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Frosty
2009-03-03, 08:44 PM
Ok, so my ECL 14 party (a DMM Persist Cleric, a Generalist Wizard who is only level 13, a Pathdinder Bard, and a Knight wielding a Katana) is about to go through the home and tunnels of some fiendish kobolds in order to retrieve some objects they need on the next part of their quest.

The kobolds are led by a Red Dragon named Tuk'hur who is in cahoots with devils, and the Tuk'hur has entrusted the kobolds with guarding some objects that could permanently turn off some minor artifacts that he and the devils use in their on-going operations. I need some advice on how to make a bunch of kobolds very challenging to an ECL 14 group while at the same time have the fight different from any other generic "take on enemies with class levels" challenge. They are not very optimized, and they will need to be able to take on another fight after getting the objects they need. They need to be able to kill the Red Dragon and his devil allies afterwards on the same day inside the Red Dragon's lair (which is a supposedly dormant volcano).

They will have some NPC backup for the second fight: A healbot Shugenja, a blaster sorcereess/Elemental Savant (Cold), and a Warblade/Fighter/Bloodstorm Blade. I can easily adjust the number of devil allies to up or lower the difficulty after taking into account the NPCs.

overduegalaxy
2009-03-03, 08:47 PM
Tucker's Kobolds

Frosty
2009-03-03, 08:51 PM
No. not Tucker's. The bolds belong to Tuk'hur. I swear my players are lazy like that too pronouncing the name like Tucker instead of the right way.

elonin
2009-03-03, 08:55 PM
There was an adventure in Dungeon magazine (don't know what number but a long time ago) featuring a dungeon made by or for kobolds. This took advantage of kobold size and had them working together. For one thing the ceilings were only 3.5 feet tall which was plenty for kobolds but squeezing at best for human sized adventurers. Murder holes would be common and would include many blind alleys leading to dead ends with slimes having been cultivated by the kobolds. There's nothing saying that they didn't make defensive preperations like saturating some tunnels with oil and lighting them at oppertune moments.

Then if you want to be cruel one of the kobolds is a druid who somehow managed to attain the form of a sarrukh....

BizzaroStormy
2009-03-03, 08:58 PM
Then use the main thing kobold have going for them...numbers. It would be difficult for you but run an encounter with A LOT of buffed up kobolds. Pehaps have the party walk into a big cavern, then a boulder drops behind them, sealing off the exit and thats when they face down about 60 kobolds all holding quite a bit more than sticks and rocks.

Magnor Criol
2009-03-03, 08:58 PM
Tucker's Kobolds

Tucker's kobolds, run right, would end them. He said they need to beat the kobolds, then beat a red dragon and its devil allies afterward, without time for resting. Though that's not to say you couldn't get inspiration from the story, I guess.

Frosty
2009-03-03, 08:59 PM
That's cool, but since I don't have that magazine, I need some solid suggestions on a dungeon and a big fight. Small size and squeezing is definitely cool. Murder holes for blowdarts and crossbows also good. I need some suggestions for traps too. No pun-pun.

Smiley_
2009-03-03, 09:08 PM
Off the top of my head, I would suggest a decent sized pack of kobolds that are significantly weaker than the PCs. They might have some cleric, sorceror or rogue levels about them and others might be fiendish.

The scenario you described, dormant volcano, not wanting a standard "here are some monsters with class levels. Kill 'em." encounter, and useful objects at the end, is a perfect place for unconventional warfare. Here is what I suggest.

The kobolds might never actually directly fight the PCs, rather, they would rely on sneak attacks, falling rock traps, pit traps, nets, vials of alchemist's fire, and so on. Also, the kobolds could attack from above or other places hard to reach by the PCs.

Now, the challenge isn't fending off the kobolds. A well placed spell should drive them off easily. The task is in recognizing and navigating the traps so when they do reach the objects they were searching for and kill the kobolds in their last effort to keep the PCs away, they have enough hit points for their next fight. Naturally, if they do well, they should be in pretty decent shape and if they do poorly, the next battle will be quite a bit more difficult.

Lycan 01
2009-03-03, 09:13 PM
I like the idea of a blocked-off cavern full of well-armed Kobolds.

I also like Tucker's Kobolds. The variety of traps you can use is insane. Holes in the ceiling the Kobolds can stab spears down through, the old "pit full of spikes" thing, holes in the ceiling the Kobolds can pour boiling pitch or other yummy stuff down from, trip wires rigged to torches teetering over an oil-covered floor, an underground section of floor hollowed out and held up by sticks, which the kobolds pull out as the adventurers walk overhead, causing a few of them to drop down into a room full of bloodthirsty little critters...


Seriously, the possibilities are endless. :smalleek:

elonin
2009-03-03, 09:45 PM
Was just joking about Pun-pun. I don't even agree with the theories that are used to make him work.

Back to more serious pc killing. Announce to the players that they are now crampt and there is a 1/2 foot of liquid that they are walking though. Maybe one of them makes a knowledge alchemy check to determine that it's oil. If they go in there the kobolds will light it. Even if they are resistant/imune it's going to consume the oxygen (as the kobold who lit the oil closed a hidden door that is now a hidden door w/ no mechanism the party's way).

In another coridor the kobolds have smothered the walls with dark vision dust making hiding impossible (course this can be countered by magic).

Since the party will be expecting to be boxed in make a 15' wide coridor that has an illusion of a wall. Use Nystals magic aura to make the whole area radiate of magic. Station a bunch of kobolds with long spears and have them ready actions until the party has gotten themselves fully caught in this ambush. Don't forget to have some take combat reflexes to prevent spell casting. Have some toss caltrops hinding movement.

