3.x D&D EL1 Large-sized race feasible?

[Mindstab_Thrull]

So, I've been doing some thinking on and off here and there, and think I might have come up with a feasible Large-sized race. Haven't got names or 'feels' (ie 'fluff') yet, but mechanically I think it's balanced. Conceptually I'm using Human as my starting point.

Human gets:
Bonus feat
Extra skill points
Highest class level is favoured
Medium size
Movement rate of 30
Type: Humanoid (human).

So, here we go:
* Sacrificing the bonus feat to get Large size. A good analogy would be something like a 'forced' Monkey Grip or Powerful Build, but since you're being reduced to a specific feat rather than any feat, it's a lil better as compensation. You get the extra size rather than just being able to act like it.
* Sacrifice your bonus skills for +1 natural armor class.
* Restrict the Favoured Class to a specific one - Fighter or Barbarian seem most likely.
* Stat adjustments: I see +2 Str, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. Barbarian 'feels' more right to me as Favoured Class doing it that way. If the penalties were to Dex, I'd want a +2 NAC; this seems more balanced to me.
* Type would likely become Giant, as the biggest danger IMO is level 1 Enlarge Person being tossed on him. For the sake of argument and example:
- L1 you take Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana, I believe)
- Enlarge Person on yourself
- Swing with a Huge longsword - or Greatsword, if you really want to break it. I hear dealing out 4d6 per swing at level 1 is Some Good.
If you want to stick with PHB, try a normal Sorceror with a Huge morningstar instead. I think that 'only' ends up being 3d6 instead.

So:

BigDude Racial Traits:

+2 Strength, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. BigDudes are powerful but not as quick when dealing with others.
Giant type: BigDudes are of the Giant type, rather than a type of Humanoid. As such, they are unaffected by spells and abilities that only affect Humanoids, such as enlarge person and charm person.
Large: As a Large creature, a BigDude can use larger weapons and carry more than Medium charactes, but take a -1 size penalty to Armor Class and attack rolls, and a -4 size penalty on Hide checks.
BigDude base land speed is 30 feet.
+1 natural armor class.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Lanuages: Orc, Draconic, Gnoll, Dwarf. Smart BigDudes learn the languages of their neighbours.
Favoured class: Barbarian.


Also remember too that equipment will cost more (generally twice as much) for a Large size creature, and generally will have to be custom-ordered.

So.. is this balanced for an EL1 creature?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

One major problem: Reach. Quite simply put, Reach is not balanced for an EL 1 character without some significant drawbacks. The sheer advantage of having an AoO when your opponent closes to melee is enough to put it over the top in terms of what is even remotely balanced. I'd have to see a lot more negatives in this race to allow it in any game I run.

[Mr.Moron]

It's not balanced in that it's too weak. It's far worse than human in most every respect, because you've taken human as a baseline and traded in every feature for something less useful.

Large isn't worth a bonus feat. First off, it lowers your AC, makes it hard to get around, and turns a character would ordinarily simply be "not stealthy" into "always impossibly obvious".

The biggest benefit to be had via large, is the grapple & trip bonuses, which while nice are easily simulated and/or surpassed a number of ways.

You talk about the extra damage from using large weapons, but it's hardly meaningful in the long run. Even at low levels, it's kind of pointless. Most things are going to be 1-shotted by a 2d6+4 medium weapon anyway. It doesn't matter if you kill the 5-hp goblin with 11 damage or 14, it's still a creamy paste. Something tougher and boss like, is very unlikely to be in the small window of hp ~11-14 where he'll likely die in 1-shot to a large weapon but not a medium.

Chances are if you need to swing twice with a normal weapon, you need to swing twice with a big one. *AND* both swings are less likely to hit because you're big (vs using a medium race with a +2 STR bonus).

Another poster mentions reach, but large size doesn't inherently grant reach (you should clarify if the race does or not).Even then, it wouldn't be a huge advantage a medium creature can use a reach weapon, along with armor spikes for comparable effect.

All-in-all, being large at best breaks as a neutral property, leaning towards a racial weakness.Good for throwing out impressive over-kill numbers at level 1, but not much else (besides getting stuck in narrow dungeon corridors for his entire career).

You give a natural armor bonus, but it's hardly worth anything at all. Pretty much the only thing that targets standard AC, are physical attacks. Which are the least threatening thing in the game.

He's already easier to hit with touch attacks, and his will save is down from the wisdom hit, which on top of being attractive to brusier-types (bad will classes) it's only compounding the problem.

Being restricted to barbarian isn't as bad as some others, but it still leaves much to be desired.

Also, he has -4 stats for only one +2. It's just not a fair trade off. Heck, STR is pretty much the easiest in the game to boost, so it's probably not even worth an even trade in other stats (even for a bruiser type).


These guys could use some punching up. Frankly, any race designed towards being a melee-specialist should get some nice toys compared to a generalist, or caster leaning race.

[Draz74]

Another poster mentions reach, but large size doesn't inherently grant reach (you should clarify if the race does or not).Even then, it wouldn't be a huge advantage a medium creature can use a reach weapon, along with armor spikes for comparable effect.

Disagree.

First, reach is inherent in the Large size for any remotely humanoid-shaped creature. It wouldn't hurt to specify it, but it seems pretty obvious to me.

Second, you're missing the fact that this guy can still use a reach weapon and armor spikes, thus threatening a whoppng 96 squares in combat. Yeah, that's definitely not underpowered, and possibly validates Djinn's opinion that Large size is still worth a +1 LA when paired with the other properties of this race.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

^^He speaks the truth.

Also, I'm not just basing this on opinion. I recently played in an Eberron game where, for strange plot related reasons, I was given the option of taking a Size increase (Medium to Large, +1 Natural Armor, +2 Strength, and -2 Dex) instead of my next level (we were approaching level 8). I chose the size increase, as appropriately fitted the character in question (a Orc Barbarian).

Almost immediately I noticed the change in effectiveness. Against any medium or smaller creature I was ungodly, even without feats like Large and in Charge or Combat Reflexes to monopolize on my increased reach. I dominated close corridors and confined spaces, effectively blocking off up to half the battlefield by my presence and the effectiveness of my Attacks of Opportunity. It was frightening...so much so that we actually had me skip my next leveling up as well, at which point I fell more in line with the rest of the party. Albeit against large and larger foes this will be less of an issue, but as many enemies or bosses are humanoid and roughly medium sized, it is a pressing concern.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Looks like there's some debate on whether Large itself is a big enough reason to give an EL.

Djinn feels the extra 5' reach is a big deal - which, I agree, it can be. Of course, there's all sorts of ways to avoid that - ranged combat, for example. If you're a melee fighter, you should make sure you're willing to take AoO's for the team.

Mr Moron makes a few interesting comments. To respond:
- Human was being used as a baseline for design purposes; keep in mind this isn't meant to be a 'Large human'. I hope you understand this. I could have used Half-Orc as my starting point, but I felt Human made more sense.

- The major benefits of being Large, in my opinion, are two things: Combat damage and reach. If you're not playing a combat character, you might as well go with a standard EL1 race.

Standard medium-sized race, longsword, +1 Strength modifier: 1d8+1, average 5.5
Large race, longsword, +1 Strength modifier: 2d6+1, average 9
Sure, against a Goblin, the difference is fairly irrelevant, unless it actually has some sort of PC noncasting class or more than one level.
(As for "2d6+4 weapon", I'm presuming you were talking about Greatsword and 18 Strength; a lot of people I know prefer the "sword and board" route instead.)
- Having a 10' reach and using a reach weapon are two completely different things. Take a look at the PHB. All the reach weapons that a Fighter can use without any special proficiencies can't be used to attack within 5' reach - which means, drop the weapon, pull out the longsword, and *maybe* get an attack in. Those that allow you to threaten within 5' as well are Exotic. However, having a 10' reach means you threaten everything that's within 5' and within 10' of you, and a Reach weapon for a Large creature means you threaten 15' away. Because of this, most people heading for a combat role consider being Large a bonus rather than a penalty.
- As for the armor class, Large creatures often have a bonus on armor due to thicker skin and such. The NAC basically balances out the size penalty when they're relevant. And yes, the favoured class restriction was somewhat random; without any flavour built yet, it was either that or Fighter, and Barbarian just felt like it made more sense.
- If you check in the DMG, the stat match is actually right about on. A bonus of +2 to Strength is typically balanced by either of: -2 to Dexterity or Constitution, or -2 to any two of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The simple fact is a bonus to Strength is a bigger boon to combat-oriented characters, and quite often they're more than willing to dump their mental/social stats to the floor to do it. Who cares if the Orc Barbarian has a 6 Charisma and an 8 Intelligence if he's got a 22 Strength *before* rage?

As for Djinn's experience, I can't really say anything about that, but if the only difference was +1 LA for a Large Orc, I think that's a little much. You lose a grand total of one point on AC and attack bonus and -4 to Hide, and wield larger weapons and threaten a larger range. Did he make you pay any difference for your equipment size too?

If you don't think this race is fairly balanced, I challenge you to come up with your own EL1 Large creation. Put it up against a typical EL1-based party and see what happens. Give them all the same base stats, adjusted only for race - perhaps the Elite array is best. Give them all equipment appropriate for a level 3 character. If the creature balances out with the party, great. If it's too strong, maybe the Large creature needs to be LA+1. If it's still too strong, LA+2.

[paddyfool]

I suggest having a look at the Giantkin class in the Tears of Blood campaign setting...

[Mindstab_Thrull]

I suggest having a look at the Giantkin class in the Tears of Blood campaign setting...

Haven't heard of the setting - are we talking a typical D&D setting a la Eberron, Forgotten Realms, etc, or something for a different series such as d20 Modern?

[Malfunctioned]

Haven't heard of the setting - are we talking a typical D&D setting a la Eberron, Forgotten Realms, etc, or something for a different series such as d20 Modern?

Tears of Blood is a setting for D&D made by posters on GiTP, there's a link to the subforum on top of the homebrew page.

[paddyfool]

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19). You'll find stats & rules for the giantkin under the current draft, and a very extensive discussion of them somewhere in the old threads. On the whole, they're on the high side for ECL 0.

[Mr.Moron]

Disagree.

First, reach is inherent in the Large size for any remotely humanoid-shaped creature. It wouldn't hurt to specify it, but it seems pretty obvious to me.


Strictly speaking, only space is defined by size. Other rules, such as Trips & Stealth skills have modifiers that they define by stealth, but aren't part of size itself.

Reach on the other hand, is entirely separate from size and defined on a creature-by-creature basis. Strictly speaking you could have colossal creature with no reach (must enter it's opponents space to attack).

Yes, weapon-using creatures of large size overwhelmingly have reach 10 (centaurs are the first to pop into mind as an exception). It certainly warrants clarification.



Second, you're missing the fact that this guy can still use a reach weapon and armor spikes, thus threatening a whoppng 96 squares in combat. Yeah, that's definitely not underpowered, and possibly validates Djinn's opinion that Large size is still worth a +1 LA when paired with the other properties of this race.

