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afroakuma
2009-03-03, 06:27 PM
Darkness is here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZoiav4PoOA)

It is time for the tenth round of Vote Up A Villain.

And boy, am I steamed.

I post a contest to craft the blackest of black souls, the direst of darknesses, and what am I given?

• An evil flower motivated by love.
• A curious fairy.
• A giant ninja.
• An overgrown worm.
• A benevolent Death Star.
• A weenie little fish-man.
• A cube of bored enchanted goo.
• A freakin' ANIMAL.
• A sad sad monstrosity.

What is wrong with you people? I mean, come on!!! Animal and Vermin get a spin? I even tried reverse psychology in the last round, and it backfired completely! Do I have to force the powers of Darkness Itself upon you?

So be it.

I call upon the ancient and hallowed darkness that has challenged, terrified and slaughtered countless adventurers over the course of D&D. The creature types that until now have been denied me.

• From out of the earliest games, the traditional epic villains, Outsiders.

• From the continuing development throughout many editions, the dreadful evils, Undead.

• From our most recent editions, the unnatural nightmares, Aberrations.

• And harkening back to the very title of our game, the classic antagonists, Dragons.

And just to make sure this darkness is of the right scope, the stakes have once again been raised; not so drastically, but still above normal.


Let Darkness reign. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyoR-Pg6o0c)

(And please remember to bold your Dark vote.)

I am very pleased to at last present the resultant villain, Prystele the Golden!


Currently Voting On: Voting Closed, Villain Complete!

1. Dark Type: Undead


{table=head]Type|Votes
Aberration|13
Dragon|12
Outsider|4
Undead|16
[/table]

2. Race/Species: Lich
Vote for any Undead monster from any 3.X WotC source. The current table contains only undead from the Monster Manual. If you vote for a creature in another source, please list that source with your vote.

{table=head]Undead Form|Votes
Allip|
Bodak|
Devourer|
Entropic Reaper|1
Ghast|
Ghost|1
Ghoul|
Lich|21
Mohrg|
Mummy|3
Nightcrawler|
Nightwalker|3
Nightwing|
Shadow|
Skeleton|1
Spectre|
Unique (Corporeal Malevolence)|
Unique (Decayed)|
Unique (Facade)|
Unique (Incorporeal)|
Unique (Phantasm)|
Unique (Skeletal)|
Unique (Something Worse)|15
Vampire|
Vampire Spawn|
Wight|
Wraith|
Zombie|[/table]

2b. Class: Wizard
You may vote for other classes, but please bear in mind that certain classes have been disallowed. Non-core classes are italicized.

{table=head]Class|Votes|Class|Votes
Artificier||Ninja (new)|
Barbarian||Paladin|4
Bard||Psion|
Beguiler|4|Psychic Warrior|
Cleric|7|Ranger|
Crusader||Rogue|
Druid||Samurai (new)|1
Duskblade||Scout|
Favored Soul||Sorcerer|
Fighter||Swordsage|1
Healer||Warblade|
Hexblade||Warlock|4
Matador (new)||Wilder|
Marshal||Wizard|10
Monk||None|4
[/table]
{table=head]Write-In Class|Votes
Binder|1
Spellthief|1[/table]

3. Dark CR: 25

{table=head]CR|Votes
13|1
14|
15|1
16|
17|
18|
19|
20|
21|1
22|1
23|2
24|1
25|22
[/table]

4. Dark Alignment: Neutral Evil

{table=head]Alignment|Votes|Alignment|Votes|Alignment|Votes
Lawful Good||Neutral Good||Chaotic Good|
Lawful Neutral||Neutral||Chaotic Neutral|1
Lawful Evil|15|Neutral Evil|16|Chaotic Evil|8
[/table]

5. Dark Primary Motivation: Spite

{table=head]Motivation|Votes
Ambition|
Anarchy|
Arrogance|2
Curiosity|6
Depression|1
Entertainment|1
Envy|6
Greater good|1
Greed|
Hunger|1
Insanity|5
Justice|
Logic|
Love|
Malevolence|2
Order|
Punch-clock villainy|1
Rage|
Revenge|2
Selfishness|1
Self-loathing|
Spite|7
Survival|2
[/table]

And to get in the mood, try the link at the top of the page. Excellent Darkness music, I feel.

Lappy9000
2009-03-03, 06:46 PM
A thread.

Named "Darkness Is Coming."

By afroakuma.

....this can't be good.

afroakuma
2009-03-03, 06:51 PM
So tell all your friends! Get everyone over here!

The show will begin!

In a very awesome fashion! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DrunkOnTheDarkSide)

:smallbiggrin:

thegurullamen
2009-03-03, 06:52 PM
Woe to you, oh earth and sea/
For the devil sends the beast with wrath/
Because he knows the time is short.

Let him who hath understanding/
reckon the number of the beast/
for it is a human number./

Its number is five twenty eight five oh six four fifty one three twenty one two forty four one fourteen zero five-nine ought-one-trey triple oh.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

afroakuma
2009-03-03, 06:54 PM
You sure it isn't five oh six?

Llama231
2009-03-03, 07:06 PM
Let the LG epic nightwalker hijinks begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

afroakuma
2009-03-03, 07:08 PM
Let the LG epic nightwalker hijinks begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The word "no" comes to mind. 4:52

puppyavenger
2009-03-03, 08:18 PM
So whens the voting start?

Thane of Fife
2009-03-03, 08:55 PM
I suspect around midnight, giving the clues afroakuma's been dropping.
3:04

Did I get that right?

afroakuma
2009-03-03, 09:16 PM
*shrug* Who knows? :smallwink:

afroakuma
2009-03-03, 11:00 PM
The time of Darkness approaches.
1:00
Summon those you know.

Call forth all witnesses and celebrants.

arguskos
2009-03-03, 11:20 PM
I see what you did there afro. :smallwink:

The POWERMAN cometh! FLEE, FLEE FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!

afroakuma
2009-03-03, 11:40 PM
In all seriousness, though, as many of you as possible should join this one.

arguskos
2009-03-03, 11:43 PM
You know I'm all over this one. I've contributed fully to each one so far, and don't intent to let up now. :smallbiggrin: If I KNEW anyone else on the forums, I'd get them on it too. :smallcool:

afroakuma
2009-03-03, 11:51 PM
The Darkness draws ever nearer...
0:10
And the shrieking, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth were forewarned to be minimized...
That reads: minimal complaining, I pray of you.
For the Ultimate Darkness is prophesized to be...

Most Awesome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZYTLUk7Nwk)

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 12:11 AM
Ladies and gentlemen,


The Darkness has ARRIVED!!!

SlyGuyMcFly
2009-03-04, 12:13 AM
Could it be that I get the first vote?

DRAGON!

thegurullamen
2009-03-04, 12:14 AM
I see your dark contest and raise you one Undead. And considering this is going to go epic, it was difficult to refrain from voting outsider, but we need an undead, damn it.

kyoten
2009-03-04, 12:16 AM
Nothing brings in the Oh [email protected]% factor like a good 'ol Dragon!

LordZarth
2009-03-04, 12:21 AM
I want Ultimate Darkness, and nothing signifies this but Outsiders of Evil and Undead of Darkness.

We'll start with: Outsider!

PS: Afro, I am displeased that the CR caps at 25. Tut-tut.

UnChosenOne
2009-03-04, 12:31 AM
So that time have arrived when our Undead master arise from his tomb...

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 12:32 AM
PS: Afro, I am displeased that the CR caps at 25. Tut-tut.

Well, I didn't just want to repeat the special event that was the last contest that was a multiple of five.

This one is a different special event.

LordZarth
2009-03-04, 12:37 AM
Well, I didn't just want to repeat the special event that was the last contest that was a multiple of five.

This one is a different special event.

Good point. High CR does not make the awesome villain. Low CR ruins it, but 25+ is just extra. :smalltongue:

Gorgondantess
2009-03-04, 01:12 AM
Augh! No, no we need an aberration! Only the things that reside in the dark corners of the earth truly be the Ultimate Darkness! Ia! Ia!

The Tygre
2009-03-04, 01:17 AM
This must be the format of all your future VUAV contests from now on. Any other types of creature are special concessions. As for me, seeing as how I denied it to you on my last schpeal...

Undead. May the dark lord's hand guide us all.

Owrtho
2009-03-04, 01:42 AM
We must have an Aberration. After all, truly dark entities tell euclidean geometry to shove it.
And it listens out of fear
Owrtho

arguskos
2009-03-04, 01:51 AM
I vote that the Darkness be a Undead, for only the Undead may be possessed of TRUE Darkness.

Limos
2009-03-04, 02:02 AM
Put me down for Undead

I'm guessing afro is going to restrict the alignment vote as well. Would you like Chaotic, Lawful or Neutral evil with that monster?

Magnor Criol
2009-03-04, 02:03 AM
Undead are overrated.

Dragon.

Let's get old school here. :smallamused:

blackspeeker
2009-03-04, 02:05 AM
undead seems like the best most blackest of all blacks.

Daracaex
2009-03-04, 02:38 AM
Five votes for Dragon!

…What? I can only have one vote?

Fine… One vote for Dragon!

Adumbration
2009-03-04, 05:54 AM
I've had enough of these modern wussy dragons. I want the old days back, the bad days, when the very mention of a dragon drove fear down the spine of hapless warriors, when the likes of Ancalagon the Black and Ashardalon dominated the skies. Dragons these days, bwah. They used to be bad once.

My vote is for Dragon.

Luean
2009-03-04, 06:22 AM
Yay, darkness! I want an animal! I mean...yay, Undead

Sereg
2009-03-04, 06:49 AM
I vote aberration I want a Lovecraftian horror whoose mere presence has the POWER to make minds shatter.

