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View Full Version : How good are ranged touch attacks, really?



Myrmex
2009-03-03, 06:28 AM
I know they're supposed to be really good, but below level 11, I can't see many reasons why you'd be casting them against most opponents over save-or-dies or using buffs. They aren't even that reliable, given your poor BAB, difficulty of getting bonuses to ranged touch ac, and the -4 penalty for shooting into melee. In the opening round of combat, I tend to cast mirror image or invisibility rather than debuff something with a ray, since any combat involving anything with over 6 int or 6 wis will go straight for the caster. At least that's how my DMs run it.

I can see a max of +11 to hit for a dragonwrought kobold of level 10, discounting bard song or what have you. Which is very solid.

Of course, I usually get around +8 (15 base, +2 race -3 age, +2 item), which ends up +4 in most fights. Against an enraged ogre barbarian, a CR 7 challenge, that's a 15% failure chance (touch ac 8). Against a 10th level fighter (touch ac 13), it's a 45% failure rate!

Compare that with a DC 23 save on my fourth level conjuration & transmutation spells, which include reflex or lose, will or lose, and fort or lose. Most CR 10s have around +7 to their worst save, which means they have to roll a 16 or better, which gives me a 20% failure rate to seriously incapacitate something. That seems altogether superior than metamagic enfeebling something. Other than enervate, most ray spells seem appropriate for plants, undead, and stuff like that, and spell slots would be better devoted to just slaying things outright (or making it blind, gibbering, stunned, slowed, etc). Glitterdust, DC 21, or grease, DC 20, seem better uses of spell slots, given that their effects are superior to penalties, they're AoE, and more reliable (if targets are in melee).

Could someone explain what I'm doing wrong?

Eloel
2009-03-03, 06:40 AM
One place they are very useful;
Against AMF.
Orbs, Swarm of Crystals, Crystal Shards, and whatever are all ranged-touch-attacks, and they're not effected my AMF (or NPF).

There you have it.


(This is coming from someone blasted to bits in an arena game because his psion didn't have a single ranged touch-attack power.)

lord_khaine
2009-03-03, 06:44 AM
well for a start being invisible helps a lot on hitting, and for my current wizard i generally have around a 50/50 chance each round of finding something to shoot at that does not invoke the -4 penalty, meaning i have a fancy +8 to hit instead of the not quite as impressive +4

Graymayre
2009-03-03, 06:44 AM
several ranged touch attacks don't even use saves. Thus, if a creature has a low touch AC and high saves, touch attacks have a much better chance of affecting that creature. Ray of Enfeeblement is the main one that comes to mind.

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 07:02 AM
Ranged touch attacks are wonderful debuffs that might also deal damage and as said, usually don't have saves or only have partial saves. Case in point:
*Enervation: Huge debuff (spells, saves, BAB, skills, HP, everything) and potential to simply kill people. No save, just ranged touch & SR.
*Orb of Fire: Decent damage at 1d6 per level up to 15d6, and save vs. being dazed for a round. Double threat, save only vs. the Daze, ranged touch, no SR. So it's a Save-or-Suck combined with damage.
*Stun Ray: Hit target and he's stunned. Save and you're "only" stunned for 1 round. Save-or-Effectively-Die, only Ranged Touch Attack & SR.
*Ray of Stupidity: Hit a low Int target and it ends up in comatose. Second level so metamagic 'er up. No save, just Ranged Touch Attack & SR.
*Scorching Ray: Nothing amazing, but the most damage-per-level in one spell. The basis for most Boom Boom-builds.

So yea, the reason they're used is because the effects are huge and don't offer saves. When opponent has already engaged in melee, you have little reason to use Rays. Switch to other spells instead. Use Rays early on to debuff the BBEG or to kill that Purple Worm that's 10 points above you in CR. That means that at level 10, that 5 BAB + 3-4 Dex is perfectly reasonable.

Also, one thing you forgot: Quickened True Strike means that you can effectively always hit your target with a Ray if you really want. That means that as Rays usually bypass saves and Assay Resistance passes SR, you can trivially disable a target with all defenses at the highest degree.


