So... V should-

[Zeitgeist]

-save the world.

Honestly, we don't know exactly what it will be like having the power V is getting. However, they claim he will have control over what he wants to do, so he should be able to make choices. I'm sure he won't spend the time studying a book.

I mean, with such an incredible amount of power, couldn't V kill the dragon, find and teleport to Haley. Teleport them and Roy's body to Durkon, teleport to Xykon, kill Redcloak and Xykon without even breaking a sweat?

Maybe I don't understand the mechanics, but I'm pretty sure this would put V's level well above 30?

Obviously, even if he can, he won't do that, because that would end the story. So much question is, why (in terms of V's personality) WOULDN'T V do that?

[kusje]

Obviously, even if he can, he won't do that, because that would end the story. So much question is, why (in terms of V's personality) WOULDN'T V do that?

He'll think that using the power for longer than he has to gives the fiends more control over his soul.

[Ladorak]

One can forgve even the most logical of us for being concerned only with rescueing our childrens souls. I imagine the rest will occur to h** afterward, but I don't see that happenig

[Zeitgeist]

Well, since they were vague with the duration, implying it could be quick, or could last quite some time, it seems like the only way to play on that would be for it to last abnormally long. I'm sure this is more than just long enough to save his children. I meant that, once he's done that, what will he do next?

[SPoD]

I mean, with such an incredible amount of power, couldn't V kill the dragon,

Probably.


find and teleport to Haley.

Definitely.


Teleport them and Roy's body to Durkon,

Yes.


teleport to Xykon,

Yes.


kill Redcloak and Xykon

NO.

Putting aside all the plot reasons why this would make a truly terrible story, Xykon + Redcloak + Tsukiko + The Freakin' Monster in the Darkness would still defeat Super-V, simply because V will only get two spells per round (one normal, one quickened). Team Evil could get as many as five spells (1 Xykon, 1 Redcloak, 1 Redcloak quickened, 1 Tsukiko, 1 Tsukiko quickened) and one MITD smackdown per turn.

Given that V will not be gaining epic saving throws or AC or hit points or feats along with his spells (much less lich resistances or healing magic), I would place my money on Xykon and Company.

The dragon, on the other hand, will be a more even fight, because as a sorcerer, the dragon cannot even take Quicken Spell. She's stuck with one action per turn compared to V's two spells.

[Zeitgeist]

I don't think you're accounting for as much power as you should. It's clear that V will be so high level that he won't be able to gain experience from ANYTHING. I'm sure that includes the dragon, Xykon, and probably the MitD.

He's not just getting a bunch of spells. He's also getting a temporary obscene boost in actual level, which includes all the things that come with higher levels, not the least of all some more hit points. And who knows how all this works, do all their stats just add together? In that case, it becomes pretty insanely skewed in V's favor.

I see no reason V couldn't win that fight. Storywise, not so good. But depending on how the splice business works, it's quite possible for V to be that powerful.

[Flickerdart]

What makes you think that V needs to face Team Evil in a fair fight? With his supercharged power, he could probably Epic Magic Cheese up a "Slay Xykon" spell with unlimited range. Or just chuck Azure City into the Snarl, Xykon and all. Tsukiko's CL would be too low to be any use, and Redcloak isn't Epic, and therefore will hardly be able to do anything. Against just a monster and a lich Sorcerer, V can win in a single round with a Quickened and a normal spell, then leave, provided he even needs to 'port in to start with. If he really felt like it, he could Greater Spell Mantle or Superior Invisibility himself or something beforehand, laugh as Redcloak and Tsukiko waste their turn and kill them too.

[kusje]

NO.


Well, he could easily teleport the whole OOTS there and solo Xykon while the rest of them fight team evil. The only problem will be MITD because we don't really know what he is and if V (or anyone) is strong enough to challenge him.

[Zeitgeist]

It seemed to be implied that even MitD wouldn't give V any experience, since it was said that V couldn't get XP.

[DoctorJest]

He'll think that using the power for longer than he has to gives the fiends more control over his soul.