The Bookworm
2009-03-04, 06:55 AM
A dragon. And scary, too.

Lord_Gareth
2009-03-04, 08:46 AM
Aberration - and you already know what I'm after, Afro. Cerebral horror, not body horror. Sorry Lovecraft, but you got boring.

Pictogram
2009-03-04, 08:55 AM
Outsider, eye wantz ah deval

THE_BIG_CHEESE
2009-03-04, 08:55 AM
Fools! You speak of evil? Then you must turn to those who have seen and can understand those evils which are alien and far beyond the scope of those whom you may turn to, who have experienced evils the very mention of which would drive even a mindless skeleton mad. Only the Abberations can understand evil from a darker, deeper pit than those overly political denizens of the lower planes, more eternal than those pathetic, shuffling, animate graves known as undead, and more powerful than the greedy, gold focused, overgrown lizards many call dragons.

You speak of darkness? What darkness is there greater than that beyond time and spice, the darkness between the darkness between planes, that darkness which few go to and none survive, save those who were born from it, the Abberations! I know many an adventurer who would spit upon the lower planes, enter the darkest crypts with naught but a gravedigger's shovel (and not the artifact one from Ravenloft that digs graves twice as fast), or who would laugh such that it echoed in the most cavernous of dragon's lairs, yet the mere mention of a place such as the Far Realm causes even his magical armor to rust at such a speed as to shame a rust monster.

It is the basest of sentient nature to fear that which you do not understand, and thusly you would fear most what you understand least, so who can claim to understand even the remotest fraction of the minds of the Abberations? None but the Abberations themselves. Those spawned of vile darkness so ancient that it makes the entire continuity of existence look young. Those who have no names in even the most debased and foul of languages, for nothing can even hope to convey the horror that should be inherently associated with the very implication of their name. Those whose power makes them comparable to gods in the same way that a god is comparable to an inanimate, fist sized clod of dirt, and to such a level that the only way to describe their level of power is Very Omnipotent. Only the entities who come from such beings can understand evil and darkness far beyond the very comprehension of even that pathetic serpent who sits in his overgrown hole, licking his wounds.

To quote the misfortuned George Gammell Angell, "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity; and it was not meant that we should voyage far." Friends, let us be MERCILESS!

(Edit: I had been attempting to edit the wall-ness of it as well as to bold my choice for the past few centuries since I made the post, but I was having some problems staying logged on and accessing the forums, infinite apologies.)

Lord_Gareth
2009-03-04, 08:58 AM
AH! The wall of text, it BURNS LIKE FIRE!

Cheese, tone it DOWN. Put some spaces in there, for the love of all that is (un)holy! You also need to bold your vote.

The Mentalist
2009-03-04, 10:07 AM
Undead Dragons?
If not then
Undead

Llama231
2009-03-04, 10:16 AM
UN-DEAD

Yes.

Zeta Kai
2009-03-04, 10:29 AM
Look on your works, ye mighty, and despair.

Undead.

osyluth
2009-03-04, 10:43 AM
The name of the game is dungeons and dragons.

Lord_Gareth
2009-03-04, 10:52 AM
Afro, the [censored] forums won't let me send a damn PM, so here's my response for you -


*Sigh* Okay, let me think..

[i]The Thing was cerebral. The Yreeks (of Animorphs fame) are cerebral horror. Cerebral horror is based on anxiety and paranoia; the fear that something might happen, and that you may not even know what it is when it occurs. Mind control, shapeshifters, and vampirism are examples of cerebral horror. It's more or less defined by the fear that you are the monster, not the enemy.

Most Aberrations, though, are based on body horror - the kind where your brains are eaten, or you get tentacle raped, or some horrid disease strikes you, or whatever.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 11:02 AM
I'd say the Thing hit the body horror notes as well... head scene, anyone?

But that's hardly a property constrained to aberrations.

Look up my Odivia, for example, or even just a Doppleganger.

Juhn
2009-03-04, 11:10 AM
beyond time and spice

Shouldn't that be "beyond thyme and spice", then?

This villain you propose promises to lack flavour.

Atelm
2009-03-04, 11:18 AM
Dragon? Yes, please, with loads of sugar, whipped cream, and a cherry on top. :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 11:19 AM
What, no vote, Juhn?

Thane of Fife
2009-03-04, 11:45 AM
I will continue supporting the much-maligned Outsider.

I prefer one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxxRV0SujDI) of these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYEYDwMsdDQ) over the song you've got, though.

puppyavenger
2009-03-04, 12:10 PM
I'm going to go with Outsider

LordShotGun
2009-03-04, 12:13 PM
Perhaps I have not read enough DnD source books but is seems there are not enough "OMG I just wet my pants" undead. There are plenty of dragons that do this to even the staunchest of heros and aberations are almost as bad.

So therefore I cast my vote towards a totally evil undead.

Juhn
2009-03-04, 12:21 PM
Of course I have a vote. You also already know what it is.

Mark me down for Undead, and hopefully this time my post goes through.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 12:23 PM
Atropal, but I guess you missed that one. :smallwink:

Wow, it seems that when you reduce options to the most powerful, most classic climactic battle types, everyone has an opinion. :smallbiggrin:

It also seems that when you reduce options, it starts to turn into a real contest. I am immensely pleased.

At this time, it's still anyone's game; we have over 11 hours remaining.

Magnor Criol
2009-03-04, 12:37 PM
If you do a pseudonatural half-fiend dragon, who then undergoes a dracolich transformation, you'd have all four categories covered in a decidedly dark fashion.

Just sayin'. =p
I now have the insatiable urge to go create just such a monstrosity.

Edge
2009-03-04, 01:09 PM
Only an Aberration can be considered the true master of the darkness of alien geometries and the cold space between the hungering stars.

Daracaex
2009-03-04, 01:13 PM
Did someone mention Lovecraft?

Because it's beginning to look a lot like fishmen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tTHn2tHhcI).

Lord_Gareth
2009-03-04, 01:26 PM
I'd say the Thing hit the body horror notes as well... head scene, anyone?

But that's hardly a property constrained to aberrations.

Look up my Odivia, for example, or even just a Doppleganger.

This does not change the fact that Aberrations nowadays focus on one of two things - psionics (Elan, Illithid) or body horror (Illithid, anything else).

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 01:30 PM
Or being weird (beholder)

Lord_Gareth
2009-03-04, 01:42 PM
Beholders vomit out their young and have been known to play telekinetic kickball with corpses. In any event, none of these sound like psychological terror, do they?

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 02:16 PM
Well sure, but nobody even knew that until Lords of Madness. Myself, I've always found them charmingly Lawful Evil. The Dungeon adventure with the beholder who stumbled into an antimagic field and hired adventurers to find out why it was there was quite good.

Mimics can play psychological horror... parts of your environment want to eat you. Will-o'-wisps are unnerving, bewildering and eerie.

Beyond the MM, fiyhrs are literally living dark emotions, the sussurus fills the nearby environment with an unnerving soft drone...

There are a few. Not that it matters; you'll never get them to play your game. :smalltongue:

Belobog
2009-03-04, 03:10 PM
Undead is the front runner? Undead? How did it even hold itself together long enough to get that far? :smalltongue:

We do not the stitched-together dredges of a once living being, a being that had its chance to bring about DARKNESS and failed. We do not need overgrown lizards, grown fat on avarice and paranoia, so afraid to see true DARKNESS that they barely leave the cold comfort of their lairs. We do not need "living" constructs, fully formed from the remains of mortal souls, materials so wavering and weak it is unthinkable to think they make anything at all, much less a being who understand the nature of DARKNESS. The universe itself has not conceived of such a nature...therefore, we need something that should never be.

Let thought freeze at the mention of its form.

Let the expansion of the universe halt at its name.

Let casualty crumble with its conception!

Give onto us an ABERRATION that shall consume the history of the universe itself!

For when existence has been erased of meaning, only then shall we have absolute DARKNESS.

*ahem*
Sorry, that kind of got away from me. But yeah, Aberration. Like, totally.

Rockbird
2009-03-04, 03:33 PM
As i like my villains with a large slice of ham (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LargeHam), i'll say undead!

Because, y'know, you can take a slice of ham off've them and they'll still be fine...

Juhn
2009-03-04, 03:42 PM
If Atropals are what I think they are, then they freak me right out for the same reason your last villain does.

And not in a pleasantly chilling way.

LordZarth
2009-03-04, 08:29 PM
Hmm. Well.

-1 Outsider
+1 UNDEAD of DARKNESS

Gorgondantess
2009-03-04, 08:48 PM
Gah! Aberration is losing! What's wrong with you people!?!?!
I mean, really, undead? Dragons? Pffft. The least you could do was go for an outsider, if not THE ONLY TRUE DARKNESS. Sadly, it's not beginning to look like fishmen.

Vadin
2009-03-04, 08:48 PM
ABERRATIONS! Give me an excellent villain that is an aberration, sir! What we need is a cthonic villain to chill us to our very souls!

Alteran
2009-03-04, 08:55 PM
Abberation, people! Don't you see it's the only way?

mindflayermindflayermindflayermindflayeraboleth?

Saint Nil
2009-03-04, 08:58 PM
Dear lord THANK YOU! I've been waiting for this.

Give me an Dragon. Not a normal dragon either. I want one serious BAMF dragon. One worthy of being called the monster that put Dragon into Dungeons and Dragons.

Zocelot
2009-03-04, 09:03 PM
Abberation has my vote.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 09:08 PM
Dear afroakuma THANK YOU! I've been waiting for this.