It's nice to throw out a number like "96 Squares" but it doesn't mean much. They key to reach is hitting your opponent before they hit you, so you can do damage or trip. It doesn't really matter if you do it when they're 10' or 25' away so long as you're doing it outside their attack range. Unless you're hitting upwards of 30' reach, and tripping up opponent's at their maximum move range you just won't be getting much more out of it.

Remember, you only get one AoO against a given opponent on a single move. It doesn't matter how much space you threaten, you're only going to get 'em once as he closes the distance. That's even assuming you have the combat reflexes feat and the dex needed to make more AoOs.

Anyone who is likely sitting around provoking non-movement AoOs, (ranged attacks, spell casters) is still well out of range of your large-reach. Well unless they're spamming color-spray at you. In which case you've got other, much bigger problems to worry about.



Almost immediately I noticed the change in effectiveness. Against any medium or smaller creature I was ungodly, even without feats like Large and in Charge or Combat Reflexes to monopolize on my increased reach.

"Ungodly"?

You can do hit point damage to them, and trip them more easily. About 3.5 more hit point damage at best. So the advantage can't be in the damage.

You also get +4 on Trip, Grapple etc:
Heck, that only breaks you even against something medium with 4 legs. I guess if you're mostly running up against halfling warriors I can see the domination, but even a pack of simple pack of wolves is going to give you a run for your money on the tripping.

You get a nice boost on grapple, I'll give you that. But this thing screams brawny fighter so people aren't in a rush to grapple you anyway.




I dominated close corridors and confined spaces, effectively blocking off up to half the battlefield by my presence and the effectiveness of my Attacks of Opportunity.

You said you didn't have combat reflexes, you get exactly one attack of opportunity. That just doesn't scream DOMINATION to me. I mean maybe if the encounters all played right into your strength: a single enemy, 2-legged, small, melee combatant, without tumble, using vanilla skills. Then yes, I can see how you'd dominate.

You said your group was level 8?:

Opponents can move through your bulk if they have tumble, match your size modifiers while still medium if they have 4 legs. Out-range you any number of ways. Do god-knows-what to you with magic (4th level spells are in play at that point).

Heck if it's the size game that matters, you're large.

They (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/whale.htm#baleenWhale) are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) potentiality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/whale.htm#cachalotWhale) gargantuan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousCentipede.htm) at (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm). Heck, even collosal.



It was frightening...so much so that we actually had me skip my next leveling up as well, at which point I fell more in line with the rest of the party.

What was the rest of party, 22-point buy gnome monks? Even amongst otherwise relatively evenly built melee types a size increase isn't going to make you that much better than them. In a balanced party, with some casters in it it's just downright silly.



Albeit against large and larger foes this will be less of an issue, but as many enemies or bosses are humanoid and roughly medium sized, it is a pressing concern.

This is entirely campaign-specific. You certainly shouldn't be balancing a race round the assumption "Every important enemy will be a 2-legged, melee class, humanoid". There is certainly a lot more to consider fighting than men with swords. In fact, most of the enemies in the game are not men with swords.



Looks like there's some debate on whether Large itself is a big enough reason to give an EL.

I really don't think it is.



Djinn feels the extra 5' reach is a big deal - which, I agree, it can be. Of course, there's all sorts of ways to avoid that - ranged combat, for example. If you're a melee fighter, you should make sure you're willing to take AoO's for the team.

Reach in melee is very nice. However there are ways to reach, (and still threaten adjacent - armor spikes) while medium. This means the "Natural" reach of this large race isn't that much of an advantage over a non-large race. That they get some tacked on if they also take a reach weapon, is an advantage but not a large one, as the first few squares of reach beyond the 2nd, just aren't as important.



- Human was being used as a baseline for design purposes; keep in mind this isn't meant to be a 'Large human'. I hope you understand this. I could have used Half-Orc as my starting point, but I felt Human made more sense.

I don't mean it should be a "Large Human" but if human is being used as the baseline, it should offer trades that a roughly as valuable as a human. That is, if you're trading in a bonus feat you should get something as useful as a bonus feat is.

It's fine if trade-in is specialized of course, such as in melee, as you'd expect with a large brawny race. But it still has to be worth just as much in that area. In other words, given two Warriors otherwise exactly the same.

One is large, one takes Power Attack as is human bonus feat. The two should, in the long run, break somewhat even. Of course the large guy can take power attack later, but the human can take power-attack related feats sooner.

In other words, his bonus for giving up the feat, should be roughly worth what he could potentially have from that feat at any given point.

Given the open-ended nature of features, this is actually pretty tall order to fill.



- The major benefits of being Large, in my opinion, are two things: Combat damage and reach. If you're not playing a combat character, you might as well go with a standard EL1 race.

The combat damage is piddling, tiny, worthless, junk, a non-factor. The maximum you can get from it is +1d6, at best. Usually less. You're taking a -1 on attack rolls (large).

Which means you'd have the same chance to hit attacking as large, as you would power attacking for one. That's another +2 damage. You're looking at an average difference of 1.5 damage more, tops on a character built to melee damage. And you can't even turn it off when accuracy is more important. It's just stuck "On". 1.5 damage isn't worth much at level 1, and it certainly doesn't get worth more as you level.

The damage advantage of being large over medium is just plain silly to count as a real advantage. most certainly not a "Major Advantage"




Sure, against a Goblin, the difference is fairly irrelevant, unless it actually has some sort of PC noncasting class or more than one level.

There is a very narrow number of cases where this relevant. Generally around 2 d10 levels and +2 con mod. More than that and both weapons have to swing twice to kill. Less than that, both tend to 1-shot.



(As for "2d6+4 weapon", I'm presuming you were talking about Greatsword and 18 Strength; a lot of people I know prefer the "sword and board" route instead.))

It assumes a greatsword with 16 strength (18s are unusual) +3*1.5 = 4. An 18 Strength would be 2d6+6 (+4 * 1.5 = 6) and render the large weapon even more meaningless damage wise.

The sword & board issue isn't relevant to a balance discussion. Some people may like it, but if you're talking about doing damage it's strictly the weakest option.

You just don't design around the damage output of the weakest possible damage setup. Even then, the damage difference is still piddling.






- Having a 10' reach and using a reach weapon are two completely different things. Take a look at the..(snip)... heading for a combat role consider being Large a bonus rather than a penalty.


Armor Spikes are martial, cheap, and can be used to make standard melee attacks against adjacent foes no matter what you have on-hand. Again, reach 10/adjacent isn't something off limits to medium or small creatures.



- As for the armor class, Large creatures often have a bonus on armor due to thicker skin and such. The NAC basically balances out the size penalty when they're relevant. And yes, the favoured class restriction was somewhat random; without any flavour built yet, it was either that or Fighter, and Barbarian just felt like it made more sense.

Natural Armor DOES NOT balance out the size penalty in the least. It applies to only standard armor, not touch. Touch is a more important AC than standard. Having -1 Size +1 NA is strictly inferior to the standard AC setup


- If you check in the DMG, the stat match is actually right about on. A bonus of +2 to Strength is typically balanced by either of: -2 to Dexterity or Constitution, or -2 to any two of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The simple fact is a bonus to Strength is a bigger boon to combat-oriented characters, and quite often they're more than willing to dump their mental/social stats to the floor to do it. Who cares if the Orc Barbarian has a 6 Charisma and an 8 Intelligence if he's got a 22 Strength *before* rage?


I've read that section of the DMG. They're off their rocker. STR is not important enough to demand to mental stat hits, not by a long shot. +2 STR is going to net you +1 to hit, and either +1 or +2 to damage, depending on what you're jumping from (+1 if you're using a 1-handed weapon).

A hit to wisdom hurts your will save, which is extremely important. It also hits your perception skills, which is less of a big deal, but still annoying.

(as an aside, citing core for balance is a bit like citing a coal miner on fuel plant design. it is the same group of books that put the druid in the same pot with the monk after all.)



If you don't think this race is fairly balanced, I challenge you to come up with your own EL1 Large creation. Put it up against a typical EL1-based party and see what happens. Give them all the same base stats, adjusted only for race - perhaps the Elite array is best. Give them all equipment appropriate for a level 3 character. If the creature balances out with the party, great. If it's too strong, maybe the Large creature needs to be LA+1. If it's still too strong, LA+2.

This is more of a test for CR than LA (besides the fact both are wonky systems and few things are worth a level loss, even on a melee character). Even then, level 1 is hardly the best testing ground for a balance. An NPC warrior with a great axe and a 10 in STR still 1-shots anything squishier than a ranger, on an average hit.

Despite all the talk about level-1 balance, it's a really bad place to approach things from. Values are so low and things are so swingy it's hard to get a fix on all but the most obvious of power-plays (mostly spells).

[Fax Celestis]

Strictly speaking, only space is defined by size. Other rules, such as Trips & Stealth skills have modifiers that they define by stealth, but aren't part of size itself.

Reach on the other hand, is entirely separate from size and defined on a creature-by-creature basis. Strictly speaking you could have colossal creature with no reach (must enter it's opponents space to attack).False. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat)

Large (Tall) creatures (basically, anything that stands upright) have 10' reach. Large (Long) creatures (basically, anything that is quadrupedal) have 5' reach. It Is In The Rules™. Yes, yes, it says "exceptions exist", but those are, well, "exceptions to the rule".

That being the case, in order for your Large creature displayed here to not have 10' reach, you will need to clarify that it is either long-shaped (like a tiger, horse, or bear), or that it explicitly does not have 10' reach despite standing upright. Maybe it's got stubby little arms.

[Mr.Moron]

False. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat)

Large (Tall) creatures (basically, anything that stands upright) have 10' reach. Large (Long) creatures (basically, anything that is quadrupedal) have 5' reach. It Is In The Rules™. Yes, yes, it says "exceptions exist", but those are, well, "exceptions to the rule".

That being the case, in order for your Large creature displayed here to not have 10' reach, you will need to clarify that it is either long-shaped (like a tiger, horse, or bear), or that it explicitly does not have 10' reach despite standing upright. Maybe it's got stubby little arms.

Fair enough. I admit that despite my confidence, I was wrong about creatures larger than medium having reach. No two ways about it, it is there In black and white or, black-and-brown as the page's color scheme happens to be. Thank you for the correction, I've learned something.

That point having been defeated, I still stand by my assertion that simply having the large size (reach included) isn't as big an advantage as it's being made out to be, and I still think the race is rather lackluster. It certainly isn't overpowered, as was the OPs main concern.

[Fax Celestis]

That point having been defeated, I still stand by my assertion that simply having the large size (reach included) isn't as big an advantage as it's being made out to be, and I still think the race is rather lackluster. It certainly isn't overpowered, as was the OPs main concern.

I am of the opinion that large size or (powerful build) coupled with a type that prevents ready application of enlarge person is not worth a level adjustment in and of itself.

[Salvonus]

Hmm... Looking at the race, I'm not sure of the balance. More than anything else, I'd say that its major damage is simply that it's extremely... bland. Size, mental stat penalties, and minor natural armour... It just doesn't have any interesting abilities.

I'd disagree that "Large size isn't worth a feat". If I was a human melee front-liner, I would take that feat every time if it fit my character concept. Reach and more weapon damage (also, better tripping and grapple) for -1 AC and -1 Attack? I'd take that. Most front-liners aren't going to have enough AC to avoid getting hit at Level 1 anyway (in my experience). :smallconfused: Better to just dish out a lot of damage quickly...