But that won't stop him. Not for a second.
watch.

[Ancalagon]

I do not think V/Rich won't think of that himself. This V-situation is a very good reason to rattle the box a lot (unite the order again, do something with the goblins that just sit in Azure City, in general: Shake the status quo a bit) and so far Rich has been too good at storytelling for me to believe he'd let such a chance pass.

I'd not be surprised if the whole "V-situation" (with the children and such) was not more than a simple excuse to actually give V the power he needs to push the plot into a new direction. Rescuinig children, killing dragon? That's the obvious and simple path... but what comes then? I think that's going to be the REAL point why (plotvise) Vaarsivuius gets the power he gets.

[Ladorak]

Putting aside all the plot reasons why this would make a truly terrible story, Xykon + Redcloak + Tsukiko + The Freakin' Monster in the Darkness would still defeat Super-V, simply because V will only get two spells per round (one normal, one quickened). Team Evil could get as many as five spells (1 Xykon, 1 Redcloak, 1 Redcloak quickened, 1 Tsukiko, 1 Tsukiko quickened) and one MITD smackdown per turn.

Gotta disagree here, V's effective level has just topped 60, destroying the whole world just became a trival matter, hell killing some gods is not outside the realms of possibillity

[Dixieboy]

Gotta disagree here, V's effective level has just topped 60, destroying the whole world just became a trival matter, hell killing some gods is not outside the realms of possibillity
He's at the stage where he can aim magic missile at the darkness and kill Shar+Vecna+Lolth :smallbiggrin:

[DigoDragon]

I mean, with such an incredible amount of power, couldn't V kill the dragon, find and teleport to Haley. Teleport them and Roy's body to Durkon, teleport to Xykon, kill Redcloak and Xykon without even breaking a sweat?

I suppose he could break the story in that way, but where's the fun in that? Killing the dragon is fine, but to do all those other things it would really be anticlimatic.

[magic9mushroom]

V is getting the Arcane capabilities of the 3 souls. This almost certainly means their spell slots and caster level, and probably also includes Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) ranks (otherwise the Epic spells would be useless). It doesn't include HP or attack bonuses or anything like that.

However, V doesn't have any items to boost her Spellcraft. So no uberepic spells, methinks. Killing Xykon is bloody hard because he's basically immune to instakill effects, and the one that gets around it is Divine magic and is hence not on V's list. The green ray of doom or an Epic derivative (the Destroy seed) is probably the best way to do it, but it's of course unknown as to whether the souls actually have any Destroy spells available.

Also, Energy Drain would probably destabilise the gestalt by removing V's capability to hold onto it. In which case V would be utterly screwed.

[Zeitgeist]

I suppose he could break the story in that way, but where's the fun in that? Killing the dragon is fine, but to do all those other things it would really be anticlimatic.

That's my point. It obviously won't happen because it would ruin the excitement of the story very quickly, but my question is how do you guys theorize that V will be stopped from doing those story-breaking things?

[Kaytara]

That's my point. It obviously won't happen because it would ruin the excitement of the story very quickly, but my question is how do you guys theorize that V will be stopped from doing those story-breaking things?

If we assume the Soul Splice works the way V expects it will (which is not a small assumption), then the most obvious possibility is that V will just be able to hold onto it for a minute or so, enough to kill the dragon but not do much else.

Nevertheless, the theoretical ease with which Vaarsuvius could overcome any number of the group's obstacles now may indicate that the Soul Splice won't work exactly as expected...
Remember, the splicing of three souls at the same time is something that has never been tried before. V's basically a guinea pig in this. Not a good thing.

[David Argall]

V won't get any XP for defeating an epic level dragon. That simply means Xykon & friends have no chance against her. [MitD is quite possibly an exception here. We can easily see it saying "What fireball?" after Xykon and friends have been disposed of by an insanely overpowered fireball.]

