Sneak Attack and spells

[Zergrusheddie]

Can the Arcane Trickster perform a Sneak Attack using a spell? And if not, what makes this PrC so enticing?

[Eldariel]

Any character can perform a Sneak Attack using a spell as long as that spell is weapon-like, such as a Ray or an Orb; basically anything with an attack roll (do note that Sneak Attack doesn't add to special types of damage; a spell like Enervation would simply deal SA as Negative Energy damage rather than additional lost levels for example). All this is explained in great detail in Complete Arcane.

[Sebastian]

IIRC Any spell with an attack roll can be used to sneak attack if you have this class feature.

edit: ninja'd

[Innis Cabal]

Yes, if they are weapon like spells, anyone can preform sneak attacks with them if they have the ability

[Yuki Akuma]

Can the Arcane Trickster perform a Sneak Attack using a spell? And if not, what makes this PrC so enticing?

Arcane Trickster is enticing?

[Stormageddon]

Yes you can SA with any spell that requires an attack roll. No magic missile. :smallfrown:

I played one. i loved it. High Ref and will saves. The really useful ability to disarm traps from 30ft away. Evasion. Good skill points. No lost spell caster levels. Not super powerful, but it's a very fun class to play.

[Myrmex]

How'd you do arcane trickster without lost caster levels?

[Curmudgeon]

Yes you can SA with any spell that requires an attack roll. Not quite. You can sneak attack with any spell that
requires an attack roll; and
does damage.
Sneak attack damage is normally of the same type as that of the weaponlike spell, but spells that do ability damage will deal their sneak attack damage as negative energy instead.

If you don't have Complete Arcane, a preview of the rules incorporated into that book is available in this online article: Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a).

[Keld Denar]

How'd you do arcane trickster without lost caster levels?

You can't. You can minimize the damage though.

Rogue1/Wiz4/USS2/AT10 gets you there, although USS is way better than AT anyway, so I'd probably build Rogue1/Wiz4/USS10/AT5

Sub Rogue for Spellthief at your leasure and exchange Practiced Spellcaster for Master Spellthief.

19/20 spellcaster levels with a CL of 20 for non-divinations and 23 for divinations is pretty decent...

[elonin]

What's the point of arcane trickster? I've looked at it and decided I'd do better with advancing rogue and wizard independantly.

[Keld Denar]

How? Just taking some basic non-optimial numbers....

Wizard5/Rogue5/AT10

Casts as a 15th level wizard and has 8d6 SA like a 17th level rogue

Wizard10/Rogue10

Casts as a 10th level wizard and has 5d6 SA like a 10th level rogue

WAY worse....

[Douglas]

What's the point of arcane trickster? I've looked at it and decided I'd do better with advancing rogue and wizard independantly.
Er, what? How did you manage to come to that bizarre conclusion? How, exactly, is a Rogue 10/Wizard 10 better than a Rogue 5/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 10?

[Curmudgeon]

What's the point of arcane trickster? I've looked at it and decided I'd do better with advancing rogue and wizard independantly. You won't do better in terms of sneak attack damage, and that's the main point of the Arcane Trickster. This is a class for those who want to sneak attack with spells. Add in the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature (Dungeonscape) and you can sneak attack pretty much anything. Use Spell Flower to hold a touch spell while casting another spell, such as a swift action teleport spell like Knight's Move, touch the target you now flank, and then move away.

[Thurbane]

Rogue + UMD + Wand of Acid Splash = acid sneak attack damage out to 25 feet, no SR, no save, ranged touch attack to hit. Of course, you still need to catch them flat footed. :smallbiggrin:

[Talya]

You can't. You can minimize the damage though.

Yes you can. As a wizard, Take martial study (any shadow hand maneuver) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance.) Being in assassin's stance qualifies you for Arcane Trickster (+2d6 sneak attack.) You can't be knocked out of a stance, and it has no duration, so once in it, you can always be in it.

Getting all those cross class skills will be fun though.

[monty]

Yes you can. As a wizard, Take martial study (any shadow hand maneuver) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance.) Being in assassin's stance qualifies you for Arcane Trickster (+2d6 sneak attack.) You can't be knocked out of a stance, and it has no duration, so once in it, you can always be in it.

Getting all those cross class skills will be fun though.

