Clearly, Vaarsuvius's gender has now been revealed.

[Heliomance]

We can now establish that V is in fact male. But what is my evidence for this, I hear you cry? I will enumerate.

1) V is awesome.
2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.
3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.

Clearly, therefore, Evil!V, being awesome, must be a Long Haired Prettyboy, therefore V is male.

QED.

[Zanaril]

3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.


Just because you don't like it doesn't stop it being so.

[Ladorak]

As soon as I saw the comic I knew this was coming...

[Keris]

1) V is awesome.
Awesomeness has no respect for gender distinctions.

2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.
Long Hair + Pretty = Male? Besides, who says he's pretty? He may have lost his popping veins, but he still has pointed teeth and villainous eyes

3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.
...so a evil woman is something completely different from an evil man with the same appearance?

Your argument seems to hinge on Male+Evil=Awesome, while Female+Evil=B*tch. This is flawed in many ways, which I leave to other posters to elaborate on, as my time is short.

NB: I'm use "he" as a genderless pronoun when referring to V.

[magic9mushroom]

We can now establish that V is in fact male. But what is my evidence for this, I hear you cry? I will enumerate.

1) V is awesome.
2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.
3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.

Clearly, therefore, Evil!V, being awesome, must be a Long Haired Prettyboy, therefore V is male.

QED.

1) V is awesome.
2) If you look at UberV as compared to V and see his hair growing longer and smoother, it seems weird and not very dramatic.
3) If you look at UberV as compared to V and see her hair growing longer, then we go from androgynous to action girl, which is awesome.
4) V's mate is rather obviously male, which supports this.
5) Hence V is female.

[Laughing Dragon]

Perhaps V is like some species of fish and swiches from male to female and back again according to environmental cues.

So, by projection ... people see V as male or female due to some presence (or lack) in their own environment.

Just a thought ...

[Tensu]

I don't see why everyone thinks V's mate is male. she looks more feminine than V to me.

[accountingninja]

We can now establish that V is in fact male. But what is my evidence for this, I hear you cry? I will enumerate.

1) V is awesome. Because women are incapable of being awesome. They're just chicks, after all.
2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass. Or, he just looks like a male with long hair.
3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine. Again, women CAN'T be "badass", especially if she's *gasp* UGLY! I mean come on, people have to watch this. And by people, I mean red-blooded straight males.

Clearly, therefore, Evil!V, being awesome, must be a Long Haired Prettyboy, therefore V is male.

QED.

Jeez Louise, I actually think V is male, but this is really offensive. :smallannoyed:

[YesImSardonic]

Perhaps V is like some species of fish and swiches from male to female and back again according to environmental cues.

So, by projection ... people see V as male or female due to some presence (or lack) in their own environment.

Just a thought ...


The Giant's elves are actually quantum beings.

What this means: Observer-dependent sex.

[Winthur]

Hmm...

Actually, here's (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vaarsuviusmale.jpg) the infallible proof that V is a badass male.


(And also, an ultimate proof that I should be sued for my GIMP skills.)

[Godskook]

Honestly, I think the Giant has done a good job of making it impossible to tell which is which gender each is.

[magic9mushroom]

I don't see why everyone thinks V's mate is male. she looks more feminine than V to me.

More obvious male body-shape, and the ponytail looks masculine.

[warman40k]

Maybe V's both.:smalleek:
Get THAT thought out of your head.

[BillyJimBoBob]

We can now establish that V is in fact male. But what is my evidence for this, I hear you cry? I will enumerate.

1) V is awesome.
2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.
3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.

Clearly, therefore, Evil!V, being awesome, must be a Long Haired Prettyboy, therefore V is male.

QED.Yes, yes. Of course, you are right. Just stay calm now, and everything will be fine.

Psst! Quick, get the medics and the tranquilizers. This happens every time, I'm afraid.

[Zelthax]

We can now establish that V is in fact male. But what is my evidence for this, I hear you cry? I will enumerate.

1) V is awesome.
2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.
3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.

Clearly, therefore, Evil!V, being awesome, must be a Long Haired Prettyboy, therefore V is male.

QED.

I am forced to assume you are joking by the pure ridiculousness of this argument. Therefore, I will act accordingly:

HAHAHAHAHAHA, I chuckled.

[Tensu]

More obvious male body-shape, and the ponytail looks masculine.

V's chest is just as flat as his mate's. and the ponytail doesn't look masculine to me at all. V looks far the more masculine of the two to me, and I didn't even consider the possibility of him being female until his crystal ball conversation with Haley.

your perception of V =/= fact any more than mine does.

[Aaron]

Honestly, I think the Giant has done a good job of making it impossible to tell which is which gender each is.

I have to agree. The Giant has not shown V's gender at ALL in the comics (and probably never will), making these hundreds of gender threads pointless. Also, don't forget that V has now been fused together with two males and one female. So two males + one female + (unknown gender) = either half and half or 75% male and 25% female???:smallconfused:

[aurianmage]

We can now establish that V is in fact male. But what is my evidence for this, I hear you cry? I will enumerate.

1) V is awesome.
2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.
3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.

Clearly, therefore, Evil!V, being awesome, must be a Long Haired Prettyboy, therefore V is male.

QED.




I have to agree with Zelthax in that I hope you are joking. At best, it makes for a very poor joke...at worst, it makes you sexist. I certainly hope this isn't your actual "proof" that V's gender must be male, because firstly your entire post is an opinion and not factual, irrefutable proof, and secondly because I have a hard time believing that anyone living in this century still holds to the belief that awesome-related traits belong to a single gender, whether it be male OR female.

That being said, V is female in my opinion, due to the crystal ball conversation, the strand of hair that falls across V's face in the same way that Haley's does (or used to, before her haircut), and because Haley, who seems to know more about V than any other character in the entire comic (i.e. her knowing that V was married when the others didn't), always insists on rooming with V and no other party member. Therefore, I believe V is female...however, I recognize that there is no conclusive fact either way. This is just my opinion.

[Timberboar]

It's clear who does, and who does not, know the forms of logic in this thread.

It's not a list of proofs, it's a series of (admittedly flawed) statements leading to the final (suspect) conclusion.

But to claim sexism and take offense just shows ignorance.

Edit: To clarify:

Fact 1: V is awesome. (Already based on opinion, which pretty much invalidates everything else)

Statement 1: If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass. (Longhaired prettyboys are awesome)

Statement 2: If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine. (Ugly is not awesome)

Ergo, if Fact 1 is True, then Statement 1 must also be true and statement 2 must be false.

Like I said, the permise is flawed from the get-go, which makes this at best a joke... It is perhaps in poor taste, but it is not sexist.

[Undead Prince]

We can now establish that V is in fact male. But what is my evidence for this, I hear you cry? I will enumerate.

1) V is awesome.
2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.
3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.

Clearly, therefore, Evil!V, being awesome, must be a Long Haired Prettyboy, therefore V is male.

QED.

Good attempt at syllogism, but to make it flawless, you should drop #2.

I.e.:

1. Major premise: V (predicate) is awesome (middle term)
2. Minor premise: V-woman (subject) does not look awesome => is not awesome (middle term)
3. Conclusion: V is not V-woman => is man.

[charl]

I go with a compromise and say that V is a hermaphrodite.

[Kai Maera]

I have to agree with Zelthax in that I hope you are joking. At best, it makes for a very poor joke...at worst, it makes you sexist. I certainly hope this isn't your actual "proof" that V's gender must be male, because firstly your entire post is an opinion and not factual, irrefutable proof, and secondly because I have a hard time believing that anyone living in this century still holds to the belief that awesome-related traits belong to a single gender, whether it be male OR female.

That being said, V is female in my opinion, due to the crystal ball conversation, the strand of hair that falls across V's face in the same way that Haley's does (or used to, before her haircut), and because Haley, who seems to know more about V than any other character in the entire comic (i.e. her knowing that V was married when the others didn't), always insists on rooming with V and no other party member. Therefore, I believe V is female...however, I recognize that there is no conclusive fact either way. This is just my opinion.


Just for the heck of it, I would like to add that your ideas about women and awesomeness are, in fact, an opinion and not factual, irrefutable proof.

Also, note that in adding 2 males and a female to hir chemistry, V has actually become more feminine. V is, therefore, chaotic androgynous.

[Zeful]

We can now establish that V is in fact male. But what is my evidence for this, I hear you cry? I will enumerate.

1) V is awesome.
2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.
3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.