Don't let em rest. Send skirmishers if the party starts to make camp.

Have 1 or 2 necromancers to raise any kobolds that have fallen to soften the party. Of course the feat that causes your undead to blast with negetive energy is a must.

Kobolds are iconic trap builders. Pit traps with pressure pad flooring that trigger for anyone heavier than kobold weight are great if the party has a size small rogue (could be undetectable and great for letting rogue pass while nailing heavier adventurers).

Sorry the idea was to make the group think not to be a insta-deathtrap complex.

Jack_Simth
2009-03-03, 09:50 PM
Well, let's see...

First, we review:

1) The kobolds have the object the party must obtain.
2) It's the kobold's turf
3) The kobolds can reasonably expect some amount of support from Tuk'hur so long as it doesn't directly require Tuk'hur's presence in the caverns.

That is:
1) They must get the object.
2) To get it, they must go through the warren,
3) They can obtain a few magic items and traps that they could not produce themselves.

The entrance to the warren is a very long tunnel, made up of three basic layers.

The first layer, which permits the passage of medium-sized critters without penalty. It's heavily trapped, and lined with murder-holes; additionally, the murder holes are spaced such that you don't get line-of-effect for spells through them.
Surrounding that is a set of kobold-sized tunnels; small, cramped things that are spacious enough for kobolds, but a tight fit for anyone medium. These also are lined with murder holes.
Surrounding those is a set of tunnels that are a tight fit for kobolds.

The first and second layer don't actually go anywhere. They're just very, very long, maze-like, and twisty. To actually get into the warrens, you need to go through the third set.

In the first layer, the kobolds make heavy use of built-to-collapse areas (triggered from layer 2), razor wire just above kobold's heads (for those kobolds running away), concealed pit traps that don't trigger under a kobold's weight (and end 30 to 200 feet down in whatever ooze seems appropriate). Anyone inside here is also continuously peppered by Kobold-sized light crossbow bolts. This layer includes hidden passageways into layer 2.

In the second layer, the kobolds keep oil and fuses. Lots, and lots, and lots of oil and fuses... and they also maintain a lot of four-piece shields that can be used to close off individual sections. If they're followed, they retreat as far as they expect to need, set a fuse among a lot of oil, and close off all the entrances to that section... packing dirt behind the shields after they're in place. Anyone inside here is also continously peppered by Kobold-sized light crossbow bolts. This layer includes hidden passageways into layer 3.

The third layer leads to the actual warren, and is essentially untrapped... other than the ever-present kobolds with light crossbows.

The Kobold's strategy is always the same - arrange for a lead into prepared traps, harrying them so they can't rest. Even though they're only hitting on a nat-20, unless that DMM(Persist) cleric is using Mass Lesser Vigor, it'll wear them down a LOT.

How long you go with each set depends on how much resources you wish them to expend. And don't forget - when the party seems lost, and all hope is gone... quarrels are physical objects. It's entirely possible for the kobolds to Run Out of Spikey Things (http://specialschool.spiderforest.com/?comic_id=194) if the situation calls for it.

Frosty
2009-03-03, 10:30 PM
Well, let's see...

First, we review:

1) The kobolds have the object the party must obtain.
2) It's the kobold's turf
3) The kobolds can reasonably expect some amount of support from Tuk'hur so long as it doesn't directly require Tuk'hur's presence in the caverns.

That is:
1) They must get the object.
2) To get it, they must go through the warren,
3) They can obtain a few magic items and traps that they could not produce themselves.

The entrance to the warren is a very long tunnel, made up of three basic layers.

The first layer, which permits the passage of medium-sized critters without penalty. It's heavily trapped, and lined with murder-holes; additionally, the murder holes are spaced such that you don't get line-of-effect for spells through them.
Surrounding that is a set of kobold-sized tunnels; small, cramped things that are spacious enough for kobolds, but a tight fit for anyone medium. These also are lined with murder holes.
Surrounding those is a set of tunnels that are a tight fit for kobolds.

The first and second layer don't actually go anywhere. They're just very, very long, maze-like, and twisty. To actually get into the warrens, you need to go through the third set.

In the first layer, the kobolds make heavy use of built-to-collapse areas (triggered from layer 2), razor wire just above kobold's heads (for those kobolds running away), concealed pit traps that don't trigger under a kobold's weight (and end 30 to 200 feet down in whatever ooze seems appropriate). Anyone inside here is also continuously peppered by Kobold-sized light crossbow bolts. This layer includes hidden passageways into layer 2.

In the second layer, the kobolds keep oil and fuses. Lots, and lots, and lots of oil and fuses... and they also maintain a lot of four-piece shields that can be used to close off individual sections. If they're followed, they retreat as far as they expect to need, set a fuse among a lot of oil, and close off all the entrances to that section... packing dirt behind the shields after they're in place. Anyone inside here is also continously peppered by Kobold-sized light crossbow bolts. This layer includes hidden passageways into layer 3.

The third layer leads to the actual warren, and is essentially untrapped... other than the ever-present kobolds with light crossbows.

The Kobold's strategy is always the same - arrange for a lead into prepared traps, harrying them so they can't rest. Even though they're only hitting on a nat-20, unless that DMM(Persist) cleric is using Mass Lesser Vigor, it'll wear them down a LOT.

