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View Full Version : Possible 3.5 Monk Fix?(PEACH)



AirTony7
2009-03-03, 02:08 PM
Many people say that the monk seems underpowered compared to other core classes so I thought I would try to remedy that.

Monk
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Unarmed Damage|Speed Bonus|AC Bonus

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat, flurry of blows, unarmed strike|1d6|+0 ft.|+0

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat, evasion|1d6|+0 ft.|+0

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Mind over Matter|1d6|+10 ft.|+0

4th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|Ki strike (magic), Light as a Feather|1d8|+10 ft.|+0

5th|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|Purity of body, Pounce|1d8|+10 ft.|+1

6th|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat, Crane Walk|1d8|+20 ft.|+1

7th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+5|Wholeness of body|1d8|+20 ft.|+1

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+6|Ki strike (metallic)|1d10|+20 ft.|+1

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+6|
+6|Improved evasion|1d10|+30 ft.|+1

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+7|Ki strike (aligned), Tiger Speed|1d10|+30 ft.|+2

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+7|
+7|Diamond body, greater flurry|1d10|+30 ft.|+2

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+8|Abundant step, After Image|2d6|+40 ft.|+2

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+8|Diamond soul|2d6|+40 ft.|+2

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|Quivering palm|2d6|+40 ft.|+2

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+9|
+9|Disjoining Strike|2d6|+50 ft.|+3

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|Banishing Blow, Ki Sense|2d8|+50 ft.|+3

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|Timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon|2d8|+50 ft.|+3

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|Hide in Plain Sight|2d8|+60 ft.|+3

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Empty body|2d8|+60 ft.|+3

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Perfect self, Sever the Soul|2d10|+60 ft.|+4[/table]

Flurry of Blows has been changed to a -1 penalty, then no penalty at level 5.

Here is an explanation for the new class abilities (as well as modifications to some old abilities):

Mind Over Matter(Ex): Whenever a monk uses a unarmed strike or monk weapon you use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack and damage rolls.

Ki Strike(Ex): At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons. At 8th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as cold-iron, silver, or adamantine for the purposes of damage reduction, and bypassing hardness. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as aligned weapons for the purposes of damage reduction.

Light as a Feather(Ex): At 4th level the monk is continuously under the effects of the feather fall spell.

Crane Walk(Su): At 6th level the monk can channel Ki to their feet, allowing a monk to fly for a total number of minutes equal to their monk level at their current speed. (WIS modifier uses/day)

Tiger Speed(Su): At 10th level the monk can increase his metabolism allowing the monk to haste oneself for a total number of rounds equal to their monk level. (WIS modifier uses/day)

After Image(Su): At 12th level the monk's inhuman speed makes it seem as though he is everywhere, the monk can use mirror image to create 1d4+4 images. (WIS modifier uses/day)

Disjoining Strike(Su): At 15th level the monk can use his Ki to block the magical energies of his opponent. You must declare that you are using this before you make your attack roll, make a single unarmed attack at your highest attack bonus. If you strike with this attack make a dispel check (1d20+15) to end any on going magical effects on the target. This cannot be used on objects.(WIS modifier uses/day)

Banishing Blow(Su): At 16th level the monk can use his Ki to banish an opponent to a plane of your alignment. You must declare that you are using this before you make your attack roll, make a single unarmed attack at your highest attack bonus. If you strike with this attack the opponent the opponent is planeshifted to the chosen plane. (DC 10+1/2 monk levels+Wisdom modifier, will negates). (3/day)

Ki Sense(Ex): At 16th level the monk can use his Ki to sense his foes. The monk gains the benefits of Blindsight.

Hide in Plain Sight: At 18th level the monk can make a Hide check as long as no one is directly observing him.

Sever the Soul(Su): At 20th level the monk can use his Ki to imprison an opponent. You must declare that you are using this before you make your attack roll, make a single unarmed attack at your highest attack bonus. If you strike with this attack the opponent the opponent is imprisoned, as the spell Imprisonment (DC 10+1/2 monk levels+Wisdom modifier, will negates). (1/day)

Perfect Self: At 20th level the monk achieves the pinnacle of his training, the monk gains damage reduction 15/-, his unarmed strikes ignore any damage reduction, and he also gains the benefit of the Horizon Walker's Aligned (Planar) terrain mastery.

Occasional Sage
2009-03-03, 02:19 PM
Very Crouching Tiger. That's not condemnation or praise, just a thing.