Clearly, therefore, Evil!V, being awesome, must be a Long Haired Prettyboy, therefore V is male.

QED.

That's not evidence, in the loosest sense of the term. It's just biased drivel. Of course you third point seems to speak of the concept that "All women who aren't subservient slaves to a man are b****es." Which alone makes me doubt your humanity.

If you meant this as a joke then I have on thing to say: It's not funny.

[Heliomance]

This was, indeed, mostly tongue-in-cheek. I forgot about how hard it is to express tone on the Internet, my bad.

To those calling me a sexist jerk, I have nothing against the idea of evil women, I don't think evil women are automatically inferior to evil men, or any of the other accusations that have been levelled against me. Nor do I actually consider this strip evidence for V's gender.

What I do think is that, specifically, there is some quality about the way Evil!V has been drawn that makes hir look better if taken from the perspective of hir being a bishounen than if taken from the perspective of hir being a woman. What that quality is I could not tell you, but that is my opinion and the impression I get.

[deworde]

This was, indeed, mostly tongue-in-cheek. I forgot about how hard it is to express tone on the Internet, my bad.


To paraphrase Gary Larson, your first mistake was to think this was funny.
Your second mistake was to post it on the internet.

[deworde]

Goddammit. Double post.

[Optimystik]

If you meant this as a joke then I have on thing to say: It's not funny.

http://www.mercadolibre.com.ec/jm/img?s=MEC&f=3930188_3293.jpg&v=P


Goddammit. Double post.

You CAN delete them, you know...

[Querzis]

It seems obvious to me that this thread was based on this post from the main thread:


Hey! This officially proves V a Dude! I can prove it!

1.) V = Evil spellcaster
2.) Female Evil spellcaster = Dressed like a slut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html)
3.) V ≠ Dressed like a slut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html)
4.) V ≠ Female

Except that drakeblood post was actually funny and made sense (you cant deny that its almost always like that in fantasy).

[The Minx]

I don't see why everyone thinks V's mate is male. she looks more feminine than V to me.

Um, why? Body shape, face, both very male. :smallconfused:

The only "female" thing I can see about him is context (housekeeping, kids, an apron), and guys can do all of those things. Oh, and the ponytail, but that does not mean anything either.

What did I miss? :smallsmile:

[ABB]

SIGH. Ok, just to get a cheap laugh in on this thread, I will say that if V were female I think her boobs would have gotten bigger when she went evil.

I mean, it's a proven fact that evil woman main characters have bigger boobs than their good counterparts.

So if V were female I think there'd have been an enlargement of the chest measurement, and, also, of course, evil women show more cleavage, so the front of the robe would have conveniently opened a bit.

[ABB]

That's not evidence, in the loosest sense of the term. It's just biased drivel. Of course you third point seems to speak of the concept that "All women who aren't subservient slaves to a man are b****es." Which alone makes me doubt your humanity.

If you meant this as a joke then I have on thing to say: It's not funny.

You know, you can post your opinion is as big a font as you want, but it's still just your opinion!!!

[Belkster11]

I always thought V was a girl. I guess it just seemed a good way to balance out the OotS.

MALE
1. Roy
2. Durkon
3. Elan
4. Belkar

FEMALE
1. Haley
2. Vaarsuvius

Beside, why would Haley let V sleep in the same room she did if V was a boy?

And no, I don't think Rich intends to tag alignment based on gender.

[Person1123]

Okay, yeah, the OP's proof is useless (no offense), but I have some better evidence:

1. Aarindarius has long hair and a body like V's.
2. Aarindarius is referred to as V's "master", which makes him clearly male.
3. Both male wizards in the soul splice have bodies like V's.
4. The female in the splice has a different body.

BETTER QED.

[Keris]

Beside, why would Haley let V sleep in the same room she did if V was a boy?

Because Haley knew V was married, and so had nothing to fear. :smallsigh:

Additionally, I believe it was stated at some point that V was originally a male character, but once Rich found out about the confusion regarding his gender, made sure he was as androgynous as possible. What gender actually is is still up for debate.


1. Aarindarius has long hair and a body like V's.
2. Aarindarius is referred to as V's "master", which makes him clearly male.
"Master" can be used as both a male courtesy title, or simply an expert at a particular trade. A "master sculptor" could be a woman.

3. Both male wizards in the soul splice have bodies like V's.
4. The female in the splice has a different body.

The additional souls in the splice are human, and hence of a different species to V.

[kusje]

Because Haley knew V was married, and so had nothing to fear. :smallsigh:



How is that logical?

[Xapi]

Hayley let V sleep with her because she thikns V is a female.

That doesn't mean she's right.

[Lissou]

Since we're swimming in silliness here, I feel the urge to state that the latest update (strip 635) proves that BOTH V and his mate are MALES!

Indeed, a pink triangle appeared behind him! We all know what a pink triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_triangle) means, right?

[Lunawarrior0]

I figured that V's hair growing long was a reference to Dragon Ball Z. When they went into the higher levels of Super Sayian their hair always grew to about that length. It went yellow as well, but I think that if V's hair went yellow, it would kind of ruin the character's look.

[accountingninja]

SIGH. Ok, just to get a cheap laugh in on this thread, I will say that if V were female I think her boobs would have gotten bigger when she went evil.

I mean, it's a proven fact that evil woman main characters have bigger boobs than their good counterparts.

So if V were female I think there'd have been an enlargement of the chest measurement, and, also, of course, evil women show more cleavage, so the front of the robe would have conveniently opened a bit.


Um, no, it proves nothing. It's only frequently like this because Most Writers Are Male. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostWritersAreMale) Rich has shown himself not to fall into this cliche. After all, he didn't feel the need to sex up Miko.

[kusje]

Um, no, it proves nothing. It's only frequently like this because Most Writers Are Male. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostWritersAreMale) Rich has shown himself not to fall into this cliche. After all, he didn't feel the need to sex up Miko.

Miko wasn't evil.

[krossbow]

SIGH. Ok, just to get a cheap laugh in on this thread, I will say that if V were female I think her boobs would have gotten bigger when she went evil.

I mean, it's a proven fact that evil woman main characters have bigger boobs than their good counterparts.

So if V were female I think there'd have been an enlargement of the chest measurement, and, also, of course, evil women show more cleavage, so the front of the robe would have conveniently opened a bit.


Obviously such characters would have taken feats to let them use constitution to improve spell casting; V being a non-optimized blaster mage has no time for such trifling.:smalltongue:






On the topic of V's mate: while Personally i say V has looked much more masculine in the past few comics than normal, Its a very common role reversal to have the Male in the relationship be completely helpless with a normally feminine job while the wife or girlfriend is an incredibly powerful individual who saves his ass (Examples: Genis and presea from ToS with Genis being a waif while presea carries around multi-ton statues and a gigantic axe).



because of this, i personally think that V is probably a girl due to this trope.

[accountingninja]

It's clear who does, and who does not, know the forms of logic in this thread.

It's not a list of proofs, it's a series of (admittedly flawed) statements leading to the final (suspect) conclusion.

But to claim sexism and take offense just shows ignorance.

When you start by prefacing that gender has been decided based on these very subjective opinions, logic has nothing to do with it. After all, presuming V is male, I'm sure there are those who think that this new look is "ugly" and not "awesome". It is not a given that Male!V=attractive while Female!V=ugly while in this new form.

The reason this reeks of sexism is this question: WHY would Evil Female V be "ugly"? Because she isn't portrayed in a sufficiently Stripperific (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Stripperiffic) fashion? Who decides that Female villians absolutely need to be "hot" anyway? Oh, yes, male writers. Of course.

I stand by my original post that this is offensive. To try to distract with misapplied logic and call anyone who took offense "ignorant" is a common tactic to quiet voices whose opinions may make you uncomfortable. :smallamused:

[accountingninja]

Miko wasn't evil.

No, but she was an antagonist. I found it refreshing that her uniform was no different from any of her male peers, which it easily could have been.

[kusje]

Oh, yes, male writers. Of course.


Male readers. Don't blame the writers for giving the people what they want. Sex sells, I don't see how thats sexist.

[Cúchulainn]

Male readers. Don't blame the writers for giving the people what they want. Sex sells, I don't see how thats sexist.

*pinches nose and rubs eyes* I don't even...I don't care if you're right or wrong but nothing could get this thread locked faster than this discussion escalating.

Don't let this thread get serious everyone, just laugh and move on.

[SinsI]

We can now establish that V is in fact male. But what is my evidence for this, I hear you cry? I will enumerate.