How long you go with each set depends on how much resources you wish them to expend. And don't forget - when the party seems lost, and all hope is gone... quarrels are physical objects. It's entirely possible for the kobolds to Run Out of Spikey Things (http://specialschool.spiderforest.com/?comic_id=194) if the situation calls for it.


The cleric IS DMM Mass Vigor for 3 Fast Healing each round, and the bard can use a special bard song Ironskin Chant which grants DR 5 for up to 5 rounds (I changed the duration to 5 rounds if the Bard uses a standard instead of a swift action to activate, and it affects all allies within 30 ft).

The kobold lair itself is NOT in the dormant volcano. but the trap ideas are very cool. Do you think this will wear down the party too much? I also only have about 5 hours to run the session. It might take a VERY long time depending on what happens.

Jack_Simth
2009-03-03, 10:41 PM
The cleric IS DMM Mass Vigor for 3 Fast Healing each round, and the bard can use a special bard song Ironskin Chant which grants DR 5 for up to 5 rounds (I changed the duration to 5 rounds if the Bard uses a standard instead of a swift action to activate, and it affects all allies within 30 ft).

The kobold lair itself is NOT in the dormant volcano. but the trap ideas are very cool. Do you think this will wear down the party too much? I also only have about 5 hours to run the session. It might take a VERY long time depending on what happens.
With a party that uses DMM Persist on Mass Vigor? Not until it goes over the 24-hour game time mark, no. The problem with Tucker's Kobolds is that they're primarily a wearing down of the party. Prevent rest, slowly chip away at HP. With Mass Vigor Persisted on the party? That strategy doesn't work ... at least, not until you reach the point where Persistent Spells start to wear off. In order to fit a significant wear on them with low-level Kobolds, you'll need to get more direct - lots of kobolds in wide-open spaces where you can have a few hundred of them targetting each character, you're going to need to eat up those spell durations first.

chiasaur11
2009-03-03, 10:47 PM
That's cool, but since I don't have that magazine, I need some solid suggestions on a dungeon and a big fight. Small size and squeezing is definitely cool. Murder holes for blowdarts and crossbows also good. I need some suggestions for traps too. No pun-pun.

Well, duh. Pun-Pun is neutral good. He'd never aid such shennanigans.

Graymayre
2009-03-03, 10:50 PM
I agree, you should incorporate some of Tucker's Kobolds at those overconfident SOBs. :smalltongue:

Kobolds are not meant to throw themselves in waves at the PCs. They use traps, and they use them a lot. Just set up some death pits and keep reminding those guys about how they lost to a bunch of CR 1/4 creatures. :smallsmile:

lsfreak
2009-03-03, 11:03 PM
Would Dispel Magic traps, set up by aforementioned dragon/devils, be too mean? :p

Harperfan7
2009-03-03, 11:15 PM
Fiendish poisonous vermin dropped from above or released in swarms.
Every little bolt or dart is covered in poison, even if it's weak poison.
Honeycomb the 3 foot passages and never have them go straight for more than a square or two. Make it a maze with elevation added in.

Their favored class is sorcerer, so lots and lots of spells being thrown at the pcs. They excell at traps, so have tons of those. Have a bunch of fine sized vermin crawling or flying around that the kobolds are immune to (nat armor) that are constantly biting the pcs (for hourly damage, con drain, poison, disease) - includes leaches.

Also, if the tunnels were inhabited by trained dire weasels or giant snakes, that would be good too.

Guerilla warfare at its finest.

Of all the MM races, I imagined kobolds as having the most dangerous lairs.

Frosty
2009-03-03, 11:17 PM
With a party that uses DMM Persist on Mass Vigor? Not until it goes over the 24-hour game time mark, no. The problem with Tucker's Kobolds is that they're primarily a wearing down of the party. Prevent rest, slowly chip away at HP. With Mass Vigor Persisted on the party? That strategy doesn't work ... at least, not until you reach the point where Persistent Spells start to wear off. In order to fit a significant wear on them with low-level Kobolds, you'll need to get more direct - lots of kobolds in wide-open spaces where you can have a few hundred of them targetting each character, you're going to need to eat up those spell durations first.

Maybe use the mob template?

I guess I *could* have some dispel magic traps...

TheCountAlucard
2009-03-03, 11:28 PM
You might have some fun with the Hooded Pupil template from Libris Mortis. Now you've got blood-drinking kobolds that can Spider Climb and use Clutch of Orcus.

You might also try traps that specifically are triggered by being over a certain height or weight.

RS14
2009-03-04, 12:04 AM
Frankly, the classic implementation of Tucker's Kobolds is no longer innovative or interesting. Some things should be changed to make it cool.

Are the kobolds also in this dormant volcano?

If so, consider placing them in dormant Lava tubes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lava_tube). Perhaps some should be still slightly active, and with a very hot layer of lava across the floor. They could move through these across a mesh of cables strung over the floor, for as fiendish creatures, they have Resistance to Fire 5. The players can do so too, with a casting of Endure Elements, but it will still be difficult terrain. Consider having them be allied with a multitude of advanced Thoqqua, which bore tunnels for them.

Alternatively I think it would also be good to make the fight more vertical than is traditionally done. Have the cave complex set in the walls of an enormous vertical cave---something like this (http://public.carnet.hr/speleo/lukinajama/index_en.html). The kobolds, having carved narrow pathways and placed mesh ladders, can traverse it easily, but the players will need to either fly or balance. Of course, tunnels lead into the walls, too, and will be where most of the living spaces are placed. Some will be small, but some should be large, for guests or supplies. These should be sealable in some manner that the players can overcome.
Probably several kobolds will have nets to ensnare anyone who tries to fly. Make it possible to collapse large protrusions, too.

Myrmex
2009-03-04, 12:10 AM
What's preventing the players from saying "screw this", teleporting out, preparing a bunch of dimension doors (or buying scrolls or whatever), skip the boring traps, and hopping right to the prize?

Or preventing them from using earth glide, earthquake, cloudkill, rock to mud, etc. to turn the kobold's warren into a kill zone for the little twerps? A couple of protection from poison spells removes any danger of getting poisoned, and spells/items that prevent suffocation.

Tucker's kobolds aren't that big a threat to a party that can do something other than cast fireball.

Of course, this all hinges on the players being able to reprepare, assuming of course that they aren't prepared for an exercise in inanity after hearing of "Tuk'hurs" kobolds.

Baltor
2009-03-04, 12:49 AM
How attached are you to using kobalds? a DM I had once used awaikened shocker lizards in ankle deep water for an intresting minion encounter. every round they would go in unison healing any lizards that had been damaged and shocking the hell out of us.

Frosty
2009-03-04, 12:58 AM
What's preventing the players from saying "screw this", teleporting out, preparing a bunch of dimension doors (or buying scrolls or whatever), skip the boring traps, and hopping right to the prize?

Or preventing them from using earth glide, earthquake, cloudkill, rock to mud, etc. to turn the kobold's warren into a kill zone for the little twerps? A couple of protection from poison spells removes any danger of getting poisoned, and spells/items that prevent suffocation.

Tucker's kobolds aren't that big a threat to a party that can do something other than cast fireball.

Of course, this all hinges on the players being able to reprepare, assuming of course that they aren't prepared for an exercise in inanity after hearing of "Tuk'hurs" kobolds.

They will know that they will be fighting kobolds about 15 minutes before they go in. They will not have time to prepare new spells. Also, they don't know about Tucker's Kobolds. They like, NEVER prepare Cloudkill, rock to mud, or earthglide. I don't think any of them has earthquake.

Like i said, not very optimized, this group. They like things like Save or Lose spells, and also maximized direct damage spells that can work against single targets.

Magnor Criol
2009-03-04, 01:10 AM
[Stuffohyeahstuff]

I like these ideas. They change things up and make them difficult without making them insurmountable, and they're definitely not the normal ideas. Your players will remember a mile-long vertical shaft with crumbling, kobold-sized ledges and nets to drag people down.

Myrmex
2009-03-04, 01:23 AM
They will know that they will be fighting kobolds about 15 minutes before they go in. They will not have time to prepare new spells. Also, they don't know about Tucker's Kobolds. They like, NEVER prepare Cloudkill, rock to mud, or earthglide. I don't think any of them has earthquake.

Like i said, not very optimized, this group. They like things like Save or Lose spells, and also maximized direct damage spells that can work against single targets.

And they won't think to retreat and reprepare/buy scrolls?
They're screwed. :smallbiggrin:

ocato
2009-03-04, 01:30 AM
I think it would be appropriate for a clan of kobolds in direct service of a dragon guarding something of extreme importance to have a few mid-level (6-8) kobold sorcerers hanging around as chieftains or high-priests. You may find that with a few spells thrown into the mix, you can make some 'traps' that are pretty hard to shrug off, including creative use of Illusions, necromancy (dead kobolds riiiiiiise), and/or some good old fashioned black tentacles, solid fog, or dispel magic. If your party is in the early to mid-teens then a few 2nd through 4th level spells is probably well within the parameters of a fair challenge.

Also, not to detract from your quest or question your DMing, but I'd like to caution you in the use of NPCs during big battles. Make sure that your DMNPCs are playing second fiddle to the PCs or they're likely to get sore.

Frosty
2009-03-04, 02:30 AM
They don't have time to retreat. Also hanging in the balance is the life of one of their comrades (former PC which became NPC because the bard player got tired of playing a Warblade) has been kidnapped by the Red Dragon. They have a time limit in which to defuse the Dragon's plan, hence no going back for equipment or switching spells or whatnot.

The NPCs will likely be off holding off some of the lesser devils while the PCs deal with the Dragon. They won't be the ones that achieve victory.

Eldariel
2009-03-04, 03:54 AM
Kobolds are natural trapmakers and Sorcerers. Therefore, lots of low-level magic traps & especially stuff like Wall of Dispel Magic & Arcane Turmoil. Other than that, normal Tucker's tricks, but amplified to counteract the Vigor. For example, oil & fire would keep them burning which deals about as much damage as Vigor heals (until they cast Pro: Fire anyways). Murderholes and crossbows are still a good idea, though you might want to put some poison into works here; maybe simple Drow Poison or some Vermin-poison the Kobolds have extracted (give some Kobolds the "Vermin Trainer"-feat and stash some monstrous Vermins somewhere in the caverns). Just, think what an assassin would do and multiply that by the number of Kobolds around.

FatR
2009-03-04, 04:14 AM
Give up. Unless PCs are extremely, extremely, extremely dumb, or unused to challenge of any sort, the very idea of using opponents without some serious class levels is completely and utterly doomed from the start. Even if you cover the entire place in potent anti-divination/teleportation effects and the objects in question are too fragile to be excavated from rubble after destroying the entire dungeon, they still easily can swamp any sorts of traps or defenses by completely expendable summoned minions or infiltrate invisibly and intangibly or tunnel their own passages through the solid rock of whatever. Whatever defense you will prepare, it will fall apart the instant PCs refuse to just walk down the corridor, as opposed to using their actual abilities.