I like the idea of nabbing the HW's Planar Terrain features; that fits very well with the idea of a monk as being perfectly in tune with themself. Clever!

Draz74
2009-03-03, 02:43 PM
Yes, this definitely fixes a lot of problems, at the cost of making the Monk extremely "wuxia," which doesn't fit some settings.


Hide in Plain Sight: At 18th level the monk can make a Hide check as long as no one is directly observing him.

I think this was supposed to be worded differently. :smallwink:

Fawsto
2009-03-03, 02:53 PM
@ Light as a Feather:

Allow the Monk to turn it off. Sometimes you WANT to fall at normal speed.

@ After Image:

It seems a little tricky... If the Monk is, by flavour, using his speed to do that, any attack to any of the Images, should, by definition, hit him, something not followed by the rules of Mirror Image... Another thing is that he should only be allowed to access this power once per day during Tiger Speed for Half the Ammount of Time he could spend in Tiger Speed.

@ Ki Sense:

Exclude things like Constructs and other Stuff that are not Living, since Ki, by definition, is lifeforce.


For everything else... I guess it is OK at a first glance.

Deckmaster
2009-03-03, 04:38 PM
Bah, I don't think Monks are underpowered at all. You just need to play it right.

A few tips for playing a Monk:
1. Resist the urge to multiclass. Some of the monks best abilities are at high levels.
2. Don't wear armor ever, even if the other party members insist on it. It will only get in the way. I know you don't get an AC bonus until fifth level, but at second level you get Evasion and at third level you start getting an unarmored speed bonus. These will be your best friends.
3. Don't use flurry of blows or fight unarmed until you are 4th level, when it starts getting useful. Until then, use a quarterstaff.
4. For your first feat, take Dodge.
5. For your first bonus feat, pick Improved Grapple. I know Stunning Fist seems impressive, but you aren't going to get as much use out of it as Improved Grapple. Any feat that helps you avoid attacks of opportunity are your friends. At second level, take Combat Reflexes. At 6th level, take Improved Disarm.
6. At third level, take Mobility.
7. Remember Ki Strike is written as being automatic to all unarmed attacks.
8. At sixth level, take Spring Attack. Now you can run in and out of combat with little difficulty and avoid being injured.
9. If you're in a tight spot and over 7th level, remember you can use Wholeness of Body in combat.
10. At 12th level, take Blind-Fight
11. If your over level 12, take advantage of Abundant Step as much as you can.
12. At 15th level, take Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike.
13. Quivering Palm may be impressive, but it's best use is as a threat to make hostile NPCs comply, not in combat.
14. Tongue of Sun and Moon makes you the perfect translator. That makes NPC monks useful as ambassadors.
15. At 18th level, take Improved Initiative.
16. Empty Body has any number of uses.
17. Perfect Self is what makes it worth carrying a Monk all the way to twentieth level. Keep that goal in mind as you level.
18. At 21st, 24th, 27th, and 30th level, take Armor Skin, Great Dexterity, Improved Spell Resistance, and Legendary Leaper (assuming you have enough ranks in Jump, Superior Initiative if you do not).
18. For Epic bonus feats, pick Improved Combat Reflexes and Epic Toughness.

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-03, 05:43 PM
Deckmaster, I take issue with your statements,and have written a response, contained in the spoiler below. If you would like to continue this discussion, I suggest going to Pm's or a thread in the proper place to as not derail this one.
Bah, I don't think Monks are underpowered at all. You just need to play it right.

A few tips for playing a Monk:
1. Resist the urge to multiclass. Some of the monks best abilities are at high levels.[QUOTE]
Such ad?
[QUOTE]2. Don't wear armor ever, even if the other party members insist on it. It will only get in the way. I know you don't get an AC bonus until fifth level, but at second level you get Evasion and at third level you start getting an unarmored speed bonus. These will be your best friends. Why? Evasion I understand, but it can be used with light armor. So why is the speed bonus oh so good? Surviving is too, and with out armor they have a Piss-Poor AC.

3. Don't use flurry of blows or fight unarmed until you are 4th level, when it starts getting useful. Until then, use a quarterstaff. Can't argue with this. Well, except for the insinuation that flurry becomes useful.

4. For your first feat, take Dodge.
A bad feat, with bad follow ups for the most part, though there are some gems. Too bad you don't suggest them.

