PDA

View Full Version : [4e] Rogue at-will for Lone Wolves



Yakk
2009-03-03, 01:09 PM
Distracting Blow + Rogue Attack 1
At-will + Martial, Weapon
Special: This power may only be used with a light blade, sling or crossbow.
Attack: Dex-2 vs Will
Hit: [W] damage, increasing to 2[W] at level 21. Until the end of your next turn, you have combat advantage against the target.
Sustain Minor: You continue to have combat advantage until the end of your next turn. You may only use this if you have hit the target since the start of your turn.

The goal is simple -- the Rogue gives up some base damage output, and in exchange can start a combat advantage chain on a target.

This allows a Rogue to go off and hunt down a Lurker or Artillery if they need to. Currently, the Rogue is the only striker who is abysmal outside of being paired with another character.

At Dex-2 vs Will, it is about average accuracy (for a Rogue that is).

At [W]+0 damage, it is giving up some damage output.

The power is mainly useful when you have no other source of combat advantage (such as flanking).

The sustain minor is there to give the Rogue the option to switch up which attack she uses, rather than just spamming Distracting Blow.

The Rogue is still pretty crippled when reduced to using Distracting Blow for combat advantage, because whenever she misses, the target does not grant CA on the next round to her.

Comments? Ways to clean it up?

Ninetail
2009-03-05, 02:51 AM
Overly powerful.

The reason the rogue gets more bonus damage than the other strikers is that the rogue requires combat advantage, which is a bigger disadvantage than the other strikers' requirements of setting a curse or quarry on the target. Combat advantage is meant to be at least a little harder to come by, in other words.

This at-will allows a rogue to fairly easily achieve combat advantage every round (beyond the first, in which he can gain combat advantage through surprise), which means sneak attack every round without having to use other methods or powers, or teamwork, to achieve advantage.

Yes, it can miss; however, it still has an excellent chance of hitting against most creatures, since it's against a non-AC defense, especially if the rogue does have surprise/CA during the first round. When it does miss, since it's at-will, the rogue can just switch back to using it. Though he no longer has CA, it's still a superior choice to any of his other powers, because if it does hit, it will re-establish CA, without forcing him to expend any of his resources that he might otherwise use to establish CA.

For comparison, there is a level 6 rogue encounter power in Martial Power that, as a minor action, grants the rogue CA until the beginning of his next turn. It does no damage and is not sustainable (although there's a condition that can cause its duration to extend until the end of the rogue's next turn instead, so two rounds instead of one). It doesn't have an attack roll, either, but that suggests to me that your power should be at least a level 7 encounter power -- trading the attack roll requirement for the longer potential duration. (Level 7 because level 6 is utility powers; level 7 is encounter attacks.)

Mando Knight
2009-03-05, 10:44 AM
For comparison, there is a level 6 rogue encounter power in Martial Power that, as a minor action, grants the rogue CA until the beginning of his next turn. It does no damage and is not sustainable (although there's a condition that can cause its duration to extend until the end of the rogue's next turn instead, so two rounds instead of one). It doesn't have an attack roll, either, but that suggests to me that your power should be at least a level 7 encounter power -- trading the attack roll requirement for the longer potential duration. (Level 7 because level 6 is utility powers; level 7 is encounter attacks.)

There's also a level 1 rogue encounter power in the PHB that inflicts the Dazed condition for one turn on the target as a standard action.

That said, adding a Sustain Minor to an effect that grants CA to a character class without much other use for minor actions is a pretty powerful bonus...