I mean, people take Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun) at first level, and that doesn't even give all the benefits of large size (if memory serves).

The BigDude race, as written, is not too weak. I'm not sure if it's too powerful - I'm not as good a judge of that. But I wouldn't say it's at all weak - way better than Orc or Half Orc, two races oft-considered "weak" at LA+0.

That said, there's no way that Large size alone is worth a whole level. It's good, but not THAT good.

I'd say the other possibility is to take a page from Fax's book at use HD rather than LA. Large size with 1 HD (that you don't lose) represents a degree of lost class abilities that might balance things without losing the all-important BAB, HD, and Skills. Make it a Monstrous Humanoid - full BAB, d8 HD, Good Reflex and Will saves, Darkvision, and Simple Weapon Proficiency. That would be pretty fair, in my opinion, as you could add some interesting abilities without worrying about it being unbalanced for LA+0. Keep in mind that you could also (arguably) still play this race at ECL 1 - you just start with the Hit Dice rather than a class level. Depending on the racial abilities beyond Large size, that could be ultimately rather balanced...

Now, my question would be - can you make a proper Construct (not a Living Construct, mind) at LA+0? I have a feeling the HD route may be the only way, and Construct Hit Dice are kinda crap. What about a Large Construct? :smalltongue:

[Mindstab_Thrull]

For convenience, I'm going to pull out the table that compares Medium and Large weapon damage, edited slightly for relevance (from PHB 3.5 p114, ignoring the Tiny column, and reorganized for dice).

Medium Large
Uncommon Damage
1d2 1d3
1d3 1d4
1d4 1d6
1d12 3d6
Common Damage
1d6 1d8
1d8 2d6
1d10 2d8
2d4 2d6
2d6 3d6
Mostly Monk Unarmed
2d8 3d8
2d10 4d8


That being said, notice that a 1d8 weapon goes to 2d6 (average 4.5 to 8), 1d10 becomes 2d8 (mostly heavy crossbow and bastard sword - average 5.5 to 10), and 2d6 becomes 3d6 (average 7 to 10.5). So yes, the assessment that a Large creature will deal an extra 3.5 damage is close enough to accurate, based solely on size. (Of course, that extra damage becomes more relevant when you crit, but that's another story.) Keep in mind too that +3.5 damage is what you'd get from a +7 to Strength, and if it was to be a global bonus to Strength, you're probably still getting a +4 just for that - never mind any inherent racial modifiers.
I didn't include armor spikes because as far as I'm concerned, they're not really relevant to the argument - they only are relevant if one side has them and the other doesn't. And many players I know don't even bother with them.


One is large, one takes Power Attack as is human bonus feat. The two should, in the long run, break somewhat even. Of course the large guy can take power attack later, but the human can take power-attack related feats sooner.

So, assume Large is a feat, as that's how I calculated it. I do an extra 3.5 (let's call it 3 for convenience) damage for being Large with a -1 to hit and a -1 to AC. To do the same amount of extra damage, a character with Power Attack will take a -3 to hit with no difference to AC. Compare this to, say, a human with Powerful Build or Monkey Grip plus Power Attack. From where I sit, they seem to balance at about level 3.

I guess I oopsed a lil when I forgot that you get Strength-and-a-half with the Greatsword.. I haven't played a melee character in quite a while, usually stuck being DM. :P So you're +1 for correcting me there and -1 for the reach vs size bit ;) And I disagree with your assessment of their assessment; again, Orc Barbarian is an easy ECL1 example. Using the basic Elite array and racial modifiers only:

Array: 15/14/13/12/10/8. For Bbn1, I'd probably put them down almost exactly in that order.
Orc modifiers: +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha

Orc Bbn1
Str 19, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 6
When raging, Str 23, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 6.

Assume longsword for convenience - it's more cost-efficient, for one - a Greatsword costs 50gp, which is a huge drawback at level 1, compared to a much more budget-friendly 15gp, and allows sword-and-board if that's what you find you want or need.

So.. +1 BAB, +4 to hit for Strength = +5 to hit.
Typical monster AC is going to be around 15 (often 13 with some higher, so I'll say 15 to average it out).
You'll hit on a 10, 8 when you rage. You'll do an average of 4.5 damage plus Strength, so 8.5 to 10.5 damage per hit.

Compare a Large creature with +2 Str/-2 Wis/-2 Cha, otherwise the same.
Array: 15/14/13/12/10/8.
Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 6.
When raging, Str 21, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 6.

+1 BAB, -1 Size modifier, +3 Str = +3 to hit.
Attacking AC 15 requires a 12 to hit. If memory serves me right, that's the penalty you take for Monkey Grip for using an oversized weapon (-2 compared to the 10 for the Orc).
Damage is 2d6+3, averaging 10, 12 when raging.

Net result is a -2 to hit for +1.5 on damage. Even if you change it over to Greatsword, you're looking at 2d6+6 and 2d6+9 (average 13 and 16 damage) for the Orc vs 3d6+4 and 3d6+7 (14.5 and 17.5). Total difference is basically what you get for Power Attack in your first level or two. Looks like a fair trade to me overall. Also increased threat range, and then you start thinking about "I wonder if the DM would allow ranged weapons to have larger range increments..?"

As for the comment that the race is 'bland' - well, to be honest, I wasn't worrying about that part yet. I certainly don't mind giving it some rhyme or reason; I just wanted to get the mechanical part out of the way first. :)

[Mr.Moron]

For convenience, I'm going to pull out the table that ....
......
As for the comment that the race is 'bland' - well, to be honest, I wasn't worrying about that part yet. I certainly don't mind giving it some rhyme or reason; I just wanted to get the mechanical part out of the way first. :)

While it's interesting to seem some weapons produce slightly higher numbers going to large, as high as 5.5. Nothing here really changes my original stance about the importance or value of those increases. I'd still take issue with your using 1-handed weapons (wielded one-handed) in a discussion about damage output. However I don't think it's going to be particularly constructive to continue on about it. My opinion is known and i've already been far too argumentative already, so I'll just concede anything else on the size/balance issue form here on out.


That aside, when it comes to making the race more "interesting", you could do it by staggering features.Some races, such as Dragonborn or Raptoran give out their bonuses by scaling them to HD. Since you're already at the point where you consider the race to be borderline overpowered, it could be a nice way to get more (or give out what it already has) with no fear of low-level domination.

[Salvonus]

Arguably, though, the biggest advantages of being large have nothing to do with damage.

Large size grants:
10 ft. Reach
+4 on Bull Rushes
+4 to Disarm vs. Medium creatures (+8 vs. Small, +0 vs. Large)
+4 on Grapple checks
+4 on Overrun checks
+4 on Sunder vs. Medium creatures (+8 vs. Small, +0 vs. Large)
+4 on Trip checks

Those two bold bits are especially relevant. Large size improves nearly all of your core combat options, including the all-important Trip; sure, you generally take a -1 in attack, but that's more than mitigated by your racial +2 strength. Sure, you take -1 AC, but you have reach only matched at first level by a Spiked Chain; and, hell, if we're bringing that into the mix, you could just use one yourself for 20 ft. reach. Reach is extremely valuable at any level. :smalltongue:


I would like to point out that the Expansion power could be used by a BigDude to go Huge (and eventually Gargantuan at Level 7). The mitigating factors are probably that Expansion is a Personal-range power (it can't be cast on you like Enlarge Person) and that the only class to have it at first level has Wisdom as a key stat.

Hm... You could potentially get it at first level through Hidden Talent. :smallconfused:

Hm... Wow, a BigDude psi-gish would be pretty wicked. Psion+Full BAB class+Slayer. Expanded Knowledge: Expansion. Wow. :smalltongue:

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Mr M: The reasoning for sticking with one-handed weapons is actually simple, although I agree it's highly debatable.
Part of it is a matter of the character's budget at level 1. While a character of a typical size may afford 50 gp for a Greatsword, the same thing can't necessarily be said for the 100 gp required for a Large Greatsword. A first-level Barbarian, assuming no LA or other classes, will have on average 100 gp to spend on equipment. I believe you and I would both agree that picking up a suit of studded leather at least would be a great boon to a Large creature, and that will set the character back I believe 50gp as well.
It's not reasonable to try and equip a Large character with a Greatsword and armor unless everyone starts off with maximum gold, which I remember only having seen happen in one campaign I've played in, going as far back as 1e AD&D when I started nearly 30 years ago. Thus, I submit that a more cost-efficient weapon is a better choice under these circumstances; if we're talking level 1 characters, I suggest "Season 1, episode 1" versions, rather than after they've been adventuring for a while.
Also, the other available option is wielding a weapon in each hand. Granted, lowered chance to hit, but more opportunities to connect, and then the damage can be split among more than one target. If we're talking pure damage, I submit that the 4d6+(STRx1.5) potential for two longswords is greater than the 3d6+(STRx1.5) for the greatsword, and is also better if your opponent makes a successful disarm attempt against you - you still have a weapon in your hand.

As for the damage output difference: I had a scenario - an arena-style setting, if you wish - which I called the ATP (Accelerated Training Program). Its function from a player's and DM's angle was to bring a character from level 1 up to level Useful as quickly as possible. As a result, most challenges were (purposely) higher than the average party level. Especially in a specialized environment like this, and encounters higher than the party are not unheard of in 'regular' settings, the extra damage output does make a difference. As an example: an average of 7 damage in two swings means it may take you two rounds to defeat an opponent rather than three, and you may not get that third round. I'm sure you agree that Bull's Strength is useful for reasons like this.

I don't know if I consider this overpowered or not; I know that to me it feels balanced. I do, however, like the idea of scaling abilities to hit dice, such as the Raptorans being able to Fly after they complete their Walks. I'm not sure if any of the racial abilities I listed really make sense for scaling though. But it's something I can look into.

One other thing I forgot: According to the Monster Manual, Giants have low-light vision. Would the general consensus be to allow LLV without changing the EL?

[Fax Celestis]

Arguably, though, the biggest advantages of being large have nothing to do with damage.

Large size grants:
10 ft. Reach
+4 on Bull Rushes
+4 to Disarm vs. Medium creatures (+8 vs. Small, +0 vs. Large)
+4 on Grapple checks
+4 on Overrun checks
+4 on Sunder vs. Medium creatures (+8 vs. Small, +0 vs. Large)
+4 on Trip checks

You forgot a +4 bonus on Intimidate v. Medium creatures (+8 v. Small, +0 v. Large).

[Mr.Moron]

Size Issues
Okay.



I'm not sure if any of the racial abilities I listed really make sense for scaling though. But it's something I can look into.


Just about anything can be broken up into smaller units, even seemingly mundane things. As an example Large Size can be broken up to units:
1HD: +1 Damage, +1 Relevant STR Checks
3HD: Powerful Build
6HD: Large Size

With each bonus replacing (not adding to) the previous one. It's easily flavored/explained as rapid growth caused by the vigorous combat/exercise in adventuring. Not something that happens to humans, but could happen to some sort of fantasy creature with giant blood.

The above isn't meant as argument for or against spreading out the large size, simply an example of how to breaking up something normally seen as a single trait.

Similarly things like low-light vision or dark vision can increase as someone goes up in level.

A simple bonus to climb checks can turn into a climb speed at some point.

What else they get, and how it may/may not be broken up is fairly open-ended of course. However, finding a way to stagger something, if you want to go that route, will probably be fairly easy no matter what it is.



One other thing I forgot: According to the Monster Manual, Giants have low-light vision. Would the general consensus be to allow LLV without changing the EL?

I can't see it as being an issue. But... I seem to be firmly on the more generous side of the fence when it comes to what's balanced.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

OK, just so it actually looks like something from the MM, barring descriptions and such (feel free to suggest ideas):

BigDude, 1st-Level Warrior
Large Giant
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 feet (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +3 studded leather);
>> touch 9, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+7
Attack: Battleaxe +3 melee (2d6+2/x3) or spear +2 ranged (2d6/x3)
Full Attack: Battleaxe +3 melee (2d6+2/x3) or spear +2 ranged (2d6/x3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will -1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 7
Skills: Intimidate +2, Listen +1, Spot +1
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Temperate hills or plains
Organization: Solitary, gang (2-4), or band (3-12)
Challenge Rating: 1/2 (?)
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0 (?)

The BigDude warrior presented had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 9.

BigDudes as Characters:
BigDude characters possess the following racial traits:
-- +2 Strength, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
-- Large size
-- BigDude base land speed is 30 feet.
-- Low-light vision
-- +1 natural armor bonus
-- Automatic languages: Common, Giant. Bonus languages: Draconic, Dwarf, Gnoll, Orc.
-- Favoured class: Barbarian

Does that help somewhat? To be honest, I kinda picture it like an oversized Orc and (obviously) not as powerful as an Ogre.

[Cieyrin]

I think a better point of comparison would be to compare the BigDude to the poster children of the big bruising lifestyle, the goliath and half-ogre, from Races of Stone and Destiny, respectively.

The major features of the Goliath that make up their LA are favorable stat balance (+4 Str and +2 Con for -2 Dex) and Powerful Build (be treated as size Large when favorable and use larger weapons), also perhaps Mountain Movement (the standing jump counting as a running jump and faster climb at no penalty). That marks them at LA +1.

The major features of Half Ogre are, again, favorable stat balance (+6 Str and +2 Con for -2 to Dex, Int and Cha), actually being Large Size (=o!) and NA +4, all for the cost of LA +2.

Now, to compare them to the BigDude, he has balanced stat changes (+2 Str for -2 Wis and Cha) and Large Size, with the possible mention of NA +1, for LA +0. The closer of the two to compare to is the one w/ the same features, the Half-Ogre. The BigDude's stats and NA are clearly inferior to the Half-Ogre (as they should be), leaving only the size as a factor, which is not a big enough mitigator to put these guys on the same playing field.

Now, we compare the BigDude to the Goliath and the distinction between the 2 becomes less clear. About the only thing Powerful Build takes away from being the next size up is the size penalties and reach, the reach being a powerful feature that any bruiser should take advantage of (and if you don't, you're just shortchanging yourself your own racial features).

Looking at them in these terms, the BigDude and Goliath seem on a fairly even playing field, equating in my mind that the BigDude, without further mitigating features, should be LA +1. To pull it back from Goliath-level power, I'd say you'd have to implement one or two minuses to the race to drop the LA to +0. Possibly making them ungainly (-2 Dex) or something else, depending on the fluff you give it to flesh it out as a real race, rather than a mechanical exercise.

Them's are my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Looking at them in these terms, the BigDude and Goliath seem on a fairly even playing field, equating in my mind that the BigDude, without further mitigating features, should be LA +1. To pull it back from Goliath-level power, I'd say you'd have to implement one or two minuses to the race to drop the LA to +0. Possibly making them ungainly (-2 Dex) or something else, depending on the fluff you give it to flesh it out as a real race, rather than a mechanical exercise.

(Goliath from Races of Stone)

Is it your opinion, then, that a relatively-low flavour-based penalty would be enough to compensate? I get the impression that you feel it's LA +1 but wouldn't take much to make it EL 1. I may be misreading this though.

[Cieyrin]

I'm saying that, as teh BigDude currently is, he stands about at LA +1, putting him on par with the Goliath. To put him on the same level as, say, a half-orc at LA +0, he'll need a penalty of some sort to balance out him being size Large.

Whatever penalty he gets has to be significant enough to pull him back some. I had another thought for a viable penalty along w/ the clumsiness, in making him a knuckle dragger, slowing his speed down to 20'.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Yeah, I get that.. I'm just wondering how much penalty is actually required to make it EL 1. "How much is too much?", yanno? :) Like the giantkin - some of those 'balancing factors' just seem.. well.. let's just say they're too "home-made" for my liking.. unable to get Heavy Armor Proficiency through class abilities, for one o.O Speaking of which though.. that Initiative Penalty bit looks interesting. What about a racial penalty to a skill? (Other than what you get for being Large or stat adjustments, I mean.)

[paddyfool]

Now, we compare the BigDude to the Goliath and the distinction between the 2 becomes less clear. About the only thing Powerful Build takes away from being the next size up is the size penalties and reach, the reach being a powerful feature that any bruiser should take advantage of (and if you don't, you're just shortchanging yourself your own racial features).

Powerful Build is at least as good as actually being Large. There are cheap ways to get Reach, but Size Penalties will always cost the character. If I was taking a LA+1 character for pretty much any class in any niche, the Goliath's favourable stat balance and other bonuses would make it a shoe-in over the BigDude. If you were going to make the BigDude a +1, you'd have to give him a better stat balance than he has at present. Maybe make him a toned-down Half Ogre (+4 Str, -2 Wis & Chr, +2 NA). You could then have him as "Part-Ogre" to represent people who have ogrish heritage and take after that, but aren't all the way there. Or just call him a "Great Orc", if you want to go with the bigger orc theme.

If you want to keep it at +0, I'd say fine as is, but maybe drop the natural armor bonus. +1 is pretty meaningless - sometime around level 4-8, you should pick up a +1 or better NA item anyway, and the bonuses don't stack.

[Xapi]

I suggest changing the -2 from Wis to Dex.

Fluffwise, I believe a Big Dude would have a harder time doing Dex related stuff (acrobatics, sleight of hands, tumbling, you name it) than Wis related (listening, spotting things...)

Crunchwise:

Why is +2 St -2 W -2 Ch considered balanced? Because to gain the +2 in Str that any bruiser would want, giving up "just" -2 Wis OR -2 Cha is a small price to pay given that they will likely put those stats to little use.

However, making the bruiser pay in Dex, as well as one extra mental attribute (choose either Wis or Cha, I think Cha is better fluffwise), is a more important setback.

My thoughts (although I'm not the most experienced player) is that this race as in your last post is on the low side of LA +1, or the high side of EL1.

This change I propose may tip the scale towards EL1. He may still be on the high side of EL1, but defenitively not LA+1.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Powerful Build is at least as good as actually being Large. There are cheap ways to get Reach, but Size Penalties will always cost the character. If I was taking a LA+1 character for pretty much any class in any niche, the Goliath's favourable stat balance and other bonuses would make it a shoe-in over the BigDude. If you were going to make the BigDude a +1, you'd have to give him a better stat balance than he has at present. Maybe make him a toned-down Half Ogre (+4 Str, -2 Wis & Chr, +2 NA). You could then have him as "Part-Ogre" to represent people who have ogrish heritage and take after that, but aren't all the way there. Or just call him a "Great Orc", if you want to go with the bigger orc theme.

If you want to keep it at +0, I'd say fine as is, but maybe drop the natural armor bonus. +1 is pretty meaningless - sometime around level 4-8, you should pick up a +1 or better NA item anyway, and the bonuses don't stack.

Well, of course the stats for the Goliath are better; he's an LA+1 and I'm aiming for LA+0. If I was aiming for LA+1 I'd probably start glancing at the Half-Ogre from Savage Species statwise. For reference:



+6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Large Size
Speed 30 feet
Darkvision 60 feet
Natural armor +4
Giant Blood
Automatic Languages: Giant, Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Goblin, Orc, Abyssal.
Favoured Class: Barbarian.
LA: +1
EDIT: Checked with Races of Destiny, p98; it's the exact same stats but LA +2.

The natural armor bonus is only really there for two three reasons: to partly - but not fully - compensate for the AC loss from being Large (I don't want full compensation because it doesn't seem appropriate); to allow access to Improved Natural Armor; and I figured it deserved something I saw as a *small* bonus - not overpowering, but to me it made sense flavourwise too. Larger creatures generally have thicker skin, so it made sense to me. I mean, it can go; I'd rather deny it access to low-light vision myself. Maybe a dodge bonus instead of an NAC bonus?


I suggest changing the -2 from Wis to Dex.

Fluffwise, I believe a Big Dude would have a harder time doing Dex related stuff (acrobatics, sleight of hands, tumbling, you name it) than Wis related (listening, spotting things...)

Agreed. That makes sense. I'm curious - would you allow -2 to Dex, -2 Cha, and then +2 NAC? Armor class is only a part of what Dexterity allows; it's also a penalty on ranged combat, Reflex saves, and Initiative, amongst other things, all of which a combat-oriented character would actually care about.


Crunchwise:
[..snip..]
However, making the bruiser pay in Dex, as well as one extra mental attribute (choose either Wis or Cha, I think Cha is better fluffwise), is a more important setback.

Agreed. The reference in the DMG (3.5 p173) suggests that one of Dex or Con, or any two of Int/Wis/Cha are a fair balance for a bonus to Strength. That being said, an Orc gets +4 to Strength for a -2 to Int, Wis, *and* Cha.
I think at EL1, the stats themselves are supposed to balance out (given their definitions). What about a +2 to Str and Con, and a -2 to each of Dex Wis and Cha?


My thoughts (although I'm not the most experienced player) is that this race as in your last post is on the low side of LA +1, or the high side of EL1.

This change I propose may tip the scale towards EL1. He may still be on the high side of EL1, but defenitively not LA+1.

I just get the feeling that if I'm hitting Dex, it's relevant enough that I want to give him *some* kind of compensation elsewhere; I mean, look at this:

Positives:
+2 to Strength
Large size - larger weapons deal more damage, bonuses to some combat-based abilities, longer reach
Giant type means no Charm Person
+1 natural armor
Low-light vision

Negatives:
-2 to Wisdom, -2 to Charisma
Large size - penalty to armor class, attack rolls, mobility (see: 5' corridor), stealth, civilization-based issues (larger equipment is more expensive, larger creatures are harder to find shelter for, etc)
Giant type means no Enlarge Person

Compare this to what the PHB races get - I mean, an elf (high elf is the default type from the PHB) gets balanced stats (+Dex, -Con), immune to sleep, bonus vs enchantment, lowlight vision, six different weapon proficiencies, bonuses on three different skills, auto-Search on secret doors, and arguably the best Favoured Class in the PHB. His entire hit? A minus on Constitution, which is mostly for hit points, Fortitude saves, and Concentration checks. I think if I was to compare this to a High Elf, it really would depend on what kind of character I was going for; they seem about even to me, and I think the Elf ends up ahead.

[paddyfool]

I can see the hit to Dex working, and the NA bonus' value for fluff. So, +2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Chr, +1 NA? As a Str-boosted base class, this ends up in the same ball park as the best of the core options, the strangely-muscular Wood Elf (+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int). Of the player's handbook options, this version of the BigDude would make a good fighter, barbarian, or monk; a middling cleric, druid, or paladin; a poor rogue, ranger, or wizard; and a very poor sorceror or bard. With a wis penalty rather than a dex penalty, he becomes a very good fighter or barbarian, possibly too good for LA+0, so this is probably more balanced imho; it also cuts down on the potential abuse of AoO you get from your Reach very slightly. But then, all that abuse is just as easily achieved by any medium core race who has a friendly caster around to cast Enlarge Person, so why worry about it too much?

Incidentally, to fit the fluff of either a kind of tall & gangly Orc, or skinny part-Ogre, you should probably give this race Darkvision. Also, possibly Light Sensitivity to balance this out - something about a big, slightly clumsy race that doesn't like bright light makes this a little more interesting imho.

Playability-wise, your biggest advantage would be good battlefield control (with the reach, trip, and grapple bonuses), followed by damage. Your biggest disadvantage would be the low touch AC, followed by the to-hit penalty and the risk of getting mobbed. The inability to move down narrow corridors would be irrelevant most of the time, and immensely annoying upon occasion, especially since you wouldn't be able to cast Reduce Person on this race. On the whole, therefore, the BigDude might play better if he merely had Powerful Build, but I can clearly see how that would be less fun in some ways too.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

I was thinking +2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Cha, with a +2 to natural armor rather than +1. With average stats you still end up with a 10 AC before armor (10 -Dex -Large +NAC) but in the early going the biggest issue for your size will be getting equipment that fits you! Assuming average starting gold and a Barbarian: Greatsword is *all* your starting money, so you're probably looking at something like studded leather and longsword (remember, for large size, costs are doubled). You're AC 13 + a 2d6 weapon and spent 80 gold, leaving 20 for everything else, so effectively ~ 10 gp since most thing will be double the cost. A Medium Barbarian will be able to grab a Greatsword and studded leather, and have 25gp left over. He'll do the same damage you do, hit as often as you do, and has the same AC - and has more to spend. Pitting them against each other, that extra gold probably helps more than the extra reach; I'd probably be looking for longsword, heavy steel shield, and scale mail, giving me an extra three points of armor class for the BigDude to try and get through, and I have 15gp left for other equipment. I'm now doing a d8 instead of 2d6 but if we both have 12 hp, chances are I'll get my three hits in before the BigDude gets two in.

Incidentally, I really like the idea of him being a Great Orc, except that Orcs are listed as Humanoid, which is something I really want to dodge. Maybe Ogreblooded? Something in his ancestry is Ogre enough for some traits to show but not as much as a Half-Ogre.

So.. what about Str +2, Dex -2, Cha -2, NAC +2? Too much?

[Xapi]

Well, for starters, I think the gold is a non-issue.

You can't balance two races thinking about what they'll be like at level 1 with average starting gold.


I think at EL1, the stats themselves are supposed to balance out (given their definitions).

Not necesarily. Remember, you're making the BigDude large with a reach, and +2 Str.

You need to balance that out with something really hampering in terms of figthing.

Hence, the -2 to Dex.

I think if you give it +2 Con, that would unbalance things quite a lot.

You could, however, give him Toughness as a bonus Feat, and +1 NA.

So this would be:

+2 Str -2 Dex -2 Cha (Consider this a -small- setback compared to the human's balanced stats)

Large + Reach (Consider this a big bonus compared to the human's Medium + no reach)

Toughness (Consider this a small/medium penalty compared to the human's bonus feat)

+1 NA (consider this a small bonus compared to the human's lack of NA)

No skill bonus (Consider this a small setback compared to the human's bonus skills)

So, right now this race is, IMHO, a bit above the human. It may still be closer to LA+0 than LA+1, but not completely balanced. Perhaps removing the Toughness or the NA would make it completely leveled.

[Cieyrin]

A Great Orc, as you describe it, is how Orogs used to be, when they were Half-Orc, Half-Ogre, before their reappearance in 3rd as deep orcs. Playing on that, you play them as descendants of those, diluting the bloodline to create the new race. You could call them Ogrocs to differentiate them.

About the half-ogre stats, as the Races of Destiny version is the most recent copy, as well as being actual 3.5, as opposed to Savage Species being 3.0, the RoD version takes precedent as the correct stats for it.

For the Ogroc stats, i think it could run with +2 Con, though they'd need to take a hit in another stat. -2 Int would definitely be up there, as being bred between ogres and orcs doesn't exactly lend itself to great thinking. Even a -4 to Int would be fairly reasonable for them, I'd say, if we follow along those lines, bringing them to stats of +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha. The +2 NA would work fine for balancing it out a bit, as well.

I think they should also have darkvision 60', as both ogres and orcs have the ability and it would seem strange for a strange crossbreed to be missing it. Tack on light sensitivity from their orcish heritage and i think it's coming together fairly well.

The matter of weapon and armor costs is fairly moot in my opinion, like Xapi says. I see the ogroc running about w/ a large greatclub, costing a total of 10, count them, 10 gp, for 2d8 damage, leaving plenty of room for other equipment to be gained. It hearkens back to their ogre heritage to be beating people with dead trees, anyways, as opposed to nice sharp slabs of metal like humans, which they don't have a drop of blood of, anyways, remember.

I still don't think the size is properly balanced, however, pulling the goliath card here. I'd make them slouchy knuckledraggers with short legs, eliminating the reach, which is the point that makes it stand out from Powerful Build, and slowing them down to 20' movement. That would definitely put them where they should be, i think, for LA +0.

So, in summary, the Ogroc stats come out to:
- +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -4 Int, -2 Cha
- +2 NA
- Giant Type
- Large Size
- Reach 5'
- Movement 20'
- Darkvision 60'
- Lowlight Vision
- Light Sensitivity

That might be on the strong side of LA +0 still but still LA +0, I'd say. Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Person_Man]

In addition to the highly useful bonuses to Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, and Intimidate, plus potentially increased reach and space (which allows you to threaten more squares, even if your reach is only 5 ft), Large size also grants access to Knockback, Hulking Hurler, and War Hulk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a), all of which are ridiculously powerful in the right build. Also, you can use Expansion (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) with any race. So you'd have an easy time getting to Gargantuan by ECL 7ish (assuming Overchannel and/or Midnight Augmentation).

There's no race that grants Large size without at least +2 LA. That's the way it should be, IMO.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

-- I'm aware of the difference between the RoD and SS versions; SS was the only one I had handy at the moment. Checking when I got home, I found they were the same except for the LA.

-- I don't think a Con bonus is necessary, to be honest, and if that happens I'm thinking it would be balanced out along the lines of what an Orc gets (+4 Str would turn to +2 Str and Con, then -2 Int/Wis/Cha). -4 to Int seems a maaajor hit, and I really don't see "not bright" + "not bright" = "dull like hammer" ^_~

-- Darkvision makes sense; I'm just wondering if some kind of vision thing is necessary here. I didn't have it originally. Darkvision + light sensitivity I could see though. I don't think I'd give darkvision *and* low-light though.

-- Also, after some consideration, having NAC opens up a couple feats on its own. And I don't buy the argument of "But size opens up these feats" because racial choices opens up its own list of feats, PrC's and whatnot. Example: Catfolk -> Catfolk Pounce; Halfling -> Luckstealer. I think I could 'comfortably' leave it at +1.

So, maybe this:
Str +2, Dex -2, Cha -2
+1 NA
Giant type, Large size
Darkvision 60', light sensitivity

I'm not sure I agree with the shortened reach, but I could see an argument for the slower movement rate. Mind you, if I did that, it would be a very large temptation (large size, bonus to Str) to give it the "I don't slow down in heavier armors" that Dwarves get.

Better?

[Cieyrin]

I think the reason giants have low-light by default, as opposed to darkvision, is that the indoors don't typically serve them as well and it makes it easier to do the twilight raid, as it's rarely pitch black outside, like it would be deep in a cave or some such. Regardless, sticking w/ one vision type as opposed to ogres getting both is totally up to you. Guess the Bigdude didn't get those genes from mommy ogre.

I would argue that they should still have an Int penalty, since large size is still a big advantage and, given their heritage, even if they don't come out basically lobotimized, they still aren't coming out ahead. I mean, look at the poor half-orc. Normal human brains plus orc upbringing still leaves them trailing behind their human peers.

For the reduced speed issue, I wouldn't be giving out the dwarven claim to fame, keep on trudging despite carrying the solid gold idol that's bigger than you. Maybe something similar to it but not a cancellation. I could see maybe a reduction in armor or weight category, like having built in mithril reduction mechanisms. That kinda gets it into the territory of pushing it towards Goliath power, so i'd tread carefully with that. We're trying to meet the aim of making it an LA +0 Large race, not making it overly cool w/ features. Being Large is the main focus of the race, so that's what we should focus on.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

What about something along the lines of "Movement rate of 30 feet. A BigDude's movement rate in armor is treated as though the armor was one category lighter. For example, a BigDude in heavy armor is treated as though the armor was medium when it comes to movement rates and running speeds. All other penalties, such as armor check, are still for its normal type." Do you think that would be fair? Example, assuming 30' base movement rate:


Normal Character
Armor Check Move Runs
L:Studded -1 30 4x
M:Breastpl -4 20 4x
H:Banded -6 20 3x

BigDude
L:Studded -1 30 4x
M:Breastpl -4 30 4x
H:Banded -6 20 4x


I'd still rather keep him at 30'; I have trouble (though obviously it's not IMpossible) seeing a Large humanoid-shaped creature moving that slowly. How about this then..

Str +2, Dex -2, Int -2, Cha -2 (which seems a bit much to me, tbh, but I understand why)
+1 NAC
Giant type, Large size
Low-light vision *or* Darkvision 60', light sensitivity
30' movement, improved armor mobility

Better?

[Cieyrin]

I don't know, the whole armor reduction was so that he wasn't moving abysmally slow at 15'. Attaching that to a 30' movement is a little too pimp, I think. That's why the dwarf can get away w/ it.

Maybe we should try a different angle to limit back teh BigDude, since movement and reach limitations don't seem to be your cup of tea. Here's a thought, you could make him a cyclops, giving him one eye. He suffers from poor depth perception, netting a -2 to ranged attacks, and extra vulnerability to blinding, since you only got the one eye, which nets a -2 vs. blinding attacks.

Going this route has the added bonus of giving you unique fluff to draw on, rather than recreating ye olde orog, and i think pushes it into LA +0 territory.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Yanno what? I like it. I could see it being cause for a penalty to visual-based checks such as Spot, since you don't have the depth perception that you'd have with two eyes. When I can find the info on Cyclops to play with, we can hammer out some more details, but off the cuff I'd say -2 to Dex and -2 to all perception-based skills and attack rolls. Seems a fairly strong penalty offhand, as even wizards like to use ranged attacks (Disintegrate, anyone?). (Granted, there's not gonna be a lot of BigDude wizards or sorcerers around, but it's a rare character that doesn't worry about ranged penalties *at all*.)

[jeek]

Half-Ogre Big Dude Diff
+6 STR +2 STR -4 STR
-2 DEX -2 DEX SAME
-2 INT -2 INT SAME
-2 CHA -2 CHA SAME
+4 NA +1 NA -3 NA
Type: Giant Type: Giant Same
Darkvision Darkvision or Lowlight A choice
Speed: 30ft Speed: 30ft, even in med +10ft in medium armor
LA: +2 LA: +0 LA: -2

See fine Irrelevant Penalty to Yup.
Spot and ranged attacks


So, -4 strength, -3 natural armor, a speed *bonus*, vision options, and a mostly irrelevant penalty is worth dropping two levels of adjustment?

I doubt it. I told my roommate about this, and when he finally stopped laughing, he said it was the Barbarian's wet dream. This is strictly better than the Half-Minotaur template, which is widely considered to be overpowered, and even that has a +1 LA.

[Cieyrin]

Half-Ogre Big Dude Diff
+6 STR +2 STR -4 STR
-2 DEX -2 DEX SAME
-2 INT -2 INT SAME
-2 CHA -2 CHA SAME
+4 NA +1 NA -3 NA
Type: Giant Type: Giant Same
Darkvision Darkvision or Lowlight A choice
Speed: 30ft Speed: 30ft, even in med +10ft in medium armor
LA: +2 LA: +0 LA: -2

See fine Irrelevant Penalty to Yup.
Spot and ranged attacks


So, -4 strength, -3 natural armor, a speed *bonus*, vision options, and a mostly irrelevant penalty is worth dropping two levels of adjustment?

I doubt it. I told my roommate about this, and when he finally stopped laughing, he said it was the Barbarian's wet dream. This is strictly better than the Half-Minotaur template, which is widely considered to be overpowered, and even that has a +1 LA.

how are ranged and spot penalties irrelevant? you have a hard time hitting things you can't find and not every engagement is going to be toe to toe. As for your comments on the armor speed and vision, those are still up in the air. In the case of vision, it's an undecided issue, not a player's choice. In the case of movement, this was to be balanced against a reduced movement speed, which i assume is being dropped in favor of normal 30' move.

Finally, yes, being size large is a huge advantage but not necessarily one that is inherently worth LA +1. The half-ogre, as previously discussed in the thread, is clearly superior to the BigDude in many ways, hence why we dismissed it as irrelevant and are basing the decision on the more closely powered Goliath and seeing if we can get it significantly reduced in power to warrant the power threshold of LA +0.

The race is not finalized as it currently stands and should not be considered as such for power comparisons. It is very much still a work-in-progress that will need some playtesting once it gets into a more functional shape.

[Ouranos]

First off, first post, YAY!

Secondly, forgive me if I'm insane, but I swear i saw a feat once, forget which book, might have been a Mongoose publishing so dunno if it's considered legit, BUT...

I once saw a feat called, simply, "Massive". Description was something like;
This feta can only be taken at character creation. you are abnormally large for your race, increasing size category by 1 step.

You could only take it if you were mdeium or smaller, and it gave all benefits of an increased size. I used it once, was in a campaign that started us at lvl 3. Took a human, applied the feat, he was barb 1, fighter 2. Used a great maul, greataxe but bludgeoning damage. Damage was erratic. he was actually just a big fat target due to low AC. he tended to either hit like an average fighter or just TOTALLY decimate something. Crits killed nearly anything, but he was very easily swarmed. Was a very interesting character to play.

[paddyfool]

I doubt it. I told my roommate about this, and when he finally stopped laughing, he said it was the Barbarian's wet dream. This is strictly better than the Half-Minotaur template, which is widely considered to be overpowered, and even that has a +1 LA.

Nonsense - this is clearly not as good as the half-minotaur template.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

OK, first off: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablesort=1 lists Cyclops three times. The "Cyclops, Giant" (Forgotten Realms: Shining South, v3.5) and "Cyclops, Lesser" (Deities & Demigods, v3.0) seem to be identical, and "Cyclops, Greater" (again 3.0 DD) is an upgraded version. Neither of them seem to have any sort of sight-based penalty, so using that as a point of reference is out of the question. (Mind you, that's pretty understandable, since the Lesser Cyclops is an EL17 creature - 13 HD and a +4 level adjustment). Stat adjustments for the Cyclops in FR:SS are:

Str +16, Dex -2, Con +8, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -4
Large size, space/reach 10'
Speed 40
13 hit dice as Giant with commensurate BAB, saves, skills, and feats
Proficient in simple weapons
Low-light vision
+10 natural armor
Natural attack: Slam 1d4
Special attacks/qualities: Rock throwing and rock catching (see Monster Manual; range increment 120 feet)
Automatic languages: Giant; Bonus: Common, regional.
Favoured: Barbarian
LA: +4

I would expect that most of that LA actually comes from the huge strength modifier and the ability to catch and throw rocks (admittedly partly due to size), and the large natural armor bonus (imagine applying that to a creature with one hit die rather than 13).

That being said, given one eye rather than two, I think it would be appropriate to penalize Dexterity (due to lack of depth perception), Wisdom (mainly for Spot) and Intelligence (skills like Appraise). I also feel that Darkvision is more appropriate than Low-light vision. It seems to me Darkvision is just a matter of being able to see as if the lights were on, but LLV requires more.. well.. perceptiveness. Light sensitivity might or might not make sense here. I don't see him being clumsy so much as less perceptive.

So how about:

Str +2, Dex -2, Int -2, Wis -2
+1 NAC
Giant type, Large size
Darkvision 30'
30' movement

Although I could see 20 feet for movement, if it seems necessary - perhaps they've grown to walk more cautiously due to learning what happens when they go too fast?

Alternatively, what if there was just a single stat that was adjusted, at a -2, rather than fiddling with four? Say, no Strength bonus, and maybe a -2 to Wisdom instead? So that first line would simply read:

-2 Wis
rather than
Str +2, Dex -2, Int -2, Wis -2

Just a thought.

[Cieyrin]

So, your Cyclops stats come out to:

-2 Wis
+1 NAC
Large Size
Giant Type
Darkvision (possibly with Light Sensitivity)
Move 30'

Well, having no Strength buff certainly does change the playing field a bit. I think putting back in Light Sensitivity and Move 20' should level it to LA +0. The benefits of large size (reach and bigger weapons) with the drawbacks (size penalties, larger space) along w/ being slower due to not being able to tell where exactly that dip in teh ground really is and light sensitivity feels balanced to me. It'd need to be playtested, of course, but I think with those stats, it's ready to be compared to half-orcs and dwarves and humans on an equal level playing field.

Finalizing the cyclops stats to:
-2 Wis
+1 NA
Large Giant
Darkvision
Light Sensitivity
Move 20'

When it's playtested, you may want to come back and add some fluff bonuses, like skill bonuses and whatnot.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

If it ends up 'weak enough' to allow skill bonuses.. do you think we can remove either the speed penalty or the light sensitivity? I'd rather the speed first myself - Large with a movement rate of 20 seems wrong somehow. However, I had this interesting idea (numbers may need some juggling):

Speed: 20 feet or 30 feet*

* A BigDude character's base movement rate is 20 feet. The character may increase this to a speed of 30 feet, but doing so applies a -5 penalty to all perception-based skills such as Spot and Spellcraft, as well as a -2 to all attack rolls and damage dice (to a minimum of 1 damage per die rolled for damage). If the character is willing to accept this penalty, all additional movement, such as running, charging, or increased movement due to class, is based on 30 feet rather than 20.

Think something like this would be feasible?

[Cieyrin]

Personally, I've never found giving a race skill bonuses as necessarily an unbalancing feature. Goliaths having a bonus to Sense Motive doesn't really make them more powerful, it fills in fluff for them for being able to discern truth from falsehood, which is a cultural thing for them. There are also genetic skills bonuses, such as elves bonuses to Spot, Search and Listen; they're great to have but it doesn't necessarily make them all that much better than others of different races. It just helps define them as being different than the other races and not just as lithe humans with pointy ears.

Now, for the speed boost bit, that seems more like something you'd need practice at, not something you would automatically know. I'd make that a racial feat, as i see a lot of these guys going barbarian, anyways, and getting fast movement that way, anyways. You could call it Cyclops Hustle or some such.

Cyclops Hustle
You've learned how to get over your racial caution and make fuller strides.
Prerequisites: Cyclops, Balance 4 ranks
Benefit: You may choose to hustle, moving +10' faster, though you suffer -2 penalty on all attacks and damage, as well as a -2 penalty on Spot checks, as you bounce off of things and miss unevenings of the ground as you focus on covering ground.
Normal: Cyclops move at 20'.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Yeah.. well, my idea was the matter of the 20 speed being something you learned, rather than natural, and 30 was your 'true' natural speed, but you learned how to move slower because if you moved at your regular speed you missed out on too much - so you learned how to make 'optimal' use out of 20 instead.

So, in other words:

- True natural land speed: 30 feet.
--- Effects: Penalties on vision-based checks, including attack rolls, and damage (you're moving too fast, so not swinging properly, etc)

- "Learned" land speed: 20 feet.
--- Effects: As 'regular' base land speeds (ie, no special penalties: cf Human at 30 feet, Catfolk at 40 feet, Halfling at 20 feet)

I could see doing it as a feat as well, although if it's a feat I'd expect lower penalties than as a racial feature.

[Cieyrin]

-1 to hit and damage and -3 spot, perhaps, then? I see most people would Hustle to extend their Charge range, so getting some kinda bonus to hit is better than none at all.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

OK, let's throw this out there and see what happens:

Cyclopskin Racial Traits:

+2 to Constitution, -2 to Wisdom. Cyclopskin are hardier but not as perceptive as other races.
Large size. As a Large creature, a Cyclopskin has a -1 penalty on armor class and attack rolls, but can use larger equipment and carry more than Medium creatures.
Giant type. Not affected by spells or spell-like abilities that affect humanoids unless they also affect Giants.
Darkvision 30'.
Light Sensitivity: Cyclopskin are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
Base movement speed is 20 feet.
Automatic languages: Common, Giant. Bonus languages: Draconic, Dwarf, Gnoll, Orc.
Favoured class: Barbarian


RACIAL FEATS

CYCLOPSKIN HUSTLE [GENERAL, FIGHTER]
You have learned to overcome your racial overcautiousness.
Prerequisites: Cyclopskin, Balance 5 ranks.
Benefits: You may increase your base movement speed by 10 feet. You may declare the increased movement whenever you would move as a free action, including on someone else's turn. Doing so invokes a -2 racial penalty on all Spot checks, attack rolls, and reduces your effective caster level by 1 if you try to cast any spells for the duration of the increased movement.
Normal: A Cyclopskin normally moves at 20 feet per round.

CYCLOPSKIN MOBILITY [GENERAL, FIGHTER]
You are used to moving faster than usual.
Prerequisites: Cyclopskin, Balance 5 ranks, Cyclopskin Hustle.
Benefits: You no longer take the racial penalty on Spot checks, attack rolls, or caster level for faster movement. Also, if you reduce your speed to the minimum for your class (30 feet for a Cyclopskin Barbarian, or 50 feet for a 9th-level Cyclopskin Monk, for example), you get a +1 dodge bonus to your armor class.
Normal: A Cyclopskin has a base movement rate of 20 feet. A Cyclopskin with Cyclopskin Hustle but without Cyclopskin Mobility has a -2 racial penalty on Spot checks, attack rolls, and -1 on effective caster level.

SCHOOLED IN HARD KNOCKS [GENERAL, FIGHTER (needs a better name!)
You've learned how to make your own natural skin more resistant to blows.
Prerequisites: Cyclopskin, Base attack bonus +3, Constitution 15.
Benefits: You gain a +1 natural armor bonus.
Special: This feat can only be taken once.

Better?

[Cieyrin]

I'd increase Cyclopskin Mobility's Balance requirement to 8 ranks, to show you've improved beyond learning how to do move at your full stride, that you've mastered it.

Upon thinking about it, it may be better to lower the Balance requirement, considering it's a cross-class skill for both Fighters and Barbarians, probably the most common classes for this race. At current, they couldn't get Hustle till they hit 7th and Mobility till 13th, which makes them far less worth it by that point. As such, reducing the requirement for Hustle to 3 ranks, which makes it achievable at 3rd, and Mobility to 5 ranks, putting it in range for an 8th level Fighter bonus feat or a 9th level feat choice.

The CL reduction seems a bit odd to me, as does how they get the dodge bonus for reducing to normal Mach-Cyclops speed. I'd probably increase the dodge bonus to +2, to make it more worthwhile, as well give them a +2 stability bonus vs. trips and bull rushes, like the dwarven racial ability. They've been working on taking advantage of their full stride and maintaining balance while doing so, so why shouldn't they be more aware of their body position, right?

[Lappy9000]

The issues of being a Large race seem to stem from two issues:
Some obscure bonus or feat/ability/spell could totally and completely break the character.
Taking out enough to balance for such munchkinery makes the race bland, boring, and underpowered for non-optimizers.
So it seems to me that the rules don't easily allow for a Large-sized race with a +0 Level Adjustment. Maybe a soultion would instead be to change the rules of what being Large sized means. Giantkin did this with Powerful Build and Warforged did something similiar with the Living Construct subtype that makes playing a construct a very real possibility.

Perhaps make the cyclopskin tall and powerful (compared to smaller creatures), but rather lanky. With this, you could even get into some cool fluff that they like to bully the smaller races, but do so out of inferority to the other giants (who are far stronger). This could also explain how a cyclopskin could be living in a human city.

Cyclopskin Racial Traits:
Large Size: As a Large creature, a cyclopskin takes a -1 penalty to Armor Class, a -1 penalty on Attack Rolls, and a -4 penalty on Hide checks, but he uses larger weapons than humans use, and his lifting and his carrying capacity is twice that of a Medium character.

A cyclopskin takes up 10 ft. of space, but still has a reach of 5 ft. Also, a cyclopskin 's Large size is considered when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. As a Large creature, a cyclopskin also gains a +4 bonus on Intimidate to creatures of smaller size.
Lean Build: Despite being Large, the physical stature of cyclopskin makes them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a cyclopskin is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the cyclopskin is treated as one size smaller.

This should give you a pretty balanced template to add racial traits too (hopefully). Correct me if I got anything terribly wrong here.

It may also be prudent to add this little clause into the Lean Build trait:
"The benefits of this racial trait do not stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category."

[Cieyrin]

So Lean Build is rather akin to the Kobold variant ability Slight Build, except there isn't a choice about which bonuses go w/ it; that isn't a half bad, in actuality. So it comes out to they got the size, the penalties that go w/ it and the ability to wield bigger weapons but not the reach or size bonuses (other than Intimidate). Idk whether I'd eliminate reach, though, since large bipeds usually have reach. This isn't Powerful Build and being Lean by no means means you're not still lanky enough to grab the drunk across the room and piledrive him into the floor, though you don't have the mass to go w/ it to warrant the size bonus to grapple checks. The removal of just the size modifiers to special combat options should probably be enough, I'd say.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Lappy9000]

So Lean Build is rather akin to the Kobold variant ability Slight Build, except there isn't a choice about which bonuses go w/ it; that isn't a half bad, in actuality. So it comes out to they got the size, the penalties that go w/ it and the ability to wield bigger weapons but not the reach or size bonuses (other than Intimidate). Idk whether I'd eliminate reach, though, since large bipeds usually have reach. This isn't Powerful Build and being Lean by no means means you're not still lanky enough to grab the drunk across the room and piledrive him into the floor, though you don't have the mass to go w/ it to warrant the size bonus to grapple checks. The removal of just the size modifiers to special combat options should probably be enough, I'd say.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.Thanks :smallsmile:

Reach may not or may not be a problem; I know much of the Large-Cheese comes from Grapple checks. Of course, I realize that Lean Build and the modified Large Size actually make cyclopskin a little weaker.

Feel free to tweak my proposal as needed.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If this is thread necromancy (I forget the definition), then RAISE THREAD!

Now, to go on.

In Savage Species (admitedly 3.0), it clearly says Large size is worth +1 level adjustment or so.

[Lappy9000]

In Savage Species (admitedly 3.0), it clearly says Large size is worth +1 level adjustment or so.Well, Savage Species isn't exactly known for supreme balance :smallbiggrin:

However, that probably is right, hence the point of the thread. We're attempting to make a Large-Sized race with a LA +0 without making it wholly unplayable.

It's hard.

Edit: Oh, and thread necromancy is typically 3+ months, although the mods show some leniency in the homebrew forum, assuming helpful critique is being given.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Well I'm thankful in that case for the pseudo-necromancy that GreatWyrmGold bestowed on my thread because it gave me time to come up with an idea and not necro it myself ;)

It's not always the case that creatures are involved in roles which appear 'obvious' to others looking at them; Monks, for example, quite often appear to be nothing more than simple peasants, but woe to anyone who tests that theory. So I came up with an idea: why does an EL1 Large creature actually *need* to be a combat machine? Sure, it's nice and all, but is it really necessary? So, how about starting it off as an anti-Orc, of sorts?

-4 to Strength, +2 to Int, Wis, and Cha

Also, was trying to figure out how to get types Human and Giant to merge; maybe Monstrous Humanoid (human giant)? Maybe with an 'ability' such as:

{Creature name} is treated as a humanoid and as a giant. However, when casting a spell, using a spell-like ability, or such, use whichever type is generally least useful. For example, a {Creature name} can be targetted with Charm Person but not with Enlarge Person.

I dunno, might be more balanced doing something like that.. thoughts?

By the way GWG - it specifically says that Large in and of itself *isn't* worth +1; it's the *reach* that does it. Savage Species, page 11-12:


Size: A Large creature gets no level adjustment for size. Its level adjustment is based on its reach instead.


Reach: Beyond 5 feet, every additional 5 feet of reach is worth an additional +1 level adjustment. A monster with a 10-foot reach gets a +1 level adjustment, and a monster with a 15-foot reach gets a +2 level adjustment.

Close, but not quite ;)

[Cieyrin]

I question the wisdom of applying 3 different types to one creature, really. It should probably not be humanoid, to avoid Enlarge cheese, but giving it multiple types like that not only doesn't really make sense, it makes it vulnerable to several type specific effects.

Plus, I'm of the impression that the Human subtype can only be applied to Humanoids, though I don't have my Races of Destiny available to check the type of the half-ogre or whether aasimar, tieflings and other planetouched are eligible to have the type, which could be the case. Whatever the case, you can only apply subtypes to creatures, not main types like Giant. If anything, provided the half-ogre is a Giant(Human) creature, that would be the way of doing it.

[Zaydos]

Half-ogres in Races of Destiny have the giant type without any subtype. And on Pg 150 it has a variant rule that suggests expanding the human subtype to half-elves and half-orcs and goes on to talk about expending it to planetouched and templated half-humans and changes them to Humanoids with the traits of their original creature type, which seems to preclude adding the human subtype to non-humanoids. Then again I do it anyway.
As for how the race is built I like the idea of a large Lv 1 race, and wouldn't for a second say reach is a small advantage but would especially like to see one with reach. A part of me dislikes the non-melee nature of the latest suggestion, but honestly something along those lines is probably the best and besides the part of me that likes flavor loves the idea of a sophisticated giant race.
I have to wonder if Mind_Stab Thrull's suggestion included keeping Lean Build because if it does they're actually worse at grappling and such than a human which seems odd for any large creature. Other than that it seems promising and I'd like to see the final version whether it ends up with a Strength penalty and non-melee or as a melee combatant and might like to run either or both in my own game sometime, with permission of course.
Actually I realized that with the -4 Str you could half the effects of Lean Build giving it a +2 size bonus on the opposed checks and it would still be no better than a human at grappling and so forth. The penalty to damage and melee attack rolls makes them an unlikely melee character anyway.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Zaydos: Actually, I wasn't looking at Lean Build; as it's been a couple months since the previous batch of responses to this thread and a few months since my previous response had been, it completely slipped my mind at the time. That being said, you only really get a +2 to grapple net result there, and an extended reach. (Yeah, there's other bonuses too, but most of the time I find the biggest ones are equipment-based and grapple.)

For what it's worth, even though I keep seeing people saying "don't use equipment cost as a balancing factor", the fact to the matter is in the first couple levels it's actually relevant. I'm thinking about having a non-aggressive class as favoured class too - with the bonus to all mentals, and the fact that I picture them as more social animals, perhaps Bard might not be a bad call.

As for the bit about the different creature types that Cieyrin brought up - I'm just trying to find a good mesh between 'human' and 'giant'. Maybe a simple

Enchantment and Charm Susceptibility (Ex): {Creature type} are treated as humans for the purpose of enchantment and charm spells, including charm person.

Would that be a better 'fix', and then leave them as Giants?

[Cieyrin]

I'm just not sure why they should necessarily be human related at all, really. Human makes them sound like they're half-giants or something. I'm just not seeing why trying to tack on the Human distinction is necessarily desirable, as it would still not make them vulnerable to Charm Person and the like, as Charm Person targets humanoids, not creatures of the Human subtype.

As for a non-physical largish race, I think I should bring up the Irda, or High Ogres, of the Dragonlance setting, who're the first race blessed with sentience on Krynn. They're mentally gifted from their constant struggle to maintain their enlightened status over the evil tendencies of their ogre blood and pity their fallen brethren, the common Ogres, though they isolate themselves and their health suffers accordingly. All in all, their stats are +2 Int and Cha for a -2 Con.

