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MustacheFart
2009-03-04, 10:11 PM
Hello,


I'm playing in a campaign and recently I found out from the DM, we will be going against A LOT of DEMONS and DEVILS for what I assume is the rest of the campaign. We are running gestalt characters also.

That said, I am wondering what Classes and PrCs (or builds) would make for a truly awesome gestalt demon & devil slayer.

We are using a 32-point buy, evil characters are out(thus so are evil classes/PrCs), and we have all books open. Right now, the only things I have locked down are that I would like to be a Human, avoid anything really cheesy, and avoid anything too complicated (versatility would probably be a good thing). I don't mind using ToB but if you suggest something with it, please explain why (ie. what you gain, why to take ___ , etc).

Right now I was considering some type of Ranged Character (Ranger, Ranged Fighter, etc). My DM stated that if I go Ranger instead of Spell Casting I could get full Animal Companion Progression and that I could take a Nightmare as my Animal Companion (I like nightmares :smallbiggrin:). I could always have a casting class on my gestalt side and go something like Arcane Archer I dunno. I am open to any suggestions are at all. This was just an idea I'm considering.

Thanks in advance,

-MustacheFart

Olo Demonsbane
2009-03-04, 10:52 PM
Ranger//Scout.

Get Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish for OODLES of Skirmish.

What level would you be?

MustacheFart
2009-03-04, 10:58 PM
Oh snap! I knew I forgot something! Sorry, we are 6th level!

-To your suggestion: I guess I wouldn't have to deal much with enemies being immune to skirmish (ala fortification or whatnot)?

FinalJustice
2009-03-04, 11:06 PM
Ranger/Scout (with Swift Hunter) \\ Cleric seems better. You get Skirmish and the whole utility package from being a cleric. If you are feeling nasty, with Travel Devotion you can make a move action as a swift action (burn a turn attempt, lasts 1 min IIRC). Then you can make Full Attack with Skirmish on every single attack. Cast Hunter's Eye (PHB II) to score some extra Sneak Attack dice (1/3 CL) for overkill.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-03-04, 11:07 PM
Oh snap! I knew I forgot something! Sorry, we are 6th level!

-To your suggestion: I guess I wouldn't have to deal much with enemies being immune to skirmish (ala fortification or whatnot)?Swift Hunter allows you to Skirmish those who are your Favored Enemies even if they are immune, and stacks Ranger and Scout levels for Favored Enemies and Skirmish, meaning you can Skirmish Evil Outsiders no matter how many spells and Armor they have that says you can't. That said, I'd go Cleric 20//Ranger 16/Scout 4. At your level it will be Cleric 6//Ranger 2/Scout 4. Take Travel Devotion, Improved Skirmish, and Swift Hunter. Travel Devotion doesn't kick in until level 7, but it is nice for any Scout. This build really takes off at level 7, when you get 6 BAB for Skirmishing Full-Atacks, and 4th level spells for Cleric Buffs. You'll want a Holy Longbow(eventually Splitting, Ancestreal Weapon helps a lot) soon(and Outsider-bane Arrows), but until WBL takes off, you're still fairly capable.

Knaight
2009-03-04, 11:11 PM
There is a prestige class called knight of the chalice or something, in what I believe is complete warrior, they seem decent for this sort of campaign.

AslanCross
2009-03-04, 11:21 PM
Ideas if you can use ToB:

-Ranger//Warblade or Swordsage, especially if you want to do TWF. The favored enemy bonus is going to stack up a lot. As a bonus, ranger ranged martial weapon proficiency, which ToB classes lack. Stone Dragon maneuvers can bust through the DR you'll be coming up against.

-Ranger//Cleric if you want to go into archery. It'd be even cooler if you're a cleric of a war deity who favors the longbow. The Ordained Champion PrC (Complete Champ) allows you to channel spells into your attacks. The class itself says melee, but with DM approval you could have that changed to longbow since that is your deity's favored weapon.

-Crusader//Cleric. You get the spells from the cleric, you rock in melee, and you'll have a lot of good maneuvers to smash outsiders with.