1) V is awesome.
2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.
3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.

Clearly, therefore, Evil!V, being awesome, must be a Long Haired Prettyboy, therefore V is male.

QED.
It has been obvious since the strip they showed V's partner with the children - only males can leave family behind for adventure.

[Dairun Cates]

Damn it! When did ARCANE CONDUIT OF ULTIMATE POWER stop being a gender?

What? It never was?

WELL IT IS NOW!

Edit:
Oh, and for the record, you're using gender wrong.

-Sex is your physical determination between male and female or a bit of both in some cases.

-Gender is your emotional axis between male or female or a combination. It's how you identify yourself. Males can identify as feminine and females can identify as masculine (like Utena).

So, no matter what you say, V is gender neutral.

It's the sex we'll never stop arguing over.

[Snake-Aes]

2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.

http://media.animegalleries.net/albums/userpics/65616/colonelsanders%2Bsephiroth.jpg

[Keris]

It's the sex we'll never stop arguing over.

That's what she said. :smallsigh:

But yeah, Sex is the biological concept, Gender is the sociological one.

[krossbow]

OBVIOUSLY, V is a witchalock. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/1/21/)

[BillyJimBoBob]

Miko wasn't evil.Yes, yes. Of course, you are right. Just stay calm now, and everything will be fine.

Psst! Quick, get the medics and the tranquilizers. This happens every time, I'm afraid.

[Dairun Cates]

OBVIOUSLY, V is a witchalock. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/1/21/)

Crap! V can make Wolfoids!?

[accountingninja]

Male readers. Don't blame the writers for giving the people what they want. Sex sells, I don't see how thats sexist.

I think I am proof that there are female readers of this comic. But of course, the straight male POV is the only "normal" one, I forgot. I must need to "lighten up"! :smallannoyed:
Anyway, when a male villian is judged only based on his physical appearance/sex appeal on as consistent a basis as females, we can talk.


http://media.animegalleries.net/albums/userpics/65616/colonelsanders%2Bsephiroth.jpg

:smallbiggrin: Now, that's the Rule 34-iest Rule 34 I've ever seen!!

[whatchamacallit]

I find it endlessly amusing that anyone even cares. Ultimately what does it matter?

[Dairun Cates]

Anyway, when a male villian is judged only based on his physical appearance/sex appeal on as consistent a basis as females, we can talk.

Believe me, I agree with you on this one. OOTS definitely has male and female readers alike, and I think Rich is definitely a good enough writer to not instantly resort to "sex sells".

On top of that, believe me, I understand societal double-standards.

But seeing as the content of the strip discussed...

I... just... have... to...

Estuans interius
Ira vehementi
Estuans interius
Ira vehementi
SEPHIROTH!
SEPHIROTH!

Seriously, you don't get much more "loved for physical appearance" than Sephiroth.

But as a general rule of thumb, yeah, there's some double standards with female villains.

[krossbow]

I think I am proof that there are female readers of this comic. But of course, the straight male POV is the only "normal" one, I forgot. I must need to "lighten up"! :smallannoyed:
Anyway, when a male villian is judged only based on his physical appearance/sex appeal on as consistent a basis as females, we can talk.


Not condoning the the train of thought, but several Villians in RPG's have a tendency to fall into this. (http://www.testriffic.com/resultfiles/91877ac-sephiroth-1.jpg)

[Dairun Cates]

Not condoning the the train of thought, but several Villians in RPG's have a tendency to fall into this. (http://www.testriffic.com/resultfiles/91877ac-sephiroth-1.jpg)

Ah. Touché with the actual visual imagery, but I had the foresight to bring the choir of pedophiles.

[accountingninja]

Not condoning the the train of thought, but several Villians in RPG's have a tendency to fall into this. (http://www.testriffic.com/resultfiles/91877ac-sephiroth-1.jpg)

Alright, I'll concede Sephiroth. The Japanese tend to be equal opportunity sexualizers. :smalltongue:

BUT, I guess my main gripe is the women villians HAVE to be sexy, or use sex as their weapon, to sit well with a male audience. Let's just assume that V IS female: She's uber-powerful, she's SCARY. She has the makings of a powerful villian. Who CARES if she isn't sexy? Men get the option to be sexy or not (like Seph compared to, say, Xykon).

[NovaSeaker]

V's gender can be determined by subtle clues in the way Rich draws him. Rich has a dinstinctive style that includes differences in the way he draws males and females. Some of the differences are more subtle than others, but you can easily make them out by comparing Male Roy and Female Roy from the Belt of Gender Swapping arc.

1. All females, even elven ones, nay even robed elven ones (Liira), are drawn curvier, with a stylized bust and buttox. Every single female we've seen in this comic follows this style. Claiming that V (or his mate) are just flatchested would mean that they are the most frumpy, flatchested women on the face of the planet, and it is unreasonable to assume that they are the only two exceptions.

2. If you still claim that the possibiliy, however unprobable, that V and/or his mate are the most flatchested women on the face of the planet, you still have to answer to their heads. Rich draws female heads with a different proportion than males. Female eyes are a bit more off-center, lower and to the edge of the circle, than males. Again, compare Male and Female versions of Roy (It's really visible there because both male and female Roy are bald, so you can clearly see the difference in placement for female Roy's face. However, if you compare Female Roy to *all* females, they are all proportioned the same way). V is drawn with a male face. Therefore he is male.

3. V has a definitive sex. Rich did not intend for him to be androgynous, so he was not drawn androgynously. The confusion started with fans. This means that Rich designed V according to the physical sex he knew him to be. That means V follows all traditional conventions for his physical sex, because he was never intended to be bafflingly androgynous to start with, and because V has always been drawn the same way. Even with the art change, V's basic body shape and face were kept the same.

Therefore: V is drawn with a male body and face. V is male.

To further answer some questions as to his androgeny: V's mate is also drawn with a male body and face. V is gay, and has adopted children with his gay lifepartner. This is why Haley does not have a problem sharing a room with him, and why V has no problem with the homosexuality shown in the tavern during the Azure City new year's festival. He believes that attraction is attraction and love is love gender/sex is no barrier to it.

[Eldrys]

is everyone forgetting that Haley(and everyone else in the party) calls V a girl, or refers to her as V. haley also consistantly bunks with V and calls her "girlfriend" all the time, and V never objects. I mean seriosly if someone called you a girl when you were a boy, or vice versa, you would most likely object.

[NovaSeaker]

It's rather stereotypical, but I've seen very many presentations of male homosexual characters in various media that do not object to being called "girlfriend." And in fact, refer to each other the same way.

Also, V may just not care about gender.

Also, you forget that not everyone calls V a girl. Durkon calls him by male pronouns, as does Roy. And even if the entirety of OotS calls him a girl, Nale and Sabine can't agree on his gender. Also, Rich has explicitly stated that characters may think they know V's gender but that's just the character's opinion. So what other people call V has no bearing on anything.

Just look at how he's drawn.

[accountingninja]

He believes that attraction is attraction and love is love gender/sex is no barrier to it.

Indeed, it seems that gender/sex is really of no consequence to him. I also think you make some great points. Perhaps as an elf, he has different ideas about what love and sexuality entail?
V has never corrected ANYone who presumed to know his gender. It's just not important to him.

I think V was originally male as well. The androgyny was poking fun at the typical "fey" look of elves and how humans may not be able to tell their genders by sight (and the resulting humor from that). Then, once mystery was generated by the fans, Rich just ran with it. Just my theory.

[NovaSeaker]

Indeed, it seems that gender/sex is really of no consequence to him. I also think you make some great points. Perhaps as an elf, he has different ideas about what love and sexuality entail?
V has never corrected ANYone who presumed to know his gender. It's just not important to him.

I think V was originally male as well. The androgyny was poking fun at the typical "fey" look of elves and how humans may not be able to tell their genders by sight (and the resulting humor from that). Then, once mystery was generated by the fans, Rich just ran with it. Just my theory.

I mostly agree with you. I do think that V was drawn with certain characteristics (long hair) to make him a bit "fey" in appearance. However, I don't think he was intentionally drawn to be so bafflingly confusingly androgynous. I think Rich has stated that he didn't intend him to be so, but did indeed run with the joke once he realized there was confusion.

Also, if you don't mind, I'd like to go back to point 2 of my first post, and pre-emptively cut-off an argument I didn't think of.

Supposition: V's face is drawn male because he's actually female but very "butch" or mannish looking.

