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shadow_archmagi
2009-03-02, 06:50 PM
I really just can't think/decide on a build/character concept. Here's the important facts.

1. There will only be one other party member.
2. Said party member almost invariably plays some sort of melee-damage type character like a fighter or a warblade or a paladin.
3. Roleplay wise, said party member tends to start off as a generic paladin and degrade into, for lack of a better word, belkar.
4. Level will be around 10.
5. Cheese is banned, but just about anything from any sourcebook is OK.

EDIT: 3.5e

Swooper
2009-03-02, 07:08 PM
I'm not going to tell you what to roleplay, so I'll throw some build ideas at you. Maybe one of them gives you an idea you can work with.

Wizard 10//Cleric(or Druid) 3/Geomancer 7 - Take that, Mystic Theurge! This is an insane combo. Really.

Swordsage//Druid - Be a bear... that uses manoeuvres!

Swordsage//Psychic Warrior - The perfect swordsman?

Wizard (or Psion or Archivist)//Factotum - For the awesome int synergy. If you go Archivist, grab Knowledge Devotion and the Collector of Stories skill trick to go with Dark Knowledge.

Cleric//Ardent - Very thematically appropriate if you pick a cool deity to go with it.

RTGoodman
2009-03-02, 07:15 PM
Wizard (or Psion or Archivist)//Factotum - For the awesome int synergy. If you go Archivist, grab Knowledge Devotion and the Collector of Stories skill trick to go with Dark Knowledge.

I'd go with that one. You can cover the buffing/healing/support role well with your Archivist spells, Factotum SLAs, and Dark Knowledge, while also covering the control/Batman role via Archivist spells (anyspell, domain spells, etc.) and the skill-monkey role via Factotum.

Knaight
2009-03-02, 07:16 PM
Warlock/Binder

Basically you are playing a man with a deep connection to spirits. He has several spirits working for him, on several shifts, since he doesn't feel that 24/7 work is right, as it denies spirits their free time. However, some of the spirit magic has rubbed off on him, and he is able to use the basics by himself. Eldritch blast, blast shape and non-blast invocations are his magic. Gets along really well with ghosts and such. Everything else uses spirits. In combat he is constantly calling on spirits to help him, even with warlock attacks.
For example.
Utterdark Blast- "Iel, I know you hate killing people, but this guy brought this on himself."

Or:
Sickening Blast-"Kya, help me out here."
Two rounds later, things have gone south.
Alright, I hate to do this. "Rin, Phe, go grab Iel, tell her I'll make it up to her, and I know she's off shift."

Its not optimized, but its a fun concept.

Draz74
2009-03-02, 07:17 PM
Hmmm, wow. So the problem is that, if he's just filling the meatshield role, you'll need to be the skill monkey, and the healer, and the battlefield controller. So ...

Factotum//Archivist is probably about the most uber you can get.

Bard/Sublime Chord//Rogue/Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw is fun and well-rounded, but MAD and will end up often being another melee combatant.

Druid//Rogue/Swordsage or Druid//Ninja is a safe path, since both involve, well, the Druid, plus skillmonkeying.

Dragonfire Adept//Incarnate would be awesomely SAD and extremely flexible, but not exactly impressive as far as healing is concerned.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-03-02, 07:45 PM
The other player will need some kind of support, such as skills and spellcasting. I'd probably make one side Bard 9/ Spellthief 1 with Master Spellthief, intent on ending with Sublime Chord and then some full spellcasting prestige class, such as Divine Oracle. If you go that route be sure to say you've visited the Frog God's Fane (and pay the 2000 gp) to get the prerequisite Skill Focus without spending a feat on it. Start out as a Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic, get Dragonfire Inspiration and Song of the Heart (ECS) along with a few Badge of Valor (MIC) and get the spell Inspirational Boost (SC). Be warned, Sublime Chord with Master Spellthief can make some extremely high caster levels.

On the other side of your build you should probably have some sort of Cha synergy. I'd probably take Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) for at least two levels, and remember it won't be possible to fit more than four before taking Sublime Chord. Remember that Dragonfire Inspiration adds to both melee and ranged attacks, so some sort of archery build could be just as good as melee. Maybe use a Fighter Archer build dipping Arcane Duelist 2, just be sure to get an Elvencraft bow (RotW) and designate the melee portion of it as your chosen weapon. A TWF Warblade build with four Arcane Duelist levels would also be a superb choice, get the Mongoose maneuvers and be sure to take Song of the White Raven to keep your Inspire Courage bonus up. Use a double weapon so both ends would get an additional +2 to their enhancement bonus. Take the feat Battle Caster (CA) to wear mithral full plate without risking arcane spell failure in either case.

Thorin
2009-03-02, 08:05 PM
I´ve made a flavorful one!

ITs a good char and more important: it can be roleplayed to death!!!!



Human Melee wildshaper/divine caster

HD 12+4d12+5d8+10d8+bon con*20
BAB +20 1+1+1+1+1 +1+1+1+1+1 +1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1
Ref +12 0+0+1+0+0 +1+1+0+1+0 +2+1+0+1+1+1+0+1+0+1
For +17 2+1+0+1+0 +2+1+1+1+1 +2+1+0+1+0+1+0+1+0+1
Will +14 2+1+0+1+0 +1+1+1+0+1 +0+1+1+1+0+1+0+0+1+1


druid 5 // lion spirit barbarian 5 (complete champion 46)
druid 5 // warshaper (complete warrior,90)
druid 10// master of many forms (complete adventurer,59)

all druid lvl 20 advantages
animal companion (druid lvl 20)
druid spells (druid lvl 20)
wildshape

barbarian rage, pounce, uncanny dodge

immune to criticals
+4 to str, +4 to con
+5ft reach
2 fast healing
can freely change forms during wildshape
wide range of forms and sizes

You are the Nature´s Avatar, and lots of your class features still function in the deadly antimagic field

avr
2009-03-02, 08:36 PM
If you want to do everything, Psion // Rogue works. The INT synergy is implicit rather than explicit, but it's there. Psion/Elocator // Rogue focuses on the rogue side more, though you may want to take the levels where you would otherwise lose a manifester level as Psion // Elocator instead.

Jack_Simth
2009-03-02, 09:05 PM
I really just can't think/decide on a build/character concept. Here's the important facts.

1. There will only be one other party member.
2. Said party member almost invariably plays some sort of melee-damage type character like a fighter or a warblade or a paladin.
3. Roleplay wise, said party member tends to start off as a generic paladin and degrade into, for lack of a better word, belkar.
4. Level will be around 10.
5. Cheese is banned, but just about anything from any sourcebook is OK.

EDIT: 3.5e
So... you're pretty certain your only support will be a meatshield? Okay, we can do this.

Druid-10//Wizard-10

Feat's you'll need:
1) Heighten Spell (Core)
2) Arcane Preparation (Complete Arcane)
3) Elemental Summoning (Complete Mage)
4) One of: Acidic Splatter, Fiery Burst, Invisible Needle (recommendation is for Acidic Splatter due to the lack of damage division vs. objects; all of these from Complete Mage).
5) Minor Shapeshift (Complete Mage)

Items you'll want:
1) Ring of Enduring Arcana
2) Third Eye Sense (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
3) Ring of Invisibility
4) Portable Hole

Spells to cast:
1) Detect Magic (or Arcane Sight, but you'll need to boost your caster level by one to permanency it - but then, an Orange Prism Ioun Stone isn't a bad idea anyway)
2) Permanency (Detect Magic/Arcane Sight) (from a scroll if need be)

Stats:
You want *just* enough Wisdom to cast your highest-level spells; the rest goes into Intelligence and Constitution. A Wisdom of 13, with an item to boost, is the minimum.

Basic Methods:
Anti-Trapping (covers all pre-statted DMG traps):
1) Check for magic ahead of you. If you see it, and it's not something you can put in your portable hole without touching for later identification, destroy it.
2) If there's no magic, send one of each type of elemental along your intended path (they vanish at the end of your turn if they're more than 30 feet from you - as they can Hustle or even Run, that actually gives you a surprising distance to play with)
3a) If nothing happens to any of the four elementals, proceed a distance forward (exact distance dependent on how paranoid you want to be - anywhere from a five-foot step to the maximum of your "cleared" range).
3b) If something happens to any of the four elementals, use your direct-damage reserve feat to destroy whatever hurt the elemental, then goto 2.

Stealthy scouting:
Use Third-Eye Sense. Go look it up - it's crazy-useful for this stuff.

Stealthy scouting in anti-scrying areas:
Have your familiar do it. Pick a familiar that has the best combination of Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen. Using the Improved Familiar feat for an Imp isn't out of place.

Healing:
Cast a Cure spell or three. Or better, one of the Vigor line (Spell Compendium).

Sense-bot:
Druid gives you access to Listen/Spot. Take max ranks in them.

Combat Control:
You're a full Wizard; you do the math. For your Druid spells, stock up on ones that don't offer saves (buffs, Cures).

Staying out of melee:
You'll probably want a Dire Bat familiar, and you'll probably want to play a Small race. Use Reduce Animal (possibly Extended) on the Bat, and you've got very long-duration Fly 40 (Good) that you can use indoors to stay out of most trouble.

shadow_archmagi
2009-03-03, 03:45 PM
Great ideas everyone! Thank you so much.

Could Swordsage/Cleric do anything?

Draz74
2009-03-03, 04:07 PM
Cleric and Swordsage are both strong classes, and they use somewhat similar ability scores, and their numbers don't overlap too much (e.g. they cover each other's bad saves). So of course it's not a terrible build.

But it's not the most synergistic either. Most of the time you'll have to choose being using your Cleric abilities and using your Swordsage abilities, since both require all of your standard actions in combat. Other Gestalt arrangements, by contrast, let you use abilities from both classes simultaneously. What's more, there are some overlapping numbers: neither manages to improve on the other's Medium BAB or d8 Hit Die.

Going mostly for DMM:Persist buffs with your Cleric side will get rid of the action-economy conflict. It will leave you with a feat-starved but SCARY EFFECTIVE melee combatant. But with your partner already being a melee type, I would assume that your Cleric side will be more focused on healing, buffing, control spells, and utility magic, which leaves you with the action economy conflict again.

ravenkith
2009-03-03, 04:55 PM
Gestalt, right?

Well, it depends how open your DM is about the rules. Ask if he'll allow you to take 4 levels of Eldritch Disciple.

If he says yes, well....Mmmm I smell some abuse coming on. :)

SILVERBROW HUMAN

Stats (In order of Importance):
CHA High as possible, Primary caster stat.
DEX 14 Preferred
WIS (minimum 13)
INT (+1 or +2)
CON (0 or +1)
STR (DUMP IT)

1: Monk 1//Rogue 1 (Spell Sense - CMAG)
2: Monk 2//Sorceror (Metamagic Specialist - PHB II) 1
3: Monk 3//Sorceror 2
4: Monk 4//Sorceror 3
5: Paladin (Of Freedom) 1//Sorceror 4
6: Paladin 2// Spellsword 1
7: Ninja 1//Abjurant Champion 1
8: Ninja 2//Spellwarp Sniper 1
9: Rogue 2 (Spell Reflection - CMAG)//Spellwarp Sniper 2
10: Rogue 3//Spellwarp Sniper 3
11: Cleric 1//Spellwarp Sniper 4
12: Cleric 2//Spellwarp Sniper 5
13: Cleric 3//Abjurant Champion 2
14: Warlock 1//Abjurant Champion 3
15: Eldritch Disciple 1//Sorceror 6
16: Warlock 2//Abjurant Champion 4
17: Warlock 3//Abjurant Champion 5
18: Eldritch Disciple 2//Sorceror 7
19: Eldritch Disciple 3//Sorceror 8
20: Eldritch Disciple 4//Sorceror 9

Feats:
1st: Reach Spell H: Point Blank Shot FLAW: Combat Casting/Vulnerable
3rd: Ascetic Rogue
6th: Ascetic Mage
9th: Ascetic Stalker
12th: Split Ray
15th Arcane Thesis (Vitriolic Sphere)
18th: Maximize Spell

Ok! First things first:

Paladin: Familiarity with all (non-exotic) weapons and armor. CHA to saves. 1/1 BAB, d10 HD.

Rogue: Massive skills to start. Sneak Attack Dice.

Monk: Wis to AC. With Ascetic Mage, becomes Charisma to AC. Never considered unarmed. Great Saves. 3/4 BAB. d8 HD. Skills. With Ascetic Rogue, generates a total of 4d6 SA.

Sorceror: CHA based spellcasting.

Spellsword: 1/1 bab, advances spellcasting.

Ninja: Skills. 3/4 BAB. GHOST STEP. With Ascetic Stalker, becomes 3/day min. Also: sudden strike 1d6.

Abjurant Champion: Swift abjurations. Benefits to shield spells, etc. 1/1 bab, d10 HD.

Spellwarp Sniper: This class + Vitriolic sphere + Max ROD + Split ray = Win.

Cleric: Yes, well, 3/4 bab, d8 HD, Divine Spells. <shrug> Mainly just here for Eldritch disciple.

Warlock: Yes, RTAs at will sure is nice. :) Not only that, but can buy us entry into ED. Also: Invocations.

Eldritch Disciple: WTF were they thinking? By the way, your at will damage dealing blast, just got the option to healing living critters instead.

Alright, let's sum it up.
+ Cast as a 19th level Sorceror (9th level Spells)
+ CHA to Saves
+ CHA to AC
+ Swift abjurations (+9 to AC as a swift action from a 1st level Shield Spell)
+ Ghost Step 3/day
+ 2d6 Sudden Raystrike + 1d6 Sudden Strike + 4d6 Sneak Attack (+7d6 total)
+ Invocations as a 7th level Warlock (4d6 EB, 4 invocations 3 least, 1 lesser)
+ Cast as a 6th level Cleric (3rd level Spells)
+ Ability to turn your EB into a healing blast (Add nightsticks for more fun)
+ 17 BAB

SPELLS OF NOTE:
Sniper's Shot (SpC)
Shivering Touch, Lesser (Frostburn)
Vitriolic Sphere (SpC)
Assay Resistance (SpC)
Greater Invisibility (PHB)

shadow_archmagi
2009-03-03, 07:15 PM
but it's a 10th level game and that build doesn't gain full power until 20.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever had one of our games reach 20.

ravenkith
2009-03-03, 08:08 PM
but it's a 10th level game and that build doesn't gain full power until 20.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever had one of our games reach 20.

Geez.

The build actually gets 'full power' at 12th, and continues to get better and better as you approach 20.

Why do I say this?

In part, because of the interaction between level 5 spellwarp sniper and the 5th level spell 'Vitriolic Sphere'.

The spell deals 18d6 damage over three rounds. Normally it's an AOE, with the associated reflex save, but with SS, you can turn it into a ray. (This costs nothing in terms of spell levels).

The spell DOES NOT ALLOW SPELL RESISTANCE. As a fifth level spell, 18d6 is pretty chunky - it's effectively a disintegrate, without the save and without spell resistance, for a spell level lower.

Once you have the spell slots (level 15), you can split this ray and, as a 7th level spell (one higher than disintegrate), inflict 36d6 that ignores sr and has no associated save! On top of that, you get to add your sneak dice! (Use sniper's shot & greater invisibility).

The other part of what makes me say this build is at 'full power' by level ten is the fact that you have most of your major needs met before you even start the game:
+ Good saves
+ Good HD
+ Good AC
+ Healing capacity (limited - ability to use cure wands/lay on hands)
+ 5d6 SA
+ +8 or +9 BAB
+ Sorceror spell casting

What more do you want at level freaking 10? :P

PS - don't forget, as a pally, your buddy will ALSO have his own healing capabilities, so limited is all you really need until the late game.

Everyman
2009-03-03, 08:21 PM
Time to bring out an old character idea of mine: Aimes McWile, tricksy old man! The build is simple, and you should feel free to expand where you like. First, it starts off with a mixture of rogue and wizard/wizard PrC levels. The original Aimes was a charismatic character that would feign weakness or senality in order to lure enemies into traps or to scame people. He was about 60 years old and had a sharp wit, and let people draw their own conclusions about him based on his act.

Male Human
Age: Old category
Class: Rogue 10 // Wizard 10 (trade out wizard levels for a PrC if you like)
Stats (order of importance): Int, Dex, Con, Wis, Cha, Str
Key Skills: Bluff (so very, very important), Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Spot, Listen, Open Lock/Disable Device, Tumble, Hide
Feats: Combat Panache (PHB II), Metamagic that suits your spell choices (paticularly touch spells, so you can add Sneak Attack), Spell Focus (Illusion)

Tactics in Combat
* Use Combat Panache to lure enemies into lowering their guard, then strike
* Bluff and sweet-talk your way through battles (Diplomancer for the win)
* Use illusions to convince the enemy they are out-numbered.
* Sneak attack with spells (I like scorching ray and the orb spells, personally)
* If all else fails, pretend to be a silly old cout and confuse the ever-loving hells out of enemies, as they wonder why they can't kill you.