FatR
2009-03-04, 04:26 AM
They will know that they will be fighting kobolds about 15 minutes before they go in. They will not have time to prepare new spells. Also, they don't know about Tucker's Kobolds. They like, NEVER prepare Cloudkill, rock to mud, or earthglide. I don't think any of them has earthquake.

Like i said, not very optimized, this group. They like things like Save or Lose spells, and also maximized direct damage spells that can work against single targets.
OK, even if they don't know what "dungeon" is at 14-th level, what's going to stop them from hacking right through the walls and making their own tunnel to whatever place they want to go in? Because unless the walls release something nasty whenever damaged, that's quite easy.

Talic
2009-03-04, 04:58 AM
Trap Idea: Murder hole variation.

Assumption: Without stealth methods used, kobolds will have constant knowledge of party location through spyholes, arrow slits, and the like.

Assumption: Kobolds, with their affinity for stoneworking and mining, will have a home mined for defensive purposes.

Have a blocked in ceiling set up such that when a specific ladder is used (such as by kobolds fleeing a room shortly before party arrives, the ceiling collapses, opening a hole between the lower passage and an underground river/lake. The tunnel system and ceiling patch is designed so that the water will drain away about as fast as it enters, leaving about 6 inches to 1 foot of fast moving water in the room. This should cause a balance check every round of go prone (DC 20 or so).

Then, release shocker lizards, a half dozen or so.

jcsw
2009-03-04, 05:09 AM
If they're level 14 you can afford to give the kobolds basic spells.

Now, this technically uses quite a few class levels, but it also involves things a non-kobold would find hard to do.

1. Kobold has three natural attacks, give it the dragon tail feat (Races of the Dragon) for a fourth. Give it the Ghostly Tail (Races of the Dragon) as its spell-like for it's Kobold Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon). Make it a level 3 rogue, and give it the dragonfire strike (Dragon Magic). Have approximately five of them.

2. Take a level 5-ish sorc, with Draconic Reservoir (for the Greater Rite). Have him cast invisibility on each of the kobolds beforehand.

3. When the PCs step in, the Sorc pretends to be frightened and Flies (via the Swift Fly spell) to a high ledge. Have him web the PCs.

4. Sneak Attack fest.

Kol Korran
2009-03-04, 05:31 AM
first of all, i haven't read all of the post since i need to go soon, so i apologize if i repeat anything that has been said.

we've allready covered small tunnels, murder holes, oil and simple traps, right?
problem is, with a cleric and a wizard on board they probably have easy defenses against them. also- mostweapon won't hit the heavily armored knight. (i know some forumists will find ways around these obstacles, but thought to include them anyway).

my ideas mostly revolve around tools- the thinking humanoid's advantage against greater odds):
1) wands. throw in a big fight, perhaps with an added beasty or ooze brute to occupy most of the party, and have level 1-3 sorcerers and adept from behind, with level 3/4 wands from the dragon/devil's horde blast away. dispel magic could do wonders to frustrate the party (especially if the sorcerer imbued a potion of invisibility at the start of the battle). summon monster can occupy the wizard at least. fireballs/ cold balls/ scillinating spheres are great after a dispel magic. fear and confusion effects are a must (have you read Saph's journal?). and i'm sure you can find other uses. have the sorcerers innate spells be mage armor and shield (maybe even make them half dragons for some increased AC and energy resistence), and they are reasonably protected. it's basically facing a spell caster in multiple bodies that can cast several spells per round.

2) on the same fight or a different fight- poisons: try to mostly use contact or inhaled posions, as these bypass the high armor the characters probably have. dragon bile (there're a dragon nearby, no), black lotus extract, insanity mist or burnt uther fumes could all work nicely. sure, the cleric can restore them (if he has the spells), but it'll burn resources and put the fear in the players until it's all resolved. if the suggested poisons don't fit your style, just use some made up posion from the devils stock... something "special"

3) alchemical items: tagnle foot bag and caltrops are low cost tools to make things complicated. (imagine a descending corridor, when suddenly a boulder falls from behing, feeling the netire width, and caltrops fall all in front through holes in the celing. tanglefoot and caltrops can be used for "hit and run" tactics, or as part of traps. feel free to make augumented alchemical stuff (alchemist fire that never burns down unless you use cold energy aginst it?) to make things messier.

other ideas include the settng of battles and traps:
4) water: have the PCs descend a small corriodor (which later goes up) and then have porticules or boulders fall from the side, and unrushing water from above... oil is nice, but energy resistence protects from it. i haven't seen the cleric to prepare breath water for a mountain dungeon yet... also- have part of the cavern's be filled with water, and have the party fight kobolds with the endurance feat there (the kobolds just trying to keep them submerged so they'll drown. i'm a bit stumped for more ideas but you see where this is going.
5) falls: instead of 10ft hole have a 20-30 ft hole. a huge caven peppered with these covered holes, (the plate doesn't drop for anything under a dwarf's weight, so kobolds are safe)- a fall damages a character nicely, can't be easely prevented (except maybe for the wizard with fly), and takes a character out of the fight for 2-3 rounds. here's a thought (a bit of a cruel one)- have water pouring down a hole once someone falls into it (or the water could be there allready)

6) drakness: have the kobolds target the characters lanterns. or better yet- have a sorcerer with a wand cast darkness or deeper darkness on them. this could also be used in traps (as the characters try to navigae some slippery beams over an omnious fluid suddenly darkness befalls them! most clerics/ wizards won't have the right spells to counteract, making the character face a difficult situation. if you have kobolds fight in these conditions, make sure these are special teams with the "blind fighting" feat (or whatever it's called. forgot)

side idea: beasties and other fun creatures, that the kobolds cultivated:
7) hell hounds (forgot the name of the improved version). just fun to have cavalry kobolds, it would give the game more of a feel. have them ridden by half red dragon, and a sorcerer with a wand to throw a fireball in, and some kobolds throw alchemical fire to have your own small inferno. lets see how long their resistances last then.