Fixed that for you. Although curiously...

Now everyone go listen to the track at the top of the first post. And picture it as the battle music for the villain you crave.

LordZarth
2009-03-04, 09:11 PM
Although curiously...

I see what you did thar... I've always wanted to say that.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 09:12 PM
If Atropals are what I think they are, then they freak me right out for the same reason your last villain does.

And not in a pleasantly chilling way.

Yeah. I know what you mean. And they are totally what you think they are.

<-- knows all darkness on a first name basis.


I see what you did thar... I've always wanted to say that.

*shrug* Sure, but you have absolutely no clue what I meant. :smalltongue: Nyah.

Llama231
2009-03-04, 09:14 PM
Now everyone go listen to the track at the top of the first post. And picture it as the battle music for the villain you crave.

Awesomely epic, but not so evil or dark.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 09:23 PM
Awesomely epic, but not so evil or dark.

What on Earth are you talking about?

I would concur that that description applies to the track at the bottom of the first post... which is still great.

LordZarth
2009-03-04, 09:27 PM
*shrug* Sure, but you have absolutely no clue what I meant. :smalltongue: Nyah.

I thought you were just drawing comparison. :smallamused:

Thane of Fife
2009-03-04, 09:30 PM
Now everyone go listen to the track at the top of the first post. And picture it as the battle music for the villain you crave.

I already told you - I think that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxxRV0SujDI) and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYEYDwMsdDQ) are better (well, more evil, anyway).

And, out of curiosity, why isn't humanoid on the list? They're perhaps the most traditional villain of all.

Szilard
2009-03-04, 09:34 PM
Outsiders for the win.

dracoslaad
2009-03-04, 09:42 PM
Dragon. A great dragon spreading darkness across the world...

evil-frosty
2009-03-04, 09:48 PM
I am going to vote DRAGON to hopefully get a classic villain

Agrippa
2009-03-04, 09:51 PM
Undead. I would have really liked outsider though, but it obviously won't win. I'd like to see a really nasty light based villain, like a solar with Dicefreaks' fallen angel template. Better luck next time I guess.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 09:52 PM
I already told you - I think that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxxRV0SujDI) and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYEYDwMsdDQ) are better (well, more evil, anyway).

And I ignored you, because a) I was at work at the time and b) you're preposterously wrong. :smalltongue:

Fine, what about something perverse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyntbkSdPfs), hateful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzoy26Wj8I0), classic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ios6zLDR8AI), sorrowful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuUm-dmeegE&feature=related) or just plain dull (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5ODyaO5DU8&feature=related)?


And, out of curiosity, why isn't humanoid on the list? They're perhaps the most traditional villain of all.

Because we had one? Shut up, you.

Drogorn
2009-03-04, 10:15 PM
Abberations lurk in the darkness between planes, where the true aliens are kindness, goodness, and love.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 10:20 PM
Seriously folks: spelling lesson.

Aberration is spelled with one "B" and two "R"s.

If I refused to count improperly spelled votes, your cause would never stand a chance. :smalltongue:

watsyurname529
2009-03-04, 10:28 PM
Hm, that's the same thing for Eberron as well. Which also ticks me off.

Anyway, I vote for Aberration. I want the Gods (and Demons and Devils, etc) themselves to quake when they hear its name; tremble at the thought of its footsteps; panic if they know it's near; let loose shrieks worse than a banshee when they hear it; and cry to blind themselves with tears at the mere shadow of it.

Otherwise if Undead wins, you better sell part of your soul for more dark power to create an Undead worthy of an Aberrant horror.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 10:32 PM
Otherwise if Undead wins, you better sell part of your soul for more dark power to create an Undead worthy of an Aberrant horror.

Excuse me? You think I have insufficient POWER?!

Because if you believe that my POWER could possibly not be up to par... then that would mean that...

Who wants to say it? I know one of you does. Go ahead.

aje8
2009-03-04, 10:34 PM
Undead is winning? Undead are kinda cliche and boring.
Dragons are also cliche.
Outsiders are interesting.... if I didn't just know somehow it'd be a Devil or Demon and be boring and cliche.

Aberration. Aberration. Aberration. Aberration.

watsyurname529
2009-03-04, 10:38 PM
Excuse me? You think I have insufficient POWER?!

Because if you believe that my POWER could possibly not be up to par... then that would mean that...

Who wants to say it? I know one of you does. Go ahead.

I didn't mean it like that, or for you to take it that seriously. Just that if Undead wins, you'll need more power to create something as horrific as an Aberration of less power. I.E Aberration is more horrific than Undead.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 10:50 PM
My friends and I would like to disagree with you.

They being Bob (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_K5IIY6T5-v0/SBJCtDSeOQI/AAAAAAAANGk/gqyfIMO6ZEM/s320/44165_C5_atropal.jpg) (Warning: Disturbing Graphic)

And Bobby Jr. (http://nightmare.org/dnd/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=11061&g2_serialNumber=1) (Warning: Disturbing Graphic)

Bob's pal Lenny (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84733.jpg) would also like a word. (Warning: Less Disturbing Graphic)

Alteran
2009-03-04, 10:53 PM
Excuse me? You think I have insufficient POWER?!

Because if you believe that my POWER could possibly not be up to par... then that would mean that...

Who wants to say it? I know one of you does. Go ahead.

It would mean that...his head cut off? I'm really not sure this time.

Edit: I don't know about the first two, but I believe that Lenny is a Rot Harbinger.

Shadow_Elf
2009-03-04, 10:55 PM
Hrhmmm....

Some wish me to cast my ballot for Aberration.

Myself, I would prefer something Iconic... Or Draconic.

Afro, it is only right that your most Iconic VuaV is the most Iconic monster of DnD history...

Gimme a Dragon with a side of DARKE POWER if ya don't mind.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 10:57 PM
Don't you mean Drake Power? :smalltongue:

Shadow_Elf
2009-03-04, 11:00 PM
No, I mean Dark, Shakespearean English-style.

MammonAzrael
2009-03-04, 11:01 PM
Aberrations may be strange and unknowable, but at least they're alive. At least you can stick them with pointy metal until they fall down. You can still kill them. For the true Darkness, I demand the Undead to rise, and show their true terror. Vecna is a *****, I want real mastery over death.

Lappy9000
2009-03-04, 11:01 PM
While not quite the blackest darkness of darkest blackness, Aberrations still hold their sway over the feeble minds of man. Why, simply reading this v'te is e'noght to dr've a m'hn m'hdd as'sh hj'e f'llhs de'pp'r nntoo t'tje bll'khst ehv'llivs of'fh Ll'vcrf'thaan horr'jr. Congratulations! You're insane now!

Shadow_Elf
2009-03-04, 11:05 PM
Also, afro, you may consider narrowing the Class List to maximize the Dark potential.
Drop anything that sounds remotely unthreatening or good, IMHO. Scout (not evil), Paladin (unless its Tyranny or Destruction, not evil) Monk (doesn't sound evil), and Bard (doesn't sound remotely evil).

Also, Might I suggest removing as options anything that has previously won the class vote?

Juhn
2009-03-04, 11:06 PM
Dammit afro, I need a way of telling when your warnings are genuine. *Shudder*

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 11:11 PM
Also, afro, you may consider narrowing the Class List to maximize the Dark potential.
Drop anything that sounds remotely unthreatening or good, IMHO. Scout (not evil), Paladin (unless its Tyranny or Destruction, not evil) Monk (doesn't sound evil), and Bard (doesn't sound remotely evil).

Meh. They feed me Paladin, and it'll either go Miko or blackguard. :smallamused:


Also, Might I suggest removing as options anything that has previously won the class vote?

Nah; I'll just hit people who vote for them with the Quashhammer.


Dammit afro, I need a way of telling when your warnings are genuine. *Shudder*

I tried to be legit... the warnings were in bold.

Which one got you? First one?

Lappy9000
2009-03-04, 11:19 PM
Nah; I'll just hit people who vote for them with the Quashhammer.Ah'hll s'hjall fyhrr t'hje POWER! of'fh t'hje a'hhlmjhty AFHRU'HULU! Ah'hll ha'yll AFHRU'HULU! Ah'hll ha'yll AFHRU'HULU!

LordZarth
2009-03-04, 11:23 PM
Ah'hll s'hjall fyhrr t'hje POWER! of'fh t'hje a'hhlmjhty AFHRU'HULU! Ah'hll ha'yll AFHRU'HULU! Ah'hll ha'yll AFHRU'HULU!

Er, the POWER! doesn't change just to accommodate any old logography.

Thane of Fife
2009-03-04, 11:30 PM
And I ignored you, because a) I was at work at the time and b) you're preposterously wrong. :smalltongue:

Fine, what about something perverse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyntbkSdPfs), hateful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzoy26Wj8I0), classic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ios6zLDR8AI), sorrowful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuUm-dmeegE&feature=related) or just plain dull (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5ODyaO5DU8&feature=related)?


That first one was good, but the other three didn't quite do it for me. And I can't agree on any of those being more evil than Fusion Dragon.

Check this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8txk6EhYZKA)
one out (I believe it has strong language, but it's not in English, so...). Be sure to watch it - the song itself isn't that evil.

[QUOTE=afroakuma]Because we had one? Shut up, you.

Fair enough.

afroakuma
2009-03-04, 11:34 PM
Umm... that was supposed to be dark?

I think you and I may have drastically different ideas about what we're looking for.

Gorgondantess
2009-03-04, 11:35 PM
Aberrations may be strange and unknowable, but at least they're alive. At least you can stick them with pointy metal until they fall down. You can still kill them. For the true Darkness, I demand the Undead to rise, and show their true terror. Vecna is a *****, I want real mastery over death.