Typical Actions out of Combat (and sometimes in)
* Talk about your grandchildren (to agonizing detail)
* Wonder (out loud) whether your just soiled yourself. Try and limit this to situations where you want some elbow room.
* Thank every tavern wench by saying they remind you of your granddaughter (you have no granddaughter)
* Talk about how much you love hard candy (to agonizing detail)
* Complain about how people don't respect their elders.
* Steal stuff in a not-so-subtle ways, then guilt trip the shop owners with the sad tale of your life. Have your partner use this as impromptu stealing/distraction time
* Never ever talk like a sane person unless you are trying to scare the living beejeezus outta them

Alterations
* The luck feats from Complete Scoundrel (as well as Fortune's Friend)
* Add in some luck-based magic instead
* Make yourself even older and more senile. ("Did that old man just leap 50ft into the air, declare he likes lollipops, and project firey doom on our allies?)

Not an optimized build, but loads of fun.

ravenkith
2009-03-04, 11:42 AM
Alright, you didn't like my first attempt, so I've decided to post a revised framework.

SILVERBROW HUMAN

Stats (In order of Importance):
CHA High as possible, Primary caster stat.
DEX 14 Preferred
WIS (minimum 13)
INT (+1 or +2)
CON (0 or +1)
STR (DUMP IT)

1: Monk 1//Rogue 1 (Spell Sense - CMAG)
2: Monk 2//Sorceror (Metamagic Specialist - PHB II) 1
3: Monk 3//Sorceror 2
4: Monk 4//Sorceror 3
5: Paladin (Of Freedom) 1//Sorceror 4
6: Paladin 2// Spellsword 1
7: Paladin 3//Abjurant Champion 1
8: Cleric 1//Spellwarp Sniper 1
9: Cleric 2//Spellwarp Sniper 2
10: Cleric 3//Spellwarp Sniper 3
11: Cleric 4//Spellwarp Sniper 4
12: Rogue 2 (Spell Reflection - CMAG)//Spellwarp Sniper 5
13: Rogue 3//Abjurant Champion 2
14: Warlock 1//Abjurant Champion 3
15: Eldritch Disciple 1//Sorceror 6
16: Warlock 2//Abjurant Champion 4
17: Warlock 3//Abjurant Champion 5
18: Eldritch Disciple 2//Sorceror 7
19: Eldritch Disciple 3//Sorceror 8
20: Eldritch Disciple 4//Sorceror 9

Feats:
1st: Reach Spell H: Point Blank Shot FLAW: Combat Casting/Vulnerable FLAW: Energy Substitution: Cold/Non-combatant (-2 in melee)
3rd: Ascetic Rogue
6th: Ascetic Mage
9th: Split Ray
12th: Arcane Thesis (Vitriolic Sphere)
15th Energy Admixture: Cold
18th: Maximize Spell

AT 10th: (not fractional, Ref will definitely benefit if fractional allowed)
+ BAB: 9
+ FORT 12 + CHA
+ REF 6 + CHA
+ WILL 13 +CHA
+ Casting as 9th level Sorceror
+ Casting as 3rd level cleric
+ 3d6 Sneak + 1d6 Sudden Raystrike
+ CHA + 1 to AC, +1 vs. Spells
+ Monk class features (including Evasion)
+ Paladin class features (including +CHA to saves, immunities, LoH)
+ 7d8 + 3d10 HD

With this build, everything beyond 12 is icing on the cake.

Enjoy.

dspeyer
2009-03-05, 02:40 AM
If your companion is pure melee, you need to be everything else. Tricky but doable. How about a beguiler//druid?

The spell lists complement pretty well. Take arcane disciple(travel) for fly and teleport. You can use either Flarghan (roads) or Geshtai (bodies of water) as the deity. Geshtai may make more sense, but Flarghan allows you to take arcane disciple(luck) at 18th level for miracle. Take spontaneous healer so that you can be the primary source of healing without stomping all over your preparations.

For skills, you get 6+int with high int and almost every skill as class. Then you can add racial and size bonuses with wildshape.

Oddly, there's little reason to take a prestige class here. A one-level dip in master of many forms might be useful so you can speak freely in wildshape and disguise yourself perfectly, but it's questionable if this is worth a casting level (at even ECLs it is). On the other side, while there are lots of nice arcane prcs (everyone loves incantrix), they mean giving up skills, advanced learning and sometimes-useful class features. It's also tempting to dip a level in ninja or monk for the ac, but that can probably be matched with equipment.

dspeyer
2009-03-05, 02:42 AM
ravenkith: Isn't eldritch disciple dual-progression? RAW doesn't allow that in gestalt, and I doubt many DMs would either.

ravenkith
2009-03-05, 11:50 AM
ravenkith: Isn't eldritch disciple dual-progression? RAW doesn't allow that in gestalt, and I doubt many DMs would either.

Actually the UA book simply recommends that certain classes be disallowed, but leaves it up to the DM: which is why I said he'd have to ask for permission to use four (just four, not the whole ten or anything) levels of Eldritch Disciple in my first post in this thread.

The reason his DM might allow it is because there will only be two players in their upcoming game, and the other player almost inevitably plays a beatstick, according to the OP, and rarely takes any other needs into account, from what I gathered.

Sure Eldritch Disciple is nice, but as I mentioned before, pretty much everything in the build after level 12 is optional, and the main purpose of putting ED in there is to advance cleric progression, giving the group access to healing spells and other divine refinements, and generally making life easier on the DM.

Speaking from experience, It's extremely frustrating for a DM to plan a campaign in say, the underdark, or on any plane but the prime material, and have to stop to throw in a healbot every now and then where logically there wouldn't be one.

You could dump the Cleric levels from the build, and replace them with Warlock, as long as you are willing to use UMD instead (an expensive waste of your WBL, if the ED option is available).

Alternatively, replace the cleric and warlock levels with rogue, for more sneak dice (Not recommended).

Or, if you'd rather be more thematic, replace those levels with Dragonfire Adept. <shrug>

There are a ton of options, it's not really my fault if ED is the best one, and happens to require permission.

Riffington
2009-03-05, 12:31 PM
Now, are you quite sure the other player is *just* interested in meatshield? After all, it's gestalt, so it should be easy to convince him to add something.

Like Fighter/Rogue does insane combat damage, so it shouldn't be a hard sell. Or Crusader/Cleric would give him all the Paladin and whumping flavor he'd want, plus a bit extra on the side

Telonius
2009-03-05, 01:31 PM
Beguiler10//Artificer10

You'd get trapfinding, a decent skill selection, 6 skill points/level, one good save, the option to create more party members, the ability to give Meatshield some cheaper weaponry, the ability to create some nice wands, the Beguiler spells, and 3/4 BAB.

Skillmonkey: check
Healer: ... check, more or less
Arcane Caster: check
Face: With the amount of skill points you'll have plus basically a SAD build, check.

FinalJustice
2009-03-05, 02:01 PM
Since you've got a meatshield // damage dealer, why not the good and old Wizard/Archmage/Dweomerkeeper// Archivist? Absolute SAD and ubercasting to boot can make you a god. The class is really good even without Su Wish abuse. If you are dead set on trapfinding, Exchange Wizard for Beguiler and put Dweomercheater on the Archivist Side. This way you get insane skills, lots of casting, spontaneous arcane and prepared divine spellcasting.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-05, 02:20 PM
Bard10//Psion10 - Gives you some healing, Bard song, and as per RAW you may manifest Psionic powers while maintaining a bard song.

shadow_archmagi
2009-03-07, 06:12 AM
Shiny build

Looks good, writing it up now. Only one question: Why silverbrow human? It seems to give...

Featherfall as a SLA, which is nice, and a bonus to disguises. And it has something to do with dragons, which opens up all those classes and things.

Is there something dragonny in this build? I havn't had a chance to read up on all eighteen (EDIT: On closer inspection, it comes to eleven.) classes you used just yet.


EDIT: Also, at the "good things about this build" part at the bottom, you mention 3rd level cleric casting, even though there's four levels of cleric. Is that a typo or is there a prestige class that noms a level of cleric? Not complaining, just wondering.

EDIT2: OIC! The next level of cleric is at 11, and the benefits is for 10th level.

EDIT3: Waaait a minute. Monk.. spellsword... sorcerer... FIST OF POLYMORPH!?

BobVosh
2009-03-07, 06:26 AM
SNEAK ATTACK. Just because its fun. UMD any healing, CC stuff, etc

Fighter//Rogue
UA Fighter, instead of Feats get SA.
Rogue for all the greatness of rogue.

Level 10: 11 SA dice, 8+int skills, good fort+ref, D10s, classic build for gestalt, and your meat shield friend for a flanker. Just because it is funny.

shadow_archmagi
2009-03-07, 09:35 AM
Oh god, why did no one ever TELL me about the spell reflection feat!? This build is *amazing,* ravenkith.

Undead Prince
2009-03-07, 11:35 AM
Need character for gestalt game. Level will be around 10.. Cheese is banned, but just about anything from any sourcebook is OK. 3.5e

You might want to specify what is meant by "cheese".



AT 10th: (not fractional, Ref will definitely benefit if fractional allowed)
+ BAB: 9
+ FORT 12 + CHA
+ REF 6 + CHA
+ WILL 13 +CHA
+ Casting as 9th level Sorceror
+ Casting as 3rd level cleric
+ 3d6 Sneak + 1d6 Sudden Raystrike
+ CHA + 1 to AC, +1 vs. Spells
+ Monk class features (including Evasion)
+ Paladin class features (including +CHA to saves, immunities, LoH)
+ 7d8 + 3d10 HD


All righty then!

Gestalt, by level 10, you say?

How abouts:

WIZARD 10/CLERIC 3/GEOMANCER 6/CONTEMPLATIVE 1

Great Arcane Power multiplied by Incantatrix Cohort's Quicken/Persistent Cooperative Metamagic

Casting as 10th level Wizard + 10th level Cleric

PERSISTENT CONSUMPTIVE FIELD puts your caster level over 20 even when your character level is lower than 10 (also affects familiar)

QUICKENED RAPID REACH CHAINED GHOUL GLYPH - in 1 round, upwards of 40 creatures paralyzed in two 30ft circles, NO SAVE, NO ATTACK ROLL to speak of (hit AC 0); cost - 3 Rebuke attempts (you have 12 bare, 16 w/Nightstick), 1 Cooperative Metamagic from Incantatrix cohort (she has 11).

QUICKENED REACH CHAINED SLAY LIVING: in 1 round, upwards of 40 creatures killed in two 30ft circles upon failing Fort save; cost - 3 Rebukes + 1 Cooperative Metamagic.

REACH CHAINED CREATE UNDEAD (use scroll; caster level >16 thanks to persistent consumptive field): in 1 round, the corpses of your slain enemies are re-animated as Ju-Ju zombies, retaining all their class abilities but now your loyal undead minions. The best part is that you pay the 50 gp per HD of only the first corpse targeted; the other 20 are animated for free due to metamagic not requiring costs.

Great CoDZilla Power multiplied by Wizard spells and Incantatrix Cohort Cooperative Metamagic (Pesistent Spell)

PERSISTENT DIVINE POWER (also affects your familiar)
PERSISTENT DIVINE FAVOR (also affects your familiar)
PERSISTENT POLYMORPH (also affects your familiar); so many 10 or less HD shapes to choose from! See below for more crunch.

Polymorph Description:

Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

Material Component

An empty cocoon.

Starting from level 9, I’d suggest two variants:

Cave Troll

Large Giant
Hit Dice: 9d8+72 (112 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (–1 size, +11 natural armor, +1 Dex), touch
10, fl at-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+19
Attack: Claw +11 melee (2d6+12)*
Full Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (2d6+12)* and bite +6 melee
(1d8+7)*
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Dazing blow, improved grab, pounce,
rake, rend 4d6+13
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft., fast healing 8,
low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +4, Will +6
Abilities: Str 29, Dex 13, Con 27, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +16, Listen +6, Spot +6, Survival +4**
Feats: Alertness, Iron Will, Power Attack, Track
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: 10–14 HD (Large); 15–27 HD (Huge)


+11 natural armor, Reach (Large size), Martial Weapons proficiency (Giant type), Str 29, Dex 13, Con 27, speed 40ft.
Since you’re Large sized, get a Large Full plate and a Large Greatsword (3d6 damage). Make sure all relevant magic items may be worn both by the Large form and your normal Medium form.

Another interesting but more complicated version is casting Infernal Transformation (Cleric 4, Spell Comp.) on yourself to gain the Outsider subtype, and then Polymorph into

Erinyes

Size/Type:
Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)

Hit Dice:
9d8+45 (85 hp)

Initiative:
+5

Speed:
30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good)

Armor Class:
23 (+5 Dex, +8 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 18

Base Attack/Grapple:
+9/+14

Attack:
Longsword +14 melee (1d8+5/19-20) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +15 ranged (1d8+6/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +14 ranged (entangle)
Full Attack:
Longsword +14/+9 melee (1d8+5/19-20) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +15/+10 ranged (1d8+6/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +14 ranged (entangle)
Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:
Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil

Special Qualities:
Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing

Saves:
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +10

Abilities:
Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 20
Skills:
Concentration +17, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist +17, Hide +17, Knowledge (any two) +14, Listen +16, Move Silently +17, Search +14, Sense Motive +16, Spot +16, Survival +4 (+6 following tracks), Use Rope +5 (+7 with bindings)
Feats:
DodgeB, MobilityB, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run

Environment:
A lawful evil-aligned plane
Organization:
Solitary
Challenge Rating:
8
Treasure:
Standard, plus rope and +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus)
Alignment:
Always lawful evil
Advancement:
10-18 HD (Medium)



+8 Natural armor, 50 flight, Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Martial Weapon Prof. You don’t get the DR, or other special qualities; and you already have Fly, so if it’s dispelled, likely the Polymorph is also dispelled. The only real bonus is the Medium size, which allows you to wear all items without extra hassle.


You can chain this one, and make yourself an army of Craa'ghoran Giants (MM IV, p.60)

PERSISTENT HASTE (also affects >20 of your minions)

These 4 just cost 1 Cooperative Metamagic each (cohort has 11).

REACH CHAINED PERSISTENT DISPLACEMENT (also affects >20 of your minions)
REACH CHAINED PERSISTENT FLIGHT (also affects >20 of your minions)

These 2 cost 3 rebukes +1 Cooperative Metamagic each.

So per day you can have the above six persistent buffs, + Persistent Consumptive Field, and have enough resources left for three applications of "paralyze everything in sight with no save/no attack roll", "kill everything in sight who fails Fortitude", or "Create Undead from a pile of corpses at no cost".


And I'm not even talking about the capacity for pesisting higher-level spells like Shapechange or Moment of Prescience using scrolls... that would probably fall into the cheese category ;-) but it's nice to know that you can.

Add in MAGIC VESTMENT, SHIELD OF WARDING, GREATER MAGIC WEAPON, Shield of Faith, Stoneskin, Dragonskin & other long-duration buffs.

Without Polymorph, this gives a minimum of:

6 attacks per round at +35/+35/+28/+24/+19/+14 attack bonus;
+13 bonus to damage;
AC 46 (10 base +10 non-magic Full plate and Heavy shield, +10 Magic Vestment (armor & shield), +5 Shield of Warding (sacred), +5 Shield of Faith (deflection) +5 Dragonskin (natural enhancement) +1 Persistent Haste)
50% miss chance due to concealment;
+30 ft speed;
+20 hp, +150 hp Stoneskin;
+20 energy resistance to 1 type of energy (e.g. Fire; Dragonskin)
FLIGHT 60 ft (40ft in heavy armor)
FOR THE WHOLE DAY.

Add in Persistent Polymorph into Cave Troll, and you get:

Str 35 (29 Troll +6 Persistent Divine Power), Dex 13, Con 31 (27 Troll +4 item or spell)

6 attacks per round at +45/+45/+38/+34/+29/+24 attack bonus, with 10ft natural reach

Damage: 2d6+23 (Large Longsword), 3d6+29 (Large Greatsword)

AC 57 (10 base +11 natural +1 Dex +10 non-magic Full plate and Heavy shield, +10 Magic Vestment (armor & shield), +5 Shield of Warding (sacred), +5 Shield of Faith (deflection) +5 Dragonskin (natural enhancement) +1 Persistent Haste -1 size)
50% miss chance due to concealment (Persistent Displacement);
302 hp (9d8+72 (112; Troll) +20 (Divine Power) +20 (Bear's Endurance or item) +150 (Stoneskin))
+20 energy resistance to 1 type of energy (e.g. Fire; Dragonskin)
Speed 45ft land (Cave Troll + Geomancer), 40ft Flight (Persistent Fly)

And these buffs will be pretty hard to dispel, since they’ve been cast at caster level twice as high as your character level (i.e. cant be dispelled by anyone at your level). Feel free to add other favourite buffs which can be permanised by your Incantatrix cohort.

And don't forget that in the process your familiar will also become an awesome fighting machine - the same Cave Troll with Persistent Divine Power/Divine Favor/Displacement/other buffs as yourself.

GEOMANCER GOODNESS

Use INT for Divine Spell DCs;
Apply Divine Metamagic to Arcane spells;
Cast all your Arcane Spells in heavy armor and shield with no chance of failure;
Divine Self-Buffs also affect your familiar, with Polymorph it gives you an awesome fighting machine at your command;
Gain cool abilities (+1 Caster Level in specific terrain type, +5ft speed, +4 Diplomacy etc.);

LEADERSHIP/NECROMANCY GOODNESS

Incantatrix Cohort + Followers for enhancing your spells (Cooperative Metamagic, Cooperative Spell), aiding skill checks etc.

Undead horde at your disposal, including Ju-Ju Zombies which retain class levels.

Over 20 of your most powerful minions affected by Persistent Haste + Persistent Displacement + Persistent Fly, making them an even greater force. Feel free to also Chain Polymorph them into something like C'raghoran Giants for complete ownage.

Plus you have a killer familiar, Polymorphed into a Cave Troll like yourself, with Persistent Divine Power, Divine Favor, Fly, Displacement and Haste...

SKILL GOODNESS

Such as: Diplomacy 13 ranks +2 synergy +4 Geomancer + 5 Charisma +1 Guidance cantrip = +25 to Diplomacy checks without even using spells. That's decent Diplomancer capacity (100% convert Hostile to Indifferent, 50% to Friendly; 100% convert Indifferent to Friendly, 75% to Helpful), which can be greatly improved with a few spells.

The build (short version):

Human, Middle-Aged

STATS (32 point buy):

INT 17+1 (age) = 18 +2 (levels) = 20 by level 8, +4 spell/item = 24
WIS 15+1 (age) = 16 (enough for 6th level spells, don’t need DC’s because of Geomancer) +4 spell/item = 20
CHA 15 +1 (age) = 16 +4 spell/item = 20 (need for Rebuking, Divine Metamagic, Diplomacy and winning Charisma checks in Command Undead spell).
STR 9 -1 (age) = 8
DEX 9 -1 (age) = 8
CON 9 -1 (age) = 8


1. WIZARD [Diviner, banned Evocation] 1 / CLERIC 1 ||| Reach Spell, Divine Metamagic: Reach (Human Bonus Feat), Scribe Scroll (Wizard feat), Spell Focus: Enchantment (Domination domain), Extra Turning (Undeath Domain), Spontaneous Domain Casting [Domination]
2. WIZARD 2 / CLERIC 2
3. WIZARD 3 / CLERIC 3 Rapid Spell ||| RAPID REACH GHOUL GLYPH
4. WIZARD 4 / GEOMANCER 1
5. WIZARD 5 / GEOMANCER 2||| Chain Spell
6. WIZARD 6 / GEOMANCER 3 ||| DMM: Chain Spell ||| RAPID REACH CHAIN GHOUL GLYPH
7. WIZARD 7 / GEOMANCER 4
8. WIZARD 8 / GEOMANCER 5 ||| GET SLAYMATE
9. WIZARD 9 / GEOMANCER 6 Leadership ||| REACH CHAIN HEIGHTENED SLAY LIVING
10. WIZARD 10 / CONTEMPLATIVE 1 ||| Cooperative Spell ||| Fire Domain for commanding Efreet

Some insight into the origin of the build:



Build v. 3.3

I've been thinking how to charge up the Death-dealing potential on this gestalt necro build, and remembered this little spell:

GHOUL GLYPH (Spell Compendium)
Necromancy
Level: Hunger 2, sorcerer/
wizard 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Object touched
Duration: Permanent until
discharged
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

The faint, green glow of the glyph flares to life. A sickly green light fills the room,illuminating the paralyzed forms of its victims, and bringing with it the stench
of death.

You inscribe a glyph, approximately
1 foot across, that paralyzes any
living creature of Large or smaller size
that comes within 5 feet of the glyph.
You can scribe the glyph to be visible as
faintly glowing lines, or invisible. You
can inscribe a ghoul glyph on a portable
object, but if the object is moved more
than 5 feet, the glyph fades.
Conditions for triggering a ghoul
glyph are stringent. It takes effect on
any creature except yourself that moves
within 5 feet. It affects invisible creatures
normally but is not triggered by
those that travel past it ethereally. Only
a single ghoul glyph can be inscribed in
a 5-foot square.

Ghoul glyphs cannot be affected or
bypassed by such means as physical or magical probing, though they can be dispelled. Mislead and nondetection can fool a ghoul glyph.

Read magic allows identification of
a ghoul glyph with a successful DC 13
Spellcraft check, if the glyph is noticed
before it is activated. A rogue can use
the Search skill to find a ghoul glyph and
Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in
each case is 27.

When a glyph is activated, the target is
paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds. Additionally,
if the target fails a Fortitude save,
the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion
stench that causes distress in all creatures
within a 10-foot radius. Those in
the radius, including the target, must
make a Fortitude save or take a –2
penalty on attack rolls, weapon damage
rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and
ability checks until the paralysis effect
wears off.


As you can see, Ghoul Glyph is an excellent spell. No-save paralysis to anyone within 5 ft. A particularly cool feature is that it works equally well on Invisible or Concealed creatures (which you cannot normally target with spells). It’s a good start, but could do with some improvement.

Since it’s a touch spell, it qualifies for Metamagic: Reach, giving it a range of 30 ft via ranged touch attack. I.e. you make a ranged touch attack against an object no less than 1ft in size which is within 5 ft of your real target. Anything that’s not a “creature” can be an “object” – see their descriptions in DMG, p.149 (e.g. “broad side of a barn” is an object, so are walls and, presumably, floors and other surfaces). So you basically need to hit a 5-ft square of stonework, earth or whatever, that’s adjacent to the creature. 5-ft size means it’s a Medium object, and has an AC of 0 (size and armor class of objects, DMG 165). That’s right, 0 AC. Even a first level Commoner would always hit on such an attack, barring a roll of 1. Basically, we have negated the attack roll altogether.

We have one more hurdle to overcome. Ghoul Glyph’s casting time is 1 minute, which is too long to be of practical use in a fight. Quicken Spell only works on spells with casting time no longer than 1 round. So we take Rapid Spell, which shortens 1-minute durations to 1 round, and costs only +1 level. Soon we’ll get ourselves a Slaymate, whose Pale aura will reduce the costs of applying each of those and following metamagic feats by 1, up to a minimum of 0.

Now let’s order our Incantatrix cohort to Quicken the deal, to get TWO targets paralysed in a single round (no save, no attack roll to speak of).

Not bad. But not outstanding. It needs an extra touch of awesome. And we have just the thing.

Chain Spell. Since Ghoul Glyph has a single target, and (with Reach) a range other than Touch, it can now be Chained (see http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080520a). 1 new target per level, in a 30ft area. With your Permanent Consumptive Field up, that’s more than 20 creatures paralysed, with no save, no attack roll to speak of, and in a single round.

Still not enough? Remember, we have the Incantatrix cohort. With her Quicken, you can paralyze more than 40 creatures in two 30ft circles. In a single round. With no save/attack roll. And can do it again in the next round.

Now order your undead minions to get busy coup-de-gracing. Scythes work especially well, what with their x4 critical damage. And there’s something charming in the sight of a horde of scythe-armed undead mercilessly putting to death dozens of helpless creatures a round.

If you see someone interesting among the paralyzed, a mage perhaps, Dominate him. Can’t have too many slaves with class levels.

This tactic is not universal, of course. Ghoul glyph only affects living creatures of Large size or smaller. Versus undead, you already have Rebuke and Command (Chainable, at the cost of -4 to DC). Vs. constructs, use Disintegrate (Caster Level 20 thanks to Consumptive Field), Heightened and Maximised by your Red Wizard circle magic (240 damage). Vs. huge living creatures, use a Reach Chained Maximised Shivering Touch to paralyze them by dropping their DEX to 0 with no save.

Once you reach character level 9, you’ll be able to cast Reach Chained Heightened (Red Wizard circle power) Slay Living. A.k.a. Wail of the Banshee.

But wait, there’s more. There's CoDZilla to be made.

First, however, the Build v.3.3 itself:

1. WIZARD 1 / CLERIC 1 ||| Reach Spell, Divine Metamagic: Reach (Human Bonus Feat), Scribe Scroll (Wizard feat), Spell Focus: Enchantment (Domination domain), Extra Turning (Undeath Domain), Spontaneous Domain Casting [Domination]
2. WIZARD 2 / CLERIC 2
3. WIZARD 3 / CLERIC 3 ||| Rapid Spell ||| RAPID REACH GHOUL GLYPH
4. WIZARD 4 / GEOMANCER 1
5. WIZARD 5 / GEOMANCER 2| Retrain Rapid Spell into Tattoo Focus, get Rapid Spell back as Wizard Bonus Feat
6. RED WIZARD 1 / GEOMANCER 3 Chain Spell ||| RAPID REACH CHAIN GHOUL GLYPH
7. RED WIZARD 2 / GEOMANCER 4 |
8. RED WIZARD 3 / GEOMANCER 5 ||| GET SLAYMATE
9. RED WIZARD 4 / GEOMANCER 6 Leadership
10. RED WIZARD 5 / GEOMANCER 7 | Retrain Rapid Spell into DMM: Chain Spell; get Rapid Spell back as Red Wizard bonus feat ||| REACH CHAIN HEIGHTENED SLAY LIVING
11. MINDBENDER 1 (Telepathy) / CONTEMPLATIVE 1 (Fire Domain) OR PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 1 (See through the Veil)

How to get a Slaymate

SLAYMATE (Libris Mortis): 4HD Undead, Will save +5;
has Pale Aura that reduces metamagic cost for Necromancy spells by 1 in 10ft radius (to a minimum of 0).

HOW TO GET:
1. KNOWLEDGE (religion) check vs. DC 14 to show DM you know about this creature (see PHB, p.78 on identifying monsters)

2. SCRYING
a. 4th level Wizard spell (or scroll for 700 gp)
b. Cleric focus (under Geomancer rules) costs only 100 gp
c. +5 to subject saves due to secondhand knowledge, to a total +10 Will vs. your DC (10 +4 +6) = 20. I.e., may require 2-3 castings to succeed.

3. TELEPORT
a. If within appr. 2000 miles, do it yourself
b. If farther, need to purchase scroll of Greater Teleport (2,275 gp), get +5 CL from Consumption Field, and activate scroll

4. COMMAND UNDEAD (spell, or Rebuke/Command – will work at lvl 8)

Congratulations, you’ve got yourself and all allies in 10ft radius a -1 discount on Necromancy metamagic feats.


COHORT & FOLLOWERS

By level 10, due to your high Charisma and having a base of operations, you have a Leadership score of 17, which nets you a level 8 Cohort and many Followers (30 1st level, 3 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th).

COHORT:

Gray Elf, Wizard, Diviner, Middle-Aged
STR 9 -1 (age) -2 (race) = 6
DEX 13 -1 (age) +2 (race) = 14
CON 15 -1 (age) -2 (race) = 12
WIS 8 +1 (age) = 9
INT 17 +2 (race) +1 (age) +2 (stat increases) +4 (item or spell) = 26
CHA 15 +1 (age) +4 (spell) = 20

1. WIZARD 1 // Extend Spell
2. WIZARD 2
3. WIZARD 3 // Iron Will
4. WIZARD 4
5. WIZARD 5 // Quicken Spell (Wizard bonus feat)
6. INCANTATRIX 1 // Leadership, Persistent spell (Incantatrix bonus feat)
7. INCANTATRIX 2
8. INCANTATRIX 3


SPELLCRAFT by level 8

1. 11 ranks

2. +8 INT

3. +2 synergy (Knowledge (arcane)

4. + 12 Aid Another
a. Wizard cohort
b. Three familiars (yours, your cohort's, your cohort's cohort's) which share the skill ranks of masters
c. At least two followers > Level 1 are Adepts with ranks in Spellcraft

5. + 7 items
a. Masterwork kit +2
b. Lenses of Spellcraft +5

6. +5 spells
a. Guildance (cleric cantrip) +1
b. Mechanus Mind (Wiz 2) +2
c. Heroism (Wiz 3) +2
etc...

TOTAL: 45, i.e. automatically (and with overkill) beats all of the below DCs.

Cooperative Metamagic uses: 3 + 8 = 11 per day

Quicken Spells: Double your damage with help from this Incantatrix

QUICKENED REACH CHAIN GHOUL GLYPH: DC = 18 + (3*5) = 33
QUICKENED REACH CHAIN SLAY LIVING: DC = 18 + (3*8) = 42

Persist spells: Persist your best buffs with help from Incantatrix. the good thing about Persist is that generally you do it just once a day, before going out from your camp. Thus, you are entitled to Take 10 on the Spellcraft check, making the DCs more than accessible. Just a few gems:

PERSISTENT CONSUMPTIVE FIELD (DC 48 -10 = 38): +10 or more to Caster Level

Beyond all other incredible things it does (such as empowering your spells, overcoming spell resistance, and dispelling enemy buffs), one especially curious. If you cast Blasphemy at +10 CL, all nonevil creatures of your character level or lower in 30 ft are KILLED with NO SAVE; all up to 5 levels higher than you are PARALYZED with NO SAVE. Just a little something to look forward to 8=))

PERSISTENT “DIVINE POWER” (DC 48 - 10 = 38): At Caster Level 20 (which you’re getting with your Consumptive Field), this gives you 20 BAB, +6 enhancement to STR and +20 hp.

PERSISTENT “DIVINE FAVOR” (DC 39 - 10 = 29): +6 TO ATTACK/DAMAGE.

Now cast GREATER MAGIC WEAPON, to get a +5 enhancement on your favourite skullcrusher. Don’t forget Magic Vestment (on armor and shield) + Shield of Warding to get +15 to AC.

So, your 8 STR, level 10 weakling now has 5 attacks per round at +34/+27/+23/+18/+13 attack bonus, +13 bonus to damage, +15 AC, +20 hp, and +10 Caster Levels. FOR THE WHOLE DAY. And these buffs will be pretty hard to dispel, since they’ve been cast at caster level twice as high as your character level.

Plus, he can paralyze/kill everyone in sight in 1 round via spells.

And has an army of Undead, Dominated and Fanatic minions.

At level 10.

Not bad for Death Incarnate.

ravenkith
2009-03-07, 05:56 PM
Looks good, writing it up now. Only one question: Why silverbrow human? It seems to give...

Featherfall as a SLA, which is nice, and a bonus to disguises. And it has something to do with dragons, which opens up all those classes and things.

Is there something dragonny in this build? I havn't had a chance to read up on all eighteen (EDIT: On closer inspection, it comes to eleven.) classes you used just yet.


Silverbrow human gives you the Dragonblood subtype AS WELL AS a much needed bonus feat. The featherfall thing is nice too, but it definitely isn't the main reason for going this route.

The Dragonblood subtype is useful when combined with certain spells from Dragon Magic and/or Races of the Dragon. Take a look at the various 'wings' spells from the ROTD, for instance. Furthermore, it helps tie everything together thematically for the low, low cost of some bonus skill points at LA 0.

The feat is a necessary part of the build, and Silverbrow human is superior as compared to a normal human or a strongheart halfling for a sorceror - based caster.



EDIT: Also, at the "good things about this build" part at the bottom, you mention 3rd level cleric casting, even though there's four levels of cleric. Is that a typo or is there a prestige class that noms a level of cleric? Not complaining, just wondering.

EDIT2: OIC! The next level of cleric is at 11, and the benefits is for 10th level.

Yeah, the summary is JUST at level 10. One of the key features of the build at this point is that you're pretty much average or above average in EVERYTHING by level 10.

Keep in mind that your weakest save (REF, 6 + CHA, probably +9 total) is roughly on par with that of a monk of level ten status (+7 base, +3 or 4 modifier). Monks of course have good saves across the boards, if you recall, which means your weakest save here is STILL pretty damn good.

You've only dropped 1 point of base attack over 10 levels.

AND you've got an INSANE 'walking around' AC. I mean assuming no buffs, you're trotting around at 14 AC, 15 vs spells. Drop a greater mage armor on that sucker and you're kicking 20/21. Throw a swift shield up and you're pushing 25/26 AC without any equipment at level 10. ( In case you were wondering, that's the equivalent of 27,000gp of equipment for free).

Don't forget that you ALSO have access to Shield of Faith (+3 DEF immediately, up to +5 total), and your Shield spell will increase in value for each level of abchamp you add in, up to a total value of +9 Shield. This means that you will be able to drop an AC of 34/35 with no cash spent on equipment by level 17. Note that at level 17, you will have an AC equivalent to that of a CR 21 RED DRAGON.



EDIT3: Waaait a minute. Monk.. spellsword... sorcerer... FIST OF POLYMORPH!?
[/quote]

Uh...Sure. Counterproductive, but sure. Check out Draconic Polymorph, too. Check with your DM how he's running polymorph before you get too excited though. Lots of variants, fixes, and errata running around on that particular set of spells.

Keep in mind that this character is designed to deal death from range, primarily. It's greatest strength by far are the abilities centered around the Vitriolic Sphere and using it to take something down as fast as possible.

Note: Polymorph is a touch spell. Reach Spell turns Polymorph into a ray. A ray can be split to hit two targets using 'Split Ray'.

Can anybody say brie?

Undead Prince
2009-03-07, 07:00 PM
AND you've got an INSANE 'walking around' AC... you will be able to drop an AC of 34/35 with no cash spent on equipment by level 17. Note that at level 17, you will have an AC equivalent to that of a CR 21 RED DRAGON.

AC 52. At level 9. For a Wizard/Cleric. Just sayin'.