5. For your first bonus feat, pick Improved Grapple. I know Stunning Fist seems impressive, but you aren't going to get as much use out of it as Improved Grapple. Any feat that helps you avoid attacks of opportunity are your friends. At second level, take Combat Reflexes. At 6th level, take Improved Disarm. Monks aren't that great at grappling, but this could find some uses if you get back to the casters. On the other hand, Improved Disarm is pretty bad if you intend to use unarmed strikes, as they are light weapons, thus getting a -4 penalty to the disarm check. Oh, and you have only medium BaB, already a handy cap.


6. At third level, take Mobility.
A bad feat, with bad prerequisites and bad follow ups for the most part, though there are some gems. Too bad you don't suggest them.

7. Remember Ki Strike is written as being automatic to all unarmed attacks.
And this is relevant how? You ignore certain types of Damage reduction. This is necessary because otherwise you wouldn't be able to deal any damage. So why does this make the monk good?

8. At sixth level, take Spring Attack. Now you can run in and out of combat with little difficulty and avoid being injured.
Of course, doing this means that the enemies won't be injured either.

9. If you're in a tight spot and over 7th level, remember you can use Wholeness of Body in combat.
Way to little healing. Main Melee characters can easily top the 14 damage you can heal at level 1. And their damage should be much higher 6 levels later.

10. At 12th level, take Blind-Fight
11. If your over level 12, take advantage of Abundant Step as much as you can.
12. At 15th level, take Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike.
Sound advice. Of course, since you only get 1 use of abundant step per day, not sure how useful it will actually be.


13. Quivering Palm may be impressive, but it's best use is as a threat to make hostile NPCs comply, not in combat.
So why does this make a monk better than anything else? Plus, considering how unreliable the ability is, I'd be more afraid of the wizard, who can do stuff like this several times a day, not once per week.


14. Tongue of Sun and Moon makes you the perfect translator. That makes NPC monks useful as ambassadors.
So...being good for NPC's makes it good for PC's how? Plus, Tongues and Comprehend Languages. Neither needs level 17 characters to pull off, either.


15. At 18th level, take Improved Initiative.
16. Empty Body has any number of uses.\
Neither the feat not ability is bad, per say, but the ability comes so late and with such limited uses that it really isn't all that great.


17. Perfect Self is what makes it worth carrying a Monk all the way to twentieth level. Keep that goal in mind as you level.
What? Why is this so great? You can't be effected by some good buff(enlarge person), and gain immunity to some weak(at this point) spells. Oh, and DR10/magic. So what? By this point, if what you're fighting doesn't have a way around this, it either does so much damage that 10 doesn't matter, or it isn't a threat.


18. At 21st, 24th, 27th, and 30th level, take Armor Skin, Great Dexterity, Improved Spell Resistance, and Legendary Leaper (assuming you have enough ranks in Jump, Superior Initiative if you do not).
18. For Epic bonus feats, pick Improved Combat Reflexes and Epic Toughness.
Can't comment on epic levels.


On topic, I like what you did with the class, though I might be tempted to combine this with one of the fixes that give it some way to enchant fists.

Deckmaster
2009-03-03, 09:34 PM
Deckmaster, I take issue with your statements,and have written a response, contained in the spoiler below. If you would like to continue this discussion, I suggest going to Pm's or a thread in the proper place to as not derail this one.

Didn't mean to derail the thread, sorry. I just love monks and hate it when people say they are underpowered.

Spoilered responses to your responses below.


Such ad?
Why? Evasion I understand, but it can be used with light armor. So why is the speed bonus oh so good? Surviving is too, and with out armor they have a Piss-Poor AC.

Speed is survival, when you're a Monk. When I play a monk, my character is most often saved thanks to his speed bonus. Plus, I even integrate it into my fighting style, as indicated below.


Can't argue with this. Well, except for the insinuation that flurry becomes useful.

Flurry of blows is insanely useful. At high levels, anyway. At tenth level, it becomes better than your base attack as you can attack three times with it at a similiar bonus. And unarmed you are doing 1d10 damage; better than a longsword. Not to mention your offhand attacks.


A bad feat, with bad follow ups for the most part, though there are some gems. Too bad you don't suggest them.

This feat is the first step to Spring Attack. Which is integral to the way I fight as a monk. Also, any bonus to AC is good.


Monks aren't that great at grappling, but this could find some uses if you get back to the casters. On the other hand, Improved Disarm is pretty bad if you intend to use unarmed strikes, as they are light weapons, thus getting a -4 penalty to the disarm check. Oh, and you have only medium BaB, already a handy cap.