....Ehem? Excuse me? Aberrations aren't alive. Nor are they dead. They are above such petty labels. As spoken by the ever wise, and mad, Abdul Alhazred,
That is not dead
Which can eternal lie
And with strange eons
Even death may die

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 12:08 AM
Well, the votes have been tallied (an impressive 40+, no less!) and the result is Undead!

Now, this decaying darksider needs a... Race? Species? er... Genus?... huh.

Form. We'll go with form.

On a side note, it's really tough coming up with Uniques for Undead. Anyone want to help tidy the list, or is it good?

Alteran
2009-03-05, 12:16 AM
There are a few I don't see, but they're all pretty specific (larva mage, rot harbinger, flameskull, immolith, etc.), so I think those can probably be left out.

My vote goes to Nightwalker.

Juhn
2009-03-05, 12:16 AM
The status of the uniques matters not to me, for I am voting Nightwalker. Let's go towering being of pure Shadow.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 12:18 AM
There are a few I don't see, but they're all pretty specific (larva mage, rot harbinger, flameskull, immolith, etc.), so I think those can probably be left out.

My Monster Manual, you. Not the 4E one. :smalltongue:

Magnor Criol
2009-03-05, 12:21 AM
Aberrations aren't alive. Nor are they dead. They are above such petty labels.

My aasimar's glaive would like to disagree with you. The otyughs, ethereal filchers, and mind flayers it's had contact with in the past are, most decidedly, dead.

I'll have to think about this for a bit...tempted to go corporeal malevolence, because malevolence is a fun word. But then...how can I resist the lure of "Unique: Something Worse"? I mean...honestly.

Yeah. Unique: Something Worse, because that's just the sort of blank check afro needs.

LordZarth
2009-03-05, 12:21 AM
Um, this isn't obvious?

Unique: Something Worse

IE, any of the above uniques. But worse.

Cackle.

(PS: Juhn, where can I find this nightwalker?)

thegurullamen
2009-03-05, 12:23 AM
Lich

I want to see if 'akuma can top the lich that created the Tomb of Horrors.

Magnor Criol
2009-03-05, 12:25 AM
(PS: Juhn, where can I find this nightwalker?)

Right here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightwalker)

Gorgondantess
2009-03-05, 12:26 AM
What?!? Nooooo! Just 3 votes away! such an impressive comeback.... Mehhhhhhh....
Undead can never be the dark, but we'll have to come close with Unique: (something worse).
Or would it be possible to go for a unique: (aberrant)?:smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 12:31 AM
Unique: Something Worse, because that's just the sort of blank check afro needs.

People liked it so much last time, and I can think of few types that deserve it more. :smallbiggrin:

Juhn's going to kill me, of course... cnsvnc won't be far behind.

Limos
2009-03-05, 12:35 AM
Let's go with the old standby Lich! That's about as classical undead as it gets.

blackspeeker
2009-03-05, 12:38 AM
Unique (something worse) just seems to be made of win.

Alteran
2009-03-05, 12:43 AM
My Monster Manual, you. Not the 4E one. :smalltongue:

You've got five Monster Manuals, they're not in any of them? :smallconfused:

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 12:47 AM
They're not in the first one, so they have to be voted as a write-in. If I searched every Monster Manual for appropriate creatures, life would become painful rather quickly.

Daracaex
2009-03-05, 12:52 AM
Unique (Something Worse)

Because it sounds by far the darkest…

Owrtho
2009-03-05, 12:58 AM
Unique (Something Worse). Is there realy any other choice?

Owrtho

arguskos
2009-03-05, 12:59 AM
As much as I want to see a Nightwalker villain, it's just not going to happen here. Sorry Juhn, I have to vote Unique (Something Worse).

Also, afro, where my villain at? :smalltongue:

Gorgondantess
2009-03-05, 01:11 AM
Do we even really need to vote on this one....? Seriously, let's just call it unique: something worse and move onto the next step.

SlyGuyMcFly
2009-03-05, 01:46 AM
So Undead wins. Oh well, its a nice type, plenty of evil tradition. And in keeping with my desire of a more classic villain, I vote Lich

Oh, and also:


[...] Bard (doesn't sound remotely evil).


:smallannoyed:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb177/ClericofPhwarrr/bards.jpg

Adumbration
2009-03-05, 01:50 AM
My vote goes to the Entropic Reaper from Libris Mortis, page 98.

Picture:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84751.jpg

Sereg
2009-03-05, 02:12 AM
I thin that for this particular vote there is only one real option unique (something worse)

Atelm
2009-03-05, 02:49 AM
Hmm, a Vampire or a Lich...? I'll go with a Vampire.

Belobog
2009-03-05, 03:02 AM
While I would love to vote for an Angel of Decay from Libris Mortis, I know that it'll never pass.

Therefore, I'm jumping on the Unique: Something Worse bandwagon, just to make it that much more unshakable.

Razzin' frazzin' Undead philistines.

UnChosenOne
2009-03-05, 03:09 AM
I vote for Unique (Something Worse).

DrakebloodIV
2009-03-05, 03:18 AM
I've got an itch to see the lich who will throw you in a ditch and stab you with his switch as he beats you like a <Naughty word> with a grin and an eye twitch.

Word

paddyfool
2009-03-05, 04:30 AM
I'd like a new spin on the good old lich

Talvara
2009-03-05, 06:46 AM
Skeleton (goblin if possible)

Dont hate me for complication :P.
goodluck, ill check back now and then :)

The Bookworm
2009-03-05, 06:51 AM
Liches are good, but I'm going to go with Unique (Something Worse)!

Zeta Kai
2009-03-05, 06:58 AM
As much as I'd like to vote for a lich, a vampire, or a nightwalker, I feel compelled to vote for Unique (Something Worse).

Also, there seem to be many here who doubt Afro's POWER.

vegetalss4
2009-03-05, 07:12 AM
i think juhn should have his Nightwalker, he has worked so hard for it.
AND it would make a VERY dark villian. is it will get my vote

Pronounceable
2009-03-05, 07:25 AM
So I don't check the forums for one day, and I miss the type. I care not, I shall vote nevertheless. Undead.

And it's shocking to see so little love for outsiders. What have they ever done to you?
...
I sense an arrogance in the POWER as if a million homebrews received universal praise. Not that they didn't, or I don't approve of arrogance; but beware the hype. E.g. This had better be better than sliced bread.

As for race, my opinion is that Afro's angling for the classic DnD feel here. And you don't get much classic DnDy than lich. Though "something worse" sounds awesome, we're talking about undead here. He'd have to top the shamblingstitchedtogetherabortedbabiesmound of (uh..) Demented(?). Something worse for undead has been done conclusively. Is that a challenge?



People liked it so much last time, and I can think of few types that deserve it more. :smallbiggrin:

Juhn's going to kill me, of course... cnsvnc won't be far behind.

I shall endeavor to ensure your survival till the coming of the almighty Bladed Blob. But after that...

Thane of Fife
2009-03-05, 07:34 AM
How about a Mummy.

And yeah, that last video wasn't dark at all. Eh, I was tired.

Username
2009-03-05, 07:45 AM
Mummies don't get nearly enough love. They used to be powered by positive energy in previous editions you know, sort of like proto-deathless (which I think are a silly concept, but whatever).

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 07:49 AM
Entropic Reaper Details:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84751.jpg
Entropic reapers are undead from Limbo, "charged" by chaotic powers with the slaying of all it decides must die. It accomplishes this with an enormous entropic scythe.

LordShotGun
2009-03-05, 08:01 AM
In Afro we trust, I vote for Unique Something Worse

Edit: Sorry I forgot to put what kind of unique I wanted

Juhn
2009-03-05, 08:41 AM
Heh; as soon as I saw Something Worse my immediate reaction was basically "Well crap. Here we go again..."

I'm still relatively confident that I can get my Nightwalker, but I'm more than a little worried that if I don't get it, any further attempts to push for a Nightwalker will be met with "We've already done Undead!"

I say this to anyone who voted for Outsider: With a Nightwalker, you get a towering mass of evil from the Plane of Shadow. That's pretty close.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 08:44 AM
*shrug* Unique (Corporeal Malevolence) is that except not necessarily humanoid.

Thane of Fife
2009-03-05, 08:57 AM
I say this to anyone who voted for Outsider: With a Nightwalker, you get a towering mass of evil from the Plane of Shadow. That's pretty close.

This is not horseshoes, hand grenades, or nuclear war. There is no close.

Lord_Gareth
2009-03-05, 09:02 AM
Unique: Something Worse - because nightwalkers are lame.

(And Afro, there's plenty of options for unique undead. And if you find yourself stymied, try opening up the Class vote for some inspiration ^_^ )

Debihuman
2009-03-05, 09:13 AM
For "Ultimate Darkness", Unique (Something Worse) sounds like a win to me.

Debby

Atelm
2009-03-05, 09:29 AM
Seeing as Vampire doesn't have a fighting chance, and Lich was my alternative pick. I'll change my vote.

-1 Vampire
+1 Lich

Rockbird
2009-03-05, 09:36 AM
Unique (Something Worse).

As has already been stated, there's really no other choice.

THE_BIG_CHEESE
2009-03-05, 09:39 AM
Unique (Something Worse)

Llama231
2009-03-05, 09:47 AM
Nightwalker, but ther is not much hope...

Juhn
2009-03-05, 09:50 AM
Hey now, we haven't even hit the halfway mark yet. Nightwalker could still pull through.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 11:31 AM
(And Afro, there's plenty of options for unique undead.