Rigon
2009-03-05, 07:12 PM
So the point is to get combat advantage?
here is my try at it:

Kick in the JewelsKick in the Jewels + Rogue Attack 1
A hand-crossbow aimed at the shoulder, and a dagger swung at the neck... no wonder he didn't expect the boots between his legs.
At-will + Martial (no weapon)
Standard Action Melee 1
Target: One humanoid creature.
Attack: Dex - 3 + 1 per tier vs Will (so -2 at start, but the lacking weapon enhancement needs to be replaced with something)
Critical: 1D4 damage, increasing to 2D4 at level 21. The target grants you combat advantage until the end of his third turn from now.
Hit: 1D4 damage, increasing to 2D4 at level 21. The target grants you combat advantage until the end of his next turn.MindslipMindslip + Rogue Attack 1
Hiding your own presence is the art of making enemies forget about you altogether.
At-will + Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Primary Target: One creature.
Primary Attack: Charisma vs AC
Hit: 1[W] damage, increasing to 2[W] at level 21. Perform secondary attack.
Secondary Target: YOURSELF
Secondary Attack: Charisma vs Will
Hit: You max shift 1 square. (meaning you could not hide your presence)
Miss: You may shift 1 square. Your next attack against an adjacent enemy will grant you combat advantage.

Yakk
2009-03-05, 07:58 PM
*nod*, except the power is bad in nearly all other ways.

As it stands, combat advantage is easy to get if you have a sparring partner -- and quite hard to get if you don't.

This power requires you give up an at-will for it. If you have a source of combat advantage already, it is by far the worst at-will in the game.

Crunching the numbers proved harder than I thought -- working out what the X round damage output of a rogue with reasonable assumptions isn't easy. Might have to run a monte carlo simulation. :)

For a downward tweak:
Sustain Minor: You take a -2 penalty to all attacks against the target until the end of this turn. You continue to have combat advantage against the target until the end of your next turn. If you fail to hit the target between now and the end of your turn, the effect ends.

In effect, you lose the +2 to hit form Combat advantage, as you give up some accuracy in exchange for keeping your opponent off balance.

The 'sustain minor' is pretty essential, as I don't want a rogue spamming this. I like the feel of feinting the opponent off balance, then exploiting it with other attacks.

Meek
2009-03-06, 06:31 AM
It's a fairly unorthodox power mechanically and does quite a few no-no's as far as Wizard's are concerned (sustain on an At-Will) but balance-wise I don't see too much a problem, especially with that second revision taking away your to-hit bonus from advantage. Yes you can sneak attack pretty much every turn, but if you were a half-decent rogue you should have been doing that already. Unless of course you're alone or didn't take ANY of the condition-inflicting powers. Which is where this thing comes in.

It also becomes completely obsolete when you can use a lasting frost combo to have real advantage every round, and maybe even eek out a little bonus damage from the vulnerability. Or in general at higher levels when conditions are easier to deal and ways to gain combat advantage are greater.

Rigon
2009-03-06, 07:22 AM
well... if we take away the attack bonus...
how about you simply state that if you're alone facing the enemy (meaning no allies are present in the encounter) then the combat advantage remains against the target until the end of the encounter but you get a -2 penalty to ALL your attacks (this effect ends when the target dies or leaves the encounter otherwise).
no sustain... you get to attack the target normally, you enjoy the sneak attack, but you have to kill one target first to move on to the next, or you take -2 attack penalty (which does no increase afterwards because penalties from the same power don't stack).

how about this? (i meant this as modification of YOUR power Yakk)

Ninetail
2009-03-07, 05:08 AM
*nod*, except the power is bad in nearly all other ways.

As it stands, combat advantage is easy to get if you have a sparring partner -- and quite hard to get if you don't.

This power requires you give up an at-will for it. If you have a source of combat advantage already, it is by far the worst at-will in the game.


No... the power is an at-will. And it's not the worst at-will the rogue could use, because its effect far more than makes up for what it lacks in damage. It's sort of as though a wizard had an at-will that did no damage but stunned a creature for a round -- that wouldn't be "the worst" wizard at-will, it would be the best!

The only thing that keeps your proposed power from being the best for a rogue is that, in most situations, rogues can easily achieve CA with the help of a teammate. Yes, I realize this power is specifically intended for lone rogues, but I think you're running into the game design here: 4e is built to encourage team play, not just as an ideal, but mechanically.