So the story requires that something end V's power before that can happen.
One possibility...
V disposes of dragon, and maybe takes care of Roy by reuniting the party, but when she rushes off to eliminate Xykon, he gets off a preliminary round that shows that Xykon is going to lose easily, and then is met by the 3 fiends, who tell him that is all the time he gets.
She protests that they can't end the mind meld without voiding the deal. They agree, but say the deal does allow them to mention that they are able to take over her soul at whim, not at his death, which will upset her too much to maintain the meld. So he loses the power, and Xykon gets a nudge to leave Azure City.

[SupraGuy]

I've speculated this elsewhere, in the "4 words coming soon"

:vaarsuvius: now has access to some serious power, but only for however long V's willpower holds out.

How long will that be? The final panels of #634 seem to indicate that it's not going to be easy...

Given what we know of from elsewhere, there's going to be a stiff price to pay for at least one party member, and V is as good a candidate as any.

So, what happens if V can't "hold" the splice for very long? Say long enough to do ONE thing. This can either be to save the family, OR reunite the Order so that we can get on with the main plotline. If it can't be both... Maybe V does the right thing instead, and gets on with the business of saving the world. Isn't that what the Elf is doing on that island in the first place?

Of course there's one other party member who may have a hefty price to pay... :haley:

We know from bits and pieces that Haley's father is held prisoner, and that Haley has been trying to save up the ransom. Secretly, of course, but that's what she's been doing.

If at some point, Haley has to choose between saving her father, and resurrecting Roy and getting on with things, well...

But no. Given this information, I think that V is still a far more likely candidate. Haley still has to be (more or less) okay at the end for Elan's "happily ever after."

[Optimystik]

Gotta disagree here, V's effective level has just topped 60, destroying the whole world just became a trival matter, hell killing some gods is not outside the realms of possibillity

If the fiends could just lash some souls together and create a god-killing soul-juggernaut at any time, don't you think they'd have done that already?

For that matter, doesn't heaven have its share of epic-level defenders? Why, Roy's granddad took on at least two dragons, and he's not even at the top of the mountain yet.

[kusje]

For that matter, doesn't heaven have its share of epic-level defenders? Why, Roy's dad took on at least two dragons, and he's not even at the top of the mountain yet.

Grandfather. I can't remember if he said he soloed it though.

[Optimystik]

Grandfather. I can't remember if he said he soloed it though.

Whoops, fixed.

I don't know if he soloed them, but given that he's a pure fighter he was at least the party tank, which is almost as good.

[whitelaughter]

V versus Aure City would be an interesting fight.

Given what we know of V's preferred tactics?

Remember the giant warriors V used to hold the gap? Using the same spells on some summoned monsters would provide a screen of skilled defenders to hold off the wall of hobgoblins. Better yet, Command Undead on some of Tsukiko's wights and use those to sweep through the Hobs. Tsuki won't stand a chance of course; Redcloak though should be able to take several direct hits without dying.

The crunch is Xykon: he's already taken down two epic level opponents. He could probably go mano-a-mano with super-V. And he doesn't have to win; just hold V off until V loses control of the gestalt. At that point V is toast.
Or, Redcloak's spellcraft is clearly superb, so he might work out what they were up against, and suggest that Xykon Soulbind one or more of the other 3 souls in the link. If Team Evil offers a new body to one of the wizards - and it has already been foreshadowed that redcloak can Rez - they might voluntarily fail their save vs Trap the Soul.
This both weakens V, *and* means that V can't return the Soul to the owning fiend - meaning that V's soul is forfeit permanently.

Still, wiping out the hobs and leaving new wights roaming the city will probably persuade team evil to abandon Azure city, and head for the next gate.

[SPoD]

Everyone is confusing effective level with character level. The fiend said effective level, which has a specific D&D meaning. Effective level determines XP, but it is not the same as hit dice. It is also not the same thing as caster level, which may stay exactly the same as the original wizards (i.e. 20-something, maybe, but not a 60).