To reiterate, Rays aren't your bread & butter offense, but they're your principal tool against Big Bads, be it a huge melee brute like Purple Worm or some mighty caster/warrior like Red Dragon. Use them when facing small numbers of hugely powerful opponents (or use a Chained version to drop hordes of small, but still tough guys).

AslanCross
2009-03-03, 07:28 AM
Avasculate. Level 7. Ranged touch attack. Half target's HP, no save. (Though unlike most ranged touch spells, it's SR: Yes)
It's a necromancy effect so it won't work on everything, but it sure hurts against everything that is weak against it.

Also, boosting a wizard's AB is as easy as true strike. +20 to your next attack roll is likely to work against almost any touch AC, though I've seen it fail spectacularly in my game.

Tokiko Mima
2009-03-03, 07:41 AM
Early on, they aren't much better than a regular attack. However, they have a big advantage in that they gain much more from any situation that negates your foes Dexterity modifier, and they increase dramatically in effectiveness the larger your enemy is. The only disadvantage is that a 4th level spell completely stops them, which is why you should not neglect melee touch attacks. :smallsmile:

Also, you might look up a Rod of Magical Precision to negate that -4 to firing into melee. They're not that expensive.

Dyllan
2009-03-03, 08:20 AM
Also, it depends on your build.

In our campaign we have a character who's playing a Sorceress/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster/that ray specialist from Complete Mage. Last battle, at level 12, she was doing sneak attacks with orb spells that hit for 22d6 (including sneak attack damage).

And once she picks up that 5th level spell that lets you cast a 4th and 1st level spell simultaneously, she'll be able to do a 22d6 and a 15d6 ray in one round with a single 5th level slot.

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-03, 08:54 AM
I agreew withy Tokiko about them being good due to how most enemies are likely to have awful Touch AC, but I don't see melee touch attacks as a good option for most arcanists due to their fragileness. Also, do you start at older age catagories for the mental stat boosts, Myrmex?

Who_Da_Halfling
2009-03-03, 11:02 AM
I have a player who has the same opinion of touch attacks as you do, and I agree that when facing hordes, they aren't as effective as spells like Glitterdust or Fireball. The real difference is when you're fighting a single major opponent, particularly a humanoid with class levels. Many of those get most of their AC from Armor or other effects that don't boost their Touch AC, allowing spells like the Orbs to be incredibly effective.

On the other hand, part of our debate (bet/n me and my player) is that she chose to bar Conjuration (3.0 version of school specialization) to specialize in Evocation, which is a choice I disagree with but am still willing to let her do since she's the player and I'm the DM. I am trying to show her why her choice mgiht not be optimal, but I'm not going to make her change, or kill her and make her start over.

-JM

ravenkith
2009-03-03, 03:43 PM
In all seriousness? RTAs are very useful against individual opponents, and next to useless for crowd control, under normal circumstances.

If you are going to war and need to kill 40+ people per spell, then RTAs will most likely not be your best choice.

If you are going on an adventure, and suspect that you will be fighting a dragon the next morning, RTAs can be your very bestest friend in the universe. (See Shivering Touch, Lesser + Arcane Thesis + Reach Spell + Empower Spell + Split Ray + Assay Resistance).

Caster mumbles a bit, points finger at Dragon. An odd ray flies from his finger tip to strike the Dragon in the chest. Dragon starts to slow down and in a few seconds has stopped moving altogether.

Caster: "Alright guys, that was a close one! Let's beat it to death and then we can go and loot it's hoard,"
Rest of Party: "Sweet!"

Myrmex
2009-03-03, 05:52 PM
well for a start being invisible helps a lot on hitting, and for my current wizard i generally have around a 50/50 chance each round of finding something to shoot at that does not invoke the -4 penalty, meaning i have a fancy +8 to hit instead of the not quite as impressive +4

An excellent suggestion, for those high dex monsters. For a fighter in melee, though, I still have only a +4 vs. his touch AC 12, which leaves a 40% chance of missing, and even if the ray does hit, it's not that spectacular, compared to him being blinded, greased, feebleminded, dominated, etc.


several ranged touch attacks don't even use saves. Thus, if a creature has a low touch AC and high saves, touch attacks have a much better chance of affecting that creature. Ray of Enfeeblement is the main one that comes to mind.

I understand this, but in most situations, I would be better off buffing my party with haste (100% success), or casting a save-or-die (10% to 40% failure rate), than using a ray (20% to 40% failure, no-save effect not as useful as save-or-be-dominated).


Ranged touch attacks are wonderful debuffs that might also deal damage and as said, usually don't have saves or only have partial saves. Case in point:
*Enervation: Huge debuff (spells, saves, BAB, skills, HP, everything) and potential to simply kill people. No save, just ranged touch & SR.
*Orb of Fire: Decent damage at 1d6 per level up to 15d6, and save vs. being dazed for a round. Double threat, save only vs. the Daze, ranged touch, no SR. So it's a Save-or-Suck combined with damage.
*Stun Ray: Hit target and he's stunned. Save and you're "only" stunned for 1 round. Save-or-Effectively-Die, only Ranged Touch Attack & SR.
*Ray of Stupidity: Hit a low Int target and it ends up in comatose. Second level so metamagic 'er up. No save, just Ranged Touch Attack & SR.
*Scorching Ray: Nothing amazing, but the most damage-per-level in one spell. The basis for most Boom Boom-builds.

These are probably the most solid ranged touch attacks, as the failure rate of landing one is more than made up for by the effects. Ray of Enfeeblment, on the other hand, only shows up on my prepared spells because it's a decent level one spell.


So yea, the reason they're used is because the effects are huge and don't offer saves. When opponent has already engaged in melee, you have little reason to use Rays. Switch to other spells instead. Use Rays early on to debuff the BBEG or to kill that Purple Worm that's 10 points above you in CR. That means that at level 10, that 5 BAB + 3-4 Dex is perfectly reasonable.

Yeah, the rays are good vs. the really big stuff (huge+), since they get -4 to touch AC just for being big (-4 dex, -2 size), and against the bigger outsiders (typically demons), as they have all good saves. But even 9 touch AC, once it's in melee, goes up to 13. With +8 to hit, that's still a pretty good chance to miss. Not as bad as having the outsider make a save, but not a guarantee by any means.


Also, one thing you forgot: Quickened True Strike means that you can effectively always hit your target with a Ray if you really want. That means that as Rays usually bypass saves and Assay Resistance passes SR, you can trivially disable a target with all defenses at the highest degree.

If I want to use a 5th level spell slot. I'd rather have a teleport, or just cast two save-or-dies.


To reiterate, Rays aren't your bread & butter offense, but they're your principal tool against Big Bads, be it a huge melee brute like Purple Worm or some mighty caster/warrior like Red Dragon. Use them when facing small numbers of hugely powerful opponents (or use a Chained version to drop hordes of small, but still tough guys).

Dragons get casting, which means they're all going to be using scintillating scales. My DM also tends to put a handful of class levels on stuff, like devils with a level of monk, or demons with a few wizard levels (+1 CR) for scintillating scales. This makes the likelihood of landing a touch attack tank against opponents that I would naturally assume would have bad touch ac. They also use items, so tend to have their treasure invested in a cloak of resistance and a ring of protection.

It's just that at levels below 10, it's almost trivial for the DM to boost touch AC a couple points to make the action of throwing a save-or-die less a waste of time than trying to debuff something.


Avasculate. Level 7. Ranged touch attack. Half target's HP, no save. (Though unlike most ranged touch spells, it's SR: Yes)
It's a necromancy effect so it won't work on everything, but it sure hurts against everything that is weak against it.

Sure, at level 13, when you can afford using quickened true strike or a rod of it.


Also, boosting a wizard's AB is as easy as true strike. +20 to your next attack roll is likely to work against almost any touch AC, though I've seen it fail spectacularly in my game.

But I'd rather give my party haste with that action than spend a round putting up true strike. For stuff like disintegrate, taking the time to do it right is definitely worthwhile. But that's post-level 10. More than half of the games I play are under level 10, and for what you get, ranged touch spells aren't overwhelmingly awesome.


Also, you might look up a Rod of Magical Precision to negate that -4 to firing into melee. They're not that expensive.

What book is that? That would totally make ranged touch attacks worth it.


I agreew withy Tokiko about them being good due to how most enemies are likely to have awful Touch AC, but I don't see melee touch attacks as a good option for most arcanists due to their fragileness. Also, do you start at older age catagories for the mental stat boosts, Myrmex?

Most enemies also have an awful save, though, and ranged touch attacks aren't guaranteed to hit. In fact, they're very often about as likely to work as a save-or-die, but with less spectacular results.

I advance age categories both for the mental stat boost, and because I like playing crotchety old wizards.


(See Shivering Touch, Lesser + Arcane Thesis + Reach Spell + Empower Spell + Split Ray + Assay Resistance).

(See Scintillating Scales)

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 05:56 PM
If I want to use a 5th level spell slot. I'd rather have a teleport, or just cast two save-or-dies.

Use a Rod & 1st level slot. Lesser Quicken is still relatively affordable at 35k. Also, of course, if you weren't going to cast more spells than that anyways, you could spend two turns with True Strike + Touch Spell.

Myrmex
2009-03-03, 06:13 PM
35k is a ton at level 10, and pretty much out of the question before that. If starting before level 10, I find it better to spend my gold on useful things rather than horde it. Scrolls, for instance, or pearls of power, or stat boosters. At level 11 or 12, it's definitely affordable, but not when it's more than 70% of your wealth in a single item.

Hypothetically, you could have it, but in practice, unless a lucky roll on a DMG loot table, I rarely see anything over 50% of WBL in a single item. Except maybe Fighter's sword. Maybe.

Casting true strike followed up with a ranged touch attack is certainly very solid. It's especially good with a ray of stupidity at lower levels (before feeblemind). Totally incapacitating to casters.

Eldariel
2009-03-03, 06:20 PM
Around levels 12-13, it begins to be affordable though. And even on level 10, if you happen to have an Artificer/character with Mercantile Background in the party, you can get it. But yah, definitely not something to burn half your WPL on. Circlet of Rapid Casting [MiC] is a 15k version, btw.

Tokiko Mima
2009-03-03, 09:40 PM
What book is that? That would totally make ranged touch attacks worth it.

Complete Mage, pg. 128 :) More expensive than I thought though, now that I look. Still, 12,000 gp isn't so bad.

Also check out the Horizon Goggles on pg. 133. +50% range on all your ranged attacks just like you had taken the Far Shot feat, but it also applies to spells and SLA's. Yours for the paltry sum of 8,000 gp.

They're great for warlocks, but Vancian casters can use them too. :smallwink:

Tempest Fennac
2009-03-04, 03:12 AM
I know they aren't guarenteed to hit, but it could also be argued that de-buffs and save-or-die effects won't always work either. The ironic thing is that a lot of theose things don;t apply to my games; save-or-die spells are banned and I use a different aging penalty system due to how unrealistic the normal system is ( http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,109.0.html ), and I also always start at level 1 so I'd expect players to start as young adults.:smalltongue: My tendancy to use enemies with class levels may also mean that saving are less likely to fail in my games.

Talic
2009-03-04, 07:14 AM
12,000 gp for an item that duplicates a feat?

Compared to other items that do the same (Nightstick, etc), it doesn't seem overpriced.

Elminster1
2009-03-05, 07:48 PM
In my opinion, Ranged Touch spells, are ok, but mostly suited for the ONE BIG BADDY, or are begging for metamagic, to make them more effective, like the ubiquitous metamagicked Enervation. Wihout the appropriate metamagic feats, single target one shot rays seem half baked at best. So, you need to make them work for you, using metamagic, PRClasses that enhance, feats of course, etc.

-Elminster1