Debunking of above supposition: Take a look at the pure-blood orcs on that tropical island. I don't recall offhand if any of them were female, but I can guarantee you that if any of them were, they were drawn with the standard female head proportion. Being "ugly" or "butch" does not excuse you from Rich's drawing style. Females will always be drawn with female faces.

[Dairun Cates]

Alright, I'll concede Sephiroth. The Japanese tend to be equal opportunity sexualizers. :smalltongue:

BUT, I guess my main gripe is the women villians HAVE to be sexy, or use sex as their weapon, to sit well with a male audience. Let's just assume that V IS female: She's uber-powerful, she's SCARY. She has the makings of a powerful villian. Who CARES if she isn't sexy? Men get the option to be sexy or not (like Seph compared to, say, Xykon).

1. Even as a straight male, I can see that Xykon is one sexy sexy lich. I think it's the crown and the superb acerbic wit.

2. Once again. No arguments that that's mostly the case, but I think as a whole English-speaking society is getting better about that. While no villainesses come to mind, I can actually list a few cases of realistic-looking AND interesting female protagonists (at least in the realm of visual media).

Then again. I think that's directly a result of people actually going to college for degrees in graphic design, game development, and other related fields. Some of us want to actually make something a little more substantial (at least in the sense of being more worthwhile than a summer action blockbuster).

Amusingly enough, in one of my game development courses, we actually aimed for a "realistic" female protagonist, just to see if we could do it (I use air quotes because this game was a retro futuristic steampunk western space opera action platformer satire with puzzle elements).

Don't have any images on hand, but I did manage to find one of the profile images online.

http://www.cgchannel.com/mvnplugin/mvnforum/upload/memberavatars/Gumslinger.jpg

Visual appealing, but not sexualized.

I think we did okay, personally.




*snaps fingers* Maleficent. Awesome Disney Villain. Visually interesting. NO SEX APPEAL WHATSOEVER. Yeah yeah. Bit late for that one.

[accountingninja]

*snaps fingers* Maleficent. Awesome Disney Villain. Visually interesting. NO SEX APPEAL WHATSOEVER. Yeah yeah. Bit late for that one.

Yes! She does rule. Very scary and awesome. No sex appeal, though I wouldn't call her "ugly": just proof that is doesn't have to be a Vamp vs. Hag situation.

I definitely agree with you that attitudes are getting better, but when I see it crop up like with the OP, I HAVE to challenge that. It's attitudes like that that make us female geeks feel like we're in a "boy's only" club. But you seem not to be like this. :smallwink:

BTW, Xykon's acerbic wit is indeed smexay. :smalltongue:

[Dairun Cates]

Yes! She does rule. Very scary and awesome. No sex appeal, though I wouldn't call her "ugly": just proof that is doesn't have to be a Vamp vs. Hag situation.

Actually, there's a phrase for that. It's called Appeal. It's a factor of "visual attraction" that's not related to beauty. It's actually one of the fundamental laws of animation (There's 10, I think).

Early Disney had a LOT of strong animation fundamentals, actually. Most Disney Villains have EXTREEEEEEME amounts of appeal, but some of them are just fugly. Ursula looks like a transvestite ichored octupus opera singer, and Jafar looks like someone managed to eat a sour ball so strong their face slipped under their Schartzwald Radius and slipped into a blackhole. Still, you can't help loving to look at them. That's the power of Appeal.

Amusingly enough, possibly one of the LEAST visually appealing Disney villains (pre-1995 or so) is Gaston, and he's actually supposed to be ATTRACTIVE.

Sorry. Bit off-topic there. Nerd moment.

[accountingninja]

Actually, there's a phrase for that. It's called Appeal. It's a factor of "visual attraction" that's not related to beauty. It's actually one of the fundamental laws of animation (There's 10, I think).

Early Disney had a LOT of strong animation fundamentals, actually. Most Disney Villains have EXTREEEEEEME amounts of appeal, but some of them are just fugly. Ursula looks like a transvestite ichored octupus opera singer, and Jafar looks like someone managed to eat a sour ball so strong their face slipped under their Schartzwald Radius and slipped into a blackhole. Still, you can't help loving to look at them. That's the power of Appeal.

Amusingly enough, possibly one of the LEAST visually appealing Disney villains (pre-1995 or so) is Gaston, and he's actually supposed to be ATTRACTIVE.

Sorry. Bit off-topic there. Nerd moment.

Huh! That's actually very interesting! I'd love to hear what = Appeal. Are there any tried and true formulas, or features to stay away from? I've often wondered was it was about certain character designs I found so good, regardless of whether they were "supposed" to be ugly or pretty.

Funny you should mention Gaston, I always thought him rather grotesque-looking, but maybe that was the intent. :smallwink:

[Lira]

is everyone forgetting that Haley(and everyone else in the party) calls V a girl, or refers to her as V. haley also consistantly bunks with V and calls her "girlfriend" all the time, and V never objects. I mean seriosly if someone called you a girl when you were a boy, or vice versa, you would most likely object.Go look through all 635 comics and find me one instance where Haley calls V a girl or "girlfriend". You won't find one. Haley has never called V one gender or the other, so please don't make false statements like this.

[Aki]

1. All females, even elven ones, nay even robed elven ones (Liira), are drawn curvier, with a stylized bust and buttox. Every single female we've seen in this comic follows this style. Claiming that V (or his mate) are just flatchested would mean that they are the most frumpy, flatchested women on the face of the planet, and it is unreasonable to assume that they are the only two exceptions.

I actually always assumed that the reason for Vaarsuvius's androgyny was V's low Charisma. I know that in actual 3.5e charisma is not directly linked to physical attractiveness, but in OOTS it seems (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) to work that way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html). Vaarsuvius has a low enough Charisma to panic when forced into a situation that requires what I'm guessing is an untrained Diplomacy check (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html), and since most people in the Stickverse seem to be attracted to those who are noticeably male or female, androgyny seems like a reasonable result of a the Cha penalty.

However, V's mate isn't that likely to have an equally low Charisma, and even if they both did, I think that now that V is hosting an Epic sorcerer, there's probably some sort of temporary modification to V's Charisma--I have no idea if it would be necessary to use the sorcerer's spells, but Vaarsuvius's appearance has definitely changed (and a lot of forum members, at least, seem to think that evil Vaarsuvius is more attractive than normal Vaarsuvius).

In theory, then, V's sex would now be revealed, except V still looks androgynous to me.

...except, really, I don't think shark teeth are attractive on anyone, male or female, so I'm a little confused as to how, as the original poster said, evil!V would look like a long haired prettyboy if it were correct to call V a boy, or at least male. Wouldn't shark teeth be equally terrifying and disturbing regardless of the sex of the person whose mouth they're in?

[hamishspence]

Most pics of goblins and orcs grinning in OOTS strips (including prequel books and Dragon) show interlock, pointed, sharkish. But when not doing this, its little fangs- not so ugly.

V is the same- when not showing Evil grin, looks like a vampire- and these have a big Charisma bonus.

[Zack Norglad]

Skipping trough all the replies...
Your evidence is insufficient and absurd.

Dough, I have always imagined him as a male, and this transformation hasn't changed my opinion.

[Dairun Cates]

Huh! That's actually very interesting! I'd love to hear what = Appeal. Are there any tried and true formulas, or features to stay away from? I've often wondered was it was about certain character designs I found so good, regardless of whether they were "supposed" to be ugly or pretty.

There really aren't exact formulas. It's more of an exercise in shape, color, and proportion. Four things that generally help are
1. Make the character look different from the average person in the movie. There's extra and there's main characters. You know a main character from a glance because of how they look.

2. Exaggerate features. A lot of memorable characters have some outstanding feature. Mickey Mouse has his ears. Popeye has his muscles and his pop-eye. Characters with really big noses tend to be memorable too. In the previous example. Jafar's distorted face is really just a HUGE exaggeration of classic villain traits. Tall, skinny, long face, eyes close together, a goatee. It's a meshing of various small elements to work to get something that works even better in the gestalt. The feature doesn't have to be a part of the body either. Ms. Brisby from Secret of NIMH is memorable because of her cape. Take Mr. Incredible. Is he more memorable in or out of costume? Fear the power of spandex and a domino mask.

3. Color. Characters with distinguished color palettes stick out. Maleficent is purple, green, and black (three colors that stick out a LOT if you know your color theory). This makes her an obvious villain. You instantly know from the color and the clash of the colors draw the eye. On the other spectrum, Superman is Red, Blue, and a smidgen of Yellow. Bright primary colors for a bright straightforward character. If you want a character to be easier to relate to, you can add some soft blues. They tend to relax the eye on the character.

4. Form. You either want to go curvy and pleasant (not in THAT way), or jagged and sharp. Curvy generally give more relaxed or wild characters like the animaniacs or just about every good-hearted fat man (or Totoro) from anything ever. Sharp gives a more serious tone and orients itself to action like Samurai Jack or 90% of anime characters.

Really. Other than that. There's not a whole lot of "rules" to it. It's about instinct and applying ideas that work. I could talk theory and my experiences with amateur designers and professors I've worked for hours, but it'd really be a topic for another thread on another forum.

The thing to keep in mind though, is that not every character can or SHOULD have appeal. If you try to make everyone stick out, the work loses cohesiveness and the characters with true appeal lose some. So, the generic mooks are actually as important to a character's appeal as the character themself.

But yeah. It's really just about making a character unique and stick out. Even with actual attractiveness, the eye is inherently drawn to "different" things.

Edit: AH! Bingo! Found it. It's the 12 Principles of Animation. They interlink a lot. Here's an article that gives very short overviews of all of them.
http://www.animationtoolworks.com/library/article9.html

[NovaSeaker]

I actually always assumed that the reason for Vaarsuvius's androgyny was V's low Charisma. I know that in actual 3.5e charisma is not directly linked to physical attractiveness, but in OOTS it seems (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) to work that way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html). Vaarsuvius has a low enough Charisma to panic when forced into a situation that requires what I'm guessing is an untrained Diplomacy check (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html), and since most people in the Stickverse seem to be attracted to those who are noticeably male or female, androgyny seems like a reasonable result of a the Cha penalty.

However, V's mate isn't that likely to have an equally low Charisma, and even if they both did, I think that now that V is hosting an Epic sorcerer, there's probably some sort of temporary modification to V's Charisma--I have no idea if it would be necessary to use the sorcerer's spells, but Vaarsuvius's appearance has definitely changed (and a lot of forum members, at least, seem to think that evil Vaarsuvius is more attractive than normal Vaarsuvius).

In theory, then, V's sex would now be revealed, except V still looks androgynous to me.

...except, really, I don't think shark teeth are attractive on anyone, male or female, so I'm a little confused as to how, as the original poster said, evil!V would look like a long haired prettyboy if it were correct to call V a boy, or at least male. Wouldn't shark teeth be equally terrifying and disturbing regardless of the sex of the person whose mouth they're in?

Attractiveness does not change the way the female body template is drawn. Every. Single. Female. Is drawn in the same style. Supposing that V is female but drawn male because she's ugly or mannish is also discounted in the face. Look at Therkala. She is drawn in the female style. So is her mother. Are you seriously considering that the most "manly" elven women are uglier than a half-orc?

[Querzis]

is everyone forgetting that Haley(and everyone else in the party) calls V a girl, or refers to her as V. haley also consistantly bunks with V and calls her "girlfriend" all the time, and V never objects. I mean seriosly if someone called you a girl when you were a boy, or vice versa, you would most likely object.

Yeah, you probably werent reading the same comic as me because Haley never called him anything else then V or Vaarsuvius. Haley do probably know his gender though.

And yes, I do call V a 'he' even though I know perfectly well that right now he has no gender. But the fact his that Rich meant V to be a male at first and that he just became andorogynous because people on the forum were confused so I wont stop calling V a 'he'.

And by the way, I also thought V mate looked a lot more feminine then V but thats more because I never saw whats supposed to be feminine about V in the first place.

[NovaSeaker]

A few posts back, I said that I didn't know off the top of my head whether any of the pureblood orcs on that tropical island were female, but if they were they'd be drawn in the female style.

I was right. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html)

Last panel, in the horde of orcs chasing the protagonists, right in the middle, is a pureblood female orc.

Eyes slightly more off-center and lower than a males. Curvy body type.

There is no possible way that, if V were sexed female, he could possibly be mannish enough to warrant not having the female body template. Even ORC women have it. Female head, female eye placement, female body type.

V has none of these. He is male. (And so is his mate.)

[Querzis]

A few posts back, I said that I didn't know off the top of my head whether any of the pureblood orcs on that tropical island were female, but if they were they'd be drawn in the female style.

I was right. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0559.html)

Last panel, in the horde of orcs chasing the protagonists, right in the middle, is a pureblood female orc.

Eyes slightly more off-center and lower than a males. Curvy body type.

There is no possible way that, if V were sexed female, he could possibly be mannish enough to warrant not having the female body template. Even ORC women have it. Female head, female eye placement, female body type.

V has none of these. He is male. (And so is his mate.)

There is a lot more then just one of them in that strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0551.html

[Volkov]

Behold as I use your logic against you.

It would be way cooler if this Ultraloth was a Pit Fiend therefore it must be.

[NovaSeaker]

There is a lot more then just one of them in that strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0551.html

Excellent! This further emphasises my point.


You see, if we had just one pureblood orc female to go by, someone could rightly claim that, perhaps, that one curvy female orc was akin to a supermodel and unrealistically pretty for an orc. Such a claim would be very improbable, but nothing could be said against it for lack of evidence.

But this is not the case. We now have an entire population of pureblood female orcs that use the curvy female bodytemplate and the same slightly-offset female eyes. Unless this island is a eugenics paradise where only the prettiest orc genes are present in the population. Which would be ridiculous, and not in a "haha, they worship Banjo" way.

So even ORCS, the ugliest and burliest humanoids I can think of, use the female body type for female orcs. Females all have the same body, the same head proportion, the same eye placement.

V has not of these. V is male.

Also, using the attractiveness arguement would unfortunately suppose that ELVES are a butch race. Let me explain.

If V is female, and is so androgynously butch as to appear male that she actually has a male body type, then elves would be uglier than orcs. Because even NORMAL FEMALE ORCS use the female body type.

V isn't supposed to be androgynous because he's UGLY. He's supposed to be androgynous because elves are fey and somewhat feminin. The adrogyny of elves, the funny part of it, is that even the males look like feminin. Unless OotS-world elves are actually supposed to be the ugliest creatures on the planet, suggesting that a female elf is so butch as to be confused for male flies in the face of what the joke is supposed to intend.

[Aki]

Or the female could just not have enough body fat in the right places to be noticeably curvy, in a race where males tend to be more delicate than in any other race. She wouldn't have to be visibly muscled, or anything.

I'm not trying to argue that V is female, because I actually don't believe it myself. However, there are a lot of people--in-comic and out of it--who do, and while the out-of-comic people are looking at a much less detailed image than they're used to seeing when they attempt to figure out what sex someone is, the characters who interact with V don't have that difficulty.

The Charisma thing was the best explanation I could come up with, but your argument about the orcs disproves it. I hadn't thought about that.

[Ridureyu]

Honestly, the next few strips will reveal V's gender pretty easily.

If V decides to "Tear down creation just to see if you can," then he definitely is Male.

If V decides to "Destroy everyone who has ever slighted you," then she is definitely female.

[Dairun Cates]

The adrogyny of elves, the funny part of it, is that even the males look like feminin.

Okay. In all fairness here, you're thinking specifically of Tolkien elves. There are actually a lot of kinds, and while D&D works primarily in Tolkien elves it does seem to gain some influence from enough sources to make it not automatic to assume Tolkien. Sure, they're not the old kind, which are almost indistinguishable from pixies, but I also don't see anything in D&D that makes them glow pale blue when dramatic as a racial trait.

Besides, even Tolkien elves can be ugly. Go ahead and TELL me this (http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.media/LOTRO_HeadShot.jpg) is a pretty face. That's straight from LOTRO, and it's not just a modeling issue. You can be feminine without being non-androgynous. Women can actually be ugly.

Also... Seeing as we're assuming 3.5 elves... Is this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG101.jpg) or this (http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/images/ElvenRanger.jpg) honestly your idea of physical beauty? Even in D&D cannon some of the elves are pretty damned ugly without losing that elven androgyny.

On top of that, you seem to argue that V is male because hir eyes are male while simply skipping over the female body section as (they must just be frumpy and flat chested). Amusingly enough, if we're going by Tolkien elven stereotypes, guess what? Every female elf that we've seen has a fairly small chest. You know, because if ALL elves are androgynous, the females would have to have a somewhat masculine build in some places. So, the argument COULD be made towards a female.

Also, you're using human beauty standards for a race we've seen little of and have every indication to believe has different standards of beauty. You're comparing elves to human ideals of beauty here.