8) gelatine cubes. sure, on their own they arenot a huge threat, but as part of a greater force or traps they are intimidating. one engluf and a character is out of the fight till the cube is perished. have the kobolds goad the adventureres onwards, and then, at a marked spot one of them pull a lever and a gelatine cubes falls out a huge hole in the ceiling. they can also be a part of a more "regular fight, and not attack the kobolds due to a sspeical essence (alchemical stuff) that the kobolds produced and smeared on their armor (it repels the cubes)

9) stirges: in great numbers they're as effective as poisons, and are real pests- draining con. all that was siad to poisons is true here, but here you don't need to worry that the party will get powerfull posions afterwards. if great numbers are difficult, just make them into swarms. shouldn't be hard.

damn! i have to go. i'll be back later if i have more ideas. hope this helps,
Kol

JellyPooga
2009-03-04, 05:40 AM
Assuming your players are familiar with the eponymous Tuckers Kobolds and will thus be expecting all the cunning traps and guerilla tactics, pull a fast one and throw (literally) a sect of looney dragon-worshipping cultist kobolds at them. Make them all have at least 1 level of Barbarian for Rage, but throw in a whole mix of other classes to represent their life before becoming a looney cultist. The combination of the diverse range of abilities whilst Raging should throw your players off balance whilst not challenging them too hard.

People just don't expect Kobolds to be effective in melee...make them. A wall of spear-wielding kobold fighters with Feats like Swarmfighting and Formation Expert can prove a particularly difficult obstacle to cross is used well. With just those 2 feats, 8 kobolds can fit into a 10x10 square; arm the first rank with Shortspears and Shields to get +1 AC and +10 to hit (+2 from Formation Expert and +8 from Swarmfighting) and then arm the second rank with longspears for reach and +10 to hit. If you also add more ranks to the rear of the formation (at 4 Kobolds per rank), any Kobolds in the third, fourth, fifth, or sixth rank can immediately replace any Kobold in the first rank that dies. Alternatively, arm them all with longspears and anyone approaching the formation is gonna get 4 AoO in the face from the first rank at the very least and if the second rank set spears vs. charge as well...That's a block of 24 Kobolds, of which 8 can always attack the 'face', where only 2 can attack it back (if this is taking place in a corridor, which it should be). Arm them all with crossbows as well and the 16 that aren't attacking in melee can attack too. Admittedly, this requires them all to have a BAB of +6 (for Formation Expert), but even if you take away Formation Expert and make them all Lvl.1 Fighters, they're still packing +8 to hit from Swarmfighting and getting 8 attacks per round (between them, not each!), which isn't something to be sniffed at.

Myrmex
2009-03-04, 06:21 AM
Nice work, JellyPooga. If you use the warrior class, the kobolds get -3 to their CR. That makes each kobold a CR 4 challenge.

Adding in a level 5 bard with song of the heart and inspire courage, along with the back rows of kobolds using aid another, and that is going to add up to a lot of +attack, which means these little guys could be power attacking while in their rage. Rage wont last long, though- 4 rounds for the average kobold, and it leaves them fatigued. At that point, they scramble down hidey-holes and raid arrows on them.

Remember! Numbers = more aid another.

Talic
2009-03-04, 06:30 AM
Disadvantage to wand based magic: Low caster level.

That said, it's good... Just not for dispel.

2nd. The dragon is known to consort with demons. Play it up, perhaps?

Kobolds are scouts for one or two Higher level kobolds that act as supplicants to your dragon. They happen to be able to request demonic aid.

So... The party deals with 5 rooms of kobolds, only to start running into dretches... And then the bigger things.

trehek
2009-03-04, 06:38 AM
I once got my PC party of similar levels really enjoy and respect an encounter with a kobold warband.

Kobolds = huge numbers
Kobold Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Warchief 8 = Challenging sympathetic kobold leader, who is good at avoiding area effects (Evasion) and anything that requires an attack roll on him (Devoted Bodyguards).

Since he's still a kobold, having 12 levels doesn't make him über for his CR. Have him lead a retreating attrition on the PCs. He can have a pack of archers around him. When the kobolds realize that the PCs assault will kill many of them, the warchief can use Tribal Frenzy to suddenly give the little kobolds a lot more +hit and +damage, making a pack of archers dangerous. And if the PCs try to attack the warchief, the archers can jump in the way with a "BOSS!!!!!" cry, which becomes really funny after it happens a few times. The kobolds don't last long in Frenzy, but agains PCs so strong they won't last long anyway. have the warchief shout around a lot of orders and have the tribe revere him to keep up the mood.

Stay protected by tribesmen and traps, and retreat to the next strongpoint if threatened, and heal up with some lvl 1 cleric kobolds when possible. Sooner or later the party will fry up his bodyguards with a fireball and finish him off, but he's still great fun!