You could draw inspiration from them but they're also delineated as a powerful race, as they have inherent spell-likes and shape changing abilities as well, so just know there's precedence for having a non-meleeish larger race.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Zaydos]

I haven't gotten to try this out yet, except comparing it to a human in a really basic 1 vs 1 against orcs or goblins, but:
• -2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Cha
• Large size (10-ft reach)
• Spd 30-ft
• Giant
• +1 racial bonus on all Will saves.
• Lean Build: You only gain half of all special size modifiers for opposed checks; you wield weapons as a creature one size smaller than you.
• +2 on Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (History) checks.
I used a modified version of lean build so that they'd still be better at the various checks than humans, but not by much, and made sure not to let them use large weapons. It seemed to balance pretty well against a human fighter in that it dealt less damage (-1 damage and no capable of Exotic Weapon Prof for Bastard Sword or else -2 damage with 2-weapon sword build if using the standard elite array) and hit significantly less (-2 to hit which meant they needed a 12 to hit an orc warrior instead of a 10) so that it wasn't likely to use reach to dominate the game at low levels at least. Like I said I haven't tried it out except running a few arena style battles with it vs orc or goblin and the same thing with a human fighter (this actually led to the orc winning the first 2 times because of winning initiative and charging with a hit dealing over 13 hp). Unfortunately they don't really feel like a large race how I have them right now, but more like a medium creature with reach.
The double good mental ability was so that they could be wizards or sorcerers, and especially so that they could be Truenamers from ToM, balance-wise they probably should have just +2 to Int or Cha. The skill bonus and Will bonus were just flavor for how I saw them, actually similar to the Irda of Dragonlance (I've only read about them in the novels so I didn't know their 3.5 stats), with them being philosopher-mages.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

For reference, since they're coming up..

Dragonlance Campaign Setting (3.5), p39
Irda Racial Traits (in brief)
+2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Con
Medium, Humanoid (shapeshifter)
Speed 30 feet
Low-light vision
Change Shape [Su] 3/day - any Small to Large humanoid; no size change to equipment/clothing; gain natural attacks, NAC, move, [Ex] special attack (but not qualities), retains own special attacks/qualities except breath/gaze; retains spellcasting if the form can support it; +10 to Disguise if used as such; can remain in own form indefinitely; return to own shape does not use one of the daily uses; revert to own form on death.
Spell-Like Abilities - dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand 1/day, save DC 10+Cha
Languages: Auto - Common, High Ogre; Bonus - Dwarven, Elven, Kothian, Sylvan
Favored Wizard
Level Adjustment +2

According to the description a page earlier, physicaly they're basically like tall humans (averaging 6' tall) with a grace envied by elves.

By the way Cieyrin, the only real reason I have to make them human-blooded, as it were, is to give them susceptibility to Charm Person. I mean, I really don't want a melee beatstick that needs a 7th- or 8th-level caster to be able to keep him under control; even elves only have a racial bonus against them (as opposed to a nigh-immunity like in 1e/2e). By the same token, though, I don't want them to be targetable by Enlarge Person - having a Huge character in your party at L1, even if only wielding a quarterstaff and only if for a short time, is a rather frightening proposition. Thus why I suggested the Enchantment/Charm Susceptibilty instead of giving it a wonky creature type.

[Cieyrin]

[QUOTE=Mindstab_Thrull;6819829
By the way Cieyrin, the only real reason I have to make them human-blooded, as it were, is to give them susceptibility to Charm Person. I mean, I really don't want a melee beatstick that needs a 7th- or 8th-level caster to be able to keep him under control; even elves only have a racial bonus against them (as opposed to a nigh-immunity like in 1e/2e). By the same token, though, I don't want them to be targetable by Enlarge Person - having a Huge character in your party at L1, even if only wielding a quarterstaff and only if for a short time, is a rather frightening proposition. Thus why I suggested the Enchantment/Charm Susceptibilty instead of giving it a wonky creature type.[/QUOTE]

Again, the Susceptibility doesn't do what you want it to do, namely make them vulnerable. Having them considered of the Human subtype won't make them vulnerable to Charm Person and whatnot. They need to be treated as the Humanoid type for such to occur. Otherwise, if Charm Person only worked on those of the Human subtype, the spell becomes that much less effective, as the Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, etc. are unaffected. That also kinda makes being Human more desirable, for then Enlarge Person would only affect Humans, too.... Intriguing but nonetheless that's not how the spells with 'Person' target.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Again, the Susceptibility doesn't do what you want it to do, namely make them vulnerable. Having them considered of the Human subtype won't make them vulnerable to Charm Person and whatnot. They need to be treated as the Humanoid type for such to occur. Otherwise, if Charm Person only worked on those of the Human subtype, the spell becomes that much less effective, as the Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, etc. are unaffected. That also kinda makes being Human more desirable, for then Enlarge Person would only affect Humans, too.... Intriguing but nonetheless that's not how the spells with 'Person' target.

OK, humanoid then ;) I think that's what I actually meant to write but anyways..

Enchantment and Charm Susceptibility (Ex): {Creature type} are treated as humanoids for the purpose of enchantment and charm spells, including charm person.

At any rate.. I'm beginning to lose track of where I am on getting this pinned down! lol

Str -4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2
Large Giant, 10' reach
Darkvision 30'
Speed 20 feet
Enchantment and Charm Susceptibility
Languages - Auto: Common, Giant; Bonus - Draconic, Dwarf, Gnoll, Orc.
Favoured class: Bard (?)

And yeah, I kinda see this race somewhere around Mercane and Irda.. a race that's good at dealing with people in general, although in the more social aspects. Hmm.. since a 15 Str will only get you an 11 and an 18 will only get you a 14, is Speed 30 fair at that point? A -4 to Strength is a pretty big penalty. Sure, you wield larger weapons but going back to the table on post #16 (page 1), I'd say you average an extra 2 damage at a -3 to hit (-2 from the Strength penalty and -1 from the size increase).

Thoughts?

[Mindstab_Thrull]

OK, so I made up this table to see how much damage on average a creature would deal, comparing its attack bonus to the target's armor class and taking into account the threat range of the weapon and its critical multiplier. The formula simplified as follows:


(AB-AC+21) x [Threat+(21*Mult)-(Threat*Mult)-1]
-----------------------------------------------
400


Where:
AB is the creature's attack bonus
AC is the target's armor class
Threat is the minimum number required to threaten a critical hit
Mult is the damage multiplier on a critical hit

The result is how many damage dice you'll roll on an average attack roll (or multiples of damage dice, say 2d4 for a Falchion or 5d6 for a Rog9's sneak attack). In other words, this number multiplied by the average damage for the attack gives you an indicator of how much damage the average attack roll will deal.

Example: You have a total attack bonus of +8 and are wielding a longsword - threatens a critical on a 19+ and deals double damage. Your target has an AC of 17. You will roll 0.66 damage dice on the average attack. Assuming a +3 damage modifier at that point isn't unreasonable, a successful hit deals 1d8+3 damage, which averages to 7.5 damage. Multiply 7.5 by 0.66 gets you 4.95 damage, meaning that on average, you'll deal 4.95 damage each time you attack. (Yes, this takes into account missing as well; no, this doesn't take into account needing an attack roll higher than your minimum threat number to hit.)

So I ran some basic number with a BigDude Warrior (yeah, I've gone back to calling him that till I get a better name!) vs an Orc Warrior (see the Monster Manual), putting the (non-elite) stats in the same places and assuming the same weapons for both. I did 'cheat' a little and give the BigDude Weapon Focus in the weapon rather than the Orc's Alertness, and gave him a Chain Shirt and a shield rather than the Orc's Studded Leather. However, I assumed Stat adjustments for the Bigdude as follows:

-2 Str, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha

Comparison time!

The Orc starts off with Studded Leather and stats in the order of 13 11 12 10 9 8, which adjusted for race net Str 17 Dex 11 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 7 Cha 6. An Orc thus has an AC of 13. Warrior is full BAB, plus the +3 for Strength nets an attack bonus of +4.

The BigDude starts off with Chain Shirt and stats in the same order, which adjusted for race net Str 11 Dex 11 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 11 Cha 10. A BigDude has an AC then of 10 + chain shirt + shield - size = 10+4+1-1=14. Warrior is full BAB, no strength modifer, -1 for large size, +1 for Weapon Focus = +1 - with no bonus to weapon damage apart from a larger size weapon.

FIGHT!!
Falchions for each: Threat 18-20, multiplier x2
Orc: AC 13, attack bonus +4, damage 2d4+4 base (average 9).
BigDude: AC 14, attack bonus +1, damage 2d6 base (average 7).

The Orc on average will deal 0.6325 x 9 damage per attack, or 5.6925 damage per attack.
The BigDude on average will deal 0.5175 x 7 damage per attack, or 3.6225 damage per attack.

The Orc deals an average of 2 more damage per attack, thanks in part to its +4 Strength adjustment compared to the BigDude's -2 Strength, even with the BigDude's improved AC over the Orc.

FIGHT!!
Longswords for each: Threat 19-20, multiplier x2
Orc: AC 13, attack bonus +4, damage 1d8+3 (average 7.5)
BigDude: AC 14, attack bonus +1, damage 2d6 (average 7)

The Orc on average will deal 0.6050 x 7.5 damage per attack, or 4.5375 damage per attack.
The BigDude on average will deal 0.4950 x 7 damage per attack, or 3.465 damager per attack.

Again, the Orc on average deals a little more than an extra point of damage than the BigDude each attack even with the improved AC. The Orc is still ahead here.

One more? Suuuuuuure..
FIGHT!!
Greatswords for each: Threat 19-20, mulitplier x2
Orc: AC 13, attack bonus +4, damage 2d6+4 (average 11)
BigDude: AC 14, attack bonus +1, damage 3d6 (average 10.5)

The AC, attack bonuses, threat ranges, and multipliers are the same as for a longsword; only the damage changes here.

The Orc on average will deal 0.6050 x 11 damage per attack, or 6.6550 damage per attack.
The BigDude on average will deal 0.4950 x 10.5 damage per attack, or 5.1975 damager per attack.

Again, about a point and a half damage difference here. What does this show us? That even with an AC one point higher than what the Orc has, on average the Orc will deal more damage than the BigDude with a -2 Strength penalty - an extra 1-2 points per hit thanks to superior strength. And yes, I just noticed I accounted for the shield for the BigDude's AC even when fighting with a two-handed weapon; fine, call it chainmail rather than chain shirt and ignore the existance of a shield. I think for damage output, this is probably comparable to a Half-Orc. The only thing to balance is a 10' reach - assuming equal AC for both, is damage reduced by 3 points each enough to compensate? I doubt it, but it's a starting point.

Oh.. and I think I'm going to bite the bullet and just call it a Large Humanoid. All that mental squabbling going on in my brain was just a matter of finding a good 'home' for the race; Large implies Monstrous Humanoid or Giant to me rather than Humanoid, but Humanoid does everything I need it do without any fooling around. I just have to figure out how to get it unable to be affected by Enlarge Person now. Maybe make it immune to transmutation effects, similar to how Elves are immune to sleep?

[deuxhero]

Not really that good an idea. There are about 5 sleep effects in existence, most being low level. There are a large number of transmutations that can effect a creature.

How about a large size race that scales with Hit Die (let's call it Wood Giant for now). Wood Giants could be noted as growing very quickly (and Paul Bunyan did). At first Wood Giants start as being large for various opposed rolls (A Paladin substitution level and FR feat exist for it), then gain Powerful Build and eventually (by the time someone can afford a belt of permanent enlarge person or a permanency+enlarge person.) an option for actual large size or being treated as 2 sizes categories larger for opposed roles.