V is basically getting a huge Level Adjustment, but nothing else. He will still be a 14th level wizard with a +20 LA (or similar). As anyone who has ever played a race with even a small level adjustment can tell you, they have a glass jaw. Vaarsuvius is still going to have under 100 hit points and the saving throws of a 14th level wizard.

Further, why does everyone think V will be able to just invent any spell possible on the spot? That's ridiculous. He is gaining the specific spells and spell slots that these three spellcasters knew, and that's it. If they didn't know a spell, he doesn't have it. He certainly is not getting the power to whip up a "Kill Xykon spell" at a moment's notice. There's just no evidence for that in the comic.


V won't get any XP for defeating an epic level dragon. That simply means Xykon & friends have no chance against her.

Characters do not get XP for anything more than 8 levels below their effective level. If the black dragon has a CR of 20, V only needs an effective level of 29 to get no XP from defeating it. A CR of 29 is NOT ENOUGH to wipe the floor with Xykon and Company, because in all probability, Xykon himself has a CR over 29! Maybe V could win, yes. But it is not a sure bet.

There are likely only a handful of creatures in the world with a CR above 21, which would make it "pretty unlikely" to find and kill any of them in the few minutes that the spell might last.

[SporeGames]

If the fiends could just lash some souls together and create a god-killing soul-juggernaut at any time, don't you think they'd have done that already?



Um. They did. The clearly stated that this was there first time doing this and obviously have plans for V.

[Zeitgeist]

because in all probability, Xykon himself has a CR over 29!

Not in all probability. I doubt it. I don't think Roy would have went solo after him if the odds were THAT bad against him. In fact, I don't think the order would have defeated him the first time.

Honestly, if "ultimate arcane power" couldn't defeat Xykon, the world is screwed. You're seriously gimping down the power from what it's probably going to end up being.

If it's anything short of absolutely game-breaking all enemy killing awesome, then I'm going to have to say the prophesy has not yet come true, because that's sure not very "ultimate".

[magic9mushroom]

Not in all probability. I doubt it. I don't think Roy would have went solo after him if the odds were THAT bad against him. In fact, I don't think the order would have defeated him the first time.

Honestly, if "ultimate arcane power" couldn't defeat Xykon, the world is screwed. You're seriously gimping down the power from what it's probably going to end up being.

If it's anything short of absolutely game-breaking all enemy killing awesome, then I'm going to have to say the prophesy has not yet come true, because that's sure not very "ultimate".

Xykon has a CR of at least 25 and probably more. He lost the first time because he was fooling around enough to let Roy chuck him into the gate and for no other reason. The entire OotS would have had trouble defeating him in a normal fight. No save-or-dies vs. liches, remember? Also Paralyzing Touch.

[JonestheSpy]

Jeez folks, get over the rules-munching. It's so geeky it's disturbing even a 28 year gamer such as myself.

What V should do is defeat the dragon as fast as s/he possibly can and then relinquish the splice, to minimize the amount of time the fiends get access to hir soul. I think we can all guess that that won't happen, though...

[pnewman]

But will V be able to kill the dragon without taking some damage in the process, given how tough Dragons are? Oh sure the damage will be nothing
to the 'magic steroided up' V but it will be enough to kill her if she lets the splice go. She can't use divine magic to heal herself.

She's going to have to
1) Hold the splice for long enough to heal naturally, which seems unlikely.

2) Release it and thus die while under the influence of the splice, which is apparently making her evil, thus ensureing that her soul will go to a lower plane (which may have been the fiends plan all along).

3) Go get magical healing from someone who won't be picky about her being evil (Greysky City Temple of Loki?).

4) If one of those epic bad-guys knows Shapechange she can just cast it and shift into something with regeneration, but who says that any of them know it. The Sorceror has a limited number of ninth level spells known, and the two specialist wizards would both have to have barred schools, they could both well have picked Transmutation. I suspect Ganonron, the Conjurer would probably know Gate and/or Monster Summoning 9, so V could probably use one of them to bring her an extraplanar being who could cure her wounds.