MustacheFart
2009-03-05, 01:02 AM
but until WBL takes off, you're still fairly capable.

Forgive my ignorance but WBL?

Also is Cleric 20//Ranger 16/Scout 4 any different from Ranger 16/Scout4//Cleric 20? I'm still new to Gestalts. Also no prestige classes to increase effectivity? I guess you probably don't need them.


One thing I did find out that I wasn't aware of. Moving while on a mount doesn't count for scout's skirmish so, that would knock out such a build as I think we are going to be a pretty mount heavy party.

What would be another possible good gestalt for such a campaign? What would make a good build that utilizes Knight of the Chalice (after looking at it, it does seem nice).

Thanks again,

paigeoliver
2009-03-05, 01:41 AM
Phil I'd suggest simply taking ranger into knight of the Chalice on your primary side. That will rock out against what you will be fighting and the other side of the equation won't even matter much (stuff to consider, Marshall and cleric). Heck, take ranger and knight of the chalice at the same time.

Wizard one side and arcane archer the other is also great.

Pure fighter archer on one side, with druid on the other could be really nasty too.

Also, Slayer from the Pirate Kingdom's book is a meh class on it's own but is great for Gestalt, and have evil outsider specific abilities. That as primary, with secondary being Ranger into Knight would be really good. It has favored enemy stuff vs. evil outsiders and undead that stacks with ranger, it can eventually auto overcome outsider and undead dr, and crit them, and eventually gains DR against them.

MustacheFart
2009-03-05, 02:44 AM
Wasn't a slayer what Josh played in your pirate isles campaign? If so, and if I played it anything like how he did, then we'd have two poofters in the game, a spiked chain fighter and a Rainbow the Mummy Hunter Slayer lol.

Honestly, I'm thinking at this point I will keep my character I have. I'll just change him to Ranger/Knight of the Chalice but keep all my gestalt how it is. I kind of like the flavor that adds (specifically the bloodline) to a Lawful Good character lol. I mean if I found out what exactly happened to my character after I was "hit" by that explosion, can you say inner conflict? :smallbiggrin:

Nevertheless, if anyone has a possible good build for such a campaign please feel free to suggest it. :)

Adumbration
2009-03-05, 02:54 AM
Hellreaver from Fiendish Codex II. It was meant to bust into hell and back, and it will rock your socks. Take 5 levels of any full BaB class, and go straight to that. You'll gain massive boni against evil outsiders, Mettle, and healing. Take levels of Paladin for extra Charisma goodness.

Narmoth
2009-03-05, 03:38 AM
Take a look at Fiendish Codex II and the prestige classes there. They're all good really, with the hellreaver definitely being the mightiest melee, but the hellfire warlock being pretty awesome as well.

MustacheFart
2009-03-05, 03:57 AM
Hellreaver from Fiendish Codex II. It was meant to bust into hell and back, and it will rock your socks. Take 5 levels of any full BaB class, and go straight to that. You'll gain massive boni against evil outsiders, Mettle, and healing. Take levels of Paladin for extra Charisma goodness.

Yep, after having looked it up due to your recommendation, I DEFINATELY love that PrC lol. That is definately hossed out and would really help the party. The only thing though, is it seems to be melee focused. I mean technically-speaking only the Call to Judgement ability/attack specifically states that it must be done with a melee attack. The Furious Strike ability says "Your blade crackles with a divine aura that is baneful to your foes," which obviously implies melee but could be interpreted differently (ie. thrown weapons have blades and even arrows have blades--just small ones).

How about this for a gestalt build (not sure if its possible/legal):

Human LG
Paladin 5/Hell Reaver 10/____5*//Ranger 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5/____6*

*Not sure what to take for the last 5 levels on main side or last 6 levels on gestalt side

EDIT: Actually, what about Paladin 5/Hell Reaver 10/Knight of the Chalice 5//Ranger 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5/Ranger 6-11

That would net me: Cha to Saves(pally), 3 Favored Enemies, Combat Style Mastery(ranger 11), a special mount, an animal companion, and all the special class abilities.