This combination of feats is more about getting your opponent to lose the only advantages he may have against you. Monks aren't that great at grappling? What kind of Monks are you playing? The kind that spends all day copying manuscripts? You do realize that a high Strength bonus might be a good idea if you are a Monk, right? Might even be more important than Wisdom despite what the Player's Handbook says, but not Dex since any bonus to AC is good. Improved Disarm makes your opponent lose their weapon, thus putting you at the advantage.


A bad feat, with bad prerequisites and bad follow ups for the most part, though there are some gems. Too bad you don't suggest them.

See again the above. Same reasons both time.


And this is relevant how? You ignore certain types of Damage reduction. This is necessary because otherwise you wouldn't be able to deal any damage. So why does this make the monk good?

Just in case you forget about it when playing; it's an easy thing to forget. Do you see any other class features that let you break through damage reduction with your bare fists? I think not.


Of course, doing this means that the enemies won't be injured either.

Let me clarify; run in, flurry of blows, run out before you can get hit.:smallcool: Your speed lets you run out of the range of the character your fighting easily, and spring attack keeps them from getting an attack of opportunity.


Way to little healing. Main Melee characters can easily top the 14 damage you can heal at level 1. And their damage should be much higher 6 levels later.

This isn't a key ability; just something useful to remember. If you're playing right, at this point you shouldn't be getting hit that much anyway.


Sound advice. Of course, since you only get 1 use of abundant step per day, not sure how useful it will actually be.

It all depends on when you use it. In combat your speed and spring attack should keep you from needing to use it most of the time, but there are situations outside of combat when abundant step can be very helpful.


So why does this make a monk better than anything else? Plus, considering how unreliable the ability is, I'd be more afraid of the wizard, who can do stuff like this several times a day, not once per week.

My point here is actually that it doesn't. I never said Monks were the best class, just not underpowered. Quivering Palm is unreliable because it's an insta-kill; it's mostly for show. The use I mentioned is really the only way I can think to use it; if an NPC doesn't want to risk the monk killing him (whenever the heck he feels like it) with the Quivering Palm he just delivered, he will be more likely to comply.


So...being good for NPC's makes it good for PC's how? Plus, Tongues and Comprehend Languages. Neither needs level 17 characters to pull off, either.

No, it doesn't. That was a suggestion for DMs. But Monks don't need a) high intelligence or b) to waste spell slots or prepare the spell. It's automatic, which is why it's higher level.


Neither the feat not ability is bad, per say, but the ability comes so late and with such limited uses that it really isn't all that great.

Spoken like someone who has never played a 19th level monk. He becomes a better scout than a rogue with this, as he has no chance of being seen or attacked by mundane means. I can't remember how many times I used this when playing a high-level monk.


What? Why is this so great? You can't be effected by some good buff(enlarge person), and gain immunity to some weak(at this point) spells. Oh, and DR10/magic. So what? By this point, if what you're fighting doesn't have a way around this, it either does so much damage that 10 doesn't matter, or it isn't a threat.

You can't be targeted by any spell that targets humanoids. That means enemy casters are likely to target you with the wrong spell, not realizing you are an outsider. Also, with your high speed and armor bonus (now the same as scale mail without the check or speed penalties), plus the spring attack strategy above, you aren't likely to really need buffs anyway. Plus, there are spells that buff don't specify that they only buff humanoids. Also, damage reduction...you do realize that that is every time you are attacked. Creatures with multiple attacks which would devestate you otherwise now are mere annoyances. Creatures with more powerful, single attacks are likely using magic or a spell-like ability and therefore the damage reduction wouldn't help anyway...but Improved Evasion would.


Can't comment on epic levels.

Good, because at this point I'm just making stuff up. I played an epic level monk once, but I only took mundane feats. I can't remember what bonus feats I used, but these two seem good to me.


None of these are even mentioning Still Mind, Slow Fall, Purity of Body and Diamond Body which are equally useful but I couldn't think of anything to say about them. Timeless Body isn't inherently useful, but it's pretty damn cool.

A minor edit to my previous post: After getting spring attack, you should get started on the Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain. You'll also want to take Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting at epic levels, if you qualify. This makes Flurry of Blows much more useful.

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-04, 12:20 AM
Do you mind if I just make a thread in the RPG forum?