Clearly you missed my problem, which was that there are too many options for unique undead. I have, what, seven classifications there? And I'm not sure if those need to be expanded, narrowed, shuffled...


And if you find yourself stymied, try opening up the Class vote for some inspiration ^_^ )

You just want to spoil it by sticking a Harrowed in or something. :smalltongue:

Juhn
2009-03-05, 12:06 PM
Yes, but all the other options become irrelevant when "Something Worse" is included. Same goes for non-unique options, it seems. :smallsigh:

Adumbration
2009-03-05, 12:11 PM
One question: Why do you have Matador as a class option? No offense, but I don't think even you could pull off an undead creature that harries bulls for a profession.

Thane of Fife
2009-03-05, 12:11 PM
You just want to spoil it by sticking a Harrowed in or something.

That would actually be appropriate - in the game which I believe he derived Harrowed from, Harrowed are the most common type of undead.

And, not Dark, but nonetheless good for introducing a villain, while giving the impression that things are about to start turning around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j796bUK40hA

Lord_Gareth
2009-03-05, 12:31 PM
@Thane - the Harrowed have almost nothing to do with the Deadlands version, as was warned at the top of the thread. In any event, I'd actually probably vote for Spellthief or a PrC (since many PrCs don't actually require class levels per se). Epheremal Examplar and Lurking Terror are fun undead-exclusive ones, and god only knows there's enough homebrew PrCs hanging around these forums.

MammonAzrael
2009-03-05, 12:41 PM
Yeah, I don't think I can go for anything but Unique: Something Worse.

Lappy9000
2009-03-05, 12:47 PM
I don't trust afro with his Unique (Something Worse) option. I even suspect.... (http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg)

I'm reading through the OoTS archives, and we could really use a good lich. *ahem*

I summon up from the pits of direst darkest darkness of blackness the almighty Lich!

Edge
2009-03-05, 01:17 PM
Only something Unique, something worse, is dark enough for this.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 03:08 PM
Adumbration: Clearly you've never read my Matador.

Mine is a flamboyant, dextrous killer who fights for the risk. I'm not talking about wearing down a bull, I'm talking about climbing a dragon and one-shotting it through the forehead.

To the rest: I remind you that Unique (Something Worse) doesn't have to be more gruesome or horrific, just less understandable or commonplace. Granted, it'll probably still blow out the freaky meter, but I don't have to do that.

Examples of the others:

Corporeal Malevolence is something created wholly by unlife, with neither vital origin nor opportunity for such. A Nightwalker is a Corporeal Malevolence.

Decayed are remnants of a living thing, relatively intact though clearly fouled. Zombies are Decayed.

Facades are unliving, but either have a special ability or are simply well-preserved enough to mimic a living mortal. Vampires are Facades.

Incorporeals... duh. Wraiths are Incorporeals.

Phantasms have no physical form or incorporeal shape. They are sentient unlife that strike via possession, through dreams or even simply through sensations of disquiet. There are no Phantasms that I am aware of in any WotC source; the closest approximations are Jahi and Effigies.

Skeletals have abandoned their once-living flesh, maintaining a corporeal form out of the bare minimum required to be physically animate. Liches may be Decayed, but are often Skeletals.

kyoten
2009-03-05, 03:14 PM
Ghost has my vote.

Adumbration
2009-03-05, 03:31 PM
Clearly you've never read my matador.

Mine is a flamboyant, dextrous killer who fights for the risk. I'm not talking about wearing down a bull, I'm talking about climbing a dragon and one-shotting it through the forehead.

Somehow I can't see a Nightwalker being flamboyant, for one example. I'm sorry, but the mental image persists. A huge undead, dressed in traditional matador costume, including tight red pants, waving a red flag. :smallbiggrin:

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 03:38 PM
*shrug* So try it then. See what happens.

Vote Nightwalker/Matador in '09. :smallbiggrin:

watsyurname529
2009-03-05, 04:19 PM
Well, aberration still should have won in my opinion. Anyway, to make the best out of what has been given, Unique (Something Worse).

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 04:24 PM
Well, aberration still should have won in my opinion.

On what grounds? The fact that it came in second and tried really hard?

The Mentalist
2009-03-05, 04:37 PM
Unique (Something Worse)

Because afro is awesome

pyrefiend
2009-03-05, 05:10 PM
Yes, but all the other options become irrelevant when "Something Worse" is included. Same goes for non-unique options, it seems. :smallsigh:
Yeah, I'm really not seeing why we need a "Something Worse" category. It's like labeling everything else "Something You Shouldn't Vote For". But, whatever, I'll vote for nightwalker in case it matters.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 05:31 PM
*shrug* It's not like I don't have a couple of ideas for it, but really, I don't see what the big deal is. Why all the excitement. I mean, it's actually pretty contrary to the point of this round.

Stuff like the ulgurstasta (http://nightmare.org/dnd/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=257&g2_serialNumber=1), which vomits zombies, would be Something Worse. But then, so is this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fightclub_brain.jpg). I don't think I need to tell you its name. It makes me sad.

...you can also look up the image of a Dessicator, but I'd suggest that you not. It kind of builds on the Atropal idea, taking a harlequin baby to its logical conclusion.

Serious Warning: I am referring to the medical condition known as harlequin type icthyosis. This is a rare and debilitating medical condition present from birth that is considered by many to be highly disturbing. I ask that those of you who are squeamish or put off by the sight of a suffering infant not search for these images.

Back to business: Skin kites and skulking cysts are Something Worse, but so are raiments and tomb motes. So I really don't follow what the predilection for Something Worse is all about.

Vadin
2009-03-05, 05:40 PM
Mummy, most definitely. They're some of the only ones with an EXCUSE to have a huge evil dungeon around them.

Juhn
2009-03-05, 06:04 PM
So, something worse is an unliving disease or being made of dessicated flesh? Now I know why I didn't vote for it.

We also already have a Silent Hill d20 project going, and this would appear to essentially just be another one of those.

Shadow_Elf
2009-03-05, 06:10 PM
LICH. We need either:

a) a Beholder Lich
b) a Mind Flayer Lich
c) a Dracolich

to combine the most Darke and terrifying aspects of everything!

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 06:15 PM
Psssh. You didn't vote for it because there was never any doubt as to what you were going to vote for.

And no, that is not what I said. I said that Something Worse could range from a zombie-vomiting Overmind to living earth infused with the souls of the damned to an awakened brain in a jar. It doesn't have to be some nebulous terror.

Juhn
2009-03-05, 06:41 PM
Well, more reasons not to vote for it, then.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 06:47 PM
You're going to have to convince them, not me. And the negative campaigning doesn't seem to be working.

watsyurname529
2009-03-05, 06:49 PM
Psssh. You didn't vote for it because there was never any doubt as to what you were going to vote for.

And no, that is not what I said. I said that Something Worse could range from a zombie-vomiting Overmind to living earth infused with the souls of the damned to an awakened brain in a jar. It doesn't have to be some nebulous terror.

Basically it could be extremely awesome, or only so-so awesome.

puppyavenger
2009-03-05, 06:53 PM
unique something worse experience dictates that the unique ones are awesomeer.

Reverent-One
2009-03-05, 07:03 PM
I'll vote Nightwalker, though once unique(something else) became an option, this vote was over.

evil-frosty
2009-03-05, 07:05 PM
it is a forgone conclusion but i will still vote for unique(something worse) hoping for the nebulous terror

The Tygre
2009-03-05, 07:13 PM
I throw my hat in for Unique (Something Worse). Perhaps something far, far worse...

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 07:31 PM
once unique(something else) became an option, this vote was over.

I have been attempting to campaign for the classic options, you know.

I've pointed out several times now that it is not the most interesting option...

You folks who voted Unique (Something Worse), tell me: if it had not been an option, what would you have voted for?

Juhn
2009-03-05, 07:37 PM
Well, now we've got

*shrug* So try it then. See what happens.

Vote Nightwalker/Matador in '09. :smallbiggrin:
And on the subject of Unique: Something Worse:

I mean, it's actually pretty contrary to the point of this round.
Really though, what's more evil than a towering mass of pure darkness?

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 07:41 PM
He dared me. I had to.

Using my quotes as campaign slogans is a bit non-kosher, there.


Really though, what's more evil than a towering mass of pure darkness?

A towering mass of purer darkness: Unique (Corporeal Malevolence)

Nyah. :smalltongue:

The Tygre
2009-03-05, 07:48 PM
I have been attempting to campaign for the classic options, you know.

I've pointed out several times now that it is not the most interesting option...

You folks who voted Unique (Something Worse), tell me: if it had not been an option, what would you have voted for?

Well, I'd personally vote for Nightwalker if I couldn't have unique. But this couldn't be just any Nightwalker; this thing would have to be huge. I mean, when it passes by, shadows cover the land and raise the dead. We're talking Czernobog from Fantasia. In fact, if I recall, I once saw stats from Czernobog somewhere that had him statted out as some kind of Nightwalker. I think it was on DiceFreaks, long ago.

Szilard
2009-03-05, 07:49 PM
I shall vote for Lich.

Juhn
2009-03-05, 07:53 PM
Using my quotes as campaign slogans is a bit non-kosher, there.

I prefer to think of it as "evidence". But seriously, those were meant to come across as more tongue-in-cheek than it apparently did. Sorry about that. Still sleep-deprived and my judgment is off.


A towering mass of purer darkness: Unique (Corporeal Malevolence)

Nyah. :smalltongue:

Well, if I had to vote for a Unique that would definitely be it. Still, the fact that the Nightwalker is the example for that category has to count for something.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 07:55 PM
Well, I'd personally vote for Nightwalker if I couldn't have unique.

I didn't say you couldn't have Unique. I said if you couldn't have Unique (Something Worse). The other Uniques would still be on the table.


We're talking Czernobog from Fantasia. In fact, if I recall, I once saw stats from Czernobog somewhere that had him statted out as some kind of Nightwalker. I think it was on DiceFreaks, long ago.

Nah; he's pretty clearly an Infernal.

watsyurname529
2009-03-05, 08:08 PM
The problem with the Unique (Something Worse) is the "something worse" part. I, and probably everyone else who voted for it, immediately thought unique that would be the most awesome because it was something worse than all of the others, especially because unique could mean anything.

Change the "Something Worse" tag, and you'd have a lot of changed votes.

Alteran
2009-03-05, 08:09 PM
Sorry, Juhn, but the temptation of:



a) a Beholder Lich
b) a Mind Flayer Lich
c) a Dracolich


is too great to resist. I honestly can't remember if we are allowed to switch votes (I believe Zeta barred it a while ago), but if it's possible then I'll do so. I was torn between Lich and Nightwalker, but I had forgotten entirely about non-humanoid liches.

So to clarify, if it's allowed:

-1 Nightwalker
+1 Lich

Juhn
2009-03-05, 08:12 PM
And this is why the Unique categories need to be defined immediately. On the one hand, you don't want to discount all those votes - people are definitely gonna cry foul - but on the other hand, you've already said that Something Worse doesn't really fit the theme of this incarnation of VUAV.

Hmm.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 08:13 PM
The problem with the Unique (Something Worse) is the "something worse" part.

Change the "Something Worse" tag, and you'd have a lot of changed votes.

I got that. I got that last time I pulled this gimmick, except that last time I did so fully expecting to win.

The question was, if it were not there, what would you have voted for? This goes for all of you.

And Alteran: Yes, votes can be changed.


And this is why the Unique categories need to be defined immediately.

I'd contest that. Normally they're pretty obvious - heck, most of these ones are pretty obvious. Corporeal Malevolence is pretty much synonymous with "Living Darkness," leaving only Phantasm and Facade as curiosities. And I defined Facade last time.


but on the other hand, you've already said that Something Worse doesn't really fit the theme of this incarnation of VUAV.

No, what I said was that voting Unique kind of dulls the "classic" I was hoping for. But you folks rarely hand me a non-unique, so I'm not highly surprised.

Reverent-One
2009-03-05, 08:16 PM
The problem with the Unique (Something Worse) is the "something worse" part. I, and probably everyone else who voted for it, immediately thought unique that would be the most awesome because it was something worse than all of the others, especially because unique could mean anything.

Change the "Something Worse" tag, and you'd have a lot of changed votes.

What he said. That's why Unique(something worse) was an auto-win.

EDIT: Note to self, read full thread before posting. >_>

watsyurname529
2009-03-05, 08:16 PM
And this is why the Unique categories need to be defined immediately. On the one hand, you don't want to discount all those votes - people are definitely gonna cry foul - but on the other hand, you've already said that Something Worse doesn't really fit the theme of this incarnation of VUAV.

Hmm.

Exactly. The way afro described it later in the thread is that "Something Worse" is more of in fact an other catagory that is less of a horrific darkness being than the rest.

Which is why:
-1 Unique (Something Worse)
+1 Unique (Corporeal Malevolence) (See further down)

Because "Something Worse" isn't guarenteed most (or nearly) awesome choice. From what afro has described earlier, "Something Worse" is actually just "Something Different".

If you want pure "classic" then you should have taken out the Uniques. I'm still voting Unique no matter what because I can always use the already printed stuff myself. I don't have afro's thoughts in some book I can read.

LordZarth
2009-03-05, 08:17 PM
Hmm. If something worse just has to do with form, then maybe it doesn't sound too good.

-1 Unique (Something Worse)
+1 Lich (although a unique would be better)

Afro, if U(SW) wins, please do something awesome. Just because it's something worse doesn't mean it can't also fit into the other categories.

Thane of Fife
2009-03-05, 08:24 PM
Sigh. In the hope of getting something more interesting out of this (and by more interesting, I primarily mean "not unique"), I would like to change my vote from

-1 Mummy
to
+1 Lich

Much though it pains me to do so.
Not that I think you could make anything not interesting....

watsyurname529
2009-03-05, 08:24 PM
Actually, I have (in my opinion) a great idea. Can I add the: Unique (Lich) as an option because Lich is just a template. The unique can be the base form, as long as lich can be applied, and we have the best of both worlds--a Unique Awesome Lich!

If so:

Which is why:
-1 Unique (Something Worse)
+1 Unique (Corporeal Malevolence)


So I've nullified my previous votes and I'm going to formally vote for:
-1 Unique (Something Worse)
+1 Unique (Lich)

If not:

Still
-1 Unique (Something Worse)
+1 Unique (Corporeal Malevolence)

MammonAzrael
2009-03-05, 08:25 PM
-1 Unique (Something Worse)
+1 Lich (as it's the only thing with a possible chance of overtaking USW)

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 08:36 PM
Hmm. If something worse just has to do with form, then maybe it doesn't sound too good.

I'm not saying it does, but that is its primary defining value. As it was last time. I'm going to do something bleak and horrific no matter what takes the prize (it's my job, after all) so it's not like any one option has the monopoly on that idea, which I think is what everyone's mistakenly believed.


Just because it's something worse doesn't mean it can't also fit into the other categories.

How many times do I have to KILL you, boy?

It was you that tried this last time.

Unless it can be both a zombie and a skeleton (which it can't), it also cannot cross lines through Unique categories.

That's why they're there. You have to choose one.


Can I add the: Unique (Lich) as an option because Lich is just a template.

No. Voting Lich means I get to put that template on whatever I want.


and by more interesting, I primarily mean "not unique"

Really? You think Uniques are less interesting? Odd. Lord_Gareth will be coming by to slay you, I assume.

Juhn
2009-03-05, 08:40 PM
Yes, but you see, we get uniques every. damn. time. Out of nine finished contests, we've only had two non-uniques! Two!

If this is supposed to be "classic" evil, then using something unique is, by definition, not going to be making one of the classics.

pyrefiend
2009-03-05, 08:46 PM
OK, hopping on the Lich bandwagon now.
-1 Nightwalker
+1 Lich

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 08:48 PM
Yes, but you see, we get uniques every. damn. time.

I see few complaints about this fact.


Out of nine finished contests, we've only had two non-uniques! Two!

One of them highly reviled. I'm a big fan of both, though. Interesting that they were back to back...


If this is supposed to be "classic" evil, then using something unique is, by definition, not going to be making one of the classics.

Funnily enough, I have a bypass available to make even Something Worse classic.

Remember, I have the POWER!

Shadow_Elf
2009-03-05, 08:49 PM
Remember, I have the POWER!

Must I remind you all of his Smite Forumgoer? Don't mess with the 'akuma!

That being said, vote Lich!

watsyurname529
2009-03-05, 08:50 PM
No. Voting Lich means I get to put that template on whatever I want.


That's pretty much what I meant. I just wanted to add the Unique label to possibly get something more interesting than the printed stuff and use the popularity of the Unique Label to combat USW.

So then final vote: Lich to beat USW.

dracoslaad
2009-03-05, 08:55 PM
I think that I will vote Lich as well.

Lappy9000
2009-03-05, 08:58 PM
OK, hopping on the Lich bandwagon now.
-1 Nightwalker
+1 LichPfft, I voted for Lich before it was cool. roflcopter

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 09:01 PM
That's pretty much what I meant. I just wanted to add the Unique label to possibly get something more interesting than the printed stuff and use the popularity of the Unique Label to combat USW.

Hell no. I've been fighting to try to balance things out with respect to the natural allure USW possesses among both the regular options and its own brethren. That said, I wouldn't mind doing one, and I'm not playing politics here. I remain completely neutral in this poll, except to note where people are misinterpreting, voting in odd fashions or deliberately out to try to screw me.

Juhn
2009-03-05, 09:01 PM
Bad Shadow! You broke the blatancy rule!

And no, you don't get many complaints afro, but the near-impossibility of getting a non-unique through is maddening for me. I've been trying to get this monster through for like three vote-ups now. Undead finally wins, and... the uniques steamrolled it. I even put up my vote right at the beginning, in the hopes of getting a bandwagon started.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 09:09 PM
I warned you about the hoops.

Even if USW weren't present, you'd have the hurdles of the other Uniques to contend with, as well as being the type with the most templates, which are like unto mini-Uniques themselves.

Shadow_Elf
2009-03-05, 09:13 PM
Were everyone who did not vote for a winning side to vote for Lich, the tables would be turned...

Afro, I think you need to let this battle between a Lich and Something Worse for at least another day. Its VUAV X, you got time to make it perfect(ly voted upon).

Juhn
2009-03-05, 09:14 PM
I'd have settled for Unique (Corporeal Malevolence), but that doesn't seem to be going anywhere either.

evil-frosty
2009-03-05, 09:19 PM
Well seeing some of the arguements against usw and that the something worse is just how it looks i have to change my vote so:
Unique(Something Else) -1
Lich +1

Thane of Fife
2009-03-05, 09:20 PM
Really? You think Uniques are less interesting? Odd. Lord_Gareth will be coming by to slay you, I assume.

Yeah, I really couldn't disagree with him more on that subject. Also, just for fun, Dandag wasn't unique, either, so it's actually 3/9.

But anyway, I think that Uniques tend to concentrate their interestingness in their being unique, rather than in their villainy, which, is, in my opinion, somewhat dull; I'd rather see a deep, fascinating villain than an interesting monster (not to say that something can't be both, but simply that it usually isn't). There's simply more room for interesting stuff in a non-unique, I feel, if only because what the monster is is already explained.

It's hard to explain, I guess.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 09:22 PM
Shadow, you're brushing close to the line, now.


Afro, I think you need to let this battle between a Lich and Something Worse for at least another day. Its VUAV X, you got time to make it perfect(ly voted upon).

I very well may have to, at that. Draw some clear lines as to what is what, since everyone seems to be up in the air about what they're looking for.

Belobog
2009-03-05, 09:22 PM
Well, if that's what it means...

-1 Unique: Something Worse
+1 Lich (favorably Alhoon)

thegurullamen
2009-03-05, 09:23 PM
Pfft, I voted for Lich before it was cool. roflcopter

I was the first one that voted lich! A god hipster am I.

Juhn
2009-03-05, 09:27 PM
Oh right, the Thief King's Palace wasn't unique either. I'd just never heard of Living Spells before.

The Bookworm
2009-03-05, 09:28 PM
I'll jump onto the bandwagon. Lich was always my second choice, so now that it has a chance I'll switch!

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 09:31 PM
Yeah, I really couldn't disagree with him more on that subject. Also, just for fun, Dandag wasn't unique, either, so it's actually 3/9.

Too true. Very well; I liked all three.


But anyway, I think that Uniques tend to concentrate their interestingness in their being unique, rather than in their villainy, which, is, in my opinion, somewhat dull;

:smalleek: I'm sorry? Are you saying that 2/3 of my villains have been... dull?


I'd rather see a deep, fascinating villain than an interesting monster (not to say that something can't be both, but simply that it usually isn't).

Usually. That requires a majority.

The Maiden's Weeping: Deep and fascinating, or no?
The Caillteanas: Not intriguing?
The Augmoha: Admittedly suffered due to its type and motivation, but was still an admirable plotter with an infernal agenda.
The Silver Hellstar: Opinion?
The Omenwrath: Face it, once I was given Animal with Malevolence, true depth flew out the window. I crafted a cautious bully uncertain of his place in the world.
Tsartajius: That alignment, plus that motivation, and I still pulled off a desperate, self-justifying soulsucker without a shred of malignancy.

And lest you mention the Thief King's Palace: be realistic, with a template like Living Spell and the cheat I pulled to make him, he was practically a Unique anyway.

Juhn
2009-03-05, 09:36 PM
I was originally counting Dandag and Meridius as the two non-uniques. Who did you miss as non-unique when you responded to me, afro?

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 09:41 PM
Dandag, oddly enough.

Well, it would appear that in attempting to suppress my own tampering with this contest, I tampered with this contest.

What to do, what to do...

Juhn
2009-03-05, 09:52 PM
Well, I suppose I'm pretty much done trying with the voting aspect now. Everyone who voted Nightwalker's jumping ship to go to Lich. But, as the guy who's been pushing for Nightwalker, I suppose it's only appropriate for the captain to go down with his ship. My vote stays.

So, back to discussion then. You forgot Dandag? He was my favourite of the non-uniques.

LordZarth
2009-03-05, 09:53 PM
...:smalleek: What a comeback...

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 09:54 PM
*shrug* I was thinking backwards in linear fashion, and since he said two I recalled the first two I bumped into.

I'm thinking I should sustain this round an additional day and sort out this USW mess. Any opinions, gallery?

LordZarth
2009-03-05, 09:59 PM
*shrug* I was thinking backwards in linear fashion, and since he said two I recalled the first two I bumped into.

I'm thinking I should sustain this round an additional day and sort out this USW mess. Any opinions, gallery?

Nah. Close as normal, villain takes precedence, it will be good anyways, this is a run-on sentence.

To be serious: 95% of the USW voters wanted it not for form but for 'evilness darkness awesomeness akuma factor'. That will, as you explained, come automatically. ...67% of statistics are made up on the spot...


Nothing to see here. Move along.

Belobog
2009-03-05, 10:10 PM
I would, if just for the sake of caution. It's not like the POWER will dissipate if we wait a day to see if this is what people want.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 10:16 PM
I'm going to keep watching and considering for the next hour or so. Further comments will be welcomed.

This... will definitely take some thought.

arguskos
2009-03-05, 10:22 PM
Honestly, now that USW is losing votes, I'm switching to Lich, since it might win, and that'd be epic. :smallcool:

Clarification:
-1 USW
+1 Lich

Juhn
2009-03-05, 10:23 PM
Well, I prefer Lich over flesh kites and whathaveyou, so I'm happy with this turn of events. I just hope this won't end with a "We've already done Undead now let's never ever do it again".

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 10:32 PM
Well of course it won't. This isn't Animal.

But I'm seriously trying to assess how to deal with the votes and vote biasing in this case.

Opinons welcome.

LordZarth
2009-03-05, 10:34 PM
Well of course it won't. This isn't Animal.

But I'm seriously trying to assess how to deal with the votes and vote biasing in this case.

Opinons welcome.

Although obviously your posts before changed the outcome and the bias, as you said before it was really just clarification. I'm certain that this outcome is actually what the voters of USW actually wanted. It's evident.

Only one who gets owned is Nightwalker. And nobody likes them, anyway. Just kidding, Juhn. I looked them up. They're cool. Got their number.

...and they have no friends, and their mom doesn't like them...

thegurullamen
2009-03-05, 10:36 PM
Well of course it won't. This isn't Animal.

People have a habit of voting down types that have already been done. I fully expected to run the gamut before we saw a repeat.


But I'm seriously trying to assess how to deal with the votes and vote biasing in this case.

Opinons welcome.

I say keep the schedule as is. The complicated choice isn't winning anymore, so it's a moot point.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 10:37 PM
Although obviously your posts before changed the outcome and the bias, as you said before it was really just clarification. I'm certain that this outcome is actually what the voters of USW actually wanted. It's evident.

Except it very obviously wasn't clarification. Nobody got it at all. USW in and of itself was a bias, but I didn't think it would be as magnetic as last time. My attempts to clarify made it seem like much less than what it is, making people flee to something else.

Thane of Fife
2009-03-05, 10:38 PM
:smalleek: I'm sorry? Are you saying that 2/3 of my villains have been... dull?

That's not what I meant. I think that other choices could have been more interesting, but such is the nature of a Vote Up a....


The Maiden's Weeping: Deep and fascinating, or no?

It was ok, but it struck me as something which would have been better as a monster than a unique villain.


The Caillteanas: Not intriguing?

The Caillteanas was fine - Fey are a type which I think is fine for Uniques, possibly because they're creatures of simple motives.



The Augmoha: Admittedly suffered due to its type and motivation, but was still an admirable plotter with an infernal agenda.

I only just looked at this one for the first time, but it looks good. It's a nice example of what I think a Unique should look like, but you'll notice that almost its entire schtick revolves around its race (it's all about eating dragons and getting more powerful).



The Silver Hellstar: Opinion?

Constructs would be another of the types which works for Unique. I haven't actually read that much of this one, though I hear only good stuff about it.


The Omenwrath: Face it, once I was given Animal with Malevolence, true depth flew out the window. I crafted a cautious bully uncertain of his place in the world.

While I actually liked the Omenwraith, it wasn't really a unique so much as a new type of monster.



Tsartajius: That alignment, plus that motivation, and I still pulled off a desperate, self-justifying soulsucker without a shred of malignancy.

I would say that this one, more than any of them, suffered from being unique. Unique and humanoid/monstrous humanoid/giant just don't mix. Those types are virtually all about being members of some society. And you will, again, notice that he wasn't so much a unique as a member of a new race. Incidentally, I almost voted Bodak this time to give you the chance to make up some sort of horrible beast lurking behind Tsartajius.


And lest you mention the Thief King's Palace: be realistic, with a template like Living Spell and the cheat I pulled to make him, he was practically a Unique anyway.

Yeah, and he's my least favorite of the non-uniques, perhaps as a result of it.

Again, I'm not saying that a good unique can't be done, or that the ones you've done aren't good - they are (most of them). In particular, there are some types that go well with it - Constructs, Outsiders, Fey. I don't think that Undead would be one of them.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 10:51 PM
It was ok, but it struck me as something which would have been better as a monster than a unique villain.

I don't see why that is the case. It has a potent motivation, a unique mindset regarding said motivation and a rather intelligent and foresighted way to achieve its goals. What, in your opinion, keeps it from being a good villain?


I only just looked at this one for the first time, but it looks good. It's a nice example of what I think a Unique should look like, but you'll notice that almost its entire schtick revolves around its race (it's all about eating dragons and getting more powerful).

Untrue. It made that determination based on its specific experiences; its species came from a world without dragons; it acquired the desire for dragons' eggs independent of its species. In fact, I'd probably place the blame on the researcher's species for having a sorcerous bloodline.


While I actually liked the Omenwraith, it wasn't really a unique so much as a new type of monster.

Clearly, you've missed the point of Uniques.

Unique means I craft a new creature. It can be a new race, a new species, but onto this creature I must also create a villain. Moreover, I only do that as required by concept.

In the case of the Omenwrath, I was stuck with an Animal villain, meaning I had to find some way of giving it a more audacious presence. I introduced the khorbanes in order to tack a druidic curse onto them that wouldn't trod on a DM's plans for extant species. I then killed off the rest of them. You can't tell me the result would have been better had Pony won the day.


I would say that this one, more than any of them, suffered from being unique. Unique and humanoid/monstrous humanoid/giant just don't mix. Those types are virtually all about being members of some society. And you will, again, notice that he wasn't so much a unique as a member of a new race.

In the case of Tsartajius, I had nothing to go on. I was this close to declaring the contest a surrender without posting a villain at all. At last, I decided that, in the best vein of old world mythology, his horrific nature would be a result of some terrible taint in the womb. He still would have been an only child, so to speak, were it not for that stupid, stupid, stupid alignment/motivation combo, which led me to find a villainous goal that would be prompted by depression, without being evil, good or cliché. Enter the need to recreate the circumstances of his birth, and thus that there would be a recreatable pattern: a race.

Sereg
2009-03-05, 11:02 PM
To answer your earlier question Afro, I would have voted for vampire if unique (something worse) wasn't there. However that's not going to win anyway so it doesn't make much difference. Of course I don't doubt your POWER, so I know that it will be awesome whatever wins.

osyluth
2009-03-05, 11:22 PM
Mummies can be pretty DARK.

Thane of Fife
2009-03-05, 11:46 PM
I don't see why that is the case. It has a potent motivation, a unique mindset regarding said motivation and a rather intelligent and foresighted way to achieve its goals. What, in your opinion, keeps it from being a good villain?

Perhaps a good example would be the Greater Feyr - I don't know if you still have those in 3.x, but I'm a 2e man, so... Greater Feyr. It's a monster that feeds off of negative emotions and uses its time to inspire more of them - it's practically a monster custom-made to serve as a villain. The Maiden's Weeping struck me in somewhat the same fashion.


Clearly, you've missed the point of Uniques.

Unique means I craft a new creature. It can be a new race, a new species, but onto this creature I must also create a villain. Moreover, I only do that as required by concept.

Perhaps that's the disconnect - when I hear Unique, I expect "only one of its kind". The Tarrasque is Unique. Orcus is Unique. Tsartajius is a Deadened. He is not Unique.

What it really comes down to, perhaps, is the common idea around here that Heroes are Special. I'm not a huge fan of that; to me, it's Villains who are Special. Anyone has the ability to step up to save the world - it takes someone fascinating up to step up and say "Let's do some Evil!" In my opinion, by being Unique, a creature is inherently less special/villainous - he shifts from an extraordinary individual to just some weird creature - a magnificently evil creature, sure, but still.... YMMV.


In the case of the Omenwrath, I was stuck with an Animal villain, meaning I had to find some way of giving it a more audacious presence. I introduced the khorbanes in order to tack a druidic curse onto them that wouldn't trod on a DM's plans for extant species. I then killed off the rest of them. You can't tell me the result would have been better had Pony won the day.

Certainly not - as I said, I liked the Omenwraith.

LordZarth
2009-03-05, 11:54 PM
What it really comes down to, perhaps, is the common idea around here that Heroes are Special. I'm not a huge fan of that; to me, it's Villains who are Special. Anyone has the ability to step up to save the world - it takes someone fascinating up to step up and say "Let's do some Evil!" In my opinion, by being Unique, a creature is inherently less special/villainous - he shifts from an extraordinary individual to just some weird creature - a magnificently evil creature, sure, but still.... YMMV.

Hmm. I find it the other way. Anyone can step up and go do some evil (although obviously CR 10 people are better evildoers), but it takes a special person to combat that.

afroakuma
2009-03-05, 11:54 PM
Perhaps a good example would be the Greater Feyr - I don't know if you still have those in 3.x, but I'm a 2e man, so... Greater Feyr.

I am familiar, yes.


It's a monster that feeds off of negative emotions and uses its time to inspire more of them - it's practically a monster custom-made to serve as a villain. The Maiden's Weeping struck me in somewhat the same fashion.

Certainly, which is almost explicitly true. I don't see how that detracts from it being a compelling villain, however.


Perhaps that's the disconnect - when I hear Unique, I expect "only one of its kind". The Tarrasque is Unique. Orcus is Unique. Tsartajius is a Deadened. He is not Unique.

Technically he is. The Deadened are a rare phenomenon that stabilize themselves using their twins. Tsartajius is unique in that, having lost his twin, he became more and more horrific (both physically, and with supernatural powers not expressed by others of his kind). He is an evolution of something that should never have had the chance to evolve, and therefore, as well as being unique in mindset, he is unique as a being. There has never been, and likely never will be, another such as Tsartajius.


In my opinion, by being Unique, a creature is inherently less special/villainous - he shifts from an extraordinary individual to just some weird creature - a magnificently evil creature, sure, but still.... YMMV.


I don't follow - you seem to be arguing that the Uniques are poor villains because too much effort is spent making them unique, but you also argue that them being members of a race instead of truly singular creatures is what detracts from them?

afroakuma
2009-03-06, 12:04 AM
Now, the... fractious... voting on Race has drawn to a close.

Despite the craziness that just ensued, it appears that there was a pretty conclusive second choice for most participants, and rather than wade back into the battlefield, I've decided to follow form and declare Lich the winner.

Note that, as a template, I may apply it to any qualifying being I so choose, regardless of whether or not that being currently exists. Essentially, you've handed me Previously Unique (Currently Lich) if I so choose.

Proceeding with the rounds, we now need this cruel casting corpse's Class.

Thane of Fife
2009-03-06, 12:16 AM
Certainly, which is almost explicitly true. I don't see how that detracts from it being a compelling villain, however.

It's that it seems like a monster that can be developed into a villain, rather than a villain itself, IMO. It's plans are more developed than the Feyr's, but not that much so. I feel like I would need to put far more work into using the Maiden's Weeping than using, say, Prince Meridius.


I don't follow - you seem to be arguing that the Uniques are poor villains because too much effort is spent making them unique, but you also argue that them being members of a race instead of truly singular creatures is what detracts from them?

That was a poor way of saying it, in a way that is perhaps opposite of what I meant (I was having a hard time vocalizing my thoughts), but I think my real point is that villains are made, not born, and that being Unique largely contradicts that. Unique largely implies being born, if not inherently villainous, then at least with tendencies towards how one will end up.

For some creatures - demons, fey, constructs - it doesn't matter as much because they really are born, not made. Again, all my opinion.


Hmm. I find it the other way. Anyone can step up and go do some evil (although obviously CR 10 people are better evildoers), but it takes a special person to combat that.

Poor way of stating my thoughts.

And with that, I am going to hit the sack.Take that, sack!

arguskos
2009-03-06, 12:21 AM
I need the classic. Liches can only truly be one class, and that is.... Wizard!! See: Larloch, Szass Tam, and numerous other luminaries of the Liching profession.

Belobog
2009-03-06, 12:23 AM
Casting? Oh, no, no, no. Not Casting. Manifesting.

My lot is cast for Psion.

Limos
2009-03-06, 12:29 AM
Wizard!

Let's get an epic level undead Batman wizard up in here.

Alteran
2009-03-06, 12:30 AM
We want DARK, do we not?

Let's go with Warlock!

I am looking forward to a fantastic, hopefully non-human(oid) lich.

Come oooon, squid thingy. I hope I don't make that less likely by mentioning it. I guess that fear is why I'm putting this in white! Feel free to ignore, everybody.

afroakuma
2009-03-06, 12:32 AM
It's that it seems like a monster that can be developed into a villain, rather than a villain itself, IMO. It's plans are more developed than the Feyr's, but not that much so.

It has set objectives, an MO, and the ability to hold intelligent discourse about its goals, its current activities, why you cannot stop it and why you should back off before it kills you. It's a plant-based version of this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_the_Illustrious_Client), made more menacing by its tactics, its civility, its minions and the fact that even when you think it's dead, you may have hit the wrong target. The latter two are certainly components of the monster, but I would argue the former to be elements of the villain's style.


I feel like I would need to put far more work into using the Maiden's Weeping than using, say, Prince Meridius.

Meridius was explicitly designed to be a recurring Magnificent Bastard to mitigate the measly four levels of sorcerer. He's also easier to use because I laid out the tracks for a full aventure, instead of merely the atmosphere and plot hooks.

UnChosenOne
2009-03-06, 12:33 AM
I vote for Lich Paladin.

Daracaex
2009-03-06, 12:34 AM
Something makes me really want to see an evil dark lich monk…

On second thought, change that to Paladin. I want to know how that can turn out.

afroakuma
2009-03-06, 12:37 AM
I am looking forward to a fantastic, hopefully non-human(oid) lich.

Come oooon, squid thingy. I hope I don't make that less likely by mentioning it. I guess that fear is why I'm putting this in white! Feel free to ignore, everybody.

What do we have here? It looks like... "hope". :belkar:


I vote for Lich Paladin.

I knew someone would.

thegurullamen
2009-03-06, 12:45 AM
A caster, yes, but what kind? A wiz, a war, an arcane trickster? A bard would count.

Gotta go with the classic. Wizard for phenomenal cosmic powers sans itty bitty living space.

Alteran
2009-03-06, 12:46 AM
What do we have here? It looks like... "hope". :belkar:


Crap, I forgot. You eat hope. :smallfrown:

Sereg
2009-03-06, 02:59 AM
I'm also going with warlock

Magnor Criol
2009-03-06, 03:12 AM
Huh, this is interesting. After thinking on it for a while, I come back to change my vote from Something Worse to Lich...only to find, to my great surprise, that Lich managed to pull a dramatic turnaround. And to further my surprise, reading the pages I missed, I discover that the very reasons I came up with to switch my vote on my own were the same ones y'all threw out (particularly the concept of "classic" darkness, and especially the idea of a non-humanoid lich). Weirdness. =p At least I'm in good company.

I'm going to have to give the class vote a bit more thought before I do so. I'm leaning towards some sort of caster, though.

Atelm
2009-03-06, 03:14 AM
Swordsage gets my vote.

SlyGuyMcFly
2009-03-06, 03:27 AM
Hum. I´m kinda stumped on this one. So many possibilities, just one vote...