EDIT 2: For feats I've got so far:

Power Attack (Human Bonus)
Point Blank Shot(Flaw 1 & BSB pre-req)
Martial Study(1st)*
Martial Stance(3rd)*
Weapon Focus[**](6th - pre-req. for MT)
Precise Shot(9th - pre-req. for MT)
Divine Might(12th - wish I could take sooner but not possible without a 1 level dip which I don't want to do)
Farshot/Exotic Wep. Prof(15th)
Exotic Wep. Prof/Farshot(18th)

*I need to know what stance and maneuver to pick, as I'm not sure. I took the feats because it avoids excessive use of ToB which is preferred.

**I'm not sure what's the best 2hander to use. Obviously with weapon apptitude I can switch it daily but I should pick a favored weapon. I see this guy using a big bludgeoning weapon of some sorts...a falchion just doesn't seem right.

Strategy:

Use weapon to deliver strong melee attacks until I reach BSM 4 and can then make full round attacks throwing same weapon.

AslanCross
2009-03-05, 05:56 AM
Since you need Iron Heart to qualify for Bloodstorm Blade, I suggest Steel Wind, as it's the only maneuver worth taking at level 1. Punishing Stance is the only stance you qualify for at Level 3.

MustacheFart
2009-03-05, 07:04 AM
The only problem I am facing now, is the friggin 8 ranks of balance pre-req. for BSB. What's that feat to add a skill as class? I assume taking another flaw and getting it would be easiest way without dipping.

Nevermind, I forgot Martial Study makes Balance a class skill for me.

hewhosaysfish
2009-03-05, 08:18 AM
I'm playing in a campaign and recently I found out from the DM, we will be going against A LOT of DEMONS and DEVILS for what I assume is the rest of the campaign.

.....


My DM stated that if I go Ranger ... I could take a Nightmare as my Animal Companion

Does anyone else predict that this could end in... uh... fun and games?

MustacheFart
2009-03-05, 08:36 AM
Lol, well the nightmare was before I was going to be Lawful Good. After that point, yah, not going to be taking an evil animal companion lol!

MustacheFart
2009-03-05, 09:53 AM
Since you need Iron Heart to qualify for Bloodstorm Blade, I suggest Steel Wind, as it's the only maneuver worth taking at level 1. Punishing Stance is the only stance you qualify for at Level 3.

What if I switched weapon focus and Martial Study(or Martial Stance), putting Martial Study(or Martial Stance) as my 6th level feat? Would that offer up a better maneuver/stance?

EDIT: Actually, if I took Martial Study at 6th level it would let me take Wall of Blades which I think would come waaay more in handy. If I recall correctly you can take a feat that is a prerequisite for a PrC at the same level in which you enter said PrC.

Ashes
2009-03-05, 01:10 PM
If I recall correctly you can take a feat that is a prerequisite for a PrC at the same level in which you enter said PrC.

You can't. You choose the class to take a level in, before you choose any other features on that level. You can't enter a prestige class without having the prequisites, so you never get the chance to move on to choosing feats.

MustacheFart
2009-03-05, 01:21 PM
You can't. You choose the class to take a level in, before you choose any other features on that level. You can't enter a prestige class without having the prequisites, so you never get the chance to move on to choosing feats.

Ahh, well I thought since the feat came via character level (not from a class) you could. For that matter, what about when you get two feats at same level and you use both for 2 feats in a chain(one feat requiring the other in order to take it). I was always told you could do that...*shrug*

For example, say you are a Rogue 2/Fighter 4. You receive two feats at 6th level, one from fighter 4 and one from being 6th level. You couldn't then use both feats to pick up weapon focus AND weapon spec(which requires fighter 4 and wep focus)?


Nevertheless, I can just take Martial Study at 1st level like I originally had it, get the crappy level 1 maneuver, and qualify for the PrC. Not like I intended to really use the maneuvers much.

Ashes
2009-03-05, 02:15 PM
Ahh, well I thought since the feat came via character level (not from a class) you could. For that matter, what about when you get two feats at same level and you use both for 2 feats in a chain(one feat requiring the other in order to take it). I was always told you could do that...*shrug*

For example, say you are a Rogue 2/Fighter 4. You receive two feats at 6th level, one from fighter 4 and one from being 6th level. You couldn't then use both feats to pick up weapon focus AND weapon spec(which requires fighter 4 and wep focus)?


Nevertheless, I can just take Martial Study at 1st level like I originally had it, get the crappy level 1 maneuver, and qualify for the PrC. Not like I intended to really use the maneuvers much.

There is no restriction on the order of feats taken. You take one feat first, then the other. However, you need to take your class before anything else. For example, how would you find out how many hit points you had? Or skill points for that matter, if you chose to allocate them, before choosing a class? Class first, then everything else.

AslanCross
2009-03-05, 05:46 PM
What if I switched weapon focus and Martial Study(or Martial Stance), putting Martial Study(or Martial Stance) as my 6th level feat? Would that offer up a better maneuver/stance?

EDIT: Actually, if I took Martial Study at 6th level it would let me take Wall of Blades which I think would come waaay more in handy. If I recall correctly you can take a feat that is a prerequisite for a PrC at the same level in which you enter said PrC.

Martial Study is a prerequisite for Martial Stance, though. You have to take it first.

Renegade Paladin
2009-03-05, 05:47 PM
Word of caution: If your DM is employing the Fiendish Codices, watch your back from the first time you cross the devils until the day your character dies. As one of the cute little quotations they like to start sections with reads, "When you attack one demon, you attack a single creature. When you attack one devil, you attack them all." If he's playing them by the book, they will not only be nasty, but they'll be vengeful, clever, and deceitful. Especially deceitful. Whatever your build is, try to get a healthy number of ranks of Sense Motive into it, because if they can't manage to make a public example out of you, they'll do their best to subvert you, or at least slip a dagger in your back.

If you can swing being allowed to use the Rebalanced Paladin, (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045) then I highly recommend doing so. It's comparable power-wise to the Tome of Battle classes, and has the proper skill list for this sort of thing. If Forgotten Realms books are open, take Knight of Tyr's Holy Judgment (Champions of Valor, p 32). It does several things for you, but the important one is that it causes detect evil to tell you which of the auras are devils in the second round in addition to its normal information. The best part? At high levels, the rebalanced pally's detect evil is 360 degrees around you and always on, so all you have to do is concentrate for a round to know if there are devils about if you combine with the feat. The onerous part on point buy is that Knight of Tyr's Holy Judgment requires INT 13. The Divine Justice feat (Tyrants of the Nine Hells, p 83) could also be handy if you choose this route.

MustacheFart
2009-03-06, 12:33 PM
There is no restriction on the order of feats taken. You take one feat first, then the other. However, you need to take your class before anything else. For example, how would you find out how many hit points you had? Or skill points for that matter, if you chose to allocate them, before choosing a class? Class first, then everything else.

Well, my original thought was: take Martial Study at 6th(before I take my class level as feat is based on character level), get the better maneuver, and qualify for the PrC I start taking that level (6th level). As to the 8 ranks in balance also required by the PrC, since I don't have balance as a class skill until lvl 6th(when I take Martial Study), I'll just put 8 points in cross class before then, netting me 4 ranks and then I'll retrain 4 ranks at level 6(retraining from PHBII). I don't need to worry about using anything from the actual PrC yet because I'm using skill ranks from previous levels (retrained them) and a feat I get at 6th level regardless of what class I take.

Like I said, those were my original thoughts on how I could qualify to take BSB at 6th level. TBH, I still don't see why you can't use a feat aquired at character level to qualify for a PrC taken at the same level, assuming you meet all the other requirements. I mean the feat you get is totally independant of your class or PrC as the case may be. The same goes for retraining skill points. They are from previous levels so, I don't see the problem with it.