[Zeitgeist]

Xykon has a CR of at least 25 and probably more. He lost the first time because he was fooling around enough to let Roy chuck him into the gate and for no other reason. The entire OotS would have had trouble defeating him in a normal fight. No save-or-dies vs. liches, remember? Also Paralyzing Touch.

See, now you're jumping around between rules and story. If he's really that powerful, even "fooling around" wouldn't have allowed him to be defeated as easily as he was. That right there shows that actually, his CR is pretty irrelevant. The power of story can make the weakest characters powerful and the strongest characters weak.

Which is also why I believe, with the power of story, the spliced V would probably be able to defeat Xykon and Co. However, for some reason, in order to keep the story interesting, he won't. My question is still: WHY won't he?

[Kgw]

Because of the Evil.
Now three powerful voices inside of V are chanting about destruction, killing, fire and pain. Against those who V hates or whoever steps in V's way. Not about saving the world

So the mother dragon is doomed, and then anyone:
V's master? Hinjo? Durkon? Belkar? Everyone failed V or did not understand V's plan, were too stupid to step aside...
The world? Who -except the Giant- knows

[rxmd]

WHY won't he?
Do what everybody else does and just wait a couple of strips. Of course you can speculate and ask questions on webforums, but you'll still have to wait for the strip, and in the end it will just prove you wrong anyway.

[King of Nowhere]

I'm going with the "Team evil is too powerful even for super V" party.
The point is, challeng rating is a useful guideline, but it is NOT, definitley, a measure of how a fight will go. There are tactics, and the chance to cast buffing spells before the battle, and specifical weaknesses/resistances.
Heck, on the monster manual it is stated that a Remorazh (CR 7) often defeat a Frost Wirm (CR 14). That's because Remorazh have resistance to cold and deal a hell of fire damage, while frost wirms are sensitive to fire and deal ice damage.

So, no matter how many arcane spellcaster we cram into V, there's only that much he can accomplish. If he didn't prepare still spells, a grapple check from Mr Scruffy will nullify his power. V won't get many HP from the deal, only offensive power, and Xykon coul probably blast him with one spell or two. As someone else said, team evil can cast 5-6 spells per round, V only two, and V is not invulnerable.
It may work if V cas a lot of defensive spells before teleporting, then pop in, find individual members of team evil by themselves, and slay them one at a time. Or two at a time, if the two aren't Xykon and Redcloack, in that case no bet.
Even with greater spell mantle, the whole team can overcome it in less than one round. The best chance would then be banshee's wail; it would probably kill Tsukiko, whose saves sucks, and hopefully Redcloack, then super V can probably defeat Xykon (but I expect an almost fair fight. Basically, they both are epic spellcasters that have a limited number of spells per round, and Xykon is much harder to kill). The problem is, Redcloack has good fortitude saves, and it is possible that the crimson mantle protects him from instant death effects or bolster his saves. If Redcloack survives, he can at least heal Xykon, giving him the edge.

By the way, is it true that sorcerers can't quicken their spells? Was that a rule change I'm not aware of, or a mistake from the poster?

[Zeitgeist]

It may work if V cas a lot of defensive spells before teleporting, then pop in, find individual members of team evil by themselves, and slay them one at a time. Or two at a time, if the two aren't Xykon and Redcloack, in that case no bet.

And I bet he would if he felt any reasonable doubt of failure. And don't you think it'd be pretty easy to get surprises on everybody? They aren't exactly expecting V to pop in and be ultimately powerful.

And most of them don't hang out together, and I'd bed RC and Xykon wouldn't even be together. But with all the surprises, and taking them out in pairs or singles, I don't see the problem.

Not to mention we don't know the variety of spells he'll suddenly be able to use. Some kind of dominate or control person spell, perhaps? Maybe he could take control of the MitD. Would that sway it enough? I don't know what it would take to make the fight easy, but it sounds like he'll be getting everything he needs.

[Volkov]

V ends up going on an unholy rampage of utter destruction, killing everyone and everything in it's way, from the smallest field mouse to the largest Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon.