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View Full Version : The Uses of a Certain Metamagic Feat (3.5)



Alaris
2009-03-02, 04:50 PM
By chance, and by a strange twist of fate, my future character in a 3.5 game has gained a feat that he shouldn't have. He is a Wizard 3, Cleric 2 character, going into Mystic Theurge at 7th.

By central casting, and my DMs own intervention, and with a little luck of the roll, he's gained the feat Sudden Quicken, bypassing all prerequisites.

As a pure caster, and me not being all too knowledgable about casting (I've played a wizard once before), I'd like some advice on how to use this feat effectively.

Granted, I know that there's the "I can cast one more spell in a round than you" use... but I'm sure there are other uses.

I'll appreciate uses for now, and for later, since I do intend to level up quite a bit.

For you information, as I'm sure you need it, he's a Transmutation Specialist, barring the school of Enchantment (Only 1 School Opposed, House Rule).

Thank you very much!

~Alaris

only1doug
2009-03-02, 06:10 PM
By chance, and by a strange twist of fate, my future character in a 3.5 game has gained a feat that he shouldn't have. He is a Wizard 3, Cleric 2 character, going into Mystic Theurge at 7th.

By central casting, and my DMs own intervention, and with a little luck of the roll, he's gained the feat Sudden Quicken, bypassing all prerequisites.

As a pure caster, and me not being all too knowledgable about casting (I've played a wizard once before), I'd like some advice on how to use this feat effectively.

Granted, I know that there's the "I can cast one more spell in a round than you" use... but I'm sure there are other uses.

I'll appreciate uses for now, and for later, since I do intend to level up quite a bit.

For you information, as I'm sure you need it, he's a Transmutation Specialist, barring the school of Enchantment (Only 1 School Opposed, House Rule).

Thank you very much!

~Alaris


Congratulations, [{Link broken. Please don't link there.}]sudden quicken[/URL] is an excellent metamagic feat.

You don't need to worry about preparing for this, its your get out of jail free card. 1/day you can quicken any spell you have without any preparation.

Useage: Save it for emergencies / boss fights.

Combo spells (you didn't list cleric domains), there are some nice combos available where it can be very advantages to follow up a save / suck with a save vs die. (if they pass the save vs suck don't bother sudden quickening the save vs die).

Alaris
2009-03-03, 12:58 AM
I see, I see. Thank you for your response.

And here is mine:

My character has the War and Travel domains (As a Cleric of Odin, I saw those as the best I could get. And the War one fits his background).

Are there any specific examples you can offer me. I can see this feat would be very interesting, and very useful for a boss fight, and that's likely what it would be saved for, but... any specifics?

sonofzeal
2009-03-03, 03:12 AM
Well... the good news is the feat is badass. The bad news is that your character is going to be seriously lagging anyway by this point, and is going to keep lagging for another five levels or so, as it'll take MT a while to undo the damage that your split build has done - but you knew getting into it that you were going to lose out short-term in favour of long-term gain, right?

Anyway, as only1doug said, the best use is in combos or emergencies. Ray of Stupidity + Ray of Stupidity would work well for this, and is equally devastating against Wizards (who will lose the ability to cast their spells) and Barbarians (who stand serious risk of coma). Ray of Clumsiness + Web is also nasty, as the ray will reduce their chances of passing Web's save, and combined they'll put the enemy's dex into the dirt. And of course Scorching Ray + Scorching Ray (or any other direct damage spells) will benefit a lot from this. On the other side, quickening a buff and then making a full attack, or double-buffing an ally on the first round (Enlarge Person + Bull's Strength on the fighter, or Reduce Person + Cat's Grace on the rogue) will win you a lot of friends. Mix and match to taste.

Myrmex
2009-03-03, 04:58 AM
I would strongly recommend against casting a save-or-suck when you could be casting a save-or-die. If you could spend the same resources (action & spell slot) and get a more advantageous outcome, why wouldn't you?

Using a debuff with a save to lower someones saves for a later spell that will kill them is rarely a good idea, as you could have just cast the kill spell twice.

Save-or-suck debuffs are only useful when they stand a better chance of working against an opponent. Slow or web, for instance, against zombies or skeletons, as opposed to charm person.

Your character isn't as gimped as people make it out to be. You will pale in comparison to the might of a single classed cleric or wizard, but you will have oodles of spells to mess with. The lower saves on your spells due to their lower level means you're probably going to want to focus on buffing your party and using spells without saves.

You'll likely have more solutions to any given problem than a fighter, rogue, paladin, ranger, bard, or monk, but not as many as straight druid, wizard, sorc, or cleric. Mystic theurge isn't a weak choice by any means; just a suboptimal one given the real ultimate power of available alternatives.

As for your OP, I would recommend using sudden quicken to combine brutal combos. A sudden quickened enervate followed up with a save-or-die, for instance, or two rays of stupidity, or multiple layers of other no-save-lose-stats spells. Assay spell resistance + spell is good for SR you're having trouble with (which will be frequent, given your lowered caster level for both wiz & clr). Quickening buffs is always helpful (like haste), or using it to cast a true strike before a ray of clumsiness vs. a high dex target.

Alaris
2009-03-03, 12:18 PM
Well... the good news is the feat is badass. The bad news is that your character is going to be seriously lagging anyway by this point, and is going to keep lagging for another five levels or so, as it'll take MT a while to undo the damage that your split build has done - but you knew getting into it that you were going to lose out short-term in favour of long-term gain, right?

Well, my character will be lagging as far as new spells go, and higher spell levels. His caster level will be on par with the others. A house rule (Which I obviously should've mentioned earlier) gives us extra feats in certain cases, depending on the character. With these feats, my character has fixed the lag of Caster Level (Practiced Spellcaster, for the Win!)

But yes, unfortunately. I am losing out a bit in short term, and it will suck earlier on, but I intend to make up for it and still be useful to the party then (As I'll be the Wondrous Item Crafter earlier on, and use that to my advantage).


Anyway, as only1doug said, the best use is in combos or emergencies. Ray of Stupidity + Ray of Stupidity would work well for this, and is equally devastating against Wizards (who will lose the ability to cast their spells) and Barbarians (who stand serious risk of coma). Ray of Clumsiness + Web is also nasty, as the ray will reduce their chances of passing Web's save, and combined they'll put the enemy's dex into the dirt. And of course Scorching Ray + Scorching Ray (or any other direct damage spells) will benefit a lot from this. On the other side, quickening a buff and then making a full attack, or double-buffing an ally on the first round (Enlarge Person + Bull's Strength on the fighter, or Reduce Person + Cat's Grace on the rogue) will win you a lot of friends. Mix and match to taste.

I see, I see.... that should be very useful. One moment...


Your character isn't as gimped as people make it out to be. You will pale in comparison to the might of a single classed cleric or wizard, but you will have oodles of spells to mess with. The lower saves on your spells due to their lower level means you're probably going to want to focus on buffing your party and using spells without saves.

You'll likely have more solutions to any given problem than a fighter, rogue, paladin, ranger, bard, or monk, but not as many as straight druid, wizard, sorc, or cleric. Mystic theurge isn't a weak choice by any means; just a suboptimal one given the real ultimate power of available alternatives.

As for your OP, I would recommend using sudden quicken to combine brutal combos. A sudden quickened enervate followed up with a save-or-die, for instance, or two rays of stupidity, or multiple layers of other no-save-lose-stats spells. Assay spell resistance + spell is good for SR you're having trouble with (which will be frequent, given your lowered caster level for both wiz & clr). Quickening buffs is always helpful (like haste), or using it to cast a true strike before a ray of clumsiness vs. a high dex target.

Yeah, my character has some serious flaws in it, and I see them. I'm not a min-maxer, and I'm not trying to make the "best character ever" for a situation. I am just making a character that I think will be both fun, and one that will succeed at what I'm doing.

If I wanted to MinMax the build, I could do as my DM once suggested, and multiclass into 4 different things and end up as a Lyrist... but I think it's overcomplicated, and makes things less fun.

I know of only a few Theurgic classes that provide full spell progression and no real loss. If you know of any besides Lyrist and Mystic Theurge, then by all means, give me suggestions.

I will, however, thank you for your suggestions on spells and combos. I am not very well versed in being a spellcaster, so I am sad to say that I had only thought of about one or two combos before I posted this thread. Thanks again!

Flickerdart
2009-03-03, 06:18 PM
Fochlucan Lyrist sucks. You lose caster levels to enter (since you need a Rogue or Monk dip for Evasion) and get too little in return.

Mystic Theurge can work well with builds that progress Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord accelerated casting. Some DMs will allow entry into MT using Precocious Apprentice to get that 2nd level spell, which breaks it oh-so-much.

Keld Denar
2009-03-03, 07:06 PM
At your low level, the only things I can think of would be Ray of Clumsiness + Grease and Ray of Enfeeblement + Web. In a couple levels, you'll be able to do Ray of Clumsiness + Bands of Steel which will pretty much 1shot anyone you really want to take out. CDG at your leasure. Also, Ray of Enfeeblement + Escalating Enfeeblement would be pretty killer. A giant with a 1 Str isn't a very scary foe, and there is no save against this. Tack on a Ray of Exhaustion and you've effectively neutered anything that doesn't cast spells to do damage because it'll probably be over its heavy load limit with just its weapon in hand, not to mention armor. Ray of Exhaustion + Ray of Exhaustion could also be useful, since if the first one saves, you just fire the 2nd one quickened and regardless of save, your foe is exhausted. Thats pretty awesome.

Alaris
2009-03-03, 07:27 PM
Fochlucan Lyrist sucks. You lose caster levels to enter (since you need a Rogue or Monk dip for Evasion) and get too little in return.

Mystic Theurge can work well with builds that progress Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord accelerated casting. Some DMs will allow entry into MT using Precocious Apprentice to get that 2nd level spell, which breaks it oh-so-much.

Well yes, but apperently there was some upside because of the way he built his characters, and he wanted me to do the same if I wanted to do a Theurgic thing. His campaign tends to have a lot of characters who dip into Monk or Rogue anyway.

Yeah, I talked to my DM about the Precocious apprentice thing, as I was going to SO abuse that...but alas, he read an errata which says that you can't actually do that, since technically, Precocious Apprentice counts as "Reaching for that 2nd level spell, and not always fully casting it, and thus does not allow you to use it to qualify for prestige classes or feats."


At your low level, the only things I can think of would be Ray of Clumsiness + Grease and Ray of Enfeeblement + Web. In a couple levels, you'll be able to do Ray of Clumsiness + Bands of Steel which will pretty much 1shot anyone you really want to take out. CDG at your leasure. Also, Ray of Enfeeblement + Escalating Enfeeblement would be pretty killer. A giant with a 1 Str isn't a very scary foe, and there is no save against this. Tack on a Ray of Exhaustion and you've effectively neutered anything that doesn't cast spells to do damage because it'll probably be over its heavy load limit with just its weapon in hand, not to mention armor. Ray of Exhaustion + Ray of Exhaustion could also be useful, since if the first one saves, you just fire the 2nd one quickened and regardless of save, your foe is exhausted. Thats pretty awesome.

Yeah, at low level, it's kind of difficult to find good combos (Though Touch Attacks W/ No Save tend to be awesome in combination with things like True Strike... assuming I have a bad baseattack/stat.

Two Rays of Exhaustion is pretty meh. That's two 3rd level spells to temporarily reduce their Strength and Dexterity by 6 for one hour. I could think of a few more uses.

What exactly is Escalating Enfeeblement? I've never heard of such a spell, to be honest. And for that matter, what is Bands of Steel too? Sorry if I seem like a total newbie in regards to spells, but, like I said, I've only played one other Wizard. And my reflex with that wizard, whenever I was that much danger, was FIREBALL!

Thanks your suggestions, and if there is anyone else willing to suggest for later on (Like when I have 3rd/4th level spells, or even higher level spells...), then by all means. I'll take anything.

Keld Denar
2009-03-03, 07:55 PM
Hmmmm, you need a slight "re-education" in your thoughts on Wizard spells. Check out The Logic Ninja's guide to Being Batman, and after reading that, google "Character Optimization" and search those forums for Treantmonk20's guide to being GOD. These will enlighten you to the fact that while Fireball is fun, there are more effective things to do with your spells that'll make your enemies rue this day, and rue it HARD.

Exhaustion also carries with it a psudo slow effect. Your opponent gets only a move or a standard action which means no full attacking, and if you have particularly spry allies, means you can effectively "kite" your foe around to the point where he won't be able to hurt anyone. Great against big single bruisers like giants.

Escalating Enfeeblement is Complete Mage, is Wiz2, and when used against a target that is fatigued, exhausted, or subject to a Str, Dex, or Con penalty, imposes a str penalty of 1d10+ 1/2 CLs. So...slightly more enfeeblement. On second though, EE probably would be best following a Ray of Exhaustion rather than a Ray of Enfeeblement, because the penalties explicitly don't stack with RoE.

Bands of Steel is in the PHB or SpC. Forget which, but its basically a Reflex based Hold Person. You cast Ray of Clumisness to lower your foe's Dex, thus lowering his Reflex save, then hit him with Bands of Steel. This effectively increases the DC by 1-6 points, depending on your level and how good you roll.

Myrmex
2009-03-03, 07:58 PM
-6 str & -6 dex isn't insignificant. Combined with another penalty- bestow curse, ray of clumsiness, ray of enfeeblment, you can take down just about anything with a str or dex score below 13, without any saves involved.

NEO|Phyte
2009-03-03, 08:00 PM
Exhaustion also carries with it a psudo slow effect. Your opponent gets only a move or a standard action which means no full attacking, and if you have particularly spry allies, means you can effectively "kite" your foe around to the point where he won't be able to hurt anyone. Great against big single bruisers like giants.

Where are you getting this only a move/standard thing from (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted)?

Keld Denar
2009-03-03, 08:11 PM
Bah, thrice cursed memory. I remembered the 1/2 movement and I guess I just associated that with the 1/2 action. That'll teach me not to look things up.

Regardless, Ray of Exhaustion + Escalating Enfeeblement is a pretty killer combo. If you can get a Lesser MM Rod of Empower for your Escalating Enfeeblement, you you impose up to a -22 str penalty with EE on top of the -2 or -6 from Ray of Exhaustion. That takes a freakin Frost Giant from Str 29 to Str 5, assuming it makes the save against RoE easily, or to Str 1 assuming a botched roll.

Myrmex
2009-03-03, 08:20 PM
Turning off the ability to run or charge with fatigue is really useful, too. It means fighters in fullplate can't do anything but move 20 feet and attack, which means you can stay out of range the whole time.