I accept now that you have to pick your class or PrC before you do anything else. I accept that as the rule but that doesn't mean I truly understand it or think it makes any real sense.

I mean if you can take two feats such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. at the same exact time when Wep. Spec. requires Wep. Focus, I just don't see why you can't take a feat to meet a prereq. for a PrC taken at the same level. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Oh well, back to my build. None of the above matters anyway as AslanCross just pointed out to me, Martial Study is a prereq. for Martial Stance.

None of its that big of a deal. I was just looking for a more useable maneuver.


I do have one question, just to make sure I understand this right. Let's say you have a PrC that we'll call Test PrC A that you want to take. Test PrC A has prereqs of Feat A, Feat B, Feat C, and BAB 5.

Now as an ELF you take, let's say, regular paladin (no varients) as a base class for 5 levels netting you 2 feats (1st level and third level) and a BAB of 5. You spend the two feats on Feat A and Feat B.

That means you won't be able to take Test PrC A at 6th level because you don't have Feat C, even though you get a faet at 6th level and could spend it on Feat C? Basically, what I am asking is, with such a PrC the earliest you could take a level in it, would be 7th level unless you were human or acquired feats elsewhere, at which point you still couldn't take a level in it until 6th level due to BAB 5 prereq, right?

Falling Out
2009-03-06, 02:37 PM
From SRD I believe there is a Turn Undead Variant that banishes/destroys Evil Outsiders rather than turning undead. It does not work if you are on their plane however...

It may be getting toward cheesy though if evil outsider heavy.

MustacheFart
2009-03-06, 03:05 PM
Word of caution: If your DM is employing the Fiendish Codices, watch your back from the first time you cross the devils until the day your character dies. As one of the cute little quotations they like to start sections with reads, "When you attack one demon, you attack a single creature. When you attack one devil, you attack them all." If he's playing them by the book, they will not only be nasty, but they'll be vengeful, clever, and deceitful. Especially deceitful. Whatever your build is, try to get a healthy number of ranks of Sense Motive into it, because if they can't manage to make a public example out of you, they'll do their best to subvert you, or at least slip a dagger in your back.

If you can swing being allowed to use the Rebalanced Paladin, (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045) then I highly recommend doing so. It's comparable power-wise to the Tome of Battle classes, and has the proper skill list for this sort of thing. If Forgotten Realms books are open, take Knight of Tyr's Holy Judgment (Champions of Valor, p 32). It does several things for you, but the important one is that it causes detect evil to tell you which of the auras are devils in the second round in addition to its normal information. The best part? At high levels, the rebalanced pally's detect evil is 360 degrees around you and always on, so all you have to do is concentrate for a round to know if there are devils about if you combine with the feat. The onerous part on point buy is that Knight of Tyr's Holy Judgment requires INT 13. The Divine Justice feat (Tyrants of the Nine Hells, p 83) could also be handy if you choose this route.


I'm not so sure on the whole rebalanced paladin. I do like the Divine Justice feat a lot though.

I recently found out you can't have 2 PrCs at the same time in a Gestalt-- meaning no Bloodstorm Blade on my gestalt side while I'm taking Hellreaver on my main side. Basically, I had to choose between my main side and my thrower side. I decided to forgo my thrower side.

So, right now I am looking at a Paladin 5/Hellreaver 10/Knight of the Chalice 5//Human Paragon 3/*something*bloodline 3/*blank*. Since many of the abilities are per melee attack, I think it may be a good idea to go a TWF route. Any ideas for the 16 levels on my gestalt side?

Also, I've heard of Paladin's riding Pegasi before. How is this possible? Or, I should say, what would I need to be able to ride one?

Renegade Paladin
2009-03-06, 06:32 PM
The DMG has rules for alternate mounts. I believe that for a pegasus you have to delay getting your mount until paladin level 6, but it might be 7.

And I say you should at least ask your DM about it. I mean, if he's already letting you do Tome of Battle gestalt, it's not like it's going to break anything any further. :smalltongue: