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View Full Version : Summoned monsters (probably not what you think)



Shpadoinkle
2009-03-03, 10:15 AM
So the BBEG summons a bunch of monsters and sics them after the party. Then the BBEG retreats via Teleport or whatever, leaving his summons to fight the party, who survive and emerge victorious from the battle.

I've heard some people claim that you would NOT get any XP for that encounter because you don't get XP for beating summoned monsters, as they're calculated as part of the summoner's CR, and the party never hit the summoner with a spell or a weapon or anything.

I've also heard people say that the people saying "You'd get no XP for that" are completely full of ****, and the PCs should get XP for overcoming an encounter of the caster's CR- they sucessfully overcame the challenge he presented, and the fact that he retreated doesn't have a damn thing to do with it because you DON'T get XP for killing stuff, but for overcoming challenges.

Personally, I agree with the second line of thought, and I was wondering how other people would rule it and why.

Greg
2009-03-03, 10:25 AM
Are they actual summons that disappear after CL rounds? Or will they persist? If they persist, offer full XP. If they don't, half? Actual summons can be hedged out by magic circle spells.

Greengiant
2009-03-03, 10:27 AM
I model xp not only after just the intended CR, but after how challenging the fight actually was. I like to think of experience as the ammount of skill or information gained from that particular chain of events. If something is easier or harder, I adjust xp. A sorcerer, surprised and killed in a round or whatnot, would obviously not give as much knowledge or skill improvements, and the xp would be a bit reduced from standard. If a CR 3 monster is supposed to take a quarter of four level three PC's resources, and doesn't, or takes more, it isn't a CR 3, now is it.

For this situation, if the CR isn't doing what the CR usually would do, adjust experience accordingly. But that's just how I would do it.

EDIT: Spelling, grammar, sentence structure. (I didn't read it over before posting)

kamikasei
2009-03-03, 10:37 AM
I've also heard people say that the people saying "You'd get no XP for that" are completely full of ****, and the PCs should get XP for overcoming an encounter of the caster's CR- they sucessfully overcame the challenge he presented, and the fact that he retreated doesn't have a damn thing to do with it because you DON'T get XP for killing stuff, but for overcoming challenges.

This is correct, but not the full story.

CR is not a hard and fast rule but a guideline. The challenge of overcoming a few summons is not equal to that of overcoming the caster himself. The party would not gain XP for defeating the summons as if they were monsters making up an encounter by themselves, but they shouldn't gain the full XP for defeating the caster either. They would get a reduced reward based on the caster's CR, scaled down by how little a proportion of his full challenge he threw at them.

Essentially, you're not overcoming the challenge of the caster. You're overcoming a lesser challenge that he created with a minor expenditure of resources. If he'd had to retreat after blowing a bunch of spells in a proper battle, you'd have overcome him.

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-03, 10:55 AM
Essentially, you're not overcoming the challenge of the caster. You're overcoming a lesser challenge that he created with a minor expenditure of resources. If he'd had to retreat after blowing a bunch of spells in a proper battle, you'd have overcome him.

This. Imho, DM can adjucdicate situations case-by-case and see the efforts of players but as a general rule, what kamikasei said.

Fixer
2009-03-03, 10:59 AM
How is it that they were summoned creatures but remained after the caster removed himself from the area of effect? They should have disappeared with him.

Now, if they were called, that wouldn't apply, but they would remain behind after their deaths for looting.


As far as XP is considered, they overcame a challenge which is what grants them XP. The challenge was the summoned creatures. Figure out their CRs and award XP accordingly.

grinner666
2009-03-03, 11:34 AM
How is it that they were summoned creatures but remained after the caster removed himself from the area of effect? They should have disappeared with him.

Now, if they were called, that wouldn't apply, but they would remain behind after their deaths for looting.

Actually there is nothing in any Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spell description that says the creatures involved will disappear if the summoner moves out of range of the summoning. I see no reason to assume the spell will not persist just because Elvis has left the building.

As to XPs, the summoned/called/whatever creatures are part of the challenge of defeating the summoner and thus should not be worth any experience points in and of themselves. If the players want experience for defeating those creatures, they should make every effort to track down the spellcaster and defeat him before he has the opportunity to re-prepare those spells.

A great deal also depends on the circumstances under which the spellcaster flees the scene. If the summoner flees after a lengthy (or even short) fight in fear for his life, then he's obviously used his abilities as well as he can and the players should gain XPs for defeating him. If he just cast a couple of Summoning spells and then buggers off to frustrate the PCs, then he's accomplished his purpose, not run away, and the players shouldn't get experience until they actually manage to defeat him.

:smallbiggrin:

Fixer
2009-03-03, 12:00 PM
Actually there is nothing in any Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spell description that says the creatures involved will disappear if the summoner moves out of range of the summoning. I see no reason to assume the spell will not persist just because Elvis has left the building.It did used to be that way, though, right? I know I picked that up somewhere. A summoner had to be within 'range' of their summons or they disappeared.


As to XPs, the summoned/called/whatever creatures are part of the challenge of defeating the summoner and thus should not be worth any experience points in and of themselves. If the players want experience for defeating those creatures, they should make every effort to track down the spellcaster and defeat him before he has the opportunity to re-prepare those spells.

A great deal also depends on the circumstances under which the spellcaster flees the scene. If the summoner flees after a lengthy (or even short) fight in fear for his life, then he's obviously used his abilities as well as he can and the players should gain XPs for defeating him. If he just cast a couple of Summoning spells and then buggers off to frustrate the PCs, then he's accomplished his purpose, not run away, and the players shouldn't get experience until they actually manage to defeat him.You must hate your players. If you were my GM and pulled this kind of thing regularly I know I would be forced to hurt you. Having to face threats for no gain is a sure-fire way of ticking off people, while simultaneously going against the entire concept of 'experience'.

The characters faced a challenge (not the summoner, but what was summoned) and, assumedly, overcame it. That is the entire basis of experience: overcoming challenges. If the summoner had stuck around and fought, then the summoner's XP would cover all their summoned minions. As the summoner buggered out before they could even be challenged, the challenge would be the summons IF the characters decide to fight them, or had to fight them. If the PCs had just walked away and not fought and let the summon spell expire, then no XP should have been given because there was no challenge.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-03, 06:02 PM
I would give XP according to the summoned monsters. Think about it like this:

If a BBEG fighter with leadership sent his minionsfollowers to attack you, but ran away, would you give them XP for defeating the followers? Of course!

If a BBEG rouge built a trap and you disarmed it, would you get XP (assuming your DM plays with XP from traps, mine doesn't :smalltongue:)?

If the caster is the challenge then the summoned monsters are one of his class features.

If the monsters are the challenge, then give them XP as if they defeated the monsters. Thats my reasoning.

Tiki Snakes
2009-03-03, 07:02 PM
If the Caster is the challenge and no xp from summoned creatures, then the Party gets XP for having routed the Summoner from the field of battle. *shrug*