk for Wis to saves.

@kalt & Eladariel: Pierce Magical Protection is probably the one you need.