For a downward tweak:
Sustain Minor: You take a -2 penalty to all attacks against the target until the end of this turn. You continue to have combat advantage against the target until the end of your next turn. If you fail to hit the target between now and the end of your turn, the effect ends.

In effect, you lose the +2 to hit form Combat advantage, as you give up some accuracy in exchange for keeping your opponent off balance.


This is better, yes. It's probably not unbalanced at that point, though I'm still not sure I like it conceptually.



The 'sustain minor' is pretty essential, as I don't want a rogue spamming this. I like the feel of feinting the opponent off balance, then exploiting it with other attacks.

This is a function of the Bluff skill, though -- a function which is limited to once per combat (per enemy), IIRC. Does taking this power eliminate any need for a rogue to train in Bluff for this purpose? If so, it may still be too strong.

(Or maybe not. Bluff is good for a lot of social situations, too.)

Yakk
2009-03-07, 01:20 PM
The goal is to allow a Rogue to work at reduced effectiveness without a flanking partner.

In 4e, it is very easy and cheap for a Rogue to get combat advantage if they have 1 or 2 flanking partners, and quite expensive/hard to get it without a flanking partner.

I'm aiming to make it easier to gain combat advantage, with a Rogue, without the flanking partner.

Other strikers are capable of 'taking out the target in the back', but a Rogue who attempts that is probably going to be ridiculously weak.

...

Here is a version that is mechanically identical in effect, easier in wordage:

Distracting Blow + Rogue Attack 1
At-will + Martial, Weapon
Special: This power may only be used with a light blade, sling or crossbow.
Attack: Dex-2 vs Will
Hit: [W] damage, increasing to 2[W] at level 21. Until the end of your next turn, the target is a valid target to deal backstab damage to (this does not apply to this Hit).
Sustain Minor: The target remains a valid target to deal backstab damage to until the end of your next turn. You may only use this sustain ability if you have hit the target since the start of your turn.

A "teamwork" version of the above:

Distracting Blow + Rogue Attack 1
At-will + Martial, Weapon
Special: This power may only be used with a light blade, sling or crossbow.
Attack: Dex-2 vs Will
Hit: Deal [W] damage, increasing to [W] at level 21. Until the end of your next turn, the target is a valid target to deal backstab damage to.
Sustain Minor: The target remains a valid target to deal backstab damage to until the end of your next turn. You may only use this sustain ability if one of your allies has hit the target since the end of your last turn.

---

The teamwork version is probably too good when facing a single opponent that the rest of the party is beating on, sadly.

A real Lone Wolf version:
Distracting Blow + Rogue Attack 1
At-will + Martial, Weapon
Special: This power may only be used with a light blade, sling or crossbow.
Attack: Dex-2 vs Will
Hit: Deal [W] damage, increasing to [W] at level 21. Until the end of your next turn, the target is a valid target to deal backstab damage to.
Sustain Minor: The target remains a valid target to deal backstab damage to until the end of your next turn. You may only use this sustain ability if none of your allies has hit the target since the end of your last turn.

That punishes teaming up too much.

Meek
2009-03-07, 03:37 PM
Backstab damage does not exist in 4e. Here's a cleaner version:

Distracting Blow + Rogue Attack 1
At-will + Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged Weapon
Special: This power may only be used with a light blade, crossbow or sling.
Attack: Dexterity -2 vs Will
Hit: 1[W] damage. Until the end of your next turn, you are treated as though you had combat advantage against the target for the purpose of applying Sneak Attack damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.
Sustain Minor: You are treated as though you had combat advantage against the target for the purpose of applying Sneak Attack damage. If an ally has attacked the target since your last turn, you cannot sustain this ability.

I think this version should be standard, as there's really no reason for it to exist except if you can't flank (especially since PHB2 has a feat allowing combat advantage from ranged against flanked targets). I think it should be Reflex, rather than Will, too.