JellyPooga
2009-03-04, 06:43 AM
The 'wall of kobolds' tactic has several applications...ideally, as GM, you should point out that the corridor is literally blocked with Kobolds and encourage the Players not to engage it, but rather find a way around. The formation should, for preference, not pursue the PCs. If they insist on attacking it, then they might find it more of a challenge than they expected and retreat. In effect, with judicious use of tunnels the PC's can't fit through, the formation of kobolds becomes a movable wall, allowing you (the DM) to force the players along particular paths, into the expected traps etc. without having complex revolving rooms, magical mazes and such. Eventually, the Players will be forced to assault the pre-prepared formation to get through or think up a cunning work-around.

To continue the 'disciplined martial kobolds' theme, you can also have the Kobolds lair patrolled by 8-man squads (mini-phalanx), creating perfectly justified 'wandering monsters' to interrupt attempts at rest or long actions. 8 Kobolds shouldn't pose to much of a threat, but they're enough to be a constant annoyance to the characters such that they'll have to move on.

Another encounter you can throw in is always the "Dire Weasel Stable": a whole bunch of Dire Weasels accompanied by a couple of Kobold Ranger/Druid 'Trainers' and 'Stableboys' poses a serious threat to any group of PCs...all that Constitution Damage from the weasels Attach ability can get nasty, forcing the party to use up valuable resources. Add to that the Trainers use of Mounted Combat feats and you have yourself a nice little encounter, challenging, but not too much so. Depending on how nice you're feeling, you can either have the Stable by the entrance (if you're feeling nasty), somewhere out of the way so they might not encounter it (if you're feeling nice) or directly before they get to the 'goal' (if you're feeling really nasty).

If you want to make the Stable encounter particularly viscious, give the Dire Weasels the Mob Template from the DMGII...Con Damage for everyone!

Kaiyanwang
2009-03-04, 08:39 AM
When I think about Kobolds, three things come in my mind:

- Kobold Trapmakers: play the cobold in a way that when the players enthusiatically follow them to finish them off, the fall into a trap.

Terrain advantage can even bring to situation where players are harassed by Kobolds advantaged by cover. If they move to remove Kobold's advantage, traps trigger.

- Kobold Packmasters: Kobolds able to train strange beasts and lead them in battle. Maybe proper of the environment (volcano =fire and the like I mean)

- Mini - bosses with dragon and/or fienish features, that Kobolds revere fanatically and are ready to sacrifice their lives to keep the bosses alive.

TheCountAlucard
2009-03-04, 03:00 PM
Speaking of traps, you might try employing magic traps. A continually-resetting trap of Greater Magic Weapon would most certainly make the kobolds more dangerous. To make things more fun, have it activate only for Small creatures, whereas if a larger creature tries to benefit from the trap, said creature suffers a Fireball to the face.

Frosty
2009-03-04, 08:26 PM
OK, even if they don't know what "dungeon" is at 14-th level, what's going to stop them from hacking right through the walls and making their own tunnel to whatever place they want to go in? Because unless the walls release something nasty whenever damaged, that's quite easy.

I never said they couldn't have class levels, but I don't want them to face just 5 or 6 kobolds with 10 class levels or whatnot. Maybe one of them can be a Bard or something. Inspire Courage can help low level kobolds hit the party.

They can *try* hacking through the tunnels...if they want it to cave in on them and possibly damage the items they need. also, they don't have digging tools and it'd take them too long to dig through with a longspear, a katana, and a quarterstaff. It's not like theis party prepares swift etherealness like...ever. There's a reason the NPC Beguiler didn't come along for this mission. It'd just be too easy and she'd steal all the glory.

Also, for an added twist, there's a group of friendly kobolds that didn't wish to follow the Red Dragon, so they were kicked out of their ancestral homes and the fiendish kobolds movedin. This is their home. The kobolds would prefer that the party doesn't trash it completely.

dyslexicfaser
2009-03-04, 11:18 PM
A few times, have them come upon kobolds fiddling with something down the hall. Give them one round. If they don't kill the kobolds in that time, they drop the ceiling; even if the party avoids it with good reflex saves, they have to find a way around or power through lots of rock.

Once they're blocked, have low-level dragonfire adepts (they work for a red dragon? they have to have some of these guys) show up from behind them (loves me some secret passages) and fill the corridor with fire breath. Just a few d6's of damage, but they don't need to roll to hit, and make sure at least one of which has the feat Entangling Exhalation (so they slow the PCs down and might get a few rounds of roasting the bastards before they have to flee), and they all have that first level DFA ability that lets them use their breath but doesn't accidentally cook their teammates. If you don't like DFAs, use crossbow-bolds with sleeping poison.

Alternately, have them drop the floor from under the PCs; you're in a volcano, you need at least one lava trap.

Have low-level sorcerors alternate with Grease, Web, that sticky one, and similar annoyances. If they ever fail their saves and fall or stick or stop, have kobolds in the ceiling drop ditherbombs or alchemist's fire, shout insults, and retreat.

When your PCs get to the artifacts they need, have the kobolds guarding it be in a natural cavern, and have them have wings and Improved Speed feats. Make the PCs catch them. Frustrate them.

That DMM Vigor is going to pretty much ensure they survive from pinking kobold attacks, but if you annoy them, that's almost as good.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-05, 12:31 AM
Random Ideas:

The characters approach a large metal seal. Note how there are no kobolds firing at them now. IF the characters are moderately smart, they will either just use a divination or not open the door at all. Otherwise...it leads to the volcano, which equals no more protection from fire.

My favorite "sucker" trap. Sticking in the wall is a large gemstone. When a PC tries to pull it out, they realize that the gem is covered in high DC contact poison (paralysis). Pass notes to the PC for this part, so the cleric doesn't immediately heal them. Then kobolds with breath weapons/crossbows open fire from every direction.

