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Kris Strife
2009-03-04, 12:06 PM
I'm trying to make a character for a gestalt game on here. Now my favorite classes tend to be MAD (Paladins, Warmages, etc). Now normally this wouldnt be too big a problem, any more than MAD classes usually are, but this is a 32 point buy game. Its not only my first time playing gestalt, but my first point buy game and I've realized how much more frustrating MAD chars are in point buy.

I want one side Paladin, but cant decide on a good other class/stat layout. Any suggestions/comments/questions?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-04, 12:09 PM
I would recomend Paladin//Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion. Just my 2 copper pieces.

FinalJustice
2009-03-04, 01:58 PM
I would recommend Pal 2/Crusader 18//Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion/IoSFV, if you can work pre-reqs out. Among good fort and will saves, cha to all saves, mettle and IoSFV goodness, you become a defensive monster. Add spells like Thunderlance (replaces str with char, 20ft reach!), Wraithstrike (and Full PA) and Devoted Spirit +xd8 goodness and you have a pretty nice offense as well.

Kris Strife
2009-03-04, 02:28 PM
This is my fault for not mentioning it sooner, but the campaign is level 2, completes and core only.

The main point was supposed to be MAD classes and the point buy system, with character creation on the side... And I notice no one has given a stat lay out.

Person_Man
2009-03-04, 02:39 PM
You can get around MAD with X to Y (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) feats, items, etc. Or you can just avoid it altogether by picking classes that have the same primary ability score.

Elan Monk 2//Psychic Warrior 2 would be pretty spiffy, and would basically be a Dex/Wis or Str/Wis build.

Zincorium
2009-03-04, 02:57 PM
This is my fault for not mentioning it sooner, but the campaign is level 2, completes and core only.

The main point was supposed to be MAD classes and the point buy system, with character creation on the side... And I notice no one has given a stat lay out.

No one has given a stat layout, and that's good, because prior to your last post no one could have known what you actually needed. Don't put the cart before the horse without a darn good reason.

My personal suggestion:

Paladin//cleric is almost certainly the easiest. No score you'd want for one class is unused for the other, and you can limit expenditure on several. I'd go:

STR 14 (6 points)
DEX 10 (2 points)
CON 10 ((2 points)
INT 10 (2 points)
WIS 16 (10 points)
CHA 16 (10 points)

I wouldn't, personally, prioritize strength because of how little non-augmented melee combat should feature in play. Wisdom and charisma at decent levels will allow use of abilities that key off of turn undead, high saving throws, and eventually two spell lists that complement each other fairly well.


But what do you want the character to play like? We can throw out a bajillion suggestions but the more specific you are, the more relevant and less frustrating they'll be.

Kris Strife
2009-03-04, 03:19 PM
I do prefer frontline melee, usually with a bastard sword to let me switch between one and two handed for sheild, spell, McGuffin carrying, etc. Even my warmage (one of my first ideas for my other class) was a meleer first and caster second. Not to much into mounted combat, and I do like draconic themed PCs. (DFA was another idea I had)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-03-04, 03:35 PM
Okay, frontline melee monster, comming up!

Barbarian/Dragon Disciple//Sorcerer

You get:

D12 HD, good saves, getting frustrated with your opponents and smashing heads in, half-dragon template, and full spellcasting, from which you can pick up a lot of self-buff type spells to make you more effective in combat. Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, and True Strike are good examples.

Stats:

Str 16
Dex 14 (this will need to be bumped up with an item when you can afford)
Con 10
Wis 10
int 10
Cha 16 (this is where all your discretionary points go, and need to be further bumped up with an item when you can afford)

Another_Poet
2009-03-04, 03:48 PM
I would say you don't have as big a problem as you think. I'm playing a MAD character right now (Duskblade: Int, Str, Con) with a 28 point buy and having a great time.

The thing to remember is that, no matter how high or low the point buy, the other people are on the same point buy as yourself. If you were okay with other people putting all their money/items into one stat, while you had to manage several stats, in a high-power campaign where you all rolled 5d6 for stats or something, then you can breathe easy - the power gulf is going to be the same in a low point-buy game.

As far as stats I would make a paladin/sorcerer (you said you liked warlocks and sorcerer is close in flavour enough while keeping you on the Cha train). Put a 16 into Cha and a 12 into Wis then max your str and con scores. Drop your dex if you don't mind being a full-plate type and you can get some extra points to boost Cha even further, or spend as needed.

ap

sentaku
2009-03-04, 08:27 PM
I would say you don't have as big a problem as you think. I'm playing a MAD character right now (Duskblade: Int, Str, Con) with a 28 point buy and having a great time.

The thing to remember is that, no matter how high or low the point buy, the other people are on the same point buy as yourself. If you were okay with other people putting all their money/items into one stat, while you had to manage several stats, in a high-power campaign where you all rolled 5d6 for stats or something, then you can breathe easy - the power gulf is going to be the same in a low point-buy game.

As far as stats I would make a paladin/sorcerer (you said you liked warlocks and sorcerer is close in flavour enough while keeping you on the Cha train). Put a 16 into Cha and a 12 into Wis then max your str and con scores. Drop your dex if you don't mind being a full-plate type and you can get some extra points to boost Cha even further, or spend as needed.

ap

Being a paladin doesn't negate the problems of arcane spell failure on the sorcerer side, if I recall correctly, and the Unearthed Arcana rules even has a paladin/sorcerer combination:


The Paladin/Sorcerer
Charisma does the heavy lifting for this gestalt combination. Why? Two words: divine grace. Like all sorcerers, you'll send your Charisma score into the stratosphere with the every-four-levels improvement and the best cloak of Charisma you can afford. Every time you get more spells, your saving throws improve as well. The downside? You can't wear armor like most paladins.

Kris Strife
2009-03-04, 08:41 PM
Thank you Sentaku. I was about to mention that when the server died. I said I like Warmages, not Warlocks, who dont work with Paladin anyways.

Paladins are one of the most MAD classes, so theyre harder to make in point buy. You need decent Str and Con scores for combat, Dex for reflex saves until divine grace kicks in, Wis for casting, Cha for half the features and Int for skill points.

Also Shneeky, Barbarians have never really interested me, crunch or fluff.

Sorry if it seems like I'm being too picky.

The Glyphstone
2009-03-04, 09:09 PM
Dragon Mag has the Serenity feat, which changes all your Cha-related class features to depend on Wisdom instead. Paladins also don't make very good skillmonkeys because of their limited list (Know: Religion plus Ride for Mountadins are the only really critical ones), so you can afford to leave your Int at 10, or 8 if human. Dex...it is good for Reflex saves, but since Divine Grace kicks in at Level 2, Paladins don't really need it that much. That leaves Str, Con, and Wis - only slightly more MAD than a Str/Con/Maybe Int fighter, or a Str/Con Barbarian.

Str 16, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8, and you're golden. Pair with Cleric for self-buff uberness.

dspeyer
2009-03-04, 09:19 PM
One way to deal with low point-buy is a race with ability bonuses. A good one for a paladin//sorcerer would be the Draconic template (probably applied to a human). It gets you +2 to str, con and cha, which are the most important for you at a cost of +1 la. +1 natural armor is nice too, since it stacks with gear and you can't wear normal armor. It even fits fluff. You could have stats of STR: 16 DEX: 12 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 18. Take the level adjust on the paladin side.

Another thing you might try is to take your first level in ninja. That helps with skills (the initial 4x goes a long way) so you can safely dump int and it gets you wis to ac (become cha to ac with two feats), so you don't need dex as much.

Zincorium
2009-03-04, 09:29 PM
You're really not as MAD as all that if you are content to let your other side in gestalt make up for your ability scores being average. Intelligence, dexterity, and beyond a certain point, constitution and wisdom are wants but not needs. Low skill points isn't disastrous unless you're planning on needing a lot for a specific Prc or character idea, low reflex saves aren't that big a deal before divine grace, and if you can wear heavy armor dex can wait until you've got spare cash for items.

Dspeyer put in a good point about a level adjusted race or template, but be 100% sure how your DM handles those in Gestalt. There is NO official method of doing it and several mutually exclusive schools of thought. Nothing sucks worse than getting a race approved by the DM and then finding out you just totally boned yourself when he makes you take LA as both 'sides' of the progression.

Kris Strife
2009-03-04, 09:45 PM
I'd have to get special approval from my DM for a dragon magazine feat, and while not trying for a skill monkey paladin, I would like to have a nice diplomacy and some heal ranks. I tried going for the draconic/half dragon racial class from dragon magic to buy some time/stats, and was told no.

I'm not sure I'd want to use sorcerer because of ASF, is there a complete/core feat to have Int replaced by another stat?

dspeyer
2009-03-04, 10:06 PM
Replace int for what purpose? I don't think so for skills, but you could take a more skillful class.

Arcanists who are ok with light armor include warmages, beguilers and bards. Once you have light armor proficiency, there's a feat in Complete Arcane that improves it to medium. Warmages probably fit best, though the all-blasting spell list is less versatile and it isn't skillful. Beguiler has fluff issues (at least with most paladins) and it's int-based for extra MADness. Bard has alignment issues, but you might be able to get that house-ruled (or use paladin of freedom).

Kris Strife
2009-03-04, 10:21 PM
I have looked at the paladin variants, but I prefer the standard ones, and using for casting and abilities like Warmage Edge and skill checks. Aside from that, I would go Warmage, take battle caster and a breast plate, move to full plate at 8th.

Zinc: Pallys need at Wis for casting.

FinalJustice
2009-03-04, 10:36 PM
Palladin and Warmage don't strike as very sinergetic to me. You either beat stuff with a stick or with exploding magic, not with both at the same time (if you are not a duskblade). Couldn't you grab the Battle Sorcerer Variant from SRD/UA? Granted, you would have less spell slots and less spell known, which is really unpleasant, but you get to use light armor just as warmage. I'd rather have an small but versatile spell list then 7 ways to deal damage and true strike.

Zincorium
2009-03-04, 10:41 PM
I have looked at the paladin variants, but I prefer the standard ones, and using for casting and abilities like Warmage Edge and skill checks. Aside from that, I would go Warmage, take battle caster and a breast plate, move to full plate at 8th.

Zinc: Pallys need at Wis for casting.

Warmage and paladin just don't mix very well- you are of course free to do so, and it won't be absurdly gimped (i.e. monk//soulknife without Eberron material), BUT...

This is gestalt. Cut-throat should be the byword. If your character isn't functional against monsters two CR higher than your character, then you've probably got a problem.

As for Wisdom for casting:
If you compare what you get for a wisdom score (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters) and your spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm), and remember that items of wisdom boosting exist, PLUS the fact that wisdom affects your will save, spells, and not much else...

Assuming you can get wisdom boosting items, you'll need a 12 at the start to get a bonus spell at every level. Only 8 if you want to eventually cast level four spells but don't care about bonus ones.

Don't bother boosting DCs for your paladin spells, that's not a path worth walking.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-04, 10:42 PM
If you really want to reduce MAD, go Bard//Paladin with the multiclass feat(Devoted something-or-other). Toss in Snowflake Wardance, the feat to allow you to cast in Medium Armor, Extra Smiting, and focus on Swift buff spells.

The problem with Warmage//Paladin is that Action Economy bites you very quickly. You either cast or you hit. You can't do both at once. Bard makes that better, somewhat, but there really aren't many good Cha-based classes. Maybe Paladin//Wilder with powers cribbed off of the PsyWar list or something.

goram.browncoat
2009-03-05, 04:38 AM
Paladin//Sorceror can be armored if you take the battle sorceror variant and buy a psychoactive skin of ectoplasmic armor, which is a sort of light fullplate.

Zincorium
2009-03-05, 04:56 AM
Paladin//Sorceror can be armored if you take the battle sorceror variant and buy a psychoactive skin of ectoplasmic armor, which is a sort of light fullplate.

Or battle sorceror, the battle caster feat, and wear mithril armor. Which is usually easier than purchasing a psychoactive skin in campaigns without a lot of psionics.

Of course, I've gotten enough flak to shut down the air force for even mentioning battle sorceror. Losing spells is, apparently, Just That Bad.

Bosh
2009-03-05, 05:54 AM
The secret of gestalt is that the most important resource in D&D is TIME. So what you want is two classes that both help a PC in the same round.

Paladin/Warmage is AWFUL for this since you can't do paladiny stuff and warmagey stuff at the same time.

With a paladin what are want are:
-passive abilities (things that help you without you spending any actions like good will and reflex saves).
-nothing that uses Int, dear god nothing that uses Int.
-a class that gives the paladin things that a paladin can do while attacking someone.
-classes that have cool **** that can be done with free or swift actions (comb some books for spells with swift action casting times).
-classes that give you good buffs to things that a paladin does anyway.

Its not optimized by a looooong shot but monk would work better here than in most situations, (yes, in general monks suck, I know) it wouldn't make you any MADer than you already are, gives you some mobility to help get your charges home (take charge friendly feats) and ups your saves nicely. As others have mentioned paladin/sorcerer (with the right feats) and bard/paladin also work but if you're going to be a spell caster what you want the most is spells that help the paladin do paladiny things no the sort of spells that regular casters cast.

Kris Strife
2009-03-05, 10:40 AM
Even with fighter/paladin backing it up, monk cant frontline due to crap AC and no move/flurry ability with out spending feats. And again, this is complete+core only, so no snowflake wardance or battle sorceror.

Again, sorry if it feels like I'm being overly picky, I just want a character the DM will allow and that I'll have fun playing.

jcsw
2009-03-05, 10:59 AM
One strategy is to add Cha to everything. Within the cores/completes only two-ish major ways stand out:

1. Divine Grace adds cha to saves.
2. A monk multiclassed into sorc could take the aesthetic mage to change wis to AC to cha to AC.
3. Smites

Now, from this, a solid (albeit vanilla) choice would be Paladin//Sorcerer 4/Monk2/SorcerorX
(Or enlightened fist, but that's likely not allowed in gestalt)

Telonius
2009-03-05, 11:39 AM
Thank you Sentaku. I was about to mention that when the server died. I said I like Warmages, not Warlocks, who dont work with Paladin anyways.

Paladins are one of the most MAD classes, so theyre harder to make in point buy. You need decent Str and Con scores for combat, Dex for reflex saves until divine grace kicks in, Wis for casting, Cha for half the features and Int for skill points.

Also Shneeky, Barbarians have never really interested me, crunch or fluff.

Sorry if it seems like I'm being too picky.

Paladin of Freedom might work with a Warlock, if your DM allows you to use Hideous Blow on a Charge. While it's not technically RAW to do, I would houserule to allow a player to do so if they asked. (Not like either of the classes is tremendously overpowered).

monty
2009-03-05, 12:55 PM
Paladin of Freedom might work with a Warlock, if your DM allows you to use Hideous Blow on a Charge. While it's not technically RAW to do, I would houserule to allow a player to do so if they asked. (Not like either of the classes is tremendously overpowered).

And warlock is great in a MAD build, since they're perfectly functional with any low stat (or all low stats, for that matter; I'm tempted to try out a 0 pb warlock sometime).

FinalJustice
2009-03-05, 01:12 PM
Battle Sorcerer is on the SRD, maybe you can argue this to pass it by your DM.

Paladin // Bard with Devoted Performer is actually pretty good, and opens up entering into Sublime Chord for Sorcerer/Wizard spells goodness.

If all else fails, go Paladin // Favored Soul. You will want 13 Wis to be able to cast spells, but that's it. Stack . Self buff to boot with your Favored Soul spells and proceed to the wackage. Grab some utility spells and healing/status removing. At low levels, in-combat healing can actually make a big difference.

Fawsto
2009-03-05, 02:01 PM
You could go Paladin//Fav. Soul.


I mean, it has the flavour of a divine champion, boosts your Saves to the heavens and give you spells, that you will probably use as buffs. Hell, you can even grab that DMM: Persist brokeness with this build, but hey, you have a damn full BAB (almost a good thing) and you can use better weapons. This should be OK, but you are using a Gestalt to just copy a ClericZilla. You could add the FoR PrC from BoED and get a free persisted Protection from Evil Spell and a lot of Smite Goodness and a progressive spell list boosting your Fav. Soul Cleric Spells.

However, you would be a frontline melee monster, indeed.


Something Like : Fav. Soul 10 / FoR 10 // Paladin 6 / Fighter 2 / Gray Guard 9 / Anything (Maybe Kensai) 3.

With Human, you get 10 feats from this. You can use them to qualify to FoR (Power Attack and Servant of Heavens) and/or Kensai (Weapon Focus and Combat Expertise. Just remember that Fav. Soul grants you a free weapon focus). This means you still have 7 feats left, so you could go DMM Cheese: with Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM Persist and 3 Extra Turnings (probably your High Cha will help you to get more Turnings) and soemthign else. You should also consider Gray Guard, since it will eventually allow you to Smite Anything. Gray Guard + FoR = Smiting Pain, and a lot of it. Kensai can be cast off, it just brings you some weapon crunchyness. You should go Charging Smite too, so your smites can be put to good use. If you drop Kensai, you get 3 feats that can be used in some good way.

A 2 hander is your friend in this build, since you will be probably charging stuff while PAing for a Lot and Smiting for 3 times the normal smite damage. Go for it, Mr. Mc Buffed.


I hope I helped you a little. But, now, if that all optimization thing is stupid for you (and I admit, I am not good at it), you should only consider what I say about Fav. Sould put together with Paladin.

Darth Stabber
2009-03-05, 03:05 PM
Wilder//Pally: Cha synergy. Favors Will, and 4+skillpoints as opposed to 2+. Just focus on buff powers, make sure to get Body Purification along the way, it is decent way to get rid of ability damage. and if you get body adjustment you can save your lay on hands for others. force screen gives you the benefits of a shield without having to carry one, and you can get away with armor since it's psionics not arcane.

Zaq
2009-03-05, 03:10 PM
If you want to have a caster on one gestalt side and a meleer on the other, you want to be sure you have lots of swift actions you can use. Spontaneous casters get gimped by the lack of Quicken Spell unless you 1) take the ACF from PHB2 that lets a sorcerer give up their familiar to ignore the increased casting time of metamagic a few times per day, 2) Take the feat (it's either Complete Arcane or Complete Mage, I think Complete Mage) that lets you do so (but that requires you to be at least level 9), or 3) convince your GM that you really need it and that it's kind of a silly restriction anyway. If you GM considers the SRD to be "core," you could use a psionic class to good result, as they have a lot of swift-action powers, or you could shift your focus a little bit, maybe switch to a prepared caster on one side. I love spontaneous casters, but when every swift action counts (and gestalt is a prime example thereof), they really take a beating unless you choose your spells very, very carefully.

Of course, if you can find mostly or entirely swift spells to learn, that's an option, but it's harder.

hamishspence
2009-03-05, 04:57 PM
or the feat that allows you to prepare the spell ahead of time- Arcane Preparation. Was in FRCS, is repeated for 3.5 in Complete Arcane.

Keld Denar
2009-03-05, 06:12 PM
Fawtso...your build needs more Ordained Champion. You currently aren't really doing anything with those turn undead attempts you get from Paladin. You can't really turn well, so turn em into cash! Ordained Champion converts TU to smites on a 1:1 basis!

Oh, and get ya some Awesome Smite. Bad guy with a miss chance? SMITE YOUR WAY THOUGH IT! Bad guy with DR? SMITE YOUR WAY THROUGH IT! Bad guy standing up? SMITE HIS ASS DOWN!

For when you need gratuitous amounts of smitage!

Lycanthromancer
2009-03-05, 07:59 PM
Paladin//Wilder would be good, except A.) psychic warrior has much better powers for a melee character, and B.) psychic enervation is A Trap®. Since p. enervation gets progressively worse as you gain wilder levels, it eventually gets statistically worse to wild surge (you eventually lose more pp than you gain, and your chances of enervating get closer and closer to 100%).

You'll want a psion that segues into anarchic initiate (which is in Complete Psionic), if you want to go the wild surge route. And since you have access to all of the Complete books, this means that psionics is fair game...right?

In any case, psywar would probably be better, in the long run. Sure, it's Wis-based, but they have powers that will augment your fighting abilities considerably, allowing you to put fewer points in Int, Str, and Dex and be more effective than you would have been with a higher point buy without psywar in the mix. More goodies for you to use. And you can take Link Power as your level 2 psywar feat, in order to get two rounds of buffing for one manifestation (especially nice when applied to one of the psychic warrior's many swift action powers).

Just make sure you can treat your psionics as spells for the purposes of sharing with your mount.

Kris Strife
2009-03-05, 10:38 PM
Hm... Are there any dieties within one step of LG with bastard swords as their favored weapon?

MeklorIlavator
2009-03-05, 11:27 PM
Hm... Are there any dieties within one step of LG with bastard swords as their favored weapon?

No. On the other hand, unless you choose the War domain, or are a Favored Soul, it shouldn't matter much.

Kris Strife
2009-03-05, 11:31 PM
I'm thinking a Paladin//Favored Soul. Gonna try getting my first char, a half dragon paladin 25 as the diety, locally worship only demi god, low DR.

dspeyer
2009-03-06, 12:10 AM
The problem with paladin//favored soul is that it's just as MAD as paladin. More so, since the differing required skill sets make dumping intelligence harder and wisdom is more important. Yes, you can wear armor, but you still want a not-horrible dex.

A less MAD option would be ninja 1 / sorceror X. Ninja's initial skills help with low int (it wears off after a while, but by then you can cover with equipment). And with ascetic mage + mage armor you get good ac with neither armor nor dex. Try STR: 16 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 8 WIS: 10 CHA: 16 as stats.

For a very different approach, take rogue on the other gestalt side. Get plenty of skills without int, and wear heavy armor without worrying. If possible, take the variant (in SRD) that gets fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack.

Draz74
2009-03-06, 12:39 AM
I've seen Knight//Favored Soul touted as an awesome combination.

Kris Strife
2009-03-07, 01:23 AM
Going to go Paladin//Favored Soul, Fawsto's build, maybe ordained champion instead of the fighter and one of the other levels, but just level 2 for now. Homebrew diety with bastard sword as the favorite weapon. 32 point buy, human, complete and core only, 1000 GP starting equipment. What should my stat, feat, spell choices, equipment, and skill point set up be?