Ninetail
2009-03-08, 06:32 AM
[QUOTE=Yakk;5862346]
Other strikers are capable of 'taking out the target in the back', but a Rogue who attempts that is probably going to be ridiculously weak.
[quote]

It's actually not that easy for other strikers to do so, either. Remember, Quarry and Curse can only be placed on the enemy nearest to the striker, so a ranger or warlock attacking the target in the back will be without his extra damage, too, unless the ranger or warlock is far enough from the party that that enemy is the nearest one. In which case, they're as exposed as the rogue would be.

(A beastmaster ranger does have things a little easier, since they can Quarry the enemy nearest their beast instead.)

Regardless, I think the balance issues are pretty much gone. I'd probably make it target AC instead of Will, but then, I'm mean. ^_-

Rigon
2009-03-09, 04:32 AM
"enemy nearest to you" and not "creature nearest to you if the creature is an enemy".
meaning you ignore allies (and "neutrals") and simply curse or quarry the nearest enemy. so the a ranger or warlock can pass their damage flags from the safe distance granted by the fellow paladin's shield.

a different way to look at it (without a "power"):

Keen Watch Rouge Class Feature
At-Will * Martial, Melee
Minor Action
You can place a your Keen Watch on the enemy nearest to you that you can see. A keenly watched enemy grants combat advantage to you while you take a -2 penalty to all of your attacks (both against the keenly watched enemy and every other target).
A Keen Watch remains in effect (whichever comes first):
- until the end of the encounter
- until the enemy is defeated
- until you lose consciousness or become otherwise helpless
- until you choose to end it with a free action
- until you choose to define a different target with a new Keen Watch Minor Action.
You can have only one keen watch active, but every rogue can place his/her own keen watch on the same enemy (each granting combat advantage and -2 attack penalty to a different rogue).

or something like that.

Yakk
2009-03-09, 01:55 PM
Sustain Minor: You are treated as though you had combat advantage against the target for the purpose of applying Sneak Attack damage. If an ally has attacked the target since your last turn, you cannot sustain this ability.
The downside of this version is that it is _too good_ if the Rogue is alone.

It means once you land the Distracting Strike, you get perma-backstab-damage -- you'll just start spamming your high-quality attacks. I was trying to aim for "you have to use this relatively crappy at-will when you miss to keep backstab damage going" mechanic.

...

The "Warlocks and Rangers" comment was already based on the W/R having to move past the party and hunt down the artillery/leader in the back. This is 'lurker' or 'skirmisher' mode for the striker.

W/R can apply their extra damage, once they are in position, without someone else helping them. The Rogue does not have a way to deal Sneak attack damage, without using a high-end utility power or burning every 2nd turn on sneaking behind a pillar (ie, relying on geometry, and halving his damage output), or burning specialized-for-debuffing encounter powers.

Maybe between those there are enough ways for a Rogue to get Sneak Attack damage by mid/high heroic tier.

Ninetail
2009-03-10, 04:05 AM
"enemy nearest to you" and not "creature nearest to you if the creature is an enemy".
meaning you ignore allies (and "neutrals") and simply curse or quarry the nearest enemy. so the a ranger or warlock can pass their damage flags from the safe distance granted by the fellow paladin's shield.


Well, yes, but my point was more the "taking out the target in the back" part.

If you're an archer-ranger and you're safe behind the paladin, then you can only target the nearest of the enemies -- which won't be the leader-type in the enemies' back row.

If, on the other hand, you're closest to the enemy in the back, making it a valid Quarry, then that almost by definition means you're exposed, with little or no allied support.

So even for a ranger or warlock, taking out the target in the back isn't necessarily easy.

Izmir Stinger
2009-03-10, 09:49 AM
If you have a DDI subscription, the most recent Dragon magazine has an article about assassins with a bunch of options for rogues who work alone.