My personal favorite homemade trap: There is a narrow platform across a seeming 20ft pit. The bridge is illusion. One character falls in, and the others see him get up and shout "I'm all right!" They throw a rope down, he climbs up it, and they continue on their way. After they go about 150ft, the character disapears. Thats when they realize something is wrong.

What really happened is that there was an illusionary wall 20ft down in a 60ft pit. When the falling character passes through the illusionary wall, it triggers an illusion of him/her, which follows the actions described above. At the bottom, there are three spell traps: Hold person, dispel magic, and sink. (Plus a silence spell). They activate each round. Also, the pit begins to fill with acid, which does 1d6 damage for the first couple of rounds, but begins to deal 10d6 and the character must try not to drown, as they are being pulled under, having their magic dispelled, and being paralysed. Feel free to tone this one down, I made it for higher level characters.

Hope some of this helped :smallsmile:.

Limos
2009-03-05, 12:45 AM
Have the very first trap in the dungeon be a crystal that casts Mordenkaim's Disjunction.

That'll teach them to mess with Kobolds who have Fiend and Dragon allies.

Lycanthromancer
2009-03-05, 12:58 AM
You might want to use these variant kobolds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), since it'll make getting around in really small passageways easier, and it grants 'em a few other abilities.

You might also consider some fiendish Dragonwrought kobolds, as well.

And don't forget that even though level 1 sorcerers aren't generally a threat, each one should be able to cast magic missile from behind cover, and that 10 1st level magic missiles are just as good as two 9th level castings (but they don't grant XP at this level :smalltongue: ).

Most of the suggestions so far have been great (except for the one suggesting that you give up; kobolds are nasty, nasty, nasty li'l buggers, and even CR 1/4 creatures can be a serious challenge if they play smart). I second using the vertical shaft idea, but make it both UP and DOWN variants, in different parts of the dungeon. I'm sure you can come up with a few ideas on how to make going down rather painful, especially if someone decides to cast featherfall. :belkar:

Also remember that they have to get out of the dungeon after they succeed at their mission, and that having their beloved master slain will likely make the kobolds rather...ANGRY.

Triaxx
2009-03-05, 10:10 AM
Want to challenge them with Kobolds? Then ideally they should never see more than one Kobold. Preferably a single level 1 Sorceror. Generate a dungeon with multiple entrances and exits, all identical, and then trap certain corridors. So as they step into one, a Solid Fog trap goes off right in their face. They enter what seems to be a clear room, only to have a Stinking Cloud/Cloudkill go off as they cross the center of the room.

Counterproductive disarming is always fun. So the Rogue disarms a fire trap and gets hit with a blast from a CL 10 magic missile. Or he trips the fire trap and dodges the blast but still gets hit with the missiles. A five by five by five pit that contains a false floor and is really a five by five by fourty lava pit.

Then again, there's always that lone Kobold who's been casting level 1 magic missiles at them. Let them corner a Kobold, in sorcerors robes. Instead of being a sorceror though, it's a level 8-10 Frenzied Berserker Kobold.

Then again, Spider-mounted Wild Plains Outrider Kobolds with bows or crossbows and exploding bolts/arrows are always fun for any party.

kopout
2009-03-05, 05:19 PM
take any thing you wanthttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101770

Frosty
2009-03-05, 08:43 PM
take any thing you wanthttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101770

Ooh thanks I must bookmark.

I think instead of using lots of crossbows or darts that will get defeated by the DR my party has, they will instead cast LOTs of magic missiles from wands. A few dozen of them doing this every turn will harass my party for sure as they try to wade through the dungeon squeezing and crawling.

Frosty
2009-03-07, 01:44 AM
What tactics should change if the party has an intelligent spellbook cohort/familiar that is Tiny sized and can actually go after the kobolds? the spellbook itself vcasts as a level 11 wizard and is a construct with all the immunities that implies, and in addition, is immune to Fire, Magic Missile, has Improved Evasion, DR 5/Adamantine, Resist 5 everything else, and SR 18? The Wizard sunk a LOT of his wealth into it.

JellyPooga
2009-03-07, 04:32 AM
What tactics should change if the party has an intelligent spellbook cohort/familiar that is Tiny sized and can actually go after the kobolds? the spellbook itself vcasts as a level 11 wizard and is a construct with all the immunities that implies, and in addition, is immune to Fire, Magic Missile, has Improved Evasion, DR 5/Adamantine, Resist 5 everything else, and SR 18? The Wizard sunk a LOT of his wealth into it.

The Create Water spell is your friend here. Either that or a flooded tunnel, having to go through a waterfall or otherwise enforced drenching. It might be resistant to all that stuff, but it's still made of paper...so it's vulnerable to its ink running, it's pages getting wet and falling apart like a wet biscuit...if nothing else, you can get the damned thing scared

Failing that, the .303 bookworm :smalltongue:

Asheram
2009-03-07, 07:21 AM
Of course, this is Dwarves vs Goblins, but I'm sure Kobolds are ingenious enough to make it a variation.

Imagine a steamroller that takes up the whole tunnle, which the kobolds then proceed to push around in front of them.

Stolen from Legacy of the Drow ofcourse, but that's just because it's so awesome.

Tunnel's too tight,
Tunnel's too low,
Better run goblin,
'Cause here we go!

Every bump's a goblins head,
Pools of blood from the goblin dead.
Run, good dwarves, push that toy,
Squish the little goblin boys!

The sole reason to why you shoud FEAR dungeons that have curved turns instead of straight angle ones.