Note: Polymorph is a touch spell. Reach Spell turns Polymorph into a ray. A ray can be split to hit two targets using 'Split Ray'. Can anybody say brie?

That's not brie, that's merely Edamer 8=) It can become brie or camambert, though, with Chain Spell instead of Split Ray. Sure, it costs 1 more spell level, but instead of 2 targets, you can affect 22 8=)) and since you're Polymorphing friendlies, they'll be conveniently standing in a 30ft radius for you.

ravenkith
2009-03-07, 08:37 PM
AC 52. At level 9. For a Wizard/Cleric. Just sayin'.


Yes, your build is cheesy.

Mine is less so. :P

Undead Prince
2009-03-07, 08:49 PM
Yes, your build is cheesy.

Mine is less so. :P

If I wanted cheese, I'd have Chained Persistent Shapechange on 20+ minions... or I dunno, a Diplomancer who can stop any fight and make everyone his fanatical allies in the space of a round.

My build is reasonable, as it does not exploit the rules to their potential limit, but rather stops well before that.

Many of its features might be destroyed with a well-placed Disjunction or AMF.

What I rather think is that this build efficiently uses the potential of a level 10 Gestalt, and creates a balanced character that's just very strong in terms of regular CR calculation. It does not break the game, it allows the DM to increase the challenges and thus make the game more engaging for the players. It's very satisfying to know that your level 10 character can wade through encounters of much higher CR than normal; it gives one a sense of accomplishment. At the same time, the character is far from invincible, and still has to fight for dear life, only against tougher (and smarter) enemies than normal for his level.

Think of it as a "Hard" difficulty setting in a game.

shadow_archmagi
2009-03-08, 08:22 AM
Ravenkith, any specific spells that work well with all this? Obviously I'll be stopping by Solo's Superior Sorcerer Something or another, but advice on good spells is always welcome.

ravenkith
2009-03-08, 03:08 PM
Spell suggestions:

Well, I included a couple in my OP, but I'll reiterate, and add to it here:
Sniper's Shot (1st) (SpC) - allows you to make sneak attacks without a range limit.

Shivering Touch, Lesser (1st) (Frostburn) - used with the reach spell feat, becomes potentially devastating: has a bigger brother that can be exploited similarly: while some critters have tons of hitpoints, most don't have more than 20 points in DEX.

Truestrike (1st) (PHB) - Yeah. For those times when touch ac just isn't low enough - +20 to hit. Best when used in a wand.

Wings of Cover (2nd) (ROTD) - This one lets you tell someone to go f themselves as an immediate action when they decide to try and hunt you down. Also useful as a way to break visual contact so as to hide, immediately after having shot the big bad with a face full of vitriolic acid.

Assay Resistance (4th) (SpC) - If SR becomes an issue, this spell will help you.

Greater Invisibility (4th) (PHB) - This one's a no-brainer: you can go invisible, stay invisible and blast people while getting to add your sneak dice for rds/level.

Vitriolic Sphere (5th) (SpC) - Used in conjunction with your Spellwarp sniper abilities, creates an RTA with no save and no spell resistance. Combine with Split ray for mucho fun.

Arcane Spellsurge (7th) (ROTD) - You must check out this spell. Read it, Know it, Love it. Suffice to say it's a cheaper, better faster version of quicken spell.

You probably also want to pick up Ray of Flame (1st), Orb of Acid, Lesser (1st), Greater Mage Armor (3rd), Shield (1st), Scorching Ray (2nd), Lightning Bolt (3rd), Overland Flight (4th)....

Note that some of these spells can be REPLACED once you start picking up warlock invocations: the Warlock's at will Fell flight ability clearly is superior to Overland Flight, or alternatively, the Walk Unseen invocation can render greater invisibility somewhat superfluous (I'd go with fell flight, as GI is slightly better than WU).

Also, the Warlock's EB becomes a source of damage for pounding weaker critters, leaving you able to switch out 1st level slots for other, less combat oriented spells.

Finally, make sure you visit TLN's guide to being batman, as well as Solo's sorc guide - they both have things to contribute to spell lists. Remember that your spell choices are extremely limited, and try not to duplicate function TOO much.

Undead Prince
2009-03-08, 03:45 PM
your build is cheesy. Mine is less so.

All right, let's first look at your build, and then see if I can make mine less "cheesy". Apologies for being a bit critical, but that's how optimal solutions are formed - through discussion.


1: Monk 1//Rogue 1 (Spell Sense - CMAG)
2: Monk 2//Sorceror (Metamagic Specialist - PHB II) 1
3: Monk 3//Sorceror 2
4: Monk 4//Sorceror 3
5: Paladin (Of Freedom) 1//Sorceror 4
6: Paladin 2// Spellsword 1
7: Paladin 3//Abjurant Champion 1
8: Cleric 1//Spellwarp Sniper 1
9: Cleric 2//Spellwarp Sniper 2
10: Cleric 3//Spellwarp Sniper 3


First off, you’re going to get a 20% XP penalty during level 8. Sure, doesn’t look like much, but suddenly you’re behind all the other players in terms of character progress.


1st: Reach Spell H: Point Blank Shot FLAW: Combat Casting/Vulnerable FLAW: Energy Substitution: Cold/Non-combatant (-2 in melee) /// So you took 2 Flaws. Duly noted.
3rd: Ascetic Rogue /// +2 DC to stunning attack?
6th: Ascetic Mage //// Bonus to Unarmed BAB/damage for 1 round, by sacrificing spell slots?
9th: Split Ray /// How are you going to use Reach + Split ray when you can only cast 4th level spells? Since you don’t have any means of reducing metamagic cost, and the combo costs +4 to spell level, YOU CANNOT USE Reach/Split combo AT ALL.


Frankly, I don’t understand what you can do with this build. All your abilities seem to undermine each other.

You’ve expended 2 feats on rays which you can’t even use effectively as you don’t have the spellcasting ability / metamagic reduction to pull it off.

You've lost the familiar (which can be a VERY powerful asset) to remedy the fact that as a sorcerer you have to waste full-round actions just to apply metamagic; however, with your +1 INT modifier you can only use this 4 times per day.

You’ve expended 2 other feats to stack some monk abilities on the rogue/sorcerer, without improving neither of the classes.

You've taken Energy Substitution:Cold - why? Just to make a Cold Fireball? instead of a Cone of Cold? is it worth a feat?

Combat Casting - completely useless once you can reliably beat DC 15 Defensive Casting Concentration vs. AoOs (which will happen before you reach level 10).

You’ve taken PBS when the build seems to be oriented towards either unarmed melee or spellcasting (and again, you don’t have the ability to pull off ray metamagic).

So basically you go 3 ways at once and end up with a “jack of all trades – master of none”, i.e. a bard.

In fact, if you want rays and melee powerhousing, a non-gestalt build can give far better performance than yours.

Let's see:

AT 10th: (not fractional, Ref will definitely benefit if fractional allowed)
+ BAB: 9
+ FORT 12 + CHA
+ REF 6 + CHA
+ WILL 13 +CHA
+ Casting as 9th level Sorceror
+ Casting as 3rd level cleric
+ 3d6 Sneak + 1d6 Sudden Raystrike
+ CHA + 1 to AC, +1 vs. Spells
+ Monk class features (including Evasion)
+ Paladin class features (including +CHA to saves, immunities, LoH)
+ 7d8 + 3d10 HD

Cleric 5/Paragnostic Apostle 5
Domains: Undeath + Divine Magician [Spontaneous Domain Casting]
1. CLERIC 1 ||| Reach Spell, Divine Metamagic: Reach, Split Ray, Divine Metamagic: Split (Human + 2 flaws)
2. CLERIC 1
3. CLERIC 1 Rapid Metamagic ||| REACH SPLIT GHOUL GLYPH
4. CLERIC 1
5. CLERIC 1
6. PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 1 ||| Leadership (Wizard cohort to be turned into Incantatrix) ||| Get Slaymate (-1 to costs of all Metamagic feats on Necromancy spells)
7. PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 2 ||| SPLIT ENERVATION
8. PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 3
9. PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 4||| Master of Undeath ||| Your Incantatrix now ready to Persist all your buffs and supply Persistent Polymorphing and Hasting, as well as Quickening in combat ||| REACH SPLIT SLAY LIVING
10. PARAGNOSTIC APOSTLE 5

What can this simple build do by level 10?

OFFENCE RANGED:

QUICKENED REACH RAPID SPLIT GHOUL GLYPH: 4 creatures per round, at 30 ft, paralyzed for 1d6+2 rounds with no save/no attack roll to speak of;

QUICKENED SPLIT ENERVATION: 10 negative levels on 1 creature per round, at 75 ft, no save;

QUICKENED REACH SPLIT SLAY LIVING: 4 creatures per round at 30ft range have to save or die; or 2 creatures have to save twice or die.

Caster Level 20 (or more; Persistent Consumptive Field)

All of these, as well as any other Reach-Split combos, are useable up to 8 times/day (10 with Nightstick) without increasing the spell slot. I.e. you cast that Quickened Reach Split Ghoul Glyph from a 2nd level slot.

Paragnostic Apostle offensive bonuses:

+1 Caster level vs. SR and for dispelling;
+1 DC, +2 turning level vs. Undead (good for Commanding);
+1 Caster Level for spells on any Domain's spell list (e.g. Undeath to create more/more powerful Undead);
+1 DC to all spells vs. humanoids

OFFENCE MELEE:

I’m sure you’re acquainted with Mr Cave Troll:

Str 35 (29 Troll +6 Persistent Divine Power), Dex 13, Con 31 (27 Troll +4 item or spell)
6 attacks per round at +45/+45/+38/+34/+29/+24 attack bonus, with 10ft natural reach
Damage: 2d6+23 (Large Longsword), 3d6+29 (Large Greatsword)
AC 65 (10 base +11 natural +1 Dex +10 non-magic Full plate and Heavy shield, +14 2xMagic Vestment (armor & shield), +7 Shield of Warding (sacred), +7 Shield of Faith (deflection) +5 Dragonskin (natural enhancement) +1 Persistent Haste -1 size)
50% miss chance due to concealment (Persistent Displacement);
152 hp (9d8+72 (112; Troll) +20 (Divine Power) +20 (Bear's Endurance or item))
+20 energy resistance to 1 type of energy (e.g. Fire; Dragonskin)
Speed 40ft land (Cave Troll), 40ft Flight (Persistent Fly)

Has the following Persistent spells active 24/7 at Caster Level 20 (Consumptive Field): Divine Power, Divine Favor, Consumptive Field, Fly, Displacement, Polymorph; also has Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, and a couple of other long-duration buffs all cast at 20 CL (so impossible to dispel by anyone below caster level 11).

All Armor spells cast by myself provide +2 AC bonus each thanks to Paragnostic Apostle Mind over Matter ability.

NON-COMBAT

+20 to Diplomacy check without spells; makes friends easily.

MINIONS:

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3 Cohort with the following active 24/7 at Caster Level 20: Consumptive Field, Fly, Displacement, Haste, Polymorph (Troll or other critter);

Her familiar, also affected by the Consumptive Field, Fly, Displacement, Haste and Polymorph (Troll);

>80 HD of Undead under undispellable command, plus one Undead creature of any HD (can be a Ju-Ju Zombie Ancient Dragon). They are all affected by Persistent Haste; -50% creation cost thanks to Reach + Split Ray;

Followers: one 4th level, one 3rd level, three 2nd level, thirty 1st level. Great for Aid Another checks, Cooperative Metamagic with rods, crafting low-level items and potions, and generally keeping your base of operations in good shape;

Undead Commanded via Rebuke/Command (as a 12th level cleric naked, as >20th level cleric with some cheap items): 2-3 Master Vampires with an ever growing coterie of spawned vampires enslaved to the Masters;

With Domain Substitution spell - possibility to Command Efreet for Wishes.

Now THAT’s a character that can make a difference.

And please note – no Chain Spell, and not a gestalt.

ravenkith
2009-03-09, 03:41 AM
All right, let's first look at your build, and then see if I can make mine less "cheesy". Apologies for being a bit critical, but that's how optimal solutions are formed - through discussion.


Dude, critique away!




First off, you’re going to get a 20% XP penalty during level 8. Sure, doesn’t look like much, but suddenly you’re behind all the other players in terms of character progress.


You are absolutely right. EXCEPT he's already level 10. So, uh, no penalty need apply. ;)



Frankly, I don’t understand what you can do with this build. All your abilities seem to undermine each other.


Enh, I've got a twisty mind. Not many people can understand me with ease.



You’ve expended 2 feats on rays which you can’t even use effectively as you don’t have the spellcasting ability / metamagic reduction to pull it off.


Not so - As I said, the build reaches full power at level 12. Until 12 it can perform either/or, but after 12, and with Arcane thesis in play, it can mix and match.



You've lost the familiar (which can be a VERY powerful asset) to remedy the fact that as a sorcerer you have to waste full-round actions just to apply metamagic; however, with your +1 INT modifier you can only use this 4 times per day.


Take a look at the spell Arcane Spellsurge from Races of the Dragon, and do the math: In one round, you will be able to serve up two metamagicked spells thanks to this ability, up to 4 times a day. Add in a simple casting of Fox's cunning...or a headband of intellect, and you get an extra +2-3 quickened castings, without burning a feat to do so.

Familiars are flavorful and fun and all...but their abilities are in part based off your SORCEROR level. Yeah, that's gonna be real helpful in this build. SACK IT!



You’ve expended 2 other feats to stack some monk abilities on the rogue/sorcerer, without improving neither of the classes.


I've used a feat to get a bonus to ac equal to my charisma modifier, instead of my wisdom modifier (Ascetic Mage).

Having reread the text description of ascetic rogue, I see you are absolutely right with regards to this feat - it is useless. The table describes it as allowing monk and rogue to stack for SNEAK ATTACK, while the text says Improved Unarmed Strike. :smallannoyed:

I should have read the text - I had just glanced at the table to reconfirm my original recollection.

If your DM says it's supposed to be SA and not IUS, you're good, otherwise dump it for, say, Sculpt Spell, which can be exceedingly useful, or move the Split Ray Feat down into the Ascetic Rogue feat's spot, and replace it at 9th with Residual Magic.

Residual magic is the way to go here, I suppose...it sucks ass losing out on multiple SA dice though. :smallfurious:



You've taken Energy Substitution:Cold - why? Just to make a Cold Fireball? instead of a Cone of Cold? is it worth a feat?


In actual fact ES: Cold is in the build for a number of reasons:
1. It's thematic: the character is descended from Silver Dragons. This character's journey is one of learning to deal with his inherited magic in a number of different ways.

2. From a practical standpoint, Cold is one of the least commonly immune/resisted types of damage, and has the virtue of dealing double damage versus red dragons and being able to bypass most demon/devil immunities (See the Balor).

3. Since our core spell (vitriolic sphere) is acid, and the most common damage spells are Fire and Lightning, by judicious spell selection, and with the elemental sub: cold feat, you should always be able to throw something the bad guy is NOT immune or resistant to.



Combat Casting - completely useless once you can reliably beat DC 15 Defensive Casting Concentration vs. AoOs (which will happen before you reach level 10).


*Ahem* If you look at Abjurant Champion, you'll see it is a pre-req for entry into this otherwise fabulous PrC. If I wasn't going Abchamp, it wouldn't be in the build, I assure you.



You’ve taken PBS when the build seems to be oriented towards either unarmed melee or spellcasting (and again, you don’t have the ability to pull off ray metamagic).


*Ahem* Take a look at Spellwarp Sniper - PBS is listed under the pre-reqs....



So basically you go 3 ways at once and end up with a “jack of all trades – master of none”, i.e. a bard.


Wow, Harsh. Bards suck. We all know this. Ha-ha. Seriously though thank you for pointing out the rogue feat - it was a very large oversight on my part.

As for the rest of it....Not so much with the bard thing. The character ends up being both highly resistant to harm and extremely durable, between it's saves and hitpoints.

It gets a great bonus to attack roles, almost ensuring it's RTAs will not miss.

It can blow things away, heal himself or others, and has enough skills and class skills to be reasonably decent as a skill monkey.

Plus now, with Residual Magic figured in, it becomes even more hideously nasty.

Arcane Spellsurge + Metamagic Specialist spell + normal metamagic spell + residual magic = yay! fun time!



In fact, if you want rays and melee powerhousing, a non-gestalt build can give far better performance than yours.


Yeah, never really wanted melee powerhousing.

Also: What about saves/bab/warlock invocations/dr/healing/cleric spells/hit dice?

shadow_archmagi
2009-03-09, 05:43 AM
So, I'm assuming here that Sudden Raystrike *stacks* with sneak attack dice, right? Because otherwise the focus on sneak attack is fairly pointless anyway (but the rogue levels still worth it for that sweet sweet second evasion to be turned into shooting people's spells back at them)

Heliomance
2009-03-09, 05:50 AM
Warlock/Binder

Basically you are playing a man with a deep connection to spirits. He has several spirits working for him, on several shifts, since he doesn't feel that 24/7 work is right, as it denies spirits their free time. However, some of the spirit magic has rubbed off on him, and he is able to use the basics by himself. Eldritch blast, blast shape and non-blast invocations are his magic. Gets along really well with ghosts and such. Everything else uses spirits. In combat he is constantly calling on spirits to help him, even with warlock attacks.
For example.
Utterdark Blast- "Iel, I know you hate killing people, but this guy brought this on himself."