Keep in mind, though, that this means you probably won't be getting into AT until 13th level, unless you can get a bonus general feat at 10 or 11.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Keep in mind, though, that this means you probably won't be getting into AT until 13th level, unless you can get a bonus general feat at 10 or 11.12th level. You can have the cross-class skills at 7 ranks at level 11. That's probably most of your skill ranks, but you can. Able Learner would at least mean you would have more skills available(the equivalent of an additional point/level), and there may be a feat to make Escape Artist or DD a class skill.

As for the martial maneuvers, either Chaos Shuffle, Fighter Feat variant Wizard, or talking your DM into letting feats be chosen before classes are.

[Person_Man]

I think the combo you're looking for is to invest in UMD and buy a Wand of Flame Blade. That way you get a full attack, all of them touch attacks, and all of them dealing Sneak Attack damage (assuming you otherwise qualify by flanking or whatever). You can even use TWF with this, though you'd take the normal penalties for doing so. If you want to do it with ranged attacks, invest in 5 levels of Master Thrower.

If you want to do it as a caster, then the standard progression is usually something like Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer X/Arcane Trickster Y. Unseen Seer only requires 1d6 Sneak Attack, and it provides some as part of its progression, thus qualifying you for Arcane Trickster.

[ericgrau]

UMD is a trap. Unless you have a way of cheesing it out it won't be reliable until high levels. Often you're better off taking a 1 level dip into wizard purely for the wand/scroll use and calling it a day. That's essentially the same as giving yourself a UMD modifier of 21 for wizard spells right off the bat. Even for scrolls of level 2+ you can make a caster level check to use them.

Rolled stats average out to about the elite array: 15,14,13,12,10,8. With dex as his main stat and con at 2nd or 3rd, that's only a +1 or +2 to cha. So your modifier is 4 or 5 + level. By the time you hit a UMD of 19 you'll have forgotten what your goals are in the first place. A circlet of persuasion can add a +3 for 4500gp, and feats can speed it up a little too. When you hit level 7 cross-class ranks in spellcraft can add +2. Decipher script can add another +2, but only to scrolls not wands. That all adds up to 9 or 10 + level, letting you pull it off at level 10 or 9. But at that late in the game you gotta wonder why you're not attacking 2 or 3 times with a bow instead of once with a ray. Each attack is less likely to hit, but you'll probably still average more than 1 hit per round. And if you use flat-footedness or greater invis as your sneak attack trigger, all of those attacks are sneak attacks.

Or you can attempt it at an earlier level. But one of the biggest advantages of this tactic - nigh auto hit since it's a ranged touch attack - doesn't hold any more now that you have a failure chance to worry about. But since you're shorter on coin at the lower level and this this tactic isn't so stellar any more, you're probably not gonna pony up the gold for a circlet of persuasion. I mean, you'll probably be better of spending it on making your character effective in other ways. So that puts you even further behind.

What you can do with UMD at very high levels without sacrificing much resources is carry around low level utility scrolls. Which is nice but nothing uber.

[Person_Man]

UMD is a trap.

The DC to activate a Wand is 20, and it never changes. As you demonstrate, you can reliably pull that off at at level 10ish or lower, which isn't that much of a deal for many games. Though I'd argue that a Cha based build could pull it off sooner, and a Warlock could pull it off at level 3 when they get the ability to Take 10 on UMD.

If you're shaky about UMD, you can take Arcane Schooling (Player's Guide to Faerun) which let's you count as having 1 level of 1 class for activating spell trigger items, or Magic Device Attunement (Complete Mage) which let's you auto activate a magic item you've successfully UMD'd once in the last 24 hours. Rangers and Paladins can also take Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor) to add Wizard spells to their spell list. There's no reason to dip into another class just to activate their magic items.

[Fax Celestis]

The DC to activate a Wand is 20, and it never changes. As you demonstrate, you can reliably pull that off at at level 10ish or lower, which isn't that much of a deal for many games. Though I'd argue that a Cha based build could pull it off sooner, and a Warlock could pull it off at level 3 when they get the ability to Take 10 on UMD.

Point in fact: I have an ECL 1 character right now with a UMD check of +9. If I had taken a different first level feat (such as, say, Skill Focus: UMD), I'd have a +12.

Which means I could activate a wand on a 7+. At ECL 1.

UMD is not a trap. It's one of the most powerful skills in the game, especially since it'll let you use stuff you shouldn't normally be able to (like, say, a book of exalted deeds as a NE character).