But really. I think it boils down to this, and people seem to forget this. This is Rich Burlew's story. He's made it obvious that you're not supposed to know and he's one of the best damn retconners out there. Even if you did have substantial proof, it's probably going to be covered at some point (remember the elven mate and the adopted kids?).

Even if he didn't, this really only poses a theory as you have no actual way to prove it. Your theory has other possibilities (like the frumpiness issue, which could be a possibility). So, there's not even a reason to say it's proof. It's really proof to a theory. It's honestly as valid as saying that the innuendo from early strips with V and Haley in the same room about crystal orbs wouldn't make a lick of sense if V's a boy.

The point really is... If Rich says you don't know. You don't know. He's not going to be giving direct hints on the gender, and it's likely that V really is written under the assumption that shplee is neither. Even if Rich said V is one, it still wouldn't be showing up in the writing.

Reality really only goes beyond the writer's pen and scope through the reader's imagination. You're open to an opinion, but when the author has indicated that you're not supposed to know something and you haven't been given hints, your speculation is just that. Speculation.

[Rajhiim]

The proof you seek...

When rooms must be shared, women share with women and/or children - but never with men (outside of alright giggity giggity)

V and Haley have shared a room but not Haley and Belkar.

Halflings are looked upon as children, in form. So in this scenario, Belkar is the closest thing we have to a child but yet, HE has not shared a room with Haley yet V has. Thus V is a woman since Belkar clearly is not a child.

Logic Brought to you by: :elan:

[dragongirl13]

This thread had better be a joke. It had really better be.

1) Rich HAS STATED that he will never reveal V's gender. We can therefore say that hir gender is: UNDEFINED. :smallannoyed:
2) My natural inclination as a female is to call the person who started this thread sexist. Really, if that thing about awesomeness being male had been said to my face I would have decked the person to say it. And no one who knows me in real life wants to get punched by me. :smallmad:
3) HOW MANY FRIGGIN THREADS ON THIS SUBJECT HAVE WE FRIGGIN HAD??? :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

[krossbow]

It should be noted that orcs in OotS look notably different from normal D&D orcs. I'm basing this off of the "Accurate" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html) drawing of Thog and Nale from Cliffport. While its stated to be pure insanity by the stick figures, nevertheless Thog has a nose in this picture; orcs and halforcs are notable for lacking a true nose in almost all D&D artwork.


In fact, Thog looks much more comely than normal D&D half-orcs in that picture; from their it can be theorized that female half-orcs likewise are not as bad as normal D&D half orcs. The main feature seems to be tusks in OotS, which is a notable departure from normal D&D orcs.


Hell, Pathfinder orcs (based on D&D 3.5) don't even take a minus to charisma, they're just dumb. Granted, thats going a bit far as pathfinder half orcs looks more like bodybuilding elves than orcs.

[Duma]

V's gender can be determined by subtle clues in the way Rich draws him. Rich has a dinstinctive style that includes differences in the way he draws males and females. Some of the differences are more subtle than others, but you can easily make them out by comparing Male Roy and Female Roy from the Belt of Gender Swapping arc.

1. All females, even elven ones, nay even robed elven ones (Liira), are drawn curvier, with a stylized bust and buttox. Every single female we've seen in this comic follows this style. Claiming that V (or his mate) are just flatchested would mean that they are the most frumpy, flatchested women on the face of the planet, and it is unreasonable to assume that they are the only two exceptions.

2. If you still claim that the possibiliy, however unprobable, that V and/or his mate are the most flatchested women on the face of the planet, you still have to answer to their heads. Rich draws female heads with a different proportion than males. Female eyes are a bit more off-center, lower and to the edge of the circle, than males. Again, compare Male and Female versions of Roy (It's really visible there because both male and female Roy are bald, so you can clearly see the difference in placement for female Roy's face. However, if you compare Female Roy to *all* females, they are all proportioned the same way). V is drawn with a male face. Therefore he is male.

3. V has a definitive sex. Rich did not intend for him to be androgynous, so he was not drawn androgynously. The confusion started with fans. This means that Rich designed V according to the physical sex he knew him to be. That means V follows all traditional conventions for his physical sex, because he was never intended to be bafflingly androgynous to start with, and because V has always been drawn the same way. Even with the art change, V's basic body shape and face were kept the same.

Therefore: V is drawn with a male body and face. V is male.

To further answer some questions as to his androgeny: V's mate is also drawn with a male body and face. V is gay, and has adopted children with his gay lifepartner. This is why Haley does not have a problem sharing a room with him, and why V has no problem with the homosexuality shown in the tavern during the Azure City new year's festival. He believes that attraction is attraction and love is love gender/sex is no barrier to it.

NovaSeaker's argument is the best I've read so far in this forum regarding V's sex. I'm convinced.

I thought V was a girl when I started reading OotS, simply because it made sense to me. Like another poster said, 4 males and 2 females seemed like a well balanced party. Also, the joke with the orbs made no sense if V wasn't a girl... It had never even occurred to me that nobody had ever called V by a feminine pronoun or that hir gender was supposed to be a mystery. It was only much later when some NPC called V a "he" that I had to review my opinion -- it was a shock to realize I had read hundreds of strips without noticing it back then. Some time later I started checking the forums and found out hir sex was never revealed, and that the opinions of other characters might be inaccurate regarding this. Then I went back to thinking of V as a girl most of the time, but reading arguments as good as this, well...

I'd be bummed if he is a man, since I've always thought otherwise, so I'll just try not to think about it too much. :smalltongue:

[Jigsaw Forte]

Clearly V is a man because...

Well, look at that frickin' sigil in the background of the first panel. He's not just gay, he's officially FLAMING.

Thank you.

[dragongirl13]

It had never even occurred to me that nobody had ever called V by a feminine pronoun or that hir gender was supposed to be a mystery.

Have you read the strip that takes place in the potion shop? The storekeepers refer to V as female.

[Duma]

Have you read the strip that takes place in the potion shop? The storekeepers refer to V as female.

I'm certain I did, although I can't remember it right now. There have been a few other strips with NPCs referring to V as male or female, but the first one I can remember reading was when V was inscribing spells in hir spellbook and the people there called V a "he".

[Duma]

Also, on the whole "beauty" discussion at the beggining of this thread... Am I the only one who thinks Evil V looks great either as a guy or a girl? I didn't think she looks butch or ugly at all. Actually she resembles a female necromancer character of mine, who dressed in heavy black robes and cape much alike V's, the only skin she showed was her face and hands. The long flowing hair, too... I considered that character to be very beautiful in appearance and so much more is Evil V!

I guess beauty IS in the eye of the beholder.

</fangirl>

[X2]

I have no idea what Vaarsuvius is... my trusty coin is far more decisive than I am so let me just flip her.

Umm... it would appear V is a male.

[krossbow]

I have to admit, V currently reminds me of Khrima's final form (http://adventurers-comic.com/d/20050614.html) from adventurers

[Aaron]

Have you read the strip that takes place in the potion shop? The storekeepers refer to V as female.


I'm certain I did, although I can't remember it right now. There have been a few other strips with NPCs referring to V as male or female, but the first one I can remember reading was when V was inscribing spells in hir spellbook and the people there called V a "he".

As Rich said in the FAQs, "I will never reveal the truth! Bwahaha! Keep in mind that while certain other characters might refer to V as being male or female, that simply reveals their perception. Not the actual reality of the situation". And here is more proof V is androgynous: 323 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html) panel 4, and 442 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)panel 11. :smalltongue:

Also, haven't we had over 100 threads about V's not-to-be-ever-shown gender? :smallconfused:

[Alex Warlorn]

Also, I would guess that V's partner is also male, not just V himself.

[2xMachina]

I think different people see V as different gender depending on their "thinking".

If you go by looks alone, V looks more female, and h** mate looks male.

However, if you go by speech, V talks more like a male, and h** mate speaks more femininely.

Personally, I take visual cues more than speech patterns, so I think V is female. Sure, she's flatter than most, but looking at the long hair, and everything else while disregarding the flatness, she looks female.

V's mate... the pony tail and body shape looks male, even with the softer speech.

That's how I feel the second I saw them anyway.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

I had a similiar situation as above as I didn't even think of V as anything but a female, and was really confused when a character referred to her as a 'he' later on. I looked around, realized the androgynous argument that was abound, and decided to discredit it. V is what V is, it doesn't really matter, just enjoy the comic anyway. Nothing anyone is going to say will change what I think of V, probably not even if it's Rich himself. Live and let live, people, it's not that big of a deal.

[Querzis]

I think different people see V as different gender depending on their "thinking".

If you go by looks alone, V looks more female, and h** mate looks male.

However, if you go by speech, V talks more like a male, and h** mate speaks more femininely.

Personally, I take visual cues more than speech patterns, so I think V is female. Sure, she's flatter than most, but looking at the long hair, and everything else while disregarding the flatness, she looks female.

You do realize that tecnically there is absolutely no difference whatsoever between V appareance and his mate appearance except the hair? The face and the body are absolutely the same. And you do realize that elves ALWAYS have long hairs regardless of gender?

V is flat, just by that he was meant to be a male as Novaseaker explained so well. V is not «flatter then most» absolutely all females in the comic got curvy body, even some other elves and drows or some other girls who wears long robes. I accept the fact that now he has no gender anymore but thats just because people on the forum were confused, Rich meant him to be a guy.

[shaxberd]

I don't really think you can take this panel as being proof of V's gender either way, but if I had to grasp at straws to do so, I would say that it is proof that V is female. Why? Because evil V didn't grow a goatee. And that's it. Like I said, grasping at straws.

[xyzzy]

Vaarsuvius is a sequential hermaphrodite. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite#Sequential_hermaphrodites)

Characters perceive V as male or female because he's technically neither at the moment --- V is just mid-way through a change right now, so there's no discernable gender.

Also explains why non-androgynous elves exist.

[NovaSeaker]

I think different people see V as different gender depending on their "thinking".

If you go by looks alone, V looks more female, and h** mate looks male.

However, if you go by speech, V talks more like a male, and h** mate speaks more femininely.

Personally, I take visual cues more than speech patterns, so I think V is female. Sure, she's flatter than most, but looking at the long hair, and everything else while disregarding the flatness, she looks female.

V's mate... the pony tail and body shape looks male, even with the softer speech.

That's how I feel the second I saw them anyway.

Except I've shown that V is actually visibly male. He does not have a curvy body and his head and eyes are proportioned male. The curvy body and eye placement for females is uniform throughout the strip.

Stating that V doesn't have a curvy body because of his robe is erroneous due to V's naked flat upper chest in the Starmetal dragon lair (Female bodies curve outward directly from the head, they do not go straight down like V's. Male bodies go straight down from the head, like V's.)

Stating that V doesn't have a curvy body because he's supposed to be androgynous is then stating that V is female but looks mannish, which flies in the face of what you just said (that V looks female).

You are right with the "way of thinking" though. I've aways read V's lines with a masculine voice. Unfortunately, my "theory" is backed up with evidence. It's not speculation, it's fact. V is drawn male.

Answering to someone else saying my proof is just speculation, because even I bring up the possibility of "frumpiness", let me just say that I said if you still insist that V is drawn male because he's frumpy, you are then stating that V is the most frumpy and completely flatchested woman on the face of the planet. That's absurd, and is grasping at straws. Thats why I brought it up, to show you just how ridiculous claiming that V is just flatchested is.

[Coidzor]

Anyone brought up the crazed momma bear argument yet?

Yes? Okay then, just checking.

[Keris]

V is drawn male.
Vaarsuvius was originally drawn as a male character, however the character has changed over time. The gender hasn't been confirmed ever since it became an unknown factor, so Rich can change it whenever he wants.


Answering to someone else saying my proof is just speculation, because even I bring up the possibility of "frumpiness", let me just say that I said if you still insist that V is drawn male because he's frumpy, you are then stating that V is the most frumpy and completely flatchested woman on the face of the planet. That's absurd, and is grasping at straws. Thats why I brought it up, to show you just how ridiculous claiming that V is just flatchested is.
To claim that V is drawn male because he's a masculine looking female does not suggest that V is the most flatchested woman on the planet. It claims that he is the most flatchested elf yet seen in the comic, and V's mate may well be similarly flatchested. Until we see V's genitals or we have a direct statement from V or someone else who we can be confident knows for certain what sex V is, we can't be sure either way.
And for the "Elves are not flatchested, look at Lirian" point, she's a wood-elf, while Vaarsuvius is a High Elf. There may well be physiological differences between the different races.

Now, if I may suggest an alternate, mod approved, theory:


There are obviously 2 Varssuvius's, one male and one female, both of which are identical and switch out between panels using elven ninja skills.

This is far more logical than most of the "proof" that people seem to grasping at.

[Kaytara]

NovaSeaker, while your arguments are well thought through, they are completely beside the point.

Yes, V was not initially intended to be androgynous and thus wasn't drawn with androgyny in mind. So, going by your own arguments, if he had been meant to be female Rich would have made it more obvious. So V was intended to be male. I think everyone is aware of this by now.

This does not mean that V IS male. The joke is that we don't know, which means the reality of V's gender is only in Rich's mind right now. V could be male as well as female.

All of the arguments about flat-chestedness and charisma bonuses and the non-curviness of nearly anorexic elves are just there to show that V really COULD be female, that it's not really something that would be difficult to justify or explain judging by the comic. Because we haven't actually seen a robed elf that was specifically confirmed to be female, we don't know how elf females look in robes. We do know, however, how elves in general look, from multiple shots in this comic and more importantly Start of Darkness, and plenty of them look flat enough that none of their curves would be likely to show when wearing a concealing robe.

That's all there is to it. Yes, V was originally intended to be male. But since his gender was never confirmed beyond all doubt, if Rich reveals now that V had been female all along, there would be nothing to directly contradict that. The only thing that comes even close is the glimpse of naked V in the starmetal cave, and even going by that we don't really know for sure what kind of body V has, since it's entirely possible he's female with un-feminine shoulders. A stretch? Possibly. But with the non-definite way Rich has drawn most elves (naturally, I'm including the ones in SoD in this), it would fit.

As for Lirian, why do people keep clinging to that argument like she's some paragon of typical elvishness? Humans have a typical body build, but just because it's inconsistent doesn't mean we use cases of squarish, flat-chested women or frail and fey men in order to prove the general tendency invalid. Why should it be any different for elves? Generally androgynous, with some exceptions here and there?

[Isolder74]

Can't have a powerful good looking evil woman?

I present Maleficent from sleeping beauty.

http://movie-poster.ws/movies/wallpaper/fanart/mike/june/Maleficent_small.jpg

[Mystic Muse]

okay I just want to say a few things about this topic. unless the creator himself reveals V's gender we can't possibly know what it is. my theory is that V is female but I could be entirely wrong. assuming V is straight which has not been established I believe V is female. even if Rich draws the rest of females one way it doesn't mean V has to abide by the same rules. honestly I could draw a manga drawing most males one way and then drawing one as an extremely hot female character. even if most other are drawn one way doesn't mean they HAVE to be drawn like that. my argument for V being a female is that the robe is unfitting and simply shows no curves. also V's mate looks male unless they're the msot flat chested girl in the comic which is actually a POSSIBILITY.


also the argument that V grew no facial hair is irrelevant because elves don't grow facial hair according to the players handbook.

the argument about V's discussion with haley about the crystal balls is irrelevent as well because they weren't talking about breasts they were talking about CRYSTAL BALLS.

and the last argument about V sleeping in the same room as starshine. this is also irrelevant because maybe V has such loyalty to his/her mate that she doesn't care whether or not there's a girl in the room.

in my mind there is a possibility though. "there are two V's one male and one female both of which are identical and they change between panels using secret elven ninja skills"
last off what does it matter what gender V is? V can be whatever gender you choose and arguing over what gender V is is pointless. there hasn't been any actual substantial proof yet so this whole discussion is meaningless

[NovaSeaker]

The elves in SoD are not so slim as to have their curves disappear behind robes.

Let me make it clear, though. I'm at work right now, and I do not have my copy of SoD available to check. But I know this with 100% certainty anyway. Why?

Because the female elves in SoD (if there are any, I can't remember off the top of my head, so I'm not even sure what you're talking about) will have the same body template as every female of every race in the comic. They will have the same curves, because Rich's art design is so brilliantly simplistic that he uses the same body shape over and over.

So since these female elves in SoD will have the same curves as female humans, we need only look to Azure City and look at their female casters (Sawang? I forget her name). Their curves are visible beneath their robes.

There has never been a female body type with a flat chest and round bottom. All females are curved, and all men are boxes. It's just the way Rich draws them.

Also, V's robes have nothing to do with hiding his physical sex. We've seen V's flat chest before. He's drawn male.

[Kaytara]

Um, sorry, you're mistaken. The elves in SoD aren't drawn with the "typical" female (or male) body templates. :smallconfused: In fact, they are drawn with UNIQUE body templates.
Almost all of the archer elves have very subtly visible breasts. One is flat chested but has the same general shape. They ARE curvy, but the curves are far, far less pronounced than with humans.
If we assume that the frontliners are men, then you may notice that they have squarish rectangular bodies but still rounded edges.

As for V's square shoulders... If a male elf can have a rectangular body but feminine hips, then I don't see why a female Vaarsuvius couldn't have a subtly feminine body but non-feminine shoulders.

For the fun of it, I'd like to submit a new "theory" on V's gender, or rather, lack of it. :)

V is androgynous because he is, either a lot younger than he claims or simply a late bloomer, and is actually still a teenager with but the subtlest hints of secondary sexual characteristics.

V is going through puberty right now.

Which should explain a lot. XD

[Aaron]

For the fun of it, I'd like to submit a new "theory" on V's gender, or rather, lack of it. :)

V is androgynous because he is, either a lot younger than he claims or simply a late bloomer, and is actually still a teenager with but the subtlest hints of secondary sexual characteristics.

V is going through puberty right now.

Which should explain a lot. XD

I like this theory. I would explain a lot about V being stubborn. But what about V having adopted children?:smallconfused:

[Mystic Muse]

simple explanation for v having adopted children. two actually. one elvish culture is different from human culture and two this is a fantasy world where literally anything can happen if Rich wants it to. if he wants he can bring an ewok jedi into the next comic to slaughter belkar and turn him into mush

[Kaytara]

I like this theory. I would explain a lot about V being stubborn. But what about V having adopted children?:smallconfused:

As said, elven culture. Suppose that trying your hand at raising small children is a traditional elven teenage rite of passage in order to direct the energy from those raging hormones into something useful. :) Which should also explain why V's mate is only an apprentice baker...

[Dairun Cates]

Which should also explain why V's mate is only an apprentice baker...

Hey. Baking is some hard stuff. You try getting that loaf of bread to the perfect flaky texture on the outside with that sumptuous soft inner crust EVERY FREAKIN' TIME!

No. I dare say Baking is something it takes YEARS AND YEARS to learn.

[Aaron]

As said, elven culture. Suppose that trying your hand at raising small children is a traditional elven teenage rite of passage in order to direct the energy from those raging hormones into something useful. :) Which should also explain why V's mate is only an apprentice baker...

Good point. So V probably only adopted the children a few years ago. Most likely a year or two before V left to learn the ways of magic from Aarindarius.

[Kaytara]

Good point. So V probably only adopted the children a few years ago. Most likely a year or two before V left to learn the ways of magic from Aarindarius.

Looks like you haven't read Origins. I agree that Vaarsuvius probably adopted the children only a decade or so ago (I wish they were just a bit older, because then one would be able to connect the time they were orphaned to the attack on the elven village in SoD...), but Origins shows that V became apprenticed to Aarindarius very early, at the age of 43, possibly earlier. And these 26-year-olds are kindergarteners, so a 40-year-old V would probably be the equivalent of an 8-year-old or something...

[Sequinox]

I have no idea what Vaarsuvius is... my trusty coin is far more decisive than I am so let me just flip her.

Umm... it would appear V is a male.

That... Is the best answer ever.

[Aaron]

Looks like you haven't read Origins. I agree that Vaarsuvius probably adopted the children only a decade or so ago (I wish they were just a bit older, because then one would be able to connect the time they were orphaned to the attack on the elven village in SoD...), but Origins shows that V became apprenticed to Aarindarius very early, at the age of 43, possibly earlier. And these 26-year-olds are kindergarteners, so a 40-year-old V would probably be the equivalent of an 8-year-old or something...

You're right. I haven't read Origins, yet. V probably adopted the kids while still learning the ways of magic from Aarindarius.

[archon_huskie]

The closest we have ever gotten to seeing V's gender is in OtOoPC. If you use the height and weight given on V's application to the OotS, and reverse calculate the numbers via character creation, you discover that a male elf cannot have the height and weight V gives (because the dice simple cannot roll that outcome), but a female elf can.

That's the closest we have to proof of V's gender.
But this also meaningless evidence because it assumes that V still weighs the same she did at character creation.

[CrimsonAngel]

We can now establish that V is in fact male. But what is my evidence for this, I hear you cry? I will enumerate.

1) V is awesome.
2) If you look at Evil!V and see a Long Haired Prettyboy, he looks awesome and badass.
3) If you look at Evil!V and see a woman, she looks like a complete and utter female canine.

Clearly, therefore, Evil!V, being awesome, must be a Long Haired Prettyboy, therefore V is male.

QED.

So now only men are awsome? And you think prettyboys are awsome? *walks away*

[bdh5533]

i would like to think that V's refusal to fail makes V decidely Male. rich's drawings do not in anyway lend themselves to determining V's gender

[Optimystik]

i would like to think that V's refusal to fail makes V decidely Male. rich's drawings do not in anyway lend themselves to determining V's gender

Because women (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html) give up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0108.html) all the time, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) right?

[tashiun]

I just want to throw in my twopence. I think that if V ends up being Male!V, then I find it hilarious that Belkar macked him.

I mean, macking a guy is the last thing I'd imagine him doing. XD

[Optimystik]

I mean, macking a guy is the last thing I'd imagine him doing. XD

Missed a few strips? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0244.html) :smallamused:

[TheSummoner]

Yeah, but Belkar was only doing that because he wanted to gross Roy out, he wasn't being serious.

Besides, Belkar was so drunk that his drunk-lust took priority over his not-knowing-what-the-elfs-gender-is.

[Kobrag]

Reasons for V bieng a woman, even if it disapoints me.

1) The giant pink 'Chalice' symbol...
2) Sleeps alongside Haley.
3) Belkar lusts her.
But PLEASE, prove me wrong.

[Optimystik]

But PLEASE, prove me wrong.

As you wish. :smallwink:


Reasons for V bieng a woman, even if it disapoints me.

1) The giant pink 'Chalice' symbol...

Pink isn't gender-specific in OotS. In this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html), Pompey's magic is pink (a known male) while Julia's is green (a known female.) Similarly, Aarindarius has pink hair but is referred to with masculine terms both in the regular comic and in OtOoPCs.


2) Sleeps alongside Haley.

They were friends before the Order was formed. His insistence on sharing a room with Haley isn't (only) motivated by gender - Miko is also a woman but V doesn't want to room with her. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0225.html)


3) Belkar lusts her.

Belkar wasn't in his right mind at the time of the kiss and certainly made no subsequent overtures. Our only source for the halfling's "lust" is V's own outdated theory - a theory which wasn't even proven correct back when it DID apply.

[Assassin89]

Have we considered the direct approach (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GroinAttack) before coming to these conclusions?

[Zanaril]

Have we considered the direct approach (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GroinAttack) before coming to these conclusions?

Ah, but as that page also mentions, getting kicked in the groin does hurt females as well, so even then we wouldn't know.

[Tessa]

But PLEASE, prove me wrong.

I'll try.

I was just re-reading some of the early episodes and I am pretty sure that V is at least originally meant to be a male.

In #9, Roy refers to V as "V-Man" in passing.

It wasn't a joke or anything, it was just a nickname that Roy tossed out. This was before there was any mention of V's gender too.

To me, this indicates that the Giant originally meant for V to be male. After a few readers asked about the elf's gender, he realized that it would be a good running gag so he vagued it up.

[BillyJimBoBob]

As said, elven culture. Suppose that trying your hand at raising small children is a traditional elven teenage rite of passage in order to direct the energy from those raging hormones into something useful. :) Which should also explain why V's mate is only an apprentice baker...Hey, don't put down baking. Baking is a very difficult skill. I cook, but I do not bake. Cooking is art, baking is science. I can (and do) open the fridge and make something out of whatever I find, but baking requires exact measurements or it fails hard. Given that I refuse to use a recipe and therefore never repeat a meal twice, baking is not something I'm ever going to be good at.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Can't have a powerful good looking evil woman?

I present Maleficent from sleeping beauty.

http://movie-poster.ws/movies/wallpaper/fanart/mike/june/Maleficent_small.jpgSooooo sexy!

[BillyJimBoBob]

Have we considered the direct approach (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GroinAttack) before coming to these conclusions?That's not a fool proof method, as being kicked anywhere is painful to both men and women, and being kicked in the groin is extra painful to both men and women.

But, Crocodile Dundee did have a method which, the two times he employed it, did the trick nicely.