Or:
Sickening Blast-"Kya, help me out here."
Two rounds later, things have gone south.
Alright, I hate to do this. "Rin, Phe, go grab Iel, tell her I'll make it up to her, and I know she's off shift."

Its not optimized, but its a fun concept.

That's an awesome idea and I'd like to steal it. Please?

Undead Prince
2009-03-09, 06:32 AM
You are absolutely right. EXCEPT he's already level 10. So, uh, no penalty need apply. ;)

Not so. When starting a game at a level above 1, what players get is an equal amount of XP. This, depending on their build, may land them at a lower level than a straight char would've gotten. E.g.: if you pick a race with +1 ECL, you'd have enough XP to advance to level 9, but not 10; so you start the game on the level the XP gives you.

An opposite approach would allow crazy XP-penalty-ignoring builds, which is not a good way to start a campaign.

Thus, if his build accrued a 20% penalty during level 8, he'll be starting the game at 43400 XP, which is 1600 XP behind Level 10. So everyone will be Level 10 while he'll be Level 9, and since future XP will be equally divided between party members, he'll always be aquiring levels later than the rest of the party. It may be minor, but not a good feeling nonetheless.

And you will again have an XP penalty at level 14 for Warlock.


As I said, the build reaches full power at level 12.


it's a 10th level game

I understood that the challenge was to make a good build for level 10. So anything beyond that may be a nice bonus, but irrelevant to the basic issue.



Take a look at the spell Arcane Spellsurge from Races of the Dragon

It's actually from Dragon Magic, and it's a level 7 spell, so your build doesn't get it until level 15, which is a) way beyond the build challenge (10th level), b) probably around the end of the OP's game ("I don't think I've ever had one of our games reach 20"). And although the spell is surely cool for sorcerors, it does burn one of your precious 7th level slots.


In one round, you will be able to serve up two metamagicked spells thanks to this ability

Yes, but you'll still have to pay the spell level cost for metamagic.


Familiars are flavorful and fun and all...but their abilities are in part based off your SORCEROR level. Yeah, that's gonna be real helpful in this build. SACK IT!

No way, don't sack it 8=))) Familiars have 2 coolest features: Share spells and Imbue with Spell Ability. Share Spells means that when you cast that Polymorph, Persistified by your Incantatrix Cohort, it also automatically affects your familiar. As well as all other spells you cast that affect you: i.e. Fly, Displacement, Mage Armor, Foresight, Moment of Prescience, Ethereal Jaunt etc. etc.

Imbue with Spell Ability (a 6th level spell, Spell Compendium) allows you to make your familiar cast your spells - effectively doubling the number of actions available to you. The familiar will become an awesome fighting/spellcasting/divining machine. And you want to lose this capacity for what? An extremely minor ability that functions only a few times per day? Nah.


I've used a feat to get a bonus to ac equal to my charisma modifier, instead of my wisdom modifier (Ascetic Mage)

Yep. That's what I'm talking about. You're wasting feats to juggle your abilities around without actually improving them.


Having reread the text description of ascetic rogue, I see you are absolutely right with regards to this feat - it is useless. The table describes it as allowing monk and rogue to stack for SNEAK ATTACK, while the text says Improved Unarmed Strike. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, it's some sort of editing error. But the feat description takes precedence over the table.


move the Split Ray Feat down into the Ascetic Rogue feat's spot, and replace it at 9th with Residual Magic.

A cool feat, but allows a free application of only 1 metamagic. So if you're using a reach+split combo, you still pay 2 spell levels.



In actual fact ES: Cold is in the build for a number of reasons:
2. From a practical standpoint, Cold is one of the least commonly immune/resisted types of damage, and has the virtue of dealing double damage versus red dragons and being able to bypass most demon/devil immunities (See the Balor).

IMHO, Cold is a pretty common immune as compared to, say, Acid or Magic. High-level creatures would probably have Protection from Energy up to counteract their energy vulnerabilities. And finally, you're a Sorceror. Your basic advantage is being able to choose spells dependant on the situation (e.g. Cone of Cold or Ice Storm instead of Fireball or Firebrand). That's what I mean when I say your abilities undermine one another - you waste a feat just to duplicate a feature your build already has.



*Ahem* pre-req for entry *Ahem*pre-reqs

Yep, that was the whole point. You're wasting feats on prerequisites. Personally, I hate doing that. There are very few classes, IMHO, that justify wasting feats.

For instance, my build doesnt waste a single feat on prereqs, and as a result gains abilities far surpassing those of any prestige class, plus a bunch of goodness from Paragnostic Apostle.


The character ends up being both highly resistant to harm and extremely durable, between it's saves and hitpoints.

I'm not saying your char is bad. No, it's imaginative and probably CR-appropriate. But it does attempt to do several things at once, and ends up being mediocre in all of them.


It gets a great bonus to attack roles, almost ensuring it's RTAs will not miss.

Less than a fighter of equal level would get. And since you've foregone the familiar, and don't have any capacity for Persistifying spells, you can't use Polymorph effectively.


It can blow things away, heal himself or others, and has enough skills and class skills to be reasonably decent as a skill monkey.

It heals as a 3rd level cleric. With Wisdom a dump stat. I.e. 2-3 Cure Moderate wounds. At 10th level, the characters would be getting more and better healing from potions. And your char would be better spending his actions sorcering or hitting away.


Arcane Spellsurge + Metamagic Specialist spell + normal metamagic spell + residual magic

Yeah, it's a nice combo, too bad you'll only get it by level 15, when the game will probably be over 8-(


What about saves/bab/warlock invocations/dr/healing/cleric spells/hit dice?

You get Warlock 1 at level 14, and Warlock 3 by level 17. And warlock is a very weak class at lower levels. The only benefit I can think of is that Dark One's Own Luck will let you add CHA bonus to your saves. Which is nice. Come to think of it, saves are about the only strong point of this build.

Seriously, after level 10 it just gets worse. You add in another base class instead of improving your existing abilities. So in the end you're not just a bard, you're a mega-bard.

Of course, it doesn't mean the build's unplayable. It just takes particular taste to like it. I, for one, prefer more focus and power, and less waste on low-level minor abilities. Beyond level 10, DnD becomes very challenging with a good DM. But in the end, it comes to the players and the DM to set the difficulty. If the general power of the party is on par with your char, then it's OK. Though I think the game deserves a bit more.

I gave you an example of a low-cheese non-gestalt build that would have serious power at level 10, in the areas you seem to prefer (rays and magic) and in other areas as well. It's a character that can take care of himself, doesn't need to be protected, and can mop the floor with much higher CR encounters. With such a character, you can really challenge the DM, and make the game interesting to play. You also allow other members of the party more freedom and options - they don't need to cover your weaknesses and can play whatever character they like, in whatever way they prefer. In sum, the party can achieve better results with more flexibility and have more fun in the process.

But that's just my POV.

ravenkith
2009-03-09, 03:48 PM
Not so. When starting a game at a level above 1, what players get is an equal amount of XP. This, depending on their build, may land them at a lower level than a straight char would've gotten. E.g.: if you pick a race with +1 ECL, you'd have enough XP to advance to level 9, but not 10; so you start the game on the level the XP gives you.

An opposite approach would allow crazy XP-penalty-ignoring builds, which is not a good way to start a campaign.

Thus, if his build accrued a 20% penalty during level 8, he'll be starting the game at 43400 XP, which is 1600 XP behind Level 10. So everyone will be Level 10 while he'll be Level 9, and since future XP will be equally divided between party members, he'll always be aquiring levels later than the rest of the party. It may be minor, but not a good feeling nonetheless.

And you will again have an XP penalty at level 14 for Warlock.


Seriously, your DM is that much of an ass?...



I understood that the challenge was to make a good build for level 10. So anything beyond that may be a nice bonus, but irrelevant to the basic issue.


Okay.



It's actually from Dragon Magic, and it's a level 7 spell, so your build doesn't get it until level 15, which is a) way beyond the build challenge (10th level), b) probably around the end of the OP's game ("I don't think I've ever had one of our games reach 20"). And although the spell is surely cool for sorcerors, it does burn one of your precious 7th level slots.


Cool for Sorcerors...? Yes, yes I'd say it is 'cool'. Also: Quicken is normally a +6 MMF - normally it is not possible to quicken anything above a third level spell. As a 7th level spell KNOWN, it is cheap, cheap cheap.



Yes, but you'll still have to pay the spell level cost for metamagic.


Yeah, it's metamagic: also - Arcane thesis. also - Residual Magic.



No way, don't sack it 8=))) Familiars have 2 coolest features: Share spells and Imbue with Spell Ability. Share Spells means that when you cast that Polymorph, Persistified by your Incantatrix Cohort, it also automatically affects your familiar. As well as all other spells you cast that affect you: i.e. Fly, Displacement, Mage Armor, Foresight, Moment of Prescience, Ethereal Jaunt etc. etc.


1. Incantantrix cohort? We're talking about the same DM that insisted on a 1600 xp penalty here?

2. Familiars are tiny fragile things that go squish in the night. On paper they sound great...but in practice, it has half as many HP as you do, and you are a wizard/sorc whatever.



Imbue with Spell Ability (a 6th level spell, Spell Compendium) allows you to make your familiar cast your spells - effectively doubling the number of actions available to you. The familiar will become an awesome fighting/spellcasting/divining machine. And you want to lose this capacity for what? An extremely minor ability that functions only a few times per day? Nah.


Actually, you are mis-stating your case: You have to cast it multiple times for multiple spells, which uses up a ton of SPD, because A) you are casting ISA and B) you are giving away a slot for each spell you imbue.

Yay! a 2 for one trade off!

Plus: FAMILIAR. What happens when your enemy gets smart and decides to fry the sucker that has 6 more spells on it? That's right, you just lost those spells like you never even had 'em.



Yep. That's what I'm talking about. You're wasting feats to juggle your abilities around without actually improving them.


CHA TO AC? A waste? Okay, so now, when I buy that Headband of Charisma +6, (I don't like taking up a cloak slot) not only do I get improved spellcasting, I also get improved AC for the low cost of just 1 item...how is this a bad thing again?



Yeah, it's some sort of editing error. But the feat description takes precedence over the table.


DM trumps text. <shrug>. That aside, it's gone, let it go.



A cool feat, but allows a free application of only 1 metamagic. So if you're using a reach+split combo, you still pay 2 spell levels.


Weren't you the one complaining about not having enough ways to do cheap metamagic in the build? Geez, you try to please some people... :smallbiggrin: :P

Imagine dropping a maximized spell (say ray of flame). Next round drop a split ray of flame. It gets maximized for free. Yay! Free metamagic! Yes/no?



IMHO, Cold is a pretty common immune as compared to, say, Acid or Magic. High-level creatures would probably have Protection from Energy up to counteract their energy vulnerabilities.


1. Cold IS more resisted than Acid or Force (I'm assuming force is what you meant when you said magic). Take a look at the primary damage dealer I have chosen: Vitriolic Sphere.

Base damage type is, of course, ACID.

However, specialized in this spell, there are a large number of enemies that will be immune to it, most notably black dragons, for instance.

To deal with this problem, you have two choices: 1) Specialize in another spell using Arcane Thesis again, -or- 2) Modify the existing spell.

Force is NOT a suitable choice for elemental substitution. In fact, AFAIK, there is no way to sub out an elemental damage type for force (or even sonic, which would naturally be superior to cold). This leaves cold as the best possible choice.



And finally, you're a Sorceror. Your basic advantage is being able to choose spells dependant on the situation (e.g. Cone of Cold or Ice Storm instead of Fireball or Firebrand). That's what I mean when I say your abilities undermine one another - you waste a feat just to duplicate a feature your build already has.


The spells you mention, along with other spells dealing cold damage, almost always seem to be underpowered or deficient in some way when compared to spells that deal different types of damage.

Cone of Cold: It's a friggin CONE. Cones SUCK. First, it's short damn range (60ft), and second, it doesn't cover a whole hell of a lot of area. 5th level spell! Puh-leeze.

Ice storm: It's a cylinder. Not as bad as a cone. But it's capped at 5d6. Wow, that's a whole mess of suckitude for a 4th level slot.

Comparing either of these to fireball leaves no doubt as to which spell you should pick of the three in terms of versatility and maximum bang for the buck. With ONE feat, you make that spell viable against most of the MM. Finally, ES is needed for Energy Admixture, which doubles damage dice.



Yep, that was the whole point. You're wasting feats on prerequisites. Personally, I hate doing that. There are very few classes, IMHO, that justify wasting feats.


I agree. Abjurant Champion and Spellwarp Sniper happen to be two of those classes that are worth the 1 feat expenditure a piece. Compare if you will to Incantatrix (2 feats, 1 school of magic) and IOTSV (3 feats!)

Abjurant Champion makes ALL of your abjurations swift and extended, ALL of the time, FOR FREE, acts to improve those abjurations that grant an AC bonus, and gives you +1 BAB/lvl and a d10 hp/lvl for the low cost of one lousy feat.

Spellwarp Sniper is the ONLY prestige class that allows you to take an area effect with an associated reflex save, and turn it into a ray, (stripping the save in the process), allowing you to perpetrate massive damage via use of the Vitriolic Sphere spell.

I'm sorry, but that one combination means you are tossing acid damage with no save and no spell resistance...add in Cold sub, and you should be able to terminate anything that moves.



For instance, my build doesnt waste a single feat on prereqs, and as a result gains abilities far surpassing those of any prestige class, plus a bunch of goodness from Paragnostic Apostle.


80 HD of undead? An Incantatrix cohort? 5d8+5d4 HD? A reflex save that would make a baby seal laugh?

1. Assuming this is the same DM that was such a stickler about 1600 xp, you will NOT get the first two.

2. Your build has some gaping holes in it's defenses.

Maybe this is where we differ so much.

See, from my point of view, you have to remember that this is D&D - there is always someone walking around with access to a bigger stick than you have.

You will get hit.
You will fail saves.
You will take damage.

These are facts.

You must have ways to mitigate the amount of damage you are going to take, and survive what's left over, and fix it after the fact.

Your AC and your saves are, frankly, bad. Your HD are terrible. You will probably end up going down more often than a $2...well you know the rest of that saying, I'm sure.



I'm not saying your char is bad. No, it's imaginative and probably CR-appropriate. But it does attempt to do several things at once, and ends up being mediocre in all of them.


No, there were some clear mistakes, looking back. You were right about those. However, there were several things I was attempting to do with this build:
1. Keep BAB high. - 9/10 is pretty good.
2. Keep defenses high. - Yeah, covered this with weakest save = monk equivalent.
3. Create an arcane magic user that can make things dead, bypassing as many defenses as possible. - As of 10th? Doable. However, 12ish = win.
4. Include some way of recovering from damage after the fact (in downtime between combats). - Done: See 'Vigor, Lesser', SpC.



Less than a fighter of equal level would get. And since you've foregone the familiar, and don't have any capacity for Persistifying spells, you can't use Polymorph effectively.


1. Fighters generally suck. 9/10 is about as good as you are going to get without sacrificing CL or versatility and/or survivability.
2. Familiars are fun, flavorful and fragile. XP hits waiting to happen.
3. Persisting spells = +6 or cheese. Neither is indicated here.
4. Polymorph is subject to much errata, and/or houserules. Better to not count on it at all.



It heals as a 3rd level cleric. With Wisdom a dump stat. I.e. 2-3 Cure Moderate wounds. At 10th level, the characters would be getting more and better healing from potions. And your char would be better spending his actions sorcering or hitting away.

The cleric levels are here to a) shore up saves b) grant d8 hd, c) grant 3/4 bab, d) grant access to various divine spells through adding them to your spell list (thus making them usable from staves & Wands), e) grant out of combat healing, f) grant access to the ED PrC.

A wand of cure light wounds or Lesser Vigor is inherently superior to a potion of selfsame spells.

A staff of healing, or a wand of vigor, is even better still.



Yeah, it's a nice combo, too bad you'll only get it by level 15, when the game will probably be over 8-(


Okay....
1. I thought we agreed that it only really counted til 10?

2. That's fine - @ 15th level, (5 levels away) you'll have a badass combo. Plus, you got everything you need to kick ass @ 12th anyway.



You get Warlock 1 at level 14, and Warlock 3 by level 17. And warlock is a very weak class at lower levels. The only benefit I can think of is that Dark One's Own Luck will let you add CHA bonus to your saves. Which is nice. Come to think of it, saves are about the only strong point of this build.


What is the point of Warlock in this build? Think MACRO.
1. Eldritch blast. Sure, it isn't going to work against big bads.

But it is extremely effective against swarms of minions, which becomes a VERY common tactic for DMs to use against high level casters. Usually in an attempt to wipe out their higher level spells before putting them against a big bad.

Being able to zap things ALL DAY LONG with no expenditure of spell slots is a good thing.

Plus, it allows you to try and mitigate the other anti-caster favorite: Time crunches. Periods of time when the caster just cannot get his eight hours rest, due to external pressures imposed by the DM.

EB: It's weak - but it's better than nothing.

2. Invocations.
Yeah, Buffing your ref save could be nice here, but in actual fact, I was thinking of Darkness, Devil's Sight, Summon Swarm and Fell Flight.

Darkness & Devil's Sight is useful against opponents who cannot see in magical darkness - it preserves SPD by allowing you to not spend 4th level spells on GI until you REALLY need it. Oh, and you can do this over and over, all day, with little to no effort - if someone actually dispels your darkness, just cast it again - I guarantee you can do it more than they can.

Summon Swarm is another All Day spell for dealing with minions: Spider Swarms are immune to normal damage, and dish out 1d6 a round to up to four squares.

Combined with invisibility, flight, or darkness & devil's sight, it is one spell that can turn the tide.

Fell Flight, of course, is a free, all day, fly. With your built in Feather Fall (Silverbrow human), you can safely rely on this at will invocation and not have to spend a 3rd or 4th level slot on generating an important (but situational) tactical advantage.

In addition, with warlock in play, you gain access to Eldritch Disciple, which allows you to use your turn attempts for even more healing capacity AND progresses your warlock AND cleric abilities while generating a d8 hd, 3/4 bab, and reasonable saves.



Seriously, after level 10 it just gets worse. You add in another base class instead of improving your existing abilities. So in the end you're not just a bard, you're a mega-bard.


As you can see - everything I do in the build has a purpose relating back to the core idea: rays & arcane casting, and generating a way to whack people without getting whacked.



I gave you a build.<snip>...It's a character that can take care of himself, doesn't need to be protected, and can mop the floor with much higher CR encounters.


My character is independent, self-sufficient, and at level 12 can deal with most equivalent CR encounters Solo. With luck and a little preparation, he could conceivably defeat enemies up to 5 crs above his level.

The build I proposed protects itself and is as durable as most tanks, if not more so.



You also allow other members of the party more freedom and options - they don't need to cover your weaknesses and can play whatever character they like, in whatever way they prefer. In sum, the party can achieve better results with more flexibility and have more fun in the process.


The build I proposed in no way affects the choices of other players. This line of reasoning in your argument is at best, irrelevant.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-09, 04:24 PM
A couple of points:

1) AC sucks for a caster. You shouldn't have to worry about it, as you shouldn't be relying on it to not get hit. See also: Greater Mirror Image.

2)
Abjurant Champion makes ALL of your abjurations swift and extended, ALL of the time, FOR FREE, acts to improve those abjurations that grant an AC bonus, and gives you +1 BAB/lvl and a d10 hp/lvl for the low cost of one lousy feat.No.

Abjurant Champion allows you to free swift and extend Abjuration spells of half your AbChamp levels, round up. That means... 1st through 3rd. Hardly all of them. Okay, there are times where a Quickened Dispel Magic is handy, and a Quickened Shield for +9 Shield bonus to AC isn't bad either, since it also auto-blocks Magic Missiles, but you are overstating its abilities.

Also, see #1 above as to why the bonus to the Shield spell (the ONLY abjuration spell that grants a bonus to AC that the class ability will affect, considering Mage Armor is, in point of fact, Conjuration) is rather worthless.

ravenkith
2009-03-09, 05:00 PM
A couple of points:
1) AC sucks for a caster.


I beg to disagree. AC cannot be defeated by a single casting of true seeing.

Granted: AC spells CAN be dispelled - but at least there's an opposed roll involved there.

With true seeing: BAM! There goes blink, mirror image, etc, etc.

Yes, by all means, stack that crap on top of a decent AC, but for god's sake don't ignore one of your fundamental defenses, especially when it's so easy to strip the other defenses away.

Also Mage Armor = hrs/level - MI, Blink, etc = minutes or rounds....

Finally, yes, sorry didn't mean to mislead with the abchamp thing, it's just up to third level abjuration spells that you can get extended and quickened for free.

Dispel Magic, Protection from Energy, Protection from arrows, shield, protection from (alignment)...and that's just the PHB.

only1doug
2009-03-09, 05:02 PM
A couple of points:

1) AC sucks for a caster. You shouldn't have to worry about it, as you shouldn't be relying on it to not get hit. See also: Greater Mirror Image.

2) No.

Abjurant Champion allows you to free swift and extend Abjuration spells of half your AbChamp levels, round up. That means... 1st through 3rd. Hardly all of them. Okay, there are times where a Quickened Dispel Magic is handy, and a Quickened Shield for +9 Shield bonus to AC isn't bad either, since it also auto-blocks Magic Missiles, but you are overstating its abilities.

Also, see #1 above as to why the bonus to the Shield spell (the ONLY abjuration spell that grants a bonus to AC that the class ability will affect, considering Mage Armor is, in point of fact, Conjuration) is rather worthless.

Split the difference: Abjurant Champion allows you to free swift of half your AbChamp levels, round up And extend all Abjuration spells. (see page 50 complete mage)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-09, 06:29 PM
I beg to disagree. AC cannot be defeated by a single casting of true seeing.

Granted: AC spells CAN be dispelled - but at least there's an opposed roll involved there.

With true seeing: BAM! There goes blink, mirror image, etc, etc.

Yes, by all means, stack that crap on top of a decent AC, but for god's sake don't ignore one of your fundamental defenses, especially when it's so easy to strip the other defenses away. AC is worthless to a caster, because there is no way they can get enough of it to make a difference. The only kind of AC they can stack like that is ignored by RTA's, which are the only ones without insane bonuses that beatsticks typically have. To avoid Beatsticks, it's called Fly and Invisibility.


Also Mage Armor = hrs/level - MI, Blink, etc = minutes or rounds.... Greater Mirror Image has a longer duration than Mirror Image. Blink is better found in a ring.


Finally, yes, sorry didn't mean to mislead with the abchamp thing, it's just up to third level abjuration spells that you can get extended and quickened for free.

Dispel Magic, Protection from Energy, Protection from arrows, shield, protection from (alignment)...and that's just the PHB.

And if you take them all as a Sorcerer, your GM will laugh. Granted, Protection from Energy (or Resist Energy) is a good buy if you know you're running up against a lot of blasters, and Dispel Magic is ALWAYS handy to have on hand. Other than that, you have maybe Shield and ProEvil, and that's all the 1st-3rd most sorcerers ever want to bother with.

Undead Prince
2009-03-09, 09:06 PM
Seriously, your DM is that much of an ass?...



If you tell players to create characters of higher than 1st level, assign an experience point total for them to use. Doing this is better than just assigning a level because it balances characters who take multiclass penalties against those who do not.

Seriously.




Quicken is normally a +6 MMF

Quicken is +4.


As a 7th level spell KNOWN, it is cheap, cheap cheap.

Again, it's a cool spell for sorcerors. It doesn't do anything for wizards or other non-spontaneous casters.



1. Incantantrix cohort? We're talking about the same DM that insisted on a 1600 xp penalty here?

Yep, same one. Name's RAW.


Familiars are tiny fragile things that go squish in the night. On paper they sound great...but in practice, it has half as many HP as you do, and you are a wizard/sorc whatever.

Honestly, do you even read what I'm writing here? Share Spells? Polymorph? Squishy familiar => 29 STR, 27 CON, 112 hp Cave Troll at level 9? Fly, Displacement, Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image - etc. etc. - FOR FREE on the familiar? He'll be a veritable juggernaut. And Imbue with spell ability - you get TWICE the number of actions per round FREE, this beats Quicken or Celerity hands down.


Actually, you are mis-stating your case: You have to cast it multiple times for multiple spells, which uses up a ton of SPD, because A) you are casting ISA and B) you are giving away a slot for each spell you imbue.

A complete miss.


you can imbue one spell per three caster levels, with a maximum spell level of one-third your caster level, rounded down (maximum 5th level). Multiple castings of imbue familiar with spell ability have no effect on these limits.

So at CL 20 (easily achievable by character level 10 via Consumption Field) you can transfer six spells of 5th level or lower to your familiar, for a singe casting of this 6th level spell. That's like six free Quickened Spells - but better, because it doesnt eat your own swift actions and allows much greater flexibility (the familiar can cast them in any order, at any target, and from a different location).


Plus: FAMILIAR. What happens when your enemy gets smart and decides to fry the sucker that has 6 more spells on it? That's right, you just lost those spells like you never even had 'em.

If the enemy is wasting his actions trying to kill your familiar (which has the same saving throws and buffs/protections as you have), that means he is not trying to kill you. Which is good! If he manages to succeed in killing the familiar, that means he would have succeeded in killing you, and in this case - better dead familiar than dead you, right?


CHA TO AC? A waste? Okay, so now, when I buy that Headband of Charisma +6, (I don't like taking up a cloak slot) not only do I get improved spellcasting, I also get improved AC for the low cost of just 1 item...how is this a bad thing again?

You could have bought a Periapt of Wisdom with that Headband of Charisma. And had the same AC bonus + more/better cleric spellcasting. You've just sold a feat "for the low cost of just 1 item".


Imagine dropping a maximized spell (say ray of flame). Next round drop a split ray of flame. It gets maximized for free. Yay! Free metamagic! Yes/no?

Yes, it IS free metamagic, which is what I said the first time. I also said that you still get to pay for a) the first application of the metamagic, b) for all other elements of the combo (say, reach + split). You're still paying dearly for that ray metamagic, whereas my build gets it for free.



To deal with this problem, you have two choices: 1) Specialize in another spell using Arcane Thesis again, -or- 2) Modify the existing spell.

OK, I see your point now.

Too bad Arcane Thesis is not even in your 10-level build.


In fact, AFAIK, there is no way to sub out an elemental damage type for force (or even sonic, which would naturally be superior to cold).

There are ways to make it divine damage, which is unresistable.


The spells you mention, along with other spells dealing cold damage, almost always seem to be underpowered or deficient in some way when compared to spells that deal different types of damage.

OK, point taken. I'm not a fan of Evocation, so some of its subtleties might elude me.


I agree. Abjurant Champion and Spellwarp Sniper happen to be two of those classes that are worth the 1 feat expenditure a piece. Compare if you will to Incantatrix (2 feats, 1 school of magic) and IOTSV (3 feats!)

Incantatrix has only 1 useless feat (Iron Will), because she would've taken metamagic anyway. 1 school is no pain for a Diviner. And I wouldn't touch the Initiate with a 7-foot polearm - the only thing he's good is being a minion. It's a matter of taste, though.


Abjurant Champion makes ALL of your abjurations swift and extended, ALL of the time, FOR FREE, acts to improve those abjurations that grant an AC bonus, and gives you +1 BAB/lvl and a d10 hp/lvl for the low cost of one lousy feat.

A misunderstanding of the class.

1. Already pointed out - bonus to AC-increasing spells is incredibly minor. +1 to +5 AC for a single spell - Shield. My build gets more AC bonuses (+2 to AC bonus from ANY AC-increasing spell) through a minor feature of Paragnostic Apostle.

2. Little point in making that abjuration swift as it's a long-term buff. Unless you managed to get it dispelled mid-combat (and you will, so long as your CL is less than your character level), but at that point do you really think the best option is starting to recast your buffs?

3. Finally, the class does not actually give you BAB. What it does is give you Caster Level equal to your BAB. Since your CL is already equal to your BAB (i.e. 9 by level 10), you get nothing.


From this point on, your caster level in a chosen arcane spellcasting class is equal to your base attack bonus (unless it would otherwise be higher). For example, a 7th-level fighter/1st-level wizard/5th-level abjurant champion has a base attack bonus of +12 (and thus a caster level of 12th). You can apply this benefit to only one arcane class to which you have added spellcasting levels by your advancement as an abjurant champion.

As you can see, if your CL is actually higher than your BAB, you get nothing.

Sure, you do get the better BAB progression. But since you're already progressing in Monk/Paladin, the bonus +2 to BAB you might have gotten is, as far as I can see, negated by the parallel BAB of the Gestalt and thus useless.

So yeah, it's pretty worthless. And makes you waste a feat.


I'm sorry, but that one combination means you are tossing acid damage with no save and no spell resistance...add in Cold sub, and you should be able to terminate anything that moves.

How much damage output are we talking here, anyway? Esp. in relation to the big baddies you're going to face? Assuming you've made the ranged touch attack (which is definitely not a given), Vitriolic Sphere does 6d6 (average 21) damage in the first round, and 21 damage on 2 subsequent rounds. Suppose you've quickened it, that's 42 damage. To one target. Well, you go on from here.


80 HD of undead? An Incantatrix cohort? 1. Assuming this is the same DM that was such a stickler about 1600 xp, you will NOT get the first two.


Why is that? The Undead are most clearly allowed, it's the entire point of Animate Dead. The cohort is attracted through leadership, which allows the player to attract cohorts of specific race, class and alignment.


2. Your build has some gaping holes in it's defenses.

It's not an impregnable fortress. Moreover, it's not intended as one, since this here is just a very quick approximation. In a real game, the spells/items involved would provide additional protection and edge.


See, from my point of view, you have to remember that this is D&D - there is always someone walking around with access to a bigger stick than you have.

Yeah, sure, it's all relative. But it's no reason to walk around with a smaller stick. And the capabilities of my build are not exhausted by what's on table.


You will get hit.

With AC 65 and 50% miss chance? Okay, why not. I have 152 hp to fall back on.


You will fail saves.

With Will and Fortitude BOTH being class high? With a through-the-roof Wisdom? With 31 CON from Persistent Polymorph + enhancement? With all the Cleric spells, and Wizard spells from cohort & minions?.. Sure, why not. There are many 100% defenses against SoDs and SoSs. E.g.: Death Ward. Or: Mind blank.


You will take damage.

152 hp? Full-class cleric with >20 CL? Can you say Heal?


You must have ways to mitigate the amount of damage you are going to take, and survive what's left over, and fix it after the fact.

Again, full-class cleric with >20 CL. And I am not even going into particular strategies of damage mitigation (which are plentiful).


Your AC and your saves are, frankly, bad. Your HD are terrible.

I see you are purposefully not counting Polymorph, Cleric buffs (with PA armor bonus), other Cleric spells, Cohort assistance, and tons of meatshields. That is not a reasonable way to look at a character. Not at all.


A wand of cure light wounds or Lesser Vigor is inherently superior to a potion of selfsame spells. A staff of healing, or a wand of vigor, is even better still.

Can't those items be used by any character with UMD?


What is the point of Warlock in this build? Think MACRO.
1. Eldritch blast. Sure, it isn't going to work against big bads.
But it is extremely effective against swarms of minions, which becomes a VERY common tactic for DMs to use against high level casters. Usually in an attempt to wipe out their higher level spells before putting them against a big bad.

Why would a high-level caster need to bother himself with swarms of minions? Scrying, Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport etc etc etc... if you absolutely MUST kill the rabble, either let your own minions do it, or Circle of Death/Blasphemy...

Hell, what am I saying, you get Warlock 3 at 17th, i.e. for a pure caster you already have Astral Projection. Rabble? What rabble?

No seriously, for a 17th level caster to use a 2d6 ranged touch attack... as a major class feature... sorry, can't wrap my mind around it.


Being able to zap things ALL DAY LONG with no expenditure of spell slots is a good thing.

OR, you can order your weakest minions do the same thing only better.


Plus, it allows you to try and mitigate the other anti-caster favorite: Time crunches. Periods of time when the caster just cannot get his eight hours rest, due to external pressures imposed by the DM.

Heward’s Bedroll (Complete Arcane) - a 3K gp item that lets you regain spells in 1 hour. Or Mordenkainen's Sanctum, Mansion, Rope Trick etc etc etc. Anyway, I keep that Undead horde around. A few Giants, Dragons and Demons to keep me safe.


2. Invocations.
Yeah, Buffing your ref save could be nice here, but in actual fact, I was thinking of Darkness, Devil's Sight, Summon Swarm and Fell Flight.

So for your highest levels, you take a class with abilities that duplicate low-level spells. No, surely it's fun to be able to cast them all day long.


Darkness & Devil's Sight is useful against opponents who cannot see in magical darkness - it preserves SPD by allowing you to not spend 4th level spells on GI until you REALLY need it.

By level 17, you'll have items with constant True Seeing. Which is far better since it also spots invisible opponents.
And my build already has Persistent Displacement with a caster level that's quite hard to overcome.


Spider Swarms are immune to normal damage, and dish out 1d6 a round to up to four squares.

1d6 damage per round? At level 17? You're going to be wasting your actions doing this?


Fell Flight, of course, is a free, all day, fly.

So is Persistent Fly. Or, even better, Overland Flight. But again, why would a 17th level caster bother with this?


As you can see - everything I do in the build has a purpose relating back to the core idea: rays & arcane casting, and generating a way to whack people without getting whacked.

Yes, as I said, it's an imaginative build. Now that you've explained it better, the interaction of abilities is more clear, and I can see that you've indeed tried to focus on some key powers. However, I stand by my opinion that you try going several ways at once and end up progressing very little. The fact that you're using very minor abilities when you're almost epic level is further proof to that. The non-gestalt build I offered gives more power in terms of rays, other offensive magic, melee, survivability, meatshielding, damage mitigation etc.

But it's an interesting discussion.

monty
2009-03-09, 09:28 PM
Wait, there are people who actually use the multiclass penalties?

ravenkith
2009-03-10, 12:14 AM
Seriously.

Quicken is +4.

Again, it's a cool spell for sorcerors. It doesn't do anything for wizards or other non-spontaneous casters.

Yep, same one. Name's RAW.


Ok, so your DM's a ****, you're spending 4 (+2 for split ray) for quickened ray spells, you're forgetting that you can 'delay spell', and that DM > text.



Honestly, do you even read what I'm writing here? Share Spells? Polymorph? Squishy familiar => 29 STR, 27 CON, 112 hp Cave Troll at level 9? Fly, Displacement, Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image - etc. etc. - FOR FREE on the familiar? He'll be a veritable juggernaut. And Imbue with spell ability - you get TWICE the number of actions per round FREE, this beats Quicken or Celerity hands down.


Honestly do YOU bother to read what I'm writing? 1) you cannot count on polymorph working the way you want it to and 2) HALF YOUR HP BASE.

Assuming you roll even 3/4 of your HD, you're clocking in at 47 base HP. Which means your familiar has 24 HP at level 10 (not counting HP derived from con).

One good fart in his general direction, and he's a dead stick, mate.



A complete miss.

So at CL 20 (easily achievable by character level 10 via Consumption Field) you can transfer six spells of 5th level or lower to your familiar, for a singe casting of this 6th level spell. That's like six free Quickened Spells - but better, because it doesnt eat your own swift actions and allows much greater flexibility (the familiar can cast them in any order, at any target, and from a different location).


Not really: I farted and he died. Those six spells? Gone. Mind you it IS better than I had initially thought. <shrug>



If the enemy is wasting his actions trying to kill your familiar (which has the same saving throws and buffs/protections as you have), that means he is not trying to kill you. Which is good! If he manages to succeed in killing the familiar, that means he would have succeeded in killing you, and in this case - better dead familiar than dead you, right?


With your crappy reflex save 1 fireball and it's all over. Heck, if you're standing close enough, You're both dead.



You could have bought a Periapt of Wisdom with that Headband of Charisma. And had the same AC bonus + more/better cleric spellcasting. You've just sold a feat "for the low cost of just 1 item".


So I can buy TWO items, and improve the secondary casting I don't really care much about as well as my ac and primary casting. Or I can buy 1 item and improve my ac and primary casting. Huh. I wonder why *I* didn't think of that?

Maybe it might have something to do with not having the extra 36000gp?



Yes, it IS free metamagic, which is what I said the first time. I also said that you still get to pay for a) the first application of the metamagic, b) for all other elements of the combo (say, reach + split). You're still paying dearly for that ray metamagic, whereas my build gets it for free.


TANSTAAFL. Your build uses feats and levels to gain it's power too, right? Oh, and it's NOT free. You're just paying for it in a different way.



OK, I see your point now.

Too bad Arcane Thesis is not even in your 10-level build.


Hence why I said it would take til level 12 to get full power...is this something you may have missed, or are you ignoring it on purpose...?



There are ways to make it divine damage, which is unresistable.


Are you using them in your build? No? then why even mention them?



OK, point taken. I'm not a fan of Evocation, so some of its subtleties might elude me.


Holy crap! you conceded a point!



Incantatrix has only 1 useless feat (Iron Will), because she would've taken metamagic anyway. 1 school is no pain for a Diviner. And I wouldn't touch the Initiate with a 7-foot polearm - the only thing he's good is being a minion. It's a matter of taste, though.


I used them as examples because according to the various char-op boards, these are considered 'very good' or 'must have' PrCs. I personally don't much like IOTSV either.



1. Already pointed out - bonus to AC-increasing spells is incredibly minor. +1 to +5 AC for a single spell - Shield. My build gets more AC bonuses (+2 to AC bonus from ANY AC-increasing spell) through a minor feature of Paragnostic Apostle.


Do the bonuses stack? I got the impression that they wouldn't. <Checks> Yeah, that's a one time +2 bonus pal, as it's tacked onto an armor bonus, of which a character can only have ONE of. So you take your +7 magic vestment, I'll take my +9 shield, thanks.



2. Little point in making that abjuration swift as it's a long-term buff. Unless you managed to get it dispelled mid-combat (and you will, so long as your CL is less than your character level), but at that point do you really think the best option is starting to recast your buffs?


Uh...Shield, in particular, is a minute/lvl buff. Being able to throw it up as a swift action means it's something you can do very cheaply to make yourself instantly harder to hurt in a significant way.

You CANNOT walk around with it up all day. You have to cast it during a fight to get any real benefit.



3. Finally, the class does not actually give you BAB. What it does is give you Caster Level equal to your BAB. Since your CL is already equal to your BAB (i.e. 9 by level 10), you get nothing.

As you can see, if your CL is actually higher than your BAB, you get nothing.


WTF? You get 5 points of base attack bonus for the five levels you take.

I have CL 19 in the build over 20 levels.

These are two completely unrelated things.



Sure, you do get the better BAB progression. But since you're already progressing in Monk/Paladin, the bonus +2 to BAB you might have gotten is, as far as I can see, negated by the parallel BAB of the Gestalt and thus useless.

So yeah, it's pretty worthless. And makes you waste a feat.


Do the math again: 3/4 does not = 1/1 BAB.



How much damage output are we talking here, anyway? Esp. in relation to the big baddies you're going to face? Assuming you've made the ranged touch attack (which is definitely not a given),


What's my bab again? Armor? NA? A quick sampling of critters from the MM yields most touch acs between 9 and 16.

With a +9 BAB @ level 10, add 2 dex...well that's a +11. At 10th.

A balor has touch ac 16 (CR 20).

A dragon has touch ac of 6 (cr 20).

Oh, and by 20th level, that'll actually be a +19 to hit, even if you don't do anything to increase your dex.

So it's pretty much a given especially if you include Divine Favor or True Strike.



Vitriolic Sphere does 6d6 (average 21) damage in the first round, and 21 damage on 2 subsequent rounds. Suppose you've quickened it, that's 42 damage. To one target. Well, you go on from here.


Ok:
1: Vitriolic Spell
2: Use Spellwarp Sniper to make it a ray
3: Use the Metamagic Rod of Maximize (normal) we bought with that 36k we didn't spend on a wisdom buffer, plus a little more.
4: Split the ray (at a cost of +1, thanks to arcane thesis).
3: Deal 12d6 (72) + 12d6 (72) +12d6 (72) over three rounds for the cost of 1 6th level spell. 216 points of damage over three rounds that the bad guy gets no save and no spell resistance on, all for the cost of one disintegrate spell.
5: Watch the dragon/balor/whatever try to concentrate at a difficulty of 46.

In most cases, this will deny your opponent access to any spells, spell like abilities, or psionics they have access to.

If you have arcane spellsurge going, this takes 1 Standard Action. In theory, you could cast this twice (Once as swift, once as standard), use an immediate action for wings of cover, and bust a hide check as part of your remaining move action and just wait for the target to die. (432 pts of damage is enough to kill anything but a wyrm or a great wyrm.

Note: I haven't specified RED dragon, because if that was the case, I'd just switch it all to cold instead of acid and get double damage off of that.

Of course, I haven't bothered including SA here, since it has shrunk to negligible proportions (4d6 with rays).

...and I haven't calculated what can be done with the full power of the build here.



Why is that? The Undead are most clearly allowed, it's the entire point of Animate Dead. The cohort is attracted through leadership, which allows the player to attract cohorts of specific race, class and alignment.


It's cheap and cheesy. On both accounts. Oh and undead = evil.



It's not an impregnable fortress. Moreover, it's not intended as one, since this here is just a very quick approximation. In a real game, the spells/items involved would provide additional protection and edge.


Yeah, my build gets access to those same spells. Only it's got a better base to work on.



Yeah, sure, it's all relative. But it's no reason to walk around with a smaller stick. And the capabilities of my build are not exhausted by what's on table.


My point was: your defensive capabilities suck. You need to address this in your build. Unless you are at least on par with a Monk's saves, and have HD averaging a d8, you are shopping for trouble.



With AC 65 and 50% miss chance? Okay, why not. I have 152 hp to fall back on.


Not at level 10 you don't. LOL. Didn't you read the errata on polymorph? Sucker!



With Will and Fortitude BOTH being class high? With a through-the-roof Wisdom? With 31 CON from Persistent Polymorph + enhancement? With all the Cleric spells, and Wizard spells from cohort & minions?.. Sure, why not. There are many 100% defenses against SoDs and SoSs. E.g.: Death Ward. Or: Mind blank.


None of the above deals with the problem: Your reflex save sucks ass.



152 hp? Full-class cleric with >20 CL? Can you say Heal?


Weren't you the one complaining about wasted actions? And when did we go from level 10 to level 20?

Oh, and can you say 216 HP in one round? From one spell? No save, No spell resistance, and with a permanent true seeing, no chance to miss!



I see you are purposefully not counting Polymorph, Cleric buffs (with PA armor bonus), other Cleric spells, Cohort assistance, and tons of meatshields. That is not a reasonable way to look at a character. Not at all.


I can turn invisible. I can fly. I have true seeing. I can be sneaky. Your meatshields, cohorts and buffs do not matter if I am targeting you with a spell that can kill you in one shot.



Can't those items be used by any character with UMD?


Yes. I pointed that out, as you can check up on quite easily. However, That takes skill points and a good roll.



Why would a high-level caster need to bother himself with swarms of minions? Scrying, Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport etc etc etc... if you absolutely MUST kill the rabble, either let your own minions do it, or Circle of Death/Blasphemy...

Hell, what am I saying, you get Warlock 3 at 17th, i.e. for a pure caster you already have Astral Projection. Rabble? What rabble?

No seriously, for a 17th level caster to use a 2d6 ranged touch attack... as a major class feature... sorry, can't wrap my mind around it.

OR, you can order your weakest minions do the same thing only better.


It's a 6d6 touch attack, thanks to the virtue that it is a ray, and you will be using Darkness and Devil's Sight in order to get SA.

...and you can do this all day. WITHOUT wasting high level spells.

And you can still deliver a punch even if you somehow run out of spell components or get 'em stolen, or whatever.



Heward’s Bedroll (Complete Arcane) - a 3K gp item that lets you regain spells in 1 hour. Or Mordenkainen's Sanctum, Mansion, Rope Trick etc etc etc. Anyway, I keep that Undead horde around. A few Giants, Dragons and Demons to keep me safe.


If you are this good at optimizing and constructing logical arguments, you really ought to know by now that if the DM wants you not to get your spells back - YOU AIN'T GETTING THEM BACK.



So for your highest levels, you take a class with abilities that duplicate low-level spells. No, surely it's fun to be able to cast them all day long.


You seem to think I am giving something up in order to get these additional abilities.....? While I am picking these additional capabilities up, I am still progressing caster levels in Sorceror. I never lose a thing - everything I've added on is just that - an additional capability. Above and beyond my arcane casting.



By level 17, you'll have items with constant True Seeing. Which is far better since it also spots invisible opponents.
And my build already has Persistent Displacement with a caster level that's quite hard to overcome.

Yes, I think I may have mentioned true seeing...

and you are forgetting that this is an ANTI MOOK strategy.

True seeing works regardless of caster level. Your displacement doesn't work anymore.

Where's your AC now?



1d6 damage per round? At level 17? You're going to be wasting your actions doing this?

So is Persistent Fly. Or, even better, Overland Flight. But again, why would a 17th level caster bother with this?

Yes, as I said, it's an imaginative build. Now that you've explained it better, the interaction of abilities is more clear, and I can see that you've indeed tried to focus on some key powers. However, I stand by my opinion that you try going several ways at once and end up progressing very little. The fact that you're using very minor abilities when you're almost epic level is further proof to that. The non-gestalt build I offered gives more power in terms of rays, other offensive magic, melee, survivability, meatshielding, damage mitigation etc.

But it's an interesting discussion.

It's very simple, really.

If you've ever played at high level - and I mean, really played - DMs tend to start getting desperate.

It's the same problem the Bond films had - there are only so many cooler gadgets out there to be made to wow the audience.

So when a DM goes shopping for a challenge, he has to take the caster's ability to one shot or crip things into account.

There are two very, very simple ways (very commonly used) to mitigate the caster's abilities:
1) Flood the group with mooks in an attempt to make the caster burn spells off until he's at a level the DM can deal with
-OR-
2) Run the group ragged until the caster is out of spells, and just don't give him a chance to get them back.

Combine for maximum effect.

Finally, you have to take into account that in this party of two, the only other player is going to be a tanker, with a half ton of hitpoints and the ability to just soldier on. When there are just two of you, having to stop to rest every 15 minutes so the caster can get his spells back gets old fast.

Wckd
2009-03-10, 07:32 AM
Druid 10/Wiz 10
Be sure to get natural spell, and use some of the druid spell slots for healing!

But really Druid 10 / anthing else 10 would work great! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: :smallredface: Forgot to comment on stats!
Wisdom + Intelligence is pretty much what you need for the Druid-wiz. Age modifiers can provide a good boost!

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-10, 12:19 PM
First off, Shield is rounds/level, even shorter than mins/level, which makes it one of the few spells worth dipping AbChamp for... assuming every opponent is going to be throwing nothing but magic missiles at you, because even 9 AC is rather pointless to a caster who has access to unlimited Invisibility and Fly.

However, one point to bring up:

It's a 6d6 touch attack, thanks to the virtue that it is a ray, and you will be using Darkness and Devil's Sight in order to get SA.

...and you can do this all day. WITHOUT wasting high level spells.
Wrong.

Darkness grants CONCEALMENT, it does NOT make them FLAT-FOOTED, thus it does NOT grant sneak attack. Darkness grants a 20% miss chance, it does not make them unable to see you. This is a common misconception.

Also, relying on sneak attack has several problems, which you have to solve:

1) Critters immune to precision-based damage. Undead and Constructs are the two big things here, but also Oozes and Plants. Now, a dedicated precision-damage dealer has things like Wand of Gravebane/Golembane to offset this, however you have no capability of being able to use it while still using your normal equipment (remember, it takes actions to pull a wand)

2) Class features that negate the conditions to apply precision-based damage. See also: Barbarian and Improved Uncanny Dodge. Go ahead and get initiative on me, I still get my Dex bonus to AC, thus you don't get sneak attack dice. Go ahead and try to flank me, you can't unless you are a Rogue four levels higher than I am, so no sneak attack dice for you. There are solutions for these, but you don't have the space in your build to be able to incorporate them.

Because generally when you start abusing precision-based damage, either you run into a stream of things immune to it, or you end up running into a bunch of things with five levels of Barbarian.

ravenkith
2009-03-10, 12:35 PM
Wrong.

Darkness grants CONCEALMENT, it does NOT make them FLAT-FOOTED, thus it does NOT grant sneak attack. Darkness grants a 20% miss chance, it does not make them unable to see you. This is a common misconception.


Darkness grants concealement which grants the ability to make hide checks at any time.

Move action: Hide
Standard Action: ZAP!
= 2d6 base + 4d6 SA



Also, relying on sneak attack has several problems, which you have to solve:

1) Critters immune to precision-based damage. Undead and Constructs are the two big things here, but also Oozes and Plants. Now, a dedicated precision-damage dealer has things like Wand of Gravebane/Golembane to offset this, however you have no capability of being able to use it while still using your normal equipment (remember, it takes actions to pull a wand)

2) Class features that negate the conditions to apply precision-based damage. See also: Barbarian and Improved Uncanny Dodge. Go ahead and get initiative on me, I still get my Dex bonus to AC, thus you don't get sneak attack dice. Go ahead and try to flank me, you can't unless you are a Rogue four levels higher than I am, so no sneak attack dice for you. There are solutions for these, but you don't have the space in your build to be able to incorporate them.

Because generally when you start abusing precision-based damage, either you run into a stream of things immune to it, or you end up running into a bunch of things with five levels of Barbarian.

Note: this is an anti mook strategy, not something 'I am relying on'. This is something you use whenever you can in order to avoid having to use more valuable daily spell slots.

You really shouldn't try to make it sound like this is the only arrow in my quiver.

Hell, if Warlock and ED really offend you this much, go ahead and replace them with straight cleric <shrug>.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-10, 12:55 PM
Darkness grants concealement which grants the ability to make hide checks at any time.

Move action: Hide
Standard Action: ZAP!
= 2d6 base + 4d6 SA Assuming you have a sufficient Hide check, it is a pleasant alternative to HiPS




Note: this is an anti mook strategy, not something 'I am relying on'. This is something you use whenever you can in order to avoid having to use more valuable daily spell slots.

You really shouldn't try to make it sound like this is the only arrow in my quiver.

Hell, if Warlock and ED really offend you this much, go ahead and replace them with straight cleric <shrug>.

Yes, but if your GM is wanting you to burn stuff, you are going to find that all the mooks are immune to your precision-based damage. Two levels of Barbarian negates it entirely, and can be slapped on any sentient being without a major CR modifier. A swarm of Orcish Barbarians is entirely in character, and doesn't loose dex bonus to AC.

Besides, this role is better played by a meat shield. Haste up your meat shield and send HIM into the fray, then stand back and watch him gib everything.

only1doug
2009-03-10, 03:08 PM
First off, Shield is rounds/level, even shorter than mins/level, which makes it one of the few spells worth dipping AbChamp for... assuming every opponent is going to be throwing nothing but magic missiles at you, because even 9 AC is rather pointless to a caster who has access to unlimited Invisibility and Fly.



First off: Shield is 1 Min/Lvl rather than 1 Rnd/Lvl. check the SRD or PHB.

Secondly AbChamp is still worth doing for the double duration on ALL Abjuration spells.

Thirdly Dipping AbChamp doesn't give much AC bonus, you only get +1 AC / caster level.

Fourthly if the enemy is throwing only magic missiles then AbChamp shield is no better than a normal shield spell which will grant complete immunity (except to Force Missile Mage)

Fifthly If your GM will allow parrying shield feat to apply to the shield spell you can get your shield bonus to your touch AC. (and then a +9 is very nice)

Falling Out
2009-03-10, 03:39 PM
Wizard(conjurer variant)/Master Specialist (conjurer) // Cleric (summon domain single focus) / Malconvoker

Summons let you fill any role needed.

My wife is playing toward this in a gestalt game and loves the versatility. Throw on the race HellBorn and some of the HoTA/HotNH monster summon swaps for one fun time.

Undead Prince
2009-03-10, 09:13 PM
All right, let’s take care of this first.


Didn't you read the errata on polymorph? Sucker!

Polymorph is not errataed.

Read that again, slowly. It is not.

Now go to Wizards.com, download and read the latest errata for the PHB. Here, I’ll give you a link (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/PHBErrata02062006.zip). Read it through, paying attention. May want to take a look at the SRD for good measure.

All done? Good.

Next, open your PHB 2 at page 96, and carefully read the lines under the heading “Spells that have Come Before”:

“For the purposes of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells’ existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter Self, for instance, does not change the target’s ability scores (unlike normal for the polymorph subschool)”.

Now, suggest me a name for yourself. Of the debasing variety, such as you favour and, by all means, deserve.

I don’t care in what homebrewery you engage with your DM. I work by RAW, and it has spoken.

However, your childish remarks aside, any gaming group is free to use the PHB 2’s “polymorph subschool” rules for their Polymorph. It’s not RAW, but you can houserule it. Nonetheless, you have no business walking around claiming that Polymorph was officially errataed into a hideously gutted version of itself.


your DM's a ****

It’s not “my DM”. It’s the RULES that IMPOSE XP PENALTIES and DEMAND that new characters over level 1 take these penalties into account. I have quoted the DMG for you. Why do you continue to insist it is my DM’s whim?


you're spending 4 (+2 for split ray) for quickened ray spells

Quicken is free, from the Cohort. Learn to read.


HALF YOUR HP BASE. Assuming you roll even 3/4 of your HD, you're clocking in at 47 base HP. Which means your familiar has 24 HP at level 10 (not counting HP derived from con).

The fact that the familiar’s HP are lower than yours is irrelevant because he gets such a huge boost to HP, AC and defenses from Polymorph and other spells which you have cast on yourself. Since for purposes of effects related to hit dice the master’s character level is used, the maximum level Polymorph that master can cast on himself will also affect the familiar. The Polymorphed familiar will have only 10-20% less HP than your Polymorphed self; if the enemy manages to kill it, that means you probably would’ve been killed as well. And it’s better to lose a familiar than your life.

However, the familiar’s task is not meleeing; he is very well protected by spells, armor (proficiency from creature he Polymorphed to), natural armor (again, Polymorph) etc., and is also covered by your meatshield minions. From this relative safety he casts the spells you’ve imbued him with, using your caster level, thereby effectively doubling your number of actions per round. Six spells of 5th level or lower are a great asset in any one encounter, after which you can cast Imbue Familiar again and refreshen his repertoire.


One good fart in his general direction, and he's a dead stick, mate.

Right. All those spell protections, all the HP and natural armor boosts from Polymorph, the ability to wear armor, the meat shield minions – this is all nothing compared to the eldritch power of your fart 8=))

Seriously though, in terms of defense the familiar is effectively a fighter (armor) with monstrous stats and huge HP pool (Polymorph), protected like a high-level Wizard (all those spells you cast on yourself), plus covered by meat shield horde.

A Dispel Magic can potentially ruin him, but the caster level of the spells is so high the dispeller would have to be of a significantly higher level than the master in order to at least have a chance.

AMF/Disjunction can ruin him for certain, but we are talking 10th level here. At higher levels, there will be different strats altogether.



With your crappy reflex save 1 fireball and it's all over. Heck, if you're standing close enough, You're both dead.

A fireball does 35 average Fire damage. Due to Persistent Polymorph, both the wizard and the familiar have well over 100 HP at level 10. I won’t even go into various magic protections, just name the most obvious. Protection from Energy, a level 3 spell that will last 200 minutes at character level 10 w/Consumption Field, and absorbs 120 points of damage from one of the elements. Why do you think the Wizard will be walking without something like this up? And remember, his familiar gets the same protections for free. So, they can each shrug off 3 of your fireballs due to this spell alone. Another 3 due to Polymorph. That’s what, six attacks already? You think you (the fireballer) are not dead/paralysed/dominated by this time?

Just to reiterate, your assumption that a 10th or higher level wizard is just going to stay there naked and eat fireballs is laughable.


So I can buy TWO items, and improve the secondary casting I don't really care much about

You’ve wasted three levels on this secondary casting. Now you don’t care about it? Weird. But supports my "jack-of-all-trades" theory.


Or I can buy 1 item and improve my ac and primary casting. Huh. I wonder why *I* didn't think of that? Maybe it might have something to do with not having the extra 36000gp?

I thought 36000 gp was “low cost” for you? And yet, you’ve sold a feat for this “low price”. No, wait, you sold the feat much cheaper than that – count also the +3 to Will saves and bonus cleric spells from +6 WIS that you’ve lost by not taking the Periapt.

To reiterate, if the item is “low cost” for you, it’s not worth wasting a feat. Even if it’s “high cost” for now, better still not waste a feat, as in just a few levels you’ll probably afford the item easily (as is the case with Periapt of Wisdom), and the feat is lost for good (unless your DM allows retraining, which opens doors for all sorts of exploits).


Your build uses feats and levels to gain it's power too, right? Oh, and it's NOT free. You're just paying for it in a different way.

I’m paying for it in Rebuking attempts, of which I have plenty, and also get a 50% discount from using Necromancy + Slaymate.



Hence why I said it would take til level 12 to get full power...is this something you may have missed, or are you ignoring it on purpose...?

The challenge is level 10, and I will thus keep returning to that.


Are you using them in your build? No? then why even mention them?

To show you that there IS a way of making your Evocation spells do unresistable damage. And it’s pretty cheap, too.


Do the bonuses stack? I got the impression that they wouldn't. <Checks> Yeah, that's a one time +2 bonus pal, as it's tacked onto an armor bonus, of which a character can only have ONE of.

I stand corrected. +2 it is. Still, didn’t have to pay a feat for it.


WTF? You get 5 points of base attack bonus for the five levels you take.

No, you don’t. Remember, Gestalt.

7: Ninja 1//Abjurant Champion 1
13: Cleric 3//Abjurant Champion 2
14: Warlock 1//Abjurant Champion 3
16: Warlock 2//Abjurant Champion 4
17: Warlock 3//Abjurant Champion 5

Of the five levels in Ab.Ch., only 2 actually give you more BAB – the other 3 were negated by BAB from Cleric and Warlock respectively. So all you get from Ab.Ch. is +2 BAB, that’s it.

It would be completely nullified (+0 BAB) if you count BAB by character (i.e. by Gestalt “halves”), and not by level (which is, I guess, not technically correct after re-reading Gestalt rules; the bonuses which are not “special abilities” are added per level).

Oh, BTW - I’ve just realized Ninja is a base class 8=)) You get an XP penalty AGAIN. Seriously, how far behind the rest of the group do you intend to fall?



Oh, and by 20th level, that'll actually be a +19 to hit, even if you don't do anything to increase your dex.

Why don't you go epic already? Again, 10th level build.


Ok:
1: Vitriolic Spell

You don’t get it till level 11. What are you using at the challenge’s level 10?


2: Use Spellwarp Sniper to make it a ray
3: Use the Metamagic Rod of Maximize (normal) we bought with that 36k we didn't spend on a wisdom buffer, plus a little more.

This Rod costs 54000 gp. At level 10 your entire wealth is 46000 gp. And you were buying a +6 Charisma headband for 36000. Assuming you don’t buy anything else, you may get the Rod by 13th level. And it’s only useable 3/day.


4: Split the ray (at a cost of +1, thanks to arcane thesis).

You will only be able to cast 6th level spells at character level 13.


3: Deal 12d6 (72) + 12d6 (72) +12d6 (72) over three rounds for the cost of 1 6th level spell. 216 points of damage over three rounds that the bad guy gets no save and no spell resistance on, all for the cost of one disintegrate spell…

AND the Metamagic Rod. Which you can in no way afford by lvl 10, and which allows you to use Maximise only 3 times per day.


5: Watch the dragon/balor/whatever try to concentrate at a difficulty of 46.

Balor, you say? Let’s see…

20d8+200 (290 hp) Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 28, true seeing
Full attack: +1 vorpal longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (2d6+13/19-20) and +1 flaming whip +30/+25 melee (1d4+6 plus 1d6 fire plus entangle)
Initiative: +11
Skills:
Concentration +33
Hide +26
Listen +38
Move Silently +30
Spot +38


You were saying that this build can defeat ECL+5 encounters. Mr B is CR 20, so let's say you're level 15. At this level, you can afford the Rod and the +6 Charisma item (however, these two items alone eat exactly half of your total wealth). Fortunately, level 15 is the first level you can actually cast Spellsurge, so let's include it into the calc.

Now, first question - how do you two begin the encounter? If you don't have True Seeing up, and instead relied on your Devil's Sight + See the Unseen, you will fail if the Balor hides. Spot the Balor? He's got +26 Hide and +30 Move Silently, while you have at most 18 ranks in both (assuming you've maxed the skills) and only +1 from 13 WIS (since you didn't buy the Wis item), which lands you at +19 vs. +26 and +30. You would probably fail to spot the Balor.

Would you able to hide from the Balor? Assuming a +4 Dex item and maxed Hide + Move Silently (although, where would you get so many skillpoints?) you might have a +22 Hide/MS check. Vs. the Balor's +38 Spot. And, oh, continuous True Seeing. Fail again. So, the Balor has a Surprise round on you.

OK then, suppose you're smarter than that and used the spell True Seeing instead of the weak Warlock invocations. -1 sixth level slot out of the 6 you have (assuming INT 21 +6 item). Basically, you and the Balor notice each other at the same time. You roll for initiative.

You: Initiative bonus +4 (Dex 14 +4 item).
Balor: Initiative +11.

Hmm. Balor wins with a 85% probability.

He uses Power Word, Stun. As you have probably have between 50 and 100 hp (even counting a +4 CON item), you are stunned for 2d4 rounds. Even if for some reason you have >100 hp (but less than 150), still stunned for 1d4 rounds.

Balor has his way with the char (+31 attacks vs. AC 36).

Even if he loses initiative, you only do 2x62 = 124 damage in the first round, less than half of his HP. He responds with Stun and Summon Tanar'ri (automatic success), or move (90ft Fly) + Attack + Full Attack, or two Implosions + two quickened Telekinesis, or two Fire Storms + two quickened Telekinesis. Even if you eventually kill him with residual damage (and he'll automatically succeed on Concentration checks with his +33 vs. DC 31), you're still screwed. If he has healing potions, he just teleports away and heals.

Going against a dragon will probably be worse, as he'll be a capable sorcerer.


...and I haven't calculated what can be done with the full power of the build here.

And neither have I with mine. It's a purely abstract exercise.


It's cheap and cheesy. On both accounts.

LOL. In that case, Spellwarping a Vitriolic Sphere is also cheap and cheesy, because it gives you a no-SR, no saving throw damage with an easy ranged touch attack. I thought you were proud of that, though. Serious logic confusion on your part.


Oh and undead = evil.

Yes. Yes, they are. Your point?


Yeah, my build gets access to those same spells. Only it's got a better base to work on.

Same spells? You’ve got 3 levels of cleric, and no way of persistifying spells. How is that “same”? And Eldritch Disciple is out due to Gestalt rules. More houseruling?


Unless you are at least on par with a Monk's saves, and have HD averaging a d8, you are shopping for trouble.

Oh, LOL. Monk’s saves? D8 HD?
*sigh* okay. Let’s do some math.
Base at level 10: Fort +7 Ref +3 Will +7
Counting stats: Fort +17 (CON 31) Ref +4 Will +15 (WIS 28)
That's Naked (only Polymorph). At level 10.
And a lot has been said about HP already. 152.

Weak Reflex save? As if I care. There’s not much benefit in Reflex unless you've got the Uncanny Dodge line, anyway.

And versus evocations, I might just stock up on Protections from Energy 8=)


Weren't you the one complaining about wasted actions?

It’s one thing to waste action on a Cure Moderate Wounds at Caster Level 3 to cure 12 points of damage (yep, that’s all you can do, having wasted 3 levels on Cleric). It’s another to cast Heal at CL 20 and cure 150 points of damage.


And when did we go from level 10 to level 20?

So what were you doing when other people learned to read? Persistent Consumptive Field.


Oh, and can you say 216 HP in one round? From one spell?

No, and neither can you. It's either 216 hp in three rounds from one spell, or 144 hp in 1 round from two spells.


with a permanent true seeing

Permanent true seeing? You mean Devil's Sight + See the Unseen? It's NOT True Seeing. It only sees through magical darkness and invisibility, and is easily defeated by Ethereal Jaunt OR Hide. You see, the low-level abilities you acquire by character level >15 are entirely outclassed.


no chance to miss!

No chance to miss? Ranged touch attack roll? Vs targets that can be high Dex, or wear items/cast spells for Deflection bonuses, or have natural concealment? Or, say, Moment of Prescience from a scroll, Extended for free by the Cohort to last two days? Never surprised, +25 insight bonus to AC against one attack. +5 Deflection AC from Shield of Faith (or item). +1 Dex (Polymorph). +1 Dodge (Haste). Total: 42 Touch AC. All of a sudden, your ray attack is not so successful.

Or it can be something exceedingly simple. Like Obscuring Snow (frostburn), a 2nd level spell that lasts 1hr/level and creates a snowy 30ft radius emanation around the caster, which always follows him and grants total concealment to everyone in area (50% miss chance, can't use sight to locate the concealed target). Not pierced by see invisibility (is conjuration, not illusion). Sorry, any ranged touch attacks right out. Have to waste actions/blow cover to deal with the snow first. And the spell can easily be cast by the cohort's familiar, so no telling who and where might be inside.

Or something simpler still. A few minions with tower shields, providing total cover. No ranged touch attacks for you (rays are effects, and not targeted spells, so get foiled by tower shields).

And again, it’s not just “one spell”. You’re using your Metamagic Rod, which can be used only 3/day.


I can turn invisible.

True seeing. Permanised (or on an item).


I can fly.

So can everyone else. And Greater Teleport.


I have true seeing.

You don't, unless you use the 6th level spell. Otherwise, Ethereal Jaunt. Or hide. Or conjure mist.


I can be sneaky.

Spot. Scent. Tremorsense. Yeah, proper undead retain all this.


Your meatshields, cohorts and buffs do not matter

Not if they spot you first and roll higher Initiative. With their high Spots, True Seeing on myself, the Cohort, the Cohort’s familiar, and who knows how many undead spellcasters, and your low Dex (14) it's an entirely open question whether you will even have first strike. And I'm not even talking about Divination precautions.


if I am targeting you with a spell that can kill you in one shot.

Can’t. 152 hp at level 10. And something as simple as Aid can add 14 hp on top of that. The most your 15th level character can do in 1 round, in the best conditions (Split Ray, Rod of Maximise, Spellsurge) is 144 damage. Assuming you've won Initiative against a horde of various creatures and at least two casters. Assuming you can even hit because of Moment of Prescience. Assuming I have nothing like Protection from Energy up. Assuming you manage to snipe through greater range. On my turn, everyone delays actions till Cohort casts Greater Teleport (scroll) on the entire horde, arriving around your char, then Reach Rapid Ghoul Glyph from the cleric (you know how that works, right?), then coup-de-grace. Takes only 1 round, uses one 2nd level spell from my char, and one expensive but affordable (and useful in all circumstances) scroll from the cohort.

Anyway, this is all moot. First, char vs. char battles are childish. Second, your char doesn’t have any threatening abilities at level 10 (beyond what you might possibly wring out of 9 levels of sorcerer).

Enough for today.

ravenkith
2009-03-11, 12:35 AM
Wall of text.

Polymorph: There are fifteen hundred versions of 'fix' homebrew or not, for this line of spells. Recommending relying upon it for anyone else's campaign is a bad idea: you just don't know how his DM is going to adjudicate it, so you shouldn't count on it as heavily as you are.

Also, it is, in and of itself, a total cheese move, as any DM will tell you.

I didn't bother to read the rest of your entry because:
a) You crossed the line from critiquing a build to being personally insulting in paragraph 2.

b) I didn't feel like it. You bore me now, go away.